[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[NegatorITA]

I played him as a 2off for a couple of month in my 4c Delver shell and he was great, cant confirm that. I know a other italian player who plays him as a 3off and he also really like him.


that's me and my spanish friend loving bob, altrhough I've stopped playing the deck for a while, bob was great all around vs a lot of decks.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/530541#online

this is a list that poped out online recently, no red for bolt, but more black for disfigure and hymn, looks tasty

@ordal, I didn't know you were italian, do we may have known each other already maybe?

[Manipulato]

that's me and my spanish friend loving bob, altrhough I've stopped playing the deck for a while, bob was great all around vs a lot of decks.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/530541#online

this is a list that poped out online recently, no red for bolt, but more black for disfigure and hymn, looks tasty

@ordal, I didn't know you were italian, do we may have known each other already maybe?

What do you play now?

[NegatorITA]

What do you play now?

played a couple of time with Ben's list, it wasn't bad, and more skileld delver player are actually using it with good result all along, I alwasy meet it, and it seems to beat me all the time, jeez
I'm playing Punishing Jund or 4c Midrange (Tomas Mar's list), was also testing a full grixis control build I found online.

Yesterday I lost to a similar list of Jarvis (I was asking for infos but he didn't spill the whole bean) it's basically the same I would say, with one leovold replacing probably a snappy (even if I understood he was running only one snapcaster)


I probably need a bit of more practice, all in all, because I've switched deck but I've lost both time to the deck I was playing myself before (on 4c delver lost to jund, on jund lost to 4c delver... xD)


EDIT

Every time I see stifle lists they triggers my attetions:
ORDAL's (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/ORDAL) list and this one
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/523858#online are juicy on the paper, but I wonder:
Why not the 4 of of stifle? Is really one stifle per game enough?
I can get that it's not useful vs eldrazi, but maybe that should be the only match up in which it's dead? or Am I wrong?

[ORDAL]

played a couple of time with Ben's list, it wasn't bad, and more skileld delver player are actually using it with good result all along, I alwasy meet it, and it seems to beat me all the time, jeez
I'm playing Punishing Jund or 4c Midrange (Tomas Mar's list), was also testing a full grixis control build I found online.

Yesterday I lost to a similar list of Jarvis (I was asking for infos but he didn't spill the whole bean) it's basically the same I would say, with one leovold replacing probably a snappy (even if I understood he was running only one snapcaster)


I probably need a bit of more practice, all in all, because I've switched deck but I've lost both time to the deck I was playing myself before (on 4c delver lost to jund, on jund lost to 4c delver... xD)


EDIT

Every time I see stifle lists they triggers my attetions:
ORDAL's (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/ORDAL) list and this one
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/523858#online are juicy on the paper, but I wonder:
Why not the 4 of of stifle? Is really one stifle per game enough?
I can get that it's not useful vs eldrazi, but maybe that should be the only match up in which it's dead? or Am I wrong?


Im player of Nebraska Magic team, usually i play painter........... me and my team we set for dark confident becasue is strong and take all remavol for make easy street to goyf, btw bob improve miracle matchup, mirror and we think deck need somthing to make card advantage and we dont like painful.
For stifle i think in this deck there isnt so manu space, and i think isnt a real plan, but have two great reasons right now: save from other waste our mana base, and for miracle.......... i think delver for beat miracle main deck need avrupt and stifle.

Ps i dont know you, maybe your name help me, i havent played lady Nebraska legacy main event because i had to start for holiday, my friend won it with reanimator ub

[NegatorITA]

Im player of Nebraska Magic team, usually i play painter........... me and my team we set for dark confident becasue is strong and take all remavol for make easy street to goyf, btw bob improve miracle matchup, mirror and we think deck need somthing to make card advantage and we dont like painful.
For stifle i think in this deck there isnt so manu space, and i think isnt a real plan, but have two great reasons right now: save from other waste our mana base, and for miracle.......... i think delver for beat miracle main deck need avrupt and stifle.

Ps i dont know you, maybe your name help me, i havent played lady Nebraska legacy main event because i had to start for holiday, my friend won it with reanimator ub

I'm giovanni colombi, I'm friend with Maggi, Lari, Palmetta, and others ;)

Yeah, when I played the deck, I always had the feeling it would lose gass after a while, so confidat suited perfectly the need for card draw :)
mmm I see, so stifle is there mainly as defense, to save ourself from opposite treats rather than using it all out (but I guess, it can still be done?)
For that reason I'd say in other delver people used to play up to 2 Vendilion as defense toward miracle, but I guess here we can't run many of them because of the unstable manabase ( I see you running one)
What I didn't like about Goyf, is that usually it's too small, we don't have neither many sorcery, neither artifact creatures like strix or planeswalkers, was goyf alright for you?

[ORDAL]

I'm giovanni colombi, I'm friend with Maggi, Lari, Palmetta, and others ;)

Yeah, when I played the deck, I always had the feeling it would lose gass after a while, so confidat suited perfectly the need for card draw :)
mmm I see, so stifle is there mainly as defense, to save ourself from opposite treats rather than using it all out (but I guess, it can still be done?)
For that reason I'd say in other delver people used to play up to 2 Vendilion as defense toward miracle, but I guess here we can't run many of them because of the unstable manabase ( I see you running one)
What I didn't like about Goyf, is that usually it's too small, we don't have neither many sorcery, neither artifact creatures like strix or planeswalkers, was goyf alright for you?

Im fan of goyf, btw i hate pyromance and dont like gurmag but all of this choice are all pretty personal.
Yeah vendilion is fantastic, i cut one goyf for her, maybe for second vendilion we hai to and more lands.

[NegatorITA]

Im fan of goyf, btw i hate pyromance and dont like gurmag but all of this choice are all pretty personal.
Yeah vendilion is fantastic, i cut one goyf for her, maybe for second vendilion we hai to and more lands.


Will give the deck another go

A question on the sideboard:

Skylasher?
How is the match up vs D&T?
Last time I switched deck from 4c delver to Jund it was because I got paired with : Maverik, Jund, Merfolks, and Elves...

[ORDAL]

Will give the deck another go

A question on the sideboard:

Skylasher?
How is the match up vs D&T?
Last time I switched deck from 4c delver to Jund it was because I got paired with : Maverik, Jund, Merfolks, and Elves...

Ahahha skylasher was a fun test...........
Taxes isnt bad matchup, we have a lot of removal main and post side, prelate dont do so much vs our picks, 3 dibolic edict are very strong. So dread of night sulfur elemental are insane, and we recicled vs miracle,
My name is Michele bacci........... btw when i come back in italy ill male dome test ok mtgo

[NegatorITA]

Ahahha skylasher was a fun test...........
Taxes isnt bad matchup, we have a lot of removal main and post side, prelate dont do so much vs our picks, 3 dibolic edict are very strong. So dread of night sulfur elemental are insane, and we recicled vs miracle,
My name is Michele bacci........... btw when i come back in italy ill male dome test ok mtgo


No yep, I can exclude we met last times, well skylasher was... anti delver? ahah I'm more concerned vs midrange... or lands :X altrhough this list has stifle to buy time vs lands

[Manipulato]

New article from Friedman about his current 4c Delver list incl. boarding guide.
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-12232016-the-ultimate-guide-to-4-color-delver/

[NegatorITA]

New article from Friedman about his current 4c Delver list incl. boarding guide.
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-12232016-the-ultimate-guide-to-4-color-delver/


interesting read, personally I'd cut one thoughtseize from the board, as well as the spell pierce, for two invasive surgery, but that's me (edge vs show, loam, and miracles, stops cold Infernal tutor), true, you lose this slow vs LoTV or Counterbalance but, both can be answered by decay, and still, we are speaking of a lone 1 of, so it may be worthy to try.

Also, I see he keep focusing on the midrange route, and keeps referring to cutting delvers... shouldn't he be playing 4c goodstuffs from Tomas Mar? Yet having played both, I get the feeling, at times the Mar list seems to lose power, yet, Mar uses Goyf and strix, we use Nemesis and Frogs, it gives me thinking about melting the two decks and see what happens...

[Fl0do]

...me thinking about melting the two decks and see what happens...

Maybe this is what you're looking for: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14230&d=284799&f=LE

I'm toying with this types of decks too atm

[NegatorITA]

Maybe this is what you're looking for: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14230&d=284799&f=LE

I'm toying with this types of decks too atm



yes, this is the kind of deck I'd like to try, there also was another online here (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/534696#online)

[ORDAL]

Right now i have only one question on my mind: is essential the splash for the 4th color right now?

Red mean bolt reb kommand, in midrange version we play only 2 bolt. With this meta where high pecent of decks play waste

[NegatorITA]

Right now i have only one question on my mind: is essential the splash for the 4th color right now?

Red mean bolt reb kommand, in midrange version we play only 2 bolt. With this meta where high pecent of decks play waste

for sure it gives reach and flexibility, but I too had the fear of the 4th color in general, I'd say that if black had access to a rightful 1 black removal, we wouldn't need of it.
Disfigure isn't often enough, because bolt can reach the opponent out, so in order to beat the side effect, I'd say we would need a black removal equal or similar to StP, which, the best we have atm, is dismember.
Unsure though, I've hardly played any delver without bolt, I guess I've to try a straight bug list before I can really say something.

[NegatorITA]

for sure it gives reach and flexibility, but I too had the fear of the 4th color in general, I'd say that if black had access to a rightful 1 black removal, we wouldn't need of it.
Disfigure isn't often enough, because bolt can reach the opponent out, so in order to beat the side effect, I'd say we would need a black removal equal or similar to StP, which, the best we have atm, is dismember.
Unsure though, I've hardly played any delver without bolt, I guess I've to try a straight bug list before I can really say something.



speaking of the devil...


http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/fatalpush.jpg

[KobeBryan]

speaking of the devil...


http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/fatalpush.jpg

This is a good card. Even works with fetch lands

[AfroSmile]

speaking of the devil...


http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/fatalpush.jpg

Really true. The devil has come.

[Whitefaces]

I hate that this card has bad art, because we'll be seeing a LOT of it.

[Manipulato]

I hate that this card has bad art, because we'll be seeing a LOT of it.

100% agree, thought the same :laugh:

[AfroSmile]

I hate that this card has bad art, because we'll be seeing a LOT of it.

It is true, but each time you play you can say: THiS IS SPARTA!!!
This might be funny.

We have to think about that card. Not only in our deck. If we play it, how many? In main board, in sideboard?
How do we fight it? In Ben Friedmann decklist? In decklist with Goyf?

I think it is a great addition to bolt. I like a lot bolt, but I'm considering playing BUG Delver or BUG Midrange without Goyf, because this card would be to good against Goyf in matchups where we need it.
In BUrg, I'll play a split of Bolt/Decay/Push, maybe something like 3/3/2 + 1 in sideboard or 4/3/1 + 2 in SB, with 2/3 Snapcaster mage. Snap becomes greater than before with this new target.

Another deck that will benefit from it is Grixis Delver. Before the card, the deck have trouble to handle Goyf without dismember or Strix, these cards have huge cost in comparaison of Fatal Push. I think Spell pierce will not be good enough to stop this one mana removal in a lot of matchup.

I write this quickly in the train. It might be unaccured, but I really want that we discuss the card.

[redtwister]

Okay, let's be clear: That is Jackie Chan in his armor from Dragon Blade kicking the Persian emissary off of Kami's Lookout from Dragon Ball Z. Jeez people, isn't that obvious? (Yeah, yeah, it's a Skyship, I know...)

And Fatally Pushed is a very interesting card. AfroSmile is on the right track, though I think it brings up the question of whether or not this could become a BUG Delver deck now, without Bolt or Goyf, with 4 of this? It is dead against far fewer creatures than Bolt though you obviously lose direct damage. It would improve the manabase consistency as well. Also, it triggers off Wasteland and Daze, as well as fetches and chump blockers.

[Whitefaces]

As some people have alluded to, the cards main problem weirdly enough is Abrupt Decay. There are too many matchups where removal is dead, we can't overload on this effect. At the same time, we can't really cut Decay when playing straight BUG because of Counterbalance. It's going to be tough to find the balance (no pun intended). I also agree that AfroSmile is on the right track with numbers.

BUG Delver has always been the most midrange flavor of Delver decks, so in that sense I think it will benefit the most since it's not losing any bolts or decays to make room for this anyway. I'm not sure 4c will need or want more than 2 in the 75.

[Stevestamopz]

Went 4-2 with the Burger today at our attempt at having a big event.

Rd1: Lands 1-2
Rd2: Elves 2-1
Rd3: Miracle of Science (Miracles and Omniscience mashed together): 1-2
Rd4: Eldrazi and Taxes: 2-1
Rd5: Death and Taxes: 2-1
Rd6: Some Junk Nic Fit thing: 2-1

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tombstalker
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Ponder
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Painful Truths
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

The losses were pretty meh, Lands did it's Lands vs Delver thing and I couldn't draw a threat in the middle game against Miracles of Science to put him away after I won this sweet counter-war:

http://i.imgur.com/fQwqGU8.png

Tombstalker was mildly difficult to cast at times but basically won me all my matches against what should have been horrendous matchups. Counterspell continues to shine against basically everything that isn't the Delver mirror and is easily my favourite card in the deck. I think this deck is definitely an aggro-control deck as opposed to tempo/midrange deck (like grixis delver) and UU - stop your shit ends up synergising so well with the rest of what we're doing.

Deck still feels like the best deck I've ever played and is just a boatload of fun to play compared to everything else in the format.

Good luck to all the BURGers at GP Louisville!

[Manipulato]

4 copies of our beloved 4c Delver made it Top 32 at GP Louisville! Good job guys! All on the Friedman list.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplou17/9-32-decklists-2017-01-08

[Whitefaces]

Solid showing for greedymanabase.dec! Just need one of them to crack the top 8 and take it down now.

Quite interesting that Noah Walker has moved away from Grixis Delver to Tomas Mars list, might mean he doesn't feel like it's that well positioned at the moment (which I agree with). At the same time, two quite stock Grixis lists made top 8.

I'd love to read a report if any of the players sees this.

[Manipulato]

Solid showing for greedymanabase.dec! Just need one of them to crack the top 8 and take it down now.

Quite interesting that Noah Walker has moved away from Grixis Delver to Tomas Mars list, might mean he doesn't feel like it's that well positioned at the moment (which I agree with). At the same time, two quite stock Grixis lists made top 8.

I'd love to read a report if any of the players sees this.

I also cant explain why Grixis Delver stll has good results at big tournaments...I think the positioning in the meta is really not the best and it struggles vs so many strategies even among the tier 1 decks.

The performance outside of the Top 8 were also weak, no one within the Top 32 and in general just around 2-3 versions day 2! I think it's more the strong players than the deck itself.

I think BUG Delver & 4c Delver are way better positioned atm especially with Fatal Push coming which offers BUG good one mana removal.

Edit: I'm still not sure about 2 Jitte's in the SB, even with 3 TNN. They're just super slow & clunky especially vs decks like DnT where the manabase is under pressure & getting 2 counters on it is difficult because of mom or Thalia + Karakas.
I really enjoy something like 2 Forked Bolt + 1 Sulfur + 1 DoN to beat all those weenie decks even if Sulfur + DoN are just good vs DnT.
FB also synergizeses well with something like SCM.
Any experience on this topic?

[Manipulato]

Hey bUrgers,

any feedback from GP grinders or other "bigger" tourneys within europe? Come out of your caves :wink:

[Xerlic]

I suck at manabases. Can someone explain why Friedman's list runs a 1 of Badlands?

[Whitefaces]

I suck at manabases. Can someone explain why Friedman's list runs a 1 of Badlands?

If you look at the manabase there are three Tropical Islands, and it will often be the land you lead on turn one. Badlands provides the other two colours to cast either Abrupt Decay or Lightning Bolt on turn two. You don't fetch it up that often, but there are enough situations where you want it to go alongside a Trop to warrant the inclusion.

[AfroSmile]

If you look at the manabase there are three Tropical Islands, and it will often be the land you lead on turn one. Badlands provides the other two colours to cast either Abrupt Decay or Lightning Bolt on turn two. You don't fetch it up that often, but there are enough situations where you want it to go alongside a Trop to warrant the inclusion.

Actually he doesn't. He play 3 Underground Sea, 2 Tropical Island, 1 Volcanic Island and 1 Badlands. The Badlands replaced a Volcanic Island in its initial 75.
I think it is easier to cast Leovold with this manabase because is really hard to cast him in our deck. I have myself tested Badlands and Taiga during a very long time and my prefered non-blue duals was actually Badlands, but with his version with 3 TNN, I don't like putting Leovold in my main and weaken my manabase for him.

Between I won a small event with this Decklist yesterday.

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
8 U-Fetches
4 Wasteland

4 Delver, 4 Shaman, 3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snap, 2 Gurmag

4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder
4 Force of Will, 4 Daze, 3 Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt, 3 Decay

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Dismember, 1 Painful Truth
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle, 2 Jitte
1 Sulfur Elemental

I did 3-0 to a small event, playing again Grixis Green Delver, Pur Grixis Delver (meh?) and Infect.

It is a small change from the last version I played (-1 Snap, +1 TNN) and it is real that this small change felt incredibly good. I wanted to test 3 Thoughtseize maindeck, but didn't have the card on me.
I test a little bit Leovold, but I don't have much time to playtest sadly. So I have to really playtest it with the Friedmann version in order make me my own idea to this version and how Leovold is doing well with me. I fear that is only a trend/hype and that he is not that good has he should be in our deck. What do you think of Leovold in BUrg? And bUrg?

I'm looking forward to go on with 3 TNN in a Fatal Push meta, hopping it will not be that hard for Delver Deck, but I might change for a more controllish/Midrange of the version if we loose to hard to deck playing Fatal Push w/wo Snapcaster Mage.
For 4c Delver, I don't know exactly how many FP I'll play. Between 0 to 3 in my 75. Beginning with 3 (1 main, 2 SB), in order to test it and might end with 0-2. But it is only speculation. There is some people out there already testing the card? Do they want share their early conclusions?

[Whitefaces]

I stand corrected! Maybe one of his older lists had 3 Trops, I'm losing my mind or am thinking of another deck entirely!


Congrats on the result, I like your list and I'll try it out online. I've only had Grixis Delver until I get Goyfs there, but can build this, 4c is much better imo and I much prefer playing it (it's what I play in paper usually).

So you're saying you'd replace all the Spell Pierces with TS? Or maybe 2 TS 1 Pierce split? I'm not sure on having so much discard in the MD.

I also think Leovold is just an incredibly powerful proactive card in general and is worth playing if the manabase can support it. He's obviously stronger in some decks than others, like Reids GP winning list, but I think he'd perform well here too. I may try one over the third TNN. I tried him as a 'fun-of' in 4c just after Conspiracy came out but I didn't draw him enough to see what he can do, his power is clear to everyone now though.

I agree with you on Push, it's really hard to tell until we try it. My feeling is it either replaces a bolt as a one-of in the MD if we're worried about Tarmogoyf, or none. Possibly 1 more in the SB, but we already play a huge amount of removal spells in 4c. It's really going to shine in BUG who don't have access to bolt. But since we already have Decay for goyfs, and I also think it's quite badly positioned at the moment, Push is only a SB card for us if we play it at all.

[AfroSmile]

I stand corrected! Maybe one of his older lists had 3 Trops, I'm losing my mind or am thinking of another deck entirely!

In the bUrG with 3-4 Goyf, Sylvan Library and other green stuff in the sideboard, it might be 3 Tropical Island. But it was really often 2/2/2 between the blue lands.



So you're saying you'd replace all the Spell Pierces with TS? Or maybe 2 TS 1 Pierce split? I'm not sure on having so much discard in the MD.

I also think Leovold is just an incredibly powerful proactive card in general and is worth playing if the manabase can support it. He's obviously stronger in some decks than others, like Reids GP winning list, but I think he'd perform well here too. I may try one over the third TNN. I tried him as a 'fun-of' in 4c just after Conspiracy came out but I didn't draw him enough to see what he can do, his power is clear to everyone now

I wanted to try 3 Thoughtseize maindeck like in the time of Dig Through Time with the TNN version of the deck.
If you want to play Leovold in the deck, you should really look at the Ben Friedmann version of the deck because it is really what you want with Leovold.

Check the 4c Delver (4 copy in top 32) of GP Louisville: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplou17/9-32-decklists-2017-01-08
Check the explanation of Ben Friedmann himself for more detail: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-12232016-the-ultimate-guide-to-4-color-delver/
Older version of the deck with some videos: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-09122016-60-card-shootout-legacy-4-color-delver/

It was already posted, but I think it is better if we have them all in the same post.

[Whitefaces]

In the bUrG with 3-4 Goyf, Sylvan Library and other green stuff in the sideboard, it might be 3 Tropical Island. But it was really often 2/2/2 between the blue lands.


I wanted to try 3 Thoughtseize maindeck like in the time of Dig Through Time with the TNN version of the deck.
If you want to play Leovold in the deck, you should really look at the Ben Friedmann version of the deck because it is really what you want with Leovold.

Check the 4c Delver (4 copy in top 32) of GP Louisville: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplou17/9-32-decklists-2017-01-08
Check the explanation of Ben Friedmann himself for more detail: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-12232016-the-ultimate-guide-to-4-color-delver/
Older version of the deck with some videos: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-09122016-60-card-shootout-legacy-4-color-delver/

It was already posted, but I think it is better if we have them all in the same post.

That could be it, I can't remember from where, but I played some list with 3 Trops recently. Ah well.

I do like TS with TNN, I'm just more worried about the setup vs Miracles where TS doesn't protect the fish at all.

I've seen Bens list, I read all his articles etc :) Thanks for the links though, I like the way 4c is evolving, I played it at GP Prague last year too (I think I came 100 and something?)

I just ran basically your maindeck through a league and went 4-1, losing to Miracles. I made a few mistakes, but the deck feels good! Here's the video if you want to check it out, just ignore the mull at the beginning, should have gone to 4, I thought I was on the draw! - https://www.twitch.tv/whitefaces/v/115637608

2-1 vs Miracles
2-1 vs Burn
1-2 vs Miracles
2-1 vs Aggro Loam
2-1 vs Aggro Loam (same guy, silly pairings)

This is the list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
8 fetch

SB:
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
1 Null Rod
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Painful Truths
2 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Darkblast

[AfroSmile]

I've seen Bens list, I read all his articles etc :) Thanks for the links though, I like the way 4c is evolving, I played it at GP Prague last year too (I think I came 100 and something?)

Nice result! I was there too, but I didn't make anything.



I just ran basically your maindeck through a league and went 4-1, losing to Miracles. I made a few mistakes, but the deck feels good! Here's the video if you want to check it out, just ignore the mull at the beginning, should have gone to 4, I thought I was on the draw! - https://www.twitch.tv/whitefaces/v/115637608

Insta follow! ;-) I'm looking forward seeing you playing.

[Whitefaces]

Nice result! I was there too, but I didn't make anything.


Insta follow! ;-) I'm looking forward seeing you playing.

Nice, thanks! I just went through another league with the same list, 4-1 again beating BUG Delver (Hymn), Omnitell, Reid Dukes BUG TNN deck and Miracles, lost to painter (Blood Moon...)

Will keep trying things out, I already feel like I agree with you and want a 3rd TNN (almost able to get another one online, they're quite expensive). And with the 3rd play that 2nd Jitte you have too. But opposite to that, I feel like Null Rod is really underplayed, and especially good at the moment since lots of the Miracles decks are picking up multiple EEs to answer things like Needle etc, can't have 2 of each Rod and Jitte in the SB though :cool:

[AfroSmile]

Nice, thanks! I just went through another league with the same list, 4-1 again beating BUG Delver (Hymn), Omnitell, Reid Dukes BUG TNN deck and Miracles, lost to painter (Blood Moon...)

Will keep trying things out, I already feel like I agree with you and want a 3rd TNN (almost able to get another one online, they're quite expensive). And with the 3rd play that 2nd Jitte you have too. But opposite to that, I feel like Null Rod is really underplayed, and especially good at the moment since lots of the Miracles decks are picking up multiple EEs to answer things like Needle etc, can't have 2 of each Rod and Jitte in the SB though :cool:
GG! Nice results!
Yesterday I was at my house late and saw only your first Miracle and your Burn matches.
I'm looking forward to see the other matches.

In my goyf version of the deck, I played Null Rod too. Winter Orb was there too as a 2-of and it was in addition to 1-2 needle, it was really good against Miracle.
But right now I play 3 True-name Nemesis and it feels like a main deck answer to the deck. :tongue:
More seriously, your are true, that the deck may lack of Miracle matchup card. But I think it is ok.

If we look where Jitte is more important: All creature matchup -> D&T, Infect, Elves, Delvers, Maverick, etc.
And the Null Rod: All deck with important artifact: Miracle, Storm, D&T, MUD, 12-Post, Belcher, etc.
(I may forgotten a lot of deck or good deck, I'm writing on my smartphone in a hurry)
We have too look, which deck are really problematic and which one we really want to beat.
If we don't play Jitte, we may have trouble to have mass removal effect.

[Whitefaces]

GG! Nice results!
Yesterday I was at my house late and saw only your first Miracle and your Burn matches.
I'm looking forward to see the other matches.

In my goyf version of the deck, I played Null Rod too. Winter Orb was there too as a 2-of and it was in addition to 1-2 needle, it was really good against Miracle.
But right now I play 3 True-name Nemesis and it feels like a main deck answer to the deck. :tongue:
More seriously, your are true, that the deck may lack of Miracle matchup card. But I think it is ok.

If we look where Jitte is more important: All creature matchup -> D&T, Infect, Elves, Delvers, Maverick, etc.
And the Null Rod: All deck with important artifact: Miracle, Storm, D&T, MUD, 12-Post, Belcher, etc.
(I may forgotten a lot of deck or good deck, I'm writing on my smartphone in a hurry)
We have too look, which deck are really problematic and which one we really want to beat.
If we don't play Jitte, we may have trouble to have mass removal effect.

I love Winter Orb too, but like you say it's better in Goyf versions not TNN because of the higher curve, definitely agree with that. It is kind of an answer for Top too though, to go with my point below.

I feel like I'm only losing games to Miracles when they have a SDT active in the late game, CB is answered with Decay, Entreat by Fluster/FoW, Jace with Pyroblast, Mentor by Jitte or keeping them on the backfoot and lists are playing it less than Entreat these days it seems etc. So I feel like we want at the very least two answers to Top, probably 3.

We already have a LOT of removal for creature matchups with Bolts, Decays and Snaps, I think I'll try without Jittes and 2 Null Rods. Jitte can be quite clunky since the only creature we're really equipping it to reliably is TNN too, though of course when you've got that going it's hard to lose. I think stopping EE vs Miracles and being harder to counter through CB outweighs the strength Needle has vs Lands, so 2 Rods 1 Needle. It's also brutal vs DnT, so we have enough good cards even with cutting the Jittes.

To make up for the lack of sweeper I'll try a Fire Covenant in the SB for things like Elves and Maverick etc.

People are playing a LOT of TNN at the moment, so we probably want a couple of answers for them. Make Obsolete or Marsh Casualties are the best options I think.

So something like

SB:

2 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Painful Truths
1 Fire Covenant
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Make Obsolete
1 Marsh Casualties

So SBing vs Miracles would be

+2 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Painful Truths
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Sulfur Elemental
-4 Daze
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Wasteland

Not sure on cutting all bolts vs Miracles though, maybe keep one over a FoW.

[sanderanders]

This is the list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
8 fetch


This list, cut the red (4 bolt en 2 Volc) , and them ad 1 Underground and 1 Trop and 4 Fatal Pushes.

fixed the mana problems and 4 bolt or 4 fatal push are pretty much the same. (not excactly, i know, but bolt is stronger in the Young Pyro/Cabal/Probe built in this build not so much)

This is how i think the deck should be, my new love.

