Redcap would be a great choice in that slot, but you could also look at dropping Sharpshooter for him as well. Other cards to consider would be both third SGC and Rakka Mar, whom people seem to have forgotten about recently.
Both in tournaments and testing, I have found Murderous Redcap to be a very effective card. The surprise factor alone of tutoring up a Murderous Redcap in a legacy tournament is enough to get many players to pause.Originally Posted by Zupponn
I think I cut a 3Sphere for Redcap and possibly the Sharpshooter for an additional red source since I am upping the curve and red requirement. I will then shift the sharpshooter to the board for something.
I built the Werewolf version of this deck but I'm switching to the Goblin build. I'm having trouble with Nic Fit mainly because Veteran Explorer dodges Blood Moon pretty well. Is there anything I can board against it or is it just one of the bad matchups you have to accept? Or (more likely) am I doing something wrong? I got into Legacy about a month ago.
I was running the goblin build at SCG Indy and got destroyed by Nic Fit. My opponent received a game 1 loss for failing to de-sideboard and I still lost two games to him. Granted I had to mulligan down to 4 in one game, but it strikes me as a rather difficult match-up because they run so many basic lands.
I faced a Nic Fit player as well in Indy. I was able to lock them out early due to Chalice on 1 and went all-in on the quick Settler/Kiki lock. It's not a favorable matchup by any means, but it is manageable.
Welcome to legacy bra.
Nic Fit isn't a matchup that I have too much familiarity with, but for sideboarding I think that I'd bring out the Blood Moons for more threats. Koth seems pretty good against them, both dodging Deed and Liliana. Rakka Mar is good here. Anything that lets you go grindier seems like the way to go also. Focusing on getting SGC out seems like a strong plan and this feels like a Settler matchup, so I'd bring mine out of my sideboard. An early Rabblemaster could also close the game before they set up anything.
I know that's a lot of rambling, but those are my thoughts. The Goblin build is the version of DS that can go the grindiest, so it seems like it would have the best chance vs a deck like Nic Fit.
I second Zupponn's ramblings and will add a few of my own.
CotV @ 1 is probably our strongest turn 1 play. Rabblemaster is also probably very strong.
Phyrexian Revoker is very good in this matchup because it shuts off Pernicious Deed.
It is worth knowing that if they stick a Veteran Explorer or sneak one in with GSZ, you cannot prevent the Cabal Therapy flashback cost of sacrificing a creature with CotV @ 1. The Therapy will be countered, but sac'ing a creature is part of the cost and happens anyway.
But yeah, board out Blood Moons and probably 3spheres if you have more relevant stuff in the sideboard.
I've been moving cards around to try and come up with a nice balance between consistent gameplan and toolbox utility.
After going 2-2 at my local weekly and adjusting the list slightly, it looks like this:
Mana
11 Mountains
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Prison
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
Creatures
4 Moggcatcher
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Settler
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Removal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Sudden Demise
------------
Sideboard
1 Goblin Settler
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Stingscourger
3 Koth of the Hammer
1 Trinisphere
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Anarchy
3 ???
My experience says 1 toolbox goblin is sufficient as Kiki-Jiki is effectively a 2nd copy for anything. My experience also says Goblin Rabblemaster is the workhorse of this deck and Siege-Gang Commander is more of a high-impact bomb than a must-have win-con. If I have a Goblin Rabblemaster and a Moggcatcher on board, I am more likely to tutor a 2nd Rabblemaster (or Kiki) than search for a Siege-Gang. I put Settler back in the maindeck because she wins any game where the opponent stalls on mana or has a single copy of their basic lands.
I am fairly happy with my maindeck, but need to work on the sideboard...
Anarchy is the most recent addition. I keep losing to Absolute Law.
I'm finally interested in dropping the Stone Rains. That gives me 3 spots to consider.
Zupponn and Blastoderm, would you mind posting the lists you have been using most recently?
