I've been having the same thoughts about the 21st land and 4th Vortex, in my case I've been running a singleton Ensnaring Bridge, mainly just as a placeholder for now until I find a reasonable choice for the 60th card. I am not a huge backer on Vexing Devil, but how did you feel about it being your 60th card, would you rather have something else looking back, say you were to run the list tomorrow, your mainboard?Originally Posted by Nevarine
I actually believe that Price of Progress is very good against Imperial Painter, even under blood moon it will kill them easily with all their non-basics. I find most players do not know about that ruling being in favor of Price of Progress. Just having a Grim Lavamancer on line against that deck is insane, they have a horrible match up against burn it seems.
Have you thought about running Faeries? I find Reanimator our worst match up. I have actually been toying with the idea of Duplicant to deal with Iona and Sneak and Show match ups. Even with a Bridge in play, if they resolve an Iona, you still lose the game, because you can't play any of your spells, I have toyed with Dismember as well, but maybe it is best to just understand losing to that match is going to happen and devoting too much to it, is wrong.
Could you elaborate on your meaning behind usually never hitting a mother of runes unless you have a goblin guide hand?
I have some questions regarding your sideboard choices.
Do you favor Pyrostatic Pillar over Mindbreak Trap and why is that if you do?
Do you find Searing Blaze to be necessary in winning against the match ups you bring it in against or is it just an added bonus?
How important do you feel the Smash to Smithereens have been even though you are running 3 Vortex main?
Lastly, I would like to congratulate you on a wonderful showing, I do not play Burn because of budget, same as you. I love the deck and believe experience speaks more than the cards in your deck. I recently top 8'd a local monthly tournament with a mid 20s showing. I will write a small report if anyone is interested and you can find my list here: http://www.mythicgameselmira.com/For....php?item.51.5
Burn should never be a budget choice, is not a easy deck unlike the many people think. many friends of mine can't win a single match with Burn, they can win with delver, d&t or pox, but burn is out of their ability
and is a very fun
Nevarine, thank you for your report!
I intend to play Burn this weekend and had a few questions for you guys.
At this time I am favoring the fetchless manabase with 1 or 2 Barbarian Rings. Would you continue using 4x Grim Lavamancer anyway or swap them out? If swapping... what do you replace it with? Marauders?
Neither of you guys (Pettie and Nev) have Grave-Hate in your sideboard. Care to explain the reasoning?
Nevarine, can you talk further on Pyrostatic Pillar? It seems you brought it in against some decks I would never think to use it against (like Miracles).
Pettie, what were you packing Pithing Needle for? Nev had 1 Pyro... You have 2 Shushers and 4 REBs. Is that a local meta choice? Play-style choice?
What card got a spot in your sideboard since you moved a Bridge to the main deck?
Okay, lots of great questions!
JPettie-
Would I run vexing devil tomorrow? Yes. Is it correct? Still not sure. It had a great performance the few times I did cast it at the grand prix, always either trading up in card value or just being a strictly better lava spike. That being said I didn't face any deathrite shaman decks (board it out there).
Your definitely correct about price being good against painter. However, the cards I boarded in are better and painter usually runs about 8-10 basics as well. I would rather have flame rift be 100% 4 damage then price be 0-6 damage sometimes. Its more of a choice of playing the more consistent card.
Your final thoughts about reminator are correct in my opinion. Its one of our worst matchups and devoting very specific cards to hate it is not worth it. Also bridge is not the best against them but its won me games in a few reanimator matchups.
As to know when to kill mother of runes....imagine this scenario. You on the play with a goblin guide. Your opp goes turn 1 mom. By bolting the mother you allow yourself to setup the game where you can later bolt problematic thalias and continue to swing unblocked with goblin guide. It depends on the rest of your hand as well.
I love pryostatic pillar. Yes you can die to turn 1 or turn 2 kills on the draw against storm with it in your hand. But i have played too many storm matchups to know that mindbreak simply is hoping for too much. They usually have a probe and/or discard the turn they go off. As I stated in my report, I dont wanna be the reactive deck with burn. Make them answer you with pillar. My two storm opp's literally had physical reactions when I played it haha.
