[Deck] Dredge

[Anusien]

How can you mathematically value something totally subjective?

Because it's not subjective. Each card does something specific and contributes a specific amount to the percentage of getting a keepable hand.

*I defined consistent as the ability to discard a dredger on turn 1 and cast a draw spell on either turn 1 or 2. Here's the full list of keepable hand fragments that can do this. So consistency here is defined as the chance to draw a hand that contain these combination of cards:
Dredger, Dredger, Faithless Looting, Lion’s Eye Diamond
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Careful Study, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Breakthrough, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy, Careful Study, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy, Breakthrough, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy, Cephalid Coliseum, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Faithless Looting, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Careful Study, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Breakthrough, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Cephalid Coliseum, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Careful Study, Careful Study, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, Cephalid Coliseum
Dredger, Careful Study, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum
Dredger, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum
Dredger, Faithless Looting, Winds of Change, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Putrid Imp/Cabal Therapy, Winds of Change, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Careful Study, Winds of Change, Rainbow Land
Dredger, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum
Dredger, Lion’s Eye Diamond, Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum

In terms of optimizing along these lines, Ichorid and Dread Return are interchangeable.

[HokusSchmokus]

It is totally subjective because that table there and the evaluation based on it are based on YOUR definitions of "good" in this deck.

[LeePerry]

It is totally subjective because that table there and the evaluation based on it are based on YOUR definitions of "good" in this deck.

it isn't only HIS definition of "good" in this deck, it is the definition of what this deck tries to do, and wants to do to win the game, namely: start dredging as fast as possible. Of course there will be situations where you will want to slowroll the dredge, like if your opponent plays a tormod's crypt on his first turn fe. But these situations are unaccountable for.

If you'd glance over the list of ideal opening hands you'll notice that they all allow you to start dredging by the draw step of your second turn at the latest. So if you take that as a ruler for consistency, then all you have to do is figure out all the different combinations of opening hands that will allow you to do so, and calculate the chance of having any one of those opening hands in your initial seven. (MATH)

If you want to claim that this is still subjective, then you probably want to change the ruler by which consistency is measured, (for example: I want have 10 2/2 zombies by turn 3) Then you have to figure out all the possible combinations of cards on the top of your deck (initial seven + whatever you draw/dredge) that will allow you to do that in the time frame of 3 turns (not withstanding shuffle effects), and figure out the probability that at any given time the top of your deck will have one of those combinations of cards in the right order. (MATH AGAIN)

Now of course if you would want to decide when to take a mulligan, or which strategy is the best to follow with this deck if your definition of consistency is to have X zombies by turn Y, good luck. It's easier and it makes more sense to define consistency on the actual goals of the deck and on information that you can get out of your opening hand, allowing you to consistently keep those hands that are "good" and to consistently mulligan those hands that might get you 10 zombies by turn 3 if the top cards of the deck are going your way...

Now Putrid Imp is mathematically Inferior to a Dredger if you follow the above list of ideal opening hands, just count how many times you need a dredger, and how many times you need an Imp or equivalent.

[Anusien]

It is totally subjective because that table there and the evaluation based on it are based on YOUR definitions of "good" in this deck.

You're right. How foolish of me to think that Dredging is what this deck wants to do. We should cut all the cards with Dredge for Brainstorm and Force of Will or something.

[HokusSchmokus]

That's not what I meant. But PImp +Dredger creates better hands than double Dredger or 1 Drawspell + Dredger. Being a house against 2/3 of the artifact hate we might face is a bonus.

[rxavage]

You can't dredge without a dredger in the graveyard, PImp is valuable for many reason but making an arbitrary little card matrix that doesn't show any "maths" isn't going to show this there are too many variables to consider.

[Anusien]

That's not what I meant. But PImp +Dredger creates better hands than double Dredger or 1 Drawspell + Dredger. Being a house against 2/3 of the artifact hate we might face is a bonus.

Sure. But the LEDless list I posted gets something like a 72% chance to get a hand that can discard and cast a draw spell. And the list I'm testing does even better. The whole point is: why settle for Putrid Imp plus nothing when you can have the whole burrito?

