[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[Fox]

Don't love the Thin Lizzies [Pteramander], nor the Mishra's Bauble singleton, but nice to see the 1/1 Cindervines split doing well: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20983&f=LE (205 decks). Move away from Stifle and Goose at same time was pretty bold, but I generally like downplaying the Stifle side of this deck. Replacing said Stifles with Preordain while also going up to 19 lands struck me as odd. Anyways congrats to Yoan42, and hoping he/she can write up a tournament report if they use the Source.

[Jesture]

Don't love the Thin Lizzies [Pteramander], nor the Mishra's Bauble singleton, but nice to see the 1/1 Cindervines split doing well: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20983&f=LE (205 decks). Move away from Stifle and Goose at same time was pretty bold, but I generally like downplaying the Stifle side of this deck. Replacing said Stifles with Preordain while also going up to 19 lands struck me as odd. Anyways congrats to Yoan42, and hoping he/she can write up a tournament report if they use the Source.

Pretty sure that's a fake decklist, there's no record of it on the 5-0 compilation.

[Fox]

Pretty sure that's a fake decklist, there's no record of it on the 5-0 compilation.

That's because it was the legacy challenge which was longer than 5 rounds, and included a cut to top 8? [Also, unless something changed, I don't think wotc even publishes all 5-0 lists]

[Jesture]

That's because it was the legacy challenge which was longer than 5 rounds, and included a cut to top 8? [Also, unless something changed, I don't think wotc even publishes all 5-0 lists]

This isn't a Legacy challenge, mtgtop8 links and refers to it as a 'MTGO Legacy league 5-0 Compilation.'

Here is the alleged source https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-legacy-constructed-league-2019-01-19. Nowhere in there does Cindervines or Yoan42 appear, which leads me to believe that someone uploaded a fake 5-0 decklist to mtgtop8.

[Fox]

How interesting, hopefully someone who played the challenge can clear this all up.

[Qweerios]

I played some Noble RUG at a monthly and a weekly and got to play some great games! Here's a small report:


Creatures (15)
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Hooting Mandrills

Spells (26)
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Tarfire
1 Dismember
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Sideboard
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Abrade
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Winter Orb
1 Sylvan Library


Monthly 2-2 drop

R1: 2-1 vs. 4c Loam
G1 I run him over with Goyf and Delver
G2 I Force T1 Chalice and get Waste+Loam+Lily out of the game.
G3 Goyf and TNN take him out quickly.

R2: 1-2 vs. Burn
G1 I get stuck on 1 land against a tripple Goblin Guide hand.
G2 a pair of Goyfs and counters get there easily.
G3 I missplay and lose a T2 2/3 Goyf to a suspended Rift Bolt thinking it was an instant. I eventually stabilize at 4 life with Goyf and Ooze on an empty board with Pierce and FoW backup and plenty of creatures in the GY but I die to Exquisite Firecraft...

R2: 2-0 vs. BR Reanimator
G1 and G2 I have a counterspell for everything he does.

R4: 0-2 vs. DnT
G1 He opens with a Vial into tripple Waste so I lose.
G2 I'm in a great position with Library, Noble, Mandrill, and 2 TNN whiles hes at 8 life but he has an active Mom and swings with Crusader equiped with SoFaI and kills mongoose. Library didn't find any burn or artifact removal to close it.

After that tournament I cut a Spell Snare for a basic Island.

Weekly 3-1

R1: 2-1 vs. Deadguy Ale
G1 Easy ride on double Goyf
G2 I get stuck on Trop and Noble against a Spirit of the Labyrinth. I can't cantrip or Bolt and my threats are TNN and Grim so I lose to Sculler and Spirit beats
G3 I am facing a tripple Wasteland opener but my basic Island allows me to develop and lock him under Orb. Delver gets there.

R2: 1-2 vs. Lands
G1 I get Noble into tripple Delver opener but 2 turns and Brainstorm won't give me a flip. I nearly lose to Tabernacle but close it out for exactsies when my opponent missplayed.
G2 I have a great opener with a Noble Goyf Library and counters. Library gives me a bunch of cards and Surgical but regular land drops into T4 Marrit Lage kills me
G3 I get a Noble opener with Ooze and Pierce but get Wasted. I cantrip into Island and get Ghost Quartered + Loam and never find another land.

R3: 2-1 vs. Grixis Delver
G1 I face a Delver opener with double Wastelands but my 1-lander has 3 Delvers and a Daze so I fetch an Island and run him over while he cantrips away.
G2 I have a perfect hand of Noble with threats removal and lands but I lose to a mulligan to 5 with 2 Delvers and a Gurmag while I flood with 4 consecutive land draws.
G3 I have an explosive Noble opener with Delver Bolt Goyf Daze and Mandrill. I clear his board and empty my threats on board by T4 and he never gets back up.

R4: 2-0 vs. Grixis Control
G1 I ride an early Goyf and Waste to victory
G2 I ride a quick double Goyf opener with Daze and Noble

Going forward I need a better plan against Lands. Even if I manage to extract Loam I have no good way to stop Marrit Lage. I have my eyes on Dead // Gone over Tarfire and/or Grim. Here's my boarding plan:

In: 1 Ooze 3 Surgical 2 Abrade 1 Revelry 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 4 Bolt 1 Dismember 1 Tarfire 1 Snare 2 Daze

Any ideas?

[Ralf]

Going forward I need a better plan against Lands. Even if I manage to extract Loam I have no good way to stop Marrit Lage. I have my eyes on Dead // Gone over Tarfire and/or Grim. Here's my boarding plan:

In: 1 Ooze 3 Surgical 2 Abrade 1 Revelry 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 4 Bolt 1 Dismember 1 Tarfire 1 Snare 2 Daze

Any ideas?

Yep.
Dead//gone is real. 1 MD 1 side or just 1 side to keep the tarfire.

Unsubstantiate is another card but doesn't kill a creature.
It gets pass through a cavern of soul and could be a massive tempo gain. It also can save one creature.
But it is 90% CDA.

[Turboninja]

I am taking the following list to a local team trio tomorrow. Any thoughts on my list?

Lands (19):

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Creatures (13):

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Pteramander
1 True-Name Nemesis

Non-Creature Spells (28):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Abrade
1 Dismember

Sideboard (15):
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Winter Orb
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Pithing Needle

There isn't anything very special with this list, apart from the 19th land which I found to be helpful with casting TNN, playing against B2B and against Assassin's Trophy. Also, I always seem to enjoy drawing Pteramander late game, but not early game. Having a singleton instead of the 4th goyf has been good up until now.

Finally, I kept the mongeese instead of going for Noble Hierarchs as some of you have done. I love them for the control matchups and have always found it to be our best creature. Also, having access to Rough//Tumble makes Elves and D&T great matchups.

Am I too soft to graveyard strategies?

Thanks for your input!

[Fox]

Not having 2x Cindervines in your 75 is almost certainly just wrong. Destructive Revelry left legacy's card pool the moment Cindervines was printed, just like Disfigure did once Push came out. Choose the card that is can be played proactively, win a game, and can actually kill a Counterbalance (assuming it comes down before). Cindervines also importantly lets you tap down into an incoming Choke/B2B.

[KobeBryan]

Not having 2x Cindervines in your 75 is almost certainly just wrong. Destructive Revelry left legacy's card pool the moment Cindervines was printed, just like Disfigure did once Push came out. Choose the card that is can be played proactively, win a game, and can actually kill a Counterbalance (assuming it comes down before). Cindervines also importantly lets you tap down into an incoming Choke/B2B.

I don't agree with this 100%. One is an instant the other enchantment. I'm not sure who exposes their enchantments to get killed or removed just to wait for the card that needs to be removed

[kombatkiwi]

I don't agree with this 100%. One is an instant the other enchantment. I'm not sure who exposes their enchantments to get killed or removed just to wait for the card that needs to be removed

I don't agree with the statement that "Not having 2x Cindervines in your 75 is almost certainly just wrong" but I do believe it's much better than Destructive Revelry. It's not helpful to talk about hypotheticals in this way when we need to consider concrete examples in the current metagame. There are salient examples of where Vines is better than Revelry:

- Threat vs control decks (you could board Revelry vs Miracles if you wanted but it seems considerably worse than Vines overall even if they can potentially use Disenchant / CJ on it.)
- Potential anti-storm card (Disenchant/Revelry not even worth considering here)
- Comes down before problematic hate permanents that make it difficult to cast RG removal spells (B2B, Counterbalance, Blood Moon, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, Choke)
- Card type enchantment has Tarmogoyf-boosting applications

Where are spots where Revelry is actually better?

You need a confluence of so many things
1. It's a matchup where the Pillar effect is insignificant / irrelevant
or
2. Your opponent is playing Enchantment removal AND You get punished for sandbagging vines to use as 1RG sorcery Revelry
or
3. Your opponent still has Needle/Revoker/Spyglass effects after sideboarding
or
4. RG + 1 is significantly worse than just RG
and
5. You don't care about resolving your kill spell before the targeted permanent OR being able to hide Revelry in your hand to surprise the opponent with it at instant speed is relevant

The most obvious example of a matchup where at least some of these things are true is DNT, which is why I think Cindervines is a complement to Grudge rather than a replacement. I think you can afford the SB slots to do this because Cindervines also has anti-control applications. The net effect is that your Stompy matchup should improve (because now you have 2 Grudge + 1-2 Cindervines) plus you get extra coverage vs other decks like Enchantress and Storm, and at no cost to your other matchups because Vines is hopefully as good against Miracles/Grixis as whatever other card was in that slot beforehand

[Turboninja]

I replaced the single Destructive Revelry with a Cindervines for the short tournament. It was only 3 rounds, which I all won. 2-0 against UB Shadow, 2-1 against D&T, 2-1 against UWR Splinterblade. Cindervines came in against D&T and Splinterblade. In both cases it was good, but did not feel so much better than Revelry. I will try it out some more as your comments have convinced be there is more upside than downside. I like to be able to boost my Goyf in a pinch (targeting itself in dire cases). Thanks for the tips!

[Fox]

Just remember, when it targets self it becomes an illegal target (in yard) and will not ding you for two. :wink:

[now]

Anyone see the list that went 5–2 (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1665332) with 2 Tarfire main and 3 Cindervines and 2 Entrancing Melody in the sideboard?

I don’t get Entrancing Melody and I wonder if you really want 4 red blast effects, but I like the rest.

[Turboninja]

Anyone see the list that went 5–2 (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1665332) with 2 Tarfire main and 3 Cindervines and 2 Entrancing Melody in the sideboard?

I don’t get Entrancing Melody and I wonder if you really want 4 red blast effects, but I like the rest.

You can get a Marit Lage with it. Why would they make the token during their own turn escapes me though. Any other target seems like way too much mana.

[BKclassic]

You can get a Marit Lage with it. Why would they make the token during their own turn escapes me though. Any other target seems like way too much mana.

You can also snag Death's Shadow.

[JackaBo]

You can get a Marit Lage with it. Why would they make the token during their own turn escapes me though. Any other target seems like way too much mana.

DD always makes Marit on their own turn versus a typical wasteland deck and on endstep versus a typical Jace deck.

[KobeBryan]

Anyone see the list that went 5–2 (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1665332) with 2 Tarfire main and 3 Cindervines and 2 Entrancing Melody in the sideboard?

I don’t get Entrancing Melody and I wonder if you really want 4 red blast effects, but I like the rest.

This is legacy man...there's gotta be better cards than Entrancing Melody to steal a creature on your side.

Especially when you want to steal something like Emrakul, griselbrand, or others

Entrancing Melody only steals tokens.

[Fox]

This is legacy man...there's gotta be better cards than Entrancing Melody to steal a creature on your side.

Especially when you want to steal something like Emrakul, griselbrand, or others

Entrancing Melody only steals tokens.

Gilded Drake, it's your time to shine! :laugh:

[KobeBryan]

Gilded Drake, it's your time to shine! :laugh:

I know...i was just being snarky

[kombatkiwi]

It must be for Marit Lage because if you're stealing any creature that costs 1 or more it's basically a worse Threads (I don't expect you will bring this expecting to steal a creature with CMC 3 or more)

I think you can probably use Wasteland to force them to make Lage in some situations where you have UU for Melody but it seems both difficult to use for this purpose AND an extremely narrow use of 2 sideboard slots

[KobeBryan]

It must be for Marit Lage because if you're stealing any creature that costs 1 or more it's basically a worse Threads (I don't expect you will bring this expecting to steal a creature with CMC 3 or more)

I think you can probably use Wasteland to force them to make Lage in some situations where you have UU for Melody but it seems both difficult to use for this purpose AND an extremely narrow use of 2 sideboard slots

If that is the case, that is a poor inclusion because this deck has wastelands and stifles

[kombatkiwi]

If that is the case, that is a poor inclusion because this deck has wastelands and stifles

Depths is a seriously unfavoured matchup for this deck
Stifle means you have a better matchup compared to e.g. Grixis Delver with no Stifle but it's still definitely not something you want to play against
Its easy for them to combo off without playing any spell so all your Dazes, FoW etc are irrelevant, and you can't deal with on-board Marit Lage at all

[H]

Ark4n11 has put up at least one 5-0 with this list recently. The sideboard Melodies being for Marit Late specifically. I just love me some Winter Orb.

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Pteramander
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

1 Forked Bolt
1 Winter Orb

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island

SIDEBOARD
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Cindervines
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Entrancing Melody
1 Rough//Tumble
1 Forked Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

From what I've seen on stream, the Pteramanders are decent, and Goose seems reasonable in the meta right now.

[eldub]

Do you really want a UU sorcery speed answer to Marit Lage when they can often force an EOT activation in a world where Vapor Snag exists?

[H]

Do you really want a UU sorcery speed answer to Marit Lage when they can often force an EOT activation in a world where Vapor Snag exists?

Maybe? I mean, I don't think it's definitely a better choice, but if you can chump block and steal it, it's obviously pretty good.

In reality, you are likely right, since Snag can be brought in vs something like Angler and gets into the yard "easier" for 'Mander purposes.

[Qweerios]

Has anybody contemplated a Noble + Pteramander variant? Noble seems to provide good support to Pteramander by exalting an early flier and providing early mana for tempo plays and a quicker adapt. Some sort of beatdown variant to RUG with less emphasis on the disruption and more on board development that resembles the 8 dork Bant decks but with better standalone threats, more disruption, and Bolts.

Here's what I'm thinking about:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Pteramander
4 True-Name Nemesis

All evasive threats that benefit from exalted. Ptera is also a mana sink and we maximize our chances of enabling T2 TNN.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

A bunch of cantrips to make sure we flip Delver, fill our GY for Ptera, and use all of our mana to go through our deck faster.

2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Wasteland

Basic Delver disruption suite that capitalizes on cheap threats and fast mana.

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Flex slots for additional removal/disruption

Basic cheap removal suite and reach for our evasive threats.

8 Blue Fetch
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Island

As few lands as possible to make our first 2 land drops.

That way there is no messing around with holding mana for counters and we get to develop our board and have an insurmountable position by T4-5.

[Qweerios]

As a quick follow up to my last post I did test the deck and it went poorly. Pteramander is slow, vulnerable, and can be really difficult to adapt. He is worse than Mandrills and Angler but has some nice perks such as flying over TNN and pitching to FoW. Pteramander is fine as a 1-2of if you play Mongoose.

On a different note, check out the new Hexdrinker and Wrenn and Six. There are finally some good cards to play RG in legacy! Hexdrinker seems like a strict upgrade to Pteramander. Wrenn basically enables recurring Wastelands, recurring removal, card advantage and a great card type to grind control decks (especially Strix control). Wrenn looks easy enough to protect against Miracles and the emblem wins the game.

[JackaBo]

Wren looks really strong. Not so sure about the level up guy. You have to spend several mana in sorcery speed to make it anymore than a 1/1.

[Lava Snacks]

Wren looks really strong. Not so sure about the level up guy. You have to spend several mana in sorcery speed to make it anymore than a 1/1.

Hexdrinker starts at 2/1

[studderingdave]

Anyone trying the new horizon lands? I replaced one volc with the UR one, also running one wren and six in the main, otherwise pretty stock. the horizon lands hurt daze but help against choke, saved me in a game. and getting to recycle it with WnS was good to in the grindy matches.

[The Colonel]

Just out of curiosity; why is no one talking about Crashing Footfalls?

For those who don't know:

Sorcery
Suspend 4 - G
Put 2 4/4 Green Trampling rhino tokens into play.

[Turboninja]

I've thought about it. It costs 1, flips delver and is a win con in itself. It only starts attacking on turn 6 though, if you played it turn 1. It's probably bad.

[The Colonel]

Right, but I've been running RUG with the standard creature suit for awhile now and I've had many games where either I had a great disruption hand with no creatures, or 1 goose with no threshold, or a modest disruption hand with a couple creatures that get delt with. I'm thinking RUG wants the game to get to turn 8 and 9 which if you suspend Crashing Footfalls turn 2 or 3 you get a solid bomb after you've wastlanded, stifled, and dazed your opponent down. It seems like this could be back breaking with a fairly empty board. It also goes bigger and tramples over TNN.

[Ralf]

Right, but I've been running RUG with the standard creature suit for awhile now and I've had many games where either I had a great disruption hand with no creatures, or 1 goose with no threshold, or a modest disruption hand with a couple creatures that get delt with. I'm thinking RUG wants the game to get to turn 8 and 9 which if you suspend Crashing Footfalls turn 2 or 3 you get a solid bomb after you've wastlanded, stifled, and dazed your opponent down. It seems like this could be back breaking with a fairly empty board. It also goes bigger and tramples over TNN.

Yeah.
And sometimes you would draw it T4, 5 or 6...

Test will prevail but my feeling is "not good enough".

[kombatkiwi]

I was quite enthusiastic about the possibility of the Rhino card
- If you suspend it, it goldfishes as fast as a Delver that flips immediately
- You get 2 bodies for 1 card which is good vs spot removal like strix and plow
- Is a sorcery so it flips your delver
- Costs only 1 (unlike e.g. Goyf or TNN) but doesn't get countered by chalice on 1

Of course topdecking it late in the game it is potentially much worse

I think one thing that has made me less enthusiastic about this card over the course of the MH spoiler season and the short period after its release was the immediate adoption and impact of Wrenn and Six. There have been a few people having quite a lot of success online with lists like this:

18 Lands (standard manabase)
4 Delver
4 Goose
2 Tarmo
2 TNN

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Bolt
2 Wrenn and Six
2 Pierce

One player was on 3 Stifle, 2 Snare, 1 Chain Lightning
another was 4 Stifle, 1 Snare, 1 Forked Bolt

In this kind of list I think that having the immediate creature of Tarmo or TNN (rather than one with suspend) is a significant upgrade because you can deploy it onto the battlefield ASAP to protect your Wrenn and Six.
The fact that W6 provides card advantage in the form of extra lands also helps you to cast the more expensive threats (potentially with open mana behind) so the cheap 1 mana of Crashing Footfalls is a less-relevant upside, and the 2-body factor is also less important when one of the replacement threats is TNN which dodges spotremoval anyway.

