[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[Unassigned]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78247


Sultai Delver
John Wiley
14th Place at StarCityGames.com Premier IQ on 1/4/2015


Creatures (14)

2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Lands (18)

4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Spells (28)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Arcane Laboratory
3 Disfigure
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse

[exallium]

2 Phyrexian Dreadnought

This feels like an attempt to solve the "Threat light" issue some have with current TA iterations, given we've cut Tombstalker because drawing 3 is better. I'm not sure how I feel about needing to draw 2 / 6 cards in order to be able to stick a dreadnaught, which could subsequently die to abrupt decay or other forms of cheap removal. (Flickerwisp, Swords, Wear // Tear, etc.). It can definitely catch people off guard, but it also enables spell pierce as a counterspell for it, and makes you less likely to use your stifles on other things, like fetches, miracle triggers, and whatever else. Basically, without stifle in hand, it's a dead card, and with stifle in hand, you need to resolve both this and the stifle in order to get it into play.

I will admit that if you manage to get it into play vs UR delver, it's likely lights out.

[KobeBryan]

This feels like an attempt to solve the "Threat light" issue some have with current TA iterations, given we've cut Tombstalker because drawing 3 is better. I'm not sure how I feel about needing to draw 2 / 6 cards in order to be able to stick a dreadnaught, which could subsequently die to abrupt decay or other forms of cheap removal. (Flickerwisp, Swords, Wear // Tear, etc.). It can definitely catch people off guard, but it also enables spell pierce as a counterspell for it, and makes you less likely to use your stifles on other things, like fetches, miracle triggers, and whatever else. Basically, without stifle in hand, it's a dead card, and with stifle in hand, you need to resolve both this and the stifle in order to get it into play.

I will admit that if you manage to get it into play vs UR delver, it's likely lights out.

I think it was meant for the UR delver matchup.

then again, stifle is horrendous vs. UR delver. So i don't even know if you want to keep that in after game 1

[Asthereal]

(Something that criticizes Phyrexian Dreadnought in TA)

I will admit that if you manage to get it into play vs UR delver, it's likely lights out.
Yep. Unless they adopt my Repeal tech. In that case 'Nought looks rather silly. :cool:

I do like your 75 though. The main is my exact 60, and on side we just differ a Rod for an Envelop. :smile:

[exallium]

Yep. Unless they adopt my Repeal tech. In that case 'Nought looks rather silly. :cool:

I do like your 75 though. The main is my exact 60, and on side we just differ a Rod for an Envelop. :smile:

Pretty sure I just stole your list and then realized i didn't have a 2nd envelop. ;)

[Lemnear]

Toying with the following:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True Name Nemesis
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
4 Creeping Tar Pit

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise

Essentially, I don't believe that Treasure Cruise makes Hymn unplayable. Just because an opposing TC can undo a Hymn does not mean we can't run away with our own TC right after!

Hymn plus TC is insane back to back cardadvantage and because of the low manacurve in the format, I decided to cut the Wastelands for more virtual threats in Form of Tar Pits to aid the TNNs as unblockable attackers and to mess with Miracles. Tar Pits are annoying to handle for your opponent if in topdeck mode no matter the presence of Bolts these days, thanks to Hymn and Liliana. Wasteland is also not that common these days. I sure don't have to mention Lilianas interaction with additional copies of Hymn and TC.

I'm in an early testing stage with this "unblockable attackers" plus Hymn + TC dreamteam approach, so I'm open for critique

[btm10]

I think it was meant for the UR delver matchup.

then again, stifle is horrendous vs. UR delver. So i don't even know if you want to keep that in after game 1

UR Delver is one of the only matchups where I want Stifle over Thoughtseize. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.


Toying with the following:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True Name Nemesis
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
4 Creeping Tar Pit

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise

Essentially, I don't believe that Treasure Cruise makes Hymn unplayable. Just because an opposing TC can undo a Hymn does not mean we can't run away with our own TC right after!

