0. Update notes
February 24th 2014
* updated the tournament report section
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
I think my message had an error.Originally Posted by max_goblin
But anyway, I would like to know your oppinions about the questions above gobbolord,
Thankyou!
Anyone see the Thalia Goblins that went BRW and did well recently? Interesting list.
Anyone have some thoughts?
“There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle".
- Albert Einstein
On the number of spotremoval:
I think that Goblins can do well with any number of 4-8 spotremoval in MD, whereas 4 or 5 removalspells is more common, and you rarely will find lists with more than 7. However, that's what most people do - I however am also in favor of more spotremoval . So why did I run only 5 (I don't count Lightning Crafter as a real removal spells, since he is not very good in getting past early blockers)? My MD is ver tightly packed and I would not know which card to cut. In fact if I am playing with Chrome Moxen, I am hesitant to play even more removal since this would both effectively reduce the number of goblin creatures that I can put into play with Vial/Lackey/WIntigator.
AFter evaluating the performance of every single card in the MD I have reached the conclusion that I need more spotremoval (which is just what you are telling me) and that Gempalm Incinerator is (very much like Lightning Crafter) not the kind of removal I am looking for righ now. I think the NUMBER of removalspells is just fine, but I need more EFFECTIVE removal for Squires. My new removal-suite will be:
1 Gempalm, 1 Werding, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Sparksmith, 2 Tarfire
or stated differently
-1 Gempalm is replaced with +1 Tarfire and -1 Lightning Crafter is replaced with +1 Sparksmith
I am especially curious about Sparksmith, which I think will be a good replacement for Lightning Crafter (their abilities are quite similar in function, with the major advantage that I don't need to champion a creature and that it only costs 2 mana). Even on T1 out of a Chrome Mox + Land, Sparksmith can be very good at controlling the board in early game.
What do you think?
On the Human/Werewolf Stompy MU:
I agree with you that a good share of his strategy (namely 8 Moon effects + 8 of his lock-artifacts) are totally in-effective against GOblins. However, In both games he had Early Phyrexian Revoker, shutting down Vial and Chrome Mox, followed by a Umezawa's Jitte. I lost game 1 because I couldn't find my 4th manasource on time (had Tuktuk Scrapper and 2 RIngleaders in hand and a Vial at 4 counter which got "Revoker-ed".
In game 2 he shut down my offense with a T1 Hanweir Watchkeep, which was to large for my Tarfire. He manascrewed me with Revoker naming Chrome Mox and beat me with the flipped Werewolf-HUman equipped wit Jitte.
On Mogg War Marshal
I did not miss MWM. I think he is best when you are in a defensive-mode and you try to develop a board-position (which would be the case against RUG Threshold). In the matches I played in the past 5 moths I never missed MWM. If I were to play him it would probably replace Warren Instigator - but I am way too happy with WInstigator, so there won't be any MWM in my list in near future.
On Aether Vial
Some weeks ago we had a discussion about the match-ups where you can board out Vial after G1. Apart from the obvious combo-matchups (ANT, Sneak Show) or matchups in which VIal is usually too slow (ELves) we talked about boarding it out against decks that try get you with card-disadvantage aka. discard spells (e.g. Jund, especially PUNISHING Jund), since Vial itself gives you card dis-advantage. So, I experimented a little with boarding out Vials in matchups where I wasn't sure how good it actually was (Punishing Maverick, Painted Stone, Team America, Thespian Rock), and I learned that this was oftentimes not the right thing to do. While Aether VIal isn't particulary AWSOME against Painted Stone and Thespian Rock (just picking 2 examples here), none of my sideboard cards is good enough to bring in vs. these deck - even less so in favor of Aether Vial.
Reflecting on the past 4-5 tournaments here is a list with my matchups - I marked the MUs where I boarded Vial out in bold and the color red indicates the matches where I figured out it was wrong or doubtful.
UR Young Pyromancer Delver
Elves
BG something (I better had boarded them out, but I didn't)
Elves
Jund (I better had boarded them out, but I didn't)
Spanish Inquisition
Patriot
Punishing Maverick
BG something
TinFins
Ubw Faeries
ANT
UR Young Delver
Pox
TES
Imperial Painter
Sneak Show
ANT
UBG Deedstill
ANT
12 Post
Human/Werewolf Stompy
Punishing Maverick
Death & Taxes
Deathblade
Thespian Rock
Last edited by GoboLord; 02-25-2014 at 06:52 AM.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
I would also like to hear people's comments on this list. It is the first time I have seen anyone combine black and white as splash colors (that I've seen).