[studderingdave]

Just starting to test with the deck, we have a 1k coming up this coming Saturday I plan on playing with Canadian Threshold. My build is fairly stock with one Wren and Six and a UR horizon land in the main. I managed a 2-0 in testing versus Miracles today between draft rounds. I'll try the rhino card and see how it pans out.

[Jonathan Alexander]

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Wrenn and Six

4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland

2 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder

//Sideboard
4 Winter Orb
2 Cindervines
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Negation
3 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction

[JackaBo]

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Wrenn and Six

4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland

2 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder

//Sideboard
4 Winter Orb
2 Cindervines
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
2 Force of Negation
3 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction

How has this been testing? 8 threats sound crazy but you’re the master of threat-light delver. 4 winter orb sound crazy as well, but it is indeed a very powerful card. You wouldnt swap one for null rod as it also chokes artifact mana and vials? My biggest issue is only own 2 BB old art Orbs.

[Fox]

I'd be putting the Cindervines main over Cspell and Stifle #4. This deck's worst matchups [particularly mainboard] have always been Vial, Hymn/SCM/Kcomm/Strix, CB, Chalice, and ANT. Cindervines helps vs all these things.

[studderingdave]

I have been playing test games all weekend, mostly into Death and Taxes, Turbo Depths, Miracles, Grixis Control and UR Delver. I met up with Dan Miller, one of the best Legacy players I know, and he helped me out with some finer tuning and testing. Lots of Modern Horizon stuff going into testing, we have a local 1K going on this coming saturday that ill be playing this in.

Land (19)

1x Fiery Islet
3x Flooded Strand
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland
1x Waterlogged Grove

Creature (10)

4x Delver of Secrets Flip
4x Nimble Mongoose
2x Pteramander

Instant (23)

4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
2x Force of Negation
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle
1x Vapor Snag

Sorcery (6)

1x Crashing Footfalls
1x Forked Bolt
4x Ponder

Planeswalker (2)

2x Wrenn and Six

Sideboard (15)

1x Ancient Grudge
2x Cindervines
1x Echoing Truth
1x Flusterstorm
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Life from the Loam
2x Pyroblast
1x Rough
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
1x Winter Orb

Crashing Footfalls can and will most likely be a third Wrenn and Six, as it was the least amusing addition to the deck. I have really been enjoying Wrenn and Six, especially in combination with Ghost Quarter and the new Horizon Lands, netting me a great deal of card draw to help close out games. The sideboard is more local meta oriented but I like it regardless. I have a short work week this week so Ill be grinding more games in preparation for Saturday.

[BKclassic]

I jammed some leagues over the weekend with a list around here:

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 True-Name Nemesis

3 Wren and Six

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember

3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Wren and Six is definitely quite good. It certainly has a much larger impact on the board compared to most other two drops. With regard to some of the above posted lists that aren't running True-Name Nemesis, that doesn't seem correct to me. The ability to cast True-Name Nemesis off extra lands from Wren and Six is part of what make the new planeswalker great, IMO. I don't know what hoops I want to jump through to run lands in the maindeck that draw cards; the traditional 18 land manabase is a major strength of this deck. Lonely Sandbar in the sideboard seems like it could be sweet though. Otherwise I'm not really sure what I want in the sideboard, Legacy seems pretty wide open right now.

[BKclassic]

Well I played some more leagues over the pass couple days. I cut a spell snare from the main for another spell pierce and basically ran this sideboard:

3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroblast
3 Abrade
2 Spell Snare
2 Blazing Volley
2 Lonely Sandbar

Lonely Sandbar was a great success when I could board it in. In one game I was playing against Enchantress. I countered some early Enchantress spells but eventually he resolved an Enchantress's Presence. Fortunately, I had assembled the Wren and Six and Lonely Sandbar combination. Thanks to the extra card advantage, I managed to hang on by Forcing some spells and Stifling draw triggers until I could ultimate Wren and Six. From there, I retraced Force of Will like 10 times on his key spells to win the game. RUG isn't really supposed to have good sources of card advantage, I definitely think Lonely Sandbar is sweet sideboard option for grindy match ups.

What I'm seeing though is that the league metagame is evolving such that it is dominated by Delver decks. Mainly UR Delver, followed by Canadian Threshold and then Grixis Delver. UR Delver definitely has some major upside in playing basic lands and Dreadhorde Arcanist can obviously run away with the game on an empty board, which none of our threats really do. Besides Delver decks, there is a pretty good Death and Taxes presence. I feel like Maverick used to be the Mother of Runes deck before Modern Horizons but the Aether Vials, Sanctum Prelates and now Phyrexian Revoker on Wren and Six are strong in this Delver heavy metagame.

I think Canadian Threshold is pretty 50/50 against UR Delver and Death and Taxes but is pretty effective against the remainder of the meta. So the key is going to be to figure out a way to optimize our match ups against those two decks. Spell Snare seems very good with all kinds of powerful 2 drops in the meta. Not sure what else can be done to improve those match-ups, my sideboard definitely still stinks though and I'm probably going to have to settle for a bunch of 1-of's.

[Ralf]

Well I played some more leagues over the pass couple days. I cut a spell snare from the main for another spell pierce and basically ran this sideboard:

3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroblast
3 Abrade
2 Spell Snare
2 Blazing Volley
2 Lonely Sandbar

Lonely Sandbar was a great success when I could board it in. In one game I was playing against Enchantress. I countered some early Enchantress spells but eventually he resolved an Enchantress's Presence. Fortunately, I had assembled the Wren and Six and Lonely Sandbar combination. Thanks to the extra card advantage, I managed to hang on by Forcing some spells and Stifling draw triggers until I could ultimate Wren and Six. From there, I retraced Force of Will like 10 times on his key spells to win the game. RUG isn't really supposed to have good sources of card advantage, I definitely think Lonely Sandbar is sweet sideboard option for grindy match ups.

What I'm seeing though is that the league metagame is evolving such that it is dominated by Delver decks. Mainly UR Delver, followed by Canadian Threshold and then Grixis Delver. UR Delver definitely has some major upside in playing basic lands and Dreadhorde Arcanist can obviously run away with the game on an empty board, which none of our threats really do. Besides Delver decks, there is a pretty good Death and Taxes presence. I feel like Maverick used to be the Mother of Runes deck before Modern Horizons but the Aether Vials, Sanctum Prelates and now Phyrexian Revoker on Wren and Six are strong in this Delver heavy metagame.

I think Canadian Threshold is pretty 50/50 against UR Delver and Death and Taxes but is pretty effective against the remainder of the meta. So the key is going to be to figure out a way to optimize our match ups against those two decks. Spell Snare seems very good with all kinds of powerful 2 drops in the meta. Not sure what else can be done to improve those match-ups, my sideboard definitely still stinks though and I'm probably going to have to settle for a bunch of 1-of's.

You should try to play the following creature lists:

4 Hexdrinker
4 Delver
4 Tarmo

With 2 or 3 Wren in your 60.

[H]

You should try to play the following creature lists:

4 Hexdrinker
4 Delver
4 Tarmo

With 2 or 3 Wren in your 60.

Is Hexdrinker really that much better than Mongoose? 1 mana is vastly less to pay for Shroud than 4, even if you can break it up over a couple turns. I mean, you do eventually get a 4/4, but you open yourself to also possibly to get blown out, spending 3 mana into a removal spell.

[Ralf]

Is Hexdrinker really that much better than Mongoose? 1 mana is vastly less to pay for Shroud than 4, even if you can break it up over a couple turns. I mean, you do eventually get a 4/4, but you open yourself to also possibly to get blown out, spending 3 mana into a removal spell.

You do.
It requires to spend only 1 mana/turn and leave 1 mana opened in the beginning but when you get Wren recurring fetchlands it is very nice.

In the mid and endgame if your opponent is hellbent. It is superior to goose.

Not to mention that spot ritual removals are very rare in legacy so that once 4/4, you have a lot of odds to turn him mini progenitus.

Finally 2/1 is better to pressure combo decks than a 1/1 without saying that 75 % of the time it will be a 4/4 before mongoose is a 3/3.

Just saying...

Test will always prevail but we might be impressed.
And with a 3 pierce config, it might be a real contender

[BeTeP]

I think Canadian Threshold is pretty 50/50 against UR Delver and Death and Taxes but is pretty effective against the remainder of the meta. So the key is going to be to figure out a way to optimize our match ups against those two decks. Spell Snare seems very good with all kinds of powerful 2 drops in the meta. Not sure what else can be done to improve those match-ups, my sideboard definitely still stinks though and I'm probably going to have to settle for a bunch of 1-of's.

UR can be difficult if it resolves tnn or pyro and create an army. That is their strength. If you want to increase chances to win, then you must run goyfs. UR simply have only bounce as answers and tnn, that is all. Also goyf is all star for a long time in mirror matches. People tests various things, but goyf remains best choice here.

DNT indeed is very hard to beat, but it can be beaten with strong sideboard. They need vial and equipment things to win. Other strongest card is prelate. So in this math up we need to focus on this 2 things. I found very helpful null rod and izzet staticaster. It is impotent to know that no other mass removal is as good as staticaster. What is so incredible about it? It can appear in eot and do some serious work. It can beat mom on its own. It can provide trades 2 for 0 or even better. Even if they have plow on it, they trades 2 to 1. The card is good also in elves and maverick math ups. When i saw meta full of decks of that kind i run 2 staticasters to max effect.

[H]

You do.
It requires to spend only 1 mana/turn and leave 1 mana opened in the beginning but when you get Wren recurring fetchlands it is very nice.

In the mid and endgame if your opponent is hellbent. It is superior to goose.

Not to mention that spot ritual removals are very rare in legacy so that once 4/4, you have a lot of odds to turn him mini progenitus.

Finally 2/1 is better to pressure combo decks than a 1/1 without saying that 75 % of the time it will be a 4/4 before mongoose is a 3/3.

Just saying...

Test will always prevail but we might be impressed.
And with a 3 pierce config, it might be a real contender

Those are some fair points. As you say, testing will be needed. However, what you point out, about late game and opponents hand being possibly empty, makes me wonder if Hexdrinker would be better in the old tap-out Hymn/Liliana BUG Delver decks we used to run, rather than here, where you are looking to keep mana up for Stifle and the like.

[Ralf]

Those are some fair points. As you say, testing will be needed. However, what you point out, about late game and opponents hand being possibly empty, makes me wonder if Hexdrinker would be better in the old tap-out Hymn/Liliana BUG Delver decks we used to run, rather than here, where you are looking to keep mana up for Stifle and the like.

This is a possibility as it may better shine in a BUG shell than a RUG one but the initial idea was to get some synergy with Wren.

Wren does allow us to operate on more than 2/3 lands as most of the time we'll be recurring fetchlands/wasteland:
1) If you are recurring wasteland you should already be in a winning position.
2) If you are recurring fetchlands, you are "thinning" a bit your library while being in a position where you could cast more expensive spells (possibly FOWs or creatures). Some will prefer playing TNNs (which was an obvious choice) and some may try to test something else (Hexdrinker was only a suggestion).
3) Or you are stacking lands in hand to make more value with your BS ...

Goose doesn't synergize well with Wren, IMHO.

As far as testing goes (on my side), the snake is really "nice" but I still miss data to draw any meaningful conclusion.

Ralf

[Fox]

People also said Goyf didn’t synergize with DRS. The #1 card holding Goose down was Strix, Wa6 is able to solve this problem multiple times over on a single card which also generates value into what is likely a game-winning emblem.

[FullTimeDan]

6/24/19 Legacy 4-0 (top 8 wanted to split as it was late)

edit: forgot to add my list

Main:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

2 Wrenn and Six

1 Sylvan Library

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will

3 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Waterlogged Grove
1 Fiery Islet
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter

Sideboard:

2 Ancient Grudge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Cindervines
1 Rough // Tumble
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Winter Orb
1 Izzet Staticaster


RD1 ANT Storm 2-1

GM1 - Slowed down my opponent with Ghost Quarter on their only black source swamp. Was able to stop opponents first combo attempt with FoW. Opponent Ad Naus’d down to 1 life and my hand of 3 stifles was enough to ensure they couldn’t storm through hand disruption.

- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 2 Tarmogoyf
- 1 Sylvan Library
- 1 Forked Bolt
- 1 Dismember
- 1 Wasteland
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 2 Cindervines
+ 2 Flusterstorm

GM2 - Stopped first combo attempt, and risked tapping out for one turn to land Cindervines when my opponent was on 4 cards. Turns out they drew the nuts twice in a row and killed me that turn.
GM3 - Landed a turn one delver. Opponent made a mistake of casting Swarm before duress. Hand of Bolt, Fluster, Spell Snare, Daze led me to victory.


RD2 Show and Tell 2-1

GM 1 - My opponent t1 SnT’d a Griselbrand and I had no FoW

- 4 Lightning Bolt
- 2 Tarmogoyf
- 1 Sylvan Library
- 1 Spell Snare
- 1 Forked Bolt
- 1 Dismember
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Cindervines
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Winter Orb
+ 2 Surgical Extraction


GM 2 - Opponent didn’t know what I was playing as gm1 didn’t last long enough. Was able to land 2 Nimbles and counter his relevant spells. Game ended when I ghost quarter his mountain, and stifled his only activation of Sneak Attack.
GM 3 - Opponent spent a removal spell and double FoW to kill my T1 Delver. Left him on near empty. Landed a Wrenn and Six and waste land locked him out of the game.


RD3 Black Vise Burn 2-1

Was a less experienced player and actually helped them remember a lot of eidolon triggers and sequence spells correctly. (I used to play Burn)

GM1 - Had a land disruption heavy hand, and mono mountain burn did its thing, capped off with a massive Price of Progress.

- 1 Sylvan Library
- 1 Dismember
- 1 Wasteland
- 4 Stifle
- 2 Winter Orb
- 2 Cindervines
- 2 Flusterstorm
- 1 Rough // Tumble

GM2 - Opponent flooded out pretty heavily, and my Nimble and Cindervines was able to widdle him down with plenty of disruption in hand.
GM3 - Opponent was pretty mana screwed, and double Cindervines, Nimble took it home.


RD4 Standstill Merfolk 2-0

GM1 - An Early Nimble and Delver, a FoW for Standstill, and no lords from my Opponent got the win

- 4 Stifle
- 1 Sylvan Library
- 1 Wasteland
- 2 Red Elemental Blast
- 2 Ancient Grudge
- 2 Cindervines
(can’t remember if I boarded more than this, but I for sure did this at least)

GM2 - A t1 Delver. Had a large counter fight over my opponents Chalice of the Void on one, which left them nearly empty handed. I followed with a Wrenn and Six to waste his Mutavaults and keep him low on mana got there.


Conclusion

I was lucky to get paired against favorable matchups, and dodged DnT, Karn, and Maverick. Overall, though I was matched up against decks that are pretty resilient to land disruption, Wrenn and Six and my token Ghost Quarter really shined. W+6 even though they didn’t lock out our opponent most times, alleviated pressure from my life total as well as helping thin my deck and provide chip damage in very close matches. I think Fiery Islet and Waterlogged Grove is too much. There were a few hands I had to mulligan and situations that were sketchy to be in because daze was a dead card with them. I think I might go up a dual and cut one of them. Because the recurring card draw is nice when I can set it up. I would have liked to test against some of my worse matchups to test out my side board plan, but overall I was very pleased with how I played and how the deck performed for me. Let me know your thoughts.

[Beast]

Have played the following list in a small tournament (5 rounds) in Hamburg, Germany past saturday:

//Mana
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

//Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 True-Name Nemesis

//Permanents
2 Wrenn and Six

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

//Sideboard
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Cindervines
1 Electrickery
1 Entrancing Melody
2 Flusterstorm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hooting Mandrills
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Winter Orb

Match 1 vs. Sneak & Show
Didn't know what he was on before the round. First game I kept a balanced hand with Daze and Pierce but no Force, Dismember, Goose, Cantrip and Mana. Unfortunately I then started flooding out on lands and creatures and my opponent had one mana open when casting Sneak Attack with Force backup so I could only daze in order to prevent him from activating SA immediately and hope for a couple of Stifles from the top. Didn't work out, he sneaked in Grisel the next turn, took 7, then cast S&T for Omni, going to 5 in the process while I put Nemesis in and had a mana open to Dismember Grisel when it would come at me so that he would not draw 7 again (and also die in my backswing) as a last resort. He cantripped several times and then found Emrakul.

I boarded Flusters, Blasts, Vines, Mandills and one Extraction for some removal, TNNs and both Wrenns.

Second game was devastating for him, he had to go down to 5 cards and was very light on mana so I just stifled and wasted him out of the game while an insect beat him up. He eventually lost with no permanents on the table.
Final game was kind of similar to the second one. He mulled to 5 again, got denied some of his mana and two little gooses were going for it. At 12 life he tried to go for SA but got stuck in a wall of counters. That counterwar allowed me to thresh the vermin on my turn by wasting a land of his and that ended the match the very next turn.

2:1

My opponent was very unexperienced and sided out all copies of S&T and Omni since he thought I would blast them anyway. Told him that he will have no safe combo agains me at all and therefore should leave all the pieces in in order to get more attempts from his topdeck and overload my counters.

Match 2 vs. Burn
I got paired against a buddy of mine who usually plays some sort of blue control or Aggro Loam. Not this time. I kept a good hand for any given grindy matchup and got burned off of the table pretty quickly.

I had not much to board in but a lot I wanted to get rid of in the main deck, so I sided out 4 Stifles, 2 Wrenns and Dismember for 2 Flusters, Forked Bolt, Abrade, Vines (at least serves as removal for Eidolons, Vortex and/or Pillars), Mandrills and Melody (also more kind of a desperate move but still better than what I was siding out I guess).

Second game I started of with a Delver which he tried to shoot 3 times before I finally had to let him resolve. That shrank his hand and gave me time so I deployed Nemesis and connected several turns while just trying not to get raced (which was not too hard given he took so many shots on my insect).

Third game... well I guess I shouldn't have won here. He lead with Guide and Eidolon, both of which I could get rid off by dazing Eidolon and bolting Guide at the same time, giving him a two land lead. He then managed to resolve another Eidolon and bolted me the following turns while attacking. I was at 8 and had 3 lands in play plus one in hand when I pondered and got revealed Melody and Mandrills. So I played Mandrills to block the road and the very next turn gained control of the Eidolon with Melody. People around had some fun witnessing that play and luckily for me it was the very opening I needed 'cause I got to clock him now without dying in the backswings. I forced a bolt of him, putting me to 4 life and all I had left was Pierce and Daze, him being at 6 Life at that point against my Ape and his Eidolon under my banner. Got lucky again when he found no Fireblast in his final turn.