Hymn plus TC is insane back to back cardadvantage and because of the low manacurve in the format, I decided to cut the Wastelands for more virtual threats in Form of Tar Pits to aid the TNNs as unblockable attackers and to mess with Miracles. Tar Pits are annoying to handle for your opponent if in topdeck mode no matter the presence of Bolts these days, thanks to Hymn and Liliana. Wasteland is also not that common these days. I sure don't have to mention Lilianas interaction with additional copies of Hymn and TC.

I'm in an early testing stage with this "unblockable attackers" plus Hymn + TC dreamteam approach, so I'm open for critique

I think the unblockable dudes + Hymn + Cruise idea might work, in a more midrange-control type shell. I'm not a fan of 6 three-drops plus 4 CIPT lands (with a three mana activated ability) and Daze in the same deck - it really pulls you in two different directions, even with DRS. This might be a result of you looking at a European metagame rather than a North American one, but your list seems great against Miracles and very rough against other Delver decks.

[KobeBryan]

UR Delver is one of the only matchups where I want Stifle over Thoughtseize. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.



I think the unblockable dudes + Hymn + Cruise idea might work, in a more midrange-control type shell. I'm not a fan of 6 three-drops plus 4 CIPT lands (with a three mana activated ability) and Daze in the same deck - it really pulls you in two different directions, even with DRS. This might be a result of you looking at a European metagame rather than a North American one, but your list seems great against Miracles and very rough against other Delver decks.

i don;t run thoughtseize and stifle is lackluster in that matchup. My deck plays like RUG.

so stifle doesn't do anything for me except protect against wastelands (which they don't run) or stifle a fetchland, (which doesn't really hurt their manabase since they only run on 1 land.

and how are you able to fit both thoughtseize and stifle in the deck...it occupies the same slot

[Asthereal]

Pretty sure I just stole your list and then realized i didn't have a 2nd envelop. ;)
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

When I get me some of those fringe commons, I try to always just get a playset.
You never know when you need more, or maybe even all of them. :wink:

[btm10]

i don;t run thoughtseize and stifle is lackluster in that matchup. My deck plays like RUG.

so stifle doesn't do anything for me except protect against wastelands (which they don't run) or stifle a fetchland, (which doesn't really hurt their manabase since they only run on 1 land.

They can sort of operate on one land, but they're considerably less efficient. It also lets you Daze their cantrips and any threats they try to play. You can also use Stifle to counter Pyromancer and Swiftspear triggers, and that's far from irrelevant.





and how are you able to fit both thoughtseize and stifle in the deck...it occupies the same slot

I'm not playing both. I've played both configurations.

[ORDAL]

UR Delver is one of the only matchups where I want Stifle over Thoughtseize. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.





Really? stifle is the most dead card vs ur, i always side out that. thought is bad too. but i prefer thought, yes you take 2 dmg but can took: bolt (-1dmg), pop, some creature and the most importat card treasure

[phazonmutant]

Toying with the following:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True Name Nemesis
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
4 Creeping Tar Pit

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise

Essentially, I don't believe that Treasure Cruise makes Hymn unplayable. Just because an opposing TC can undo a Hymn does not mean we can't run away with our own TC right after!

Hymn plus TC is insane back to back cardadvantage and because of the low manacurve in the format, I decided to cut the Wastelands for more virtual threats in Form of Tar Pits to aid the TNNs as unblockable attackers and to mess with Miracles. Tar Pits are annoying to handle for your opponent if in topdeck mode no matter the presence of Bolts these days, thanks to Hymn and Liliana. Wasteland is also not that common these days. I sure don't have to mention Lilianas interaction with additional copies of Hymn and TC.

I'm in an early testing stage with this "unblockable attackers" plus Hymn + TC dreamteam approach, so I'm open for critique

I agree that Hymn is still a perfectly valid plan, but 4 Creeping Tar Pits is insanity. That card is fine against Miracles, although they have more than enough ways to kill it. I've been happy with it as a 1-of to bump the land count, and I can see as a 2-of. It really hurts casting all the 3 drops though, and what's worse, you're playing 4 Daze. Daze isn't even that good any more! I really don't get running Hymn but no Wasteland - part of why Hymn is so good is because it can hit lands. The entire deck doesn't really make sense as a whole.