Searing blaze is not a win more but its not entirely necessary either. It simply gives you more insurance and helps games go more smoothly in your favor. Their are so many durdle creature decks right now in legacy that i feel like it is worth the inclusion.
On the other hand smash is more needed. 3 voretex's is usually not enough against lifegain cards (usually equipment). Not only that but I really like having an answer to chalice of the void. That card is a beating and will always be set to one first against the burn deck. Its a great catch all against alot of decks as well (shardless bug, affinty, mud, etc.)
Ace/Homebrew-
I have played the fetchless manabase with rings before (with and without grimlava). It is god awful and I would 100% recommend against it. Ring is the worst card for burn it lowers your consistency to fireblast and to have a stable manabase against wasteland. Keeping one landers is a great strength of the burn deck and having a hand of ring as your only land is disgustingly bad. If you cannot get fetches then lower the lavamancer count to 0-2 and replace them with vexing devil and/or marauders.
Pyrostatic pillar was my second favorite sideboard card after bridge. It helps against alot of your worst matchups and has random utility elsewhere. Why did i bring it in against miracles? They are a control deck that plays alot of cantrips. If each of their brainstorms now shocks them, then they have alot less time/ability to find answers to your burn.
Hi guys ...what do you think about this deck list ? 19 lands enough for the 3 vortex + 2 volcanic fallout ?
17 mountain
2 barbarian ring
4 vexing devil
4 goblin guide
2 volcanic fallout
4 lightning bolt
4 rift bolt
4 lava spike
4 chain lightning
4 price of progress
4 flame rift
4 fireblast
3 sulfuric vortex
Side
4 pyroblast
3 pirostatic pillar
3 smash to smithereens
2 ensnaring bridge
3 faerie macabre
Thanks all.
I will forever favor the fetch burn, Grim Lavamancer flat out wins games for us. I would be careful about how many Grims you run without fetches, I do enjoy myself a Hellspark Elemental over Marauders, but others may think different, and with Deathrite around it may be the wrong choice. I did not have graveyard hate because I sort of know most of the people in the room when I play there and I didn't see many graveyard decks, so it was more of a meta choice. I was packing Vexing Shusher and Pithing for the Counterbalance matchup, people seem to play that a lot where I am at, along with storm, I actually have a pretty bad meta to be playing Burn in, but I love the deck so it doesn't ward me away. I think I tend to play more of an interactive style of burn with my sideboard, I have not been disappointed as of yet with 4 REBs, they do really well against a lot of the blue decks along with stopping Sneak and Show from can-tripping and Show and Telling. I run 2 Pithing Needles because they can be all-stars in a lot of match ups, and never have been bad for me. I threw in a Sulfur Elemental because I saw some Death and Taxes around and it can really beat their plan overall, that was the open spot I used with Ensnaring in the main, I am still toying with a 60th card, but I like the Ensnaring right now.Nevarine, thank you for your report!
I intend to play Burn this weekend and had a few questions for you guys.
At this time I am favoring the fetchless manabase with 1 or 2 Barbarian Rings. Would you continue using 4x Grim Lavamancer anyway or swap them out? If swapping... what do you replace it with? Marauders?
Neither of you guys (Pettie and Nev) have Grave-Hate in your sideboard. Care to explain the reasoning?
Nevarine, can you talk further on Pyrostatic Pillar? It seems you brought it in against some decks I would never think to use it against (like Miracles).
Pettie, what were you packing Pithing Needle for? Nev had 1 Pyro... You have 2 Shushers and 4 REBs. Is that a local meta choice? Play-style choice?
What card got a spot in your sideboard since you moved a Bridge to the main deck?