I haven't played this deck in a while (I've been testing brews lately) but I read the thread every time it's on the first page. My list is currently the following:
4 Moggcatcher
3 SGC
1 Tuktuk scrapper
3 Rakka Mar
4 Hound of Griselbrand (my meta is littered with BUG + decks with liliana which is extremely frustrating to play against)
3 Sudden Shock
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 cotv
4 3sphere
4 SSG
3 chrome mox
8 sol lands
11 mountain
SB:
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Koth of the Hammer
3 Tormod's Crypt
Well, my list hasn't really changed much since my Top 16:
4 Moggcatcher
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Rakka Mar
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Feldon of the Third Path
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
1 Umezawa's Jitte
11 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
Sideboard:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Anarchy
2 Koth of the Hammer
2 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Settler
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
I haven't done much testing with this list, but in theory I like Feldon more than SoFI. I haven't been too impressed with equipment lately, so one or both of those slots is up in the air right now. For the sideboard, I've dumped Sharpshooter for Settler and an Anarchy for a Pyrokinesis. I've also been pondering dropping the second Stingscourger for something else. Dualcaster Mage has been on my mind lately as I think we could get away with running a singleton somewhere. The number of cards he hits is sort of silly:
Duress
Thoughtseize
Cabal Therapy
Hymn to Tourach
Force of Will
Daze
Entreat the Angels
Brainstorm
Ponder
Preordain
Dig Through Time
Lightning Bolt
Punishing Fire
Green Sun's Zenith (Board in Boartusk Liege?)
Swords to Plowshares
Reanimate
And that's just a fraction of the spells that he could hit. Some of those like Reanimate and Entreat the Angels almost sound like blowouts.
Thanks guys!
Thanks again! It is helpful for me to see where we differ.
Blastoderm - It appears you have not tried out Goblin Rabblemaster yet?
Zupponn - Looks like you overload on threats maindeck and board into removal if needed?
How reliant are you guys on using SGC's ability as removal?
Between SGC, Jitte, and Redcap, that gives me 5 ways to kill creatures, and then if you add Moggcatcher because he can fetch Redcap that makes 9. I don't really find myself lookong for more very often.
Most of the time SGC shoots at their face.
I'm quite reliant on it as I always chump+shoot against goyf/batterskull/jitte. I haven't tried Rabblemaster yet... too many deathrite shaman / stoneforge decks in my meta.Thanks guys!
Thanks again! It is helpful for me to see where we differ.
Blastoderm - It appears you have not tried out Goblin Rabblemaster yet?
Zupponn - Looks like you overload on threats maindeck and board into removal if needed?
How reliant are you guys on using SGC's ability as removal?
The sudden shocks are in the main as delver/stoneforge are the most popular decks at the moment. Koth used to be there when Miracles was everywhere.
Split the finals of a local monthly today... Played vs all the basics :(
R1: MUD (why me??), lose 1-2
R2: Miracles, win 2-1
R3: Enchantress (oh god..) lose 0-2
R4: Merfolk (really??) win 2-1
R5: Junk (finally some nonbasics) win 2-1
Quarters: Food Chain win 2-0
Semis: Deathblade (with green) win 2-1
My list was the one mentioned in Ace's summary. Sudden Shock was awesome all day! Hound of Griselbrand was amazing as well vs Deathblade, Junk and Merfolk. Definitely keeping 4.
Rakka Mar was insane...I didnt draw many moggcatchers for some reason today but she helped finish most of my games. Hardcasting siege-gangs was also very common and usually game-ending. Three SGC is a good number.
My sb was:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Koth of the Hammer
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Anarchy
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Phyrexian Revoker
Going forward I might put tuktuk scrapper #2 in the SB. Trinisphere was bad but only because I didn't play against what I was expecting to. Usually very bad vs anything midrange but great vs miracles and delver.
My list is mostly based off of Ace's.