[Whitefaces]

This list, cut the red (4 bolt en 2 Volc) , and them add 1 Underground and 1 Trop and 4 Fatal Pushes.

fixed the mana problems and 4 bolt or 4 fatal push are pretty much the same. (not excactly, i know, but bolt is stronger in the Young Pyro/Cabal/Probe built in this build not so much)

This is how i think the deck should be, my new love.

I've been thinking about this, I'll definitely try it when Fatal Push comes online, but not sure it's better. Losing Pyroblast is pretty big, it's the main reason to play red imo. I think I'm going to replace a Gurmag with something else too, the deck uses DRS very heavily, and with Snaps too I've had some awkward draws with both. I'll put a third TNN for now, but ideally it would be a 2 drop that isn't dependent on the GY, any suggestions?

'Four colour BUG' :laugh:

4 DRS
4 Delver
2 Snap
3 TNN
1 Leovold
1 Gurmag

4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

4 BS
3 Push
4 Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW
1 Spell Pierce

9 fetch
3 Sea
3 Trop
4 Waste

I played the above list in another league last night for anyone interested, but was playing horribly for some reason and went 2-3. VS Miracles 3 times, won two and lost a third when G3 I had to mull to 5 and got run over by Jace and Entreat. DnT is where I really messed up, G3 I missed there was no fetch in the gy so Pondered instead of bolting a Mother of Runes thinking I could do both so had to eventually burn a bolt and decay on it as well as take 10-15 dmg from a Batterskull. The game went for about 30 turns and I went through all 4 flickerwisps, every recruiter and CJ on Null rods etc but after the dust settled I had a TNN, him Germ with Skull and Jitte with 1 counter, he drew Sword of Fire and Ice for lethal. My next card was Brainstorm into Snapcaster and Decay :frown: Also lost vs Storm, mulled to 5 g3 and got destroyed by a t1 Dark Confidant.

Here is a nice moment from one of the Miracles matches, grinding through his whole deck! http://imgur.com/a/41zpR

[sanderanders]

I've been thinking about this, I'll definitely try it when Fatal Push comes online, but not sure it's better. Losing Pyroblast is pretty big, it's the main reason to play red imo. I think I'm going to replace a Gurmag with something else too, the deck uses DRS very heavily, and with Snaps too I've had some awkward draws with both. I'll put a third TNN for now, but ideally it would be a 2 drop that isn't dependent on the GY, any suggestions?

'Four colour BUG' :laugh:

4 DRS
4 Delver
2 Snap
3 TNN
1 Leovold
1 Gurmag

4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

4 BS
3 Push
4 Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW
1 Spell Pierce

9 fetch
3 Sea
3 Trop
4 Waste

I played the above list in another league last night for anyone interested, but was playing horribly for some reason and went 2-3. VS Miracles 3 times, won two and lost a third when G3 I had to mull to 5 and got run over by Jace and Entreat. DnT is where I really messed up, G3 I missed there was no fetch in the gy so Pondered instead of bolting a Mother of Runes thinking I could do both so had to eventually burn a bolt and decay on it as well as take 10-15 dmg from a Batterskull. The game went for about 30 turns and I went through all 4 flickerwisps, every recruiter and CJ on Null rods etc but after the dust settled I had a TNN, him Germ with Skull and Jitte with 1 counter, he drew Sword of Fire and Ice for lethal. My next card was Brainstorm into Snapcaster and Decay :frown: Also lost vs Storm, mulled to 5 g3 and got destroyed by a t1 Dark Confidant.

Here is a nice moment from one of the Miracles matches, grinding through his whole deck! http://imgur.com/a/41zpR

Regarding 1 or 2 Gurmags...imho it also is about hitting this big fatty in the first place, 1 Gurmag just doesn't show up often enough maybe? I stick with two delve monsters, but i am going to try a 1/1 Gurmag Angler/Tombstalker Split. One benefit of the erasure of red is that BB is less of a hassle with 4 US, 1 Bayou and the 4 DRS....

[Whitefaces]

Regarding 1 or 2 Gurmags...imho it also is about hitting this big fatty in the first place, 1 Gurmag just doesn't show up often enough maybe? I stick with two delve monsters, but i am going to try a 1/1 Gurmag Angler/Tombstalker Split. One benefit of the erasure of red is that BB is less of a hassle with 4 US, 1 Bayou and the 4 DRS....

You might be right, I've just had quite a few games already where I struggle to cast the first one in a meaningful time. Only once have I drawn the second in this situation, which was awful, but I've had to BS or Ponder the second away too quite a lot. This build is a lot more reactive than Grixis Delver and doesn't have Probe to fuel it too. I may try a Strix in this spot. Or alternatively maybe this slot doesn't need to be a creature, 15 is quite high.

[Whitefaces]

I went through another couple of leagues, 4-1 first (losing to UR Delver in the last round) and 5-0 (I guess it will be on MTGGoldfish tomorrow), it's feeling very good! It's recorded on my twitch from the last round of the first league if anybody wants to watch.

I'm still unsure on the second Gurmag, but will keep trying 2 for now.

The Null Rods in the board were fantastic, and lots of Miracles decks are going from Mentor to Entreat so I put another Invasive Surgery, which was very good too. Leovold wasn't too impressive, neither were the Thoughtseizes.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Gurmag Angler

2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

SB:

2 Flusterstorm
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Make Obsolete
2 Pyroblast
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Fire Covenant
1 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod

[AfroSmile]

I went through another couple of leagues, 4-1 first (losing to UR Delver in the last round) and 5-0 (I guess it will be on MTGGoldfish tomorrow), it's feeling very good! It's recorded on my twitch from the last round of the first league if anybody wants to watch.

I'm still unsure on the second Gurmag, but will keep trying 2 for now.

The Null Rods in the board were fantastic, and lots of Miracles decks are going from Mentor to Entreat so I put another Invasive Surgery, which was very good too. Leovold wasn't too impressive, neither were the Thoughtseizes.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Gurmag Angler

2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

SB:

2 Flusterstorm
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Make Obsolete
2 Pyroblast
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Fire Covenant
1 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod

Really nice.
You should try my decklist. 3 Pierce and 3 True-name. It feels really great.
And then you can found your own sideboard. Maybe you can put Leovold in the sideboard.

[Whitefaces]

Really nice.
You should try my decklist. 3 Pierce and 3 True-name. It feels really great.
And then you can found your own sideboard. Maybe you can put Leovold in the sideboard.

Shall do, I like the idea of 3 Pierce and 3 TNN a lot more than these 2 TS and Leovold :smile: My only worry with that is too many cards to take out vs DnT. I guess more Forces can stay in, I usually keep 2.

[ashent]

I put this list together the other night with small changes. I do not own a 3rd Snapcaster Mage so I ran 2 Snaps and added +1 Leovold to the deck.

I played a small four rounder. Out of decks there I saw the meta was almost exactly 25% BR Reanimator, and felt good about my 3 Surgicals in the side. This list is much better against BR than other stuff I normally play, usually BUG Delver or Alluren or Shardless.

2-1 Enchantress
Game 1 was easy as I was on the play. I started on turn 1 Deathrite Shaman with Daze up. I dazed some stuff and killed him with a turn 2 Delver. I didn't notice until he said it, but he didn't resolve a single spell this game. Game 2 I had a slower hand on the draw, and drew my 1 Leovold which I was really hoping for in the match up. I did not however have enough counters or cantrips this game to find my way through all the Elephant Grass, and he managed to resolve a Doomwake Giant and although he could not draw extra cards, he slowly grinded through all my creatures except Leo and killed me. Game 3 he mulled to 6 and I kept a hand with a Waste. A good Enchantress player doesn't go around putting Wild Growth on a Savannah but he had to this time so he got blown out by a turn 2 Wasteland and conceded. His friend said his hand of 7 was marginally better but if either hand crumpled to a single Waste then I don't think either of them were keepable against a Delver player.

2-1 BR Reanimator
I was silly and didn't realize I had already known this player was on BR Reanimator from sitting near a Reanimator mirror in the first round, and should have kept a better 7. He won the die roll and had a turn 1 Sire of Insanity through a single Daze, so I scooped without playing any more. I brought in 3 Surgicals, 2 Thoughtseizes, and a Flusterstorm for some slower threats, preferring to just try to beat their initial attempt at going off and then outdrawing them. I find it's okay to side out threats and just kill them with whatever you find later rather than trying to ensure you have a turn 1 Delver or something in this matchup. Game 2 I was on the play with a DRS and enough Forces and Dazes to stop him on the initial attempt and from killing my DRS, then I landed a second one and did nothing except activate them until he conceded. Game 3 I was on the draw and he played a line that used like his entire hand to lose to a single Surgical.

2-0 BUG Delver
I lost the die roll and we cast Deathrites and Delvers and Abrupt Decays back and forth. Like a lot of Delver mirrors (and just how Ben Friedman has often said) we traded removal back and forth until the game stalled out and then just as promised, my top decks were stronger than his. I killed him with a Snapcaster that did 8 damage and flashed back an AD for a Tarmogoyf and drew more action than he did. He cast 2 Fatal Push though and that sort of surprised me because I didn't know that card was legal yet. Game 2 on the draw I killed everything he played, landed a Gurmag Angler he couldn't deal with, and Pyroblasted a Jace he brought in to try to out grind me. The addition of the red beat this Delver mirror easily due to Bolt and the sideboarded Pyro's.

2-0 Merfolk
I lost the die roll again but his hand was pretty slow. He had nothing but a Cursecatcher and appeared to struggle with blue mana after I turn 1 Wasted his Cavern. His next land was a Mutavault and he could only attack for 1, so I was only hemorrhaging life slowly while getting a good graveyard together and cantripping. I Wasted a Mutavault, Bolted another Mutavault, and got a flipped Delver together and he landed a True-Name. Our race was even until he popped out two Lords in a turn and swung for 8. I had to decide whether to try to mitigate the damage or ignore it. I had an Insectile Aberration, a Delver of Secrets, and 3 lands. He was at 11, and I was taking a lot of damage this turn. I had a bolt in hand as well as a Snap. I decided to take full combat damage and attempt to 1) Bolt him end step to 8 2) blind flip my second Delver, 3) also get up to 4 mana so I could Snap -> Bolt without being caught by a Cursecatcher. I took full combat damage leaving me dead next turn no matter what, Bolted his face, then untapped and blind revealed a Brainstorm. I flipped Delver, then fetched the Brainstorm away and drew a Tropical Island. I played it, Snap Bolted him and got the concession. Game 2 I cast a lot of Abrupt Decays and Bolts and killed him with a Leovold and a True-Name.

[LarsLeif]

Is this the thread for discussing the 4c delverless delver decks? A.k.a Thomas Mar Czech Special a.k.a Noah Walker 4c? Or does that deck have its own thread somewhere? I cannot find it.

[Manipulato]

Is this the thread for discussing the 4c delverless delver decks? A.k.a Thomas Mar Czech Special a.k.a Noah Walker 4c? Or does that deck have its own thread somewhere? I cannot find it.

No, it´s the wrong thread. There is no 100% correct thread for it but most people discuss it in the Team America Midrange/Control thread.

[ashent]

Same list as above from the other day, with a Leovold in the main and 2 Snaps, 2 TNN, and 2 Gurmags. List:

19 Lands
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

15 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Gurmag Angler

26 Instants/Sorceries
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

15 SB
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest (questionable pet card)

Rd 1 - Enchantress 2-0
Played this guy a few days prior round 1 also and he grumbled. I lost the die roll and let him Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl his basic Forest, start casting Suppression Fields and doing whatever he wanted. I had a single Delver and a bunch of counters and duals in hand with no fetches, so I had no interest in countering anything short of an Enchantress. This proved correct as I hit him for 3 (paying 2 mana for an Elephant grass) every turn until he died, holding counters for anything actually threatening that he could play. A different hand could have possibly lost to the Suppression Fields, but that's not how this one turned out. I sided out the Gurmag Anglers (due to Elephant Grass and possible RIP) and some Dazes, boarded in a Leovold and some Surgicals, hoping to counter an Enchantress/Enchantress' Presence and Surgical it out. On the draw I kept what I thought was reasonable with a turn 1 DRS and a Surgical and some cantrips. He ramped for turn 1 and then dropped a RIP turn 2 which I had no free counter for and my hand started to look abysmal. I spent the rest of the game playing lands and waiting for him to kill me, but it never happened. I eventually just dropped a Snapcaster Mage with no target and hit him for 2 for a long time, then Bolted him out of the game. His draws were just not very good.

Rd 2 - 4 Color something or other 1-2

This list was a BUG control shell with all the good stuff, plus 2 white duals to support Swords. These games played out how I expect Shardless to play out. His endgame is stronger with Lili, Jace, Sylvan Library, Leovold, and lots of Strixes. Game 1 I got him to 1 before he stabilized and outdrew me, both of us using multiple Snapcasters on Abrupt Decays, going through a bunch of Deathrites each, and him eventually getting through my 2 copies of Gurmag before landing a Leovold I was out of answers to and then a Jace. I boarded out the Forces but kept 3 Dazes, then brought in Jittes and Pyroblasts and the Ancient Grudge for his creatures. On the play I flipped 2 Delvers by turn 3 and countered everything he did including his last hope of a Jace which ate a Spell Pierce and killed him really quickly. Game 3 we played the longest match of the night, him going through 3 total copies of Fatal Push, a bunch of Decays, and drawing off of Strixes, killing TNN's and Gurmags with Lilis, and then stabilizing very low with my last threat dead. I felt completely comfortable with winning this game until he wasted my second Volcanic and I lost the game with a hand full of Bolt Bolt Ancient Grudge which were uncastable.

Rd 3 - UR Delver 2-0

Game 1 I won the die roll and led with Delver against his Swiftspear. Over the course of the next four turns I Bolted and Decayed his Delver, Swiftspear, and Stormchaser with counter backup left over for a suspected Price of Progress and killed him with just the turn 2 Insect. For game two I sided out 2 Wastelands and 2 Forces, replacing them with Pyros and Jittes. I played the game slowly, running a DRS and then a Delver into back to back Dazes and taking 1 a turn from Swiftspear, then started deploying my better stuff when his hand was softer. Eventually I cleaned his board, then landed a DRS and gained life with it until he conceded to a True-Name. This match seems to revolve around Abrupt Decay as it bypasses their ability to stick a Prowess threat and protect it with Daze. TNN also lines up very well against them as the race seemed doable provided they never resolve a POP.

Rd 4 - Zoo 2-1

I drew so many bolts this round that I felt sorry for my poor Nacatl-casting friend. He was running Paths in the main which were perfect against me, and also had a good collection of green and white hate bears which were annoying, but I Decayed and Bolt-Snap-Bolted everything and raced him game 1 without too many issues. Game 2 was harder on the draw, even after bringing in the Jitte's, against 2 Nacatl's and then Qasali Pridemages that killed my expensive Jitte investment. I fell short of racing him after he got a Library set up and drew some gas. Game 3 I went back on the Daze plan and played threats out slower, making sure to have Pierce up to protect them. Instead of pumping out Delvers and Deathrites into the face of removal I preferred to cantrip into removal, clear the board, then landed a Delver finally after making sure I could protect it from at least two Bolts or Paths, and then made it to the Jitte+TNN plan for the concession, making 3-1 for the night.

Notes: I really want that 3rd Snapcaster Mage, and the Leovold in the main will be cut for it. I love the card and I think he's amazing, but in this deck with the red and the fast game plan he isn't quite as good. It's possible though that with more and more hate for TNN becoming prevalent soon due to Reid's success with Noble BUG, I may cut the Merfolk instead. 2 Jitte's in the side were a dream and came in in every matchup where I wanted to kill creatures. Leaning on red in the sideboard is usually not done, looking at Ben Friedman's lists, because of the fragility of only having 2 Volcanics. I walked right into this with my greed against the BUG player because I simply could not justify not running Pyroblast.. Losing your two red sources is extremely easy and should be almost counted on. I think I could have 4-0'd if I had simply left my second Volc in hand until trying to bolt him out of the game or something later.

[LarsLeif]

No, it´s the wrong thread. There is no 100% correct thread for it but most people discuss it in the Team America Midrange/Control thread.

I see. Thank you!

[AdventuresWithTarmo]

Hey everyone, what do. you all think of this 60? tarmogoyf isn't the most well positioned, but I don't have Snapcaster mages currently. Also, I'm wondering, after looking at the bug delver forum, if the mana consistency of this style delver deck without red is a better strategy? With fatal push being available and all.

// Deck: 4c Delver (60)

// Lands
4 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest


// Creatures
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
2 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay

[AfroSmile]

Hey everyone, what do. you all think of this 60? tarmogoyf isn't the most well positioned, but I don't have Snapcaster mages currently. Also, I'm wondering, after looking at the bug delver forum, if the mana consistency of this style delver deck without red is a better strategy? With fatal push being available and all.

// Deck: 4c Delver (60)

// Lands
4 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest


// Creatures
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
2 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay

I think I will not play Leovold main. With goyf I actually really love Thoughtseize.
You can try 2 configuration.
-1 Goyf -1 Leovold (put in the sideboard) +2 Thoughtseize
Or
-1 Goyf/Leovold +1 Pierce
I think and felt that 16 creatures is a bit too much.
I'm not a big fan of Leovold. I think it is a very good sideboard card, but main deck is between ok and good.

I test a little bit with fatal push in a BUG version of the deck and the lost of the polyvalence of bolt, felt too bad for me.

[AdventuresWithTarmo]

I think I will not play Leovold main. With goyf I actually really love Thoughtseize.

That sounds like a really good idea. Maybe then I go -1 leovold and goyf +2 TS and -1 volc +1 badlands? Sort of like Ben Friedmans ver?

[AfroSmile]

That sounds like a really good idea. Maybe then I go -1 leovold and goyf +2 TS and -1 volc +1 badlands? Sort of like Ben Friedmans ver?

It is a matter of taste for the -1 volc +1 badlands. I test it a lot and i love it, but it was to frustrating too mulligan because of badlands + no other blue lands. You can give a try. It is a lot better with a manabase with 3 tropical island.

[Theonlyone]

Hello. I haven't played legacy for a while and was wondering if someone knew how Ben Friedman's list evolved with Aether revolt?:smile:
Thanks.:laugh:

[hofzge]

I test a little bit with fatal push in a BUG version of the deck and the lost of the polyvalence of bolt, felt too bad for me.

How about this in the future:

3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Spell Pierce
4x Ponder

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Gurmag Angler
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x True-Name Nemesis

4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1x Darkblast / Fatal Push
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Flusterstorm
2x Invasive Surgery
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Make Obsolete
1x Marsh Casualties
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction

I am not 100% Sure about Make Obsolete, but it seems ok and it does what you need it to do.
The Darkblast can be replaced by a Fatal Push if one so wishes. I really like Darkblast and Diabolic Edict so I will keep those, but they are at the very least debateable.

[Stevestamopz]

I top 8'd a decently sized tournament with BURG last weekend, and wrote a report:

https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/02/01/id-love-a-delver-top-8-at-cancon-legucci-2016/

Maindeck Jitte is great.

[AfroSmile]

I top 8'd a decently sized tournament with BURG last weekend, and wrote a report:

https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/02/01/id-love-a-delver-top-8-at-cancon-legucci-2016/

Maindeck Jitte is great.

Thank you for your report. :-)

[TheManWithaPlan]

Managed to split in top 4 of a small 16 person Legacy event on Saturday on 4C Delver! I have considered adding Leovold somewhere in the 75, but don't own one and don't know if it is worth unloading the sack of cash to actually purchase one at this point. If I put it in the main I would probably cut a Snapcaster Mage for it.

Anyways, here's my list that I made top 4 with and a quick report, suggestions? I am pretty firm on what I have in the deck so if you are suggesting anything make a good argument for it.

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Gurmag Angler
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x True-Name Nemesis

3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Ponder
3x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare

2x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Baleful Strix
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Pithing Needle
2x Pyroblast
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sudden Demise
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
1x Winter Orb

R1: Loss W/R Prison 1-2 (ran Chandra, Nihiri Emrakul, Goblin Rabblemaster, Tangle Wire(!))
R2: Win Prison Twin 2-0 (Splinter Twin, ran Chalice, probably Blood Moon)
R3: Win Death&Taxes 2-0
R4: Win Shardless BUG 2-0
R5: Win Mono G 12 Post 2-0
T4: Split

[hofzge]

Sideboard
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Baleful Strix
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Pithing Needle
2x Pyroblast
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sudden Demise
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
1x Winter Orb

R1: Loss W/R Prison 1-2 (ran Chandra, Nihiri Emrakul, Goblin Rabblemaster, Tangle Wire(!))
R2: Win Prison Twin 2-0 (Splinter Twin, ran Chalice, probably Blood Moon)
R3: Win Death&Taxes 2-0
R4: Win Shardless BUG 2-0
R5: Win Mono G 12 Post 2-0
T4: Split

I would change the Sudden Demise/Izzet Staticster split as you have a lot of the same, but both don't touch True Name Nemesis (it seems you never played against it).
How about replacing the Izzet Staticaster with Make Obsolete (only needs :b: and can be Snapcastered).

Other than that you list looks solid. Maybe a bit light on post-board Storm hate (It seems you only played against Chalice and Fair Decks)

[theMonster]

I would change the Sudden Demise/Izzet Staticster split as you have a lot of the same, but both don't touch True Name Nemesis (it seems you never played against it).
How about replacing the Izzet Staticaster with Make Obsolete (only needs :b: and can be Snapcastered).

Other than that you list looks solid. Maybe a bit light on post-board Storm hate (It seems you only played against Chalice and Fair Decks)

I agree with hofzge and would argue that one Relic and the Winter Orb should be something else, too. Snapcaster is an integral part of your strategy, so you want to maximize your ability to use it. Orb makes that more difficult by choking you on mana, and you can't flashback Relic. If you're looking for Miracles/midrange hate, I'd suggest a Painful Truths or even an Invasive Surgery, which counters things like Terminus and Ancestral Vision while also hitting combo's payoff spells. You could even play a second True-Name or a Clique in the sideboard. The second Relic can easily become the third Surgical, too. But you also don't have a way to kill a large creature like Reality Smasher and are dead to a resolved Marit Lage, so I might find room for a Diabolic Edict or Go for the Throat or something. As far as the maindeck, I personally don't think Spell Pierce is great right now, but if it's working for you, keep it.

[TheManWithaPlan]

Thanks for the feedback guys!


Other than that you list looks solid. Maybe a bit light on post-board Storm hate (It seems you only played against Chalice and Fair Decks)

I have the Storm hate I need, plus I have a lot of counter magic main board against them. I have Flusterstorm, 2 Surgical, 2 Relic. The reason why I don't have many cards against combo in general, and more against the fair decks is that the combo matchups are generally good across the board and thus, I don't need much help in the post board games and that some fair matchups tend to be a bit more challenging for this deck.


I agree with hofzge and would argue that one Relic and the Winter Orb should be something else, too. Snapcaster is an integral part of your strategy, so you want to maximize your ability to use it. Orb makes that more difficult by choking you on mana, and you can't flashback Relic. If you're looking for Miracles/midrange hate, I'd suggest a Painful Truths or even an Invasive Surgery, which counters things like Terminus and Ancestral Vision while also hitting combo's payoff spells. You could even play a second True-Name or a Clique in the sideboard. The second Relic can easily become the third Surgical, too. But you also don't have a way to kill a large creature like Reality Smasher and are dead to a resolved Marit Lage, so I might find room for a Diabolic Edict or Go for the Throat or something. As far as the maindeck, I personally don't think Spell Pierce is great right now, but if it's working for you, keep it.

I like the suggestion of Diabolic Edict, I should try that one out. Thanks for the suggestion! Probably cutting Izzet Staticaster (I have 3 sweepers in my board!). I swear I had a Painful Truths in that slot.

As for Winter Orb I really like it as a way to combat Miracles, Aggro Loam, Lands, etc. As you state making Snapcaster Mage harder to use isn't really an issue to me. I had this come up on Friday night and what happened with the Winter Orb was that my Miracles opponent was far more affected by the Winter Orb than I was despite having a Snapcaster Mage in hand. What I observed from this is that I wanted to respond with Snapcaster Mage and a spell out of my graveyard to something that my opponent did, and since their game plan was more warped by the Winter Orb I had time to even pass a couple of turns with Snapcaster being live and is what allowed me to win the game. What I am saying is that in the matchups Winter Orb is good in, despite some of your mana hungry plays, it is generally damaging your opponent far more.

To your point about Relic of Progenitus, I actually use the first ability way more often than the ability to pop it. Even when I pop Relic I've either gotten the value out of Snapcaster already in fair games, or I pop it early and can refill my graveyard with new toys for Snapcaster. I would never cut even 1 just because I feel the need for powerful graveyard hate, and it has applications in Deathrite Shaman mirrors.

[Stevestamopz]

Hey Burgers,

I tried out Make Obselete last night, and I get the feeling that Sudden Demise vs Make Obselete will have to be a meta-call. For the current meta we are in a bit of a pickle because Demise is insane against Death and Taxes but Make Obselete is miles better against the Reid Duke deck. Both are mild against Elves, both are fantastic against Goblins etc. The 3 cmc was not an issue however and being an instant is very very nice.

I'm also curious on everyone's sideboarding plan vs Miracles.

My current practice is -4 Daze -2 FoW, -1 Spell Pierce +2 Red Blasts, +1 Sulfur +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Painful Truths + 1 Jitte. Overall the matchup feels very even but I don't think we're far away from having a legitimately favoured matchup against them.

List for reference:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tombstalker
2 True-Name Nemesis

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Ponder

4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Painful Truths
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

[TheManWithaPlan]

I'm also curious on everyone's sideboarding plan vs Miracles.

My current practice is -4 Daze -2 FoW, -1 Spell Pierce +2 Red Blasts, +1 Sulfur +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Painful Truths + 1 Jitte. Overall the matchup feels very even but I don't think we're far away from having a legitimately favoured matchup against them.

List for reference:

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Painful Truths
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

I don't know about Jitte but I have never tried it. I just don't like it in theory in a Delver deck in general.

I would be boarding in 2 Surgical Extraction to nab Terminus, and this is especially advantageous because you are playing 2 True-Name Nemesis in your deck. So once you Extract Terminus they are left with Swords to Plowshares to deal with your threats and maybe Council's Judgement, and Plow doesn't hit True Name. If you really like Jitte, I would go straight to cutting Bolts for extractions.

P.S. How is Umezawa's Jitte against Miracles, and in general? How often is it unable to equip to anything?

[Whitefaces]

I don't know about Jitte but I have never tried it. I just don't like it in theory in a Delver deck in general.

I would be boarding in 2 Surgical Extraction to nab Terminus, and this is especially advantageous because you are playing 2 True-Name Nemesis in your deck. So once you Extract Terminus they are left with Swords to Plowshares to deal with your threats and maybe Council's Judgement, and Plow doesn't hit True Name. If you really like Jitte, I would go straight to cutting Bolts for extractions.

P.S. How is Umezawa's Jitte against Miracles, and in general? How often is it unable to equip to anything?

I'm strongly against bringing in Surgical against Miracles. They need to have cast one already for you to be able to extract them, and then you're going a card down which really matters in this matchup. They still have StP and Engineered Explosives to deal with your threats. You can't afford to play something so reactive and situational.

VS Miracles with your list I'd board

-3 Daze
-2 Lightning Bolt
-2 Wasteland

It's also reasonable to take out an Underground Sea if you want to bring another card in.

+2 Painful Truths
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Sulfur Elemental
+1 Thoughtseize

Jitte is exceptional against Mentor, very bad vs Everything else. If you've seen Mentor game one, I'd bring it in over the Thoughtseize. Or if you see Mentor game two, bring it in for the third.