I tend to stay away from Vexing, and down to 8 creatures because of Deathrite, Grim defeats it in a fight and that's the way I like it, I don't want them using my creatures to lose the game for me. I actually rarely ever board out Flame Rift, I personally believe it is the reason the deck works, it curves perfectly, and is one of my favorite cards in the deck. I find Pithing Needle to be good against Painter decks as well, but the match up is already hugely in our favor, so sideboarding against it can be almost anything good in different forms of hate. I'm on the border when it comes to Pyrostatic Pillar and Mindbreak Trap, I hate to lose a game turn 1-2 because I have a Pyrostatic Pillar in my hand, but I do believe it has good uses against other decks where Mindbreak Trap may not be so ideal. It can be pretty devastating against Elves as well, but I've Mindbreak'd Elves players before and won games because of it. It is an internal war on those 2 combo hate cards for me, and may always be one, and I always value input on either side. I moved the smashes out because there seems to be a lack of the amount of stoneforge decks around lately, but I may move them back in just because of their versatility.
I forgot to ask you before about your 11/9 land split and whether you had a story behind the reasoning?
Do you have any secret sideboard tech you've acquired over the years playing burn?
I know that I've found some small little things that may find their way into the meta currently. Feel free to argue with or ask me anything you'd like going forward, I value all input from experienced point of views. This thread has actually been pretty slow lately and I appreciate the presence you've made here.
I am not sure what you are running the Fallouts main for, could you give me a reasoning behind that choice?
I would suggest at least 20 Mountains when you run Sulfuric Vortex. If you can afford to go fetches, I would suggest that over Barbarian Ring. As for the sideboard, I would consider exchanging something to put in a 3rd Bridge, Bridge is amazing and people forget about its existence now and then. If I had to run fetchless burn tomorrow, I probably wouldn't even run Barbarian Ring in the deck, but that is because of my personal experience in getting Wasteland'd because I had one and losing a game to a card that our deck shouldn't lose to.
Glad I can be of help.
In terms of the 11/9 split, it did arise over time. I found that often matches are just a race and life is important. Stifle is a real card as well. I played 6 delver decks that all had stifle and had it catch a few fetches (some hands just can't play around the card). In the end its really a minor thing and as long as you have 10-12 I think your fine. Just remember to play your lands very differently though if you board in searing blaze.
Testing confirmed your advice! Lavamancer is better than Devil, therefore fetches.
I wanted to ignore Stifle and play with Mountains. In testing, Wasteland on Ring when lands were scarce sucked... And Lavamancer would have done more damage over the course of the game than the immediate 4 from Devil.
Good advice guys! Thank you.
Hi guys,
Below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
2 Sulfuric Vortex
18 Mountain
Without fetch lands, Grim Lavamancer can be pretty lackluster in most circumstances, I would suggest lowering the count to 0-2 Grim Lavamancers and adding in Hellspark Elemental or Keldon Marauders based on what you would rather have, some would suggest Vexing Devil, and that is up to the player themselves to choose, I prefer to stay away from Vexing Devil for now. Gitaxian Probe can be very good, but you don't always replace it with a damage spell by drawing, and if it gets countered, its pretty bad for you, taking 2 and not doing any damage or getting any benefit from it, although if it does find warrant in your opponents mind to counter it, maybe it just opens another line for you to deal lethal because they wasted a counter. I have been personally testing Gitaxian Probe and I am still on the fence about its use, and the only card I would even consider removing to place it in the deck would be Rift Bolt. This could be very wrong, but sometimes a Rift Bolt can be a turn late and the worst top deck you could pull in a game you had the win in. I would suggest that you add in some number of lands, either go to 19 or 20, to support the curve of playing Sulfuric Vortex, but since you are only running 2, and I prefer 3 myself, I may be wrong in adding lands to the deck. Overall, the deck is not completely off, it is burn in essence, but I would be careful with the Grim Lavamancers in a deck without fetch lands, 4 seems like a lot.
On a side note:
This is a sideboard I've been playing with lately, and plan to test, if anyone has any opinions on it, please let me know.
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Pyroclasm
I am not sure if I want Volcanic Fallout or Pyroclasm to be the 15th card, also keep in mind that my 3rd Ensnaring Bridge is mainboard right now.
