[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver) [Archive] - Page 13

Storming_Dude

08-29-2018, 06:00 AM

Hi mates...
I would like to share my Side IN/OUT to you..

SIDEBOARD (https://ibb.co/hfNz8U)

Any suggestions?

Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts, a few comments from my point of view:

- Miracles - I don't like Surgicals in this MU and would leave in at least the 4th FoW and maybe even the second Angler
- Grixis Delver - Instead of reducing our # of threats I would rather cut Hymns or not board in the Flusterstorms
- UB Shadow - Same here, I think that our flying threats are rly important for pressure, thus I would either cut Hymns/Goyfs or not board Flusterstorms
- ANT/TES - I don't like the AD in this MU post-board (even though this sometimes leads to a blow out by Xantid Swarm), I would rather 2 TNN (Pitch to Force) or 1 Waste 1 TNN
- Eldrazi - If this refers to Aggro Eldrazi (where Daze often shines but FoW does not), I would rather cut FoW instead of Daze (as Chalice is not really a problem for us) to catch TKS / Reality Smasher on curve without issues and card-disadvantage
- D&T - Why are you keeping in 2 FoW while boarding out Hymn which is sometimes a huge blow out? Would do it reverse
- Lands - Why are you bringing in TS in this MU? OTP maybe but with only two the discard into surgical advantage seems too low for me - Would keep in 2 Daze as they to a lot of work early on
- Red Prison - Would cut 2 more Pushs (does not hit any threats w/o fetch, blocked by Chalice) instead of TNN and Ponder
- Blade - I would rather reduce the # of Wastelands instead of Daze as especially Esperblade is operating on a tight mana base and Daze often catches them off-guard or slows them down drastically - In addition, we have to be the aggressor in this game, thus we need the tempo advantage
- BUG Midrange - Why are you leaving out Liliana in this MU? It's all about the grind and efficient answers / recursion and she offers both to us next to an additional win con. I would also not board in Flusterstorms and MC (if I think that my opp is only playing 1-2 TNNs (which is most likely the case)). (-4 FoW, -3 Daze, -1 Wasteland - +2 Liliana, +2 TS, +2 BB, +2 SP)
- Omnitell / Sneak & Show - Why are you differentiating the boarding, where do you see the main differences?
- Reanimator - I would cut Hymns and ADs further down to leave in TNNs as pitch and additional threat. Why have you left any of them in the deck?
- Affinity - I would rather cut FoW / Daze instead of TNN as it is often a road block on the ground so we can focus our removal on flyers
- Infect - I would board Liliana as well, maybe instead of Flusterstorm - Whilest infect can be very fast, after killing the first 1-2 threats it is mostly about keeping the board clear and the creatures small, which lili is excellent at. In addition, their pumps do nothing against her as the -2/-1 last to their turn and kills everything at end of turn
- 4c Loam - Would keep in Edicts and not board TS (due to Chalice)
- Merfolk - Would cut more FoW instead of TNN

In total, I feel that you're underappriciating Daze a little bit too much, it is a powerful card in many MU and one of our core strenght having it available - Maybe you can share your thought on this as well?

Looking forward to your feedback!

toffee

08-29-2018, 08:25 AM

Thanks for your thoughts.

-Miracle: surgical on terminus/stp, but this is only an idea....a STP + Snapcaster/STP can be GG.
-Ant/Tes: abrupt decay for swarm,confidant,flowers,ground seal for examples
-D&T: on the play Tourach, on the draw TS. The increase of BB can be a game loss. FOW in for GG-Spells(Gideon,CJ,Cataclysm,RIP out of Thalia).
-Lands: TS only on the play, +1Fow +1Daze OTD.
-Red Prison: I keep FPush only for Magus/Goblin fast.
-Infect: this a fast deck...after 1-2 removals/counters a creature is enough to win.
-Ub Shadow: in this matchup I need fast responses, but I've tested against this matchup only few times.
-Grixis Delver: My deck becomes midrange in this matchup. I need to resolve all problems.
-Combo decks: TNN is a bad choice in my opinion. Delver/Goyf/Angler are enough.

Storming_Dude

09-03-2018, 06:15 AM

How did your tournament go? Any lessons learned?

toffee

09-03-2018, 10:07 AM

How did your tournament go? Any lessons learned?

Big Tournament with 141 players. .......I was very unlucky in this tournament.

Infect 2-0
D&T 2-1
Big Eldrazi 2-0
D&T 2-0

So, with 4-0 I've found an Elf:
- G1: delver doesn't flip for 4 turns, with sylvan library T2....only lands/creatures on top...absurd! I've lost with my opponent at 3 life points and from the top he found natural order for Behemot
- G2: a grindy match, because I had a flipped delver and he was at 3 life points...He had 4 elves and a dryad with 3 lands...I played seize and I've seen behemot/glimpse/2 elves/gea's cradle..discard glimpse...from the top he drew Heritage Druid and GG -.-

Ant 2-1

So, with 5-1 I've found another D&T:
- G1: I had 2 goyfs 4/5 and 0 cards in hand, then my opponent 0 cards in hand and 0 creatures onto the battlefield...from the top 2 STP and 2 stoneforge...I drew 4 lands. GG
- G2: He began with Mother + Thalia and I lost with only 2 lands and 3 decay/ 2casualties/2hope/1tnn in hand...incredible.

5-2
this game isn't for me...

I was very embittered, so I would play for top16....Ant
- G1: Combo T2 with discard
- G2: Mulligan to 5... Combo T2 with discard
GG.

5-3 embarrassed.

Pro&Cons:
- Pros: The list seems solid.
- Cons: I hate delver...the worst delver deck in order to flip delver.

I will switch to control/midrange perhaps.

Ixbpoqdxl

09-10-2018, 12:49 PM

https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/guilds-of-ravnica-preview-assassins-trophy/

I think we’re back. The card looks insane even with Decay and Push already as format staples.

KobeBryan

09-10-2018, 02:22 PM

New card doesn't do anything decay couldn't do.

The deck that kicked bug out is DRS.

Storming_Dude

09-10-2018, 02:29 PM

New card doesn't do anything decay couldn't do.

The deck that kicked bug out is DRS.

Well, I have to disagree, the card handels Jace, Gideon and Teferi perfectly and gives us additional out against big creatures as Eldrazi or bigger Artifacts as Batterskull, something the deck is currently really struggling with - Nevertheless we have to see whether it is a real boost for the deck or just a situational upgrade for Abrupt Decay.

Edit: It also upgrade our MU vs all Utility Lands Decks as it does hit lands - Lands, Depths, 12 Post, Eldrazi etc. will have a really rough time against BUG^^

P.S.: Attented MKM Paris and went 6-3 with BUG Delver, will write a short report later.

Final Fortune

09-10-2018, 06:39 PM

New card doesn't do anything decay couldn't do.

The deck that kicked bug out is DRS.

You can't ignore removal that destroys everything that Abrupt Decay doesn't because the deck's biggest problem is not being able.to answer threats it can normally only keep parity with like Gurmag Angler/Batterskull or worse. This easily fits the Diabolic Edict slot, or at the very worst is one of the most flexible SB cards you could possibly ask for.

Card is nuts.

xix

09-11-2018, 12:13 AM

You can't ignore removal that destroys everything that Abrupt Decay doesn't because the deck's biggest problem is not being able.to answer threats it can normally only keep parity with like Gurmag Angler/Batterskull or worse. This easily fits the Diabolic Edict slot, or at the very worst is one of the most flexible SB cards you could possibly ask for.

Card is nuts.

I agree, grixis had dreadbore style card to help vs PW/big creature, some played lilana's defeat, this lets BG have a 2 mana answer, but it is even more versatile, at the cost of the basic, which could be good or bad... Also, sometimes you can get them on land if they brainstormed and don't want to shuffle, rare but it could happen.

Looking at this being 1-2 of, with 2-3 decay still being in Main.

wcm8

09-11-2018, 05:50 PM

Against another deck that doesn't play basic lands, this card also functions as Sinkhole.

I would say that Assassin's Trophy is a fantastic flexible card. I expect to see a lot of it, and the return of some sort of BUG control deck to Tier 1.

It also makes me wonder if they'll print a Vinidicate/Maelstrom Pulse sorcery that only costs 2 mana with no downside other than Sorcery speed.

Xod

09-16-2018, 04:00 AM

@toffee, I will soon try your list. Always been drawn to BUG colors and especially this deck (although now without the powerplays of DRS). Although a bit of bad luck, your report looks like it played quite well. Any other changes you would make?

HardBrain

09-16-2018, 05:34 AM

After few locals i decide to share with u my list which went quite good.
After shaman exile from Legacy i run le doffrent shell. For now i am playing this:
4 Nimble mangoose
4 delver of secret
2 true name nemesis

4 fow
4 daze
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 thoughtseize
2 HTT
2 abrupt
2 fatal push
1 Dismember
1 Liliana od last hope

4wasteland
3 underground sea
1 bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 island
1 swamp
4 połkniesz delta
2 mosty rainforest
2 verdant catacomb

30spells to fluo delver. Maximmum disrupt - we can ruin mana base opponent by stifle and wasteland, discard their hands, counter threads and cast triublemaker creature which cant be touched.

2 dread of Night
1 bitterblossom
1 Liliana od last hope
2 diabolic edict
2 surgical extraction
1 toxic delunge
1 pithing needle
1 red elemental blast
1 Dismember
1 sylvan library
1 life from the loam
1 explosives

After new release i am thinking to -2 push -1 Dismember and add 3x trophy to ruin their basic ka ds if they run on single basic and more land disrupt.