On Make Obsolete - it's been pretty good for me and earned a spot in the SB for now. I completely agree that it and Sudden Demise are a metagame call, there are a lot of TNN in the format at the moment so going with Obsolete. Marsh Casualties is fine too, I just prefer it being in instant and a single black.

[Manipulato]

I'm strongly against bringing in Surgical against Miracles. They need to have cast one already for you to be able to extract them, and then you're going a card down which really matters in this matchup. They still have StP and Engineered Explosives to deal with your threats. You can't afford to play something so reactive and situational.

VS Miracles with your list I'd board

-3 Daze
-2 Lightning Bolt
-2 Wasteland

It's also reasonable to take out an Underground Sea if you want to bring another card in.

+2 Painful Truths
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Sulfur Elemental
+1 Thoughtseize

Jitte is exceptional against Mentor, very bad vs Everything else. If you've seen Mentor game one, I'd bring it in over the Thoughtseize. Or if you see Mentor game two, bring it in for the third.

On Make Obsolete - it's been pretty good for me and earned a spot in the SB for now. I completely agree that it and Sudden Demise are a metagame call, there are a lot of TNN in the format at the moment so going with Obsolete. Marsh Casualties is fine too, I just prefer it being in instant and a single black.

I agree here to 100% with Whitefaces. The boarding plan with the surgicals + Jitte and so on is very poor...

[AfroSmile]

Hi everybody!

On tuesday on a weekly I tried the version without red with 3-4 fatal push and I was really disappointed of the card in a tempo shell.
I lost so much game because I can't just bolt the face of my opponent. So I directly come back to 4c Delver.

I did some result with my version of the deck this weekend. I did 2 trials for the eternal weekend Paris.
I finished first in the round and lost both time against Eldrazi.dec in the first round of the top4/8.

My list + Some comments:
// Lands, nothing special to say
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

// I never had such a good creature base, TNN feels incredibly great at the moment.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt // Never without it in a tempo shell!
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push // Could be Dismember or Diabolic Edict, I was hesitating but i followed the recommandation of a friend, Pdingo on the source and it payed off!! Incredibly good against creature decks. The combination with snapcaster mage (blocks) or just daze let me done some nice tricks that destroy my opponent tempo.
1 Painful Truth // Could be Leovold, but I preferred Truth, because of the immediate effect.
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umewaza Jitte // This card is INCREDIBLE!!! In combination with TNN, it is pretty much GG. I won against Eldrazi thanks to it.
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfur Elemental // Flex slot, I decide to make it oriented against D&T and Miracle. This card shines in these matchup, especially D&T where I can equip him with Jitte.

Saturday - Legacy of Lausanne 8 (12 people): 4W, 1 ID -> top 4, lost
R1: Belcher 2-0
R2: Eldrazi 2-1
R3: BUG Delver 2-0
R4: Grixis Control 2-0
R5: Goblins ID
First in standings
Top4: Eldrazi 0-2 (Too agressive start for me. For example, G2: T1, Eye of Ugin, Mimic, Endless One 2/2, Endless One 2/2. T2, Thought-Knot Seer = GG)

Sunday - GamePlace, 1K Legacy (47 people): 5W, 1L -> top 8, lost
R1: Dredge 0-2 (I should mulligan more aggressively into more hate)
R2: Goblins 2-0
R3: D&T 2-0 (G1: Early Delver + TNN, G2: TNN + Jitte)
R4: 4c Loam 2-0 (G1: Delver + DS, G2: TNN + Jitte, Opponent was doing full both time)
R5: 4c Loam 2-1 (G1: Opponent arrived late -> Game Loss, G2: He won clearly, G3: I did some weird choice to screw him (pithing needle on shaman in order to disable his shaman while wasting his only land)
R6: Eldrazi 2-0 (Twitch featured -> 3:52:30) (Jitte did the job, it was incredible)
First in standings
Top8: Taxes&Eldrazi 1-2 (Twitch Featured -> 4:42:00) (Again jitte was incredible and matches were close)

You may see the featured video there: https://www.twitch.tv/gameplacelucerne/videos/all
I have to watch them in order to see, if I did some mistakes.

[Whitefaces]

Nice results man! I've been playing the Dark Thresh deck a lot lately, and like you say, Push is certainly no Bolt especially when playing with Snapcasters. I feel like you're right to stay 4c, your build looks great. Only thing I'm a little unsure on is the 3 Pierces like we've chatted about before, feel like it could be something else. Maybe a Counterspell.

I watched some of the stream vs Eldrazi, Jitte was a beast there! I'll check out the DnT match a bit later. Very nice looking deck too.

I'll be at the Paris Eternal Weekend in March if you (or any other Burgers!) will be there?

[AfroSmile]

Nice results man! I've been playing the Dark Thresh deck a lot lately, and like you say, Push is certainly no Bolt especially when playing with Snapcasters. I feel like you're right to stay 4c, your build looks great. Only thing I'm a little unsure on is the 3 Pierces like we've chatted about before, feel like it could be something else. Maybe a Counterspell.

I watched some of the stream vs Eldrazi, Jitte was a beast there! I'll check out the DnT match a bit later. Very nice looking deck too.

I'll be at the Paris Eternal Weekend in March if you (or any other Burgers!) will be there?

Dark Thresh looks like the very first version of 4c Delver. The version with nimble mangoose. If you didn't know about it just take a look at the old archives about bUrg Delver. The deck started from RUG Delver with Deathrite Shaman and 2 Decay. In such tempo build, I still prefer bolt in order to kill my opponent.

I finished pimping it last year, but now I may buy Fatal Push, but the card is totally overpriced at the moment.
I'm looking into pimping TNN, but I don't know how. I don't like playing with alteration and it isn't exist Foil TNN. :'(

I just check the last match again and I saw that I made a huge missplay at the very end of the game. I don't have to block the Thalia with my Deathrite Shaman equiped with Jitte, because I can just gain life.
The next 2 cards I'll draw would be Delver and then TNN. Maybe I wouln'd have won anyway, but these draws may result in another player winning the game.

Sure I'll be in Paris and you know already the deck I'm bringing with me.

[AfroSmile]

Hi everybody,

Today I won a Trials for Eternal Weekend with the same decklist as last week. There were 18 people.

R1: 2-1 Dragon Stompy, Game 1&3 were won with early delver.
R2: 2-0 Eureka&Tell
R3: 1-2 Rwg Goblins, Game were close, but I feel it is a bad matchup depending on the version. Jitte is incredible.
R4: 1-2 Taxes&Drazi, G1&G2, Chalice@1 were painful. I won G2 with Delver + Tempo and finish with TNN. G3, he begins with T1 Stonefore->Jitte, T2:Battleskrull. I try to tempo in order to draw TNN+Jitte. When I found TNN he just council's judgement for the win.
R5: 2-1 Shardless BUG, I loose G1. G2&G3: TNN got there. G3 was complicated with a lot of creature of his side, but TNN + Jitte is too good.

I barely made in the top 8.

Quarter-Final: 2-0 Miracle of Pdingo (Nakama, team mate of mine aka Kaiba-san), G1: Put Delver and protect it until I win. G2: Was close. A Deathrite Shaman put the first 10 damage and then a delver did the rest with a finishing with a fresh topdecked Lightning Bolt (The card is amazing for finishing your opponent).
Semi-Final: 2-0 Bant (2 TNN, 3 Knight of the Reliquary and stone forge package), Mana denial got there both game. 1st Game with Delver + Gurmag, 2nd with T2 TNN (with DS).
Final: 2-1 Dragon Stompy (Another one), I won G1 with Delver & DS (additionally he mulled to 5). He won game 2 with a well placed Blood moon. G3 were won with 2 Delver.

I finally get the 2 byes for Paris. The deck feels incredible good and funny to play. I slowly feel the inconsistency between the tempo plan and the midrange plan, but it is okay if you understand it and can take advantage of it. Jitte is the best sideboard card in creature match up. The card is so good, that I may switch 1 into maindeck.

Spell Pierce were ok, but not incredible. They shined against Miracle and Eureka. There were good/ok against Dragon Stompy. In the other matches, they were bad.
But they feel like necessary evil for spell-based matchup like Storm, Show&Tell or Reanimator.
I may try to play a Counterspell instead a Spell Pierce. I may be really good.

[MXG]

After screwing around with different decks for a while (BUG Control, BUG Thresh, 4c Control, Grixis Delver, etc), I finally came back to Old Faithful and immediately 5-0'd, beating Doomsday, MonoRed Painter, BG Depths, Death & Taxes, and BUG Control. List below:

Creatures: 16

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler

Inst/Sorc: 25

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push

Lands: 19

8 Blue Fetches
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard: 15

2 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sudden Demise
1 Ancient Grudge

I really, really like this configuration, and the fun-off Garruk Relentless more than pulled its weight. Other than Burn, UR Delver, and Blood Moon decks, I don't really fear anything with this build.

[Jaytron]

Running the fairly standard 60 (1 pierce 2 TS main, instead of 3 pierce), looking at this for my SB:

3 Surgical
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
1 Edict
2 Jitte
1 Leo
1 K-Command
1 Pierce
1 Painful Truths
1 Pithing Needle

I'm sort of settled on this, but I'm debating on hedging more against DnT, as the last large event, it was everywhere.

However, I already think the TS/Push/Jitte/K-Command are great against DnT already. I likely don't need another hoser such as dread or Sulfur Ele?

[Theonlyone]

Hello, I'm running lately the version of Ben Friedman during the last legacy gp. My current metagame : miracles, MUD, elves, bug delver, stormand Aluren.
I don't manage to beat MUD (with forgemaster/wurmcoil...) with this list :
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Badlands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island


1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Thoughtseize
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Painful Truths
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

What would we like to board in versus Mud? What to board out? How to play this match up?

[Stevestamopz]

Not sure if this is the place to post such nonsense, but I've tried re-configuring BURG with Fatal Push into being more Grixis then true 4 colour, but still maintaining the same identity as BURG (because grixis delver is abysmal IMO).

I have really enjoyed playing this list, the maindeck feels just spot on. The early and midgames are just so fantastic thanks to Stifle and Tombstalker respectively. The sideboard is true mess at the moment though. I would love for the Ancient Grudge to be the 2nd Abrupt Decay but with only 1 Tropical it's just a bit sketchy. Apologies if this should be posted in the Grixis or Team America threads, but I would love to get some thoughts from the BURGer team.

//Creature (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tombstalker
2 True-Name Nemesis

//Instant (25)
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

//Sorcery (4)
4 Ponder

//Land (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Make Obsolete
SB: 2 Painful Truths
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

[Draggo]

Not sure if this is the place to post such nonsense, but I've tried re-configuring BURG with Fatal Push into being more Grixis then true 4 colour, but still maintaining the same identity as BURG (because grixis delver is abysmal IMO).


Without green cards main deck, this is just a Grixis list (Grixis often plays 1-3 green cards side becouse of the Trop main deck).
Seems a bit slower oriented then the Stifle Grixis lists I see flying around since you are using 2 TNN and 1 SCM.
I actually like the 4 bolt/2 push in my Grixis list since in provides with a bit more awnsers then it used to have with less life-loss when you compair it with Dismemers.

But to come back to your list: to me it seems that you are missing out on the Decays that makes BURG what it is. A catch-more-delver-deck then the usual 3 color combinations that miss either bolt or decay.

[Theonlyone]

Hello, I've been testing some rug and bug delver lately and bug disappointed me against storm, Rug against miracles.
Is this delver version the one I need? My metagame : aluren, storm, bug delver, elves, miracles, MUD, reanimator, Sneak and lol?
Is this deck still viable for a bigger tournament?
Has anyone updated Friedman's list?
Is there a recent article about the viability of delver lately?
In advance, thanks....

[AfroSmile]

Hello, I've been testing some rug and bug delver lately and bug disappointed me against storm, Rug against miracles.
Is this delver version the one I need? My metagame : aluren, storm, bug delver, elves, miracles, MUD, reanimator, Sneak and lol?
Is this deck still viable for a bigger tournament?
Has anyone updated Friedman's list?
Is there a recent article about the viability of delver lately?
In advance, thanks....

If you don't recognize yourself in BUG, RUG or Grixis. I think you are in the right thread.
I think this deck is viable, but maybe it is not the wining strategy at the moment, because of all these midrangy decks.

My actual decklist is the following:
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
8 blue fetches
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Mix of Fatal Push, Diabolic Edict and Dismember.
2 Pyroblast
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm

I don't think it exist a right decklist, but it exist a lot and you just have to pick the right one for you.
I hope it helps you a little bit.

[Theonlyone]

First, thanks for the nice answer. As the midrangy decks, do you mean : 4c control, bug delver, aluren and food chain because of 4 decays/ x fatal pushes and 4 strixes? What can a delver play in his 75 to have a better/even MU against those?

[blablub]

Play Snares and Hooting Mandrills. Then its ok to 2 fo r1 with strixes with your Removal because Mandrills make 75 % of their deck useless. Trample is so huge against Nemesis and Stuff. The biggest problem is that the Delve-Creatures are soo bad against Miracles :(

[MXG]

Hey everyone. I had a lot of downtime this weekend so I could actually play some MTGO leagues. I managed to run 4 leagues with the list below, and ended up 18-2 in overall matches. I should have been 19-1, except I got really excited, and punted the last turn of the deciding game in a marvelous fashion, but I digress. The deck is insane, and its only bad matchups are decks that run 2 or more basic Mountains. Even then, you can (and I did) win them.

Here's the list I played:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB:

1 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
2 Forked Bolt
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Sudden Demise
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique

A couple of notes:

- 2 Volcanic Island (i.e. no Badlands): This was a decision based on having no Thoughtseize in the maindeck (i.e. flex disruption slots are all countermagic). This meant I wanted every land to tap for blue.

- Misty Rainforest and Polluted Delta as fetches: These are the most ambiguous fetches, as they're used in every BUG deck. Opening with one of these does not motivate your opponent to play around Daze, while Scalding Tarn and Flooded Strand do.

- 2 Forked Bolt in the SB: This was done in response to the rising popularity of Czech Pile, as well as being insane vs Elves, DnT, and other Delver decks. I think this is where flex removal wants to be.

- No Leovold, no Snapcaster Mage: I love both of these cards very much, and while their utility and card-advantage is absolutely insane, they didn't quite pack enough "oomph" to make the cut. They're very, very good, and belong in many decks, such as Czech Pile, but this deck needs each card to be a little more backbreaking. Leovold and SCM just weren't connecting for damage often enough in this deck, where that statistic really matters.

Let me know what you think of the deck, and if you have any questions about the deck or how I approach any matchups, ask away.

[blablub]

I like your List MXG :)

What are we gonna play now? Do you guys stay towards the more Midrangey Nemesis Builds or do you go back to Goyfs and Stifle like the Signorini List from Gp Columbus?

[FZA]

Hey everyone. I had a lot of downtime this weekend so I could actually play some MTGO leagues. I managed to run 4 leagues with the list below, and ended up 18-2 in overall matches. I should have been 19-1, except I got really excited, and punted the last turn of the deciding game in a marvelous fashion, but I digress. The deck is insane, and its only bad matchups are decks that run 2 or more basic Mountains. Even then, you can (and I did) win them.

Here's the list I played:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB:

1 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
2 Forked Bolt
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Sudden Demise
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique

A couple of notes:

- 2 Volcanic Island (i.e. no Badlands): This was a decision based on having no Thoughtseize in the maindeck (i.e. flex disruption slots are all countermagic). This meant I wanted every land to tap for blue.

- Misty Rainforest and Polluted Delta as fetches: These are the most ambiguous fetches, as they're used in every BUG deck. Opening with one of these does not motivate your opponent to play around Daze, while Scalding Tarn and Flooded Strand do.

- 2 Forked Bolt in the SB: This was done in response to the rising popularity of Czech Pile, as well as being insane vs Elves, DnT, and other Delver decks. I think this is where flex removal wants to be.

- No Leovold, no Snapcaster Mage: I love both of these cards very much, and while their utility and card-advantage is absolutely insane, they didn't quite pack enough "oomph" to make the cut. They're very, very good, and belong in many decks, such as Czech Pile, but this deck needs each card to be a little more backbreaking. Leovold and SCM just weren't connecting for damage often enough in this deck, where that statistic really matters.

Let me know what you think of the deck, and if you have any questions about the deck or how I approach any matchups, ask away.

I like this list, I might try it out the next time I get a chance to play.

I think it's worth thinking about whether or not green is worth it anymore though, if you're only using it for 2 abrupt decay and 1 sideboard Garruk.

[theMonster]

MXG, I think your take on Delver is interesting and looks really powerful. I'm curious about what you thought of the maindeck Strix. You mention cards like Leovold and Snapcaster not pulling their weight as far as killing the opponent, yet Strix - as great as it is, no need to list its superlatives - is a 1/1 for two mana. Wouldn't Goyf be better to execute that game plan? Yeah, it makes the mana more awkward, doesn't cantrip, doesn't stare down Griselbrand, etc., but it hits hard and is a better threat against combo. I play paper Magic, so perhaps Strix fares better in the online metagame. Just curious about your thoughts on the card in this shell, based on your last 20 matches - congrats on the great showing, by the way.

Thanks a lot!

[Wendiger_Mungo]

MXG, I think your take on Delver is interesting and looks really powerful. I'm curious about what you thought of the maindeck Strix. You mention cards like Leovold and Snapcaster not pulling their weight as far as killing the opponent, yet Strix - as great as it is, no need to list its superlatives - is a 1/1 for two mana. Wouldn't Goyf be better to execute that game plan? Yeah, it makes the mana more awkward, doesn't cantrip, doesn't stare down Griselbrand, etc., but it hits hard and is a better threat against combo. I play paper Magic, so perhaps Strix fares better in the online metagame. Just curious about your thoughts on the card in this shell, based on your last 20 matches - congrats on the great showing, by the way.

Thanks a lot!

I think the role the strixes play is to help you executing the control role you have to play from time to time, its not there to clock your opponent since there are enough aggressive threats alrdy in this build. imo i would look at them more as a replacement for additional pierces/thoughtseizes/removal (since it blocks anglers and goyfs pretty well :tongue: ) or sth along these lines instead of additional threats

[Qweerios]

Hi!

I play 4c Delver with 4 Goyfs, 2 TNN, 1 Leovold as my creatures #9-15 and 2 Fatal Push, 1 Dismember, 1 Stifle, and 2 Thoughtseize as my flex slots. I also play 3 Trops and a Badlands in my configuration for SB Decay and Golgari Charm. I am currently 18-4-0 with my current list after several weekly tournaments involving 30-40 players. My losses have been to SneakShow twice and Shardless BUG.

It is my understanding that the Friedman list became somewhat of a Grixis Delver deck now that Decay is no longer necessary. I think this deck still has a place simply because it combine Delver, DRS, Goyf and Bolt with the best blue disruption for fast and efficient beatdown. I am looking for some opinions on certain cards:

TNN, Leovold, Gurmag/Mandrill?

I started playing the deck with a 2/2 Leo/Snap split and quickly realized that Snap was almost always better off as a TNN. The more I play Delver, the more I want my creatures to end the game on their own. Leovold is a sweet card with insane abilities but it simply doesn't dig me out of a bad spot like a TNN or a Delve creature would so my reasoning of Leovold in a Delver shell is currently: "Why am I not playing more disruption instead?". The other side of this reasoning is valid as well because Leovold allows my disruption to beat my opponent down. I believe Leo falls shorts in this deck both as a beater(too small) and a disruption piece (too slow). Now which do you choose between TNN, Gurmag and Mandrill? Which do you think would complement DRS/Delver/Goyf best as beaters #1-3? I am thinking something along the lines of 1 Delve creature maximum to avoid unecessary tension and 1-2 TNN/Leovold. Do I even need TNN if I can enable Delve creatures in such a shell? Given that I can play Gurmag or Mandrill, which is better? +1/+1 vs. 1 less Delve and Trample, how often is one more relevant than the other if I can only pack one?

How many Sorceries do I need to make Goyf good? I currently play 2 Thoughtseize because I find it's a great way to diversify your disruption and get a sorcery in the yard while taking away a threat or removal spell. Thoughtseize however has some tension with Dismember and would love to play a 2nd copy. Gitaxian Probe as a 1-2of seem to me a great way to buff the sorcery count and to enable 1-2 Delve creatures. Even Preordain sounds legit.

How much removal should I aim for? Perhaps with better threats I don't need 7 removal spells but I don't think I want to go below 6. What is the optimal combination?

How much combo disruption should I aim for mainboard? I dislike Spell Pierce as it is simply too situational and underpowered compared to a card like Thoughtseize. Stifle is a favorite of mine but suffers from a similar condition as Spell Pierce. The first copy is often very good or pitches to FoW and every subsequent copy tends to have seriously diminishing returns. For these reasons I've always played those cards as singletons. With 4 Daze/4FoW/2TS/1Stifle should I try to fit in a Pierce? Swap the Stifle for a 3rd TS and favor Push over Dismember? Maybe just replace Stifle with Pierce?

Let me know what you think and why. Thanks!

[Jonathan Alexander]

So after not having played any BURG since Dig Through time got banned, I picked it up again recently thanks to Ethan Gaieski. I definitely enjoyed his Delver / Snapcaster version, but I ended up cutting the Delvers and play this:

//Creature
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

//Instant
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

//Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Badlands
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

//Sorcery
1 Life from the Loam
2 Night's Whisper
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Counterspell
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Fatal Push
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Kolaghan's Command
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Blazing Volley

If you have any questions regarding the list, make sure to catch both deck tech videos I did; you can catch those along with the matches I recorded here: “Complete” 4C Delver/less Playlist — #thedailywars #28-33 (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/complete-4c-delverless-playlist-thedailywars-28-33/). Unfortunately, the video files for my last two matches in the second leagues were corrupted and the Magic Online replays don't work either, so I couldn't upload them. I ended up beating Grixis Delver and Storm in the last two rounds, in case you were wondering.

If there's anything you'd like to know that isn't covered in the videos, go ahead and ask, I'll keep checking out this thread for the next few days.

[Plague Sliver]

Why play green just for Decay? Honest question, since you've definitely played fatal pushes in the past. Why stretch to four colors, is it just for chalice decks?

[Jonathan Alexander]

I would question the green splash without Loam in the deck, but Loam does so much work in Delver mirrors and against a bunch of random things. If I ever go back to the deck, I might try a lighter presence of green cards though.

[tescrin]

I assume the green splash is for Goyfs and the Red is for Bolts, while the black is for DRS. This is still the "all the things" deck, but I think if you drop the decays you can have RUG with DRS; which seems fine. DRS allows the most broken plays you can get where you do something like T1-DRS, T2-Waste, Killspell, Delver or T1 DRS + Daze, T2-Waste +Goyf. Also, against Combo, T1 DRS -> T2 Bolt + Activation if they don't do anything is 5 damage, not a bad clock on T2.

DRS opens up the ability to tempo your opponent a bunch, while Goyf and Delver are still the fastest and most reliable beats in the game. Bolt allows you the luxury of Delver + double bolt as a classic insta-gib on T5 or so. I don't know if pure RUG will see itself coming back, but this deck can easily become RUG + DRS - Goose.

Lastly, RUG misses the best early game interaction with Goyf, which is Thoughtseize. Taking a card nets Goyf to a minimum 3/4 most of the time when he plops and puts you on two axis of interaction for combo.

I think that's where this deck wants to be if it's going to be a thing with all the Push decks. Goyf is still The Dude a lot of the time, though figuring out the Gurmag problem is a thing. Might be worth finding an incidental Goyf pump like Liliana or another bomby 3-drop that can not only solve the Gurmag issue, but pump goyf if things don't work out.


IMO something like

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
2 Gurmag/Goose/TNN/Mandrills

4 Bolt
2 Push
3-4 Thoughtsieze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3-4 Daze
4 Force


17-18 lands


Probably adjust a bit, but that seems like it'll punch your life total down pretty quick.

[Qweerios]

I've been playing all flavors of Delver recently and have been very successful with my 5c Tribal Flames/Nacatl/Delver/Deathrite/Mandrills/Snap pile. I've been tearing through most non-Depths and non-Moon decks for 6 weeks until I came to a sudden stop. Czech Pile and Grixis Control (with Moon) have been utterly destroying all of my Delver attemps with their multiple Bolts, Pushes, Decays, Edicts, Strixes and Snaps. It has come to a point where I can't even connect once with a Deathrite, double Nacatl, and Delver opener! Push, Strix, Snap Push is too common... There is just no reason to play Nacatl over Mongoose if I can't get through with an explosive start anymore.

I think it's time for me to put down the Tribal Flames and Nacatls and go back to Mongoose and Wasteland. Nimble Mongoose seems particularly strong right now with all these removal spells and Strixes flying around making the Goyf and Chalice decks cry. However, I still believe RUG is missing out on Deathrite so I think bUrg is where the Mongoose is at. Also, bUrg with Mongoose might be a good home for Chart a Course!

Here's the list I've made for my next tournament. Let me know what you think!


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
//SB
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle


A bit about the card choices...

-I opted for 2 TNN as my threats #13-14 because they act as Mongoose #5-6. A late TNN does more for my gameplan than a Goyf, is easier to cast than a Leovold, and doesn't eat away at my GY like a Gurmag or Mandrill would.

-I chose to play 2 Decays mainboard in order to make sideboard space. Decay is not the most optimal removal spell but it is so versatile that it can still be argued for as a complement to Bolt and Dismember. I could definitely see an argument for Push/Dismember over Decay mainboard and fit Decay in the SB.

-The 2 Preordains were originally Stifles or Spell Snares (bonkers against Strix/Snap!) but I grew tired of situational cards rotting in my hand while Mongoose wanted a couple cards for his threshold. Preordains are simply good in a 4c deck that runs on very few lands and has such a high quality sideboard. I could see this slot being challenged by Chart a Course. Chart is a good GY filler for Mongoose and DRS while also digging for key cards and even possibly giving us some CA. Double the cost is a serious drawback that needs to be considered through.

-Two Leos in the board is a way for me to bring in hatebears against Combo (when I side out threats) and Control decks (increasing my threat density). I'm not sure but I think the 2nd Leo is better than having a Cage.

-I insisted on a pair of Edicts for Depths, Reanimator, Delver, and Chalice Aggro decks where my Bolt/Decay/Dismember combination might be lacking. This is one of the main reasons I squeezed Decays main instead of packing them in the SB.

-I went down to 1 Golgari Charm as a complement to Decay against Blood Moon and Edicts against TNN. I wouldn't feel safe without a -1/-1 effect against Elves, DnT and Belcher...

-Only 1 KCommand even though a second copy would be great. Being red and 3 mana competes with Leovold#2. I diversified my grinding package by adding a Sylvan Library instead.

-I've always had mixed results with Loam as it is either amazing or underwhelming. I could always play something else instead.

Would it be an overkill to play 4 Bolts, 2 Dismembers, and 2 Decays mainboard? I feel like making way for Mongoose with removal is important and I don't want any DRS, Gurmags or Goyfs to come piss on my parade.

[blablub]

Do you have any success with it? against Pile you should be good, because of shroud but i fear that this creaturebase gets problems with the not so common MUs because Mungooses are a lil bit slow. I am testing a Goyf-Version with Snapcasters to compete with the 4c Decks and two Bitterblossom in the SB as additional Threads. Goyf is soooo good against the Grixis-Delver Mirror and im playin Strixes in the SB to get my goyfs bigger then Angler.

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Snapcaster
the 16 blue spells
3 Pierce ( maybe a split with Snare/Counterspell is better)
4 Bolt
3 additional Removal Spells (not sure if 3 Decays are needed)

19 Land

SB: 3 Strix 2 Blossom 2 Red Blast 2 Surgical 2 Flusterstorm 1 Grudge 1 Forked Bolt 2 Golgari Charm


It looks good because its really streamlined. Im not sure if this is enough to beat the 4c Decks.