I had a very poor day using Burn over the weekend, but that was entirely due to my inexperience with the deck. The deck itself felt very powerful in the current meta and I enjoyed the games I played, which is not typical when I am losing. I believe my problem was over-sideboarding. I tend to do that when starting out with a deck. I see sideboard cards with application in the match and want to fit them all in...
I used Nevarine's 75, only changing 2 cards in the sideboard
(-Pyroblast, -Pyrostatic Pillar; +Sulfur Elemental, +Sulfuric Vortex)
I am sold on Pillar! I loved swapping Vortex out for Pillar against combo and RUG. I learned the hard way that sticking a 2nd Pillar is NOT a good idea...
I would cut the Vexing Devil from the main 60, although I admit I am still unsure what should take its place. Maybe Shard Volley? I would also cut the 4th Vortex I shoved into the sideboard.
Questions!!Scenario:
- Is Deathrite Shaman a 'must kill' creature for us? I am guessing it is...
- Other than S+T and Reanimator, what matches do you bring Bridge in? What do you take out?
- When boarding in Smash to Smithereens and Searing Blaze, what do you take out?
Against Death and Taxes, you have a Lavamancer and X number of Bolts in your hand. You have a Lavamancer on board with fodder in the bin. Opponent has a Revoker naming Lavamancer and more than 10 life. Do you Bolt the Revoker to enable the Lavamancers or throw damage at face?
What does the Shattering Spree do for you? I understand how it gets around CotV@1, but in that case, you are still spendingbut you do not get the added benefit of 3 damage to the opponent. Otherwise I appreciate the diversity for testing out a variety of options.
Looking for everyone's opinion here: Anger of the Gods
Is this new card better than the other sweepers we have (Pyroclasm and Volcanic Fallout)? Is the exile clause (to stop lifegain with DRS) + no face-damage better than uncounterable + 2 to the face?
See my comments below in bold.
Like artifact hate, I prefer sweepers that can damage the opponent. Anger of the Gods doesn't do this. Go for Volcanic Fallout or Flamebreak instead.I had a very poor day using Burn over the weekend, but that was entirely due to my inexperience with the deck. The deck itself felt very powerful in the current meta and I enjoyed the games I played, which is not typical when I am losing. I believe my problem was over-sideboarding. I tend to do that when starting out with a deck. I see sideboard cards with application in the match and want to fit them all in...
I used Nevarine's 75, only changing 2 cards in the sideboard
(-Pyroblast, -Pyrostatic Pillar; +Sulfur Elemental, +Sulfuric Vortex)
I am sold on Pillar! I loved swapping Vortex out for Pillar against combo and RUG. I learned the hard way that sticking a 2nd Pillar is NOT a good idea...
I would cut the Vexing Devil from the main 60, although I admit I am still unsure what should take its place. Maybe Shard Volley? I would also cut the 4th Vortex I shoved into the sideboard.
I believe that Devil and Shard Volley are both sub-optimal for Burn. What else is in your list?
Questions!!Scenario:
- Is Deathrite Shaman a 'must kill' creature for us? I am guessing it is...
An early DRS is a must kill. Use a bolt spell and get it off the board. You might be able to ignore a late DRS if you are within striking distance of winning. But yeah, the prevalence of DRS makes Burn a worse deck in Legacy.- Other than S+T and Reanimator, what matches do you bring Bridge in? What do you take out?
- When boarding in Smash to Smithereens and Searing Blaze, what do you take out?
What you take out depends on your specific matchup. What deck are you playing against? You don't always take the same cards out for artifact hate or whatever else. If your opponent's deck has few non-basic lands, take your Price of Progress out. If they don't run many small creatures, take out your Lavamancers.
Against Death and Taxes, you have a Lavamancer and X number of Bolts in your hand. You have a Lavamancer on board with fodder in the bin. Opponent has a Revoker naming Lavamancer and more than 10 life. Do you Bolt the Revoker to enable the Lavamancers or throw damage at face?