Stevestamopz

09-18-2018, 03:25 AM

I'm pretty interested in this Assassin's Trophy card. It's ability to actually deal with that goddamned stupid zombie fish while also breaking up Thespian's Stage/Dark Depths decks and ALSO being able to sinkhole at instant speed makes me think that it's super versatile enough to justify the 2 mana cost.

This led me to the following "value" delver list, similar to the BURG lists that were being played in early-mid 2016; except this time you're not just stone cold dead to a delve threat, nor are you forced into a 4th colour to kill a Planeswalker. I could see an argument about replacing the Snares and Pierces with discard spells but I think counters are much better against Grixis Control, Miracles and the mirror.

//Creature (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

//Instant (22)
3 Assassin's Trophy
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

//Sorcery (6)
1 Life from the Loam
1 Night's Whisper
4 Ponder

//Land (20)
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Bitterblossom
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Painful Truths
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize

It's not all upside the mana curve looks like total ass:
https://i.imgur.com/vf2dSNx.png

talpa

09-19-2018, 01:55 AM

A problem I see is that Assassin's Trophy makes your opponent mana ramp. So I think daze and even more the Pierce slots lose efficiency, while I would certainly value snare. Maybe though AT will be better in a delverless midrange shell...

Draggo

09-19-2018, 07:57 AM

Storming_Dude

09-19-2018, 09:11 AM

So I've been playing Grixis Tempo for a small lifetime now and with the coming of Assassin's Trophy I feel like changing to BUG since it will have literly all awnsers within it's colors now, next to having the most annoying options of creatures for the opponent to deal with.

I've been thinking of the following list and wonder what people here think of it.
I'm a bit unsure about the 2/2/3 split with removal. I'm used to 2 Push/4 Bolt from Grixis, so changing to 2 mana-removal is a bit painfull but proberly worth it.

Creatures: 9
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
1 True-Name Nemesis

Enchantments: 3
2 Bitterblossom
1 Mirri's Guile

Counter: 10
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

Removal/disrupt: 11
4 Stifle
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Assassin's Trophy

Draw: 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Lands: 19
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Faerie Macabre
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Dread of Night
1 Darkblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Divert
1 Flusterstorm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life from the Loam

I think you won't be happy with the performance of this list - And as already pointed out by several people, more 2cmc removal also means we need to adjust our approach as we will be way more often in a tapped-out (virtually due to AT on hand or for real due the Hymn etc) situation.

Regarding your list, 9 threats is way too low from my experience and no "big threat" is a huge deal as we do not have Lightning Bolt for additional reach. Miris Guile is just a bad card, don't understand why it's in this list. Stifle / Mongoose can work out but as mentioned above TA was always a more "Tap-Out" type of deck applying tons of pressure from different angles with best in class removal and not too much of a disruption/tempo type of deck, thus I would not included them in this deck. Not gonna start with the SB, several strange choices in there (e.g., 4cmc planeswalker with only 19 lands).

Moving forward, we have to see whether Team America will stick to Delver or exclude it (and maybe Daze) for Strix and/or Snapcaster mage to become more midrange (maybe something to be discussed in the other BUG thread). For the delver variation, I would recommend to stick with 20 lands, Hymns and all other 2cmc bombs instead of trying to build a BUG-colored canadian treshhold.

Draggo

09-19-2018, 09:32 AM

Thanks for the feedback.

I do count the 2 Bitterblossom as threats, making it 11 totall. In Grixis I play 11 or 12 with 1 Bitterblossom, but BUG might need the 12-13, as you mentioned it lacks Bolts to finish the game.
I'll look in to adding the second TNN main.

I've played Guile for a short time right before the Shaman ban and I loved the card. Tempo want to draw the right cards at the right time, Guile helps doing this every turn. But this might be personal preference.

The sideboard is janky for sure. I've just cut all red cards from my Grixis SB and added some BUG-stuff I thought might be good. Need some help here but I guess it's also depending on what happends to the meta and what turn out to be good or bad match-ups.

Xod

09-19-2018, 11:36 AM

How would you sideboard in the mirror?

Remove FoW/Hymns? What to 'counter' their plan?

I'm using toffee's latest list as a reference and what I'm going to play.

Storming_Dude

09-19-2018, 12:07 PM

How would you sideboard in the mirror?

Remove FoW/Hymns? What to 'counter' their plan?

I'm using toffee's latest list as a reference and what I'm going to play.

SB in the Mirror is quiet difficult but you would exchange FoW for SP & FS, in addition I might cut 1 Hymn and 1-3 Daze to include MC (if they also play three TNN), Liliana or Bitterblossom - I wouldn't cut all the hymns as they generate heavy card advantage which is really important.

Haven't spent a lot of time on this as I never played the mirror on paper on any tournament.

toffee

09-20-2018, 02:43 AM

In my opinion, after a lot of mirror tests, I think that Daze is really strong against it..In addition because of the ban of DRS.
On the draw you can cut 1 HTT in favor of Seize...Cut all Forces.
So...the side in/out depends on what kind of BUG he played (Mongoose? Stifle? TNN?)...G1 involves how many cards do u want to side in/out.
About the list you are playing, is it my own or there are differences?

PS: For all, what do u think about Trophy into BUG Delver? Trophy goes against Daze in some circumstances.....

HardBrain

09-20-2018, 04:52 AM

Anyone can comment my list? More disrupt - counter / stifle / discard. 20 lands. And i won local in row with tier1 decks

Draggo

09-20-2018, 05:46 AM

4 Nimble mangoose
4 delver of secret
2 true name nemesis

4 fow
4 daze
4 stifle
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 thoughtseize
2 HTT
2 abrupt
2 fatal push
1 Dismember
1 Liliana od last hope

4 wasteland
3 underground sea
1 bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 island
1 swamp
4 połkniesz delta
2 mosty rainforest
2 verdant catacomb

Sideboard
2 dread of Night
1 bitterblossom
1 Liliana od last hope
2 diabolic edict
2 surgical extraction
1 toxic delunge
1 pithing needle
1 red elemental blast
1 Dismember
1 sylvan library
1 life from the loam
1 explosives

After new release i am thinking to -2 push -1 Dismember and add 3x trophy to ruin their basic ka ds if they run on single basic and more land disrupt.

I like the list but I can't see how Stifle works combined with Hymns and TS since you want to play TS and Hymn as soon as possible. Same for the Stifle, the faster you can hit Fetchland with it, the more impact it has.
I would either cut Stifle or cut the discard for the 4th Ponder and some Spell Pierce.
I also feel like 20 land is alot when you are on a Stifle-list and your curve is this low when you have no 2-mana creatures. I think you can get away with 19 lands if you play 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder.

toffee

09-20-2018, 06:11 AM

Anyone can comment my list? More disrupt - counter / stifle / discard. 20 lands. And i won local in row with tier1 decks

There will be some situations where:
"Open with Stifle or tap-out seize?"...maybe with the first option you can lose a turn where you could have done other...
I think that BUG Delver's philosophy has always been TAP-OUT....so in the last years..
And if I want to play BUG Delver, personally I prefer TAP-OUT logic.

Xod

09-20-2018, 11:26 AM

PS: For all, what do u think about Trophy into BUG Delver? Trophy goes against Daze in some circumstances.....
How many basics do multicolor decks play? 2 or 3 max? And against wasteland decks they will fetch them first, so I think this will hardly matter. Also if you destroy a dual and they get a basic, you still cut a color. Later in the game, Daze hardly matters that much.

I think the flexibility of AT will cover that possible basic.

I will probably cut 2 edicts for 2 AT.

And toffee, yes I will be using you exact list.

toffee

09-20-2018, 02:02 PM

How many basics do multicolor decks play? 2 or 3 max? And against wasteland decks they will fetch them first, so I think this will hardly matter. Also if you destroy a dual and they get a basic, you still cut a color. Later in the game, Daze hardly matters that much.

I think the flexibility of AT will cover that possible basic.

I will probably cut 2 edicts for 2 AT.

And toffee, yes I will be using you exact list.

If u will play at some tournaments before the release, I will need your small report :smile:

HardBrain

09-20-2018, 03:19 PM

I want reach many options. If i open TSeize and Stifle i play Tseize. There always will be something to stifle or still its fuel for fow. Dont forget about opposite wastelandy, mystic, storm trigger etc. Now i am playing on 19lands. I CIT swamp and i put out 1 Dismember and 1 Liliana for 3 AT.
Tomorrow will be another weekly event. Wll see

Draggo

09-20-2018, 03:58 PM

Having a lot of options is great. But the downside can be that you have too many options and end up doing nothing or redundant things.
While Stifle can hit multiple things, it's design in the decks is to Stifle the mana. Not having the mana means there are no resources to deploy what ever the opponents want's to do. Discard is removing what ever the opponent wants to deploy.

The questions that you can ask:
Why attack the mana when you remove what they want to cast anyways?
Or:
Why remove what they want to cast when you can attack the mana so they are unable to cast is anyways?

It could work to do both, but why do both when you can do one of these things better or more consistent? E.g. not cutting down on card selection.

Anyway, I'm a huge Stifle fan since it's a better top deck for the reasons you mentioned. Even when it's bad, it can still be pitched to FoW and it can stop a lot of other things apart from fetch-lands.

HardBrain

09-20-2018, 08:30 PM

I understand but now metagame is still evolving and players try to think outside the box. Me too. I played against UR delver with Bomat. His face after stifle his bomat Magic...priceless. Same against storm or miracle trigger. Last week i played against miracle two rounds and won with mangoose which cat be touched and his terminie cant resolve with my stifle. Good games

HardBrain

09-23-2018, 05:27 PM

Last Friday I won again but with new set.