2:1

Match 3 vs. Elves
Facing a friend of mine who drove us to the tournament in first place and to whom I lent my Elves deck beforehand. Game 1 I tried to defend myself against an early combo kill and deployed a Delver pretty fast. But since I play Garruk Relentless in my Elves list so does my opponent this time and the Delver gets to fight the planeswalker before it could transform. I get to shoot down transformed Garruk but his board advantage is huge and him hitting a Behemoth from the top doesn't make it any better for me...

I sided out some copies of TNN, Daze and Pierce to add all removal from the sideboard as well as Mandrills and Cage.

The second game I mulled to 6 and found a hand with first turn Delver accompanied by two Dazes and Ponder and stuff, so I keep and cast the little wizard. Unfortunately, my opponent had to have exactly Cavern of Souls as his first land drop so my Dazes are completely worthless from than point of the game. On top of that my Delver refuses to transform at all during the game despite the use of Ponder (which I had to shuffle), so I got outclassed and overrun pretty fast here since my deck would not cooperate at all.

0:2

Match 4 vs. 5-Color Control
This pairing is against another good friend of mine who went to play the greediest deck in the history of greedy decks just for the lulz. We playtested against each other during the week and the matchup is as bad for him as you would expect when Canadian gets to get its hands on a five color mana base.
Attacking his mana is exactly the thing I'm doing here and despite me not being able to apply much pressure early on he never gets to cast or resolve anything meaningful here and so eventually the Goose is on the loose (and on his face).

Boarding here is Blasts, Orb and Abrade for Dismember, Delver and I think 2 of Daze and Pierce or so.

Second game doesn't get any better for him. Wrenn and Six and a Wasteland are lurking for him to try and grab some duals with his fetches. At the same time a Goose starts to pressure him and whenever he tries to get an answer, I counter or destroy it and W&6 recycle the Wasteland afterwards so that he keeps losing lands with every move he makes. Nevertheless he still has enough of those and floods out pretty hard.

2:0

Match 5 vs. Aggro Loam
Well, another pairing against a guy from my playtesting group... Once again I get to do all the things Canadian likes to do in game 1 so that my opponent can't resolve anything that could possibly annoy me and as he sighs in relief that I did not counter his KotR with 3 lands in the grave, I dismember it to make him scoop.

Boarding is pretty much the same as above aside from the fact that I also sided in my Surgicals for some stuff I can't remember right now.

I get to follow up the second game just the way the first turned out to go. I can keep him low on mana and counter his most important stuff. As Goose and Nemesis start to knock him out, I also get to Grudge his Mox Diamond and as he finally gets to toxic deluge my board, I ponder to find a way to deal the final 5 points of damage and find another duo of Goose and Fish so that I lay out the vermin once again. He finds nothing to deal with any of Goose or Nemesis and extends his hand.

2:0

So in total I finish 4-1-0, my loss being against the eventual winner of the tournament. Therefore my opp score is enough to put me in second place. Since there's no Top 8 nor Top 4 playoff after swiss rounds, I end on said 2nd place.

------------------------------------

Thoughts on the deck are:
- W&6 is totally insane. There's hardly any spot you would not want have them. Maybe I will add #3 to the main deck.
- Due to W&6 you'll be making much more land drops and therefore can easily run a larger number of TNNs without having them stuck in your hand, which is great.
- I think the Mandills in the sideboard are awesome, since they are somewhat bullet proof and evasion to me is worth way more than Goyfs bigger body right now. Might also add a second copy.
- Melody is fun. :D
- Cindervines have been kind of underwhelming to 'til this point. Dunno, both effects seem to have little impact or are overpriced. However, I think you would want some sort of permanent hate against combo.

[goliaththegreat]

For those who have been testing Wrenn and Six, how has it gone? I have seen a lot of lists running the 2x W&6 but I'm not sure if it is people just testing or are they the real deal?

I have also seen some lists not playing Spell Snare and just playing 4 Spell Pierce. Is Snare in a bad spot right now?

[Beast]

For those who have been testing Wrenn and Six, how has it gone? I have seen a lot of lists running the 2x W&6 but I'm not sure if it is people just testing or are they the real deal?

I have also seen some lists not playing Spell Snare and just playing 4 Spell Pierce. Is Snare in a bad spot right now?

I think that W&6 have come to stay.
They provide better Brainstorms since you can get dead cards to your hand that BS trades for new ones and/or grab a shuffle effect if needed. They also allow Wasteland locks or simply additional land drops (which is way better than I first thought it would be -> it allows to play a higher curve and still be able to have open mana to react to your opponent's plays). W&6 are like Life from the Loam where you wouldn't need to skip draws or pay (1)(G) in order to use it over and over again.
At the same time they can get rid of Strix (therefore making Gooses great again) and other pesky stuff like Thalia (if you somehow manage to cast W&6 while Thalia is around), human-form Delvers and so on. So basically any way you use W&6, they will generate CA for you - which is great.
Last but not least, if you manage to get the emblem, you almost always win. And getting the emblem is not that hard if W&6 hit the board early enough and start to recycle a Wasteland since your opponent will hardly be able to do anything at all until you reach the ultimate. W&6 almost always exactly provide what Canadian need; they are mana denial, they give consistency to your own mana supply and draws, they can be removal and if not handled by the opponent, they are a direct win condition.
Honestly, I would rather play 3 than shave any from my list. They're so good!

The Snare vs. Pierce thing is as old as the printing of the latter, I guess. Currently, I like playing Pierce over Snare because there's only a few cases where Snare does something Pierce could not do or the deck could not answer otherwise. Snapcaster for example is just as dangerous as its trigger and pretty often Pierce will counter the flashback and you'll only have to deal with a 2/1 which should not be too much trouble in most cases. Same is true for Stifle on the trigger. Strix as another example can be shot in so many ways especially when having W&6 in the deck or is dodged by Nemesis or countered by Redblast after boarding. You can easily replace Strix for the likes of Thalia or YP here, they all are easy to kill and you just need to save a kill spell for them if possible. SFM as a final example can be stifled, bolted or handled postboard. And Tarmogoyf is hardly seeing play at all, so I wouldn't want to play a card more or less just in case my opponent plays Goyfs.
Most other targets for Snare can also be targeted by Pierce (Chalice, Counterbalance, Infernal Tutor, Blossom, ...) and pierce also helps against combos, in stack wars or to defend my win conditions if needed. It also has synergies with the mana denial plan as a whole as well as especially Winter Orb. It deals with planeswalkers, it deals with lock pieces like B2B or Moon. It's just so much more versatile right now in my opinion.

Note that Pierce > Snare is just my thoughts on the current meta game. If by tomorrow people start throwing around with Goyfs and stuff again, my mind might change in a heartbeat. ;)

[Scott]

RUG Delver got 9th, 17th, and 31st in the MTGO Challenge (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-challenge-2019-07-01). All played multiple Wrenn and Six. The 9th place list is really interesting; 3 Wrenn and Six, 4 Hexdrinker, 1 Abrade, 1 Fiery Islet.

[BKclassic]

Hello folks. I thought I would post an update on my attempts to conquer the league metagame with RUG. Here is what I have been playing:

4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Magmatic Sinkhole

4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
3 Abrade
2 Lonely Sandbar
1 Wren and Six
2 Gilded Drake
4 Tormod's Crypt

The point of the deck was to have all the upside of the 4 color BURG delver decks while remaining 3 colors. Magmatic Sinkhole does a good Abrupt Decay impression by removing opposing Tarmogoyfs and planeswalkers as well as Gurmag Angler but obviously misses some artifacts and enchantments like Chalice of the Void. RUG Delver is definitely the deck to beat and people are playing decks like Humans and Burn that take advantage of Nimble Mongoose being a little too small and a little too slow. So the plan was to ground and pound with Tarmogoyf and clear the path with Magmatic Sinkhole. All in all, the deck has been moderately effective. In probably 20 or so leagues, I only did worse than 3-2 once, but only a couple 5-0's and a handful of 4-1's. If you want to check out some amateurish recordings I made, you can see my youtube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMERTerbyh8-XOoYGa5Mtfg?view_as=subscriber.

I played in the Legacy Challenge on Sunday. It started off well enough getting paired against 4 color control and winning game 1. I beat 4 color control 3 times in the last league I recorded but unfortunately I could not get there in games 2 and 3. Plague Engineer is unfortunately on the rise and True-Name Nemesis is not as effective as it used to be. Plague Engineer and drawing an unfortunate amount of lands did me in. I won the next two rounds but then lost to UW Mentor. I had him dead on board in game 3 but unfortunately lost to an unexpected Daze into a whole bunch cantrips into a Swords to Plowshares on his own mentor token that put him in a position to win. Then I lost Round 6 to Pellenik who always plays funky next level brews. He was on an UBr control deck and I was unfortunately unable to efficiently answer his Baleful Strix's and Plague Engineer did more work against me. Playing for hopefully 32nd place or better in Round 7 I lost games 2 and 3 to Aluren wherein he resolved Carpet of Flowers in both games and there wasn't much I could do.

All in all, I think that my current build is "okay" for the league metagame. Everyone is gunning for RUG and while I think my build does some things to next level average league players, Challenge opponents are much better and I will need a much more dynamic approach to prevail there. I'm not quite sure what I want to do but Wrenn and Six is a silly card and a third should be probably be in the main deck. A major strength of this deck compared to 4 color control is those opponents typically start by fetching basics or develop their mana in such a way that they can't just slam Wrenn and Six on turn 2. Another thing is what while I thought Hexdrinker in this deck to be a silly suggestion, I think it could actually work. It seems like it is feast or famine with regard to the mana in this deck. In Delver mirrors, you are struggling just to keep a land on the battlefield but in other match ups you have tons of mana thanks to Wrenn and Six. Hexdrinker at least has an impact on the board in tight mana games and does something in the games where we have tons of mana. It also has more play against Plague Engineer than True-Name. So I'm not sure about all the numbers but I am going to try a build that starts with:

4 Delver
4 Hexdrinker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wrenn and Six

[Ralf]

Hexdrinker at least has an impact on the board in tight mana games and does something in the games where we have tons of mana. It also has more play against Plague Engineer than True-Name. So I'm not sure about all the numbers but I am going to try a build that starts with:

4 Delver
4 Hexdrinker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wrenn and Six

+1
I was suggesting that setup a month ago in this very thread.

Kitchen testing since then but I'm happy with it.

It requires a bit of practise tbh as Hexdrinker is not a Mongoose: every turn you'll have to assess if you spend 1 mana to pump him or play a cantrip/whatever.

Looking forward to reading your tests' feedbacks.

(3 Wrenn / 3 pierce is my setup)

SB used:

1 Clique
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Cindervines
1 Sylvan Library
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
1 Return to Nature
1 Rough // Tumble

Ralf

[BKclassic]

@Ralf - Generally speaking, I believe the way to play Hexdrinker is generally to level it up to Level 3 in one turn. Opponents will be trying to get us to sink our mana into Hexdrinker and then destroy it in response to the Level 3 activation. We can take advantage of this by playing Hexdrinker and just letting it sit. If we trade 1 for 1 with their removal, that's fine. It puts the opponent in a position where they basically can't afford to ever tap out because that gives us the window to get Hexdrinker to level 3 and then it's typically only a matter of time until we have a 6/6 Progenitus. Anyway, I'll test it out and make some recordings, hopefully sooner than later.

[BeTeP]

Maybe it is time to think in another direction too? I mean wotc just give us very interesting option - Elvish Reclaimer. It has some synergy with wren and hard to kill with bolt. Maybe it will be much more interesting than hexdrinker. But only hard testing will determine that.

[BKclassic]

Well I don't mean to spam this thread with references to Youtube page so I'll stop after this. But I did run a list with Hexdrinker through a league and record, just see the my link in my signature. I ran this list:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Hexdrinker
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Wrenn and Six

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Forked Bolt
2 Abrade
1 Null Rod
1 Cindervines
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Lonely Sandbar

While I did go 4-1 and ultimate Hexdrinker twice, I was not super excited about drawing the card, especially in multiples. It's just pretty clunky and Nimble Mongoose would have been better most of the time. With that said, I don't think sliding one or possibly even two Hexdrinker into a RUG delver list is an unreasonable decision and might even be good. My decision to try Hexdrinker was based on my desire to find a RUG build that ran 4 Tarmogoyf and 3 Wrenn and Six. Unfortunately, BURG tempo appears to be clearly the direction to go in for this configuration. The upside of Abrupt Decay and some black sideboard cards is very compelling. Dystopiaa's list from the last challange is basically perfect. The good news is that, unlike BURG Delver from the Deathrite Shaman days, the new build is much more green based and is much more like playing RUG Delver. Anyway, I'll leave further BURG discussion to the BURG thread. With regards to regular RUG Delver, I'm sure that the basic configuration (4 Goose, 2 Goyf, 2 TNN, 2 W6) is basically correct but I do think that Magmatic Sinkhole is the best 5th removal spell in despite the lack of synergy with Mongoose (a thresh'd Mongoose still can't attack through Goyf or Angler) and working in a Hexdrinker or two could be fine.

[KobeBryan]

how come no one is playing 8 bolt plan with arcanist?

[Fox]

@KobeBryan that deck can't run green and also be aggressive. Arcanist is also quite unplayable alongside Stifle b/c it demands tap out and jam play patterns.

[GoldenCid]

@KobeBryan that deck can't run green and also be aggressive. Arcanist is also quite unplayable alongside Stifle b/c it demands tap out and jam play patterns.

Maybe becasue Wrenn and six took everything

[KobeBryan]

That card is so overpowered

[lavafrogg]

I am going to rock the 3 Wren list hat won the 100+ person event in japan at my weekly on Wednesday. Deck seems very well positioned with ancient grudge out of the board.

[NidStyles]

Looks like Maverick will make a comeback with Tempo decks trying to force their way into the Meta again.

[lavafrogg]

Wren is good against Maverick!

The meta is in crazy flux right now, who knows what is gonna happen.

[BKclassic]

Wren is good against Maverick!

The meta is in crazy flux right now, who knows what is gonna happen.

I would have to concur that this deck crushes Maverick right now. Wrenn and Six and True-Name are wildly good against them.

[KobeBryan]

Wren is good against Maverick!

The meta is in crazy flux right now, who knows what is gonna happen.

Wrenn is so OP vs. slow greedy mana bases.

[Qweerios]

Does anybody have experience with W6 as a mainboard card? How often do you side it out? How good is it in general?

I really like the card in the 75 but I always imagined it as a SB card for Control and specific aggro decks (Delver and DnT). In many matchups the ping ability is simply irrelevant so W6 becomes a Loam. Loam without a Waste is quite underwhelming also. I feel like drawing multiples in those matchups would be devastating.

The main point I want to make is that I can easily see how a singleton W6 makes sense (PW typing for Goyf, random hoser against x/1, WasteLoam potential, Ultimate threat against UW) but wouldn't a card like Sylvan Library make more sense as a complementary grinder than a second copy of W6 that seemingly offers diminishing returns?

[Ralf]

Does anybody have experience with W6 as a mainboard card? How often do you side it out? How good is it in general?


Did you jam a few games with 2+ W6 in your 60 ?

3 seems to be the actual trend.

Don't see W6 as only a recurring "wasteland" tool but rather as a not so bad CA machine:

1) It stabilizes your manabase (recurring fetchs/lands/waste)
2) You are not forced to play the land. You can also keep it for a later BS and make CA
3) It does handle a few creatures
4) Its ulty is "badass". Real. Period.

Usually you end up with more mana on the battlefield -> you can cast bigger CMC spells (TNN, even FOW etc...)

I board it out usually vs Combo. It stays in vs Tempo / Midrange / Control.

[BKclassic]

Does anybody have experience with W6 as a mainboard card? How often do you side it out? How good is it in general?

I really like the card in the 75 but I always imagined it as a SB card for Control and specific aggro decks (Delver and DnT). In many matchups the ping ability is simply irrelevant so W6 becomes a Loam. Loam without a Waste is quite underwhelming also. I feel like drawing multiples in those matchups would be devastating.

The main point I want to make is that I can easily see how a singleton W6 makes sense (PW typing for Goyf, random hoser against x/1, WasteLoam potential, Ultimate threat against UW) but wouldn't a card like Sylvan Library make more sense as a complementary grinder than a second copy of W6 that seemingly offers diminishing returns?

The card is amazing. Even if the recurring Wastelands or the -1 ability aren't very relevant, the +1 ability at least combos with Brainstorm and you can always dome your opponent with the -1. I think that Baku_91's maindeck from the last challenge is pretty much the baseline for how RUG should look right now (List (https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31112&iddeck=265892)) which features the Fiery Islet for additional synergy with Wrenn and Six. There are obviously match ups where it isn't very efficacious but overall power level of the card is overwhelming. It's pretty hard to imagine running less than 2. Sylvan Library obviously has it's uses but it typically does not impact the board like Wrenn and Six.

[H]

The card is amazing. Even if the recurring Wastelands or the -1 ability aren't very relevant, the +1 ability at least combos with Brainstorm and you can always dome your opponent with the -1. I think that Baku_91's maindeck from the last challenge is pretty much the baseline for how RUG should look right now (List (https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31112&iddeck=265892)) which features the Fiery Islet for additional synergy with Wrenn and Six. There are obviously match ups where it isn't very efficacious but overall power level of the card is overwhelming. It's pretty hard to imagine running less than 2. Sylvan Library obviously has it's uses but it typically does not impact the board like Wrenn and Six.

Yeah, I agree here with this overall. I think the only matchup I really feel would suffer might be Miracles, given the lack of Mongoose and that Wasteland recursion is likely not ideal. However, Wrenn just ticking up is a sort of "pressure" in itself, so there is that.

Honestly, I think Delver itself might well be the worst Creature in the deck right now.

[Qweerios]

Did you jam a few games with 2+ W6 in your 60 ?

3 seems to be the actual trend.

Don't see W6 as only a recurring "wasteland" tool but rather as a not so bad CA machine:

1) It stabilizes your manabase (recurring fetchs/lands/waste)
2) You are not forced to play the land. You can also keep it for a later BS and make CA
3) It does handle a few creatures
4) Its ulty is "badass". Real. Period.

Usually you end up with more mana on the battlefield -> you can cast bigger CMC spells (TNN, even FOW etc...)

I board it out usually vs Combo. It stays in vs Tempo / Midrange / Control.

