All B/R update speculation.

[rufus]

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Roughly (very roughly, I totaled percentages rather than cards for this figure) 54% of that top 8 is blue cards. Isn't it more appropriate to say the top 8 is 54% blue? On the other hand, if you are talking strictly about decks running efficient blue cantrips, then 88% of that top 8 is 'blue'.

Calculating that way, blue is 170% over-represented compared to what there would be if there was an equal color balance, right?

[Lord Seth]

Crimhead: I am just saying that when a card is played by almost every deck it should be banned, and i think that's elementary. You say that penetration is not the only reason to ban a card, but i think it should be the most important reason. i don't think there will ever be a format that wizards care about (say modern), where 70% decks play a card.

You weren't playing Standard in RTR-Theros then, I take it. It's no exaggeration to say that Mutavault saw about as much play in that Standard (maybe even more) than Brainstorm does in Legacy.

To be fair, though, Mutavault did effectively get "banned" when it rotated out.

[Zombie]

This would be much more descriptive than to say the meta is 70-80% "blue". To some of us it actually makes a big difference that the other colours have this representation.

You'll notice that the blue haters tend to want to make the meta around as warped and blue centric as they possibly can, even if that means a loss of accuracy and/or precision when describing the format. You're never going to win. Within a day or two your astute post will be long buiried and the blue haters will continue to repeat the same arguments.

The thing there is diversity of are threats and answers. The many decks in the format play different threats and answers in many colors because those are roughly competitive with each other.

But every damn deck is fueled by the same damn engine. In the field of engines, there is one thing to do with very narrow exceptions. This is not the case with most things, where you have actual reasonable choice. Miracles is not splashing green to destroy artifacts because white and red options are competitive, decks don't solely go to blue to hate on combo because black and white have competitive options. Killing creatures is not effectively the sole domain of white or red or black - they all get played because there's actual, free choice.

In engines, there just isn't. It's only about how deep into the rabbit hole you want to go.

That's the core issue. That the engine is blue is an added annoyance due to many factors - cost, availability and having to account for the color being key ones - but the core problem is that in an absolutely integral and necessary part of deckbuilding, you just don't have options. You have one thing, which you have to do.

[ahg113]

Edit: Didn't want to double post so some additional thoughts.

It's ok to cantrip, because- . Isn't that the message of the world? I mean, do we want to start building more artificial islands like China because the Earth is a blue marble, and not a red marble (like our neighbor Mars)?

They want to divert attention from BS to Top becasue Top was banned before.. as a player who enjoys Jund Nic-fit I find it disgusting

As a Dark Confidant fan, not playing blue, I agree with you. It's often a joke comment, that non-cantrip.dec can use SDT to help mitigate the lack of card selection. So now, here's an article calling for it's ban, instead of dealing with the solution. Cause if you're not playing cantrip.dec, it's difficult to have nice efficient things.

On the other hand, if you are talking strictly about decks running efficient blue cantrips, then 88% of that top 8 is 'blue'.

Thank you for the "fair and balanced"^TM summary question. It's this second half of the puzzle, and not the first that so many nay-sayers are focused on. For the heck of it, when it comes to Phatty creature cause derp- Jin-Gitaxias, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, and Inkwell Levithan, are all decent choices. But Griz just does a lil bit better job. The kill condition is moot, if the engines are all the same.

It's like How in F1 racing, there are only a few actual engine makers, but so many varied cars. Lately, you have a small chance to win if you have a Ferrari engine, but it's not likely, just not shocking to win. If you have a Mercedes engine, jackpot, you have a winning record in all but maybe 4 races over the past two seasons. Before then (and with different tires), Renault engines powered Red Bull. But a rules change, and now Red Bull and Renault are on the shits with each other. Red Bull is, gasp, thinking of buying Mercedes engines for their cars. That's like Slyvan plug splashing . [/unnecessary F1 analogy - HT Zombie]

[Crimhead]

If the deck has enough blue cards to support Force of Will, it's generally considered a blue deck.