[Qweerios]

Do you have any success with it? against Pile you should be good, because of shroud but i fear that this creaturebase gets problems with the not so common MUs because Mungooses are a lil bit slow. I am testing a Goyf-Version with Snapcasters to compete with the 4c Decks and two Bitterblossom in the SB as additional Threads. Goyf is soooo good against the Grixis-Delver Mirror and im playin Strixes in the SB to get my goyfs bigger then Angler.

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Snapcaster
the 16 blue spells
3 Pierce ( maybe a split with Snare/Counterspell is better)
4 Bolt
3 additional Removal Spells (not sure if 3 Decays are needed)

19 Land

SB: 3 Strix 2 Blossom 2 Red Blast 2 Surgical 2 Flusterstorm 1 Grudge 1 Forked Bolt 2 Golgari Charm


It looks good because its really streamlined. Im not sure if this is enough to beat the 4c Decks.

Hey blablub!

Yeah I've had some success with the list. I went to a really small weekly on my first go with the deck (same list I posted but with a 2nd Dismember over the 2nd Preordain and +1 Tormod's Crypt in the SB over a Leo) and it went well:

2-0 Manaless Dredge
2-0 Lands
2-1 Merfolk

I knew the guy on manaless Dredge so I had a big advantage going into the matchup. He punted G2 that he should have won. Manaless Dredge is a rough matchup for us. The 6 shroud creatures were amazing against Lands and I felt like I couldn't possibly lose if I kept making land drops. G2 my opponent got utterly dominated. Merfolk was very hard as my creatures have no fat and the 2 Dismembers did cost me 6 life per game. I was lucky the guy was new to Legacy because I don't think I would have made it without his missplays.

After this tournament I went to a 25ish player weekly tournament with a couple of changes to the deck (-1 TNN, -1 Dismember(down to 1), +2 Goyf main, -1 Leo (down to 0), -1 Crypt, +1 TNN, +1 Cage side). It went as follows:

2-0 Jeskai Stoneblade
2-1 Team America
2-1 Junk Nic Fit with Dark Depths
2-0 Esper MentorBlade with Thopter Combo

Good news is I tied for first place. Jeskai stumbled on mana G1 with the wrong basics. G2 I dominated him with a pair of Mongoose and the right answers. Team America is an abysmal matchup as they have bigger threats and better removal. I won my games off of Wasteland and timely counters with removal and managed to ride a Mongoose/TNN. G3 I won with 3 Wastes and dug for a Loam. I think I was incredibly lucky not to see a single Hymn and the game that I lost was definitely due to a Goyf and Delver overload with counter backup that my double Mongeese hand couldn't handle. I punted twice G1 against Nic Fit because I was chatting too much but I got my serious face on for G2-3 and I won G3 almost entirely on the back of Cage. I got a Delver opener with Daze and Waste in the last round and took G1. G2 was tight but I manage to race Thopter/Sword/Jitte for exactsies with a Delver, a TNN, and a DRS.

Overall Mongoose was good but not great. More TNN would have been similar as I did not face any Czech Pile (the only other 4-0 players were on Czech Pile/Team America). There are 2 Team America players in my meta I have to watch out for and Mongoose is not where I want to be unless I am packing a heavy removal package. It's interesting to note that DRS and Mongoose go well together as I haven't run into any GY tension. Also, in a DRS deck, Mongoose comes alive at about the same time a TNN would land so Mongoose's main purpose is as additional TNN copies unless you are playing an extremely "low-to-the-ground" approach where you always want mana open even when you cast threats (Stifle, Snares). TNN was boarded in for every matchup! Goyf is cool but so lackluster against anything that isn't Delver.dec with Bolt as its main removal, Burn, and Chalice aggro. The playstyle of small-shroud-creatures tempo vs. big-creature tempo is more about saving counters for big creatures and letting removal slide rather than countering removal and removing creatures. Also, I was hesitant at first with the pair of Decays main but I've decided to adopt them because they would always be sided in anyways. I don't like multiple Dismembers and Fatal Push is overkill on removal if I pack Edicts in the SB for TNN/Gurmags/Marrit Lage as well as Decays in the SB for Moons and Equipments. I think the most important takeaway from this experiment is that I would have been better off with something like 2 Delve creatures and 3 TNN as my 5 shroud creatures rather than 4 Mongoose and 1 TNN. Decay is also a valuable tool in my meta and the main reason for me to splash green.

On to your deck:

I think 4 Goyf is too many. I really appreciate the card when it is good but I find that Goyf only really shines against very specific decks where the creatures are smaller than Goyf and the removal doesn't hit Goyf (Grixis Delver, Burn, UR Delver, and various Chalice Stompy decks). Goyf is terrible against every dedicated control deck in the format because all of their removal hits it at a tempo loss for us (Grixis Ctrl, Czech Pile, Blade). Unfortunately, Goyf has been outclassed by Gurmag and Stalker as far as GY-abusing fat vanilla threats by virtue of their immunity to Push and Decay on top of Bolt. For these reasons I don't like to play more than 2-3 copies of Goyf. If you do insist on playing Goyf, I suggest a Seal of Fire or Dead Weight mainboard or sideboard if you want your Goyfs to outsize Gurmags. Seal and Weight, unlike Strix, cannot be exiled by DRS. I don't think Gurmag is common enough to go to such lengths to deal with it though. I find that a few Edicts, counterspells, and a reliable clock gets there. Also, any amount of Strix in the SB will deal with all of the matchups where Goyf shines. Strix is the most powerful roadblock to any aggressive legacy deck out there.

3 Snapcasters for a Delver deck is not something I am fond of, especially if your targets include Dismember, Decay, and Counterspell which are all too expensive to flashback. I always found TNN to be more reliable as I don't want to be the one fighting for card advantage when my opponent is playing Snap, Strix and KCommand. Card advantage is a battle we cannot win against these decks. Think about it, we play the same deck except that they ditch the Delvers for Strixes and the soft counters and wastes for more removal and more lands... a couple of TNN mainboard will give you more grinding potential than 3 Snapcasters I can assure you. The upside of Snap is having additional threats that don't get sided out (ever) against combo decks. I simply find that having Snaps doesn't do enough to improve my combo matchups compared to what TNN does to improve my aggro and control matchups. Note that this is coming from a guy who really dislikes TNN as a card and loves everything about Snapcaster.

Spell Pierce is a great card but has some serious overlap with Daze and FoW against non-blue aggro decks. I personally don't like playing more than 1-2 copies unless I expect a lot of control and combo decks (especially fast ones). I agree with you that a single Snare or Counterspell would be more desirable than a 3rd Pierce. Spell Snare is very good right now against all the Strix/Snap control decks, especially if you intend on taking the Goyf route.

While Blossom is a great card right now against all of the control decks, it is seriously limited by a few factors. Multiples are garbage because of the life cost, and the card is extremely narrow in application when compared to its main alternative: TNN. I think Blossom is a great addition as a singleton SB card against control decks given that you are already saturated in TNN. TNN is simply more reliable against all of the aggro decks in the format while also being as devastating as Blossoms against the premier control decks.

For the slots you proposed in your deck I would do something like this:

4 DRS (core)
4 Delver (core)
2-3 Goyf (fast threat that gives you an edge against aggressive decks and a cheap clock that won't need to be replaced against combo. Terrible against control)
2-3 TNN (best top-of-curve threat. Backbreaking against everything non-combo.)
1-2 Gurmag (better version of Goyf and pseudo TNN against a lot of matchups)

4 Bolts
2-3 Abrupt Decay
0-1 Dismember
1 Spell Snare/Counterspell (Snare if you play a Badlands/Taiga. Counterspell if you play only blue duals)
2 Spell Pierce

Perhaps a Preordain over the 3rd removal or 3rd counter would be desirable as you only have 4 Ponders to enable Sorcery for Goyf. Cantrips are never dead cards, they are great at feeding DRS and Delve creatures, and 9 Cantrips is the magic number for the best odds of having exactly 1 copy in your opener... Just sayin'

Going forward I think a TNN and Gurmag/Stalker combination with no more than a few Goyfs is where I want to be. I would gladly play a Team America deck forfeiting green for red with Bolts, Hymns, Stalkers and TNNs but I don't think I am ready to give up on Decays yet and playing it all is unrealistic. Loam and Golgari Charm as SB singletons are also difficult to give up on as they shore up so many of our weaknesses.

Let me know of your experiences with the deck as I am really looking into optimizing it again.

[blablub]

Well the decision Pro Goyf was an argument for my Meta because unfortunatly there are a lot of budget choices. Otherwise you are correct with your points i guess. If you have problems with your Mongoose-Build against TA try some Snares i would say.

If you cut Mongoose and go for 2 Angler 3 Nemesis or something like that you have the Friedman-List which is a little bit slower and then you have the same problem which you mentioned towards my Snapcasters. You try to grind against a deck which will do this allways better

its really complicated for delver at moment i think :(

[Qweerios]

Well the decision Pro Goyf was an argument for my Meta because unfortunatly there are a lot of budget choices. Otherwise you are correct with your points i guess. If you have problems with your Mongoose-Build against TA try some Snares i would say.

If you cut Mongoose and go for 2 Angler 3 Nemesis or something like that you have the Friedman-List which is a little bit slower and then you have the same problem which you mentioned towards my Snapcasters. You try to grind against a deck which will do this allways better

its really complicated for delver at moment i think :(

First thank you for your insight. It is indeed complicated for Delver decks, which is why it is interresting. ;)

Concerning Snares against TA, I am not convinced it is the best I could do for the matchup. Drawing a reactive answer to Hymn or Goyf isn't exactly stellar when the damage has already been done. They only have Goyf and Hymn that can be Snared and that's not enough for my taste. If anything I see drawing extra cards (Strix, Truths, Snap) as a better way to fight Hymn. Sticking with Mongoose means I need answers to Goyf and DRS so that screams for Push/Decay. Playing Snap and Push mainboard sounds like a reasonable way to keep playing Mongoose in that matchup. I also like the Gurmag approach because Gurmag is a virtual TNN/Mongoose in a lot of matchups and also acts as a Goyf in other matchups. Team America is one of those matchups where Gurmag is both a supergoyf and a Mongoose at the same time (AKA: a really good answer/plan). If Goyf was Mongoose's only road block I would gladly be packing additional removal and Snaps. However, opposing Gurmags and Batterskull are also relevant threats that Mongoose doesn't trump and that packing Gurmag and more TNN actually do.

About the Friedman configuration, I think playing at least 2 Gurmags and 2 TNN main with an extra Blossom/TNN SB is an attempt to preserve that 5-6 Mongoose configuration against the premiere control decks of the meta. I also believe it is the most sensible approach as well because those are arguably the best threats in the format at the moment. To assess your point about the slowness of this configuration I would add that you can always speed it up by throwing 2-3 Goyfs in the mix for a total of 14-15 threats. It is important to note that Mongoose is incredibly passive, comes down later and is smaller than Gurmag. Therefore it is much less aggressive. Also, there are plenty of TNN line of plays that are very aggressive. Here's a fairly common scenario: play a T1 DRS that gets bolted, a T2 cantrip to fix your land drops and bolt their delver/drs, and a T3 TNN with Daze/FoW backup is effectively giving you an unmanageable clock on an empty board. Who cares what removal or counters your opponent draws anymore. Now that's aggression even though it occured typically late by Legacy standards.

Finally, grinding against control decks is inevitable. If we could reliably prevent our opponents from playing lands, we would win against every deck that plays fetches and duals. The axis on which we grind is what's relevant for us. Delver and DRS are setting the tone and require our opponents playing the fair game to pack a critical mass of efficient answers (Pushes, Bolts, Swords and Strixes). The more copies they play, the less our DRS and Delver get to have an impact. The control decks win with raw card advantage and don't get to rest until we are in topdeck mode with an empty board. Goyf and Snap are not only underwhelming in this matchup by virtue of their impact for the mana cost (Push or Strix against Goyf), but most importantly they play right into our opponent's gameplan. Our strength in this matchup comes from their complete lack of pressure and reliance on reactive spells. All we need to do is play threats that require very specific answers (2-3 copies of edicts and deluge for TNN vs. 10+ generic answers to Goyf/Snap). That way we effectively cut their hard-earned card advantage in half and focus our disruption on their limited answers. TNN is obviously the best threat we could wish for as it simply demands a wrath or an edict. Mongoose shines here because you can play a full playset and the same kind of impact as TNN minus Strix resillience. Gurmag is more or less the same but requires a heavier Deluge or a Jace bounce while also being more relevant in aggro matchups. Goyf is literally only resistant to Bolt so his relevance in this matchup is very low. As for Snap in control matchups, I have found his main utility is to flashback cantrips to dig for those resillient threats or a way to protect them while also acting as an edict cushion. Snap is not a threat but merely an expensive super cantrip.

As I've mentionned in my first post as of late, I was previously playing a 5c Domain Zoo deck with 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 4 Nacatl, 2 Mandrills, 2 Snaps, 4 Bolts, 4 Tribal Flames. While I loved this configuration, it had some obvious strengths and glarimg weaknesses. This deck was very aggressive and would rarely connect more than once or twice against Czech Pile, even with the nuttiest starts. The matchup was not bad by any means as I would regularly draw into 13-16 points of direct damage in a grindy match and I had my share of KCommands in the SB. What baffled me was that I had to change my 2 Snaps for 2 TNN because 12 aggressive 1drops and 2 Mandrills wasn't aggressive/resillient enough to break through their defenses without Wastelands of my own to make them struggle. My weakness to Blood Moon (against Blade and Grixis), Wasteland, and my inability to deal with opposing lands is what drove me to tone the aggression down and settle on 4c. I will definitely go back one day as Tribal Flames is a serious Legacy card with untapped potential!

[eldub]

[Former RUG then 4c Delver player pre-Top Ban]

Posting this here as I think it's relevant to the current discussion and there is no real place to discuss BUG tempo.

I've found the best way to fight the Control decks currently are to try and go under them with a mana-denial package based around Stifle with 4+ 1cmc answers to DRS. Unfortunately I've found both Goyf and Mongoose underwhelming with TKS and Gurmag being very prevalent in my meta and have moved to a TNN/Gurmag/Leo threat package. List for reference:

[edit Oct 10 - trying Snare and a 2nd Dismember]

Instant (25)
1x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
2x Dismember
3x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
4x Stifle

Sorcery (4)
4x Ponder

Creature (13)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Gurmag Angler
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2x True-Name Nemesis

Land (18)
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hydroblast
1x Invasive Surgery
1x Life from the Loam
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Marsh Casualties
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
3x Thoughtseize

There's a heavy reliance on Spell Pierce in this shell as your answer to Jace & LoTV plus keeping opponents off cantrips early to fix their mana. Stifle interaction into slamming a Leovold to turn off their cantrips is almost always game over. Loam does a lot of work out of the side for the matchups where your Wastelands are key.

The mana base is extremely stable with 4 USeas and every land casting DRS. I really like this type of stability against other Wasteland decks.

The biggest miss here from 4C is actually Pyroblast. I've found Fatal Push and Dismember to be enough 1cmc interaction with the board that the only time I miss Bolt is to take out a planeswalker.

[Qweerios]

I dont quite understand your reasoning when you present a 4 Stifle/3 Pierce list as a good choice for a Gurmag/TKS meta after stating that Goyf is underwhelming. TKS is generally found in stompy decks against which Stifle and Pierce are subpar cards and in which Goyf shines. Gurmag is generally found in tempo decks against which Goyf is pretty reliable. Relying on timely Pierce and Stifles also means you need to be reactive and that your threats have to be squeezed into play as quickly as possible rather than by taping out on T3+.

It seems to me like your list decided to forego Bolts and red SB options in favor of Decay and Leo. I think that any Stifle list (especially 4) wants to hover around 6ish 1 mana removal spells in order to have 1 mana removal availlable within the first cantrip of the match because a single DRS will invalidate half of tour gameplan. Given a meta that expects control decks as well as lots of Tempo and Stompy decks, I would tone down on the Stifles and Pierces, maybe rethink Goyf as a main reason to play green, and definitely look into an additional Dismember mainboard and perhaps a pair of Strixes main or side. As blablub mentionned, Strix pairs nicely with Goyf and shits on Stompy and Tempo decks.

[eldub]

Appreciate the response.

I see Gurmag mostly from the omnipresent 4c Pile / Grixis lists with endless Fatal Push, Strix and snap casters. Very few tempo players around outside of myself. Plus I’ve found my own Zombie Fish tend to hinder how big goyfs are. I love goyf and have played them for years but they simply were bad too often.

Strix and Goyf IMO really play better in a tap out shell with discard as your early interaction, not stifle / pierce. Different play patterns for sure.

The second dismember is definitely worth considering, ty.

[Xod]

Hi,

Following all the great arguments above, I would likely play the following list soon:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest (should/could be tarns)

Sideboard

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict??
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dead Weight
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdiggers' Cage

The preordain could be a Thoughtseize or a 2nd Gurmag, but I don't think we need that second Gurmag or Preordain can help search for the correct answer.

I saw you discussing about going up to 3 abrupt decays. I think it's not a bad idea. The reason I only have 2 is because I couldn't squeeze the 3rd in and a Dismember is a 1 CMC removal when you really need it, plus it handles Reality SMashers, TKS, Anglers, and the things that decay or bolt would handle.

Played one Dismember a long time in a Dark Thresh build and I was always happy to see it.

[Qweerios]

Hi,

Following all the great arguments above, I would likely play the following list soon:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest (should/could be tarns)

Sideboard

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict??
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dead Weight
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdiggers' Cage

The preordain could be a Thoughtseize or a 2nd Gurmag, but I don't think we need that second Gurmag or Preordain can help search for the correct answer.

I saw you discussing about going up to 3 abrupt decays. I think it's not a bad idea. The reason I only have 2 is because I couldn't squeeze the 3rd in and a Dismember is a 1 CMC removal when you really need it, plus it handles Reality SMashers, TKS, Anglers, and the things that decay or bolt would handle.

Played one Dismember a long time in a Dark Thresh build and I was always happy to see it.

You are very close to my current 4c list. I play the 2nd Gurmag over the 3rd TNN main and I have a Blossom/3rd TNN in the SB. Everything else is the same except that I alternate between Snare, Counterspell, and a 3rd Goyf. My SB is slightly different.

I think Gurmag is the best creature for the most matchups after DRS and Delver with Goyf and TNN being more polarized. With that in mind I want to maximize Gurmag at the expense of Goyf and TNN.

I don't like Thoughtseize at all mainboard but I like it SB. I will take any form of counterspell over TS main because we are a tempo deck at our core. Spending mana to remove a card our opponent has not paid any mana for is a loss of tempo. TS is also a terrible topdeck that doesn't pitch to FoW and always costs life. As a SB card TS is more reasonable because it diversifies our disruption suite against combo decks and acts as a filler card against other decks. The fact that it requires black mana on T1 means we have far less access to it compared to a blue soft counter, which is why I don't play TS in my SB currently. In the advent of a rise in combo and a decrease in control decks, I would gladly add TS in my SB but never MD.

Preordain is my favorite filler card when I play 2-3 Goyfs because it's a Sorcery that I will never side out and that virtually expands my SB.

I am sure you are aware of that but Tarn is just like Misty except that it also fetches Badlands. Just clarifyin'

As much as I love KCommand, I find it to be narrow in application and difficult to rely on with only 2 red sources. I think 2 Decays main with 1 KCommand and a Needle SB is enough to handle any artifact deck. If I wanted another similar effect I would prioritize something like Ancient Grudge that pairs with Loam and comes down on T2 against Chalice. Grudge is a more reliable answer to artifacts as well so you can count on it for equipments and strixes. If I want more grind, Blossom and TNN is where I want to be.

Dead Weight is dead weight as a SB card with only 2 Goyfs. The card is already questionnable with 4 Goyfs. There are better options out there.

Here is my 4c template:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2-3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

0-1 Spell Snare/Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
//SB
0-2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1-2 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
0-1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
0-1 Pithing Needle
0-1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Bitterblossom/True-Name Nemesis

[Qweerios]

Hello to my few fellow Burgers. Here is a small report of yesterday's weekly:

I played the list I posted above with 3 Goyf and 0 Snare and a slightly different SB. Here is the SB, how it went, and my reasoning behind some choices.


3 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Life from the Loam


2-0 vs. Grixis Control (lost roll)

G1 We have empty hands except he has more lands and I have a Gurmag and Goyf. He topdecks Gurmag and Snap into Push while I get lands and Daze. He mounts a comeback at 4 life with snaps while I draw blanks with a Bolt in hand. On my last turn I topdeck a Brainstorm and find the second Bolt for the win.
G2 Gurmag with soft counters and Dismember get there.

I didn't get to play any TNN but Gurmag, Dismember, and Pierce did a lot of work in this matchup. Special thanks to Bolt for the comeback.

2-0 vs. Team America (won roll)

G1 I get a controlling hand with soft counters, a Wasteland, removal and cantrips. I Pierce a Ponder and Waste. Remove a threat, dig into another Waste and counter another cantrip. He is land screwed so I keep digging and find a Gurmag and another Waste with some Daze backup to seal the game.

G2 he gets an early Sylvan Library with DRS, Delver and Goyf start. I get Waste Loam going but I am under too much pressure to Waste more than twice. I deal with some threats while mine get dealt with as well. I build up 5 lands in play and 3 in hand and eventually find a Gurmag that puts a stop to his assault after being at 4 life from paying 12 with Library. He missplays his sequence with Decay and Lily to get Gurmag off the board and Gurmag takes it home.

Again, Gurmag did most of the lifting as the biggest removal-proof creature. At this point I am sold on the 2 Gurmags. Special thanks to Loam for cushioning an Hymn and clearing bad Delver flips. I was happy to see both Edicts in this game as well.

1-2 UR Delver (lost roll)

G1 I put him on Grixis Delver after T1 Volc Delver. I open with a fetch while holding Volc, Badlands, Delta, Force, Delver, Boltx2, Decay (first missplay). I choose to save Delver for FoW and prepare a T2 Decay on Delver while saving my 2 Bolts. When he flips Thunderous Wrath off Delver and puts me to 11. I smack my head for not being able to fetch a red source (both in hand). I Decay Delver next turn and he lays a Stormchaser that I decide not to FoW (second missplay). I Bolt it EoT, he Dazes for prowess. On my turn I bolt, he Dazes again for prowess. I have 2 Delvers that refuse to flip while Stor chaser takes my last 4 points of life in 3 swings.

Bad fetching sequence cost me a game here.

G2 I open double DRS and have removal/counters for anything significant he can do Gurmag takes it home with 21 life.

G3 He opens double Delver with Swiftspear and double Daze with PoP and Dismember. I try to stabilize but I get nutted on.

2-0 vs. Parfait (lost roll)

G1 I Decay Land Tax and he never gets a 3rd land.

G2 I have too many answers ro anythinf he can throw. Too many counters, Decays, Charms, KCommand and Thoughtseize after I side out my Gurmags and Wastelands.

I played no TNN during that event and Goyf didn't do much. My reasoning for the SB going into this event was that I wanted to try something streamlined. Basically I chose cards that affected the most matchups (3rd Surgical > Cage, 2nd KCommand > Blossom/Grudge, 3 TS > Fluster/Needle).

Going forward I will perhaps rethink Goyf. I am thinking about a way to incorporate a 3rd Gurmag and/or 3rd TNN over Goyfs.

[blablub]

Good to see you are doin well :)

i have just cutted the one mana Counterspells at the moment for grindy cards, found that online and i like it

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Snap
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Ponder
4 BS
4 Bolt
3 Decay
1 Loam
2 Painful Truth
1 Library
19 Lands

Played against 4c Pile a lil bit and it looks even. But i agree with you, i want to have some Anglers and i will go with +2 Angler -1 Goyf -1 Snapcaster, Truths and Loam are so awesome at the Moment, it feels like you can't loose if you resolve one of these. Obviously i guess the Combo MUs are really bad but there are simply no Combo-Players in my Meta except a small amount of Sneak/Show which i can attack via Sideboard.

I have no SB at the moment because i can't decide how much cards i wanna bring in against Chech-Pile. Sometimes a Force or a Daze on the right spell wins too. What is your boarding-plan in General against these Controldecks?

Otherwise i think Goyf is still good in the Fatal Push MUs. He's 5/6 or even bigger which puts them onto a very fast clock so they need the Answer asap or they get into Bolt-Range. But as I said i wanna play Gurmags because of Push-Proof. Im not a Fan of Nemesis at the Moment. It feels like nobody wants to loose to this card so everyone is prepaired.

Another Thing is that i want to test Liliana,Last Hope in the Main (maybe for Library and one Truth) because it looks so awesome on paper. It works fine against Strix and should win against Elfes and D/T if you are able to cast it, your K.Commands seems interesting as well :)

[Qweerios]

Good to see you are doin well :)

i have just cutted the one mana Counterspells at the moment for grindy cards, found that online and i like it

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Snap
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Ponder
4 BS
4 Bolt
3 Decay
1 Loam
2 Painful Truth
1 Library
19 Lands

Played against 4c Pile a lil bit and it looks even. But i agree with you, i want to have some Anglers and i will go with +2 Angler -1 Goyf -1 Snapcaster, Truths and Loam are so awesome at the Moment, it feels like you can't loose if you resolve one of these. Obviously i guess the Combo MUs are really bad but there are simply no Combo-Players in my Meta except a small amount of Sneak/Show which i can attack via Sideboard.

I have no SB at the moment because i can't decide how much cards i wanna bring in against Chech-Pile. Sometimes a Force or a Daze on the right spell wins too. What is your boarding-plan in General against these Controldecks?

Otherwise i think Goyf is still good in the Fatal Push MUs. He's 5/6 or even bigger which puts them onto a very fast clock so they need the Answer asap or they get into Bolt-Range. But as I said i wanna play Gurmags because of Push-Proof. Im not a Fan of Nemesis at the Moment. It feels like nobody wants to loose to this card so everyone is prepaired.

Another Thing is that i want to test Liliana,Last Hope in the Main (maybe for Library and one Truth) because it looks so awesome on paper. It works fine against Strix and should win against Elfes and D/T if you are able to cast it, your K.Commands seems interesting as well :)

I think Spell Pierce is a great card against control decks as well as combo decks. Pierce protects Gurmag and TNN from the few answers and backbreaking plays a control player has (Deluge, Jace, KCommand, Snap + whatever, Liliana). I've now cut the 3rd Goyf for a Spell Snare because I'd rather have a Goyf and a Snare for most matchups than having 2 Goyfs.

My boarding plan for:

Czech Pile
-4 FoW
-1 Trop
+2 Pyroblast
+2 KCommand
+1 Loam
(-Daze for +Fluster if I pack them)

I keep Dismember in because you never know if they will play a Delve creature, paying life is irrelevant, and DRS has to die. Decay is fine if they bring in jank (Moon, Jitte, Blossom, Lily). Daze is always good as they have so many curve toppers.

Grixis Control
-4 FoW
-1 Daze
-1 Trop
+2 Pyroblast
+2 Golgari Charm (Moon, Pyro, TNN)
+2 KCommand

I don't care about Loam for this matchup because they have enough basics and don't play Waste.

I disagree with you on the Goyf assessment for the Push matchups. Goyf is a tempo loss and gets walled by everything. Unlike Delver, he costs twice as much and won't fly over Gurmag or TNN. He never puts my opponent on a clock because he never gets to connect. Goyf is definitely not the threat I want for this matchup. TNN is as good as it gets for all control decks (Lands and Blade too!). TNN gives you a clear focus and you know exactly how to win the game when it hits play. Goyf shines when your opponent's only removal is red because it makes him a faster Gurmag/TNN in that MU.

Lilies cost double black. They are fine in the right deck. I think TNN (even KCommand) is more relevant than Sylvan, Truths, Lilies, and even Leos for a Delver deck. I also believe Blossom Is the most devastating card you can bring in against the premier control decks of the format if you have SB space to devote to that only purpose.