Lands:19
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
2 verdant catacomb
2 misty rainforest
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
1 island

Threads:10
4 Delver fo Secrets
4 Nimble Mangoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells/Delver Flip:32
4 Daze
4 Fow
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Hymn to tourach
2 Spell pierce
1 Surgical Extraction

SB:
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Liliana of the last hope
2 dread of night
1 sylvan library
1 toxic delunge
1 blue elemental blast
1 surgical extraction
1 life from the loam
1 Bitterblossom
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle

Round1 vs OmniTell
Game1: I put turn one Delver and flip it. In second turn I cast Thoughtseize and ruin his SnT. after couple of turns with stifle his land and destroy land Delver kill him.
Side in: 3 diabolic 1 surgical Side Out: 2 abrupt 2 fatal push
Game2: he play Volcanic and ponder. I wasteland his land and he play fetch goes for island. I play fetch and go for land play ponder. he tried to cast brainstorm but I daze him. after he daze mine he resolve brainstorm and I cast surgical to his brainstorm. I ruin his top deck. next turn I top deck force of will and I can protect my HTT. after I clear his hand we have played over 10 turns because I can't draw any threat but number fo my counter and discard was so big that he can't do anything.
2:0

Round2 vs Lands
Game1 my opponent start with very good 2xmox and accessories to loam at first turn. it was very good and I can't stop him.
Side In: 1 pithing needle 1 bitter blossom 1 loam 1 surgical 1sylvan library 3 diabolic edict
Side Out: 4 Thoughtseize 2 HTT 2 Fatal push
Game 2 I won because of diabolic edict to his monster and kill by Bitterblossom
Game 3 start by his Alpine to the Moon on my Wastelands. I was very surprised. I cast delver and down him to low life then I use stifle two times and stop his combo. nimble mangoose killed his game

Round3 vs UR Delver
well known match up for me. its very hard if he draw perfect threat and protect it but fast TNN do the job when we counter 3 burn spells
I play against him over 30 games so I can't describe to don't mix our games here hehe

I am very confident with this build and I think it can beat a lot of decks.
I won two times against Miracles and against Reanimator I have very good result.

Asthereal

10-09-2018, 05:13 AM

In my opinion, after a lot of mirror tests, I think that Daze is really strong against it..In addition because of the ban of DRS.
On the draw you can cut 1 HTT in favor of Seize...Cut all Forces.
Isn't anyone on the traditional "Daze when OTP, FoW when OTD" plan anymore?
I always felt that was a very decent plan.

On the play we have a card less, but we have the initiative, in which case Daze really shines.
On the draw we are behind in development, but we have a card more. Dazing would put us even further behind, while FoW could help regain the initiative at the expense of that extra card.

About Stifle vs. Thoughtseize:
I would agree that they don't really work well together. It's probably best to choose. If you run Stifle, I would recommend also adding a few CMC1 counterspells (Pierce/Snare/?) so you have more to do when you keep mana open. If you go for the tapout strat, you might need more removal for situations where their threats slip through our disruption. For the tapout strat, I usually went only free counterspells main board, and brought in mana costing counterspells only for post board games against combo or when main board cards proved ineffective. That way I was always able to tap out without thinking.

I've played both strategies, and both are very viable, but I've always felt the Stifle route was more consistent, and the tapout+discard route was a tad easier to play.

Draggo

10-10-2018, 07:39 AM

Isn't anyone on the traditional "Daze when OTP, FoW when OTD" plan anymore?
I always felt that was a very decent plan.

On the play we have a card less, but we have the initiative, in which case Daze really shines.
On the draw we are behind in development, but we have a card more. Dazing would put us even further behind, while FoW could help regain the initiative at the expense of that extra card.

In Grixis Tempo (same as most tempo decks), when sideboarding, I always check for the cards I want to bring in, then cut 'bad' cards main deck and see how it fits. If I need more slots to bring in sideboard cards I just ask the question: what would be more impactfull: Daze/FoW or the card I want to bring?
This leads to not always cutting either 4 FoW or 4 Daze depending on play/draw. It's really depending on the match-up. Most of the time I end up cutting either 2 FoW or 2 Daze since I swap other cards around first and board around 6 cards in most matches.
The glory of playing Tempo is having everything you need. You just need to have it at the right time :tongue:

Draggo

10-21-2018, 03:16 PM

Alright, did some testing with my new BUG list and got to the following list:

Lands [19]
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures [11]
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Sultai Scavenger
2 Nivmagus Elemental
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells [30]
1 Mirri's Guile
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Fatal Push
4 Assassin's Trophy

Sideboard [15]
1 Darkblast
1 Dread of Night
2 Golgari Charm
1 Divert
1 Pithing Needle
1 Unmoored Ego
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Bitterblossom

What I've tested:
- Mandrills instead of Scavengers > seems like a fine card, should be good in several match-ups but I missed the flying evasion
- Anglers > fine card if you don't want Scavengers and don't mind walking into walls
- Nimble Mongoose > not really tried it, didn't make the cut after goldfishing for a while. Never felt like I got 7 cards in the grave when I wanted to (for example, hand is empty or close to empty). Might be my playstyle.
- 3 Decay/3 Trophy split > Loved trophy, felt 'meh' with Decay. Tried 2 Push/4 Trophy next, loved it
- 3 Trops/2 Sea > swapped to 2 Trops/3 Sea when I swapped decays for Push. I like the setup now

Some odd-balls in the deck:
- 1 Flusterstorm > instead of Pierce #3. Gives some cool party tricks with Nivmagus Elemental
- 2 Nivmagus Elemental > I wanted additional 1-drops for the deck and figured there are always cards getting countered. Now they add value when countered. Also cards like Daze and Stifle lose some value later on in the game, now they keep some value. Missing out on Bolt to close out games is something you miss in BUG. Now I can transfer Push/Decay/Tropy into counters in match-ups I don't need them. With a Guile in play the need to cast cantrips falls off, now I can put them to other use. And, like mantioned at flusterstorm, you can do some funny party-tricks by adding a ton of counters with the storm-trigger.

When testing the Nivmagus Elemental did really well. Getting 2-4 counters at any point in the game already made a huge impact. I don't think you ever want to play more then 2 since you don't really want 2 in play at the same time.

2 TNN main seemd fine with 19 land where I never liked to have more then 1 3-mana-spell while having 18 lands.
19 lands seems the right number. Not much flooding and a good amount of Fetch for Brainstorm, filling grave or shuffle the top for Guile.

Need some help with the sideboard since I don't know what bad match-ups BUG had in the past and what it now has when using the catch-everything-trophy.
Questionable SB cards for how I see it:
1 Darkblast
1 Dread of Night
2 Golgari Charms
Seems like it's too much -1/-1 effects

surface33

12-12-2018, 06:14 PM

Hi guys, Last time I played this deck was 3 years ago, what is the current state of the delver variant? I can't find any decent results and was wondering if Grixis delver or Canadian are just better positioned right now.

Draggo

12-23-2018, 06:39 PM

Anyone still working on a list?

I tested some different compositions of the list. Even dropped Stifle (and put in discard) for a bit but I think I might get cold feet and put Stifle back in. Been playing that card for years now and Tempo decks just seem silly without it...

Going to tweek the following list:

Creatures: (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Narnam Renegade
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Gurmag Angler

Spells: (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Fatal Push
3 Assassin's Trophy

Lands: (19)
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard: (15)
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Divert
1 Life From the Loam
1 Bitterblossom
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Dread of Night
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Compost
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Unmoored Ego

ReinhardtGao

12-23-2018, 08:35 PM

Cpt_Lucifer

12-24-2018, 03:58 AM

Hi Guys.

Below is the list I'm playing right now. I joined a 20+ players little tournament last Saturday and got 2nd place with 5-1 result.

2 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
1 Bitterblossom
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Thoughtseize
2 Tropical Island
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge

My tournament result was:
2-1 DNT
1-2 Dark Depth
2-0 UW Delver
2-1 BR Reanimator
2-1 TES
2-0 Eldrazi Aggro

I think this deck is still good against combo decks and Eldrazi decks(aggro and post). But it will be a hard thing for us to play against other fair control decks like Grixis Control and Miracle.(If meta is mainly those decks, I'll move to my Czech Pile deck to play:))

I had almost given up on BUG decks, but there are so many good cards in those colours. Its good to see you guys are still brewing and tweaking Delver lists :smile: This looks very similar to the BUG Control deck I have been toying with recently.

Surprised you are running both Goyf and Gurglemag... Have you not run into issues with the big fish shrinking your Goyf?

Also interested to see how these changes have altered the gameplay style... Has this build made your list much slower than BUG Delver used to be?

Ixbpoqdxl

12-24-2018, 01:02 PM

Surprised you are running both Goyf and Gurglemag... Have you not run into issues with the big fish shrinking your Goyf?

Not the same person, but it's really not that bad. DRS was more taxing on the graveyard than running big delve guys (most of the time) since there was usually one on both sides of the board. BUG Delver has always been in between a tempo deck and a slow deck, depending on which game and what you've done with the sideboard, so the game plan hasn't really changed that much.

The biggest changes are what are the strengths of the colour combo? I feel we're supposed to have decent matches against the control decks, but in practice it doesn't feel like that's true. We're in a bit of a rough spot because it doesn't seem to excel at anything, but I guess it's legacy, and any deck will find success if you stick with it.

ReinhardtGao

12-25-2018, 09:30 PM

I had almost given up on BUG decks, but there are so many good cards in those colours. Its good to see you guys are still brewing and tweaking Delver lists :smile: This looks very similar to the BUG Control deck I have been toying with recently.