Semantics. As far as concerns colour balance, there is a big difference between a format which is 80% mono-blue decks vs a format which is 80% three colour decks which are only 50% blue.

Putting Storm, Thresh, and Omnitell all into the same colour category is less descriptive than calling each deck all the coloured it is. Do we want a precise description, or do we want to put as big a spotlight as we can on the colour blue?

Also, if 88% of that top 8 is blue, where's the point of "too blue"?

Obviously a subjective question...
For me the answer actually depends on the concentration of other colours within those "blue" decks. The more of other colours I see in the "blue" decks, the fewer blue-less decks I need to see to feel the colour imbalance is not a problem.

Calculating that way, blue is 170% over-represented compared to what there would be if there was an equal color balance, right?

I didn't check your math...

But the less accurate way of calculating suggests 400% over-representation! For those of us who care a little about colour imbalance but not very much, this is a huge difference.

The thing there is diversity of are threats and answers.

The day I decide playing against S&T vs playing against Thresh is not a diverse experience I will take this comment more seriously. For you maybe those matches seem alike, but to me they are night and day.

In engines, there just isn't. It's only about how deep into the rabbit hole you want to go.

We do have competitive blue-less decks, so your statement isn't actually true.

For some people there aren't enough options outside of cantrips, and I understand that. But to say there are no other options is bullshit.

[Barook]

The thing there is diversity of are threats and answers. The many decks in the format play different threats and answers in many colors because those are roughly competitive with each other.

Problem is that the common answers to cantrips (e.g. Chalice, Thalia) are normally sorcery speed and more expensive than the cantrips, plus putting limitations on your own deckbuilding.

If we had more maindeckable instant speed answers to shut down cantrips for 1 mana or less (at least ones that aren't fucking Pyroblast/REB) that don't go into blue decks, then the format would be in a better place.

[Watersaw]

Semantics. As far as concerns colour balance, there is a big difference between a format which is 80% mono-blue decks vs a format which is 80% three colour decks which are only 50% blue.

...

We do have competitive blue-less decks, so your statement isn't actually true.

For some people there aren't enough options outside of cantrips, and I understand that. But to say there are no other options is bullshit.

...you realize he was arguing semantics in the first place, right? As in, when is a deck considered blue. And only 50% blue is a huge chunk of what you're playing, especially if the other half includes your mana base (full disclosure: I didn't actually check the math to see if it does). Even if it doesn't, it's still half your spells. 80% of the field running a significant chuck of the same color (with a large portion of that being identical cards) is insane!

As for the bit about engines, his whole point was that there is a clear best option (which is true), not that there are no other options.

[Crimhead]

As for the bit about engines, his whole point was that there is a clear best option (which is true), not that there are no other options.

The cantrip set-up powers more tier one decks; not necessarily better decks.

[Ace/Homebrew]

And only 50% blue is a huge chunk of what you're playing, especially if the other half includes your mana base (full disclosure: I didn't actually check the math to see if it does).

It doesn't include lands.

[Dice_Box]

Another writer and (good) player - and a control freak who never met a control strategy he didn't like (Shaheen Soorani) - calling for the banning of the stupid, inane Sensei's Divining Top in Legacy:



http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Solutions.html

I fully agree with this, and I'm glad one of the better players in this community had the nerve to put this out there. SDT is just such a poisonous card in this format that causes so many logistical problems, and its banning would be almost pure upside.

He is also suggesting banning Depths to speed up the format. That's the total opposite of what would happen. His arguments I feel are "I dislike X and have the power to publish an article". Not a great like to take.

[Zombie]

We do have competitive blue-less decks, so your statement isn't actually true.

For some people there aren't enough options outside of cantrips, and I understand that. But to say there are no other options is bullshit.