[Qweerios]

What do ya'll think is better between Gurmag and Tombstalker for a 4c Delver deck? I understand that the mana requirement for Tombstalker is harder to meet but if it wasn't that much of a stretch, how much better is a flying Gurmag for 1 more mana?

Given the following manabase:

4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
3 Usea
2 Trop
1 Volc
1 Badlands

Gurmags main perk is obviously the mana cost as he can be cast off a single mana and requires 1 less card in the GY if you decide to tap 2 mana as you would for a TS.

Both Delve creatures shine against tempo decks, stompy decks, and non-white control decks. Against tempo and stompy decks, Gurmag's mana cost is a great advantage as it can make the difference between an extra turn to cast your fatty (or you simply can't gather double black mana).

Now if I examine the perks of a flying Gurmag I can see that, as the aggressor, a TNN, Pyromancer, opposing Gurmag from a Grixis deck will not compromise my aggressive position. Same thing for other common situations such as a Wirewood Symbiote stall from an Elves player, an active Mom without a flyer from DnT or Maverick, a TNN or Batterskull from a Blade deck, and even when racing an Eldrazi player that paid too much life for his mana. More importantly, I feel like TS shines even more when you are trying to catch up from behind. Flying walls opposing Delvers or when stabilizing against UR Delver (Stormchaser Mage).

There are definitely lots of perks to a flying Gurmag and the extra mana is not negligible. What is your opinion on the matter? I intend on playing 2 copies.

[blablub]

To Discuss which card is better is nonsense because on the Board Tombstalker will be allways better then Gurmag :D if you think you can cast it, do it. But don't cry if you get punished by a Wasteland :P. Serious, i dont think its neccessary because if your opponent is forced to chump your Gurmag i think you are in the Driverseat anyway. The Difference between 1 and 2 Mana i so huge in that kind of Decks

[Qweerios]

in other words, how often is flying relevant vs. 1 extra mana. There are plenty of scenarios when flying is a clear advantages. Sometimes flying has no impact whatsoever. Sometimes 1 more mana makes the card uncastable or vulnerable to Daze. Sometimes the mana cost is irrelevant.

I don't know what to make of your answer as you seem to have no preference.

[blablub]

i would go with Gurmag Angler because i feel double black is too greedy in this deck. Maybe you should test it in the Delver Mirror and D/T and see how it goes

[Qweerios]

I tried a different creature configuration last week with:

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
2 TNN
1 Gurmag

1 Dismember
4 Bolt
2 Decay
2 Pierce
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 BS
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

19 usual lands

I faced:

UR Delver (2-0)
RG Lands (2-0)
RG Lands (2-1)
Miracles (0-2)

Goyf was great against UR Delver as expected. Gurmag was walled by a TNN and I nearly lost there. I wish Decays were Push for this matchup (all creature matchups for that matter).

Lands got mostly steamrolled by quick creatures, soft counters, active DRS. The game I lost was a G1 against 4 land drops into Marrit Lage. Decay is fine at getting rid of Moxes preboard but mostly relevant against Choke postboard.

Bad mulligans, draws, and crappy brainstorms left me with no chance against Miracles. I faced double stp into CSpell/Snap and Jace backed up with FoW both games. Regardless, I don't think I had appropriate grindy threats and/or disruption to take down a good Miracles opponent.

Going forward I think I definitely want no more than 2-3 Goyfs. 2 Goyfs is definitely on the low side against red Delver decks, Burn, and Eldrazi. 4 Goyfs definitely gets clunky against Combo and Control decks.

I think it's also time to retire Dismember in favor of Push and move Decays to the SB. This change increases my amount of 1 mana removal from 5 to 6 and opens up a slot. I find that I mostly use Decay as creature removal pre-board and it is usually for DRS and Delver. This change decreases the need for green mana and consolidates the deck into a more UBrg deck. I can therefore swap a Tropical Island for a USea and keep my sweet green splash options.

I will also give Bitterblossom a spin over Loam and test out a pair of Spell Snares to see how much they help the control matchups and how much it hinders the others.

[Xod]

I follow the push over decay (although decay in delver matchups is very nice, to have uncounterable removal)

I will play the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker

4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest


Tombstalkers over Anglers, as we have 4 black sources and DRS. Played with similar or fewer black sources in other decks and still managed to easily cast the Stalker.

Still 1 dismember, against Eldrazi (which is still around in my meta), Angler, ... and such.

I had the following sideboard (before moving to push main):

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Golgari Charm
1 Bitterblossom
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdiggers' Cage

Maybe just replacing Loam by 1 decay. Although we have a lot of Mono Red Prison decks going around (but since we don't play any basics, we can best focus on the counter)

Will probably try it out at a bigger tournament soon.

[Xod]

Will probably replace the 1 preordain with a Painful Truth (big fan)

[Qweerios]

I follow the push over decay (although decay in delver matchups is very nice, to have uncounterable removal)

I will play the following list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker

4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest


Tombstalkers over Anglers, as we have 4 black sources and DRS. Played with similar or fewer black sources in other decks and still managed to easily cast the Stalker.

Still 1 dismember, against Eldrazi (which is still around in my meta), Angler, ... and such.

I had the following sideboard (before moving to push main):

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Golgari Charm
1 Bitterblossom
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdiggers' Cage

Maybe just replacing Loam by 1 decay. Although we have a lot of Mono Red Prison decks going around (but since we don't play any basics, we can best focus on the counter)

Will probably try it out at a bigger tournament soon.

Hi Xod

I played a very similar deck to yours with a close sideboard. I've also been tweaking and testing a lot of different configurations over the last few months at regular weeklies with 20-30 players. I've always gone 3-1 or 4-0 (one 2-2) against a varied field. My meta contains primarily Miracles, Czech Pile, BUG Midrange/Delver/Shardless, Lands, UR Delver and almost every established and DtB. The most notable hole in my meta is the lack of Elves player. My deck has to be prepared for various controle decks, fast and aggressive strategies, and still be at the ready for combo decks. Here is what I can tell you:

Gurmag is way better than Tombstalker, especially in a 4c deck. Flying is not always relevant but B vs. BB cost is nearly always relevant. There will be times when you will have to wait an extra turn or several turns to find that second black source and you will wish you had Gurmag. Yes, sometimes you get stared down by a TNN but those occasions are scarce compared to the usual suboptimal draw sequences you have to fix, Wasteland flinging from both parties, and timely aggression your Gurmag will fend off by virtue of being faster. Tombstalker is a huge pet card of mine and I seriously dislike Gurmag's art but the latter is clearly superior in our deck. Here are some all too common scenarios:

-2 lands, Cast a Ponder looking for a threat or removal
-Usea, Volc and Trop. Need to draw a threat
-2 lands against a Delver deck with a potential Daze

I would even venture to say that Hooting Mandrill is probably superior to Tombstalker in your deck (-1 USea +1 Trop).

Fatal Push vs. Decay vs. Dismember is quite the conundrum. I've given up on Push entirely as it is simply more difficult to cast in time compared to Dismember. Being a 4c tempo deck we want to curve out our plays for our deck to be most efficient. Cantriping into removal is more manageable when your potential removal is red or colorless. Paying life is a small price to pay for the consistency and versatility that Dismember has over Push. I play Dismember #1 and #2 over Push #1. I play 4 Bolts and 2 Dismembers when I play 6 removal Spells and 4 Bolts, 1 Dismember and 2 Decays when I play 7. Decay is alone one of the reasons to play 4c in the first place so when you fit them mainboard you get to free some SB slots. I usually get a proper use out of Decays during G1 while Push is more often stranded G1 than a tempo boost compared to Decay. I think the main reason to play Push would be to pack a few Snapcasters.

Preordain is better mainboard than Painful Truths. Preordain is relevant to all matchups and increases your potential keeps for your openers. Preordain fixes our color requirements, feeds Goyf and Delve creatures in a timely fashion and pitches to FoW (or finds it!). If you want something a bit bigger than Preordain and that can grind even more than Truths, try out Sylvan Library. The manipulation you get over the course of a grindy match is very difficult for a control deck to handle, especially G1. Library is also cheaper and more versatile as you don't have to pay life for extra cards. Snapcaster is also a better card than Truths overal that can take on several roles and is never sided out.

My experience with Snare was dissapointing. I tried 2 copies and quickly made Snare a 0-1 card as it too often sits in your hand for too long or promotes subpar plays even in matchups where it is relevant. Snare is also one of those cards that is highly polarized but that offers little reward. Like Stifle, Snare is either good or worthless. Unlike Stifle, a Snare doesn't have the potential to greatly cripple your opponent. Snare is good at making small tempo gains (note: only when it is relevant to the matchups) or preventing card advantage (Strix, SFM, Hymn). For these reasons, if I have a slot to fill with interaction, I prefer Stifle to Snare. Of course Snare can be good against some combo decks but Stifle is always good against those as well. Again, the only time I would play a Snare over a Stifle in a Delver shell would be with a few Snapcasters.

Bitterblossom didn't live up to my expectations. I tried it in a variety of matchups and it simply wasn't great. The only matchups where it truly shine are Czech Pile and Miracles. Nothing else unfortunately... I prefer KCommand and Sylvan Library as SB grind slots by a mile as they are widely applicable. Blossom will come in if my mainboard threat suite is severely lacking in resillience (AKA: 3-4 Goyfs configuration)

Life from the Loam is a card I no longer pack in my SB because it is narrow, situational, and polarized. Loam is only relevant in a handful of matchups like Delver and other Loam decks or controle decks without basics. Even when it is relevant to the matchup it isnt always relevant to the situation. Loam doesn't take pressure off your shoulders and doesn't help you find answers. Loam without Wasteland is lackluster and doesn't always pull me ahead. Loam doesn't pull its weight as a SB card. I expect more from that slot.

Misty Rainforest doesn't fetch Badlands and Scalding Tarn is just like Delta for your manabase so you might as well use the 8 fetches that can get any dual before any Misty.

Just my 2 cents.

My current configuration is pretty funky but it has offered me the most coverage so far.

[Xod]

Hi Xod
Gurmag is way better than Tombstalker, especially in a 4c deck. Flying is not always relevant but B vs. BB cost is nearly always relevant. There will be times when you will have to wait an extra turn or several turns to find that second black source and you will wish you had Gurmag. Yes, sometimes you get stared down by a TNN but those occasions are scarce compared to the usual suboptimal draw sequences you have to fix, Wasteland flinging from both parties, and timely aggression your Gurmag will fend off by virtue of being faster. Tombstalker is a huge pet card of mine and I seriously dislike Gurmag's art but the latter is clearly superior in our deck. Here are some all too common scenarios:

-2 lands, Cast a Ponder looking for a threat or removal
-Usea, Volc and Trop. Need to draw a threat
-2 lands against a Delver deck with a potential Daze

I would even venture to say that Hooting Mandrill is probably superior to Tombstalker in your deck (-1 USea +1 Trop).

Yeah I know, common sense tells me that Angler *should* be better in general due to the manacost, but so many times where tombstalker provides that extra hit pure because of the flying. Getting past a blocker to kill that planeswalker, flying over recurrable blockers/tokens. Something a Angler cannot. But now that you mentioned Mandrills, that might be a good alternative. Good against tokens (might die from multiple blockers), can get over that TNN, only negative point is, that angler is bigger, and that it's 'useless' against eldrazi (where tombstalker shines). And eldrazi is still played in my meta. But I'll might try it this Thursday (big tournament on Sunday)



Fatal Push vs. Decay vs. Dismember is quite the conundrum. I've given up on Push entirely as it is simply more difficult to cast in time compared to Dismember. Being a 4c tempo deck we want to curve out our plays for our deck to be most efficient. Cantriping into removal is more manageable when your potential removal is red or colorless. Paying life is a small price to pay for the consistency and versatility that Dismember has over Push. I play Dismember #1 and #2 over Push #1. I play 4 Bolts and 2 Dismembers when I play 6 removal Spells and 4 Bolts, 1 Dismember and 2 Decays when I play 7. Decay is alone one of the reasons to play 4c in the first place so when you fit them mainboard you get to free some SB slots. I usually get a proper use out of Decays during G1 while Push is more often stranded G1 than a tempo boost compared to Decay. I think the main reason to play Push would be to pack a few Snapcasters.

I went too push because of the manacost. But indeed decay is the more versable choice and uncounterble. Not to mention, it can destroy that dreaded CotV on 1. Will go back to 4 bolts, 2 decay, and 1 dismember.



Preordain is better mainboard than Painful Truths. Preordain is relevant to all matchups and increases your potential keeps for your openers. Preordain fixes our color requirements, feeds Goyf and Delve creatures in a timely fashion and pitches to FoW (or finds it!). If you want something a bit bigger than Preordain and that can grind even more than Truths, try out Sylvan Library. The manipulation you get over the course of a grindy match is very difficult for a control deck to handle, especially G1. Library is also cheaper and more versatile as you don't have to pay life for extra cards. Snapcaster is also a better card than Truths overal that can take on several roles and is never sided out.

I like Painful Truth just because it can refill your hand in a pinch and help you stock up on FoW or Daze, or find anything you need. With Dark Thresh I played 2, and I never lost a game where I could resolve one. Might be a pet card, but it's so good :-)



My experience with Snare was dissapointing. I tried 2 copies and quickly made Snare a 0-1 card as it too often sits in your hand for too long or promotes subpar plays even in matchups where it is relevant. Snare is also one of those cards that is highly polarized but that offers little reward. Like Stifle, Snare is either good or worthless. Unlike Stifle, a Snare doesn't have the potential to greatly cripple your opponent. Snare is good at making small tempo gains (note: only when it is relevant to the matchups) or preventing card advantage (Strix, SFM, Hymn). For these reasons, if I have a slot to fill with interaction, I prefer Stifle to Snare. Of course Snare can be good against some combo decks but Stifle is always good against those as well. Again, the only time I would play a Snare over a Stifle in a Delver shell would be with a few Snapcasters.

I'm a big fan of Stifle, and I do get the 1-off in a deck, but when I play stifle, I prefer a playset, and prefer playing it in a deck like RUG Delver or Dark Thresh. The Snare is good against so many things where stifle does nothing:
- Hymn (stifle does nothing)
- CotV on 1 (stifle does nothing)
- Strix (stifle the draw trigger, but that dreadful deathtouch bird stays behind)
- SFM (stifle might stop the fetch-equipment, but they can have a batterskull in hand)
- Snapcaster (body stays behind)
- Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish (stifle might help against the storm trigger in the end, but by then they already targetted you with discard, snare stops them right there)
- Dark Confident (stifle does nothing)
- so many other things...

Stifle is good (or at least the best) at 2 things: stopping a wasteland and killing a fetch. By doing so crippling there manabase. But again, then the full playset would be better.



Bitterblossom didn't live up to my expectations. I tried it in a variety of matchups and it simply wasn't great. The only matchups where it truly shine are Czech Pile and Miracles. Nothing else unfortunately... I prefer KCommand and Sylvan Library as SB grind slots by a mile as they are widely applicable. Blossom will come in if my mainboard threat suite is severely lacking in resillience (AKA: 3-4 Goyfs configuration)

I put bitterblossom in, mainly for Miracles and Czech Pile (maybe also against lands?) :-) And there are enough of those in my meta.



Life from the Loam is a card I no longer pack in my SB because it is narrow, situational, and polarized. Loam is only relevant in a handful of matchups like Delver and other Loam decks or controle decks without basics. Even when it is relevant to the matchup it isnt always relevant to the situation. Loam doesn't take pressure off your shoulders and doesn't help you find answers. Loam without Wasteland is lackluster and doesn't always pull me ahead. Loam doesn't pull its weight as a SB card. I expect more from that slot.

Right now I had a decay instead of the loam (but had no decay's main) But with 2 main, what would this slot go to? Card filter like library? Sweeper like deluge or make obsolete (saving your TNN)? Forked bolt? Any suggestions are welcome.



Misty Rainforest doesn't fetch Badlands and Scalding Tarn is just like Delta for your manabase so you might as well use the 8 fetches that can get any dual before any Misty.

The reason for the misty's is very simple (explained it in an earlier post I think), I don't own any Tarns :-) But loan them for the big tournament, but might going to buy them (currently a bit low on cash flow).

[Stevestamopz]

I played a 1/1 split of Gurmles and Tombstalker about a year ago without playing Badlands and it worked fine.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14590&d=287498&f=LE

I would definitely play 3 Sea, 1 Volc, 1 Badlands, 2 Trop and Tombstalker over 3 Sea, 2 Volc, 2 Trop and Gurmag. Stalker is just the nuts.

[Qweerios]

I'm a big fan of Stifle, and I do get the 1-off in a deck, but when I play stifle, I prefer a playset, and prefer playing it in a deck like RUG Delver or Dark Thresh. The Snare is good against so many things where stifle does nothing:
- Hymn (stifle does nothing)
- CotV on 1 (stifle does nothing)
- Strix (stifle the draw trigger, but that dreadful deathtouch bird stays behind)
- SFM (stifle might stop the fetch-equipment, but they can have a batterskull in hand)
- Snapcaster (body stays behind)
- Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish (stifle might help against the storm trigger in the end, but by then they already targetted you with discard, snare stops them right there)
- Dark Confident (stifle does nothing)
- so many other things...

Stifle is good (or at least the best) at 2 things: stopping a wasteland and killing a fetch. By doing so crippling there manabase. But again, then the full playset would be better.

...

Right now I had a decay instead of the loam (but had no decay's main) But with 2 main, what would this slot go to? Card filter like library? Sweeper like deluge or make obsolete (saving your TNN)? Forked bolt? Any suggestions are welcome.

When I look at Stifle vs. Snare I look at the matchup, not the cards.

-Hymn (Team America/Czech Pile)
These are the matchups where Snare shines the most over Stifle (especialy Czech Pile). Stifle is still very good too.
-CotV (Eldrazi/Dragon Stomph)
Both Stifle and Snare suck here
-Strix (Czech Pile mostly)
-SFM (DnT/Stoneblade)
Both Stifle and Snare have merit here. Stifle offers more ways to deal with SFM and equipments than Snare that can make your opponent lose precious time and mana. Stifle has notable applications against Mom, Flicker, Recruiter, Explosives.
-Snapcaster (Czech/Blade/Miracle)
Snare hits Counterspell, Stifle hits Miracle, EE, and precious fetches). I also don't care about a 2/1 so Stifle and Snare are functionally similar against Snapcaster.
-Tutors (ANT/TES/Belcher)
Snare is a fine answer when their combo involves a tutor. Stifle has more application and retains blowout potential.
-Bob (Jund? Deadguy?)
Both Snare and Stifle have a lot of targets in these matchups. I find that making your opponent stumble on mana when they play a non-blue deck to be quite potent.

And then ere are all the matchups where Snare is worthless (or nearly so) and Stifle has some useful applications such as Sneak n Show, Elves, Lands, Nic Fit, Dredge, etc...

I replaced Loam with Sylvan Library. It offers grinding power and is really devastating for the right matchup. Basically you can never go wrong with a Sylvan... It's a bit like Pithing Needle or Pyroblast: generic, versatile, and powerful

@Steve,

Even with your first mana configuration Tombstalker has a real drawback if you intend on casting green spells. The most common openers for this deck involve a Trop on T1 or T2. Without green spells (Decay, Goyf, Mongoose) mainboard there is little incentive to play this deck over Grixis.

[Xod]

Even with your first mana configuration Tombstalker has a real drawback if you intend on casting green spells. The most common openers for this deck involve a Trop on T1 or T2. Without green spells (Decay, Goyf, Mongoose) mainboard there is little incentive to play this deck over Grixis.

Ah, there is the difference, I usually fetch for a Sea on T1. Because the double black on Stalker, Black for DRS, or black for decay. Tropical would indeed also be good for DRS, and decay and Tarmogoyf. But since you usually don't drop the Goyf on turn 2 or 3, I normally don't have the need to fetch for the tropical in the first turn (sometimes in the second for decay) Plus DRS helps fixing colors (if he lives).

I was watching at the original decklists, where people played a playset stifle over ponder. Is that really worth it? Might consider it. But sounds clunky. Probably shaving on threads would be better to get the Stifle in, but then you get again closer to RUG or BUG threshold.

Also as sweepers, is Fire Covenant or Sudden Demise still considerable? But then again, Golgari charm does a similar thing, maybe better on some cases. (against TNN or Mom)

Aargh, still not sure what to do :-)

3 trops, 2 seas and 2 mandrills
or
3 seas, 2 trops and 2 stalkers

The first one will definitly provide quicker beats. The second one, will be more likely get all the hits through and help in troublesome matchups, with the downside of getting 2 black and hitting the table at least a turn later.

This Thursday, I'll try the drills and see how it goes.

[Qweerios]

The issue with opening with USea if you have Goyf and Decay in your deck is that Trop is the only viable 2nd land drop that will give you access to those spells. This cuts you off red mana until your 3rd land drop so you risk drawing into dead cards or being severely set back by Wasteland. Goyf and Decay are much more likely to be required earlier on than black for DRS activations as a T1-2 DRS is generally best used as a mana producer. The proper manabase for T1 Usea openers contains a Taiga over a Badlands as it is important for your manabase to be able to cover all of your spells within your first 2 land drops. Trop also enables the most spells to be played so it is natural for Trop to be your first land. In my list, Trop casts DRS, Decay, Goyf/Mongoose while USea casts DRS, Decay, and Gurmag when I play it.

Let's not forget that a 4c deck with 4 Wastelands is already greedy to begin with. Cards like DRS and Dismember mitigate the colored costs of our spells in a brilliant way by allowing black to be kept at a minimum. Trying to further stretch your manabase into including BB spells is unreasonable in my opinion.

I would never play Stifle over Ponder. Ponder is far superior to Stifle for a million reasons so I'll stop here.

If you play Goyfs and Delve creatures I preffer Golgari Charm as my sweeper of choice. It is generally 1-sided, faster than any 3 mana alternative (Empty the Warrens), and it destroys enchantments so it has multiple uses against DnT (RiP) and comes in when I expect Blood Moon or Choke to come out (Sneak n Show, Maverick/Junk, Lands, Grixis Ctrl)

For your Delve suite I recommend either Gurmag or Mandrill. Gurmag is the biggest and baddest for the cheapest cost but Mandrill has his perks. It all depends on what role you want the card to fill. Mandrills is better at getting past tokens, TNN, Mom. He is also on-color and costs less Delve so he comes down quicker and maneuvers around Goyf and DRS better. For most matchups, faster is better. For Eldrazi, bigger is better. Against opposing Gurmags and Goyfs, Mandrill won't cut it. A good way to make your deck more stable and Mandrill-friendly would be to have more Dismembers in your deck. More dismembers = less black requirement and more Gurmag/TKS/Smasher answers. That way Mandrill's main focus and utility becomes a resillient threat that won't be chumped by tokens, TNN, Mom protections, Wirewood shenanigans (Stall tactics). Gurmag shines against Delver decks (Grixis, BUG, UR) and Eldrazi while Mandrill shines against Czech Pile, Grixis Ctrl, TNN blade decks.

I've been playing no Delve creatures at all in my past 2 tournaments simply because there is a high concentration of Miracles players in my meta and I want to avoid tension between Mongoose, Goyf, DRS, and Delve. I admit that I did miss Gurmag against every BUG deck I've faced. This is my latest list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage


Compared to my previous configuration of:
4 DRS
4 Delver
3 Goyfs
2 TNN
2 Gurmag

1 Snare

I didn't have enough quality threats to take on Miracles even during G2 with Blossom and Snare wasn't particularly good. I wanted to retain a good amount of quick and powerful threats to have an edge over fast and aggressive decks like Grixis Delver, UR Delver and Eldrazi so I wanted access to 2-3 Goyfs. I didn't want to play too many Goyfs either because the card is quite underwhelming in many matchups such as every control deck in Legacy at the moment. I also wanted access to 4+ resilient threats that I could ride against control decks and playing more than 2-3 TNN starts to get really clunky, even with DRS. Adopting a single GSZ allowed me to balance out my threats accordingly and even gave me a 5th DRS against GY decks (gave me a game vs. Dredge). It is also a great tool against Miracles as GSZ will reshuffle and Mongoose being Terminus'd to my library makes my deck packed with Shroud creatures as the game progresses.

Losing Gurmag was not without a cost however. I went back to 7 removal spells main and added Thoughtseizes in the board for combo matchups because I need more quality removal to clear the way for Mongoose in some matchups. My matchup against Czech Pile and Miracle greatly improved but my matchup against Team America, Grixis Delver, and Eldrazi got slightly worse. Again, this configuration is a concession to my local meta saturated in Miracles and Strix control decks.

[theMonster]

Genuine question: since you're playing green threats in these 4C decks, would Sea + Taiga be more optimal than Trop + Badlands? Sea + Taiga allows you to play a green creature with the Taiga while holding up Spell Pierce, Stifle (if you run it), and a Deathrite activation with the Sea.

[Qweerios]

Genuine question: since you're playing green threats in these 4C decks, would Sea + Taiga be more optimal than Trop + Badlands? Sea + Taiga allows you to play a green creature with the Taiga while holding up Spell Pierce, Stifle (if you run it), and a Deathrite activation with the Sea.

It's a complex question to answer. Deathrite is a dork with a Trop and only becomes a threat with black mana. A t1 DRS off a Trop is the same as a t1 DRS off a USea because its purpose will be to generate mana. Starting T2-3 you want access to black mana to start dealing damage. Your second land drop is usually a USea, a Volc or a Badlands/Taiga. When you have cantrips and you can cover your color requirements with 2 blue duals, you usually want a Volc/USea. Having Taiga/Badlands as your second land usually means you have a combination of colored spells that require this particular combination. In that stage of the game there are little functional differences between Trop + Badland and USea + Taiga. They both have their respective advantages. The Taiga/Badland shines as a 3rd land, not a 2nd. Trop + USea + Badlands supports multiple DRS activations, pays Dismember in full, and means you cannot be Wasted off of blue or black mana. Whether you get Wasted off green or black doesn't matter for Decay because you cannot safeguard 3 colors with 3 lands.

For the last list I posted, a Taiga over Badlands would be a sensible choice. I havent changed the manabase since I took out Gurmag for Mongoose and GSZ. My list now has considerably higher green requirements than black requirements.

[Xod]

Qweerios, thanks for the awesome insight!

[Qweerios]

My pleasure!

[Kingbrago]

Hey guys,

I’ve been playing Grixis Delver since the top ban and been quite found of this deck ever since, but I’ve been looking to change a bit and picked up this deck.

I play in Paris, where the meta is a bit special : very few combos and a lot of non U midrange decks and 4c control. Today was an eternal week end trial which I won with the following list

MAIN DECK
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Bitterblossom
1 Winter orb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dismember
1 golgari Charm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

First here’s a small report of the event and my thoughts of the deck . I’d like to thank Steven Stampoulos for coming up with the list in the first place as well as answering my questions on Reddit / fb

Round 1 Elves
I open a slow hand, flood a bit and get rolled over both games . The MU seemed ok , and I could have won both with a bit more action

0-1

Round 2 bug shadow
The 3 games are a lot similar : I disrupt his manabase with stifle / waste get down a threat, then he plays a shadow. Game 1 he can steal the game . Game 2 and 3 I keep my advantage , though the games were really close

1-1
Roud 3 4c contrôl.

