All B/R update speculation.

[Ace/Homebrew]

They could follow that up with banning the original dual lands...

Think about if that happens though.

You're telling me players who spent hundreds acquiring duals will react positively to having them banned, simply because WotC wants them to rebuy duals for the format they've been playing for years? Not gonna happen!

I've noticed it too, but I've noticed it's more of a resigned acceptance of Modern's existence.

Yeah, no different than calling it Slutty Delver or Jetski Stoneblade or Assban Midrange.

[iamajellydonut]

Slutty Delver

This is still my favorite. We tried to get my friend to write it on his decklist at the Open, but he got scared he might get in trouble.

[MGB]

I anticipate that in 5 years Modern will be the format most people play. Legacy and Vintage will still exist but sanctioned tournaments will occur only in Eternal Weekend / Eternal Extravaganza style events.

Fortunately I live on the East coast, so I'll still get to jam sanctioned eternal cardboard 2 or 3 times a year.

Honestly, Modern seems like it is becoming an interesting format. It's not quite there yet, but a 5 year deeper card pool can very easily get it there. I've also noticed a change in attitude amongst most of the Legacy players (myself included) towards Modern. Instead of "I hate Modern!!!1!!1! ", I hear "I don't play, but I check out decklists and results".

As someone who plays both Modern and Legacy extensively...

Modern will probably never approach the depth and intricacy that Legacy provides me. The problem with Modern is that everything follows the same linear progression as your typical Standard or Block game, just sped up a little bit faster.

The unique thing about Legacy and Vintage, for me, always was that there were ways to cheat the normal linear progression of mana and cards. That's what makes these games so interesting - mana and card advantage generation creates swings in gameplay that add strategy and depth and unique flavor. When you have a format mostly bereft of free counterspells and faster mana generation (outside of Tron-lands in Modern, which might even get banned soon), most games generally devolve into "slam your fatty, check for removal, cast removal, slam another fatty". Or if the format is large enough to support combo, it just becomes a goldfish race with little interaction outside of specific hate cards.

[Admiral_Arzar]

As someone who plays both Modern and Legacy extensively...

Modern will probably never approach the depth and intricacy that Legacy provides me. The problem with Modern is that everything follows the same linear progression as your typical Standard or Block game, just sped up a little bit faster.

The unique thing about Legacy and Vintage, for me, always was that there were ways to cheat the normal linear progression of mana and cards. That's what makes these games so interesting - mana and card advantage generation creates swings in gameplay that add strategy and depth and unique flavor. When you have a format mostly bereft of free counterspells and faster mana generation (outside of Tron-lands in Modern, which might even get banned soon), most games generally devolve into "slam your fatty, check for removal, cast removal, slam another fatty". Or if the format is large enough to support combo, it just becomes a goldfish race with little interaction outside of specific hate cards.

I started playing Modern again earlier this year (had been out for years as my local scene had died due to the second round of bannings). Then I moved somewhere where there is actually Modern, and I've been enjoying the format. While the power level and intricacy is (in most cases) dramatically lower than Legacy, the format is very diverse and there's still plenty of room for interesting decks. The Unstorm/Pyromancer deck I've been piloting lately is at a similar level of intricacy to most combo I've played in Legacy albeit a little slower. I will again stress the diversity of the format - there isn't a dominant shell like in Legacy which means you never know what you'll end up playing against.

[Lord Seth]

As someone who plays both Modern and Legacy extensively...

Modern will probably never approach the depth and intricacy that Legacy provides me. The problem with Modern is that everything follows the same linear progression as your typical Standard or Block game, just sped up a little bit faster.

The unique thing about Legacy and Vintage, for me, always was that there were ways to cheat the normal linear progression of mana and cards. That's what makes these games so interesting - mana and card advantage generation creates swings in gameplay that add strategy and depth and unique flavor. When you have a format mostly bereft of free counterspells and faster mana generation (outside of Tron-lands in Modern, which might even get banned soon), most games generally devolve into "slam your fatty, check for removal, cast removal, slam another fatty". Or if the format is large enough to support combo, it just becomes a goldfish race with little interaction outside of specific hate cards.

Uh... why?

I know people joke about bans being gratuitous in Modern, but there is absolutely no reason to expect a ban on the Tron lands. The deck isn't dominant, the deck can't win quickly, there's no logistics issues like Eggs, and pretty much no one's clamoring for a ban on it. Where in the world did you get the idea the Tron lands are in any danger?

[plowshares]

This is still my favorite. We tried to get my friend to write it on his decklist at the Open, but he got scared he might get in trouble.

I've been writing Tumor Delver on my decklists for almost a year now.

[MGB]

Uh... why?

I know people joke about bans being gratuitous in Modern, but there is absolutely no reason to expect a ban on the Tron lands. The deck isn't dominant, the deck can't win quickly, there's no logistics issues like Eggs, and pretty much no one's clamoring for a ban on it. Where in the world did you get the idea the Tron lands are in any danger?