I didn't buy them yet unfortunately and at the price they are at I am not sure how many I want. Right now I am thinking 1 main and 1 side but I might try to squeeze 2 in the main and free up some SB space. I mostly play 4c Delver so I'm psyched to get a working Mongoose setup with a postboard W6 + Blossom plan against control decks. This is my understanding so far about W6:

1) It's really good against control... Mostly Miracles and Grixis/4c Strix decks because the +1 buffers brainstorm and leads to a game winning ultimate and the -1 clears Strix, Snap, and Clique making way for Mongoose.

2) It's really bad against the classic combo decks like SnT, Storm and Reanimator but very strong against Elves, Infect, and can have it's moments against Depths because the ping ability and recurring Wastelands are a thing here.

3) It's great against some aggro decks like DnT and Maverick because the ping ability kills a lot of creatures and the +1 stabilizes your manabase but not so good against Aggro decks that feature 2+ toughness creatures like Eldrazi.

You say you keep W6 against tempo decks, does that include all flavors of Delver like RUG, BUG, and Grixis? Even on the draw? It seems to me like W6 has almost no targets to ping and that without a Wasteland it isn't a win condition. I would rather have something like a single Loam for those matchups and I would probably end up boarding W6 out all the time.

With all of that said I can look at TNN and safely assume that it is great against all Control decks, all Aggro decks, and pitches to FoW against combo. If I were to play a 2/2 TNN/W6 split or something mainboard, wouldn't it be strictly better to favor more TNN over additional W6?

[Ralf]

You say you keep W6 against tempo decks, does that include all flavors of Delver like RUG, BUG, and Grixis? Even on the draw? It seems to me like W6 has almost no targets to ping and that without a Wasteland it isn't a win condition. I would rather have something like a single Loam for those matchups and I would probably end up boarding W6 out all the time.

With all of that said I can look at TNN and safely assume that it is great against all Control decks, all Aggro decks, and pitches to FoW against combo. If I were to play a 2/2 TNN/W6 split or something mainboard, wouldn't it be strictly better to favor more TNN over additional W6?

That was a rough idea for sideboarding plan.

You cannot really compare W6 to TNN.

TNN CMC is higher than W6. Sure it's on color (for FOW) but still 1 mana is huge (especially in RUG) and we are still over 22+ blue cards. Don't forget that pitching is a thing but with W6, you will end up CASTING your FOW (less CDA).
W6 does help casting TNN though.

TNN is "expected". Your opp will have a shit ton of removal for creatures (especially postboard).
W6 gives you another attack angle. PW are not always easy to answer for certain decks. And post board, it hinders your oppo (Should he pack anti PW as well, dilute his deck even further and force him to side in bad cards vs Tempo in general ?).

W6 grows Tarmo. It isn't always obvious but it was relevant here and there.

12 threats was a standard in RUG. W6 "adds" 2/3 more somehow.

It might just be a trend or not.

Test it out when you want/can.

Ralf

PS: TNN hype is high still I'm not sure we should play him (not to mention that I dislike this card).

[kombatkiwi]

Played in a 7-round event in China this weekend (repost from discord)
4 Delver
4 Goose
2 Goyf
2 TNN

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Bolt
2 Snare
2 Pierce
2 Wrenn

8 Fetchlands
3 Tropical
3 Volcanic
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Force of Negation
2 Surgical
2 Cindervines
2 Red Blast
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Cage
1 Abrade
1 Grudge
1 Orb
1 Submerge

R1 RUG Mirror LWL
R2 Miracles WW
R3 Merfolk LWW
R4 Eldrazi LWD
R5 Maverick WW
R6 Miracles WW
R7 UR Delver LWL

Placed 23rd / ~100

Notes:
- 4th Stifle should probably be Chain Lightning
- Cindervines performed really well as usual (The Pillar effect is gamebreaking vs Miracles. My round 6 opponent cast Back to Basics into my Cindervines, and rather than use Cindervines to kill it I used the Red Blast from my hand instead, because the damage pressure is so important. Of course if I didn't have the Red Blast in hand then Cindervines killing the B2B is the perfect option to have anyway. Against Eldrazi it killed Chalice/Ballista while making Tarmogoyf big)
- I like the 2 TNN 2 Goyf main and 2 in the board
- I like all the 2-ofs in the sideboard and probably Cage. The other 4 are more flexible or a meta call. Hydroblast is a possible consideration. Veil of Summer is also one of these options that seems like a strong card but is very narrow in application, so it's difficult to find a place for it, but I am thinking about how to fit it in the deck

[H]

Notes:
- 4th Stifle should probably be Chain Lightning
- Cindervines performed really well as usual (The Pillar effect is gamebreaking vs Miracles. My round 6 opponent cast Back to Basics into my Cindervines, and rather than use Cindervines to kill it I used the Red Blast from my hand instead, because the damage pressure is so important. Of course if I didn't have the Red Blast in hand then Cindervines killing the B2B is the perfect option to have anyway. Against Eldrazi it killed Chalice/Ballista while making Tarmogoyf big)
- I like the 2 TNN 2 Goyf main and 2 in the board
- I like all the 2-ofs in the sideboard and probably Cage. The other 4 are more flexible or a meta call. Hydroblast is a possible consideration. Veil of Summer is also one of these options that seems like a strong card but is very narrow in application, so it's difficult to find a place for it, but I am thinking about how to fit it in the deck

Yeah, I played RUG in out last FNM and went 3-0-1.

I went for 3 'Goyf and 2 Mandrils instead of Mongoose. It was basically Baku_91's list from the recent Legacy Challenge (https://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=31112&iddeck=265892). I just adjusted the sideboard some.

Obviously, small sample size, but indeed, I didn't miss the 4th Stifle. I beat a UB Delver/Ninjitsu deck, Infect, and Dragon Stompy, then taking an intentional draw, since I was rather tired and my opponent wanted to eat their food.

I think Cindervines is an absolute house of a sideboard card. I definitely would not have won vs Dragon Stompy without it. I think that, depending on your meta, Veil for Winter Orb is a possible swap, but it really depends on how many big mana decks you see.

[eldub]

Has anyone been playing with Dreadhorde Arcanist & Wrenn in RUG colors? I have been playing UR Delver in prep for GP ATL for about a month now to some solid success (fetching basic island T1 can be a real blessing).. Zombie Wizard has won me a ton of games I had no business being in.

I got my hands on a few copies of Wrenn & Six and was trying to figure out the best way to convert the solid UR delver cantrip-heavy tapout shell to RUG to support Wrenn and Goyf over Young Peezy. Here's where I landed:

Land (18)
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Creature (12)
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Dreadhorde Arcanist
3x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis

Planeswalker (2)
2x Wrenn and Six

Instant (19)
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
2x Force of Negation
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt

Sorcery (9)
2x Chain Lightning
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

Sideboard (15)
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Cindervines
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Ashiok, Dream Render
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Flusterstorm
1x Hydroblast
3x Pyroblast
1x Winter Orb
1x Submerge

MD Blue count: 28 in order to support 6x Forces

With both Wrenn and Arcanist I find it's a lot more likely to naturally make your third land drop without having to spend a cantrip to find it which makes both TNN and hard cast Force of Negation online a turn earlier.

The deck only plays 5 Green cards main (2 Wrenn 3 Goyf), I typically lead on Volcanic >Delver/Preordain/Ponder. The goal is to use all of your mana every turn and just accrue more resources than your opponent while leaning on 10 mana-free counterspells and a fast clock. If you get to slam Arcanist or Wrenn t2 with multiple pieces of free interaction, it feels hard to lose.

I've been playing every flavor of Delver decks for ~7 years but this is the first time we actually have true card advantage. With both Arcanist and Wrenn netting you free cards, you can often find yourself in the mid-game against other fair decks with 2+ more cards in hand than your opponent before you ever cast a Brainstorm. This is certainly a luxury I've never had in Delver shells and it makes Brainstorm and Ponder feel even more busted.

This shell is similar in layout to the 4c Delver list Mengucci and others have been playing successfully, but can run on 2 less lands (I think) without the splash and does a better job of abusing Dreadhorde Arcanist. They're using Decay as their 'catch-all' where I'm leaning on more Forces. The real loss from Black to me is Plague Engineer which is an insane card in many matchups. Thoughtseize was kinda meh for me in that shell as fetching black early can be a real liability. Edict has lost a bit of turf in my opinion as the Depths decks are now running so many small creatures.

Fun fact -- Retracing Submerge multiple times from W6 emblem in response to a fetchland is the most fun interaction I've had so far. The emblem is real. Fun times with Surgical as well.

[eldub]

Noticed Liz Lynn playing what looked to be a very similar last at the Team Open last week upon review of the Twitch stream, but I guess no one else is actively down this path.

[Jesture]

Noticed Liz Lynn playing what looked to be a very similar last at the Team Open last week upon review of the Twitch stream, but I guess no one else is actively down this path.

Think it's worth noting that she seemed to be on a Hierarch version of the deck. I don't know how it compares to a more traditional threat suite, but it does seem like a good way to decrease reliance on the graveyard if you're playing Arcanist. The tradeoff is then losing some number of Mongoose/Goyf, but it definitely feels like you'd want some number of mana dorks if you're still looking to run 5 two drops.

Of note, I think UR Delver is going to be the better Arcanist deck due to the extra cantrips (4x Preordains) and being better situated to use Bolts proactively. Compared to RUG, you're losing access to green creatures and W6 but none of those are cards that make Arcanist better (could even argue some of those make Arcanist worse.)

[eldub]

My main issue with UR has nothing to do with Arcanist really, he is a house. I'm struggling with YP being lackluster in the face of W&6 being everywhere and the deck feeling too threat-light without it. The version above is playing the same suite of 1-mana cantrips and bolts, just a different 2-drop threat suite and the Trops to support it. Maybe it's just worse than UR, that's what I'm trying to work through.

I do love Noble Hierarch in general, but this is not the time for it imo.

[frenchy-man]

Hi guys,

I have the feeling that Canadian became again top tiers (even maybe the best deck currently).
W&6 really pushed back the deck to the place it deserves, and even cards like cindervine improved the deck.

My point is about nimble mongoose. It is the weakest card in the list. Am I the only one to have this feeling ?
Why are we still playing this card ?

The whole point of goose back in the days was to get a turn 1 pressure and try to get all the way with it. It was a significantly big creatures also (it was played before tarmo was printed).
But I believe power level is more important to put pressure than shroud. We all believe this : who will tell that goose is better than delver ?

Based on this, I started my tests with Hexdrinker instead of mongoose. The two alternatives to goose seem to be pteramander or Hexdrinker. I chose Hexdrinker as it put more pressure early, does not rely or deteriorate grave, optimize Mana utilization, and basically prevent the opponent to tap out.

Waiting your thoughts guys.

Regards

[Baku_91]

Hi there, this is Baku_91

Some comments,

-Hexdrinker is unplayable. W6 kills it and you need to invest too much mana in a deck that does not have it.
-Mongoose is outclassed by too many creatures these days + it's a nonbo with W6
-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

[BKclassic]

Hi there, this is Baku_91
-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

I feel like your last Challange list should have a pretty reasonable elves match-up. A bunch of removal, Wren and Six, and Hooting Mandrills are all pretty good against them. You could probably adjust some slots into Forked Bolt and Submerge if you don't want to go the Rough/Tumble or Blazing Volley route. I've had some success with Gilded Drake against Depths. Obviously sideboard slots are a premium given the diversity of the metagame and RUG has relative narrow sideboard options compared to 4 Color Delver.

[Baku_91]

Actually I think matchup vs elves should be decent also yes, but not favorable. You need your spell pierces/ spell snares to match their spells (don't run enough cards in the sb to sb them out), otherwise you end up with dead cards vs an horde of 1/1's :( W6 helps a lot though, even if they kill it usually ends up being a 2 or 3x1 .

Gilded Drake, interesting...but isn't Karakas just better ? Repeatable efect that cannot be discarded...

[frenchy-man]

Hi there, this is Baku_91

Some comments,

-Hexdrinker is unplayable. W6 kills it and you need to invest too much mana in a deck that does not have it.
-Mongoose is outclassed by too many creatures these days + it's a nonbo with W6
-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

Hi Baku.

I dont really agree with the w6 argument, because then delver also dies to W6. Besides not all the decks play W6.
The mana argument is a relevant point. I guess rushing the level UP is not the good way to play the card. I will come back After more tests with it.

Agreed for goose. Any ideas to replace it ?

I also lost to elves. I decided, according to my local metagame (elves, dnt, maverick, pyromancer deck) to md 2 forked bolt. In sb cindervines helps a lot against choke.

[Baku_91]

Hi frenchy,

The difference with delver against w6 is that you play it otp t1 and have at least 1 chance to flip it. With hexdrinker, you usually allow 3 turns (unless you go all in, then you allow 2, but then you are timewalking yourself). Actually , I agree delver is also bad vs W6 , but not as bad as hexdrinker. Plus, we all know the absurd amount of games in other pairings that delver wins on its own, I do not think same can be said for Hexdrinker , too mana intensive as mentioned . If you are upping it, you are not playing cantrips / removals / counters , if you are not, then well, you have a 2/1 which does not even pitch to fow :(

Basically it goes against the principle of this deck, mana efficient creatures and then forget about them and counter/kill anything relevant that stops them. Hexdrinker is a good mana sink, but as mana sink, it is not efficient in mana terms. Hope I explained myself correctly !

Edit: about replacing gooses, I currently play 4 delver 4 goyf 2 tnn 1 hooting mandrils, working fine to me . I really think 12 creatures are too much in most pairings, so I always play 11 + one or two in the sb + sylvan library in the sb (currently a sulfur elemental in the sb, it goes in against UW decks and W taxes of course) .

[Rood]

Is there any reason most lists dont play with 4 W6. I feel like it's just so insane right now I couldn't imagine not wanting 4 in a deck like this.

[Qweerios]

Is there any reason most lists dont play with 4 W6. I feel like it's just so insane right now I couldn't imagine not wanting 4 in a deck like this.

I've played RUG and 4c Delver with up to 3 copies and I feel the opposite. I think as time goes on and the meta adapts to W6 we will see less copies in Delver decks (probably around 1-2 copies). I just don't find it very agressive for a Delver decks and it fits much better in 4c Control IMO. Yes recurring Wastes wins some games but aside from that the card is clunky in multiples and has huge diminishing returns past the first land it returns (for Delver).

I agree with you that the card is hot right now and in some metas you might want to load up on then.

[BeTeP]

Hi there, this is Baku_91

-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

Vs elves the best thing what you can do is to run sb izzet staticaster. It is very versatile and strong because can kill multiple creatures. At best it can kill all board, and if they have decay for him it is acceptable and almost always 2 for 1 or even more. Electrikery, forked bolt and other sweepers is now that good, cause elves recovers very quick and only staticaster says - found decay in time or die. Staticaster also shines in dnt match for same reasons. I dont understand why people not running it actually.
Also in this match grafdiggers cage is thing that protects vs NO and zenith.

As for depth, if you need versatile card it is submerge (it is very strong now, like old days. Maverick, mirror, 4c delver, elves). If you need specific answers for this mathup only then you can run dominate or pithing needle (which is versatile). And i agree that Gilded Drake is a thing too.

[Audemus]

Any reasons to diversify fetchlands besides Pithing Needle effects?

Yes, I guess being needled out of your fetches is tough, but I think the best configuration is 4x Wooded Foothills paired with 4x Flooded Strand. Both fetches can find all the fetchables, so there is no problem there. I think it provides a strategic advantage. Being able to bluff being on a non-stifle deck turn 1 can trick an opponent into over-extending into a stifle.

Say your on the play game one. Your hand is two Flooded Strands, a Goyf, a Stifle, and some counterspells. It’s a keepable hand, if a little slow. If you lead with Flooded Strand go, the opponent will probably put you on miracles/stoneblade. They will not expect a stifle. The same goes for foothills. The fact that foothills isn’t even a blue fetch removes any thought of turn one stifle.

Non-Stifle Decks that a turn 1 Flooded Strand or Wooded Foothills could be:
— Miracles
— Stoneblade
— Lands
— Jund
— Sneak and Show
— Punishing Maverick
— High Tide

Generally, from a Delver deck, people are going to expect a turn one play. Most of the time you will have it. But, the possible equity from tricking someone into a stifled fetch out weighs the possible equity of dodging a needles fetch. Also, this situation seems to come up more often.

So, I pose the question: Why diversify when you can hedge a possible cheeky play?

P.S. — I like the look of old bordered cards, and I can play all Onslaught fetches. :)

[kombatkiwi]

Any reasons to diversify fetchlands besides Pithing Needle effects?

In my opinion this outweighs the likelihood of your opponent stumbling into a stifle by reading your fetchland wrongly.
If your opponent sees Wooded Foothills they are probably more likely to assume RUG than any other deck anyway, there aren't many people playing jund/zoo/goblins

[Audemus]

In my opinion this outweighs the likelihood of your opponent stumbling into a stifle by reading your fetchland wrongly.
If your opponent sees Wooded Foothills they are probably more likely to assume RUG than any other deck anyway, there aren't many people playing jund/zoo/goblins

Fair point.

[Qweerios]

Polluted Delta is the most ambiguous blue fetch IMO. It gives you a better chance of bluffing a Stifle than a Wooded Foothills.

I always choose my fetches according to the bluff factor rather than playing around Pithing Needle. I've been Needled on fetches maybe 3 times in my life and it only mattered once or twice. However I have played countless games where I lost on turn 0-1 (Reanimate Grissel, SnT Emrakul, realize your up against manaless Dredge) and purposely kept playing in an attempt to misguide my opponent on my deck choice by making plays that lets my opponent think i'm on a different deck for G2. Fetching Volcanics and cantripping and never play any creatures or removal can lead to an opponent thinking you're on Sneak and Show for example. Sometimes I have a basic Island so I bring it out and let my opponent guess before they kill me or I scoop. That way you can go into G2 with an advantage.

[meite]

Has anyone been playing with Dreadhorde Arcanist & Wrenn in RUG colors? I have been playing UR Delver in prep for GP ATL for about a month now to some solid success (fetching basic island T1 can be a real blessing).. Zombie Wizard has won me a ton of games I had no business being in.

I got my hands on a few copies of Wrenn & Six and was trying to figure out the best way to convert the solid UR delver cantrip-heavy tapout shell to RUG to support Wrenn and Goyf over Young Peezy. Here's where I landed:


Jarvis Yu streamed with similar kind of list, looked really smooth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_cLxD8VoDQ

He called it "no bad cards" RUG. :)

Stifle feels so situational card to me, so definitely gonna try out this list too.