Game 1 I start with a heavy denial hand and shaman . I waste him a few times , stifle his fetches , but his hand had a lot of lands and he’s able to decay my shaman and then push my Goyf and resolve a true name
Game 2 and 3 I win by keeping him out of tempo , did not draw my Sb haymakers Sylvan Library or winter orb

2-1
Round 4 lands
Game 1 he mulls to 5 and I wasteland him 2 or 3 times while beating down with a Goyf and forcing his gamble .
Game 2 I get down a shaman to disrupt his loam plan then bitterblossom which eventually runed away with the game

3-1
Round 5 Jund
I don’t remember a lot of these games , just he flooded a bit and I had a lot of pressure with counterspells backup

4-1

Quarterfinals storm (TES)
Game 1 he sets up a combo turn with a lot of mana , double discard and tendrils in hand . I had a delver and several counters but could not have won this one

Game 2 and 3 I have an early threat and good hands with counterspells

Semi 12 post
I win game 1 via heavy denial : waste, stifle his map and beat down with a gurmag
Game 2 is same scenario but fail to get down an early threat . I draw my Sylvan an winter orb but end up loosing to a primeval Titan which I failed to find a counter to even with Library and several cantrips

Game 3 I mull to 5 but I have Goyf and Library . I play turn 2 Goyf turn 3 library and get disruption + pressure to win the game

Finals my opponent concedes because he doesn’t want the byes and we split prizes


I liked a lot the deck : it feels like grixis with Goyfs instead of YP. I’m a big fan of Goyf in the current meta, especially the Parisian one where pyro is sometimes lackluster

Goyf still has its flaws against decks like 4c, miracles or blade but He can do a lot in other matchups

Decay was nice though a bit clunky.
Stifle definitely did not convince me. The card helped me a lot against 4c , but it either forces you to sequence badly to try and «*get*» someone, or can have a lackluster effect . I feel the card has to much variance ( it can be either great or totally dead ) and I don’t like it

Sylvan Library I sided in for a lot of MU and it was just amazing . I sure the card can slot in the MD as it helps getting more cards after spending with the opponents resources early , find a threat etc. It’s good against combo decks, and grindy decks

Going forward I think I might go back to grixis as the upside of playing Goyf doesn’t compensate the downside of having a less stable manabase . I still had a great time playing the deck and hope it gets more attention going forward


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

[Sasan]

After a long hiatus I am back.

I updated the primer.

Spoiler Alert: bUrg crushes the current meta and is better than Grixis Delver.

Jokes aside: If you look at my current main deck, you will see that the main difference between Grixis and bUrg is the question Young Pyro vs Mongoose and Probes vs Stifle. Current Grixis lists do not play Cabal Therapies main. In the current meta, Mongoose is better and without Probes you have more deck space for impactful cards. The deck performs better than Grixis in most situations.

[Stevestamopz]

After a long hiatus I am back.

I updated the primer.

Spoiler Alert: bUrg crushes the current meta and is better than Grixis Delver.

Jokes aside: If you look at my current main deck, you will see that the main difference between Grixis and bUrg is the question Young Pyro vs Mongoose and Probes vs Stifle. Current Grixis lists do not play Cabal Therapies main. In the current meta, Mongoose is better and without Probes you have more deck space for impactful cards. The deck performs better than Grixis in most situations.

Are we sure on Mongoose?

The problem I am finding of playing Delver decks without Probe against Delver decks with Probe is that they find what they're looking for much better than I do. Need their 1 of Dismember to deal with my Fish/Stalker? Who finds a creature first after the dust settles? The guy with more cantrips. While I draw Stifle #2 or Spell Pierce #3, they just churn through their deck faster - with perfect info on our hand.

I always felt that Grixis Delver was favoured when playing against the LewisCBR Stifle-Grixis versions, but the super streamlined stock 75 that is all the rage now just seems like a whole new beast.

[Qweerios]

I just went 4-0 at a weekly going through Stasis, Jund, Turbo Depths and Grixis Control. During the last round there were 3 Control decks at the top tables so I felt pretty good about my odds (Grixis Ctrl, Punishing Dack, and Miracles). I also played a bunch of friendlies against Mardu and the deck felt very strong. Here's the list and comments:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Counterspell
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Sylvan Library
1 Bitterblossom


Props:

-Goyf won most of my games
-Blossom put in work against Depths and Grixis Ctrl
-GSZ acted as DRS#5 against Stasis, Mongoose#3 against Jund and Depths, and Leo#2 against Grixis Ctrl
-Decay hitting Jitte, Blood Moon, Lilianas (both), and Young Pyro
-Spell Pierce pairing with most of my plays.

Slops:

-Taking 5 mulligans to no-landers
-Decay being difficult to cast and demanding a Badlands/Taiga
-Badlands not producing blue

I originally had my 4 Mongoose list with 2 Spell Snares prepared for the event but I opted against last minute. 4 Mongoose doesn't apply much pressure and I always feel like I have to bank on Snares to make them worthwhile... In a lot of matchups Shroud is irrelevant and Mongoose is underwhelming. In the matchups where Mongoose shine I only need to get one copy and ride it to victory. So I split Mongoose in half for 2 Goyfs and cut the 2 Snares for a Leo and a GSZ.

Going forward I am tempted to adopt the 2nd Volcanic over Badlands. This would increase my keep odds for openers at the cost of my 3rd black source and the possibility of 4c on 2 lands. Having only 2 black sources pre-board is not problematic but could be an issue postboard when cards like Diabolic Edict, Golgari Charm, and KCommand are brought against Wasteland decks (Team America, DnT, Jund, Maverick, DeathBant/Blade). Most of my post-board games benefit from having access to more than 2 black sources. I also don't play Loam anymore as I find it's a waste of space.

[Stevestamopz]

Zenith... now that's not a bad idea.

Mfw a Delver deck with 15 creatures has more of a toolbox for Zenith than Elves or Maverick does :cool:

[Qweerios]

Zenith... now that's not a bad idea.

Mfw a Delver deck with 15 creatures has more of a toolbox for Zenith than Elves or Maverick does :cool:

I think I've mentionned this earlier about Zenith but I used to play a singleton Preordain both alongside and as a replacement for GSZ when I tested both cards. GSZ is essentially a cantrip into exactly the green creature you want. Paying 2 mana for a Mongoose or DRS is very reasonable given their power level. Paying 3 mana for a Goyf in the right matchup has a huge impact. I really like how GSZ reshuffles against Miracle because my odds of drawing a Mongoose are always reasonably high when their most common answer is Terminus.

I believe the strength of 4c Delver lies in its versatility while maintaining an aggressive shell. Sprinkling a few cards like Decay, GSZ and some varied threats with specific strengths doesn't undercut the deck's aggressiveness while greatly mitigating Delver's traditional weaknesses.

[Sasan]

I think I've mentionned this earlier about Zenith but I used to play a singleton Preordain both alongside and as a replacement for GSZ when I tested both cards. GSZ is essentially a cantrip into exactly the green creature you want. Paying 2 mana for a Mongoose or DRS is very reasonable given their power level. Paying 3 mana for a Goyf in the right matchup has a huge impact. I really like how GSZ reshuffles against Miracle because my odds of drawing a Mongoose are always reasonably high when their most common answer is Terminus.

I believe the strength of 4c Delver lies in its versatility while maintaining an aggressive shell. Sprinkling a few cards like Decay, GSZ and some varied threats with specific strengths doesn't undercut the deck's aggressiveness while greatly mitigating Delver's traditional weaknesses.

This. That is why we have an edge versus most decks in the meta, espcially after boarding.

Regarding the primer and my list:

I am glad that the discussion has gained some steam. It was important to update the primer to include a new deck list and analyze the current meta. If you do not agree on my list, that is fine. There are many lists that work for this shell. I tried to focus that aspect in the updated primer.

[CabalTherapy]

Angler > Mandrills or Mandrills > Angler?

[Qweerios]

Angler > Mandrills or Mandrills > Angler?

Angler is better.

Angler trumps Goyf, Seer, and trades with Angler, Stalker, Smasher. It is also more difficult to get rid of with a Bolt (aka. Pyromancer + Bolt + token block). Beating for 5 is also better than 4. I find trample to be less relevant than all of those points.

[Sasan]

Angler is better.

Angler trumps Goyf, Seer, and trades with Angler, Stalker, Smasher. It is also more difficult to get rid of with a Bolt (aka. Pyromancer + Bolt + token block). Beating for 5 is also better than 4. I find trample to be less relevant than all of those points.


He is absolutely right ;-)

[Stevestamopz]

Snagged the 4-0 at last night's weekly with this absolute dog's breakfast of a pile last night.

UB Reanimator 2-0
4c Loam 2-0 (some truly degen draws from my end lol)
DnT 2-0
ANT 2-1

Zenith, Truths and Whisper were insane all night and I was so glad I got to draw them multiple times to test them properly.

//Creature (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Tarmogoyf

//Instant (20)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce

//Sorcery (7)
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Night's Whisper
1 Painful Truths
4 Ponder

//Land (19)
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge

[theMonster]

Sweet list, and nice 4-0. I’m most curious about the Painful Truths over something like K-Command. Did you find having one more card was more valuable than the flexibility of K-Command? Which would you prefer in the Delver mirror?

[Stevestamopz]

Thanks homeslice.

It's of course always going to be context dependant, but I like Truths because it's more pro-active. Truths is just more removal, more dudes, more cantrips, more lands, whatever.

The deck is so full of good stuff and so devoid of situational cards like Pierce/Stifle that you just want to keep the cards flowing. Truths is just better a card in achieving that end. I would very much like to try a version with 1 Whisper and 2 Truths but perhaps that's too greedy.

[Qweerios]

Interesting list you cooked up. I am curious about GSZ without even a single Mongoose. DRS#2 is fine but wouldn't you rather get something like a 4th Goyf instead? Paying 3 mana for Goyf is probably one of the worst applications of GSZ in this deck IMO.

Night's Whisper and Painful Truths are interresting cards as well. I personally prefer Preordain and Sylvan Library over both of those.

I played my trusty 4c last tuesday to a mediocre finish. The only change I made was to replace the 3rd Surgical with a Needle. I lost every die roll and went 2-2

2-0 Dredge
SB: -2 Decay, -2 TNN, -1 Leo for +2 Surgical, +2 Fluster, +1 Counter

I always face Dredge when I take out a piece of GY hate in my SB... Anyway G1 he gets a nuts start but never gets anything good rolling while I play t1 DRS and eventually stabilize at 2 life in a long and grindy match. G2 I have 2 DRS with enough soft counters.

1-2 Grixis
SB: -2 Force, -2 Pierce for +2 Pyro, +2 Fluster

G1 he runs me over with 2 Delvers, Bolts and a wall of counters. G2 is my turn even though I missboarded putting him on UR Delver G1 (-4 Waste, -1 Dismember, -1 Force for +2 Pyro/Fluster/Edict). G3 I had a great double Delver with double Daze and Dismember hand but I lose to 3 Wastelands by virtue of going second. Basically I only get to cast Delvers while he fires a Wasteland before each of his plays (Delver and Bolt)... I lose holding Dazes, cantrips, and Dismember.

Any advice on boarding against Grixis? I am satisfied with my current plan but perhaps it could be improved upon. There isn't anything I really want to take out besides a few Forces. Fluster is a strict upgrade to Pierce which is the weakest card after FoW#3-4 IMO. I am also not a big fan of Pyroblast here either but I like it more than Fluster...

2-0 Steel Stompy
SB: -2 Pierce, -1 Leo for +1 Grudge, +1 Command, +1 Needle

This is a swingy matchup but Decay pre-board and Goyf puts in work. My opponent was new to his deck and sided out his Thorns which was a mistake. I drew Grudge in G2 and went to town. Ratchet Bomb is a serious hoser against my deck.

1-2-1 Burn
SB: -4 Waste, -1 Dismember for +2 Fluster +2 Edict, +1 Counter

G1 I keep a loose hand but brainstorm turns my DRS opener into a tripple DRS, Delver and Mongoose hand so I am feeling pretty hot. Before I get to cast any of them my opponent slams an Eidolon and my hand turns to shit and lose. G2 is a draw with PoP while he is at 1 life with a fetch in play while my T1 Delver wouldn't flip for 5 turns... G3 I roll him over with Goyf and soft counters. G4 I flood and try to ride TNN but I eventually lose to an unchecked Grim Lavamancer and an Exquisite Firecraft while I am holding a Flusterstorm and a few lands.

Going forward I question the validity of Decay pre-board. It only really shine against Miracles (CB and Azcanta) and Chalice decks... Decay is really clunky as a creature removal spell against Delver decks in general, DnT, And Elves for instance. Decay's mana cost is so difficult to meet on curve and forces bad card choices like Badlands>Volcanic which reduces our amount of keep-able openers. I really enjoy Decay for G2 and G3 in a lot of matchups but I think having cheaper and more availlable removal would be better G1. Cards like Dismember#2, Fatal Push and Forked Bolt come to mind. Losing 2 Decays would allow me to improve the manabase and free up a slot for a flex card like Preordain for even more consistency!

[Stevestamopz]

If you look at Zenith for Goyf as being the same exact mana for Ponder -> Goyf, then you realise it's not as bad as a 3 mana Goyf sounds. Sure, this plays into Spell Pierce where Ponder -> Goyf doesn't but that's about it. I almost didn't even play Leovold but figured that it was worth it for the jokes. It turned out to never be useful but I didn't exactly play against any insane Leovold matchups either.

As for truths vs Library/Preordain, I just like drawing cards man. I like drawing em now and 3 cards for 3 life is a pretty good deal. Like, the sudden burst of cards in a delver deck isn't something opponents are ready for and is certainly not something that the slow filtering of preordain can replicate.

Perhaps it's a meta thing, but having maindeck Abrupt Decay is the main reason I moved back to BURG from Grixis :tongue:

[Qweerios]

Why Ponder into Goyf if you can just Goyf? If you want a Ponder effect play Preordain and if you want a 4th Goyf play a 4th Goyf, right? The whole premise behind GSZ in my list is about having Mongoose available without actually having to draw into multiple Mongoose at the wrong time (GY tension and matchups). GSZ is already pretty narrow and niche in my list, I find it hard to justify without Mongoose is all.

Drawing cards in Delver is amazing as we saw with Treasure Cruise. Paying 2-3 mana and 2-3 life for extra cards however is not something I NEED to do in every matchup. The most common way to lose a game in the Legacy format is not to have the right card at the right time. Losing because you ran out of cards to play while your opponent still has many cards ahead of you is a rare scenario that only occurs in a handful of Matchups like Czech Pile and Miracles. Consistency is more important than quantity. There is a big difference between keeping a 1-lander with Preordain and having to mulligan with Whisper and Truths. Even in the advent that you have 2 lands you are at ease with Preordain but potentially at risk with Truths/Whisper. When paying life for cards matters, Library will act as a delayed Truths (Truths is already delayed by its mana cost) and continue to provide a flow of quality cards with the added bonus of providing additional cards if life is gained (StP).

I think there is a fundamental difference in our approaches to the deck as you seem to view BURG as Grixis with Decay where I see RUG with DRS and Decay. Neither Grixis nor RUG needs Decay mainboard right now and Shroud creatures are at a premium. Decay effects are good but the cost is non-trivial for a Delver deck with Bolts. RUG benefits from those busted DRS openers and answers to Gurmag, TNN, Marrit Lage and Blood Moon. Grixis is already hyper efficient with its Pyro/Gurmag/Probe package. I feel like you either view BURG as a downgrade from Grixis or an upgrade from RUG...

[Stevestamopz]

I think there is a fundamental difference in our approaches to the deck as you seem to view BURG as Grixis with Decay where I see RUG with DRS and Decay.

I agree with your above quote, so perhaps there's no point to this discussion.

I was very happy with GSZ being the 4th Goyf/5th DRS/2nd Leo that also flipped Delver. The point is as I said above, was to just fill my deck with proactive shit. I never said that my list was the best, I just found it to be surprisingly good at being an aggro-control deck. Like Zenith was a joke I stole off you and I was legitimately blown away by how good it was the whole night. Tfw you Zenith for a Goyf and then your next drawstep is another Goyf. Pretty good bruh.

I 100% believe the Bob Huang Grixis Delver list to be the best deck in Legacy. I just don't care to play it.

[Qweerios]

Grixis is indeed very good in part because of its high velocity and synergy. It can go fast, wide, and big. It also has weaknesses though like it doesn't generate card advantage and can't answer certain permanents. Personally I believe BURG to be on par with grixis. The die roll has always been the most deciding factor whenever I play Delver mirrors. BURG is my Delver deck of choice when I am on the draw as we have plenty of ways to weather the storm. Goyf is still a headach for Grixis and Mongoose is steady. If we can match Gurmag and survive the Wasteland/Delver/DRS/Daze onslaught then we can leverage our creatures. Figuring out the right threat combination is a project in itself.

Here's what I really like about BURG:

You take a RUG deck, cut the 3rd Volc and one of the flex counters for 2 USea. This gives you DRS over Stifle, easier casting cost on your essential Dismembers (some RUG lists went as far as playing 2 copies), and great SB options that shore your worst matchups like Decay for Chalice/Moon/RiP/Goyf, Edicts for Lage/TNN/Eldrazi, Golgari for TNN/Mom/Thalia/Warrens/RiP/Moon, and Blossom as an insane 2 mana PW for grindy matchups. The inclusion of DRS and the 19th land then allows you to include a couple 3drops like TNN and Leo. The maindeck is still RUG, just bigger and stronger. Then it's up to you to balance your Mongoose/Goyf/Gurmag/Mandrill/Leo/TNN suite as you desire and still have a couple of flex slots for your spells. Mongoose remains the defining card from RUG and we get to take full advantage of it if we wish.

[theMonster]

Went 3-1 last night at my weekly, getting wrenched by DnT, beating MUD, then eking out close ones against BUG Delver and Czech Pile. The list I played does not represent what I think is optimal or what I would register at a major event; it was a product of me wanting to test cards and explore angles I hadn't tried in a Delver deck before. Here's what I played:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Chart a Course
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland

// sideboard //

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Thoughtseize
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sylvan Library
1 Abrade
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Perilous Voyage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Winter Orb

Some explanations and observations:

- The GSZ was OK. It felt a little clunky, but what I liked more than getting a threat was the shuffle effect. I got to shuffle with Sylvan Library out in one game, and I got to shuffle post-Brainstorm in another.
- Mongoose was both great and terrible, as predicted. It gets blanked by unchecked Deathrites and opposing fatties, but with four (pseudo five with GSZ) shroud threats, you can win lots of the attrition games. I like the current number.
- Never got to cast Chart a Course, but I wanted to try a card advantage spell that didn't cost me life while having the added benefit of pitching to Force in the game 1s that aren't about card advantage. Since the threat density in this build is higher than in, say, RUG or even BUG, I thought I would be attacking often enough to make Chart a Course a straight-up draw-two. At worst it fuels threshold by discarding a situational card. Unfortunately I never got to find out.
- Since I went down to a single Decay, I could probably get away with changing the Badlands to a Volcanic, but I dunno, I like having three black sources, especially in the postboard games. Deathrite needs to be a threat. I might try the Sea/Taiga configuration (and play Misty-s over Deltas) just to compare the two.
- Dismember was great, killing Goyfs and Delve threats and allowing my Mongoose to attack unimpeded for at least two additional turns. I think it's a must in the maindeck.
- Leovold ... no idea what to make of this card in these Delver decks. It's undeniably powerful if it sticks, but it's three mana, can be answered by every removal spell in the format, and is only OK in combat. I don't want to pay :b::g::u: to 2-for-1, but I also want to try to prevent my opponent from finding answers. It's a bit better with a GSZ in the list, but I dunno, I'm torn. What's been everyone else's experiences with Leo?
- Only saw Bitterblossom off a Sylvan Library when I was in turns with Czech Pile, but I think it would've been good had I seen it in the early game. I also tried it against BUG Delver but never drew it. I figured the lack of Bolts and only "tall" threats meant I could only lose 1 life a turn instead of 4 or 5 from a Goyf/Tombstalker. In theory, if an opponent deals with Bitterblossom, Goyfs are enormous.
- Abrade was solid if not unspectacular. I value its versatility.
- Perilous Voyage is normally the second Edict for me, but as someone who plays TurboDepths regularly, I've found that the Marit Lage decks can play around Edict. Depths plays sideboard Arbor/Factory and has Safekeepers lying around; Lands began to adopt Safekeepers and Excavators out of the board. So I wanted a card that can deal with both Marit Lage and stuff like Chalice or bounce pesky blockers to allow me to punch in the last few points of damage. I think the card is narrow but potentially decent. The scry 2 was sweet.
- Winter Orb was pretty bad, though I didn't play an UW decks or Lands.

Overall, the deck was a blast to play, but I still have no idea how to build it!

Thanks for reading, y'all.

[Qweerios]

It's great to see you test a similar list! Glad to see you did well against Czech and BUG Delver because those are both difficult matchups. BUG is basically the same deck but with all the tools to beat the mirror. Czech is pretty good considering we are playing a Delver deck. I can see why DnT gave you some trouble though as I don't think your SB was ready for it (I don't think Thoughtseize is very good here and I don't bring Edicts at all). I play against DnT and Maverick/Junk decks a lot and I rarely lose a set. My current boarding plan for DnT is -4 FoW -2 Pierce for +2 Decay +1 Charm +1 Grudge +1 Library +1 Needle.

Chart a Course is a card I would love to get feedback on because I often consider it over Preordain. It sounds great as a pseudo Brainstorm effect and Threshold enabler. I am afraid it won't be as good as a 9th CMC1 cantrip though... I highly value consistency in deck-building and really don't like mulligans in general.

I decided to move Decay to the SB entirely (over KCommand and Counterspell) and made room for Dismember#2, Preordain, and turned Badlands into Volcanic#2. Now the deck doesn't require black pre-board for anything other than DRS activations and a single Leo. I think playing only 2 black sources is possible as demonstrated by Grixis. I just have to make sure my boarding plans don't involve too many black cards for Wasteland matchups.

My experience with Leo as a 1-2of has been that the second copy is clunky and overall bad in the deck and that the first copy offers a unique dynamic to the board. It's very difficult to justify playing 0 copies of Leo if you can cast him in your deck. Leo has won me games against SnT and Shardless that I simply wouldn't have won if I didn't plan my plays according to my opening Leo. I don't think GSZ is a good enough reason to include Leo but it's always good to have him available against grindy decks that could land a Jace or simply against Elves. I wouldn't fault anybody for omitting Leo altogether... We could always use more Goyfs!

Bitterblossom is extremely narrow and only shines against decks that apply no pressure on your life total. I wouldn't play it against BUG Delver, especially with the possibility of getting it Decayed and being overrun by giant Goyfs that you just can't Dismember or fight with combat math/Bolts/DRS. Sylvan Library is fine though because the life loss is optional and finding cards puts more pressure than a 1/1 each turn. Blossom is the narrowest card in my SB and could easily be replaced by a more generic combo/control card like Counterspell. I literally only bring it in against Czech/Grixis Comtrol and Miracles which are represented in my meta by good players.

Perilous Voyage is interresting and I have no experience with the card. However, I don't think I'd want it against Chalice decks. It seems to me like a concession to Marrit Lage. I will admit that I too find Edict a bit underwhelming but it's simply my only out to certain board states that I have to keep a similar effect in my SB. Even Repeal would be better as a Lage/Chalice bounce... What do you think about Far // Away? It can still act as an Edict against Eldrazi and slower TNN decks while being a great answer to Marrit Lage and certain Reanimator threats.

As for Abrade and Orb I think you can do way more with your SB. I find Abrade underwhelming and Orb too narrow. The only really good application for Abrade is against DnT with 4 Mirran Crusader. Then again, if that was a concern I wouldn't simply pack a Dread of Night...

Looking forward to some more observations if you choose to pick up the deck again!

[theMonster]

It's great to see you test a similar list! Glad to see you did well against Czech and BUG Delver because those are both difficult matchups. BUG is basically the same deck but with all the tools to beat the mirror. Czech is pretty good considering we are playing a Delver deck. I can see why DnT gave you some trouble though as I don't think your SB was ready for it (I don't think Thoughtseize is very good here and I don't bring Edicts at all). I play against DnT and Maverick/Junk decks a lot and I rarely lose a set. My current boarding plan for DnT is -4 FoW -2 Pierce for +2 Decay +1 Charm +1 Grudge +1 Library +1 Needle.

Chart a Course is a card I would love to get feedback on because I often consider it over Preordain. It sounds great as a pseudo Brainstorm effect and Threshold enabler. I am afraid it won't be as good as a 9th CMC1 cantrip though... I highly value consistency in deck-building and really don't like mulligans in general.

I decided to move Decay to the SB entirely (over KCommand and Counterspell) and made room for Dismember#2, Preordain, and turned Badlands into Volcanic#2. Now the deck doesn't require black pre-board for anything other than DRS activations and a single Leo. I think playing only 2 black sources is possible as demonstrated by Grixis. I just have to make sure my boarding plans don't involve too many black cards for Wasteland matchups.

My experience with Leo as a 1-2of has been that the second copy is clunky and overall bad in the deck and that the first copy offers a unique dynamic to the board. It's very difficult to justify playing 0 copies of Leo if you can cast him in your deck. Leo has won me games against SnT and Shardless that I simply wouldn't have won if I didn't plan my plays according to my opening Leo. I don't think GSZ is a good enough reason to include Leo but it's always good to have him available against grindy decks that could land a Jace or simply against Elves. I wouldn't fault anybody for omitting Leo altogether... We could always use more Goyfs!

Bitterblossom is extremely narrow and only shines against decks that apply no pressure on your life total. I wouldn't play it against BUG Delver, especially with the possibility of getting it Decayed and being overrun by giant Goyfs that you just can't Dismember or fight with combat math/Bolts/DRS. Sylvan Library is fine though because the life loss is optional and finding cards puts more pressure than a 1/1 each turn. Blossom is the narrowest card in my SB and could easily be replaced by a more generic combo/control card like Counterspell. I literally only bring it in against Czech/Grixis Comtrol and Miracles which are represented in my meta by good players.

Perilous Voyage is interresting and I have no experience with the card. However, I don't think I'd want it against Chalice decks. It seems to me like a concession to Marrit Lage. I will admit that I too find Edict a bit underwhelming but it's simply my only out to certain board states that I have to keep a similar effect in my SB. Even Repeal would be better as a Lage/Chalice bounce... What do you think about Far // Away? It can still act as an Edict against Eldrazi and slower TNN decks while being a great answer to Marrit Lage and certain Reanimator threats.

As for Abrade and Orb I think you can do way more with your SB. I find Abrade underwhelming and Orb too narrow. The only really good application for Abrade is against DnT with 4 Mirran Crusader. Then again, if that was a concern I wouldn't simply pack a Dread of Night...

Looking forward to some more observations if you choose to pick up the deck again!

Certainly valid points, Qweerios. I'm going to test more in the coming weeks and see what I find.

Again, going into the weekly, I wanted to play cards that I wasn't too familiar with to see how good or bad they were. I haven't registered Winter Orb since Top Miracles was prevalent, so I wanted to see how it stacked up against New Miracles and Lands if we were to get paired. Bitterblossom, I agree, seems like it's strictly for Miracles and Pile. If I were to be paired up against TurboDepths, I would also try it on the play at an FNM just to see if the tokens help at all. Of course they can just Sejiri Steppe once and punch through all of them, so it's definitely not a bulletproof solution or anything. My sideboard also is normally better equipped to tackle small creature strategies, and I've almost always got a Needle in there, too. Just wanted to try some other cards. Now that I've got a better idea of what I like and don't like, I can make a real pass at a list.

I think we're in a metagame where we need a card that can deal with Marit Lage directly. Repeal and Far // Away seem viable. Some RUG lists are on Dead // Gone because it can kill Deathrite or bounce Marit Lage. But three mana for Gone is a ton, and I think Marit Lage decks are too fast to rely on a three-mana answer. Plus it requires red, so I'd rather lean on a blue spell. In terms of dedicated Marit Lage hate (which would come at the expense of one of the two Edicts, I guess?), Repeal is probably the strongest card, but it seems incredibly narrow. I might try Far // Away or keep testing Perilous Voyage. With Decays and Dismember(s), I should be OK against some previously problematic creatures like TKS, Smasher, Knight, etc. I don't love Edict against Grixis or Show and Tell because of Pyromancer and Griselbrand draw-seven, respectively. So perhaps only one dedicated Edict effect is enough, especially with Charm for opposing TNNs.