Maindeck
Mana
11x Mountain
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Chrome Mox
4x Simian Spirit Guide
Hate
4x Blood Moon
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere
Wincon
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
4x Moggcatcher
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Koth of the Hammer
1x Krenko, Mob Boss (have not gotten to cast him yet, will probably cut him)
Other
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sudden Demise
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard
4x Pithing Needle (I have considered running Revoker, but one store I go to has a LOT of Lands players)
3x Stone Rain
2x Sudden Demise (insanely powerful)
1x Koth of the Hammer
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Tuktuk Scrapper
1x Trinisphere
1x Murderous Redcap
1x Stingscourger (fun fact: if you look at his art real closely, he is wielding a Man o' War)
Report
Round 1: Win
Was against a Jeskai Ascendancy deck. Basically, when I had the hate, I won. When I didn't, I lost.
Game 1, my opponent got really greedy and spewed out a ton of tokens with Young Pyromancer. I Sudden Demise for 1, then after a few turns he scoops.
I think I mulled to 5 game 2 into a hand that had very little gas. Opponent eventually got 3x Fatestitcher and 2x Jeskai Ascendancy and I scooped.
In the third game, the opponent fetched for a basic Island vs my hand that had City of Traitors, SSG, Blood Moon, a couple Mountain and a Rabblemaster. I was rushing the Moon out expecting it to eat a Force so I could drop Rabblemaster next turn, but it resolved. Turns out my opponent had kept a hand with multiple Wear//Tear but fetched an Island instead of a Plains, so I basically autowon that one.
Round 2: Lose
Was against D&T.
Game 1 was epic. My opponent was cracking jokes the whole time, like "YOU KILLED MY MOM!!!!" when I killed her Mother of Runes, then "YOU KILLED MY MOM AGAIN!!!" when I killed a second one. When she played a Phyrexian Revoker and named Koth of the Hammer, I was like "whoa, this is canon" because both of the cards were from Scars block. I can't remember exactly what happened because we were both laughing half the time at our lame jokes, but at one point I shot the Revoker with a Jitte activation, ultimated Koth, then it was GG after that.
Game 2, I'm pretty sure I messed up. I played a turn 1 Chalice on 1 when my hand had the support for a Chalice on 2 the next turn. I have the feeling that Chalice on 2 is much, much more powerful against this deck than Chalice for 1. Also I feel should have boarded out the moons for Stone Rain/Pithing Needle. The moons and chalices didn't really do anything against my opponent, and Needle shuts off cards like Mom, Sword of Fire and Ice, Batterskull, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.
I don't really remember Game 3.
Round 3: Win
Was against RUG Delver. I don't remember the games themselves too well. At one point, my opponent casted Stifle on my Moggcatcher while I had a Trinisphere and Chalice on 1 in play. By the time I noticed, they had already drawn a card. I need to learn to be more deliberate in my play. I STILL GOT THERE THOUGH, got back-to-back Siege-Gangs, gummed up the board, drew a Jitte and it was basically over after that.
Game 2, opponent had Turn 1 Delver and my hand was all hate and no threats or removal. I think I ought to mulligan hands with no threats when I'm on the draw vs a tempo strategy.
I don't remember much of Game 3. At one point, opponent casts Rough while he has two 4/5 Goyfs vs my board of Magus of the Moon, Moggcatcher, Rabblemaster and a token equipped with a Jitte and a Sword. I tutor up Murderous Redcap in response, remove some counters from the Jitte and he has nothing vs my Little Goblins That Could. It was over from there.
Round 4: Draw
Opponent agreed to an ID. Got ice cream with my friend who went 1-2 drop and wanted to go. I got $15 in store credit for going 2-1-1.
Overall feel:
This deck feels a lot more powerful than the Werewolf version. Dropping a Rabblemaster and getting in for some beats feels a lot better than sitting there waiting for my Hanweir Watchkeep to flip, which it rarely did because my meta is full of decks packed with cantrips. I don't even miss the Cavern of Souls because opponents are usually countering my hate and not my threats. It was only good against BUG Delver, basically. I also really like the equipment because they make Simian Spirit Guide a live draw and are insane with all the token generation. I have a Goblin Settler coming in the mail this week and I can't wait to make people scoop to Kiki-Jiki copying Settler every turn.