They probably aren't, but several pros such as Brian Braun Duin have publically called for a removal of 8th/9th editions from Modern because of Summer Bloom and Tron lands. Now, I don't think Wizards would be so hasty, but the sentiment is definitely out there that Modern would be a better format without Tron lands, Choke, Blood Moon, and Summer Bloom.

[MGB]

I started playing Modern again earlier this year (had been out for years as my local scene had died due to the second round of bannings). Then I moved somewhere where there is actually Modern, and I've been enjoying the format. While the power level and intricacy is (in most cases) dramatically lower than Legacy, the format is very diverse and there's still plenty of room for interesting decks. The Unstorm/Pyromancer deck I've been piloting lately is at a similar level of intricacy to most combo I've played in Legacy albeit a little slower. I will again stress the diversity of the format - there isn't a dominant shell like in Legacy which means you never know what you'll end up playing against.

The "diversity" is something that I actually don't like about Modern.

I'm the kind of player that does well when the metagame is established and predictable. When I know 90%+ of all of the decks I am going to be facing at a tournament, I can test copious matches beforehand to really gain an edge in the matchups. When the format is "wide open" like Modern, that edge disappears for me.

Legacy has always been a format where I basically know what I'm going to be playing against in every tournament, because the powerful decks are so clearly defined.

[Admiral_Arzar]

The "diversity" is something that I actually don't like about Modern.

I'm the kind of player that does well when the metagame is established and predictable. When I know 90%+ of all of the decks I am going to be facing at a tournament, I can test copious matches beforehand to really gain an edge in the matchups. When the format is "wide open" like Modern, that edge disappears for me.

Legacy has always been a format where I basically know what I'm going to be playing against in every tournament, because the powerful decks are so clearly defined.

I like playing broken and non-interactive decks when my opponents aren't necessarily prepared and loaded up on sideboard hate for me. Therefore I tend to thrive in wide-open metagames like current Modern .

[plowshares]

The "diversity" is something that I actually don't like about Modern.

I'm the kind of player that does well when the metagame is established and predictable. When I know 90%+ of all of the decks I am going to be facing at a tournament, I can test copious matches beforehand to really gain an edge in the matchups. When the format is "wide open" like Modern, that edge disappears for me.

Legacy has always been a format where I basically know what I'm going to be playing against in every tournament, because the powerful decks are so clearly defined.

Modern is diverse, but it is not healthy. There is a HUGE difference. There are tons of viable modern decks, but 90% of them are non-interactive linear decks. For fair decks this means that your sideboard is really all that matters. Did you pack the right hate for the decks you played, and more importantly did you draw your hate? At GP Charlotte I packed hate for twin, tron, and bloom, but picked up all three of my losses against affinity, which I only had 3 cards for.

[Lord Seth]

They probably aren't, but several pros such as Brian Braun Duin have publically called for a removal of 8th/9th editions from Modern because of Summer Bloom and Tron lands. Now, I don't think Wizards would be so hasty, but the sentiment is definitely out there that Modern would be a better format without Tron lands, Choke, Blood Moon, and Summer Bloom.

What "several pros" are these? The only one I've seen do that is Brian Braun-Duin, and honestly he has gigantic bias in this matter because removing those sets would benefit his pet deck significantly. And even he's not asking for a ban on the Tron lands, but a removal of the sets that have them, which is something even less likely than banning the lands.

[GundamGuy]

Think about if that happens though.

You're telling me players who spent hundreds acquiring duals will react positively to having them banned, simply because WotC wants them to rebuy duals for the format they've been playing for years? Not gonna happen!

Of course. It's not like Wizards has ever banned expensive cards that have seen play for years before...

Of course it's not likely. I also don't think it's likely that Wizards is going to print new duals anytime soon.

I find it far more likely that they will ax the reserve list and reprint the original duals, and guess how likely that I think that is...

[Lord Seth]

Modern is diverse, but it is not healthy. There is a HUGE difference. There are tons of viable modern decks, but 90% of them are non-interactive linear decks.

Looking at the top 5 decks (Grixis Twin, Naya Burn, Affinity, Grixis Control, and Jund) making up 43.65% of the metagame; these numbers are from MTG Goldfish, for whatever it's worth), we have 25.19% of the metagame not falling into that category (Grixis Twin, Grixis Control, and Jund). So that means that 25.19/43.65=57.7% of the top decks aren't 'non-interactive linear decks'. The 43.2% that does fall into the category of 'non-interactive linear decks' is a far cry from the 90% you claim. Even if none of the decks below those are interactive or nonlinear, that means that the top decks alone mean there's at most 75% of the decks that fall into the category you describe, not 90%.

Things might change as we move down the list, but again I'd want a more clear definition of what you're talking about. For example, does an aggro deck like Merfolk or Zoo count as 'non-interactive linear decks'? And while I counted Affinity in that category for the purpose of the above, I'm not sure I'm comfortable classifying it as 'linear' because the deck can take several angles of attack.