[eldub]

Thanks for the heads up @meite -- this was a good watch. Played out pretty similarly to how I've been doing locally. If only I was as good as Jarvis.. ;)

I think that video showcases how well the deck lines up against other fair strategies in general .. tons of raw card advantage and able to turn the corner relatively quickly or grind it out as appropriate. I still prefer playing more Preordain (3 or 4), since the deck really needs GY fuel to function and is lacking in proactive T1 plays with Delver as the only 1cmc threat.

Both Pierce and Snare have under-performed since you really do want to tap out in the early game, especially when you know you're not playing against a deck that can kill you before turn 2. Watching Jarvis' VOD, there are definitely several spots in games where he was lacking in fuel for Arcanist by not quite having enough 1cmc action (preordain/chain lightning).

This deck is quite weak to GY hate, with RIP/Leyline totally shutting off all your non-Delver/TNN threats. Having 6 total Force effects in the 75 (5+1) is a nice way to ensure you don't get punked out of games by Chalice/RiP/Leyline. If you get to enact your game plan, it's pretty hard for other decks to keep up so be mindful with your Forces.

It's an interesting toss up between Arcanist #4 and Wrenn #3 as the final 2-drop threat. They both serve similar functions (raw CA) and act as supplementary removal. I've been very happy with 3 Goyfs and 2 TNN.

If you play 6 or more Green cards main, you definitely want 3 Volcs and 3 Trops; if you're on 5 or less, the third Tropical Island is pretty bad. Drawing 2xTrop and not being able to play any bolts or red threats is a more likely scenario than being Wasted/Ported off a Green source with Wrenn in your deck in my experience. I see a ton of people playing 19 land in these Arcanist shells (including Jarvis w/ a Lonely Sandbar), but it seems unnecessary to me. You have so much card selection via cantrips and W6 to make land drops that you're definitely more prone to Flood than anything. In my configuration below, you fetch Volcanic first >95% of the time.

Here's where I am at currently, putting in as many reps as I can in prep for ATL:

Land (18)
2x Flooded Strand
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Tropical Island
4x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

Sorcery (10)
2x Chain Lightning
4x Ponder
4x Preordain

Instant (17)
4x Brainstorm
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Daze
1x Force of Negation
4x Force of Will

Creature (13)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Dreadhorde Arcanist
3x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis

Planeswalker (2)
2x Wrenn and Six

Sideboard (15)
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Hydroblast
1x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Cindervines
2x Gilded Drake
1x Ashiok, Dream Render
1x Force of Negation
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Rough / Tumble

The SB is slanted heavily towards permanent-based removal or disruption as this deck still wants to play mostly tap-out, even against combo decks. Honestly with the amount of heavy discard (depths/storm) and Veil of Summer being around in the spell-based combo decks, I'm not playing Flusterstorm for the first time in as long as I can remember. Narset is currently filling in for Winter Orb which I had very marginal experiences with. I had Spell Pierce/Snare hanging around between MB and SB for a while but they just didn't jive with the deck's play patterns.

[eldub]

Three of the top25 decks at the SCG Team Open this weekend were variations on a stifle-less, Dreadhorde Arcanist RUG Delver shell.

Noah Walker (5th): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2190903#paper
Hunter Nance (7th): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2190910#paper
Chad Harney (25th): https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2190963#paper

Everyone played the same threats, although with some variation as to how many of of each (4x Delver, 3x W6, 2-4x Arcanist, 1-4x Goyf, 2-3x TNN).

19 land with a Fiery Islet was the manabase of choice, with Hunter only playing 2x Trop and a basic island supporting 4 maindeck green cards.

Cool to see folks experimenting; hopefully some discussion can pick up on this archetype now that lists are being published from good results.

[JackaBo]

Obviously i regard the opinion of Noah et al higher than mine but doesnt arcanist work better with black for discard?

[eldub]

Thoughtseize definitely pulls it's weight in the combo matchups, but fetching Badlands or USea early can be very awkward depending on your opening 7. In the post-board games when you know your opponent is not playing Wasteland, Trop+Badlands can cast everything, but not having UU can be a problem, especially if you're playing Pierce/Snare/Fluster.

I think Plague Engineer is the biggest pull into Black personally. Now that we have access to 6x Force effects I don't find myself missing discard as much.

[Ralf]

Hi there, this is Baku_91

Some comments,

-Hexdrinker is unplayable. W6 kills it and you need to invest too much mana in a deck that does not have it.
-Mongoose is outclassed by too many creatures these days + it's a nonbo with W6
-I'm struggling vs elves and depths, what is the best antielves card (no splash for plague engineer) ??? Any suggestion? I'm trying ee as a versatile card but not sure if it is good enough. Vs depths, I 'm trying a couple karakas.

******
I'm still impressed by my setup (3 Wrenn /3 pierce /4 Hexdrinker / 50 classic). But I have the same feeling as Qweerios. The W6 count in the deck will decrease in a midterm perspective:
The card is strong but Delver flips less,
it is not pitchable to FOW,
you don't always want to see multiples.

However, the more I thin the deck the happier I am (not to say that any late drawn Hexdrinker is a must answer otherwise you crush your opponent)

Btw, Hexdrinker is a monster (after easy 50+ games with it since I mentioned it) I won so many games just on the back of it.

Seems like it is starting to show results (600+ players):

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22880&d=356469


******
Against Elves:
- Electrickery
- Staticaster
- Rough // Tumble
- Forked bolt
- Grafdigger's cage
- Pithing Needle
- Lavamancer

******
Against Depths ? -> what version of Depths ?

Ralf

[JackaBo]

That list with hexdrinker doesn’t run stifle which makes sense since hexdrinker wants you to tap in sorcery speed.
It should be good with W6 since it gives you something to do with the excess lands you might end up with.

[JackaBo]

I have a question for you all. As some players have started tinkering with crop rotation in the 75 and cards to go with it in the sideboard, outside of the ususl draw land and wastelands... wouldnt elvish reclaimer be a good addition?

3 lands in graveyard is not very hard and you got yourself a 1 mana minigoyf. Not having to tap two lands in delver is a big deal, right? And the deck could use more 1 cmc threats.

She can also tutor for draw-land or wasteland with or without active wren. Post board she can tutor up karakas, perhabs bog... perhabs even nacle. I’m thinking something like a two-off? Thoughts?

[Nestalim]

I have a question for you all. As some players have started tinkering with crop rotation in the 75 and cards to go with it in the sideboard, outside of the ususl draw land and wastelands... wouldnt elvish reclaimer be a good addition?

3 lands in graveyard is not very hard and you got yourself a 1 mana minigoyf. Not having to tap two lands in delver is a big deal, right? And the deck could use more 1 cmc threats.

She can also tutor for draw-land or wasteland with or without active wren. Post board she can tutor up karakas, perhabs bog... perhabs even nacle. I’m thinking something like a two-off? Thoughts?

I don't think the deck needs more threats. The combination of Arcanist/Delver/TNN/Tarmo is enough and adding more creature will make Delver less threatening.

[JackaBo]

I don't think the deck needs more threats. The combination of Arcanist/Delver/TNN/Tarmo is enough and adding more creature will make Delver less threatening.

I meant by cutting other threats. IE goyfs

To expand. The deck have a pretty bad curve. Your threats is 4 1 cmc, 9 2 cmc and 2 3 cmc.

If you add sorcery speed cantrips you have 10 plays T1. That compared to 8 threats and 4 ponder from the old grixis D.

Playing nothing on T1 is pretty bad in this deck tbh. You only have 2 one-mana-counters and 4 instant speed removal (6) compared to the old canadian with 4 one-mana-counters, stifles and bolts (12) and the tap-out grixis D (6 or 7 if you ran wild slash).

So cutting two 2-drops for more 1-drop threats seem reasonable. It’s pretty discouraging to waste the trop if your opponent went T1 Elf of a fetch. That’s two lands in the grave.

I’m gonna try 2 Elves :D

[Nestalim]

I meant by cutting other threats. IE goyfs

To expand. The deck have a pretty bad curve. Your threats is 4 1 cmc, 9 2 cmc and 2 3 cmc.

If you add sorcery speed cantrips you have 10 plays T1. That compared to 8 threats and 4 ponder from the old grixis D.

Playing nothing on T1 is pretty bad in this deck tbh. You only have 2 one-mana-counters and 4 instant speed removal (6) compared to the old canadian with 4 one-mana-counters, stifles and bolts (12) and the tap-out grixis D (6 or 7 if you ran wild slash).

So cutting two 2-drops for more 1-drop threats seem reasonable. It’s pretty discouraging to waste the trop if your opponent went T1 Elf of a fetch. That’s two lands in the grave.

I’m gonna try 2 Elves :D

This seems fine. I will try it too !

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Isnt goyf better to have for the midrange and stompy matchups? Angler and reality smasher will rejoice, I think.

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[JackaBo]

Isnt goyf better to have for the midrange and stompy matchups? Angler and reality smasher will rejoice, I think.

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That is probably true.

[malfie13]

Hi all, if any of you know me, I usually play either UW blade or MUD. I'm not a happy delver player during the grixis era, and promised that the only delver I'd ever play is RUG Threshold. If it ever got good again. Lol. And here we are. I'm interested in confering on deck choices ahead of ew. First I'll post my current build, then I'll post my questions. Happy to discuss and defend mybdeck choices as they are.

Deck: Legacy Temur Delver w 6 9-8-19.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:11
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dreadhorde Arcanist
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

Sorceries:7
1 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

Instants:20
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Daze
1 Force of Negation
1 Dead // Gone
4 Force of Will

Enchantments:1
1 Sylvan Library

Others:3
3 Wrenn and Six

Lands:18
1 Fiery Islet
2 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damping Sphere
1 Blazing Volley
1 Shattering Spree
1 Shenanigans
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vapor Snag
1 Veil of Summer
1 Echoing Truth

First question: what's the consensus on arcanist vs a stifle package? I love some stifle and miss it horribly playing arcanist. Who likes which?

[malfie13]

The sb is in no way locked in. I do feel like it needs a second sphere and a second surgical. Need to figure out what to cut for each.

[Luca Grease]

The consensus is pretty much not to play stifle anymore. It doesn't fit with the new cards and style of the deck (which is much more powerful than before). Stifle might get you some free wins occasionally, but it's not worth it in the grand scheme of things. It's too often a semi dead card, and even where it's good, the deck doesn't have to extend the early game that much now that it has much more raw power to go toe to toe with midrange and control in the late game.

A few more observations from testing:
- I didn't like arcanist initially and refused to test it for the longest time, but it's a house. Just make sure you're playing the fifth bolt along it to clear out those tarmogoyfs.

- although it was initially hastily dismissed because of its anti tempo, w6 vulnerable nature, hexdrinker might actually have some merit, as both tournament results and personal testing show. I wouldn't play more than 1 copy though since you don't usually want multiples. Currently slotting it in place of the fourth tarmo

With w6 filling our hand with extra lands in the grinder matchups and our slightly higher mana curve, it seems
Jtms is replacing winter orb as the new anti-control bomb of choice. Can't go wrong with that one, I guess...

- the crop package revolutionizes many matchups, giving us outs in situations where we would previously auto scoop. Depths, show and tell, lands and reanimator players will get blown out a few times before they start playing more carefully and conservatively (which is good for us no matter how you slice it)

EDIT: looking at the playoff results, the real issue seems to be a looming Wrenn and Six ban... Variety in large tournament results has always been the main criteria for bans, and Rug seems to be taking over legacy, plus the card is also present in other lists like 4c control, lands, and aggro loam. 5/8 top 8 decks are playing it, and I don't see the trend reversing anytime soon

[KobeBryan]

The consensus is pretty much not to play stifle anymore. It doesn't fit with the new cards and style of the deck (which is much more powerful than before). Stifle might get you some free wins occasionally, but it's not worth it in the grand scheme of things. It's too often a semi dead card, and even where it's good, the deck doesn't have to extend the early game that much now that it has much more raw power to go toe to toe with midrange and control in the late game.

A few more observations from testing:
- I didn't like arcanist initially and refused to test it for the longest time, but it's a house. Just make sure you're playing the fifth bolt along it to clear out those tarmogoyfs.

- although it was initially hastily dismissed because of its anti tempo, w6 vulnerable nature, hexdrinker might actually have some merit, as both tournament results and personal testing show. I wouldn't play more than 1 copy though since you don't usually want multiples. Currently slotting it in place of the fourth tarmo

With w6 filling our hand with extra lands in the grinder matchups and our slightly higher mana curve, it seems
Jtms is replacing winter orb as the new anti-control bomb of choice. Can't go wrong with that one, I guess...

- the crop package revolutionizes many matchups, giving us outs in situations where we would previously auto scoop. Depths, show and tell, lands and reanimator players will get blown out a few times before they start playing more carefully and conservatively (which is good for us no matter how you slice it)

EDIT: looking at the playoff results, the real issue seems to be a looming Wrenn and Six ban... Variety in large tournament results has always been the main criteria for bans, and Rug seems to be taking over legacy, plus the card is also present in other lists like 4c control, lands, and aggro loam. 5/8 top 8 decks are playing it, and I don't see the trend reversing anytime soon


Stifle has been dead for me. And w6 needs the fastest ban for this deck.

In the mirror, its whoever drops w6 in first and protects it

[Malfeischylde]

The crop package revolutionizes many matchups, giving us outs in situations where we would previously auto scoop. Depths, show and tell, lands and reanimator players will get blown out a few times before they start playing more carefully and conservatively (which is good for us no matter how you slice it)


Crop rot, really? That IS pretty spicey. My backup deck is always gx lands. This somehow super appeals to me as a thought. Is it being run mb or sb?



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[Luca Grease]

Mostly as a 1 or 2 of in the side, along with karakas and sometimes bojuka big. Some have tried it main though, not sure that makes sense, since the silver bullet lands are still in the side

[kombatkiwi]

Mostly as a 1 or 2 of in the side, along with karakas and sometimes bojuka big. Some have tried it main though, not sure that makes sense, since the silver bullet lands are still in the side

Usually these are decks with 3 Wrenn and Fiery Islet so there is at least one spicy land maindeck, and just as a way to access wasteland it's not totally awful

[wcm8]

If you were going to run a singleton of one of the following in the main 60, which would you rather choose:
Sylvan Library
Narset, Parter of Veils

Library only costing 2 is a very relevant difference, however given the deck’s relative mana stability granted by W&6 ramping to 3 mana isn’t all that difficult. Narset is great in that she provides a form of draw disruption against plenty of the format, and at worst she’ll provide 1 or 2 impulses. Is blue, pitches to Force.

Library is really great in a Miracles-heavy metagame, however nowadays that deck sees less play. However, it is somewhat hard to lose a game where you resolve an early Library, as it fixes your draw steps every turn and can be used to get ahead on cards if you aren’t up against a particularly aggressive deck. It’s such a powerful effect that any Green deck needs to justify a reason to not be running 1-2 somewhere in the 75.

In both cases, either getting countered/destroyed will grow Tarmogoyf so that’s a somewhat relevant bonus.

Another question: what do you prefer to run as your 5th removal spell?
Chain Lightning is the closest to Bolt #5.
Magmatic Sinkhole is better at killing bigger creatures and planeswalkers.
Abrade is good at dealing with the various artifacts that are somewhat ubiquitous.
Fire // Ice can be really amazing in certain narrow cases, and I think the utility makes it more worthy of consideration than Forked Bolt these days.
Engineered Explosives is a potentially amazing sweeper that can deal with stuff that you might otherwise be unable to deal with — and also grows Goyfs.
Dismember kills off X/5s and can be cast from any land. The 4 life and inability to hit planeswalkers are relevant downsides though.
Any other spells that people like running?

Also, has anyone tested running a main deck copy of Cindervines? Artifacts are fairly common enough to warrant at least considering Abrade, but CV also doubles as a sort of threat if landed early enough

Final question for now: has anyone had much success with running Winter Orb in the sideboard? Is it justified given the current metagame?

[Luca Grease]

Between the two, I would probably choose library because it grows goyf, although I think neither is necessary in the current meta (not enough uw control).

If you're playing arcanist (you should) then you'll want chain lightning as your 5th removal. You'll face a lot of w6/tarmo mirrors, and Arcanist can be very good or very bad against tarmo depending on whether you have a bolt or not. Also, it kills opposing arcanists cleanly. Sinkhole is a nice upgrade to dismember and being able to clip opposing pws is nice,but tarmo is too often a 5/6 these days for it to reliably answer it (or for us to really need it against angler). Also, it's another gy card that increases your vulnerability to rip (minor but not irrelevant). I like abrade for its versatility and as an answer to prelate, but DNT has been beaten down enough by wrenn that I don't feel the need to edge against it anymore. Still, it kills arcanist and chalice, so it might be the best alternative to chain lightning.

I have tested vines and i don't really like it. The extra Mana feels like a pretty big downside when you want to destroy that equipment or chalice asap. The damage is nice but when you board it in your really want it for the disenchant effect, and instant speed is much better for obvious reasons. I've gone back to revelry since.

[KobeBryan]

Between the two, I would probably choose library because it grows goyf, although I think neither is necessary in the current meta (not enough uw control).

If you're playing arcanist (you should) then you'll want chain lightning as your 5th removal. You'll face a lot of w6/tarmo mirrors, and Arcanist can be very good or very bad against tarmo depending on whether you have a bolt or not. Also, it kills opposing arcanists cleanly. Sinkhole is a nice upgrade to dismember and being able to clip opposing pws is nice,but tarmo is too often a 5/6 these days for it to reliably answer it (or for us to really need it against angler). Also, it's another gy card that increases your vulnerability to rip (minor but not irrelevant). I like abrade for its versatility and as an answer to prelate, but DNT has been beaten down enough by wrenn that I don't feel the need to edge against it anymore. Still, it kills arcanist and chalice, so it might be the best alternative to chain lightning.

I have tested vines and i don't really like it. The extra Mana feels like a pretty big downside when you want to destroy that equipment or chalice asap. The damage is nice but when you board it in your really want it for the disenchant effect, and instant speed is much better for obvious reasons. I've gone back to revelry since.

Thanks to W6, goyfs are usually pretty big already. its at least 5/6

[wcm8]

Let’s talk tertiary creature options. Let’s assume that Delver, Goyf, and to some extent 2 copies of TNN are a given.

Dreadhorde Arcanist is really powerful if he gets going, but you also want to add a critical number of spells (e.g. 2 Preordain) to ensure you always have something worth re-casting. However, it dies to everything.

Nimble Mongoose got sidelined due to the relative speed of the format, as well as the seeming decline of Miracles. However, I could potentially see it continuing to see play if UWx decks return.

Hooting Mandrills is an interesting alternative creature, which can be easily supported by running some number of Thought Scour. It has the advantage of dodging Bolt and Decay, as well as ignoring graveyard hate if already deployed. Being a 4/4 enables it to brickwall a lot of the format, including opposing Arcanists. Finally, trample enables it to cut through a board stall, even against a TNN or Mother of Runes.