But every damn deck is fueled by the same damn engine. In the field of engines, there is one thing to do with very narrow exceptions. This is not the case with most things, where you have actual reasonable choice. Miracles is not splashing green to destroy artifacts because white and red options are competitive, decks don't solely go to blue to hate on combo because black and white have competitive options. Killing creatures is not effectively the sole domain of white or red or black - they all get played because there's actual, free choice.

In engines, there just isn't. It's only about how deep into the rabbit hole you want to go.

I recognize there's a couple token exceptions that manage to survive. That there are some small exceptions to a rule does not mean it isn't, by and large, true.

[jrsthethird]

If we had more maindeckable instant speed answers to shut down cantrips for 1 mana or less (at least ones that aren't fucking Pyroblast/REB) that don't go into blue decks, then the format would be in a better place.

I think it would be interesting to see Gutteral Response able to counter sorceries as well.

[GundamGuy]

If we had more maindeckable instant speed answers to shut down cantrips for 1 mana or less (at least ones that aren't fucking Pyroblast/REB) that don't go into blue decks, then the format would be in a better place.

First point: Colors are kind of irrlevant in a format with 10 Fetches and Dual Lands. We should be talking about stratagies not colors, and if strategies are getting squeezed out.

IMO it's a real shame that Discard like Hymn and LotV are unplable right now due to Dig Though Time.

Second Point: The real trick to shutting down cantrips is is keeping whatever you think they need to print to shut cantrips down out of "Blue" decks.

I mean there was Mental Misstep, but uh...nope that will just go into all the blue decks... so... uh back to square one. (A small part of me wants to see Mental Misstep unbanned even though it's likely a huge mistake... or is it... )

Maybe another Chalice of the Void like card... maybe a card that's just alwasy Chalice on 1? IDK. There are possible things that Wizards could do if they wanted to.

[Crimhead]

I recognize there's a couple token exceptions that manage to survive. That there are some small exceptions to a rule does not mean it isn't, by and large, true.

In the field of engines, there is one thing to do with very narrow exceptions.

'Narrow' meaning the alternatives don't power enough decks for your liking? That's no reason to dismiss the deck's they do power.

[rufus]

...

I mean there was Mental Misstep, but uh...nope that will just go into all the blue decks... so... uh back to square one. (A small part of me wants to see Mental Misstep unbanned even though it's likely a huge mistake... or is it... )

...

They could've made a red version that only affects blue spells. Of course, if they did that now, there'd probably be endless hilarity in vintage.

[Lemnear]

Uncounterable Pyroblast #TheDream

[Barook]

They could've made a red version that only affects blue spells. Of course, if they did that now, there'd probably be endless hilarity in vintage.

Everything that isn't a permanent, symmetrical effect is bound to be absorbed by blue decks if it's good enough. See: Mental Misstep

[Crimhead]

What you guys are saying about Shaheen is really funny, because he's traditionally the biggest Control proponent in every format. He plays Ux control in every format it's legal in, and basically never plays non-Control decks. He's ALL about Control decks and he thinks SDT (a classic control card) is bad for the game.

Maybe he plays creature-based midrange control decks (eg, Blade, Shardless)? That would be consistent with his hatred for Punishing Grove - that combo used to beat the snot out of Stoneblade before TNN. Based on that article, I can't imagine dude is a big fan of pure control decks. I'd be surprised if he ever played Cunning Wake or Stasis decks.

[Gheizen64]

Tbh for all the bad Misstep would do, it would at least polarize the format making Chalice decks even stronger positioned because they'd run 4 more dead cards against them. Sorta like:

Chalice > U decks > nonstormcombo? and basically everything else > Chalice

[Nielsie]

I am intrigued by someone's suggestion to have a permanent one counter chalice. It could be something like a 1CC artifact "Players cannot cast spells of mana cost 1". That way they can't even fill up their yard anymore for a DTT. But I guess this is too powerfull and I guess this post should move to the shitty-card-creation-thread... oh well, one can only dream...