I think the deck's got merit, though. The blue fair matchups are always gonna be tricky because 4C doesn't do anything necessarily better than the others in the mirror (except for probably having more shroud threats). Thanks for the input, and I'll let you know how testing goes.

[Qweerios]

I forgot to mention it but I did get to test Blossom against Turbo Depths and it is a great card there. It gave me a win even through Tabernacle. I also recount my opponent telling me how difficult it was for him to figure out a way through. Blossom definitely shines against Miracle, Czech, and Depths.

I completely agree with you that we need a dedicated answer to Lage in that Edict slot. I also don't like Edict against Grixis and SnT but I will bring them in against Reanimator, Eldrazi, and DeathBlade/Stoneblade/Deathbant decks with 3+ TNN (over Daze on the draw vs. Noble+DRS, and over 2 Wastelands vs. 5+ basics). Bounce effects work great against Reanimator and Lage but won't cut it against TNN and Eldrazis. I would even make a case for Echoing Truth over Voyage because it has blowout potential against decks that go off on Empty the Warrens.

[blablub]

Regarding your Midrangey-List i would cut the Pierces as well because your tempo plan is allready weaker. I feel this List needs 1 or 2 Snapcaster, maybe over the Levold? if you are running a Zenith i would try to get 1off Nimble Mongoose in the 75s. Maybe a Library is also playable :)

[Qweerios]

@blablub

What makes you believe this deck is "midrangey"? It has an extremely low curve (arguably lower than Grixis) and has all the features of a tempo-oriented deck.

How would Snapcaster benefit the deck if we cut Pierce? Why cut Pierce in the first place? It's an amazing card for any Delver/DRS/Bolt/Daze deck that wishes to have quality interraction. I wouldn't fault anybody for going up to 3 copies even. I could see Snap over Leovold but I don't think Snap is nearly as good as Leo#1.

Library is definitely a playable card in any deck that can play it. I swear by Library in certain matchups which is why it's in my SB.

I understand what you are saying but I don't understand why...

Edit: on an unrelated note I think I found a suitable tech to replace the Edict/Voyage slot. A pair of Ghost Quarters would be great to bring in against Lands/Depths, Eldrazi, and even against Grixis/Team America. This would make the Loam plan more reliable as well. Especially against decks that play 1-2 basic lands we get to completely deny their mana once they've fetched their only basics to play around waste-loam.

[Stevestamopz]

I sort of get what blablub is saying (any Delver deck without Stifle doesn't really feel like a tempo deck to me), but we need a minimum of 2 Spell Pierces to even have a chance Game 1 against Storm or Apes.dec. So yeah, while Spell Pierce is worse in this deck than Canadian, it's still a good card that you need to have.

In other news, a friend of mine from interstate made top 8 at a 30 player event playing this 4c list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18568&d=315616&f=LE

@Qweerios: Ghost Quarter sounds like pretty good tech actually. Nice duress turbo-depths. Inb4 they just draw multiple needles and ignore it all the same:tongue:

[blablub]

I sort of get what blablub is saying (any Delver deck without Stifle doesn't really feel like a tempo deck to me)

this was my point ;)

do you think you can win against a good storm-pilot with 2 pierces and a bunch of 3-mana-spells?, i feel that i wanna give up on that MU and just play more bombs to totally crush all fair MUs. In general i allways feel that spell pierce does basicly nothing :D

what is ape.dec? :D

[Stevestamopz]

this was my point ;)

do you think you can win against a good storm-pilot with 2 pierces and a bunch of 3-mana-spells?, i feel that i wanna give up on that MU and just play more bombs to totally crush all fair MUs. In general i allways feel that spell pierce does basicly nothing :D

what is ape.dec? :D

Pre-board it's not great but you can still just Delver them or counter their early cantrips and then try and Zenith/cast Leo. Postboard it gets a lot better.

Ape.dec is any A + B combo deck, whether it's Show and Tell or Reanimator or Chalice/Blood Moon decks. Spell Pierce is basically always a hard counter against Show and Tell and I really hate that deck.

[Qweerios]

I recently sold my Goyfs and Forces and I didn't have replacements for this week so I played a sub-par list. I tried 4 Mongoose and 4 Stifles for funsies and it went poorly. Both of those cards were garbage all day and undoubtedly caused several losses. Here's the list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

2 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
2 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Islamd
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB
2 Ghost Quarters
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle


0-2 vs. Junk... Rusty player making lots of missplays. Doesn't matter G1 I flood, have worthless Stifles and Mongoose can't reach Threshold. G2 I mulligan and eat an Hymn.

Bye... End up playing funsies against Maverick splash Leo. Again, Stifle is worthless against mana dorks and Thalia and Mongoose can't reach threshold. Shroud is irrelevant here again. I don't have enough threats for this matchup.

1-2 vs. Punishing Maverick... I win G1 off 4 Wastelands. G2 I get wrecked by Thalia and KotR holding Stifles. G3 I eat recurring Wastes and Bojuka Bogs from Ramunap Excavator cutting me off red and black while my 2 Mongeese never reach Threshold.

2-1 vs. Sneak n Show... Stifle was good here as I had lots of time to set up under no pressure. My opponent mulls to 5 in G1 and I hit 2 fetches with Stifle G2. Oddly enough I won the only match where having 4 Forces was essential. Delver didn't flip in 5 turns but Mongoose did reach threshold this time...

This sample was pretty skewed towards Maverick-ish decks. Mongoose is definitely not a card I would want 4-of in a deck anymore. Stifle is too passive for my taste and is the definition of win-more. Stifle is only good at keeping you ahead and won't help you crawl back in any way. There was a situation where I wished I had Badlands available postboard for Decay but then again I did keep two 1-land hands with a Volcanic and a Brainstorm. I do miss the protection from Wasteland that Badlands provides as a 3rd Land. Unfortunately I didn't get to test Ghost Quarters this time around.

[blablub]

Guys, how would you build your Delverdeck if you want to beat the classic grixis-delver deck? Maybe the 4 Gurmag Angler Variant? im looking at you Steve and your Team-Australia ;) What about Ben Friedman Snapcaster-List? http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36702_SCG-Worcester-Legacy-Deck-Guide.html (on bottom)

[JackaBo]

Guys, how would you build your Delverdeck if you want to beat the classic grixis-delver deck? Maybe the 4 Gurmag Angler Variant? im looking at you Steve and your Team-Australia ;) What about Ben Friedman Snapcaster-List? http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36702_SCG-Worcester-Legacy-Deck-Guide.html (on bottom)

Anglers are not great versus pyromancer. Isn't UR delver favored in delver mirrors?

[Stevestamopz]

Guys, how would you build your Delverdeck if you want to beat the classic grixis-delver deck? Maybe the 4 Gurmag Angler Variant? im looking at you Steve and your Team-Australia ;) What about Ben Friedman Snapcaster-List? http://www.starcitygames.com/article/36702_SCG-Worcester-Legacy-Deck-Guide.html (on bottom)

I miss when Team Aus was good :( I might try and brew with it for a sanctioned I've got coming up but I honestly feel like BURG just does the Team Aus thing better. What all Delver decks need are proper 2 drops IMO. Goyf just fills this role so nicely in BURG.

Playing multiple Golgari Charms (and even 1 main as per the primer) sounds pretty good. I still like Deluge for it's ability to crush DnT and Elves but G.charm is far better against Delver.dec

Re: Friedo's list - I hate Thoughtseize in this meta, let alone 3 maindeck. It's just absolutely horrendous deckbuilding when the best deck by miles is a fair blue tempo deck and the 2nd best deck just replaces Delver with Strix. It doesn't even help our bad matchups in this meta (Lands and Turbo-Depths) so why bother. /rant

Other than that the list seems fine but also not where I want to be. It straddles the line too much between being Pile and Delver which is a bit non-committal for my liking. I also imagine it would get run over by Huang delver and over-powered by Pile so why bother.
I really really loved his lists during the Miracles era but I don't think his list is any good at the minute.

This is where I'm at with BURG:

//Creature (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Tarmogoyf

//Enchantment (1)
1 Seal of Fire

//Instant (21)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce

//Sorcery (6)
1 Night's Whisper
1 Painful Truths
4 Ponder

//Land (19)
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

[Qweerios]

I think the best way for us to beat Grixis is to play Goyfs/Gurmag, quality cheap removal (Bolt, Push, Dismember), and to make land drops consistently (20 lands). Team America is a good example of a strong Delver deck against other Delver decks because it plays the biggest, fastest and most resillient vanilla creatures combined with some of the best removal and just enough grind to take control of most aggro and midrange matchups.

Czech Pile and Miracles are definitely some of the top decks to beat in my meta as the other DtB aren't as consistently at the top tables (DnT, Eldrazi, SnT, Storm, various Delvers). I want to be playing some number of trump cards against these control decks pre-board. Playing only vanilla creatures that all get removed by Strix, Push, Sword and Snap leaves me open to get Jaced out...TNN is crucial at forcing a wrath effect and pressuring PWs. Playing a Sylvan Library mainboard has a huge impact as well since they won't likely have enough answers pre-board.

I've been playing around with various threat, spell, and land configurations over the past year and gathered a lot of data on 4c and Tribal Flames variants. 4c is the deck I played the most and so had consistent top finishes with but TF is the deck that had the best results despite varying wildly in configuration. TF is amazing against every troublesome aggro deck and has more game against control G1.

Here is my current 4c Delver list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Bitterblossom
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ghost Quarters
1 Barbarian Ring


I dropped Leo for Preordain and that's probably the only flex slot in the main for me. Preordain works better with the rest of the deck (1 mana cantrip for mana fixing, threshold for Mongoose, Sorcery for Goyf). Leo is clunky given 2 TNN and a GSZ already.

If anyone is interrested in developping Tribal Flames I actually have a long, nearly complete primer with compiled data from playtesting, weeklies and tournaments.

[blablub]

Well, i will give your apporaches a try although i'm not sure about cutting Stifle. It seems like no one expect it out of a delver deck anymore. I will start with Sean Brown' list with the 2/2/2 Snare/Pierce/Whisper Splilt and 3/2 Goyf/Angler

Qweerios im really interested in your Tribal-Flames deck. You might share your Primer?

[Stevestamopz]

Stifle is not as good right now because everyone is too proactive and this deck cannot operate like Canadian does.

I talked with Sean about his take on my BURG list and I told him that he was making it too Canadian with the Snares and the construction of his sideboard. The deck needs the ability to be able to grind with the fair-decks post board and you have to go a bit Jundy with it in my experience. Sean did post-fact talk about adding 2 True-Names over the slots that I have dedicated to the two Lilianas to be able to push through the fair decks but I think the Liliana's are just higher impact cards across the board.

Anyway, I 4-0'd again tonight with the list I posted earlier.

Rd 1: ANT 2-1
Rd 2: UB Reanimator 2-1
Rd 3: Infect 2-1
Rd 4: Merfolk (yes!) 2-1.

Obviously running hot but the deck feels really insane. I haven't missed TNN at all.

[blablub]

jeah, i've mentioned this before. i feel your thought process is not complete or something like this :D (no offense, dont know how to describe it otherwise :D)

You want to play a Delver-Deck which goes "jundy" and say that's why Snares don't fit. Ok, i get it, because is reactive card, but play pierces instead which are much weaker without the complete Tempo-Plan? Snare would be better even in your list, because it counters the most fearsome card for a deck which cant go wide or have True-Name -->fuckin Baleful Strix (ohh man i hate it so much!!) thats why i said earlier cut all the 1-Mana Counterspells,

maybe two years ago HJ-Goddik played something similiar in the BoM super-finals. I cant find the List anymore but it was something like:

19 Land
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Delver
16 Blue Cards
2 Snapcaster
2 Painful Truth
1 Loam
1 Library
4 Bolt
3 Decay

don't know the Sideboard sorry

While i really like your Approach, don't get me wrong and i think this is the way to go in my meta right now because there isn't a lot of Storm and Sneak/Show (in MY meta!!), i think you are not consequent enough. just my thoughts, please don't be offended

[Qweerios]

Stifle is not as good right now because everyone is too proactive and this deck cannot operate like Canadian does.

I talked with Sean about his take on my BURG list and I told him that he was making it too Canadian with the Snares and the construction of his sideboard. The deck needs the ability to be able to grind with the fair-decks post board and you have to go a bit Jundy with it in my experience. Sean did post-fact talk about adding 2 True-Names over the slots that I have dedicated to the two Lilianas to be able to push through the fair decks but I think the Liliana's are just higher impact cards across the board.

Anyway, I 4-0'd again tonight with the list I posted earlier.

Rd 1: ANT 2-1
Rd 2: UB Reanimator 2-1
Rd 3: Infect 2-1
Rd 4: Merfolk (yes!) 2-1.

Obviously running hot but the deck feels really insane. I haven't missed TNN at all.

Good to see you are having success! I second your comment about Stifle as I believe the card is a wasted slot.
You have to face Strix control or StP + Snap decks to appreciate TNN. According to your last 2 runs, TNN does look unecessary.

[Qweerios]

Well, i will give your apporaches a try although i'm not sure about cutting Stifle. It seems like no one expect it out of a delver deck anymore. I will start with Sean Brown' list with the 2/2/2 Snare/Pierce/Whisper Splilt and 3/2 Goyf/Angler

Qweerios im really interested in your Tribal-Flames deck. You might share your Primer?

I will post the primer today in the New n Dev section.

[Stevestamopz]

jeah, i've mentioned this before. i feel your thought process is not complete or something like this :D (no offense, dont know how to describe it otherwise :D)

You want to play a Delver-Deck which goes "jundy" and say that's why Snares don't fit. Ok, i get it, because is reactive card, but play pierces instead which are much weaker without the complete Tempo-Plan? Snare would be better even in your list, because it counters the most fearsome card for a deck which cant go wide or have True-Name -->fuckin Baleful Strix (ohh man i hate it so much!!) thats why i said earlier cut all the 1-Mana Counterspells,

While i really like your Approach, don't get me wrong and i think this is the way to go in my meta right now because there isn't a lot of Storm and Sneak/Show (in MY meta!!), i think you are not consequent enough. just my thoughts, please don't be offended

It's hard to be offended when I don't really follow what you are saying lol. I am playing a Delver deck that is just full of the best cards possible (Seal of Fire excepted). I am not trying to be a Jund deck in Game 1, I am playing an aggro-control deck that has the best chance of beating anything Game 1.

I haven't had the misfortune of having to play against Czech Pile in the last 2 weeklies I've played in, granted. I have however beat the Pile both online and in paper against one of the better local players with this list - no TNN needed, no Bitterblossom needed. Just pressure them early, draw cards, and ride the X/1 sweepers (another reason I'm not playing TNN) and Planeswalkers to victory. Goyf is fantastic because of the pressure it puts on the opponent, and it's almost always a 5/6 or a 6/7 against Pile.

Postboard the deck focus' it's plan and can either play Control or Beatdown. DnT really struggles against recurring sources of card-advantage like the Planeswalkers and obviously cards like Deluge are insane. This is where Sean and I differ on approaches. Last fortnight I beat 4c Loam + DnT 2-0; matchups where TNN is supposed to shine. Yesterday I beat Merfolk which is also supposed to be a bad matchup because of my Jund plan postboard against fair decks. TNN is a crutch that too many people rely on IMO and is just horrendously slow.

The philosophy behind the deck's construction couldn't be more consistent IMO.

[Stevestamopz]

Took the deck to the semis of a 25ish player sanctioned today where I got shit on by some insane Canadian thresh draws.

Rd1: UR Delver 1-2
Rd2: Merfolk 2-1
Rd3: Team Australia 2-1 (Grixis Delver with Stalker/Stifle/TNN)
Rd4: BUG Leo/TNN 2-0
Rd5: ID
Top 8: ANT 2-0
Top 4: Canadian Thresh 0-2.
Game 1 I started with 2 fetchlands and a wasteland and ended up with 0 without ever getting a colour producing land and game 2 my 5/6 goyf got dismembered and bolted, 2 drs' also got bolted and then my opponent went Tnn into Tnn while I looked at the Polluted Delta in my hand. #justcanadianthings i suppose.

My list continues to perform and I was playing at about 10% capacity the entire day: I went for a hard run the night before and did a very heavy weightlifting session the morning of. I made an error in not bringing in a pyroblast (unintentional error) and I think I should have brought in at least 1 Deluge against RUG but doubted I would ever be able to resolve it. Thoughts?

[Qweerios]

@Steve

Grats on the good results!

Sometimes the power of Delver is unstoppable. I think your list is fine against RUG and they managed to get under you before your 4th color advantage could kick in. That's nearly the only way RUG beats us... Deluge isn't so hot in that matchup, it all depends on what you have to take out for it and what version of RUG they are playing. I would take out 2-4 Bolts, 2 Pierce and 2 Forces here as well as every "pay life draw cards".

[blablub]

Steve i will give your list a shot,
do you mind explaining your boardingplan against Pile and Grixis Delver? would be really appreciated :)

Or do you changed anything?

[Stevestamopz]

Heyo, hope you have some success with it.


Against Pile.

-3 Force, -3 Daze
+2 Deluge, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Liliana, the Last Hope, +1 Liliana of the Veil

Against Grixis
-4 Force, -4 Daze
+2 Deluge, +2 Fluster + 1 Edict, +2 Pyro, +1 Liliana the Last Hope

I really have no idea though, that could be completely wrong. Maybe Dazes + Forces should stay in so that you can slam Deluge with protection? Qweerios usually has much better sbing plans than I do haha.

Check out these sweet boardstates from my last tournament

Against the Delver mirror:
https://i.imgur.com/lX33sHMl.jpg

Against Merfolk:
https://i.imgur.com/aigmpZMl.jpg

[Qweerios]

Heyo, hope you have some success with it.


Against Pile.

-3 Force, -3 Daze
+2 Deluge, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Liliana, the Last Hope, +1 Liliana of the Veil

Against Grixis
-4 Force, -4 Daze
+2 Deluge, +2 Fluster + 1 Edict, +2 Pyro, +1 Liliana the Last Hope

I really have no idea though, that could be completely wrong. Maybe Dazes + Forces should stay in so that you can slam Deluge with protection? Qweerios usually has much better sbing plans than I do haha.

Check out these sweet boardstates from my last tournament

Against the Delver mirror:
https://i.imgur.com/lX33sHMl.jpg

Against Merfolk:
https://i.imgur.com/aigmpZMl.jpg

Against Pile I keep 4 Daze on the play and 3 on the draw and side out all FoW. Daze is really good in this matchup because their haymakers are high on curve and they are vulnerable to Wasteland.

Against Grixis I keep 4 Daze on the play and draw and 1-2 FoW on the play and draw as well depending on the cards I have to bring in. Most Delver Matchups are determined by early ressource denial and being on the draw is a huge handicap that a FoW can pull you through. Daze is always relevant in this matchup.

[Stevestamopz]

@qweerios - what would you sub in and out exactly?

Did any burg-bros make it out to Seattle today? If so, any results?

[theMonster]

Did any burg-bros make it out to Seattle today? If so, any results?

Didn't get to Seattle, unfortunately, but I've been testing a fair bit of 4C Delver and 4-0d FNM last night, beating a strange gauntlet of Maverick, Pox, Bomberman, and a very cool UW Standstill deck with Terminus. Here's what I played:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tombstalker

1 Liliana, the Last Hope

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Chart a Course
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

// sideboard //

2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Countersquall
2 Pyroblast
1 Sylvan Library
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Ancient Grudge
1 True-Name Nemesis

The list felt great. I had no mana problems in any matches. I'm still unsure what the optimal threat suite is for these 4C Delver decks, but I found this one to be pretty effective. I considered playing a second Tombstalker over either the third Goyf or the Lili but then decided that the Lili fulfills a lot of roles in this deck: weenie killer, creature recursion, a game-ending ultimate that fights on an axis that's resilient to removal. It performed well all night.

Chart a Course has been consistently pretty good. I like that it's blue and doesn't cost life. Even if you have to discard, it's not that bad, as you can fuel your Tombstalker or pitch dead cards like Daze or Pierce. I haven't had to discard with it so far. Spell Snare was something I dusted off and found it to be pretty good. This is definitely a flex slot, but I got to counter an escalated Collective Brutality and a Snapcaster with it, so it did its job.

The sideboard felt like it had what I wanted, but there is definitely room for customization. Countersquall is a pet card of mine, but I legitimately think it is good against control decks, passable against combo, and better than something like Flusterstorm against Stompy or other decks featuring non-creature permanent-based hate. Since I'm on four black sources, including the Badlands, I've found it easier to hold up :u::b: than :u::u: for Counterspell. Your mileage may vary -- Flusterstorm or a third Pierce may be correct, but I've been happy with Countersquall. The third TNN is something I'm not attached to at all, but I liked it. It's another threat against fair decks that's hard to deal with. I wanted to play a Leovold, but my copies are out getting signed. I basically wanted another anti-control card that had broad application elsewhere, and I think the third TNN accomplishes that.

Let me know if you have any questions, and thanks for reading!

[Qweerios]

@Steve

Here's my current 4c list with the SB map. Grixis is at the top. The GQ + Loam plan really messes with Grixis and BUG Delver hard... I took a page out of Team America's SB plan against aggro decks by removing TNN mainboard in favor of Leo and adding Deluge to the SB as a complementary 1-sided wrath alongside Golgari Charm.

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler‎

Spells (26)
1 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

Sideboard
2 Ghost Quarters ‎
2 Surgical Extraction ‎
2 Flusterstorm ‎
2 Pyroblast ‎
1 Diabolic Edict ‎
1 Ancient Grudge ‎
1 Golgari Charm ‎
1 Toxic Deluge ‎
1 Life from the Loam ‎
1 Sylvan Library ‎
1 Grafdigger's Cage ‎

SB Map

Aggro (8):

Grixis Delver‎
-2 Pierce -4 Force‎
+2 Ghost +2 Pyro +1 Deluge +1 Loam

Team America
-2 Pierce -4 Force
+2 Ghost +1 Edict +1 Deluge +1 Loam +1 Library

UR Delver
-1 Dismember -2 Force -2 Waste
+2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 Edict

DnT
-2 Pierce -4 Force
+1 Edict +1 Grudge +1 Charm +1 Loam +1 Deluge +1 Library

Eldrazi
-2 Leo -2 Pierce -1 Force‎
+2 Ghost +1 Edict +1 Grudge +1 Deluge‎

Red Stompy
-2 Leo
+1 Grudge +1 Charm‎
‎
Maverick
-2 Pierce -4 Force
+1 Edict +1 Grudge +1 Charm +1 Deluge +1 Loam +1 Library

Burn
-1 Dismember -2 Waste
+2 Fluster +1 Edict
‎
Control (4):

Czech Pile‎
-2 Decay -4 Force
+2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 Loam +1 Library‎

Miracles
-1 Dismember -4 Bolt -1 Waste
+2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 Charm +1 Library‎

Loam
-2 Pierce -4 Force
+2 Surgical +1 Edict +1 Grudge +1 Loam +1 Library

Lands
-1 Angler -1 Dismember -4 Bolt -1 Force‎
+2 Ghost +2 Surgical +1 Edict +1 Loam +1 Library

Combo (6):

Storm
-1 Angler -1 Dismember *-2 Decay -2-4 Bolt -0-2 Goyf
+2 Surgical +2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 Charm +1 Cage

SnT
-1 Angler -1 Dismember -4 Bolt
+2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 Charm +1 Surgical

BR Reanimator (UB)
-1 Angler -1 Dismember -4 Bolt (-2 Decay)
+2 Surgical +2 Fluster +1 Edict +1 Cage (+2 Pyro)

Turbo Depths
-2 Leo -1 Angler -1 Dismember -4 Bolt
+2 Ghost +2 Fluster +1 Edict +1 Grudge +1 Loam +1 Library‎
‎
Elves
-1 Angler -2 Pierce*
+1 Charm +1 Deluge +1 Cage

Dredge
-2 Leo -1 Gurmag -2 Decay
+2 Surgical +2 Fluster +1 Cage

@theMonster

I think Negate is straight up better than Countersquall.

[Stevestamopz]

Hello friends,

I came 15th at our Eternal Weekend the other week and figured I'd write a report. Happy to discuss the decklist too! Whoever said Golgari Charm in the main was good, you are a godamned genius.

https://thesaltminesite.com/2018/06/18/full-power-delver-15th-at-legacy-masters-2018/

[Qweerios]

Gj Steve!

Nice report, I like your writing style! I always enjoy reading your thoughts on 4c Delver since we don't get much content anymore.

My 4c list is very close to yours right now with a couple minor changes (-1 Gurmag for a 3rd Decay, -2 Golgari for 2 Spell Snare and -1 USea for a 3rd Trop).

How do you like the 2nd Gurmag? I tried this exact threat config for a while and ran into GY tension with Goyf or multiple Anglers. I definitely value Gurmag over the 4th Goyf but the second Angler has very diminishing returns given that we already play several fatties and that Gurmag's resistance to removal only shines in a handful of Matchups.

On an unrelated note, I am very satisfied with Spell Snare in the current metagame because it is nearly on par with Pierce in relevance and it's been a while since I've seen that many quality targets for Snare in the top decks.

I am very satisfied with my Aggro and Combo Matchups but I need extra points against Czech and Miracle. My approach has been to have a really strong postboard matchup against control but I find myself lacking 1-2 powerful grind cards. I immediately thought of you and Painful Truths. I'd like to figure out a solid postboard grind plan and I am wondering if Truths, Blossom, Library or Loam Is the way to go. Here is my SB:

2 Baleful Strix
-SB Strix is absolutely amazing at pushing Goyf over Gurmag in the Grixis matchup. I took a page from RUG Delver and looked for a 5th card type that would tip Delver Matchups in my favor.
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
-I play Fluster over TS because I can bring it in against Control and Burn while TS only shines against dedicated Combo decks. Fluster is also much easier to cast.
2 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
-I just upgraded Grudge to KCommand in order to gain additional grinding power from my 4th Artifact(Chalice) removal slot. Good synergy with Strix too!
1 Dismember
-I originally had Dismember main but I moved it in favor of a 3rd Decay. Dismember is my 5th 1mana removal against aggro and an additional way to get rid of Angler. I absolutely love Dismember in 4c tempo for its flexible cost and high applicability but it is simply too often a liability in too many Matchups to cut the cheese as a preboard card.
1 Grafdigger's Cage
-Probably the narrowest card in the deck but it fills a niche role against Elves, Dredge, Reanimator and the occasional Nic Fit.

My last two slots are my "grind"sots and are currently occupied by Loam and Library. Loam is very good against a myriad of tough Matchups like Lands, Depths, Grixis, Czech, DnT and Loam to name a few but as a "grind" slot doesn't offer anything against Miracles...

Sylvan Library has long been my go-to grind card for al control decks or whenever I adopt the control role as I highly value the Top ability over the course of a long game. Library especially shines against StP based control decks but might not be as impactful as Bitterblossom or Painful Truths. If I am going to play Truths, Library is the most likely candidate to get replaced.

What is your SB plan against Czech and Miracles?

Czech:
-3 Decay -4 Force
+2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 KCommand +1 Loam +1 Library

Miracles:
-4 Bolt -3 Waste
+2 Strix +2 Fluster +2 Pyro +1 Library

As you can see I could use another dedicated grind card against Miracles... All of my other Matchups on my SB map are spot on perfect though.

[DemolitionColorScheme]

RIP this deck. Sadly.

[Stevestamopz]

@Qweerios - apologies for not replying, I did not see your message.

The haters will call us crazy, but I'm not giving up on 4 Colour just yet and neither should you! I'm not registering Bomat Courier in my decklist when Goblin Lackey is legal and Team America feels a bit underpowered all things considered.