Surprised you are running both Goyf and Gurglemag... Have you not run into issues with the big fish shrinking your Goyf?

Also interested to see how these changes have altered the gameplay style... Has this build made your list much slower than BUG Delver used to be?

Thanks for your quote:) I used to think Goyf and Angler are conflict. But in order to increase the density of threats, I used both of them. You don't need to worry too much about your graveyard cuz Goyf still count your opponent's. It can be a good call against combo decks and Eldrazis.

Honestly, this list was built referred to many MO 5-0 list(which were named as Dimir Delver in Gold Fish). Some of them used both and got good result.

But yeah. Team America is not my only choice for Legacy and not the best deck in the meta either(or it should be in DTB already XDDDD). I'm also working on a Czech Pile list(BUG Midrange made me disappointed on GP Shizuoka so I moved to 4C). I'll choose either of them according to the meta:)

Draggo

01-28-2019, 04:09 PM

Got 2 lists I'm working on. 1 with Stifle and one without:

Creatures: (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Narnam Renegade
3 Sultai Scavenger
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells: (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Fatal Push
3 Assassin's Trophy

Lands: (19)
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard: (15)
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Divert
1 Life From the Loam
1 Bitterblossom
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Dread of Night
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Compost
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Unmoored Ego

And some Pteramander spice:
Creatures: (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Narnam Renegade / Nimble Mongoose
4 Pteramander

Spells: (29)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Fatal Push
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Preordain

Lands: (18)
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

mackaber

02-19-2019, 03:06 AM

With the introduction of Pteramander I've been pondering buildig a ub team america deck. While at first glance pteramander might appear a bit slow, it allows you to play Dark Confidant and actually works nicely with the "total destruction" approach of team america. A deck packing FOW+Daze+Thoughtseize+Hymn+Wasteland will usually give control and combo decks a hard time winning/establishing control within the first 5 turns. And by then you should be able to turn pteramander on reasonably often.

The creature suite of 4 delvers, 4 bobs and 4 pteramanders would also lend itself quite well to playing cabal therapy. However I'm unsure whether or not both hymn and Cabal Therapy can be supported in the same deck. But having both therpy and force would give starting 7 pteramanders much more utility. Chasis of the deck would look something like this:

14 coloured sources
4 wasteland

4 Delver
4 Bob
4 Pteramander

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4-5 removal (prolly no dismembers)

8-10 discard (Thoughtseize, Hymn, Cabal Therpy)

8-10 Cantrips

Any thoughts? Is this plan brutally flawed due to the inability to build a strong ub sideboard?

Stevestamopz

02-25-2019, 05:37 PM

Got a list I'm working on and will be running through a tournament on the weekend. I've gotta tell ya I'm pretty excited about this list now. When everyone is moving to cards like Chalice and Blood Moon and other griefer cards like B2B, BUG is the best deck at dealing with all that nonsense. Counter your Blood Moon, Decay your Chalice, attack with a 6/7 Goyf.

//Creature (10)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Gurmag Angler
3 Tarmogoyf

//Instant (24)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

//Sorcery (7)
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

//Land (19)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SB: 2 Bitterblossom
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis

Rather than trying to play the "long game" with planeswalkers against control decks (where BUG has always struggled because of it's weakness to Jace) my plan is to just over-power them with cards like Library/Loam/Blossom/TNN like so: Loam locked with Bitterblossom generating threats to push through Strix.

https://i.imgur.com/spbgIbWh.jpg

blablub

02-26-2019, 04:39 AM

[QUOTE=Stevestamopz;1065221]Got a list I'm working on and will be running through a tournament on the weekend. I've gotta tell ya I'm pretty excited about this list now. When everyone is moving to cards like Chalice and Blood Moon and other griefer cards like B2B, BUG is the best deck at dealing with all that nonsense. Counter your Blood Moon, Decay your Chalice, attack with a 6/7 Goyf.

Nice, this was excactly the same what i was thinking :)
I like your list as well, but i allways have a problem with TS and Stifle in the same deck because its the exact opposite^^ never tried it, is this an issue for you?

You dont like Liliana last Hope? I'm a big Fan of her against all types of Controldecks, but she is slower then Nemesis, i get that point

Stevestamopz

02-26-2019, 04:50 PM

Nice, this was excactly the same what i was thinking :)
I like your list as well, but i allways have a problem with TS and Stifle in the same deck because its the exact opposite^^ never tried it, is this an issue for you?

You dont like Liliana last Hope? I'm a big Fan of her against all types of Controldecks, but she is slower then Nemesis, i get that point

Knowing whether to Stifle or Thoughtseize on turn 1 is going to be difficult and largely contextual on the hand and what my opponent is on. In the scenario where I don't know what my opponent is playing, if I have Stifle, Thoughtseize and no other countermagic I would probably Thoughtseize on turn 1 where if I had Daze/Force backup I would probably hold up Stifle... but further testing will tell me whether or not this is a good idea. Further, if I have a turn 1 Delver I am playing turn 1 Delver 100% of the time.

I do like LLH a lot but I think that TNN may compliment the Stifle/Waste/Loam/Daze gameplan because of the immediate clock it puts the opponent on, rather than the threat of *eventual* inevitability that LLH gives against the control matchups.

BeTeP

02-27-2019, 02:52 AM

Thinking about TA in new meta too. Like the idea to run TA in threshold direction, im on it too. What if we run ass trophy instead of decay main? Props - can deal with gurmag, omni, sneak, break lands (kill depth is sweet and can be devastating if opponent doesnt run bacics, nice combo with stifle and wasteland), deal with jace (enemy №1 for all BUG lists), batterskull. Slops - can help opp to oppose our wasteland and stifle plan if he runs bacics. But it seems to me finding a land can be isue in few mutchups such as dnt and blades only.

Ixbpoqdxl

02-27-2019, 12:00 PM

I like Trophy out of the sideboard. There are a lot of basics in the format right now so I would rather rely on soft permission as answers G1, and bring it in when there are permanents you need to blast at any cost.

Stevestamopz

02-27-2019, 06:12 PM

TomTwice

02-27-2019, 06:21 PM

Only 10 threats maindeck always feels a little low to me. Have you had any issues with closing games or does the deck find a T1/T2 threat easily enough?

Draggo

02-28-2019, 03:29 PM

Asstrophy is a phenomenal card, no doubt with one of the highest ceilings ever printed on a removal spell and is something I want to include post day 1 testing.

It's ability to blow up Dark Depths/Inkmoth Nexus, Planeswalkers like Jace/Chandra, Gurmag and Batterskull (and my deck's current inabilities to cleanly answer them) has interested me since it was printed. Maybe it's the perfect 1-of type card. I'll make extensive notes after this weekend and get back to you all :)

I'm currently (next to 3 Push) on 3 Trophy main 1 side. The card is stupidly good and versatile. You can even land-lock other delver decks with it or take out those 1-off basic lands that people play to get around wasteland :cool:.
It greatly increases the lands match-up (blow up maze, tabernacle, Glacial Chasm) and several other matches as it takes out the popular cards you just named.

Stevestamopz

02-28-2019, 07:55 PM

Only 10 threats maindeck always feels a little low to me. Have you had any issues with closing games or does the deck find a T1/T2 threat easily enough?

It's probably on the lower side game 1 against decks like Death and Taxes and Miracles game 1 but it's still serviceable enough. Without DRS and without a good replacement 1 drop threat (Pteramander ain't it) I think we're always going to struggle to straddle the line between "good against combo" and "good against fair decks." My meta is particularly combo heavy though (or at least it feels that way to me) so I've built it with that in mind. I could easily see playing a TNN over the Snare slot if you had more fair decks.

I'm currently (next to 3 Push) on 3 Trophy main 1 side. The card is stupidly good and versatile. You can even land-lock other delver decks with it or take out those 1-off basic lands that people play to get around wasteland :cool:.
It greatly increases the lands match-up (blow up maze, tabernacle, Glacial Chasm) and several other matches as it takes out the popular cards you just named.

Agreed. Just not sure whether those really good interactions is worth giving decks we can struggle with (Grixis Control, Miracles, DnT - aka a large percentage of the format) an even easier time beating us.

Stevestamopz

03-02-2019, 03:23 AM

Went 4-1 with my list today. Only changes were -1 Snare, +1 Counterspell main, and -1 Dread of Night, +1 Thoughtseize in the side. Reason for the changes being Counterspell is worth the extra mana and I didn't want to go to a casual tournament and ruin some poor kid's first legacy tournament on DnT with such a hateful card. I would still probably recommend playing DoN at proper tournaments just because BUG is overall weak to DnT.

Round 1 I beat BUG Food Chain 2-1, game 1 he assembled the infinite dork brigade while I had Decay in my hand and no black mana to interact. Game 2 and 3 I Delver'd him. Notably in Game 3 I used Counterspell to counter his Tombstalker and crash in for lethal. Sylvan Library was great and I happily cashed in 8 life when I saw Counterspell, Spell Pierce + Stifle on top of my library.

Round 2 I played Mono-Blue Painter (similar to mono red in that it plays Ensnaring Bridge but for some reason plays Chalice as well (there is a nice combo of Chalice on 1 and Grindstone :confused:). Decay was an all star in this and I drew multiples in both games. 2-0 win. Actual Counterspell again was an all star, countering a card I had no other answer too (can't remember which).