[mort-]

So, I was playing in GP Ghent the last two days. After being happy with the quadlaser (but not to 100%) and also Hollywoods list (also not 100%) I decided to throw together a pile that has the configuration of cards I'd like to have.

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
→ 12
4 Bridge from Below
→ 4
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
→ 4
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
1 Griselbrand
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
→ 22
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
→ 17
1 Darkblast
→ 1
→ → 60


Sideboard:

1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Nether Shadow
3 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
→ → 15

The list wasn't tested before the tournament (yay friday evening). Scrubbed out of the mainevent pretty fast (going 1-3 drop, winning against RUG, then losing against Merfolk, Elves and Loam with insane draws. Had pretty much all game 3's under control, but here comes the Crypt from the top).
Then played the 300€ Legacy sideevent, going 3-2 (playing against Goblins, I win game one, he mulligans to four without hate, rips Crypt from the top in the second turn after I dredged basicly everything -Narcomoebas and goes Lackey -> Siege Gang.
Guess I made a few mistakes because I was very tired, but still got incredible unlucky in both tournaments (if you want to cry with me, I could post some more of the situations ;D).
Well, another day, another tournament with a big number in its name, so 1500€ Legacy Championship it is.
Went 7-1-1, getting fifth of 400 - 500 players I think. Top8 (all judges + all players but one) wanted to split and just go home. So we had to play. Obv, I was paired against him (Bant, board with 3 Extractions, Relic and Crypt, 1 Ooze main).
He wins the roll, plays Hierarch, I darkblast it. He has turn two Ooze, I have Griselbrand and 9 Tokens.
Mulligan to six on game two, he starts with land, go. I therapy him, but get pierced. In his turn, he goes land, Zenith for 1, I cast Therapy on him again, hitting double Extraction and seeing Ooze and Land in his hand. He gets Ooze, I Firestorm Ooze and Hierarch away, start to get a Dredger into my yard and he topdecks Relic. Turns out his last card in hand was KotR also. So yeah, though luck again.
Game 3, I go to six and keep 2 Lands, 4 Drawspells. This might have been a mistake, as I do not find a Dredger until his T4 Ooze hits the table. Yeah, I don't know what hand he kept, but he didn't have a single piece of hate.
Well, taking 100€ store credit with me (worth about ~70€ at the store though :/) was still ok.

Few thought on the list: While Griselbrand was sometimes win more, he also won me some games. Elesh Norn is just incredible and the Firestorms were just godlike (had a starting hand with 3 Storms against Elves, he wasn't happy). All in all, I was pretty happy, having killed with each target at least ones (-Grisel, opps conceded most of the time). Sadly, I couldn't test the Faerie Macabres.

If you want, I can try to get a report from the top of my head.

Greetings,

Florian

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Hello,

I played the GP Ghent this weekend with the standard Quadlaser build. Here's a list against which decks I played:

Day 1:
Round 1: UW Terminus (2-1)
Round 2: Sneak Show (0-2)
Round 3: Dredge (2-0)
Round 4: GW Maverick (2-1)
Round 5: GW Maverick (2-1)
Round 6: Canadian (0-2)
Round 7: Sneak Show (2-1)
Round 8: Belcher (2-1)
Round 9: Sneak Show (2-0)
7-2-0

Day 2:
Round 10: Canadian (2-0)
Round 11: Canadian (2-0)
Round 12: Esper Blade (1-2)
Round 13: Canadian (2-1)
Round 14: Reanimator (2-1)
Round 15: MUD (2-0)
Round 16: Hypergenesis (1-2)
12-4-0

So, I placed 37th out of over 1.300 players, gaining $ 200 and, more important, one Pro Point, which is quite a nice result. I even think I'm the best placed Dredge player. Timo Schünemann, a friend of mine and inventor of the Quadlaser build, won the GP with ANT. This is also a deck that seems like fun.

I think I'll write a full tournament report in the couple of days.

[sperry023]

Congrats!

There were also two top 8 finishes at the SCG event yesterday:

Bloodghasts, Sun Titan/FKZ, Painterstone SB

Quadlazer with Ashen Ghoul SB

[joemauer]

Congrats!