Young Pyromancer typically only sees play in straight UR Delver, but it’s not impossible to consider RUG running some number of these guys to allow for a go-wide strategy. I’m actually strongly considering adding 1-2 copies to my list for the sake of variety and potential blowouts.

Then there’s some other more obscure options, such as Pteramander, Grim Lavamancer, etc. A significant problem a lot of these face is having 1-toughness, which is a huge liability in a format with W&6 (and a strike against Y. Pyromancer). Plus, there’s no guarantee that hate-bears like Scavenging Ooze or Collector Ouphe will line up well against your opponent, hence making them better sideboard fits.

Anyways, what’re you guys testing? Does Hooting Mandrills deserve the slot over Arcanist, or is Arcanist just so good on a stalled board that nothing else really compares?

[MinosSnt]

Why not a 4th W6 and & GSZ to have a 5th Tarmogoyf ?

[wcm8]

Why not a 4th W6 and & GSZ to have a 5th Tarmogoyf ?

As good as W6 is, too many copies can get flooded. The general rule of thumb for legacy blue decks is:
4 copies if you don’t mind frequently seeing multiples every game
3 copies if you want to reliably see at least one copy the majority of games
2 copies if it’s a spell you’d like to cast once in a game but typically no more than that
1 copy if it’s something you only want to see rarely; is a unique effect that’s weak in multiples (e.g. Sylvan Library), or is functioning as a “5th” copy of an existing card (e.g. Force of Negation as the 5th Force of Will)

It’s not super common, but there *are* some decks against which you may consider siding out W6.

Anyways, GSZ is an interesting idea to function as Goyf #5, and it opens the door also to running some utility creatures in the SB (e.g. Collector Ouphe, Scavenging Ooze). I recall back in the day, that in tempo mirrors you never wanted to cut actual copies of Goyf for GSZ though, as you’d often get outnumbered eventually and the 3-mana aspect of GSZ makes it more vulnerable to the various counterspells.

[Gand0rk]

It’s not super common, but there *are* some decks against which you may consider siding out W6.

Isn't it super common to side out W6 against unfair decks like Rakdos Reanimator, TES and other decks that can kill you on the 3rd turn?

[JackaBo]

I side w6 out a lot. Sometimes 2, sometimes all 3. I rather keep tnn because it pitches to fow and bolt because it can reduce the clock or get cheap wins vs ad naus or griselbrand draw 14.

I dont think GSZ has a spot. It’s too slow. I dont think you want to flood on 2 mana dumb beaters neither.
I’ve been testing a ScOz as it’s a hatebear in addition to beater. Mixed results.
I actually would add like to try another 1drop beater, be it either hexdrinker or reclaimer.
Reclaimer could further a crop rotation plan post board and finds wasteland for a wren lock. That’s not bad for a 1 mana mini-goyf

[eldub]

I honestly thought Hexdrinker was completely unplayable but actually the first copy of that card has been quite good so far. I do recommend 1 copy. I've never tried Reclaimer but that card has been a house in Depths lately.

Agree with JackaBo about taking out W6 quite a bit vs fast combo. I'm actually playing 4x Wrenn main but I take them all out vs Reanimator, Storm, etc.

[wcm8]

Both RUG decks in the top 8 of the latest GP were running 2 copies of Hexdrinker. If ever there were evidence for the card being a worthy inclusion, here it is.

Also in the top 8 list was the return of multiple copies of Submerge in the sideboard. A well timed casting of this spell can function as a brutal form of Timewalk, and it’s great in both the mirror and generally deals with Marit Lage (and even better, it gets through a Chalice on 1 like you may occasionally encounter against Lands.dec). Finally, it provides a potential out against a resolved Knight of the Reliquary.

[Malfeischylde]

Hi guys. If I may. I've been running a rug shell for a while now, and I'm wondering why the deck has added up to 19 lands instead of the 18 we used to run? W6 seems to usually dictate fewer lands than usual, not more. I kinds wanna cut a fetch for another preordain. I'm on 19 currently with a basic island owing to btb basics decks, the mirror, and ghost quarter / assassin's trophy if it gets through.

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[Malfeischylde]

Also, what ceature do you cut for a hexdrinker? A goyf or a tnn or what? I'm on 4 delver, 3 tnn, 3 goyf, and 2 arcanist

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[Malfeischylde]

I will also add that reclaimed is very gross and a 3x4 beater with a cool backup ability is very good...probably not in this deck tho. Doesnt feel right. Hexdrinker is best ok, bc for the cc of tnn you get to activate the first ability. I'm still not super sold on it, bc it's a full tapout turn, usually.

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[KobeBryan]

Also, what ceature do you cut for a hexdrinker? A goyf or a tnn or what? I'm on 4 delver, 3 tnn, 3 goyf, and 2 arcanist

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Arcanist is not for this deck.

[wcm8]

Hi guys. If I may. I've been running a rug shell for a while now, and I'm wondering why the deck has added up to 19 lands instead of the 18 we used to run? W6 seems to usually dictate fewer lands than usual, not more. I kinds wanna cut a fetch for another preordain. I'm on 19 currently with a basic island owing to btb basics decks, the mirror, and ghost quarter / assassin's trophy if it gets through.

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The 19th land is either Lonely Sandbar or (more commonly) Fiery Islet, both of which function more like a spell than a land since they're being run for the sake of drawing cards, especially with Wrenn's +1 recursion ability. These are both very powerful in tandem with W6's ability, and Islet in particular is good at giving you a bit more mana accessibility when necessary. However, Sandbar is better at drawing cards since it's an instant-speed ability that you can do at the end of your opponent's turn and doesn't require a land drop. It's completely reasonable to run the UG version instead of Fiery Islet too.

After more testing, many players (myself included) have come to the overall conclusion that right now, Hexdrinker is the superior option over Dreadhorde Arcanist. This deck wants creatures that can close out games, and Hexdrinker is essentially a modernized form of Nimble Mongoose. It's not difficult to get him leveled up in the midgame, which will protect him as the vast majority of Legacy removal spells are Instants. And if you're at a point in the game where you're facing down a Jace, you very well might be able to get him to ultimate size, and thus dodge Jace's -1 Unsummon ability. Hexdrinker is great at breaking eventual board stalls, as well as dodging graveyard hate like Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void or Relic of Progenitus -- which cause problems for Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose, Hooting Mandrills and Dreadhorde Arcanist.

It's true that a well-timed Arcanist can easily run away with a game, but he's not so great against decks that play creatures of their own which seems to be where RUG can struggle the most.

Also, I agree with a lot of the suggestions from Jarvis Yu after top-8ing the latest Grand Prix. Here's a link to his report: http://llarack.blogspot.com/2019/09/grand-prix-atlanta.html

The decklist he recommends going forward:

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Hexdrinker
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Wrenn and Six
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Fiery Islet
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Crop Rotation
1 Force of Negation
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hydroblast
1 Karakas
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library

I think this is a good starting point, with minor changes in the sideboard made based on your expected metagame. 3 copies of Submerge seems right if you expect to see a fair number of big Green creature decks; if you instead expect to run into a fair amount of Reanimator and/or Dark Depths, running Vapor Snag instead is probably the right call.

[Malfeischylde]

Thanks for the link to Jarvis' post. Yea I trust him a bunch. I have the islet as land 19 as well. Like it more than sandbar bc it comes in untapped although I understand the utility of sandbar. Hoping to figure out the list before scg. Think I may play it there. Gotta see. Currently still a bit up in the air about hexdrinker although a lot of people have been loving it

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[eldub]

With these decks moving to Hexdrinker over Arcanist, it seems to me that Waterlogged Grove may be the go-to spell land. The deck is more dependent on G than R to win in most games.

Against some combo matchups, I often take out both Lightning Bolt and W6. This leaves almost no red spells left in the deck. I've taken out Fiery Islet at times (mostly on the draw), but if you switch to Waterlogged Grove, you could also consider cutting a Volc on the draw.

[wcm8]

Well remember that the sideboard cards are still very relevant (e.g. Pyroblast), and for example against DnT, you really want access to Red to reliably cast your creature and artifact removal spells. Green is just used for casting creatures and a few minor sideboard spells (and half of W&6). So while I agree that Waterlogged Grove is a decent choice, I'm not necessarily sure it's better than Fiery Islet given the deck's current configuration. But it's honestly a small enough issue that it won't make a difference in the vast majority games you play.

[Water_Wizard]

What’s the 15th sideboard card in Daryl Ayer’s winning list?

http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/133330

My first through is Surgical Extraction. Second thought is Winter Orb.

[kombatkiwi]

What’s the 15th sideboard card in Daryl Ayer’s winning list?

http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/133330

My first through is Surgical Extraction. Second thought is Winter Orb.

In his last few lists he has played 1 Orb but I can't find the list from that exact tournament

[eldub]

Probably Surgical, Sylvan Library, or Dismember.

[Luca Grease]

I've been away from magic a few weeks, and it seems like the cutting edge RUG decklists are shifting at an unprecedented pace... The deck has gone a more grindy/midrange direction with the printing of w6 and arcanist initially, then it seemed that the latter was being replaced by hexdrinker as people realised that card was better than they previously thought... Fast forward a few weeks, and the most successful lists of the largest tournament have almost taken a 180, going back to a lower to the ground tempo 60 with stifle and mandrills and significantly cutting down on more recent, grinder additions. Considering the tournament size and the caliber players piloting them, this is unlikely to be an outlying result... Anyone knows the reasons behind this, or better yet, can provide a link to an explanation by the players themselves?

[eldub]

You're not wrong about the pace of change. We also had a lot of Legacy events in a short period including GP ATL in between two SCG events which drove a ton of testing. Daryl Ayers drove a ton of thought leadership on leveraging stifle in a meta where 20%+ of your matchups are the mirror. Delver decks with Stifle will often have a pretty big advantage in pseudo-mirrors.

I played a very midrange list in GP ATL (4x W6, 2 TNN, 2 Hexdrinkers), and since have played a lot of the Stifle version locally. Both are very good. Currently sticking with the Stifle version because I simply enjoy the play patterns. It's amazing how much more often I blind-flip my delvers and have plenty of Blue cards to pitch for Forces when you remove lands/creatures and replace with U instants ;).

http://magic.facetofacegames.com/stifle-your-fetchland/
https://anchor.fm/thirst-for-cast/episodes/Episode-10-Tannon-THEE-Stallion-e6f5vb

On the theme of the insane rate of change, there is a lot of hype around Oko, Thief of Crowns as a 1-of answer to all sorts of situations Delver can typically never beat (Marit Lage, Chalice, Emrakul, Ensnaring Bridge, Hogaak, etc.). The number of sets released this year is mind-bending.

[Luca Grease]

Thank you, that's exactly what I was looking for. I'm glad stifle tempo lists are still a competitive choice, I've always preferred their nimble, synergystic approach to midrange playing daze and delver. The only thing I don't like about Daryl's list is the third mandrills, but I'd also cut tnn if possible. Maybe that's where the one copy of oko could fit

[eldub]

SorboOne just won the Legacy Format Playoffs online; I like his list w/ 3x Stifle. Mine is very similar except I'm playing an Oko over TNN and FoN over the 2nd Pierce. I agree with only having 2 Delve spells in total.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-format-playoff-2019-10-14

[meffeo]

Recently picked up my W&6s into a clean 4-0 at our weekly. What's the general consensus regarding Magmatic Sinkhole? I played 2 Wrenn and 0 Oko but might shave the 3rd TNN for a Sinkhole.

[BKclassic]

Recently picked up my W&6s into a clean 4-0 at our weekly. What's the general consensus regarding Magmatic Sinkhole? I played 2 Wrenn and 0 Oko but might shave the 3rd TNN for a Sinkhole.

Magmatic Sinkhole is a pretty solid 1-of to have in your 75 if you're not on Hooting Mandrills. However, Oko does a similiar kind of thing (later game removal) and can single-handedly win the game in a bunch of situations.

[goliaththegreat]

With W&6 getting banned this morning, what does the deck look like now? Does it try and go back to Goose?

[wcm8]

I'm not so sure that RUG is necessarily the best Delver option now. BUG and Grixis Delver become much more attractive options. Baleful Strix, Young Pyromancer, Dark Confidant etc. -- all X/1 creatures are more playable given that W&6 is gone, although Plague Engineer becomes a very valuable card to consider with decks like Elves and DnT coming back. Hard to say what the ideal loadout for a Delver deck is going forward, but Tarmogoyf becomes a less attractive option when unconditional removal increases in popularity.

Straight up Izzet/UR Delver was also doing well even before the ban. There are certainly some good Green cards worth running, but do they really justify the splash? Oko is still a very powerful planeswalker though, and helps solve some of the problems RUG was facing -- but he slots just as well into BUG.

[Sentient6]

So this is awkward. I literally just bought into RUG. I got goyf and my Tropicals and Oko. All I did not yet buy was W6. I guess I got that going for me. Now everyone seems to be moving over to BUG. I am sure it's a nice deck, but I do not own Underground Sea. All I have is 3 Trops and 3 Volcs. So how do I salvage RUG? I am currently on 4 Mongoose, 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 2 Oko as threats along with the stifle/waste/pierce plan, but Goose seems to be so underpowered nowadays. I am fine with not having a T1 deck, I just want to find the optimal version of RUG. Do we play some number of Snapcaster? Turning that one into an elk seems ok. Hexdrinker seems too mana intensive, Arcanist needs a turn to get value. Maybe mandrils and a third oko? Young pyro? What are you guys planning?

[Fox]

So this is awkward. I literally just bought into RUG. I got goyf and my Tropicals and Oko. All I did not yet buy was W6. I guess I got that going for me. Now everyone seems to be moving over to BUG. I am sure it's a nice deck, but I do not own Underground Sea. All I have is 3 Trops and 3 Volcs. So how do I salvage RUG? I am currently on 4 Mongoose, 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 2 Oko as threats along with the stifle/waste/pierce plan, but Goose seems to be so underpowered nowadays. I am fine with not having a T1 deck, I just want to find the optimal version of RUG. Do we play some number of Snapcaster? Turning that one into an elk seems ok. Hexdrinker seems too mana intensive, Arcanist needs a turn to get value. Maybe mandrils and a third oko? Young pyro? What are you guys planning?

Unfortunately playing a stream of dudes into Snapcaster + 1 mana removal spells isn’t a winning formula. Replace Goose with Hexdrinker (you need to be able to not lose attacker to Strix/Ice-Fang), flood your maindeck with Cindervines and away from Goyf. The one good thing you have going on is that Goyf use is going to plummet so you no longer need to run your own for mutually-assured destruction.

[Beast]

So this is awkward. I literally just bought into RUG. I got goyf and my Tropicals and Oko. All I did not yet buy was W6. I guess I got that going for me. Now everyone seems to be moving over to BUG. I am sure it's a nice deck, but I do not own Underground Sea. All I have is 3 Trops and 3 Volcs. So how do I salvage RUG? I am currently on 4 Mongoose, 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 2 Oko as threats along with the stifle/waste/pierce plan, but Goose seems to be so underpowered nowadays. I am fine with not having a T1 deck, I just want to find the optimal version of RUG. Do we play some number of Snapcaster? Turning that one into an elk seems ok. Hexdrinker seems too mana intensive, Arcanist needs a turn to get value. Maybe mandrils and a third oko? Young pyro? What are you guys planning?

Canadian has always been kind of a decent deck. It is very adaptable on its own so no matter where the meta is heading, delver decks will always be a viable choice.

That said, I would suggest a more reactive and tempo like approach. You would not want to spam threats to the board that will be outclassed quickly since W&6 are no longer there to provide that massive value boost or even lock the opponent out of the game.
Ice Fang and Strix will probably make a huge comeback so you don't want to get stuck in those with your Goyfs. We might even see BUG Control shells incoming playing both of them on top of Oko in order to control the boardstate.
Also UWx decks might make a triumphant return, so be ready to face some Swords and stuff again.

Long story short, we don't control the board any more in most matchups. Period. So our game plan should shift away from that - so what else are we good at? Controlling the stack. Controlling the mana. So that's where we go (again).

Depending on the development of the meta, I think we might experience the comeback of classic Canadian with the most mana efficient threats (4 Delver, 3-4 Mongoose, 1-2 Mandrills) combined with 1 or 2 stall breakers (TNN) and / or even Orbs in the main deck if the meta gets greedy enough to do so. A total of ~12 threats embedded in a framework of counter magic and mana denial and about 6 removal spells. This list demands a strict tempo like play pattern; we must identify and handle any card that could cost us the game or else we just lose. On the other hand though, handling those cards is a little bit easier for us 'cause we are loaded with stack interaction. While we handle cards, a single threat of our own goes upstairs each turn.

Or else, we might go for a more versatile setup of threats ignoring their efficiency to a certain degree. That would include stuff like YP, Oko and Brazen Borrower that allow us to fall behind on the board if we must since we can catch up later on. This then requires a higher density of threats and therefore less stack interaction which makes us weaker against combo but more resilient against fair decks.

[Sentient6]

Probably a stupid idea, Oko is probably better.. But if the deathtouchers get more common again, has anyone thought about the Royal Scions? Tons of loyalty, offers card selection and supports delve, let's even a goyf attack past blockers without dying and ticks up to a strong ultimate. Of course 3 mana is a lot and it needs another threat. But it does help digging.

[Beast]

Probably a stupid idea, Oko is probably better.. But if the deathtouchers get more common again, has anyone thought about the Royal Scions? Tons of loyalty, offers card selection and supports delve, let's even a goyf attack past blockers without dying and ticks up to a strong ultimate. Of course 3 mana is a lot and it needs another threat. But it does help digging.

I think the main issue with the Royal Scions is that you in fact need another threat for them to shine while Oko is a threat on his own and is also able to answer pesky owls and snakes by either elking them so they don't kill your attacker (if you have Goyf or Mandrills) or simply flooding the board with food and turn that to elks so the deathtouchers will be outnumbered eventually.
Oko takes over the board within few turns and greatly improves any race situation on its own. Scions just dig a little bit for solutions where Oko simply is that solution.

The only reason to play Scions over Oko would be YP imo since Scions can dig for more spells and make real threats out of one token per turn while the rest can stay back and protect Scions 'til they can <-8> and win the game, but again the argument will be that Scions then do need YP to be online to be great.