[KobeBryan]

Really? stifle is the most dead card vs ur, i always side out that. thought is bad too. but i prefer thought, yes you take 2 dmg but can took: bolt (-1dmg), pop, some creature and the most importat card treasure

yea. stifle is force of will fodder.

[Poron]

joking right?
Next meta is flooded with 1/1s everywhere.
Propaganda can be one of the strongest card around.
It pitches to FoW, it requires only 1 colored mana. It is of the right color for everything.

Stifle on their fetches can leave them with 1 land for long part of the game. 2 at best for still a lot of time.

They pack 3 basic lands 4 non basics and just fetches.. Stifle + Wastelands are a massacre in UR matchup.

Burns are everywhere as well, I'm positive that low loyalty counters planeswalker are way too cute for next meta.

[Lemnear]

I agree that Hymn is still a perfectly valid plan, but 4 Creeping Tar Pits is insanity. That card is fine against Miracles, although they have more than enough ways to kill it. I've been happy with it as a 1-of to bump the land count, and I can see as a 2-of. It really hurts casting all the 3 drops though, and what's worse, you're playing 4 Daze. Daze isn't even that good any more! I really don't get running Hymn but no Wasteland - part of why Hymn is so good is because it can hit lands. The entire deck doesn't really make sense as a whole.

The question for me was if the mana denial is a valid plan now that people play plenty of lands and basics. I don't think so, so I just looked at Hymn to get rid of opponents business and Force them into the topdeck mode while I Cruise through the deck and play unblockable threats. I had Pit in mind for providing the double Black and doubling also as a kill option which Wasteland can't. I may overdid it here. I see no value in running a manadenial package over a threat-denial package in the current metagame. I guess you guys are right about Daze. My midrange build is no shell for tempo Elements. Thx for the feedback

[KobeBryan]

joking right?
Next meta is flooded with 1/1s everywhere.
Propaganda can be one of the strongest card around.
It pitches to FoW, it requires only 1 colored mana. It is of the right color for everything.

Stifle on their fetches can leave them with 1 land for long part of the game. 2 at best for still a lot of time.

They pack 3 basic lands 4 non basics and just fetches.. Stifle + Wastelands are a massacre in UR matchup.

Burns are everywhere as well, I'm positive that low loyalty counters planeswalker are way too cute for next meta.

Sorry, I don't agree. My brother has this deck and I regularly practice against it.

Stifle is one of the worst cards in the deck. they dont run wastelands so its 2-4 volcs, 10 fetches, and 3-5 basics. With the amount of cantrips, (i believe 12), they will find their land with ease even if you try to stifle/waste them out of the game.

Once they get their 1-2 lands (basic mountain, basic island) in play, its smooth sailing. for me, stifle goes out, a waste goes out, in comes disfigure, golgari charm, 1 spell pierce. Other than that, this match is not easy

[philipneri]

Howdy. I am Modern player who is trying to transition into Legacy. My LGS is starting weekly Sunday Legacy events (with 18 proxies) next week. So I am proxying up Underground Seas, Tropical Islands, and Wastelands and trying this deck out.

I see some of you are running Thoughtseizes MD with Spell Pierces in the SB. And others are running Spell Pierces MD with no Thoughtseizes anywhere in the 75. I own playsets of both cards so I can go with either configuration. I have no idea what my LGS's meta will be like. I have never seriously really played Legacy before. Which version do you all recommend for me? Is one of the two "easier" or "more forgiving" for a newb like me?

Thank you in advance.

[paeng4983]

Howdy. I am Modern player who is trying to transition into Legacy.
I have never seriously really played Legacy before. Which version do you all recommend for me?

Thank you in advance.

Safest would be, a set of Thoughtseize.

[exallium]

I agree. Thoughtsieze is the safer option if you are newer, and it is the more powerful card. It really depends, to me, on your meta, and I don't really like thoughtsieze in a sea of delver decks. Spell Pierce should definitely find a home in your board though, as it's really well placed for BUG delver in the meta at present. It's great vs. Miracles and Storm, and can do work vs. UR delver in combination with wasteland. Just, as should go without saying, make sure you write down the information you get from sieze, as it's probably the most important part of the card early on, that and perhaps sniping a threat.