Here's the list:
Goblins
Kevin Deffenbaugh
13th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 2/23/2014
Creatures (29)
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Lands (22)
2 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Plateau
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
Spells (9)
4 Aether Vial
3 Tarfire
2 Warren Weirding
Sideboard
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Rest in Peace
2 Wear // Tear
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Perish
Obviously the manabase worked out fairly well for him or he wouldn't have gotten 13th out of 390 players.
Against combo, he has 4 maindeck cards (Thalia). And 6 more in the board (swapping out 5 removal and 1 Vial against Storm combo, I'm guessing).
Maindeck Weirdings help against Reanimator and the Show part of Sneak + Show.
Perish, Relic, and RiP hurt the green midrange decks... I wonder if Therapy was used as an answer for TNN.
Very happy to see this. Mainly because I think there are some issues here.
- It always depends on your build. If I'm running 3-4 Ports alonw with Wastes, and my SB consist of hate cards like Thalia/Thorn/CotV, I leave Vial in agains AnT. If you're on the Winstigator build, it may very well be correct to take them out.
- I'm not a fan of siding Vial out against any BGx decks at all. I know we need the C.A., but Vial is an outstanding card against grindy decks, and in my experience, whenever they don't destroy it (and you don't draw 3-4 of them), you're in good shape. Apart from Jund, other BGx decks have very, very few removal, so if they use Decay on Vial, they lack removal for your threads. To be honest, the hands I like the most to see against these decks is something like 4 lands, MWM, Matron, something. Land heavy are great here, since discard usually takes care of the Ringleader/Matron on your oppening hand (against a good opponent at least). Then you just need to topdeck something cool and win.
- Agree on every match you thought it was bad to side out Vial
- Guess the same argument made on the AnT scenario can be made on the 12Post one and Sneak/Show.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
@Gobbolord: I dont know if you saw the other post I wrote about a complete different list.
About Sparksmith: In fact, I think that sparksmith work in the same spot that gempalm works.
And yes, T1 Sparksmith can be a nightmare too, with not answered fast, dont get me wrong, T1 Lackey or WI are better in most case scenarios, but against blade and elves, if they dont kill your sparksmith, they simply cant do anything. You will kill their T1 delver, elf or even SFM, so I really like this idea.
About Vial: Before, when i played goblins, the best hand against most part of the field was lackey, but T1 vial was very good too, and in some cases, even better, because our second plan, waste + port was very good. But today.. I played against BUG this days, with vial turn 1, double waste + 1 port.. and believe, I lost bad.. he simply used my wastelands to feed his DRS, while AD my vial, then you know what happens. Mana denial dont work at all these days.. If I would play vial, I would keep 3 MD, at max, lower the Port+Waste, and try to be more aggressive + removals. If we lose close to the meta right now, we never had a meta that rely so hard on creatures, actually, they need more creatures than lands! Even barbarian ring sees like a possible land this days (just kidding, but I guess I will try it, just to see).
About MWM: The funny thing about MWM is that he and WI really play for the same spot. But their game plan is different, and I agree if your understanding about this subject. The best part about this is the following: MWM make sparksmith worst, because the most part of the time you want spaksmith to take small creatures from the table, not the big ones. And WI cant use Gempalm correct, but he can drop sparksmith.. So yeah, I really think that, when you play WI, we should try to play more sparksmith over gempalm.
About Rwb builds: WW is really a good card, and most of the time, better than stingscouger, i like it. Thalia MD is the only way our deck can fight while using the plan of mana denial, because waste+port isnt enought anymore in legacy =/
Cya
and thankyou for you sharings!
(and sorry about the bad english, I wrote in a hurry).