Round 3 I played against Dredge and got mashed, obviously losing game 1 despite putting up a mean fight and drawing 0 hate in game 2 despite mulls/sylvan library becoming a very big necro. This matchup is certainly really difficult now and the deck overall feels very underplayed commensurate to how good it must be. I'll have to fit in a 4th or even 5th piece of GY hate in somehow. Ideas right now are a Crypt and Scooze (for their applicability in other matchups) but we'll see.

Round 4 I played against Eldrazi Post and was fortunate enough to draw 2 wastelands in every game. I still managed to lose game 1 despite that but was pinned on 1 mana for too long with only a Delver getting in there. I would certainly have won Game 1 had I drawn a 2nd land to be able to cast Counterspell and Tarmogoyf. Game 2 the 2 wastelands and Sylvan Library made it a non game and Game 3 I was able to just keep the pressure up with Goyfs and Anglers outpacing his threats while wasteland and thoughtseize kept his resources pinned.

The tournament ended there and I came in 3rd (4 way tie for 3-1 lol) but I played a match against my friend on UW Blade. Game 1 I didn't get enough going early and we basically played the control mirror for 20 turns until I got destroyed by his superior cards. Game 2 and 3 the sideboard plan came together and I was just able to overpower everything by putting too much onto the table, going wide with Bitterblossom, keeping his mana pinned with Stifle and shredding the powerful stuff out of his hand with thoughtseizes.

Overall deck felt great and it had to play against what I would consider to be the tougher matchups (combo is obviously what we want to play against with our maindeck config). Abrupt Decay is fucking ACE in the meta now folks.

ReinhardtGao

03-10-2019, 10:38 PM

After long-time-no-confidence with BUG Delver, I saw Stevestamopz's list. Participated a 20 players tournament last weekend with an small-adjusted-version and got 4-2 finally.

Here is the list:
Main-60
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
3 Gurmag Angler
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Thoughtseize
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
SB-15
2 Bitterblossom
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
2 True-Name Nemesis

-Changes for lands due to that I don't own the 4th USea and 3rd Trop. An island in main can also help me better play against Blood Moon/BTB/Wasteland/Price of Progress.
-As the metagame has no DNT but several control decks, I used 1 LtLH to replace the Dread of Night.

Game record:
R1: Izzet Delver XOO
I think this deck is very popular today. Light up the Stage is such a power card which fit the UR Delver system. My opponent easily crashed me on G1 with the normal opening. But G2 and G3 was quite different story. Although he resolved Pteramander very early, he failed to find out enough spells to fill in the graveyard. Keep countering Light up the Stage stopped him from gaining value. Stifle and wasteland also performed well here. With Goyf+Angler's active combat I won the match. I shall say that our deck, either removal or counter spells, works really great against UR delver. Early game will mostly they press us with delvers/Pteramanders and Young Pyromancer(This is BUG's top hate tbh). Therefore for the SB game we can, as what we do against Grixis Delver, change us to become a little bit midrange-alike, with more swamping spells and removal. P.S. LtLH is their night mare.

R2: Dragon Stompy (feat. Sudden Shock and Leyline of Punishment) XX
My G2 opponent is a famous Block-Deck player(oh actually there are more Block-deck players in Shanghai...you might heard it in Julian's podcast with James Hsu). G1 I kept with a lot of counters. But After I countered his Blood Moon x2, Goblins, Chalice and thoughtseized the Ensnaring Bridge, I got locked with a Trisphere and another Blood Moon. G2 I also countered a lot of his Block spells but I failed to find a big brother to finish the game.

R3: Esper Miracle OO
G1 I pressed opponent to 2 life but he resolved Terminus + JTMS. I was thinking of losing this game but he found that he forgot to reset his main deck. Auto won the game 1 :)
G2 the sideboard strategy was really spicy against Miracle with Bitterblossom and Liliana. Some on-time countering was also the key to stop them from gaining value.

R4: Grixis Control OO
G1: Opponent failed to find fatal push to kill my 5/6 Goyf. He drew multiple JTMS and tried to bounce back Goyf. But I countered them successfully and wasted their lands afterward.
G2: Opponent ate Thoughtseize + Wasteland + Stifle. Lacking mana that he couldn't do anything. The happiest thing was I made a 8/9 Goyf in this game as he FOWed my Bitterblossom. Big punch on the face!

R5: Elves OXX
I used a lot of removal and mana destruction to slow-down my opponent in G1. And successfully crashed him with Angler. However in G2 and G3, I drew less creatures to press them, and I found that my opponent has less spell but used the new 2GG Elves(when you cast a creature spell, draw a card). I think the sideboard plan for this deck need more consideration. My plan was:
Out: 3 Stifle and 1 more card I forgot
In: 2 Charm, 1 LtLH, 1 Needle

R6: UW Omni-Tell feat. Thalia, Heretic Cathar and BTB OO
G1 was a counter'n'block magic duel. And I won it finally as opponent has used up his hand and I resolved 2 creatures to keep combat.
G2 Opponent boarded out all the Omni components. I got blocked with Thalia at T3 as I used up all my counters in the opening hand. But 2 flipped delvers helped me keeping pressing him. With a decay I unblock myself and resolved a Bitterblossom. (Yeah I didn't know he is Omni and went with the Miracle SB plan actually:) Won the game after 2 or 3 turns.

I think this BUG Delver build is spicy and fantastic. The rhythm is much faster as it replaced Hymm with more counter magic. The challenge for us will be that sometimes we couldn't find a creature when we really need one to finish the game. Also, "the last 1 mile road" is always the problem for BUG colour set, which need more investigation.

Draggo

03-11-2019, 06:46 PM

I think this BUG Delver build is spicy and fantastic. The rhythm is much faster as it replaced Hymm with more counter magic. The challenge for us will be that sometimes we couldn't find a creature when we really need one to finish the game. Also, "the last 1 mile road" is always the problem for BUG colour set, which need more investigation.

Nice write-up.
To me it still seems a bit counter-intuitive to play both discard and stifle in the same list, but at the same time it will catch people off-guard.
Playing only 10 threads and no extra draw spells next to the standard 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder it's no wonder you find yourself lacking a creature once every few games. I think 12 is the minimum without any extra draw spells. Every creature less is more or less +1 or +2 draw/organize effects to make sure you find what you need.
That said, moving one or two of the TNN to main will fix this and it will give you that one creature that would punch trough the last few damage.

Draggo

03-23-2019, 01:23 PM

Took the following list to a 5-round tournament for top 8 and sadly missed it by an inch.

Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Pteramander
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mission Briefing
3 Thoughtseize
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Lands:
9 fetch (4 Delta/4 Misty/1 Catacombs)
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Bitterblossom
1 Dread of Night
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Divert
1 Hydroblast
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Unmoored Ego

Round 1: vs EldraziPost
Game 1
I win the roll and start with Thoughtseize on Chalice seeing 2 TKS, Endbringer and 3 lands.
Followed up by wasting his turn 1 tomb and another land and kept the field clean with FoW and Daze.
2 Delvers beat down meanwhile.
Game 2
I mull to 4 by lacking blue mana.
Thoughtseize Smasher but ended up dying to a Reshaper and TKS.
Game 3
Wierd game. Got a quick Delver down. Second one didn't flip.
I counter some stuff, AssTrophy a Smasher after taking 2 hits and won on the turn 1 Delver with a blind flip.

2-1 win, 1-0-0 in rounds.

Round 2: UR Delver
Game 1
I lost the roll and face down a turn 1 Pteramander.
Thoughtseize away Light Up The Stage on my first turn, seeing also FoW, TNN, Forked Bolt, Ponder, Brainstorm a mountain and a wasteland.
Put in work to keep the TNN off the table. Meanwhile Pteramander boops the face untill it started hitting for 5.
Game 2
I mulled again and we both Delver out. I ended up dying.

0-2 loss, 1-1-0 in rounds.

Round 3: UW Delverblade
Game 1
Lost the roll. For the first dozen of turns I was not allowed to resolve anything.
Facing down a TNN beating me down I managed to resolve a Pteramander. Boost it to 5/5 and race the TNN in 3 turns while I ended at 3 life.
Game 2
Very close game. Took away a SFM in my turn 1 leaving a Spell Snare (while I have AssTrophy on hand), Plow and a Ponder.
I let my first Delver get Plowed and start hitting with the second one.
After a while I get some Goose to stick around, taking a huge time to Trash up.
He get's a Gideon making a token by tapping out. I got this window to AssTrophy the Gideon around his Snare. Then a Jitte got on the token.
Facing 2 small Pteramander that weren't able to up any time soon and 2 Goose, with about 6 cards in the grave.
I got a empty hand, ponder to shuffle and got a TNN, winning me the game trough the Jitte who had 2 counters at that moment.
Topdecking for the win is a thing.

2-0 win, 2-1-0 in rounds.

Round 4: vs Grixis Phoenix
Game 1
Thinking I'm facing Grixis control or Grixis Delver I get hit by the Phoenix combo and die 2 turns later.
Game 2
I got 2 Goose on the table and we both get to do a whole lot of nothing else. The Goose are lose and beat trough to the end.
Game 3
I FoW a turn 1 Ritual and drop a quick Goose.
FoW another Ritual turn 2 and counters and I think a Push prevent anything else from hitting the table.
Goose gets there again.

2-1 win, 3-1-0 in rounds.

Round 5: vs Grixis Delver (had to play it since we both could not draw into the top 8)
Game 1
Some really aggressive wastelanding and counter blattles over Delvers. Then I got hit by Angler and died since my Goose got eaten and I didn't find an AssTrophy.
Game 2
After game 1 I didn't know what Delver version I was facing since I only saw Delver, Angler and Usea paired with Wasteland and counters. Boarded a few cards wrong because of this.
This game was a TNN Showdown. I countered his first TNN just to face his second one and seeing the first one get back with K-Command.
I still won on my own TNN and Goose to threaten the backswing.
Game 3
Stupid close game where he ended on 2 life and I died to a Angler in the end.
Had to pitch my TNN to FoW countering his TNN since mine would land a turn later and lose the race.