[JackaBo]

So guys Noble Hierarch is playable again.
It’s great with oko
- it powers it out
- it pumps your Elks in oko mirrors
- late game hierarchs can be made into elks

Its great with snake
- snake is scalable for dork draws or one land keeps

It’s great with mandrils delver and tnn
- as they all have Evasion thus benefit from the exhalted buff

Its great with winter orb
- aka the premiere way of beating the influx of strix and uw decks

[Jesture]

So guys Noble Hierarch is playable again.
It’s great with oko
- it powers it out
- it pumps your Elks in oko mirrors
- late game hierarchs can be made into elks

Its great with snake
- snake is scalable for dork draws or one land keeps

It’s great with mandrils delver and tnn
- as they all have Evasion thus benefit from the exhalted buff

Its great with winter orb
- aka the premiere way of beating the influx of strix and uw decks

Currently working on optimizing an Infect 75, but Noble Hierarch RUG is my next project after that. Using the mana advantage to leverage Stifle/Daze/Wasteland/Winter Orb is some of the most fun I've ever had playing Magic, so I'm excited to see if there's a way to bring it back.

Sort of rough and thoroughly untested, this is my starting point:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

3 Noble Hierarch
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hexdrinker
1 Brazen Borrower

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

4 Stifle

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt

2 Oko, Thief of Crowns

There's obvious tension with Winter Orb and Hexdrinker, so I've relegated all copies of the former to the sideboard. Brazen Borrower seems fine as a main deck one of, though I could see replacing it with a True-Name Nemesis. Threat suite is a little bizarre, I've never really liked having to pay two for Tarmogoyfs so I've made a move back to all one drop threats and a pair of Oko's on the top end. Hopefully the exalted 4/4 Mongeese are enough to swing over any pesky Elk our opponent may accrue over the course of the match, though I'm happy to move back to Goyf/Mandrils if the Goose doesn't work out.

Edit: Jammed a bunch of games against Infect last night. First impressions are that Brazen Borrower over performed while Nimble Mongoose under performed. I placed a pretty large emphasis on building the deck to only include one drops, but with the Hierarchs providing extra mana it often feels like we're just flooded out while deploying undercosted threats. Maybe a move to some number of Tarmogoyf/TNN would be beneficial.

[JackaBo]

I think the tension is smaller than you think. Drinker is totally fine as Savanna Lion should you have winter orb in play. I’m curious how Goose turn out. This is what i’ve run:

Deck: Legacy Delver Noble RUG

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:12
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Hexdrinker
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft
1 Hooting Mandrills

Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
1 Winter Orb
1 Force of Negation
2 Oko, Thief of Crowns
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft
2 Blazing Volley
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Veil of Summer
2 Abrade
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb

[Water_Wizard]

Once the deck starts running Noble Heirarch, it does not want Delver of Secrets and vice versa. Noble is best with Stoneforge Mystic and other creature cards, Delver needs a higher instant/sorcery count to work.

For that reason, outside of Oko and creatures, you don't want to run any non-instant or sorcery cards main deck. Your main deck should be 9-13 creatures, 18 lands, and 2 Oko, so you have 27-31 instant/sorceries for a good chance to flip Delver.

I also think this deck wants Tarmogoyf. And Stifle. Stifle fits the Daze/Wasteland plan well and protects our fragile 18 land.

[BKclassic]

Once the deck starts running Noble Heirarch, it does not want Delver of Secrets and vice versa. Noble is best with Stoneforge Mystic and other creature cards, Delver needs a higher instant/sorcery count to work.

I definitely agree. I don't know if people want to talk about a Delver-less build in this thread but this is what I have been trying lightly:

1 Dryad Arbor
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ramanup Excavator
1 Tireless Tribe

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

4 Oko, Thief of Crowns

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Daze
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
1 Collector Ouphe
2 Reclemation Sage
2 Veil of Summer
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction

After the Wrenn and Six banning, I started by trying to run Punishing Fire in Delver builds for more grinding power against these UWx Snow decks. It kind of worked but Delver just doesn't go great with Grove/Punishing Fire. So I tried some durdley snow RUG builds with Astrolabe, Ice-Fang Coatl and Punishing Fire. They weren't great. I then tried some of the NO RUG builds that have had some results online of late. That deck sort of works well but kind of needs to commit to being a snow deck or not.

Regarding this deck, I just think Noble Hierarch is the superior tempo card compared to Delver of Secrets. Cranking out Oko's is where you want to be and Veil of Summer means that permanent based answers are ideal, which invites Green Sun's Zenith. You could run Natural Order in a build like this but consider the upside of Natural Order versus UWx Snow, Death and Taxes and Delver. Natural Order is sort of better against Death and Taxes but terrible against the other two and Punishing Fire is great against all three.

Regarding the Green Sun's Zenith Package, Tireless tribe is awesome. I kind of want to just run 3 Tarmogoyf and 2 Tireless Tribe. I've been running Scavenging Ooze because I see everyone else doing it but I think Collector Ouphe is the more actionable MD hate card. Still finessing the numbers and the sideboard.

[H]

I then tried some of the NO RUG builds that have had some results online of late. That deck sort of works well but kind of needs to commit to being a snow deck or not.

Word on the street is that Bahra has had some good results of late with his build of NO RUG, but I don't know what it is exactly and haven't seen it myself.

[JackaBo]

Came second in our local legacy leagues season finals with this 2020 version of canadian.
Next up i’m gonna try the grixis tech of drawspell plus mystic sanctuary. The draw card of choice will obviously be Tragic Lesson.


https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/legacy-league-x-finals-tournament-60364

Some back story om the build.

I’ve been running noble RUG before W&6 with tnn. After W&6 ban hierarch felt very powerful to gain early tempo advantage. I really liked how the extra mana-sources had synergies with mana intensive cards such as Oko and Hexdrinker and also with the ”hold up mana package” of pierce, snare, stifle, reb, veil.

However Nobel hierarch took a threat slot and sometimes i’d feel too threat light. So the last weeks i went up to 14 threats:
4 delver +2 hexdrinkers
3-4 Goyf
2-3 Oko
0-1 borrower
And up to 20 lands of which two were canopy lands that can prevent flooding.

[H]

Here is an example of where we are at today with RUG Delver:

7-1 list from B-Carp (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2894398):

2 Oko, Thief of Crowns

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dreadhorde Arcanist
2 Hooting Mandrills
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blazing Volley
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
2 Veil of Summer

[H]

No companion? No problem, RUG still doing RUG's thing:

Ergazpo 5-1 deck from the Legacy Challenge (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2987889):

3 Oko, Thief of Crowns

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Hooting Mandrills
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Abrade
1 Blazing Volley
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Cindervines
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Veil of Summer
2 Winter Orb

Sometimes, you do Delver things and you don't even need an extra card in hand!

[BKclassic]

Well, I hope everyone is enjoying the post-Lurris metagame. I figured I would share my results through six leagues and discuss some of my conclusions. I primarily played a configuration with Tarmogoyf and Hooting Mandrills but I also experimented with Nimble Mongoose and Dreadhorde Arcanist as noted:

Goyf and Mandrills:
GWUB aggro loam 2-1
Omnitell 2-0
Hogaak 1-2
Reanimator 1-2
BW Pox 2-0
Result: 3-2

Goyf and Dreadhorde:
Mono Black Pox 2-1
Snowko 0-2
Mono Black Reanimator 2-0
Hogaak 1-2
UG Titan 1-2
Result: 2-3

Goose and Goyf:
UG Show and Tell 1-2
UBR Storm 2-0
Eldrazi 2-0
Aluren 2-0
UR Delver 2-1
Result: 4-1

Goose and Goyf:
Enchantress 2-1
RUG Delver 1-2
Ninjas 1-2
Dredge 2-0
UW Yorion Miracles 2-0
Result: 3-2

Goyf and Mandrills:
Mono Black Tin Fins 1-2
Gyruda Reanimator Depths 2-1
TES 2-1
UR Delver 2-1
UG Titan 1-2
Result: 3-2

Goyf and Mandrills:
RUG Delver 2-0
Elves 1-2
RUG Delver 2-1
RUG Delver 2-1
Urion Snowko 1-2
Result: 3-2

Win Percentage: 60%

Conclusions:
-As you can see, while Astrolabe's presence in the metagame is felt, it isn't exactly dominating the meta. The meta seems to be Delver, Snowko, and various unfair decks which are mostly graveyard decks.
-Unfortunately, Hooting Mandrills is much better in RUG Delver mirrrors but Nimble Mongoose is much against Snowko. The fast beatdown of Hooting Mandrills is usually appreciated against the various unfair match ups, so I played Mandrills the most.

Here is the what I've settled on so far:

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt

4 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

5 Open-Slots

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
12 Open-Slots, probably at least 3 graveyard hate spells.

I did have some intial concerns about running 3 Hooting Mandrills with no Thout Scours or additional cantrips. Last time I played the 4 Delver/4 Goyf/3 Mandrills loadout I was playing 4x Gitaxian Probe to fill the graveyard. However, this configuration seems to be running pretty smoothly. Hooting Mandrills synergizes nicely with Stifle since you can't drop Mandrills turn 1 anyway letting you hold up Stifle.

With regard to the main deck open slots, I'm really not sure what to do with them. Most people seem to be running Oko, Chain Lightning and Force of Negation in these slots and it is what I have been playing as well. Unfortunately, in Hooting Mandrills build, a couple Oko's in the maindeck is not going to swing the Snowko match in your favor. Oko isn't especially good in Delver mirrors or against the unfair decks. Chain Lightning isn't very good or exciting but a couple extra answers to Dreadhorde Arcanist are appreciated. I guess the Force of Negation is all right. In general, it's hard to find 5 more cards that are as good as the other 55 cards in the deck. Cards I might be more excited about might include Spell Pierce, Brazen Borrower and Dismember.

With regard to the sideboard, there are unfortunately a multitude of cards I'm interested in. Veil of Summer, Flusterstorm, Sylvan Library, Winter Orb, Klothys, Collector Ouphe, Return to Nature, Cindervines, Submerge, Rough/Tumble.
-Veil of Summer is a card I can't make my mind up about. Most opponents have designed their deck not to walk into in. The Doomsday deck doesn't target you to win anymore with Thassa's Oracle and TES just plays Veil of Summer and Defense Grid as protection spells. Against Show and Tell, Veil of Summer doesn't trump their Veil of Summer when they go to cast Show and Tell. Basically in unfair situations, Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm are a lot better. However, against Snowko, you can be sure that they are going to try and Abrupt Decay your Winter Orb and that is the application where Veil of Summer shines the most. However, I can't really figure out a Hooting Mandrills configuration that I like against Snowko which makes me want to consider the match up a lost cause since it isn't dominating the meta.
-Also I can't really decide what graveyard hate package I like best. To consistently beat all graveyard decks, I think the best option would be 4 maindeck Dreadhorde Arcanist plus 4 sideboard Surgical Extraction. Grafdigger's Cage doesn't really get the job does against Hogaak as they bring in removal for for it or just put Hogaak into play from their hand. The problem with Dreadhorde Arcanist is that it probably involves not playing Stifle which seems highly questionable to me and it isn't the best card in the Delver mirror and being able to win the mirror is definitely something we have to be able to do. I've been playing 2x Surgical Extraction and 2x Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard, which is probably the best configuration against Reanimator but drawing a lone Surgical Extraction in your opening 7 as your only graveyard hate against Hogaak or Dredge is a little lackluster. I suppose if you can beat them down quickly, which the Hooting Mandrills build can do, a single Surgical Extraction can get the job done. The 2x Cage and Surgical is the configuration I have been running but I have strongly been considering Tormod's Crypt which is quite good Dredge and Reanimator but a little lackluster against Hogaak.

All in all I just need to figure out a way to pick up a few more percentage points so I can 4-1 more regularly. Unfortunately, I don't know how much more juice can be squeezed from the Mandrills build. It has a great mirror, but the upside against unfair decks isn't that great compared to Mongoose builds and Mandrills aren't great against Snowko. I guess I can see Mongeese having an acceptable mirror against other RUG Delver decks, which mostly seem to be running Hooting Mandrills. This would probably involve main deck Brazen Borrowers to bounce opposing Mandrills. Maybe there is a Dreadhorde build out there that could somehow win me over. Still a lot of work to be done on the sideboard, I really can't decide what I want in there.

Anyway, if anyone else is playing RUG Delver I would be fascinated to see what you are running and how you put your sideboard together. Cheerio!

[JackaBo]

Well, I hope everyone is enjoying the post-Lurris metagame. I figured I would share my results through six leagues and discuss some of my conclusions. I primarily played a configuration with Tarmogoyf and Hooting Mandrills but I also experimented with Nimble Mongoose and Dreadhorde Arcanist as noted:

Goyf and Mandrills:
GWUB aggro loam 2-1
Omnitell 2-0
Hogaak 1-2
Reanimator 1-2
BW Pox 2-0
Result: 3-2

Goyf and Dreadhorde:
Mono Black Pox 2-1
Snowko 0-2
Mono Black Reanimator 2-0
Hogaak 1-2
UG Titan 1-2
Result: 2-3

Goose and Goyf:
UG Show and Tell 1-2
UBR Storm 2-0
Eldrazi 2-0
Aluren 2-0
UR Delver 2-1
Result: 4-1

Goose and Goyf:
Enchantress 2-1
RUG Delver 1-2
Ninjas 1-2
Dredge 2-0
UW Yorion Miracles 2-0
Result: 3-2

Goyf and Mandrills:
Mono Black Tin Fins 1-2
Gyruda Reanimator Depths 2-1
TES 2-1
UR Delver 2-1
UG Titan 1-2
Result: 3-2

Goyf and Mandrills:
RUG Delver 2-0
Elves 1-2
RUG Delver 2-1
RUG Delver 2-1
Urion Snowko 1-2
Result: 3-2

Win Percentage: 60%

Conclusions:
-As you can see, while Astrolabe's presence in the metagame is felt, it isn't exactly dominating the meta. The meta seems to be Delver, Snowko, and various unfair decks which are mostly graveyard decks.
-Unfortunately, Hooting Mandrills is much better in RUG Delver mirrrors but Nimble Mongoose is much against Snowko. The fast beatdown of Hooting Mandrills is usually appreciated against the various unfair match ups, so I played Mandrills the most.

Here is the what I've settled on so far:

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt

4 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

5 Open-Slots

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
12 Open-Slots, probably at least 3 graveyard hate spells.

I did have some intial concerns about running 3 Hooting Mandrills with no Thout Scours or additional cantrips. Last time I played the 4 Delver/4 Goyf/3 Mandrills loadout I was playing 4x Gitaxian Probe to fill the graveyard. However, this configuration seems to be running pretty smoothly. Hooting Mandrills synergizes nicely with Stifle since you can't drop Mandrills turn 1 anyway letting you hold up Stifle.

With regard to the main deck open slots, I'm really not sure what to do with them. Most people seem to be running Oko, Chain Lightning and Force of Negation in these slots and it is what I have been playing as well. Unfortunately, in Hooting Mandrills build, a couple Oko's in the maindeck is not going to swing the Snowko match in your favor. Oko isn't especially good in Delver mirrors or against the unfair decks. Chain Lightning isn't very good or exciting but a couple extra answers to Dreadhorde Arcanist are appreciated. I guess the Force of Negation is all right. In general, it's hard to find 5 more cards that are as good as the other 55 cards in the deck. Cards I might be more excited about might include Spell Pierce, Brazen Borrower and Dismember.

With regard to the sideboard, there are unfortunately a multitude of cards I'm interested in. Veil of Summer, Flusterstorm, Sylvan Library, Winter Orb, Klothys, Collector Ouphe, Return to Nature, Cindervines, Submerge, Rough/Tumble.
-Veil of Summer is a card I can't make my mind up about. Most opponents have designed their deck not to walk into in. The Doomsday deck doesn't target you to win anymore with Thassa's Oracle and TES just plays Veil of Summer and Defense Grid as protection spells. Against Show and Tell, Veil of Summer doesn't trump their Veil of Summer when they go to cast Show and Tell. Basically in unfair situations, Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm are a lot better. However, against Snowko, you can be sure that they are going to try and Abrupt Decay your Winter Orb and that is the application where Veil of Summer shines the most. However, I can't really figure out a Hooting Mandrills configuration that I like against Snowko which makes me want to consider the match up a lost cause since it isn't dominating the meta.
-Also I can't really decide what graveyard hate package I like best. To consistently beat all graveyard decks, I think the best option would be 4 maindeck Dreadhorde Arcanist plus 4 sideboard Surgical Extraction. Grafdigger's Cage doesn't really get the job does against Hogaak as they bring in removal for for it or just put Hogaak into play from their hand. The problem with Dreadhorde Arcanist is that it probably involves not playing Stifle which seems highly questionable to me and it isn't the best card in the Delver mirror and being able to win the mirror is definitely something we have to be able to do. I've been playing 2x Surgical Extraction and 2x Grafdigger's Cage in the sideboard, which is probably the best configuration against Reanimator but drawing a lone Surgical Extraction in your opening 7 as your only graveyard hate against Hogaak or Dredge is a little lackluster. I suppose if you can beat them down quickly, which the Hooting Mandrills build can do, a single Surgical Extraction can get the job done. The 2x Cage and Surgical is the configuration I have been running but I have strongly been considering Tormod's Crypt which is quite good Dredge and Reanimator but a little lackluster against Hogaak.

All in all I just need to figure out a way to pick up a few more percentage points so I can 4-1 more regularly. Unfortunately, I don't know how much more juice can be squeezed from the Mandrills build. It has a great mirror, but the upside against unfair decks isn't that great compared to Mongoose builds and Mandrills aren't great against Snowko. I guess I can see Mongeese having an acceptable mirror against other RUG Delver decks, which mostly seem to be running Hooting Mandrills. This would probably involve main deck Brazen Borrowers to bounce opposing Mandrills. Maybe there is a Dreadhorde build out there that could somehow win me over. Still a lot of work to be done on the sideboard, I really can't decide what I want in there.

Anyway, if anyone else is playing RUG Delver I would be fascinated to see what you are running and how you put your sideboard together. Cheerio!

Hey
I've been running little more midrange version during the breach meta which served me well:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24597&d=372045&f=LE
I don't think I like 3 mandrills. Have you played around with Hexdrinker? To me it has been really strong. This particular sideboard might be a little off in an open meta since this was the league finals, an invitational tourney with 16 known players.

After that I have been testing an arcanist centric build which you might want to try.
The deck has run
4 delver
4 arcanist
3 pyromancer
3 oko

4 bolt + 1 chain Lightning
6 forces
0 pierces or snares
1 MD pyroblast (!!)
10 cantrips

18 normal lands + 2 canopy lands

So this is more like a UR delver deck splashing green for Oko and the playstyle is much like grixis delver, in that you jam your threats and never hold up mana.
The threat suite is very synergestic. Arcanist fueling pyromancer and pyromancer tokens turn Oko into a much better threat. This threatbase is super strong against 8-strix type of defence since you can afford to waste bolts on them ( to rebuy with arcanist) and pyromancer tokens are great vs strixes, removal and Oko. The redblast is there because you can use it as a counter then as a removal with arcanist. Vs non blue deck it's a dud but sometimes it makes an elemental.