Wow, I didn't see your list on the last page, but that list indeed has several elements which I find good (like, as you said, the removal package and 3 Chrome Moxen in MD). Thanks for the feedback on Sparksmith, I'm looking forward to turn this guy sideways. =) However, cutting Gempalm to 0 feels awkward. Although it makes sense if we accept that what we just talked about is correct. My argument to keep one copy in the deck would be: to have the option to tutor it up when you need counter-proof removal and/or you have enough mana to choose Gempalm over Tarfire and you will profit from the card-draw out of cycling (which happens once in while).
I agree with you on the effectivenss of manadenial. Deathrite Shaman makes Wastelands and Ports so much worse - this adds up to the fact that everyone and his mother is playing very good manacurves, peaking at cmc2. So, yes, decks do indeed need only few lands lately. However, this does not make Aether Vial completely obsolete. Sure, Vial is pretty good when you can slow-roll and charge your Vial whil working on your opponents mana. But Vial does more than that, which is exactly what I was reminded of in the last tournament. We really need the card against a lot of decks to remain explosive and suprising. I thought about cutting it entirely too, due to card dis-advantage issues, which add up in Chrome-Mox builds. But then I discarded the idea again, because, you know, I used to run 3 Pyrokinesis in MD and rarely had issues with CDA.
@ ScatmanX:
Thanks for the feedback, it was very insightful. So, if I got it right you are saying that, against BGx decks, I should only board out Vial when they have lots of discard AND removal?
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Well, not actually. I ment to say that it is better against BGx few removal deck, but I'd still not side out against something like Punishing Jund, though that is a very tricky matchup and I do see the reasoning for taking it out. But against P.Jund I prefer to side out Instigators, Piledriver, random goblins or Stingscourger.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
That Rwb list is sweet. He relies on Thalia instead of Port, and by cutting Port he made room for more fetches (8!) and the B splash. Weirding is strong right now. I feel like not having Gempalm weakens the CA game, but maybe running Wort instead of SGC #2 would help with that. Except we all know Wort sucks. Great sideboard as well. Seriously, really nice SB. I also like how he eschewed utility goblins and just ran 3 bombs and a bunch of haste lords.
Greetings everyone, it's time for a tournament report! I went 2-2 with the same list I played last time (R/B).
R1 RUG Delver 2-0
G1 My hand after a mulligan to six was pretty meh, but playable. I played a Mogg War Marshal on turn two and after a while I was able to gempalm my opponents Delver and Warren Weirding his goyf.
G2 Chalice did a lot of work.
R2 BUG Delver 1-2
G1 Double Deathrite + Goyf do a lot of work while I'm having trouble putting on much pressure.
G2 I play mountain pass after my opponent mulliganed to five. My opponent played a drs here and I untapped, tarfired and wastelanded. I made a misplay here by not tarfiring end of turn as my opponent had a bayou in play, so daze was of no concern. I had a second wasteland and some goblins to get the pressure on. This game looked good before I played Chalice on 1.
G3 I chumped a goyf with double mogg war marshal for a couple of turns, and then lost to engineered plague. I made a misplay here where I played vial and then perish, only to have it dazed.
R3 Miracles 1-2
G1 I am in a situation where I'm thinking about whether I should sandbag some creatures or just go for it. (this was pretty early on). I choose to go for it, play out my hand and swing, putting my opponent on 1. My opponent untaps, and plays an Energy Field with RIP in play. So close.
G2 I have a fast lackey > SGC start with a chalice on t2. Things are over fairly quickly.
G3 I keep a slow vial hand at six. We get to a point where my opponent has Jace vs my chalice on 1. I play a warchief and attack jace for lethal. My opponent plays disenchant CotV, plow. Then I get killed by Helm + RIP.
R4 UB Landstill Control 2-0
I have a hard time imagining a better matchup for us. Standstill and counterspells aren't exactly effective versus us, and we have wasteland and rishadan port for their manlands.
Thoughts: Chalice impressed me once again. I would have liked to have an answer to RIP + Energy Field, suggestions?
Hey GobboLord, just wanted to say, I changed my basic, mono red version into your chrome mox fueled, black for weirding/therapy, winstigator version and my win percentage in practice and smallish tournaments has gone from maybe 30% to 55-60%. I'll post any upcoming results I get. Thanks for getting me optimistic about this deck again.
I ran it tonight finishing 3-1, losing in the top 8 of 21.
Totally. Perish wrecks BGx. I missed my toolbox but liked not awkwardly starting with them in my hand.