There are some notable deck-building constraints in this: 3 Wastelands and 3 Lightning Bolts are not typos.

Anyway, this is the day 1 list. In the hopefully mortal words of Bon Jovi, we gotta keep the faith!

//Creature (11)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

//Instant (22)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

//Sorcery (8)
1 Life from the Loam
2 Night's Whisper
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

//Land (19)
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize

[Plague Sliver]

The haters will call us crazy

You cray but I ain't hatin'

[DemolitionColorScheme]

I ain't hatin' - but, you cray-cray, yeah, haha.
The upside of BURG was definitely being able to utilize DRS as an additional 1-drop threat that enabled you to either have the mana for deploying a Goyf and keeping up permission, while also being able to play Goose and additional tools like Decay, Discard, you name it. Adding Gurmag + Goyf + TNN in a deck and then trimming stuff like Wasteland and adding more midrange stuff like Night's Whisper and LftL in the main feels really janky. I've always felt that the more you lean towards midrange, the less effective the tempo plan becomes compared to dedicated tempo decks.

I'm not saying this is terrible, since there are definitely cases where RUG runs out of gas and your version of BURG goes a little more on the grindy side, for example. It just doesn't look like a tempo deck.
I would even go so far as saying that DRS was the core principle for running BURG. To me, BURG was always RUG Delver with DRS, pretty much. Leaner, more 1-drop creatures and access to discard / specific tools RUG could never use.

[Stevestamopz]

I ain't hatin' - but, you cray-cray, yeah, haha.
The upside of BURG was definitely being able to utilize DRS as an additional 1-drop threat that enabled you to either have the mana for deploying a Goyf and keeping up permission, while also being able to play Goose and additional tools like Decay, Discard, you name it. Adding Gurmag + Goyf + TNN in a deck and then trimming stuff like Wasteland and adding more midrange stuff like Night's Whisper and LftL in the main feels really janky. I've always felt that the more you lean towards midrange, the less effective the tempo plan becomes compared to dedicated tempo decks.

I'm not saying this is terrible, since there are definitely cases where RUG runs out of gas and your version of BURG goes a little more on the grindy side, for example. It just doesn't look like a tempo deck.
I would even go so far as saying that DRS was the core principle for running BURG. To me, BURG was always RUG Delver with DRS, pretty much. Leaner, more 1-drop creatures and access to discard / specific tools RUG could never use.

I get what you're saying but I'm not trying to build strictly worse Canadian (which is what BURG Thresh was). I want to play 4 Colour Delver as I always have which was as an aggressive blue-jund style deck. You could say "why don't you play a mid-range deck and cut delver" and the answer to that is that Delver and Daze/Wasteland beat combo decks and if I was happy to lose to combo I would main Goblins and sell my 40 duals. Is 3 Wasteland correct? I don't know. I would like to be able to do some testing but someone stole the tarns off my modo account so I can't even test the deck online :mad::mad::mad: Maybe 4 will show itself to be correct, we shall see.

Burg Thresh could never be a better RUG because RUG has the "full shroud" plan - cut all delvers and rely on really sticky threats like Mandrills, Goose and TNN that are impossible to remove with bolt/push/decay and in the case of the latter two, plow. BURG could never do that and so a game plan built around "make DRS stick and then do rug things" felt a bit silly to me because DRS would always die and you obviously cannot progress to step two when you have failed to complete step one.

Regarding Night's Whisper and Loam: Canadian players are currently playing a maindeck Loam so I would suggest that Loam is not so antithetical to the Delver plan as you suggest. The mana is no doubt sketchy so there is an obvious reason to play Loam but! I would not play Loam if it was just to make the mana work. The card works brilliantly with Brainstorm and Wasteland so it's equal parts reactive and proactive i.e the perfect Delver card.

We have seen different variations of Night's Whisper/Painful Truths type cards in Delver with the DTT Grixis Delver lists and later with the Ben Friedman/Jarvis Yu Snapcaster BURG Delver lists. I never played the DTT Grixis Lists (played against them plenty and lost a lot) and my first Delver deck had 2 Snapcaster Mages main and 2 Painful Truths in the sideboard. Raw card-advantage spells work so well with the Delver plan that I could probably write a whole article on it. Maybe even a book! "Understanding Painful Truths" lmao.

[Qweerios]

Hello? Is there anybody in there?

I innitially thought 4c Delver was completely dead with the banning of DRS but I think it might have a place in today's meta given the rise in Pteramander Delver, DnT, and the uptick in control decks (Blade, Miracles, Grixis).

The idea here is to play Abrupt Decay and have just enough red to support 4 Bolts mainboard and a couple of blasts in the board OR just enough green to support 3 Decays main and perhaps 1-2 sb options.

What do you guys think is the best approach?

[Stevestamopz]

Hello? Is there anybody in there?

I innitially thought 4c Delver was completely dead with the banning of DRS but I think it might have a place in today's meta given the rise in Pteramander Delver, DnT, and the uptick in control decks (Blade, Miracles, Grixis).

The idea here is to play Abrupt Decay and have just enough red to support 4 Bolts mainboard and a couple of blasts in the board OR just enough green to support 3 Decays main and perhaps 1-2 sb options.

What do you guys think is the best approach?

God yes, let's get this deck going again.

Lately I've been playing BUG Delver (for the same reasons you outlined as a reason to play BURG) to solid 3-1's at our local events and I find it to be very well positioned... with that said, I miss slinging Beta Bolts at people's domes for lethal and especially now without DRS, it's sometimes very difficult to get that last point of damage across.

I think you may be on the money when you say:


The idea here is to play Abrupt Decay and have just enough red to support 4 Bolts mainboard and a couple of blasts in the board OR just enough green to support 3 Decays main and perhaps 1-2 sb options.


My initial lists had Goyfs and that stretched the deck too much into Green as the primary colour. Borrowing from your idea, I've drafted a quick list that is essentially U/B Delver with small splashes.

//Creature (10)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Gurmag Angler
3 True-Name Nemesis

//Instant (21)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce

//Sorcery (7)
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

//Tribal Enchantment (2)
2 Bitterblossom

//Land (20)
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Cindervines
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Marsh Casualties
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sylvan Library

[Qweerios]

Nice list! It looks a lot like what I've been working on. I haven't been able to play much MtG lately due to work but the little I've done I've been rocking RUG or Grixis Delver with success (I never stopped slinging my beta bolts).

How is this brew working out for you? I feel like squeezing 3 Pyromancers in there and call it a day... Let's get to work!

First, given that we want to play Decay, we will want either black or green as our main complement to blue. I think we agree that the deck should be primarily UB given that black has the most to offer compared to green in terms of both main and side cards. I also think Grixis Delver, now without DRS, is a good comparison point for a core splashing green. Grixis has slowed down a lot since the banning and still retains a strong aggro-control plan without being the fastest Delver deck out there.

Here's what I am aiming for:

The classic Delver shell with 4 Delver, 4 Daze 4 FoW, 4 BS, 4 Ponder because those cards are essentially the essence of Delver;
A 4 Bolt 3 Decay removal suite because I think it is the best possible combination of versatile removal pre-board in today's meta;
A minimum of 2 Pierce and 2 TS as disruption against combo;
At least 2 Gurmags and 2 TNN to go big;
20 lands because we will likely want to make our first 3 land drops. I think 4 Wastelands, 9 Fetches, and 7 Duals is the way to go because 9 fetches gives you exactly one per opener.

This totals 8 threats (not enough), 27 spells (anything more should be 1-2 Preordain IMO), and 20 lands (enough). For the remaining cards I suggest 5 threats:

-A 3rd TNN because we already have 20 lands.
-At least 1 mainboard Bitterblossom because the card is amazing against all sorts of control and depths strategy. Playing multiples alongside Thoughtseize can be difficult (even impossible) so I wouldn't advise more than 2 copies.
-No more than 2-3 Pyromancers to smooth the curve and allow us to go wide. You only need 1 early Pyro to swarm a board and going wide is better than going hard against the swarm of control decks we see lately. I usually don't want to see 2 in my opener.

From this I get:

Threats (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Bitterblossom

Spells (27)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Badlands


Pretty much a standard Grixis list squeezing 3 Decays and a green splash...
I think working a proper sideboard will be the real challenge for this deck. I think the only green I'll pack in the SB will be 1 Grudge and 1 Golgari Charm, the rest should be standard Grixis stuff. I know I will be testing a pair of Tyrant's Scorn against Marrit Lage...

[Qweerios]

I spent my free time today working on a theoretical SB and a brief map for this beauty. Here's what I got:


3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Tyrant's Scorn
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bitterblossom


3 Surgical and 1 Cage is my go-to GY-hate package post DRS ban for Delver decks. Surgical flips Delver, costs 0, works with Thoughtseize against Combo decks, and most importantly is one of our best lines of defense against PFire and Loam from Lands. Cage is the best hoser at CMC 1 for Dredge, Reanimator, Elves, Storm and fringe Cabal Therapy decks (Nic Fit and Zombardment). I would play a 2/2 split but I respect Lands too much in my meta.

3 Pyroblast because I want a strong Miracles, Grixis, Stoneblade, and PteraDelver matchup. I have no answer to TNN so I intend on countering it. I find Pyroblast to simply be a must-have against Strix and gives me a huge supply of removal for Ptera and Delver. Now that I have Decay against CB and B2B I can use Pyroblasts to win counter wars and keep Miracles' card advantage in check (AK and Snap). I can't think of a better way to dominate UW Control decks with 3 Pyros and 3 Decays and so many resilient threats.

2 Flusterstorm is the cheapest, highest quality counterspell against combo decks. This card is mostly a concession to Reanimator (Chancelor) and Storm. It's also great against Grixis control (KCommand, Deluge, Casualties, Hymn, Snapcaster), a strict upgrade to Pierce in Delver matchups, and can come in against Miracles.

2 Tyrant's Scorn is a godsend against Marrit Lage, Reanimator, Smothers small creatures, and can save ours from removal. I find this card more widely applicable than Edict effects and can't wait to test it out.

1 Ancient Grudge against Batterskull and as a 4th quick answer to Chalice. I was debating between KCommand and Grudge but I opted for Grudge as an edge against DnT and equipments in general.

1 Dismember because I wanted an answer to Gurmag and Eldrazi and a 5th 1CMC removal spell that was easy to cast in a 4c deck. I originally had a Strix in that slot but I went for the cheaper and easier to cast option instead.

1 Umezawa's Jitte because if there was ever a Delver deck that could go above with Jitte, it is definitely this one. I wanted a versatile and powerful lategame bomb to take over DnT and Eldrazi in the advent that we need to catch up. Jitte can mount a comeback against an active Mom, a TNN, and an Eldrazi board with the added benefit of shutting down Elves. Jitte is usually quite mana intensive for a Delver deck but the fact that it is colorless, that we have 20 lands to support it and that a lot of our creatures are disposable puny 1/1s makes Jitte a sound choice. I find Jitte both more versatile and powerful than Marsh Casualties or Golgari Charm.

1 Bitterblossom that I couldn't fit in the main in order to really drive those control matchups home.

Here's a few matchups I took the time to map with this SB, starting with the top3 Aggro decks:

UR Delver
-1 Bitterblossom -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Spell Pierce, -4 Force of Will
+3 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Tyrant's Scorn, +1 Dismember, +1 Umezawa's Jitte

This way we can really take control of the matchup by removing most of our life loss and overwhelm them with a total of 13 removal spells and a Jitte

DnT and Maverick
-4 Force of Will, -2 Spell Pierce
+2 Tyrant's Scorn, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Dismember, +1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Bitterblossom

With plenty of answers to creatures and artifacts we should be able to ride any of our evasive threats to victory in time if we can simply make consistent land drops.

Eldrazi
-1 Bitterblossom, -2 Spell Pierce, -2 Thoughtseize/Daze (Draw/Play)
+2 Tyrant's Scorn, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Dismember, +1 Umezawa's Jitte

With plenty of ways to interact with fast lock pieces, Dismember and Scorn to deal with big Eldrazis, all we need to do is land a Gurmag or TNN and ride it to victory.

Top 3 Control decks + Lands:

Miracles
-4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Wasteland
+3 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Bitterblossom

Now with Decays, Bolts don't really have any place in that matchup as we can easily beat Mentors and have enough Pyroblasts to handle most of their permanents and card advantage. Wastelands lose a lot of value here when their plan involves B2B and playing around soft counters. Daze is probably the next worst card but at least it pitches to Force, buffers Flusterstorm and commands respect in the early turns when landing a Pyromancer or Blossom is crucial.

Stoneblade
-4 Force of Will, -3 Wasteland
+3 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Bitterblossom

Given the fair nature of this matchup where you have to deal with creature threats and don't have to contend with sweepers as much, I value Bolts over Force of Will in order to control Batterskull and race TNN. Just like Miracles, Wasteland doesn't have many targets here.

Grixis Control
-4 Lightning Bolt, -3 Abrupt Decay, -1 Tropical Island
+3 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Dismember, +1 Bitterblossom

Removal is virtually worthless in this matchup as it is all about controlling Strix and preventing incremental advantages from burying you. Pyroblast, Flusterstorm and Blossom are all great here. Grudge acts as repeatable Strix removal when on the Gurmag/Delver plan, and Dismember takes care of their fringe Gurmag/Kess.

Lands
-4 Daze, -2 Thoughtseize
+3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Tyrant's Scorn, +1 Bitterblossom

Scorn and Blossom gives us a good chance against Marrit Lage and hopefully we can Extract Loam or Wasteland and get to play a game.

Against various combo decks:

Sneak and Show
-4 Lightning Bolt, -3 True-Name Nemesis, -1 Bitterblossom
+3 Surgical Extraction, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm

I bring in Surgicals here because they can have a much bigger impact than a TNN. I also keep Decays postboard against the popular Blood Moon, Artisan, and Sphere of Resistance.

Depths
-4 Lightning Bolt, -1 Tropical Island
+2 Flusterstorm, +2 Tyrant's Scorn, +1 Bitterblossom

Answers to Marrit Lage, Decays for Needle and Safekeeper.

Storm
-3 Abrupt Decay, -1 Bitterblossom, -2 Tropical Island
+3 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Grafdigger's Cage

No need for green in this matchup.

Reanimator
-1 Bitterblossom, -4 Lightning Bolt, -3 Abrupt Decay, -1 Tropical Island
+3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Tyrant's Scorn, +1 Grafdigger's Cage

Elves
-4 Daze, -2 Spell Pierce
+2 Tyrant's Scorn, +1 Dismember, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Bitterblossom

Plenty of reach, blockers, and removal.

[Stevestamopz]

https://mobile.twitter.com/marshall_is_mad/status/1131800889373499393

Look at this mad lad!

[Qweerios]

https://mobile.twitter.com/marshall_is_mad/status/1131800889373499393

Look at this mad lad!

Haha I wonder where he got the idea! :P

Identical maindeck and the sideboard is a dead giveaway!

Anyways I am happy for his results and that the deck works out for somebody else.

[Skebunkler]

Wrenn and Six seems like a great addition that can help 4C and the mana denial package work together.

Here is the list that I will be giving a go this week. Let me know if I've made any glaring mistakes as I am still new to brewing decks.

//Land
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

// Sorcery
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

//Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce

// Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dreadhorde Arcanist
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Young Pyromancer

//Planeswalker
2 Wrenn and Six



// Sideboard
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Bitterblossom
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Cindervines
1 Hydroblast
1 Null Rod
2 Pact of Negation
2 Pyroblast
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Surgical Extraction


Let me know if you think there is a better list, but this seemed like a solid jumping point for bUrg.

Thanks!

[JackaBo]

Wrenn and Six seems like a great addition that can help 4C and the mana denial package work together.

Here is the list that I will be giving a go this week. Let me know if I've made any glaring mistakes as I am still new to brewing decks.

//Land
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

// Sorcery
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

//Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce

// Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dreadhorde Arcanist
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Young Pyromancer

//Planeswalker
2 Wrenn and Six



// Sideboard
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Bitterblossom
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Cindervines
1 Hydroblast
1 Null Rod
2 Pact of Negation
2 Pyroblast
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Surgical Extraction


Let me know if you think there is a better list, but this seemed like a solid jumping point for bUrg.

Thanks!

I hope you mean force of negation in the board. I think you run too many lands for s tempo deck but maybe you need that to not get color screwed? Could some if the duals be the new cycler duals? I think you’re missing out on blacks best threats, Angler, as well and I’m not sure how good arcanist actually is in a list that is not dedicated.

[Stevestamopz]

I too have been working on finding a deck to abuse W&6. Obviously it's great for greedy mana-base decks but it does a hell of a lot for a 2 mana investment.

Went 3-1 yesterday with my list below at it's first running.

UB Midrange ft Ninja of the Deep Hours: 2-0
UB Shadow: 2-1
Dragon Stompy: 1-2
Infect: 2-0

The Dragon stompy matchup was very close, I blitzed him in game 1 (turn 4 kill), he locked me out in game 2 while I was stuck on 1 land and in game 3 I couldn't finish him off after he resolved an Ensnaring Bridge. I managed to counter the next couple of lock pieces but couldn't find any of my 3 Decays or my Grudge/Cindervines to blow the Bridge up and close out the game and I eventually ran out of countermagic for his Moons. Not complaining, but just explaining that this deck isn't any weaker to Blood Moon or Chalice than Grixis/RUG, it's actually stronger against those sorts of decks because you have so many answers + countermagic (you obviously just have to draw them lol).

//Creature (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

//Instant (22)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce

//Planeswalker (2)
2 Wrenn and Six

//Sorcery (4)
4 Ponder

//Land (20)
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Bitterblossom
SB: 1 Cindervines
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt

[Scott]

Validating what you guys have been saying--about W&6 facilitating greedy mana bases, among other things--a 4-Color Delver list with Wrenn and Six won the recent MTGO Challenge. (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2019-07-08)

// Planeswalker (3)
3 Wrenn and Six

// Creature (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dreadhorde Arcanist
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

// Sorcery (6)
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize

// Instant (19)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

// Land (20)
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Liliana's Triumph
SB: 2 Plague Engineer
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Winter Orb

[Qweerios]

Since the spoiling of W6, BURG has been on my mind. To echo my previous post, I think the key element to make BURG viable will be to keep the 4th color to a minimum. The main difference from last time is that W6 pushes us primarily into red and green. Therefore BURG is back to RUG splash black for Decay instead of Grixis splash green for Decay. I think the main question regarding this deck from now on will be "to Mongoose or not to Mongoose".

I think Mongoose and Goyf are in a pretty good spot right now if you consider backing them up with W6. The combination of Mongoose, TNN, W6 pre-board and Bitterblossom postboard sounds nightmarish for all the control decks in the meta right now. Furthermore, the combination of W6, TNN, Goyf, Bolts, and Decay pre-board is enough to handle most Aggro and Stompy decks out there. Having access to 4 colors against combo has always been a huge boon against any Combo deck post-board so I think it's safe to say that we can cover that.

This is where I'm at right now:

Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells (26)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Other (2)
2 Wrenn and Six

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands

Sideboard
2 Bitterblossom
2 Plague Engineer
2 Force of Negation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Dismember
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb


I try to play as little black cards as possible so that I am not reliant on any early Underground Sea. This is why there is no Thoughtseize (Spell Pierce is great right now anyway) and only 19 lands. Black is there for Decay, post-board Bitterblossom against control decks, a single Edict effect against Marrit Lage (combined with Blossom against Depths), and for Plague Engineer which is quite an amazing card. All the other black cards have an optional black cost such as Surgical Extraction, Dismember, and Nihil Spellbomb which are usable with only colorless mana.

I am looking forward to seeing other variants poping up! This deck is great...

[Meithen]

Since the spoiling of W6, BURG has been on my mind. To echo my previous post, I think the key element to make BURG viable will be to keep the 4th color to a minimum. The main difference from last time is that W6 pushes us primarily into red and green. Therefore BURG is back to RUG splash black for Decay instead of Grixis splash green for Decay. I think the main question regarding this deck from now on will be "to Mongoose or not to Mongoose".

I think Mongoose and Goyf are in a pretty good spot right now if you consider backing them up with W6. The combination of Mongoose, TNN, W6 pre-board and Bitterblossom postboard sounds nightmarish for all the control decks in the meta right now. Furthermore, the combination of W6, TNN, Goyf, Bolts, and Decay pre-board is enough to handle most Aggro and Stompy decks out there. Having access to 4 colors against combo has always been a huge boon against any Combo deck post-board so I think it's safe to say that we can cover that.

This is where I'm at right now:

Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells (26)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Other (2)
2 Wrenn and Six

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands

Sideboard
2 Bitterblossom
2 Plague Engineer
2 Force of Negation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Dismember
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb


I try to play as little black cards as possible so that I am not reliant on any early Underground Sea. This is why there is no Thoughtseize (Spell Pierce is great right now anyway) and only 19 lands. Black is there for Decay, post-board Bitterblossom against control decks, a single Edict effect against Marrit Lage (combined with Blossom against Depths), and for Plague Engineer which is quite an amazing card. All the other black cards have an optional black cost such as Surgical Extraction, Dismember, and Nihil Spellbomb which are usable with only colorless mana.

I am looking forward to seeing other variants poping up! This deck is great...


I'm really liking your starting point, I'm also wanting to splash black but still work around the reactive game-play of RUG. Here's where I was starting out.


Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells (26)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Other (2)
2 Wrenn and Six

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands

Sideboard
2 Plague Engineer
2 Force of Negation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Liliana's Triumph
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Cindervines
1 Spell Snare


Stifle is one of the reasons why I love RUG and I think it's very important to be able to protect from opposing Wastelands with this manabase. I look forward to testing this and figuring out where it needs to go. I really like the Dismember in the board, I used to run 2 so I might adjust to your removal setup.

[Qweerios]

I too enjoy Stifle in these lists but I don't like reactive blue spells when I play with Badlands. I also find it difficult to justify a black splash for 2 Decays.

[eldub]

The best black spell is Plague Engineer that you gain access to form the splash, imo. TS is whatever and Decay is just a nice hedge in the MD.

[Stevestamopz]

The best black spell is Plague Engineer that you gain access to form the splash, imo. TS is whatever and Decay is just a nice hedge in the MD.

Check out this thread, it sounds like this deck might be more up your alley: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27776-Deck-Canadian-Threshold-(aka-RUG-Delver-Tempo-Thresh)

[eldub]

4C Delver mirror in the finals of the MTGO Legacy Challenge, sounds like kentaro_hokori had quite a run -- apparently not losing a single game in the swiss (GWP 1.0000) and going 6-1 in games in the Top8. 20-1 in Games played!

Looks like Gurmag vs Arcanist in the tertiary threat slot and just a few cards +/- in the SB difference between the two lists.

4C Delver also took down MKM Frankfurt, also sporting Gurmag: https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31337&iddeck=268536

Unfortunately he was later DQ'd for cheating. Hope he eats a lifetime ban. http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/2019/08/04/statement-on-disqualification/

[Dice_Box]

If someone would like to do even a basic primer on the newer deck please let me know. It feels odd putting this with an opening post talking about DRS in the DTB section.

[Qweerios]

With Canadian Threshold straying from Mongoose and Stifle in favor of W6 and Arcanist, and BURG keeping black to a minimum for 2 Decay and maybe Gurmag, the two decks are pretty similar. It's a bit like comparing UW Stoneblade to UWr Stoneblade (2 Bolts main and Pyro/Moon SB) at this point. Given how RUG moved away from Stifle-tempo-Mongoose with W6 and how BURG is not really BURG anymore without DRS, I think the two decks can safely merge into a new archetype based on the combination of Delver + W6.

If we can come up with a name that isn't as lame as "Midrange Delver", "4c Delver" or "Delver and Six", I am willing to make a primer on the 4c/RUG Delver/W6 archetype. It's always been my competitive deck of choice in Legacy and I've been on it since DRS was spoiled.

[Darkgobs]

[...]
If we can come up with a name that isn't as lame as "Midrange Delver", "4c Delver" or "Delver and Six", I am willing to make a primer on the 4c/RUG Delver/W6 archetype. It's always been my competitive deck of choice in Legacy and I've been on it since DRS was spoiled.

If you do a primer, it will have two main consequences:
1) We will all be really grateful !
2) You'll be in a good & legit spot to name the deck to your convenience!

;-)

[BirdsOfParadise]

Speaking as a long-time lurker, I like your write-ups, Qweerios.

[xkeeperx]

OKO is the new W6.

He's Spicy in BUG and even plays well with bolt by putting everything (challice included) into a boltable target.

He cancels Challice, 20/20 merit lege, and more

Bob is amazing and will become a 3/3 in no time.

Flyer adds pressure & keeps your draws smooth like Bob.

Stifle is not on this list, but we can go bigger and longer. We eat delver decks by playing 2x Snare & Crucible of Worlds in SB

List Here - but the SB needs tuning.

Instant (22)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Assassin's Trophy
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Fatal Push
1x Force of Negation
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare

Sorcery (3)
3x Ponder

Planeswalker (3)
3x Oko, Thief of Crowns

Land (19)
1x Bayou
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Creature (13)
2x Dark Confidant
4x Delver of Secrets Flip
2x Grim Flayer
4x Tarmogoyf
1x True-Name Nemesis

////SIDEBOARD CONSIDERATIONS/////

1x Bitterblossom
2x Courser of Kruphix
2x Curious Obsession
2x Dark Confidant
3x Drown in the Loch
1x Flusterstorm
2x Force of Negation
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Grim Flayer
1x Hydroblast
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Oko, Thief of Crowns
1x Plague Engineer
2x Saheeli, Sublime Artificer
2x Sylvan Library
4x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Vendilion Clique

How would you slice and dice the SB?

[Qweerios]

I don't believe Oko is anywhere near the same power level as W6. Oko is interresting though and worth consideration.

This last list clearly plays no red spells so I'm not sure it belongs in a BURG thread even though we are starved for activity...

Even though 4c Delver is possible via W6, there is simply not enough incentive to extend into black with all the tools availlable to RUG. The only thing that BURG has over RUG is Abrupt Decay. Decay and the black lands clearly pushes the Delver n 6 archetype in a midrange direction while RUG can choose on what end of the tempo-midrange spectrum it stands.

[xkeeperx]

I don't believe Oko is anywhere near the same power level as W6. Oko is interresting though and worth consideration.


Even though 4c Delver is possible via W6, there is simply not enough incentive to extend into black with all the tools availlable to RUG. The only thing that BURG has over RUG is Abrupt Decay. Decay and the black lands clearly pushes the Delver n 6 archetype in a midrange direction while RUG can choose on what end of the tempo-midrange spectrum it stands.



Totally worth considering. He's super powerful because he sticks around MOST of the game. He becomes a must answer threat, that when backed up by X/4s (Goyf, Grim, Scooze TNN, etc) - he neuters the opponents creatures. You always WIN combat.

This last list clearly plays no red spells so I'm not sure it belongs in a BURG thread even though we are starved for activity...

I am trying a version with 4x Bolt over 4x push. The reach is nice and KCommand is nasty to recur your threats! Oh, goyf/Confidant died? Get it back.

The black is for digging imo & decay. 4X bolt makes it more red, but the engine of Bob & Grim made me play BUG in the past & in modern. Hell UB delver is insane with Bob.

BUG is the grindiest of them all - parlaying and overwhelming jund with UR ALLSTAR [[Saheeli, Sublime Artificer]]. & does work v DnT, killing vials, thalias, equipment, etc


Discussion is blowing up on reddit HERE

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/dlegs9/oko_is_the_new_w6/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/dlegs9/oko_is_the_new_w6/)

[Jesture]

This last list clearly plays no red spells so I'm not sure it belongs in a BURG thread even though we are starved for activity...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27874-Deck-Team-America-(BUG-Delver)

This is the link for the BUG Delver thread. Please post your list there if you'd like to continue discussing it.

[Meithen]

Any madlads in here going to keep playing a 4c Delver list?