1-2 loss, 3-2-0 in rounds.

All in all I'm really pleased with the result. First time taking BUG to a competitive setting and made a few mistakes.
Total of 4 6-card mulls in 12 games (not counting the one game going down to 4 cards). This didn't feel like more times then I'm used to with Grixis Delver.

Goose both surprised me with his shroud power and failed me with his small 3/3 body, or slow 1/1 body.
Same for Pteramander. Loved it since it's an extra blue-card to pitch. Loved it for flying. Loved it for racing a losing game to TNN. It's still a bit of stupid slow if your deck just doesn't do what it should be doing.

The 1-offs were fine. Fluster hit a ton of spells. Mission Briefing was actually nice to be a pseudo-backup-FoW or other stuff.

I still need to get used to not playing Stifle and playing Thoughtseize (and when to keep it and when to side it out)

EDIT: seems I forgot to add the sideboard.

porkypads

03-25-2019, 01:44 PM

Stevestamopz

03-25-2019, 07:37 PM

hey guys, just wondering why leovold isn't considered at all for the 3drop slot over tnn and liliana? my last deck was czech pile with drs and loved leovold in that deck so just trying to understand why people don't like him in this deck. any situations/meta's where you would consider running him?

thanks!

Quickly:

- 3 mana is a lot,
- leovold is a card that is better for midrange strategies
- if you strip their hand/resources with running thoughtseizes and stifles, wouldn't you rather just put them away and win the game instead with a Goyf/Angler?
- Against what decks is leovold good against? I suppose it's fine as a way to help against all the discard in the meta but why is that better than TNN or Lili?
- Again, 3 mana is a lot, especially when you have 4 dazes in your deck and no mana-dorks.

Stevestamopz

06-09-2019, 09:18 AM

Took Bug Delver to the top 8 of Aus Eternal Weekend. Lost in the quarters to SnS but let's not talk about it -_-

I took some notes so will write a report soon.

//Creature (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Gurmag Angler
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

//Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library

//Instant (20)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

//Sorcery (8)
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

//Land (19)
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB: 1 Bitterblossom
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 4 Sinkhole
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Tyrant's Scorn

Wakkz

06-11-2019, 03:48 PM

Some fresh content just released.
https://youtu.be/XQiaHOnrl08

Karlomancer

06-14-2019, 01:31 AM

I'm trying to build a version of this deck that is slightly favored versus Miracles. I'm not really sure where to begin, honestly, but I actually like Thoughtseize over Hymn a lot right now, especially with both Karn and Narset existing. 3 Abrupt Decays also makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside; I love that card. I'm looking to try out Hexdrinker at an Eternal Weekend Trial in two days, and was considering a list that looked something like this:

9 Fetchlands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Hexdrinker
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angelr
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
3 Daze
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will

Changes from the above list:

Changed a Trop into a fetch,
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Gurmag Angler
-1 Daze
-1 Sylvan Library

+ 1 Spell Snare
+ 1 Diabolic Edict
+ 2 Hexdrinker

I don't know if I like having 4 thoughtseizes in the main; it's a lot... I also am less sure of the third angler, I've found Library to be a bit of a brick against Narset and I feel like Daze is worse than it used to be, especially against Miracles and the big mana decks.

Spell Snare hits a surprisingly large number of things these days; I like having an extra removal spell in the main, and I want to try out hexdrinker as an additional aggressive option in the creature suite.

There isn't really a slam-dunk wreck-Miracles card that is maindeckable in these colors, unfortunately. I mean, I guess I could just throw two Narsets into my board and see if it does enough, but IDK if that will get there.

Anyway, if you have an updated sideboard, let me know what you think!

Stevestamopz

06-16-2019, 09:26 AM

https://thesaltminesite.com/2019/06/16/bug-delver-top-8-at-australian-eternal-weekend-deck-discussion/

My report and thoughts on bug as promised.

@Karlomancer
Do not cut Sylvan Library, that card is so powerful right now. We have so many ways to answer Narset, they only have so many ways to deal with Library and if they don't we get to start necroing (aka win)

As for the rest of the changes, if you are going to also play 4 Sinkhole then you shouldn't shave a Daze. I also don't know why you would want to shave Daze when Legacy is so explosive at the moment, I would think we would want more free interaction not less.

Sell me on Hexdrinker cos I don't see it.
I like Spell Snare and I can see playing another removal spell but if I was to do that I would probably play another Dismember or the 4th Decay over Edict.

JayJay2101

07-17-2019, 05:19 PM

And since Legacy is so explosive right now, wouldn't stifle be a powerhouse in a BUG delver list?

Draggo

07-18-2019, 07:21 AM

I'm not sure Stifle is that much of a powerhouse at the moment.
With the coming of Prismatic Vista several decks can find their basic land better and stabilize their mana around wasteland/stifle. Even RUG is playing 3 stifles (next to 1 or 2 Wren&6 to be fair, going on the lists I see in the discord).

Also I think that Assassin’s Trophy is one of the best removal/panic buttons you can have for BUG and it plays a bit awkward next to Stifle. So I rather play Thoughtseize instead. But if you're not on the Trophy-train, it would be fine depending on if you want to play more reactive or pro-active.

Edit:
The list I'm trying at the moment. Really like it so far.

Creatures: 12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Grim Flayer
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells: 29
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Force of Will
1 Force of Negation
4 Daze
2 Spell Snare
3 Thoughtseize
3 Assassin’s Trophy
3 Fatal Push

Lands: 19
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

// sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Dread of Night
1 Unmoored Ego
1 Bitterblossom
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast

Venomous72

07-31-2019, 08:36 AM

So is anyone still jamming some BUG? It is my favorite playstyle (used to play Shardless and BUG Delver back in the day). Tarmogoyf and Decay seem great right now.

07-31-2019, 09:11 AM

So is anyone still jamming some BUG? It is my favorite playstyle (used to play Shardless and BUG Delver back in the day). Tarmogoyf and Decay seem great right now.

While that is true, I think right now, unfortunately, BUG is "suffering" the usual "non-Red problem." Wrenn and Six is really that good, not to mention access to Blasts and possibly Arcanist.

I don't think BUG is terrible, just likely sub-ideal in the meta, right now. You need to really have good reason to not be in Red (if you are in Green) and right now, there isn't seemingly much pay-off for it.

Venomous72

07-31-2019, 09:27 AM

While that is true, I think right now, unfortunately, BUG is "suffering" the usual "non-Red problem." Wrenn and Six is really that good, not to mention access to Blasts and possibly Arcanist.

I don't think BUG is terrible, just likely sub-ideal in the meta, right now. You need to really have good reason to not be in Red (if you are in Green) and right now, there isn't seemingly much pay-off for it.

Yeah I have 4c Pile put together as well, it just feels like such a....meta deck. Like it is really good, but everyone is playing it.

07-31-2019, 09:39 AM

Yeah I have 4c Pile put together as well, it just feels like such a....meta deck. Like it is really good, but everyone is playing it.

Yeah, but does BUG, or TA, really beat that, or the meta? I'm not so sure. While our mana would be marginally better, we, at least in TA, don't run Basics, and so will suffer at the hands of Wrenn and for the lack of our own. If we run Basics, well, we aren't TA and I think we would need a different approach.

Likely something more like this "Snow" list (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2089194#online) that Ark411 has played a bunch of on his stream.

Venomous72

07-31-2019, 09:54 AM

Yeah, but does BUG, or TA, really beat that, or the meta? I'm not so sure. While our mana would be marginally better, we, at least in TA, don't run Basics, and so will suffer at the hands of Wrenn and for the lack of our own. If we run Basics, well, we aren't TA and I think we would need a different approach.

Likely something more like this "Snow" list (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2089194#online) that Ark411 has played a bunch of on his stream.

No I agree with you, I think if you want to play a fair U deck right now, it is 4c Pile, Miracles, or RUG. If W6 wasn't around I would say BUG would be a fine choice but it is so easy to splash for him, and getting access to Punishing Fire, Dack, Wrenn, and Kommand and blasts is pretty darn good

07-31-2019, 10:01 AM

No I agree with you, I think if you want to play a fair U deck right now, it is 4c Pile, Miracles, or RUG. If W6 wasn't around I would say BUG would be a fine choice but it is so easy to splash for him, and getting access to Punishing Fire, Dack, Wrenn, and Kommand and blasts is pretty darn good

I still guess that there may be, once the Wrenn and Six meta slacks (if it does), something to a Hymn-Hexdrinker-Liliana sort of TA deck. But, likely such a thing would really need a DRS surrogate playable mana-creature. Although, even then, that idea might just be better with Red and so Wrenn. That is, if it's even worth trying.

wcm8

04-13-2020, 07:04 PM

Here's the list I've been working on lately:

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Gilded Goose
1 Lotus Petal
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Bitterblossom
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
2 Oko, Thief of Crowns
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Veil of Summer
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push

SB ("all takers"; not heavily meta-gamed):
3 Plague Engineer
1 Null Rod
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Crop Rotation
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Winter Orb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Veil of Summer

Why BUG Delver?

Fairly consistent 5/6 and 6/7 Tarmogoyfs. Access to Black removal and sideboard options. The singletons are insane in the right matchup.