[philipneri]

Okay, thanks for the tips. I will write again on Sunday and let you know how it went.

[Fallacy]

Hey All, just wanted to report on my testing a week ago. Here is the list I played:

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf

4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
3 TCruise

4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW

3 UG Sea
3 Trop
4 Wastland
9 Fetch

Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 GD Cage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
2 V Clique

MU's were against Maverick, D&T, Miracles, Elves, Bant Stoneblade, Infect, Sneak & Show, Food Chain, UR Delver, and Charbelcher. I most cases we played full matches, but in others we only played 2 games.

Round 1: Maverick (1-1)
Game 1 loss. Maverick can be annoying, especially if a Thalia lands. Lost to a huge Ooze, amongst a load of other creatures. If Ooze gets out of control I've found it really sets us back (Goyf shrinks, DRS has less targets, and Cruise becomes waay more difficult to play when you need it most). Thoughtseize has been great at ripping an equipement. Preboard it's tough but the 2 MB Disfigures helped.
Game 2 win. Postboard we're really well positioned with loads of removal. Delver is fantastic in this MU.

Round 2: Death & Taxes (2-0)
Game 1 win. Delver beats with DRS, and MB Disfigue's + Abrupt Decay destroy this deck.
Game 2 win. Null Rod completely hoses D&T. Turn 1 Null Rod and coast to victory.

Round 3: Miracles (1-1)
Game 1 loss. Countertop lock ASAP without necessary counterspells or AD.
Game 2 win. Early Goyf gets ahead, plus lots of DRS damage pulls through before they get their crucial spells. I feel had we played a third game the SB would pull through. Seems like a decent MU.

Round 4: Elves (1-1)
Game 1 loss. Not much to say here, didn't have the nut anti-elves opener.
Game 2 win. Disfigure was good, Golgari Charm was MVP. Charm just stops them, especially if we have a Delver in play to keep the air attacks. I got an early GD Cage going too. SB cards really give us a fair shot in this MU. I would consider mulliganing to find a Golgari Charm in this MU.

Round 5: Bant Stoneblade (0-2) We chose to play without SB's to test his MB. That said, we have no game against a resolved TNN w/o Golgari Charm.
Game 1 loss. TNN = loss.
Game 2 loss. TNN = loss. In the future I would rather deal with an equipment versus a TNN in this MU, so saving a FoW for TNN could be a good idea.

Round 6: Infect (2-0)
Game 1 win. T1 Delver, with AD and FoW backup was easy. Wasteland wrecks this deck.
Game 2 win. Game 2 went same as game 1. Early Delver with Daze and FoW.

Round 7: Sneak & Show (3-0) We played a regular match, but played 1 more postboard for fun.
Game 1 win. Delver plus counterspells and Thoughtseize, easy win.
Game 2 win. Delver plus Flusterstorm and FoW, easy win.
Game 3 win. Thoughtseize and counterspells with Delver in play, seems to be a common theme. Maybe it was luck but my list just walked all over Sneak & Show.

Round 8: Food Chain (1-2) Wasn't really sure how to play against this deck since I've only seen it once prior.
Game 1 loss. Misthallow Griffin was tough to deal with, I don't rememeber the rest.
Game 2 win. Thoughseize and counterspells with a Goyf in play, if I remember correctly.
Game 3 loss. Things were looking great until I drew 3 DRS in a row...

Round 9: UR Delver (2-1)
Game 1 win. Goyf and Cruise.
Game 2 loss. Drew 5 lands in a row, so there was no way about this game.
Game 3 win. Goyf and Cruise, again, Cruise was necessary to maintain speed against this deck. I think we've got really good game in this MU. Game 2 was starting to look good until the 5 land draws :(

Round 10: Charbelcher (2-1)
Game 1 loss. Didn't know I was playing against an opponent who could combo T1 when they're on the play. Did not have the opener FoW.
Game 2 win. Loads of SB hate with Flusterstorm and Pierce, behind a Goyf makes this MU easy.
Game 3 win. Easy win, same as Game 2.