[MGB]

What "several pros" are these? The only one I've seen do that is Brian Braun-Duin, and honestly he has gigantic bias in this matter because removing those sets would benefit his pet deck significantly. And even he's not asking for a ban on the Tron lands, but a removal of the sets that have them, which is something even less likely than banning the lands.

Paolo Vitor Damo Da Rosa has ranted about the uninteractive nature of Modern and Tron in particular.

If you listen to Mike Flores and Patrick Chapin on their podcast, they too floated an idea of banning Tron + Summer Bloom. Chapin in particular dislikes Tron greatly.

[maharis]

The difference between Modern and Legacy is that there is at least a potential Modern format that's more interactive (whether that's through new printings, reprintings, unbannings or new bannings).

Legacy is a slave to Brainstorm & buddies because it's so far and away the best thing to do. And I've made friends with the fact that Brainstorm probably will never be banned, I'm just saying that the best deck will probably be a cantrip-driven deck for the rest of the format's existence. Nedleeds dropped a lot of knowledge in here earlier about all the pressure it puts on every other potential strategy, I'm not going to repeat it.

Anyway, I would handicap Monday this way:

1.5-1: No changes.
3-1: Dig Through Time is banned.
5-1: Sensei's Divining Top is banned.
8-1: Earthcraft is unbanned.
10-1: Show & Tell is banned.
20-1: Black Vise or Mind Twist is unbanned.
30-1: Counterbalance is banned.
50-1: Survival of the Fittest is unbanned.
75-1: Ponder is banned.
100-1: Brainstorm is banned.

[JamieW89]

The difference between Modern and Legacy is that there is at least a potential Modern format that's more interactive (whether that's through new printings, reprintings, unbannings or new bannings).

Legacy is a slave to Brainstorm & buddies because it's so far and away the best thing to do. And I've made friends with the fact that Brainstorm probably will never be banned, I'm just saying that the best deck will probably be a cantrip-driven deck for the rest of the format's existence. Nedleeds dropped a lot of knowledge in here earlier about all the pressure it puts on every other potential strategy, I'm not going to repeat it.

Anyway, I would handicap Monday this way:

1.5-1: No changes.
3-1: Dig Through Time is banned.
5-1: Sensei's Divining Top is banned.
8-1: Earthcraft is unbanned.
10-1: Show & Tell is banned.
20-1: Black Vise or Mind Twist is unbanned.
30-1: Counterbalance is banned.
50-1: Survival of the Fittest is unbanned.
75-1: Ponder is banned.
100-1: Brainstorm is banned.

I would probably bet quite a few things at those odds.

[Anarky87]

Paolo Vitor Damo Da Rosa has ranted about the uninteractive nature of Modern and Tron in particular.

If you listen to Mike Flores and Patrick Chapin on their podcast, they too floated an idea of banning Tron + Summer Bloom. Chapin in particular dislikes Tron greatly.

Did they actually give a good reason why those cards need to leave the format? I feel them even suggesting those to be banned laughable.

[KobeBryan]

The difference between Modern and Legacy is that there is at least a potential Modern format that's more interactive (whether that's through new printings, reprintings, unbannings or new bannings).

Legacy is a slave to Brainstorm & buddies because it's so far and away the best thing to do. And I've made friends with the fact that Brainstorm probably will never be banned, I'm just saying that the best deck will probably be a cantrip-driven deck for the rest of the format's existence. Nedleeds dropped a lot of knowledge in here earlier about all the pressure it puts on every other potential strategy, I'm not going to repeat it.

Anyway, I would handicap Monday this way:

1.5-1: No changes.
3-1: Dig Through Time is banned.
5-1: Sensei's Divining Top is banned.
8-1: Earthcraft is unbanned.
10-1: Show & Tell is banned.
20-1: Black Vise or Mind Twist is unbanned.
30-1: Counterbalance is banned.
50-1: Survival of the Fittest is unbanned.
75-1: Ponder is banned.
100-1: Brainstorm is banned.

for 20-1, i may bet that one. and 1.5 -1 for no changes.

[Lord Seth]

Paolo Vitor Damo Da Rosa has ranted about the uninteractive nature of Modern and Tron in particular.

I can't find anything by him singling out Tron. There was that Modern article he wrote a while ago when he was complaining about there being too many uninteractive decks and that Jund/Junk was the only thing that could handle them because it had "catch all" spells like Thoughtseize while everyone else had to just hope for drawing their hate (though this seems less valid now due to the Delver decks re-emerging), with no specification of Tron.

If you listen to Mike Flores and Patrick Chapin on their podcast, they too floated an idea of banning Tron + Summer Bloom. Chapin in particular dislikes Tron greatly.

I don't know the full context, but floating an idea is very different from actually advocating it or thinking it could happen.

Basically, there is absolutely no good reason to believe the Tron lands are in any danger whatsoever in Modern. I'd be more worried about a fetchland ban than the Tron lands. (note: I think there's no chance of a fetchland ban. It's still more likely)

[Dice_Box]

Tron is a police deck in the format, preying upon slower grind decks. It's good for Modern that Tron is in the format even if I personally do not enjoy playing against it because I never play decks that beat it.