Now, there are some things that look a little weird, but let me explain. The singleton Lotus Petal could just as easily be the 4th Gilded Goose or some other spell, but it's mainly there to grow Goyf and also provide occasional explosive early turns or enable a nuts filter sequence that sets you ahead. I suppose you could try a 2/2 split with Gilded Goose, but you really just need 1 artifact in the bin to reap the rewards. With the filtering provided, usually it's not that unlikely that you'll end up with an artifact or enchantment in the 'yard at some point by the time you've cleared a path for your Goyfs to swing in for the win. Goose is basically a replacement for Deathrite Shaman in this deck; while it lacks aggression, the combo with Oko and incidental lifegain are actually really helpful against Burn and UR Delver, which traditionally are very difficult decks for BUG to handle without a nuts draw. Leovold and Bitterblossom could be other threats if you feel the need, but they're both quite good in a vacuum and do a lot to help out in certain matchups.

You're also capable of efficiently answering other Goyfs and Planeswalkers with the removal suite. Without Bolt and this slightly less aggressive build, you're more likely to end up in the mid or late-game, but that's where you go overhead your opponent's inferior threats (against lower to the ground decks), or you pivot on the Daze/Wasteland and Delver/Goyf beats to close out games quickly against control and combo.

Force of Negation is worth considering, and the singletons in the maindeck could be adjusted around depending on your metagame. But nothing is really useless, aside from the removal against combo decks -- but if you were playing RUG, you'd be siding out your Bolts anyways, so it's generally not that big of a change. It turns out that sometimes Wasteland and Daze and Delver just gives you free wins; hence the focus and direction of this build over a more midrangey build featuring Baleful Strix, Arcum's Astrolabe, etc. You basically want to land an early threat or two, and kick your opponent's ass before they really have the window to come back and stomp you.

We all know how much of a pain opposing Okos and Teferis are, that's why we are running 4x Abrupt Decay if we didn't get the chance to counter them or cut them off 3 mana.

The sideboard could be remixed to your liking; there's plenty of good cards in BUG that you can add as needed to beat whayever flavor of the month you expect to face. Perhaps some more planeswalkers might be worth playing.

wcm8

04-22-2020, 03:54 PM

With some very minor tweaks, this deck can run Lurrus of the Dream-Den. Move the higher CMC permanents to the board, shift some slots around and you're there: an on-curve 3 CMC card advantage "secret 8th card up your sleeve".

Maybe some additional low sacrificable artifacts, e.g. multiple copies of Lotus Petal or Mishra's Bauble or Urza's Bauble, additional copies of Bitterblossom, maybe an Engineered Explosives, etc.

And in the sideboard, Seal of Primordium suddenly seems great.

Perhaps Dark Confidant deserves a slot again? He's best in a lower CMC build anyways.

Alternatively, Hymn to Tourach seems attractive again.

wcm8

04-22-2020, 04:23 PM

Alright, here's a revised list, that I think uses Lurrus to good effect:

19 Lands (3 Sea, 3 Trop, 1 Bayou, 4 Wastelands, 8 fetch)
1 Lotus Petal
4 Gilded Goose (still good at helping you cast all the 2 drops, combos with the Oko in the SB and fits in as a pseudo DRS)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push

*you can cut the Lotus Petal or a gilded goose for a Carpet of Flowers if you expect a lot of Blue. I would lean towards cutting a Goose personally.
*you could cut something for 1 Once Upon a Time -- leaning towards the 3rd Hymn as they bad in topdeck mode.

SB:
1 Lurrus of the Dream-Den
2 Oko, Thief of Crowns
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Plague Engineer
2 Veil of Summer
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Seal of Primordium

Vampire Hexmage also looks good as a way of killing Planeswalkers and some permanents that rely on counters.
Collector Ouphe is great.

wcm8

04-28-2020, 02:03 AM

Main adjustment is to drop Gilded Goose and run... Nimble Mongoose in its place. Goose for goose.

The mana ramp isn’t as essential when the main consists of a much lower curve; as good as Bauble is I still like Lotus Petal for how it combos with Lurrus and the rest of the deck’s 2 drops. Cut something for a second, and possibly 3rd copy.

04-29-2020, 09:25 AM

While I love Hymn, discard might not be ideal now.

From Discord user zerzab11:
https://i.imgur.com/fZQ9Ubq.jpg

Some people are reporting good results with the list.

05-07-2020, 11:53 AM

In DTB now, since it's a delver deck that can sport Lurrus.

As an example, Julian23 7-0 in the Super Qualifier (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2976952):

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Tarmogoyf

4 Ponder
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Fatal Push
1 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

4 Mishra's Bauble

1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Force of Negation
1 Spell Pierce
1 Bitterblossom
1 Dead Weight
1 Flusterstorm
1 Lurrus of the Dream Den
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Null Rod
2 Winter Orb

Return of Mongoose and Stifle!

wcm8

05-19-2020, 10:36 AM

So, I think Nimble Mongoose really deserves the slot in BUG tempo now. Justifications:

1. This deck benefits from having an additional 1 drop threat to go alongside Delver. It helps play into the tempo angle. If you aren’t about this and want to play a grindier midrange strategy, you can definitely do that in BUG colors, but it’s not really BUG tempo anymore. It was always a card I considered, but most conventional lists eschewed it for alternatives, e.g. DRS in that era. But now, I can’t really think of a superior 1-drop for this deck.

2. Mongoose has become fantastic in the format now with the ubiquity of cheap removal in all colors as well as repeatable removal in the form of Planeswalkers (most popular right now, Oko.) Since Liliana of the Veil and edict effects in general are at all time low, a shrouded threat is even better.

3. There’s no tension with Tarmogoyf, and in fact, the ‘tap out’ versions of this deck have no trouble achieving and maintaining threshold in short order. Goose never gets better than 3/3 shroud, but the problem with Hexdrinker is that its not safe during its initial 2/1 phase, and is not really as good in BUG specifically as we lack Bolts, and thus are not trying to race to 20 damage as quickly as the RUG cousin deck.

The main problem that this deck seems to run into is a creature wall: Baleful Strix and Icefang Coatl are particularly troublesome as they are a 2-for-1. The solution I think is running 3 copies of Plague Engineer (I have them in the board now), so you can just clear the board of these permanents in one fell swoop. Plague Engineer is just simply fantastic in plenty of matchups as well, and handles the creature token problem quite nicely.

In the post-Lurrus metagame, I expect to see an increase in the 80 card companion decks, these being UWgx midrange slugfests. A card that I’ve considered running again is Hymn to Tourach. Generally, the card Veil of Summer is still relegated to sideboards, and if a deck is forced to run 80 cards, then it’s even more unlikely that they will see one in time. I still think playing Mindtwist is a powerful thing to do be doing, and it’s fairly rare that it’s not great against the majority of matchups.

I’m running 2 copies of Oko myself in the main, along with 1 copy of the UG titan. Otherwise, the main 60 is comprised of mostly one and two drops. I think this deck will still have a place in the new metagame, as it has all the tools necessary at its disposal to beat whatever comes its way. Plus, GB removal (decay and trophy) are just so versatile; this deck doesn’t just roll over and die to a resolved permanent like RUG can tend to.

05-19-2020, 10:47 AM

Hmm, interesting points. It does seem that, at least from a historical point of view, that Mongoose does better in Stifle versions rather than Hymn ones though.

As you say though, Strix/Coatl's are a problem and one "issue" for Hymn is that it can never actually get rid of Yorion itself. The best case is that you screw them early on mana with a Hymn and then win quickly. In that sense, you might want to build for speed and less for mid-range slugfests. The thing is that all the deathtouch makes it hard to do that. Maybe a combination of Spell Snares and Pierces would be good. But all of this is leading right back to wanting Stifle over Hymn, at least, in theory.

Hard to say though, we will have to see how the Yorion decks shape up though.

wcm8

05-19-2020, 11:24 AM

It’s possible that Snare is nuts right now; years ago I spiked a fairly large legacy tournament running RUG where I played ZERO copies of Stifle, and FOUR of Spell Snare. Stifle is even better when you don’t have to waste a slot playing it, and Snare is a hard counter to plenty of problems and makes being on the draw a whole lot better.

I think you could justifiably cut Hymn and instead go full Blue with the permission element of the deck, and have a great deck. I am not entirely sure if Stifle is essential though. Don’t get me wrong; I’ve played it and have done well with it in the past, but I am not so sure that it’s really so essential for this kind of deck.

Alternatively, perhaps a Stifle + Sinkhole build? But Sinkhole just isn’t quite the card it used to be.

And it’s also possible that we may see Astrolabe, Yorion, and maybe even Oko get the axe in the next Format update.

Regardless, here’s the list I’ll be jamming for now, updates to come later:

19 lands (8 fetch, 3/3/1 sea/trip/bayou; 4 wastes)
1 Sylvan Library
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 Daze
4 FoWill
4 ADecay
2 FoNegation
2 Oko, thief of crowns
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Delver
4 mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

Sideboard:
3 plague engineer
2 veil of summer
1 flusterstorm
1 winter orb
1 leovold
1 seal of primordium (holdover from Lurrus; still a solid card and Goyf food — nice to have a preemptive out to Blood Moon too)
1 null Rod (the ouphe is much easier to kill; plus you can cast this off non green lands)
1 engineered explosives
1 scavenging ooze
1 nihil spellbomb
1 cling to dust
1 grafdigger’s cage

I cut bitterlbossom from the main 60 but this might be wrong. Perhaps trade it with Sylvan Library. You could also consider the UG titan, but then you might end up with a bunch of 3 drops clogging your hand — and the card is only great if you get to actually unleash it.