Questions: When do I board in Stone Rain? Is it good vs D&T?
Last edited by Morzas; 02-25-2015 at 03:27 AM.
Congrats!
The metagame at Redcap's Corner in Philadelphia was flooded with Miracles for months and Stone Rain is insanely good in that matchup. The room has changed from 4-6 Miracle players in a room of ~25 to only 1 or 2, so I recently cut the Stone Rains for grave hate. Unless my opponent was playing a Deathrite Shaman deck, I would also board in the land destruction whenever I had dead cards in the match up, or otherwise had few ways to interact with my opponent (Show and Tell).
I initially thought the Stone Rains would be good against D&T. Actual gameplay seemed to prove otherwise. While discussing the match up after rounds, it looks like our best bet is to go creature heavy in games 2 and 3. D&T is also a mana denial deck and they have Vials and a lower curve. If we try to fight them on that axis we will be outclassed most of the time. I would consider boarding out your Koths and some number of Blood Moons/Magus for the creatures in your board and the extra Sudden Demises.
I would also reconsider Phyrexian Revoker!
It can name Mox Diamond and Engineered Explosives against Lands. Blood Moon should take care of the rest. Otherwise it is another creature that is excellent against D&T (so many things you can name) and it carries equipment just as good as a Spirit Guide. You also will have CotV@2 much less often than CotV@1.
Enjoy using Goblin Settler!
To crush Miracles (and other UW/r control decks with basics like golddigger) I used to SB 2x Boil and 3x Goblin Assault (and had 3 Koth Maindeck). Now I don't really need/want to pack this much hate for one matchup. I tend to be favored anyways even if Blood Moon doesn't do much. It can screw them over if you land it early though as they won't have WW for Entreat the angels which is the scariest card in the deck.Congrats!
The metagame at Redcap's Corner in Philadelphia was flooded with Miracles for months and Stone Rain is insanely good in that matchup. The room has changed from 4-6 Miracle players in a room of ~25 to only 1 or 2, so I recently cut the Stone Rains for grave hate. Unless my opponent was playing a Deathrite Shaman deck, I would also board in the land destruction whenever I had dead cards in the match up, or otherwise had few ways to interact with my opponent (Show and Tell).
I initially thought the Stone Rains would be good against D&T. Actual gameplay seemed to prove otherwise. While discussing the match up after rounds, it looks like our best bet is to go creature heavy in games 2 and 3. D&T is also a mana denial deck and they have Vials and a lower curve. If we try to fight them on that axis we will be outclassed most of the time. I would consider boarding out your Koths and some number of Blood Moons/Magus for the creatures in your board and the extra Sudden Demises.
I would also reconsider Phyrexian Revoker!
It can name Mox Diamond and Engineered Explosives against Lands. Blood Moon should take care of the rest. Otherwise it is another creature that is excellent against D&T (so many things you can name) and it carries equipment just as good as a Spirit Guide. You also will have CotV@2 much less often than CotV@1.
Enjoy using Goblin Settler!
Anarchy, Sudden Shock and Goblin Sharpshooter are all great against D&T.
Thank you for the advice, I will make some changes once I get my Settler.
I usually bring in both Anarchy and Pyrokinesis against D&T. Murderous Redcap is really good against them as well. My plan is to kill their things. Without their things they die. Take care with your manabase though. Wasteland or Port can destroy you if you aren't careful.
Miracles seems like an odd matchup to me. I've had games where I've blown them out, games where I've been blown out, and super grindy games that have gone both ways. I like going grindy against them and T1 Rabblemaster on the play is good even if it gets STPed next turn. I once had the goblin token left behind deal somewhere around 6-8 damage because I just kept dropping lock pieces instead of threats and my opponent probably didn't want to Terminus or Swords the little guy. He was totally value. Koth is really strong versus them as well. I keep mine in the sideboard, but they are GG many times if they hit the board.
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