Enchantress 0-2
Junk 2-1
Zombardment 2-1
Punishing Jund 2-0
TNN Bant 1-2
I need more time and practice with the sideboard. I like the list.
Thank you, I'm glad to hear that.
Nevertheless, you should keep an eye on what exactly makes the deck perform better: is it the ChromeMox-Winstigator-Chieftain combo OR is it the addition of B cards (like Weriding, Therapy, Perish) OR a combination of those? I'm looking forward hearing from you.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Hello guys,
I would like to share my deck with u.
And i would like to hear what u think of my build
Lands 23
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
4x Cavern of Souls
3x Bad Lands
1x Taiga
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Arid Mesa
1x Mountain
Creatures (24)
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Matron
3x Goblin Warchief
3x Earwig Squad
3x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Goblin Chieftain
1x Siege Gang Commander
1x Krenko, Mob Boss
Artifacts (7)
4x Eather Vial
3x Chalice of the Void
Other Spells (6)
3x Tarfire
2x Warren Weirding
SideBoard
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Stingscourger
3x Pithing Needle
1x Tin Street Hooligan
1x Sharpshooter
1x Tarfire
1x Warren weirding
Oke somethings are standard the landbase is normal. But playing 3 Earwig Squads looks strange. I have tested more than 20 times. And its a killer.
Often i can cast it turn tree with a Cavern of Soul. The face of someone thats playing ANT and sees this coming in to play is priceless. He watches me taking out his tendrills of agony empty the warrens en burning wish!! And scoop. Against stoneforge package take out the jitte en skull and sword. When a player is low on lands take out his lands and so on... you can stop a lot of decks with this card. And besides that is 5/3 for 3 mana.
Now for the artifacts 3 Chalice of the Void main??????? Yes and for the same reason most of times i can play it in turn 2 when u play against blue decks turn 3 for the daze.
The other spells are standard again just stuff to get ur lackey trough (unblocked) en resolve that ringleader to refill your hand.
So this is how it goes turn 1 eather vial turn 2 pitting or other vial. Turn 3 chalice chalice takes out.
Thoughtseize
Cabal Therapy
Dark ritual
Brainstorm
Ponder
Gitexian Probe
Lightning Bolt
Swords to Plowshares
Beserk
Deathrite Shaman
and so on and so on
I played against a lot of meta decks
Stoneforge Package Decks
ANT
Elves
Dredge
Reanimator
Sneak and Show Mirracles
Against all those decks i have good matchups
But thats mostly because of my sideboard
So did i chose for this sideboard.
4x Leyline of the Voids is obvious it kills reanimater and dredge also its pretty good against the upcoming land decks
3x Stingscourger looks like a lot and maby it is but its necessary in my oppinion against emrakul and griselbrand and other big creatures and its easy to vial in too
3x Pithing Needle needs no explanation
2x Tin Street Hooligan for al the anoying artifacts: Jitte Batterskull Sword Ensnarring Bridge and so on
1x Tarfire is good against creature decks to remove early threats and let lackey to the job
1x Warren Weirding to get big creatures out of there and remove the true named nemesis burn al other creatures so TNN is the only one left
1x Sharpshooter a sharspshooter can kill almost anything of death and taxes en elves also a real killer in combination with Siege Gang Commander
I would really like to hear ur guys opinion about my deck list
Thanks in advance!
I'd like to point out things starting with the obvious. No Rishadan Port because he really wanted his splash colors. Thalia appears to be filling this role.
No Gempalm Incinerators because he simply wanted to kill 5 cards. Tarfire almost exclusively for Deathrite Shaman, Delver of Secret, and Stoneforge Mystic. Warren Weirding probably exclusively for True Name Nemesis but is also Gravy on Tarmogoyf. Sure other cards die to these, but it is not nearly as relevant as those 5.
Huge top end with double Siege-Gang Commander and 1 Krenko, Mob Boss. He simply wanted that powerful end game to be more powerful and less luck of the draw. I personally worry about 22 lands with a higher curve than my 23 land build where I always feel short. Dropping one of the top end is probably something I would do.