ADecay addresses mostly anything that gets thru your counter magic. This deck has a superior matchup against most combo decks than RUG, and also seems to have a better late game in general too.

If you’re not playing Hymn (or some sort of targeted discard spell), why play black at all? Decay is good too, but again, if the incentive isn’t there to play black, RUG is just better generally thanks to Bolt and Pyroblast in the sideboard.

Some other cards I’ve considered: Dark Confidant

Cursed Scroll — so good in the mid and late game. Can address the issue of a stalled board and is often hard for non BUG decks to remove, especially game 1. Might be “too cute” though. Seems better than Aelopile due to the reusability. BUG tends to get hellbent by mid/late game, so activating it reliably isn’t that tough.

wcm8

05-19-2020, 11:36 AM

I should probably also mention, running Hymn, the deck likely wants to go back to 20 lands. So perhaps cutting the 2nd FoNegation for another fetch or the 4th Underground Sea.

Alternatively, just run Inquisition of Kozilek and/or thoughtseize instead (leaning towards IoK tbh, as burn is a problem). There is definitely a tension between Mongoose and Hymn, as generally you’d prefer Sea to be your first land drop, not tropical (and almost never bayou, unless you really have no option).

Targeted discard provides information too, which will help out with sequencing your plays too. Plus you can selectively nab whatever card is problematic for the current situation.

05-19-2020, 11:41 AM

I should probably also mention, running Hymn, the deck likely wants to go back to 20 lands. So perhaps cutting the 2nd FoNegation for another fetch or the 4th Underground Sea.

Yeah, I was just about to mention that. Even when we ran 4 DRS, and had 1 Lili and 3-4 Hymns, we were on 20 lands. And that was 4 Seas, 2 Bayou and only 1 Trop.

Now, Wasteland is a little less prevalent now, but it is still "safer" I think, to go 20 and board one out when you won't need the one.

wcm8

05-21-2020, 09:45 PM

Honestly dudes, the format is destabilized by the presence of Oko. I think there was a window of time when BUG Delver was far and away the BEST deck thanks to its ability to integrate Lurrus, but that time is ended.

It is very hard now to justify running this version of BUG over RUG (which in addition to Oko, gets Bolts, Blasts, Uro, and Klothys, God of Destiny), it also can’t quite compete with the midrange redundancy of the 80 card Yorion Snowko lists. For an example of that:

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Oko, Thief of Crowns
4 Baleful Strix
4 Ice-Fang Coatl
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Preordain
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Abundant Growth
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Snow-Covered Forest
6 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea

Sideboard
1 Force of Negation
3 Dead of Winter
4 Meddling Mage
3 Null Rod
3 Veil of Summer
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

I think you can do well with a BUG deck, but the lists going forward are going to need a way of getting ahead of this deck specifically, at least until the next format update. I don’t think Hymn will really do that, as there is just so much card advantage and all your work can be undone by a resolved Yorion (which will flash all of their cantripping permanents and draw them a new hand).

The irony is that Pyroblast is the best card against this sort of deck, as it answers the majority of the problematic cards.

Spell Snare is quite powerful now as well. I suppose BUG does have the advantage of answering a resolved Oko a tad easier than RUG’s Bolts, but Decay can’t pivot and attack the opponent’s life total if you need to race.

One alternative approach is to go midrange-y by running 4 Gilded Goose and playing 4 color. Goose will help you resolve more 2 and 3 drops faster than your opponent (as well as play thru opposing Daze), and fixes your mana as well as becoming an Elk later on and/or generating life gain over time. Green/Blue would be the primary colors, so I’m envisioning a deck running 4 tropical island, and then a 2/2 split of Volcanic Island and Underground sea. Then you get all of the ridiculous top end (Oko, Uro, Klothys), but can run Bolt AND Decay, as well as Black AND Red sideboard options.

It might be worth it to run a Basic Forest in the sideboard as well (and therefore, running 4 Misty Rainforest and 4 other Green/X fetches) just to ensure you can fetch out a forest and be able to cast some of your important spells through a resolved Blood Moon, or insurance against Wasteland.

Without having to overstuff the deck to 80, your silver bullets and sideboard also takes on much more value.

Here’s what I’m thinking as a starting point:

20 lands (4 waste, 4 trop, 2/2 sea/volc; 8 fetch)
4 Gilded Goose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Sylvan Library
3 Oko
1 Klothys
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay (functions as “counter” to whatever gets thru standard counterspells)
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Sideboard:
3 Pyro/REB
2 Veil of Summer
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Cling to Dust
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Plague Engineer
1 Leovold
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb

Plague Engineer seems like a fairly good way of clearing the path against Strix/Coatl, as well as just destroying certain other decks (Elves, DnT by naming Human, etc.)

I went a bit heavy in the sideboard on certain cards and graveyard hate, you could adjust these slots around and play basically whatever you wanted.

BKclassic

05-22-2020, 10:30 AM

wcm8

05-22-2020, 04:51 PM

@wcm8
I feel like Oko is the easiest part of these Snowko decks to deal with. What's hard to deal with is a wall of Strixes into Uro. At least you typically have a whole turn to answer Oko without losing card advantage. With your BURG list, you've got your three Oko's and Klothys maybe accelerated out by Goose but I'm not sure how great this really is against their wall of Strixes and removal (Klothys does seem pretty sweet but I'm not sure it can beat Snowko on it's own). It seems like the incentives are to go low with Delver and Stifle or go midrange with Snowko, I'm not sure how great straddling the middle is going to be. It's hard for me to imagine that Stifle isn't the card to be paired with Delver right now but I hope you figure something out. If I was running BUG I think Painful Truth's in the sideboard seems like the best way to make up ground against Snowko.

Yes, that all seems very reasonable. And that's why I think RUG Delver is probably the best tempo deck right now. BUG doesn't seem as well equipped to just race the life totals. Red also has some very cheap and effective spells that clear the entire board of X/1 critters, e.g. Electrickery and that other Sorcery card (the name I forget, I think Instant speed is probably more important). Plus, you get Pyroblast, and still have access to a bunch of totally absurd value cards.

Probably, Gilded Goose is not good enough to justify just running Mongoose of your own.

I think you could basically run RUG Delver, with perhaps one or two Underground Sea in order to get access to Abrupt Decay and Black sideboard options if you really wanted.

The RUG delver lists that are doing well resemble the following. Some variables include fitting in some number of Chain Lightning or other cheap removal, mixing up the creature base (some are running no Mongoose, and instead copies of Hooting Mandrills and/or Hexdrinker), variable numbers of counterspells and permission, and also sometimes you see a singleton Sylvan Library or the 9th cantrip (typically it's Preordain).

So:

18-19 Lands
4 Mongoose
4 Delver
4 Goyf
1 TNN // Scavenging Ooze // Brazen Borrower
2 Oko
1 Klothys
4 Daze
4 FoW
4-5 Stifle // Spell Snare // Spell Pierce // Force of Negation // Flusterstorm
0-2 Chain Lightning
0-1 Sylvan Library // Preordain
4 Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

The best thing that Black is offering right now is Abrupt Decay. It gets you out of a TON of troublesome situations, and aside from Veil of Summer (which lately tends to just be in the sideboard, and often only as a 2-of), it can't really be answered. It provides an elegant solution to most of the problematic cards in the format. I like Fatal Push, but it's just DEAD against combo decks and only marginally useful against control decks. I'd much rather run Bolts, as at least they help you race. It's true that a resolved Tarmogoyf can be a problem, but that's also why perhaps a singleton Scavenging Ooze may be worth running somewhere in the 75, as a way of going above your opponent's own Goyfs.

I also really like Plague Engineer and Bitterblossom, but aside from those, most of what Black has on offer can be achieved similarly in RUG's pool of cards. Liliana and other Black planeswalkers aren't really strong enough in comparison to Oko (which is like a one-card combo; he can end the game all on his own and also can help stabilize against an opponent if you can protect him well. That's why I think Force of Negation and perhaps Flusterstorm are worth running alongside him). And I also think that Klothys is a maindeck-worthy inclusion as both a late/mid-game finisher, as well as a disruptive element against decks that utilize the graveyard in some form or fashion. It's legendary and costs quite a bit, so I would not really want to run more than 1, but if it lands it provides so much value and can end the game. It's also really difficult to deal aside from on the stack, so it's better than Sulfuric Vortex as well. You'll basically never turn it into a creature, so it dodges Swords to Plowshares 99.9% of the time too.

Idk, it's just a very frustrating time to be playing Legacy. So much of the draw was having a variety of archetypes that each had justifiable reasons to run one over the other. Lately though it just seems that there's no reason to justify BUG over RUG if you're playing tempo. Perhaps losing Oko and/or Astrolabe (and Yorin) would shake up the format again. I'm not sure why they didn't just hit ALL companions in one fell swoop; 80 cards is hardly an issue when you have plenty of duplicate options.

Oh, and here's a possible suggestion for beating the wall of X/1 critters with RUG: GRIM LAVAMANCER, and/or CURSED SCROLL.

With the former you probably dump Mongoose and just run it in that slot; probably running some number of Hooting Mandrills and/or Hexdrinker as well since they don't care about Threshold. The Lavamancers can clear the way for your other dudes, or just throw chunks of 2 damage at your opponents face. Cursed Scroll is probably just too expensive for RUG to be activating, but has the advantage of not interfering with your own creature base and there are plenty of scenarios in the mid/late game where you only have 1 card in hand and enough mana to activate it every turn. If it gets countered/destroyed, at least you grow your Goyf. Both of these are main-deckable and especially good against some other matchups like Elves, D&T, Infect, etc.