I do not play online though so this has mostly been tested on Skype. I feel strong versus most decks but still struggeling vs Snoko and in particular vs Uro and sideboard carpet of flowers. Both those cards are a menace to delver type decks IMO.

About veil. I think you should have it in your board if you want a slot against decay-decks. Like as you say, to protect the Winter orb or your beater. That's the slot it's filling . Then can come in vs combo, in particular storm variants, but that's not why it's there. I think cages sounds good if you don't run arcanist. It's actually good vs TES too, since their plan A seem to be echo against delver.

I am also a fan of the card blazing volley, especially in an Arcanist shell. It's such a blow out vs infect, DnT, empty the warrens and fine vs strix-decks.

[BKclassic]

@ Jackabo
-I appreciate your reply. Hooting Mandrills is definitely my favorite among the various green beaters: Hooting Mandrills, Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf and Hexdrinker. I certainly I think Hexdrinker is an interesting card, but I think it was best with Wrenn and Six where it was nice to have a huge mana sink.
-Regarding, Dreadhorde Arcanist, I see the truth clearly now and that Dreadhorde is the future of Temur Delver. I spent some time pondering the various RUG Delver lists featuring Jegantha from the challenge on 5/23/20 (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/legacy-challenge-12159775#paper). At first they looked strange and weird to me. After much contemplation, it became clear to me that Temur is now like the Grixis decks of yore. Delver into Dreadhorde backed up by Oko and Klothys is a powerful core. RUG actually does have the tools to beat Snowko with a potent mixture of card advantage and tempo.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dreadhorde Arcanist
2 Hooting Mandrills

3 Oko, Thief of Crowns

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will

4 Wasteland
9 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Blazing Volley
2 Return to Nature
2 Klothys, God of Destiny
1 Sylvan Library
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Jegantha, the Wellspring

-Basically the core of Delver into Dreadhorde Arcanist, Oko and Klothys is going to be hard for Snowko players to keep up with. Speaking of which, can we talk about Klothys for a second? While I do think it belongs in the sideboard, this card is awesome. A Sulfuric Vortex that is indestructible, has a 4 point life swing, doesn't lower our own life total, interacts with the graveyard and can add mana if needed? Card is legit.
-I'm not sure that Jegantha in the sideboard is needed. The deck has plenty of grinding power, a 5 mana 5/5 just isn't that exciting. Having the extra card is nice but I don't like telegraphing that Forces have been boarded out. However, you end up boarding in Tarmogoyfs against Snowko which as a two mana dumb beater isn't very exciting. A change I am considering in the sideboard is -2 Tarmogoyf, -1 Jegantha, +1 Sylvan Library, +2 Veil of Summer. However, Tarmogoyf can be good to board in against Tempo mirrors and random things like Eldrazi and Burn. I suppose that Jegantha might stick around after against a Snowko opponent after they have burned their removal on Tarmogoyf.
-It's time to get excited, lads. The Temur Moon, which waned after the banning of Wrenn and Six, is waxing once again on the back of Dreadhorde, Oko and Klothys.

[wcm8]

I actually think Klothys deserves consideration for a slot in the main 60, I'd certainly run it over the 3rd Oko. The number of decks that utilize the graveyard in Legacy is so great that it's to the point now where Scavenging Ooze is also worth considering as the 5th Goyf.

Thinking back several years, there was a time when this deck was adjusted so that it played primarily threats that were extremely hard to kill: Nimble Mongoose and 2-4 copies of True-Name Nemesis; often eschewing Tarmogoyf entirely. (Delver is just too good to cut despite being an easy target). This would make your opponent's standard removal spells dead, and I think this variant also ran some number of Winter Orb (2-3 copies typically) in the maindeck as a way of keeping the opponent in the early game phase of development.

To attack the current glut of Snowko Control decks, I think you could either use that older approach, *or* overload your opponent by playing 4x Dreadhorde Arcanist (and then whatever mixture of threats alongside it). Playing 4 copies ensures that you'll be more likely to actually resolve one that you can manage to get into the red zone. Of course, going heavy on the Red spells makes one have to consider if the green splash is even worth it -- versus having the stability of being able to run basic Islands.

Speaking of lands, with the increasing number of 3 drops, it seems that the 19th Land is not a bad idea for this deck. And depending on your configuration, this might be the 4th Tropical, the 4th Volcanic, or perhaps just another fetch land.

However, another possible consideration is Ketria Triome. I think it being fetch-able is what sends this over the top from the UR and UG Horizon Canopy variants.

[BKclassic]

@wcm8
-Regarding the shroud RUG variant, I do recall Jonathan Alexander playing a Delverless Mongoose/Mandrills/TNN/Winter Orb version designed to prey on Miracles decks with Sensei's Divining Top that were dominating the meta. I think there is probably a viable build of RUG that starts with 4 Delver, 4 Mongeese and 2 Klothys and 4 Stifle that would honestly suit my play style more than a Dreadhorde build. However, I think the Dreadhorde version is probably more powerful albeit more challenging to pilot so I'm working on that for now.
-With regard to the Dreadhorde build, I'm pretty darn sure that 4 Dreadhorde and 3 Oko is where you want to be. The thing about Dreadhorde is that, unlike Tarmogoyf, Dreadhorde is worth having a Force of Will battle over. This is important because even if you lose the Force of Will battle, your opponent is going to be low on resources leaving them in a not great position to deal with Oko as the follow up. An opponent low on resources is where Oko really shines. So I definitely feel that we want to jam as many Oko's as we can in a 4 Dreadhorde build, which is why I play 3. Conversely, losing a Force of Will battle over Dreadhorde into Klothys seems much less lackluster as Klothys doesn't tend to dominate the board like Oko. I still think that Klothys could be a reasonable main deck inclusion although I'm just not seeing enough Snowko decks in the MTGO League metagame right now to warrant it's inclusion. I definitely agree that at least 19 lands are needed in the Dreadhorde build, I'm just running the 9th fetch for now.

[wcm8]

If you feel that Dreadhorde is worth fighting over, you can run 1-2 main deck Force of Negation, as well as 1-2 Flusterstorm. These seem like the best options for not only ensuring you can resolve the card, but protect it as well.

Another card to consider is 1-2 main deck Counterbalance.

There are so many instances where all you need is just a turn to avoid 1-cmc removal spells, and with all of the filter the deck runs, it's not that hard to enable this. Plus, it just wins some games. If Counterbalance hits even just one spell over the course of the game, it's done its job; if it hits more and/or stops your opponent from doing anything for some number of turns, well... then it's practically like running Time Walk in your deck.

It's always been a question of what mixture of counter magic to run, and some builds even considered running 1 copy of the good old Counterspell (which is perfectly reasonable, imho). A single maindeck Pyroblast isn't terrible either; in most situations it will have just as many targets as your Spell Snare or other narrow counter magic might have.

I think you need to decide if you want Stifle or not. I'm not so sure that the 3-4 slots are worth it. I think you can just as easily just run 19 Lands, maybe 1 copy of Life from the Loam (or maybe even Carpet of Flowers in a blue-heavy metagame) and do fine against the majority of the format.

My thinking is that being the aggressor is generally just better than hoping you draw the correct counter magic in the correct situations. Playing a 'counter-burn' style is likely to win more games than hoping to get lucky and Stifle your opponent out of the game. Chain Lightning and Forked Bolt are excellent choices, but I've also always been a fan of Fire // Ice in this deck thanks to its versatility -- and it being blue would be especially relevant if you decide to run Force of Negation on top of Force of Will.

Another thing to perhaps consider is that new draw spell: Of One Mind. This is trivially easy to reduce to just a single :u: , especially if you run Young Pyromancer (which seems like it'd be quite absurd alongside this card).

[wcm8]

The cards Icefang Coatl and Baleful Strix are a problem for RUG, and so I did some thinking about how to beat them.

Obviously, Spell Snare is quite amazing right now and should probably have at least a few slots in your 60. REB and Pyroblasts in the sideboard help out as well.

Using creatures of our own isn't ideal, as these 4-Color Snowko decks are also running gobs of removal. Normally I'd love to sleeve up some number of Grim Lavamancer, but he doesn't do so well against StP and Terminus. Plus Lavamancer has tension with your other threshold-esque creatures, so Mongoose, Goyf and Mandrills have some tension alongside Lavamancer.

Klothys, God of Destiny seems great as a consistent form of damage, but as a 3-drop he's competing in a very tight slot against some other good cards: Oko; Brazen Borrower; Vendilion Clique; True-Name Nemesis. I run 1 in my main 60, but I'm not entirely sold on him being better than the other 3 drop options. He also doesn't deal with the Coatls.

I was considering Honden of Infinite Rage. A lot of the time it might just end up functioning as an over-costed Curse of the Pierced Heart, but a lot of games can end up getting decided by a few points of damage. Having it out early also means that any X/1 creature your opponent throws out will not be able to stay on board for long.

Cursed Scroll is an old favorite of mine, and a great card in the mid/late-game. It has the advantage of being able to activate at instant speed, but does cost a fair amount of mana to use. But RUG typically has no trouble getting towards a near-empty hand, so its ability should be fairly reliable.

Are there any other cards within the RUG color pool to draw from that deal repeated damage? (Not really interested in Punishing Fire either).

One could build a RUG deck with creatures that are entirely immune to most forms of removal. For example:
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Curse of the Pierced Heart // Cursed Scroll // Blurred Mongoose
4 True-Name Nemesis

Tarmogoyf could be in the sideboard as an anti-aggro element. This sort of mixture would be quite good against most control decks, as you'd blank their removal.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Are you not using electrickery in the board?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[wcm8]

Are you not using electrickery in the board?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

There are certainly a few sideboard options. What I'm more interested in is if there's something that is maindeck worthy.

[GoldenCid]

Which Is the right number for oko? Maybe 2?

[BKclassic]

Which Is the right number for oko? Maybe 2?

Oko is quite powerful and can always be pitched to Force of Will so I like playing 3. I think people trimming on Oko are typically trying to squeeze more Tarmogoyfs in the deck, which really help in the mirror.

[eldub]

Play 3 Oko

[GoldenCid]

I got my 2nd oko and how powerful is!!!!

I was toying with mandrils and mongoose....i am so classical...

4 goyf
4 delver
4 mongoose
1 arcanist...

[eldub]

You've got RUG Delver basically winning or at a minimum Top8 of every major event currently; straying from those well-tuned & tested lists is likely just an exercise in lower win%.

[Reeplcheep]

I never understand why mandrills is played over more goyf/arcanist, but the rug players win so I'll defer to them.

[eldub]

Trample is a huge reason why, and immunity to Abrupt Decay is an added bonus. Most of the time comes down for 1 mana, it's simply the more efficient, resilient, and evasive threat.

[malekith]

https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/141202424_10215117337765350_1479188964835179370_o.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=2&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=dS31EOaiMakAX86pMFs&_nc_oc=AQnQEndTMBny8u0OpCT3IzKvsTmPwyJDoWu_xFKmhnTtrokaeDuVv2NyQkgSYCEk-FI&_nc_ht=scontent-mad1-1.xx&oh=040d3da3e22e2e2ae10af674c10b069a&oe=6033D5F1

[BKclassic]

Well, it seems like for posterity's sake, someone should remark upon the state of RUG Delver after the Labe/Oko/Dreadhorde bannings. Call me old fashioned, but I just don't see the appeal of posting in a discord. Here is legend Ozymandias17's Top8 list from the MTGO challenge last Sunday:

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Hexdrinker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will

3 Wasteland
1 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Force of Vigor
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Klothys, God of Destiny

For anyone not in the know, in any kind of Uro mirror match, who ever gets to attack with Uro first ends up wildly ahead. Because trying to answer Uro directly tends to be a losing proposition, the games usually end up as an arms race to see who can build the largest and hardest to answer board position as fast as possible. Brazen Borrower ends up being a pretty clutch card in this meta because it sets back an opponent's Uro and adds to our own board position. RUG ends up being pretty well positioned in the Uro mirrors because between Uro, Brazen Borrower, Klothys, Red-Blasts and Sylvan Library, we have a lot of great tools to win Uro mirrors. For non-Uro mirrors, we have a pretty good gameplan of just trying to get opponents dead ASAP with Delver and Goyf.

Other things of note: Hexdrinker ends being pretty good. It's kind of like Uro, a mana-intensive hard-to-answer threat, but doesn't use the graveyard and can attack through convoluted board states. Spell Pierce gets played in the maindeck because we need more things against combo and there isn't any room for Veil of Summer in the sideboard. Also, it's pretty important to have another answer for Blood Moon. The deck cuts the 4th Wasteland for Taiga to make Uro more castable. Force of Vigor in the sideboard is a house. The card provides the same blowout potential in the same matchups that Null Rod did (Death and Taxes, TES, Urza-Echo) but also generates blowouts against Lands and Moon Prison. Since Uro is a card against Bridge from Below; with 3 Surgical Extraction in the sideboard, we have a pretty good graveyard-deck matchup. All in all, I would consider this list to be quite stock and is going to be difficult to improve upon.

With that said, I do have this wacky Noble Hierarch list I've been working on:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Klothys, God of Destiny
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

4 Daze
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will

3 Wasteland
1 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
2 Abrade
2 Force of Vigor
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Veil of Summer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blazing Volley

Basically I moved the Uro mid-range domination package (Uro, Klothys, Brazen Borrower) to the maindeck to free up room for the cards I wanted to play. With 3 Wastelands, a Life from the Loam acts as the 4th Wasteland. I really like playing with 4 Red-Blasts and I think Force of Vigor is just that good. Noble Hierarch really puts us ahead in the Uro arms race and can make Tarmogoyf large enough to attack into Uro. However, it is true that RUG already has the tools to grind out Uro mirrors without Noble Hierach and Hierach obviously has the drawback of not being a much of a threat on its own and prevents us from playing Rough/Tumble. I think what I miss most in this list is Hexdrinker which really shines against a deck like Maverick, which is apparently playing Shifting Ceratops these days.

Anyway, happy RUGing everyone.

[KobeBryan]

Well, it seems like for posterity's sake, someone should remark upon the state of RUG Delver after the Labe/Oko/Dreadhorde bannings. Call me old fashioned, but I just don't see the appeal of posting in a discord. Here is legend Ozymandias17's Top8 list from the MTGO challenge last Sunday:

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Hexdrinker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will

3 Wasteland
1 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Force of Vigor
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Klothys, God of Destiny

For anyone not in the know, in any kind of Uro mirror match, who ever gets to attack with Uro first ends up wildly ahead. Because trying to answer Uro directly tends to be a losing proposition, the games usually end up as an arms race to see who can build the largest and hardest to answer board position as fast as possible. Brazen Borrower ends up being a pretty clutch card in this meta because it sets back an opponent's Uro and adds to our own board position. RUG ends up being pretty well positioned in the Uro mirrors because between Uro, Brazen Borrower, Klothys, Red-Blasts and Sylvan Library, we have a lot of great tools to win Uro mirrors. For non-Uro mirrors, we have a pretty good gameplan of just trying to get opponents dead ASAP with Delver and Goyf.

Other things of note: Hexdrinker ends being pretty good. It's kind of like Uro, a mana-intensive hard-to-answer threat, but doesn't use the graveyard and can attack through convoluted board states. Spell Pierce gets played in the maindeck because we need more things against combo and there isn't any room for Veil of Summer in the sideboard. Also, it's pretty important to have another answer for Blood Moon. The deck cuts the 4th Wasteland for Taiga to make Uro more castable. Force of Vigor in the sideboard is a house. The card provides the same blowout potential in the same matchups that Null Rod did (Death and Taxes, TES, Urza-Echo) but also generates blowouts against Lands and Moon Prison. Since Uro is a card against Bridge from Below; with 3 Surgical Extraction in the sideboard, we have a pretty good graveyard-deck matchup. All in all, I would consider this list to be quite stock and is going to be difficult to improve upon.

With that said, I do have this wacky Noble Hierarch list I've been working on:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Klothys, God of Destiny
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Sylvan Library

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

4 Daze
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will

3 Wasteland
1 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
2 Abrade
2 Force of Vigor
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Veil of Summer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Blazing Volley

Basically I moved the Uro mid-range domination package (Uro, Klothys, Brazen Borrower) to the maindeck to free up room for the cards I wanted to play. With 3 Wastelands, a Life from the Loam acts as the 4th Wasteland. I really like playing with 4 Red-Blasts and I think Force of Vigor is just that good. Noble Hierarch really puts us ahead in the Uro arms race and can make Tarmogoyf large enough to attack into Uro. However, it is true that RUG already has the tools to grind out Uro mirrors without Noble Hierach and Hierach obviously has the drawback of not being a much of a threat on its own and prevents us from playing Rough/Tumble. I think what I miss most in this list is Hexdrinker which really shines against a deck like Maverick, which is apparently playing Shifting Ceratops these days.

Anyway, happy RUGing everyone.

I hate discord. You can't really read during your spare time.

[wuberg]

Well, it seems like for posterity's sake, someone should remark upon the state of RUG Delver after the Labe/Oko/Dreadhorde bannings. Call me old fashioned, but I just don't see the appeal of posting in a discord. …

Thanks so much for the write-up, truly appreciate it! Do you have any suggestions for a list sans Uro? I understand that an Uro list is probably the most powerful option nowadays, but to me, the beuaty of RUG was always connected to its extremely low mana curve.

[BKclassic]

Thanks so much for the write-up, truly appreciate it! Do you have any suggestions for a list sans Uro? I understand that an Uro list is probably the most powerful option nowadays, but to me, the beuaty of RUG was always connected to its extremely low mana curve.

I think I would take Ozy's list and cut Uros and probably a Forked Bolt for 2x Klothys and 2x Brazen Borrower. This gives you a strong anti-Uro package and you keep your grinding power against the other mid-range blue decks what with Klothys still powering up Sylvan Library and being a game-winner in general. You could play a low to the ground Stifle build with Hooting Mandrills, but the other blue decks are playing Strixes/Coatl's into Uro. I just don't think the blitz strategy is strong enough anymore to beat other mid-range blue decks. This frees up a bunch sideboard space, I would probably be looking at Hullbreacher/Narset and Karakas to keep up with those mid-range blue decks. Uro is a pretty good card but I think what I've described could work just fine, especially since Klothys sidesteps some of the Uro hate out there.

[OmniStrata]

Is there a new staple threat list for Temur Delver?

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Tarmogoyf

Was thinking of Replacing Goyf with Nimble Mongoose to lower the curve even further.
That Surveil mechanic is too good.