There were also two top 8 finishes at the SCG event yesterday:

Bloodghasts, Sun Titan/FKZ, Painterstone SB

Quadlazer with Ashen Ghoul SB

Wonder if that was Que with the quadlazer list?
He mentioned he was going to bring it to SCG Las Vegas.

[Que]

Yeah. I top 8'd SCG Las Vegas.

My matches were as follows:

Round 1: Dream Halls (James ?) (2-0)
Round 2: Dredge (Jason B. Top 8) (2-0)
Round 3: Sneak & Show (Eddie ?) (2-1)
Round 4: U/W Miracles (Joe Lossett) (2-1)
Round 5: Enchantress (Tyrell Kizer Top 16) (2-0)
Round 6: Maverick (Jacob Koby Kory 2-0)
Round 7: Belcher (Joshua Wiitanen Top 8) (0-2) Got paired down and he had to play.
Round 8: ID with Brian Moss. My tie Brakers were in the high 70%s so I felt comfortable that I would be a 19 pointer that would make it in.

When Top 8 was announced I was 7th seed.

I'll probably write something later for this. I have a day off from work and I'm going to enjoy it.

@Brot. Godamn good show sir. 37th out of 1.300 players is nothing to scoff at. Congrats dude! Way to rep

[Michael Keller]

Congrats on the performances, gentlemen. Lots of big tournament action here this week and the D.C. Open next week.

[Final Fortune]

Sure. But the LEDless list I posted gets something like a 72% chance to get a hand that can discard and cast a draw spell. And the list I'm testing does even better. The whole point is: why settle for Putrid Imp plus nothing when you can have the whole burrito?

Because there's keepable hands outside of your matrix, primarily keepable hands based around Putrid Imp and Lion's Eye Diamond where you have a consistent discard/dredge outlet and an inevitable draw spell by turn X.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your set of assumptions, but there's a greater range of playable hands that require Putrid Imp than your matrix implies.

What list are you testing out of curiosity, I've been trying to get Pimpless Dredge to work forever and never had any luck, is that the direction you're moving in for your added consistency?

[joemauer]

On a seperate note I'm not too thrilled about the "no needed board" against maverick. Sure you'll have games when they durdle around and you just get there, but for the games where they have Scavenging ooze turn 2 with noble to eat something right away it becomes a much more daunting task. I suppose one can always mulligan aggressively into cabal therapy. But In the past I've liked Firestorm. I mean them opening with mother of runes will surely be a pain, but the fact that it still acts as an outlet means it retains usefulness.

I just read the SCG matchup with you against Maverick in the top four. What a bummer. Some kind of foreshadowing you wrote there.

[HokusSchmokus]

I just read the SCG matchup with you against Maverick in the top four. What a bummer. Some kind of foreshadowing you wrote there.

No. He could easily won both games if he would have mulliganed further down. Turn 1 PImp isn't going to cut it.

Still it's nice to see Quadlaser making its waves in the us:) Good Job!

[SWindolph]

I just read the SCG matchup with you against Maverick in the top four. What a bummer. Some kind of foreshadowing you wrote there.

Where can I find the coverage? Can you post a link?
Thanks in advance.

Greetings

Stephan

[Godmode]

Where can I find the coverage? Can you post a link?
Thanks in advance.

Greetings

Stephan

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...pgnt12/welcome

There you go.


By the way Brot_Ohne_Kruste, why did Timo said Dredge betrayed him (on his profile)?

[Gui]

By the way Brot_Ohne_Kruste, why did Timo said Dredge betrayed him (on his profile)?

Seems like he lost with it some times in a row, then he decided to play something else. Someone else could confirm this tho....

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Seems like he lost with it some times in a row, then he decided to play something else. Someone else could confirm this tho....

Yeah, that's right. Even though he played always good, the last tournaments ended something like 1-3-drop, 0-3-drop and 0-4-drop. I don't really remember, if there were any other bad results, but since May the deck really doesn't perform well for him.

@sperry023, Que and Hollywood: Thank you :).