To summarize, I am very satisfied with Team America in this current time. I used all my SB options over the course of the day. At this point I would not change a thing with my list, even if I was going to a large event or into an unknown meta. MB/SB split seems correct between some amount of Disfigures and Spell Pierces. I recently added the 2 Flusterstorms, and I used them more than I expected. I'm loving the low mana curve and the ability to play ahead or be more reactive as necessary. Try this list out, hopefully you'll find the same success!

[exallium]

That's quite a Gauntlet! Thanks for sharing! I'm going to take BUG Delver to our local legacy night tonight... should be about 12 people. I think I'm going to go the thoughtsieze route, as I think it's better in the expected meta of: Lands, Elves, Miracles, Death and Taxes, UWR Pyroblade, MUD, TA, Sneak & Show, and Possibly storm. Thoughts? (from anyone)

I'm thinking this list:

-- 12 dudes
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Delver

-- 29 things
1 Sylvan Library
3 Cruise
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

-- 19 land
4 Wasteland
3 Sea
3 Trop
3 Delta
1 Tarn
2 Misty
3 Verdant

-- SB
1 Null Rod
1 Envelop
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Disfigure
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce

I've put 3 pierces in the sideboard, replacing flusterstorms and a kgrip, since I also have null rod, and dropped 3 siezes into the main deck.

[Fallacy]

It's defensible, but I could see the Library going into the SB and bringing up a Pierce, and the reason I say that is when I used to play Library it was an additional tool to search for specific cards that came from the SB. I feel the MB is perfect for cantripping and shuffle effects. The MB Pierce would give you some extra game in those decks you listed.

One SB comment based on my testing is adding the 4th Thoughtseize to the SB. I find myself bringing in that 4th TS more often than not, and against equipment decks, ripping a Cruise, TNN, Combo, and just PITA cards like Thalia it's been great. That's my plug for the full TS suite in the 75.

[exallium]

It's defensible, but I could see the Library going into the SB and bringing up a Pierce, and the reason I say that is when I used to play Library it was an additional tool to search for specific cards that came from the SB. I feel the MB is perfect for cantripping and shuffle effects. The MB Pierce would give you some extra game in those decks you listed.

One SB comment based on my testing is adding the 4th Thoughtseize to the SB. I find myself bringing in that 4th TS more often than not, and against equipment decks, ripping a Cruise, TNN, Combo, and just PITA cards like Thalia it's been great. That's my plug for the full TS suite in the 75.

I think thoughtsieze can be fit in in place of Envelop, as it would come in in similar matchups (Miracles, Storm).

[Asthereal]

I think I'm going to go the thoughtsieze route, as I think it's better in the expected meta of: Lands, Elves, Miracles, Death and Taxes, UWR Pyroblade, MUD, TA, Sneak & Show, and Possibly storm. Thoughts? (from anyone)

I'm thinking this list:

-- 12 dudes
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Delver

-- 29 things
1 Sylvan Library
3 Cruise
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

-- 19 land
4 Wasteland
3 Sea
3 Trop
3 Delta
1 Tarn
2 Misty
3 Verdant

-- SB
1 Null Rod
1 Envelop
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Disfigure
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce

I've put 3 pierces in the sideboard, replacing flusterstorms and a kgrip, since I also have null rod, and dropped 3 siezes into the main deck.
I only have a suggestion for the mana base: -1 fetch +1 Sea.
With Seize you often need black on turn one, and Seizes cost life, so having a fetch less can be a good idea.
At least, that'd be my reasoning. 9x fetch can help feed Cruises though, if you don't care about the life loss.