If you have enough gas in your hand to get your opponent to zero life, you can ignore the Revoker and aim what you have at your opponent's head. If you don't have enough gas, kill the Revoker with a bolt spell and hopefully your Lavamancer will live long enough to help get you there.
What does the Shattering Spree do for you? I understand how it gets around CotV@1, but in that case, you are still spending
I prefer Smash to Smithereens because it damage players as well as destroys artifacts, something that Spree does not do. Smash gets around COTV@1 and kills it, while damaging the opponent. The only decks that Spree is better against are those that run a lot of artifacts such as Affinity or MUD, but those decks don't see a lot of play, so you should sideboard Smash to Smithereens instead.
Looking for everyone's opinion here: Anger of the Gods
Is this new card better than the other sweepers we have (Pyroclasm and Volcanic Fallout)? Is the exile clause (to stop lifegain with DRS) + no face-damage better than uncounterable + 2 to the face?
I see more than others do because I know where to look.
It seems to me that the legacy metagame has shifted heavily in favor of fair decks. That means that one of my favorite decks is finally well positioned in the metagame! Opinions on Boros or Burn? I feel like all the fair decks are busy trying to metagame against each other with TNN and all that and i'm just sitting here throwing lightning bolts.
Is there anything that boros offers that's better than straight burn? I feel like going dual lands and creatures opens us up for removal and wasteland. More importantly, I think with the emergence of TNN based fair decks, having creatures is suboptimal because TNN is a ridiculous blocker.
On the flipside, Steppe Lynx is ridiculous. I feel like using Steppe Lynx makes removal spells from fair decks like STP, bolt, or abrupt decay that much more relevant, but at the same time, the explosive power steppe lynx provides is really good. Mono red burn, my current list, averages a turn 4-5 kill. With Steppe Lynx, the goldfish is faster by roughly 0.5 - 1 turns. But is it worth the added enemy removal being useful....and going white opens the deck up to wasteland..decisions decisions.
Anyways, here is my current list.
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
4 Price of Progress
4 Boros Charm
3 Fireblast
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Plains
3 Mountain
If you are smart enough and use your fetchlands wise then Wasteland becomes irelevant against Boros.
Just play 3 Plateaus and 11/12 fetchlands (all on red, including 4 Arid Mesa) and you can laugh at Wasteland.
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Dragonstorm
I'm in a bit of a budget conundrum, right now I'm only running 4 fetchlands (I intend to acquire more, just a budget issue atm) so running 4 Grim Lavamancers is probably exacerbating the suboptimal nature of my burn. Given the prevalence of Deathrite Shaman, I don't want to go with Hellspark Elemental, which leaves Keldon Marauders.
This is my deck before adjustments:
4x Bloodstained Mire
16x Mountain
4x Goblin Guide
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Sulfuric Vortex
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Price of Progress
4x Flame Rift
4x Fireblast
This is the adjustment I was thinking of making:
-2x Grim Lavamancer
-1x Sulfuric Vortex
+3x Keldon Marauders
Giving up that fourth Vortex is what's troubling me the most.
I still believe Mr Pettie's version is the most optimal. My only preference is running split of 2 Vortexes and 2 Skullcracks (instead of his 3 Vortexes and maindecked Bridge) as I find overabundance of Sulfuric's troublesome in the first few turns (which are the most important). Skullcracks serve as a surprise and instant, one-turn vortex. In worst scenario they are just a bit more expensive Spike.<
Also sb is a completely personal choice. I run 3bridges, 3macabres, 3rebs, 3smashes and 3fallouts but would like to hear opinions regarding needles and shushers. do we still need gobbos?
Your list sounds very solid. Do you mind posting the full list?
Here it is:
//Creature (8)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
//Enchantment (2)
2 Sulfuric Vortex
//Instant (14)
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Skullcrack
//Sorcery (16)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
//Land (20)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
8 Mountain
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Volcanic Fallout
I'm happy with main list as the deck is as aggressive as it can be. Still toying with sb though.
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