17 Goblins that survive Engineered Plague / Golgari Charm. Thalia also survives Engineered Plague more than she doesn't. So... 21 creatures that just don't care. This is huge, Max Tietze's and Jim Davis's lists both had 18 cards that die or were made irrelevant (I'm counting Gempalm as made irrelevant because it's much less useful) to the now popular meta of "Let's Kill True Name Nemesis." Of the 8 in his list that do care -- Lackey becomes irrelevant fast, the longer the game goes. Matron still tutors. That's it.
Also I agree his sideboard is a well crafted piece of art.
I think this man is a genius.
I find your build strange for the exact reason you probably love it. mainboard Chalice of the Void and Earwig Squad's. I don't think I could see mainboarding more than 2 of each of these as an anti meta call and in both cases I think general consensus is that doing our own game plan and being pro-active is a more beneficial game 1 and then game 2 the sideboard helps with the defensive maneuvers.
I personally don't like Leyline of the Void but it does what it says better than most cards. 4 Stingscourger, 1 Tarfire and 1 Warren Weirding seems like overkill in sideboard especially with that large removal suite mainboard. I feel like 1 Stingscourger SB is fine because you can matron for it and the other 3 could simply be Confusion in the Ranks. Several people, myself included, are having very good success with taking Omnicience and Emrakul from our opponents. Those 2 spare slots could simply be Pyrokinesis. If you are going to board in removal, make it blowout powerful. Take that Mirror Match, Death and Taxes, Maverick, Elves and Jund. Amongst others to be sure.
Lastly your earlygame appears to be Land a Vial (Very Good), Land a Chalice (Could be meh), hold removal (You're and aggro deck hit them) and wait till you hit 3 mana which could be bad news against Tempo decks. I'd be very cautious about not having a couple of 2 drop creatures in your deck. Hope I was able to help.
[edit]Typos[/edit]
At first thanks for the response.
About that Earwig Squad i think its always a killer for example. Turn 3 Earwig Squads takes out:
Elves: Take out Behemoth Emrakul and Proggie, with chalice the deck is dead
Pox/black hate: Take out Plague Massacre Liliana...
Mirracles: Jace, Angels, Mass removal
SFM: Take out the package, Jitte Swords, Batterskull
Combo: Take out Combo
Lands: Take out Combo, dark depths. Needle for the wasteland (beybey loam engine)
Merfolk: Take out TNN irritating Lords
Painter: Grindstone or painter
BUG: Golgari or Plague
Infect: Beserk
Sneak: and Show: Show and tell, Emrakul, Griselbrand
Omni Tell: Take out show en Tell (good luck hard casting omnisience
U have to see it work to see how strong it is.
On the Sideboard part i totally agree with you. Well about that confusion in the ranks i dont really need that, because of earwig quads taking out all the threats.
new sideboard would be:
4x Leyline of the voids: Its just to good
3x Pithing Needle
3x pyrokinesis
2x Stingscourger
1x Goblin Sharsphooter
1x Tin Street Hooligan
1x Goblin Chieftain
Than about the thalia iam not a great fan of that because my 3 chalices do her job. Thalia often goes to the bottom with ringleader.
About that 2 drop. I agree that i dont have a 2 drop but i will explain why.
In my second turn its down to either chalice of the void or burn the opponents creature with:
Gempalm incinerator
Tarfire
Warrenweirding
Stinscourger (Bounce)
I will go voor 2 SGC sounds nice. Also when lackey comes trough en u put in SGC en play a warchief the turn after it's game.
So my changes after ur revieuw is mainly the sideboard. The mainboard just feels to sollid to change a lot.
An extra SGC is a possibility for the main any suggestions what to take out for it (no chalices or earwigs).
Thanks in advance
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...The-Field.html
Lol, nice in bottom
That article quite clearly shows and tells how easily show and tell can backfire against the player casting it.
Show and Tell is a hilarious card to me. See Vorthos.
Teach: "What did you bring to school Timmy?"
Timmy: "I BROUGHT THE ENTIRETY OF KNOWLEDGE AND WISDOM." *Shows Omnicience*
Teach: "That's nice, what did you bring Billy"
Billy: "I brought what Timmy brought!" *Show's Confusion in the Ranks.*
But yea I do agree, the card is symmetrical and can therefore can backfire, sometimes hilariously. It is my game plan against Show and Tell sans Thalia.
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