[exallium]

Unfortunately I do not own a 4th sea... Its either a bayou or a fetch for now [emoji14]

[Asthereal]

Unfortunately I do not own a 4th sea... Its either a bayou or a fetch for now [emoji14]
LOL okay in that case I'd stick with the fetch.
The current list doesn't need Bayou, and having it as your only land in your opener is of course pretty terrible. :cool:

[exallium]

LOL okay in that case I'd stick with the fetch.
The current list doesn't need Bayou, and having it as your only land in your opener is of course pretty terrible. :cool:
I'll look into acquiring one sometime this quarter ;) I've got a buddy who owes me some cardboard.

[Asthereal]

I'll look into acquiring one sometime this quarter ;) I've got a buddy who owes me some cardboard.
No rush. In the Blue Overload list with many U costing counters 3x Sea, 3x Trop is probably optimal. :smile:

[exallium]

No rush. In the Blue Overload list with many U costing counters 3x Sea, 3x Trop is probably optimal. :smile:

EDIT: Yup. Found one I can get my hands on tonight ;) 4 Seas MD it is!

[Sturtzilla]

Hey All,

It has been awhile since my last post. I played BUG Delver at locals this week to a 3-1 finish. I went (2-0) against Lands, (2-0) against Infect, (0-2) against Pyroblade, and (2-1) in the BUG Delver pseudo mirror. I tweaked the maindeck from previous configurations to be better equipped to deal with the rise in Baneslayer Angels in my local meta. Here is the list that I ran.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Disfigure
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip
1 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique

I don't remember the 60th card.... I will add it next time that I am home. Dismember over performed. I was able to kill Tarmogoyfs and Quirion Dryads in the pseudo-mirror. It was also great against the infect deck giving not only a way to kill guys but also a way to reduce incoming poison counters. I had played three UWR Stoneblade decks the previous week and found myself facing a number of Baneslayers... so the reason this card was included wasn't even faced. Dismember is probably a bit slow versus UR Delver but it has plenty of match ups where it is great. I decided for Dread of Night in the board as there were 2 Death and taxes decks in the field of 15 players. I really was hoping to get a better feel for the Spell Snare... but unfortunately I only saw it once or twice over the course of the event. Once it was pitched to a FoW and the other time it was not needed to win the game... although it may have helped it the game was to continue. I will probably tweak the list a little bit but it felt pretty good in the current meta game.

[Asthereal]

I don't remember the 60th card.... I will add it next time that I am home.
19th land perhaps? That makes the most sense (to me at least :wink:).

[FoolofaTook]

19th land perhaps? That makes the most sense (to me at least :wink:).

Yeah, 18 lands with 4 wastes is tough if you're trying to cast Abrupt Decay on turn 2. That's why BUG Control plays 20 lands even with nothing costing more than 3 in the list and 8 cantrips.

[Sturtzilla]

I am pretty sure that it was 18 land and that it was the values listed above. I keep thinking that it might have been a 4th Treasure Cruise even though I know I don't like that last copy.

[Asthereal]

I am pretty sure that it was 18 land and that it was the values listed above. I keep thinking that it might have been a 4th Treasure Cruise even though I know I don't like that last copy.
If you're sure about the 18 lands and don't like the 4th Cruise, it was probably a creature or a removal spell.
Or maybe you cheated and played 59 cards? :tongue::eek::eyebrow:

[Sturtzilla]

I know I cut the 1-of TNN this week and the deck for sure counted out to 60 cards. I am thinking it was either an extra counterspell or a test piece of removal. Figuring out the 60th card isn't super important. I think the take away here is that Dismember felt really good to have access to. Again if you are facing a lot of Burn and UR Delver it probably isn't the best. But in Tarmogoyf mirrors and decks that have big threats like Baneslayer it has a ton of value over our normal removal.

[exallium]

Heh only 6 people showed up last night so there were only 3 rounds. The Meta here is kind of not normal on a global scale.

The decks in the room last night were: Pox, Mono White Stax, Mono Black Reanimator Depths, Death and Taxes, Metalworker, and BUG Delver (Yours Truly)

I played against Pox, Mono White Stax, and the Reanimator deck.

Round 1 was Daniel on Reanimator Depths. I keep a bit of a shady hand, but I have double force of will and a wasteland. I never really manage to get much going, as more lands never see the light of day, and he eventually, after trying to T1 Ritual -> Entomb, T2 Ritual Entomb me, he gets both a Hexmage and a depths out, and then plays stage, making my wasteland slightly less relevant. I Die to a 20/20. In game 2, I draw a bit better, and have a for sure plan to stop the reanimation shenanigans with a turn 1 deathrite shaman, but I'm soon punished as I never find a wasteland and a 20/20 kills me again. Oh well. I made a huge mistake in not bringing in VClique from the board. Game 2 I got him down to 5, and managed to stave off his 20/20 for a good few turns, but of course, all the land from game 1 decided to show up and say "sorry" and eventually marit lage used me like a golf tee.

Sideboard was something like this:

-4 Daze
+1 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Disfigure

Round 2 was versus Aaron, who was playing Mono White stax, because "There is only so much fun to be had in a room of Magic, and I want to take as much of it as possible". I quickly 2-0 him, as his deck doesn't seem to respond very well to an angry Tarmogoyf. Game 2 was actually vendilion clique that dealt the last point, even after he Helmed me and got to steal a clique from me. Abrupt Decay did a lot of work =P

+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Thoughtsieze
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Null Rod

-4 Daze
-1 Spell Pierce

Round 3 was vs. Sheldon who was playing Pox. Game 1 was completely won off Treasure Cruise, of which I delved 3 of them, paying a total of 3 mana. This card is the nut. I was able to get a stable land base, and start deploying multiple threats, while keeping his locked down. Game 2 went in a similar vein, and we both had a good laugh when he forgot that Tarmogoyf says all graveyards, and therefore his leyline was more of an annoyance than anything else.

+2 Spell Pierce
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Null Rod

-2 Thoughtsieze
-4 Daze

2-1 for the night

Overall I came in 4th, which, due to how this store's prizing works, got me $10 in store credit. Damn you, Marit Lage.... *shakes fist angerly*

[wcm8]

Just wanted to bring up this cute tech:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15554&iddeck=115705

Essentially, it's taking a BUG Delver list and making these primary changes:
-4 Delver of Secrets
-4 Daze
+4 Putrid Leech
+4 Stubborn Denial

There are advantages and disadvantages to this approach. Leech is not Blue to fuel FoW, and also can't be deployed as quickly as Delver. However, it is *always* a 2/2, and pumping it to 4/4 is almost always an option. While it lacks evasion, I suppose it makes up for it by being consistently large -- in fact, large enough to survive Bolt.format, maindeck Pyroblasts, and battles with 3/X critters. Also, without Delver the deck doesn't need to run nearly as many Instant/Sorceries, and you can see the end result in choosing to run 3 planeswalkers, 2 TNN and a Sylvan Library. In a vacuum, this deck is probably capable of racing to 20 damage much faster than typical stock Delver lists.

Stubborn Denial is interesting. Daze is at its best when it's backing up a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman or if you are tapping out for [whatever], but as long as you have 1 open mana SD is practically the same (minus not hitting creatures), and is frequently a hard-counter thanks to the deck running 8 'ferocious' creatures. There are some corner cases where bouncing back lands to your hands is actually an advantage of Daze (e.g. against something like Sinkhole, or shuffling away extra lands in the midgame with Bstorm + fetch), but in general I could see having a 'Counterspell' being a huge trump in certain matchups. It's also nice if you lack any early-turn plays but still want to counter your opponent's [non-creature spell] -- unlike Daze, you're not set back a land drop.

Overall I think this is a better option for a format like Modern where Daze isn't even available. However I thought it was worth mentioning since it shows there is still room for innovation in Legacy.

[FoolofaTook]

Stubborn Denial doesn't stop TNN or SFM or Eidolon of the Great Revel. I'd never pull Daze for it. It might be a good 2-of in a 10 to 12 counter list with a slower game plan and no need to tap out early.

[Grand Superior]

So with Cruise's banning, is it time to go back to the Bayou/Hymn to Tourach/Liliana of the Veil lists?

[sauce]

So with Cruise's banning, is it time to go back to the Bayou/Hymn to Tourach/Liliana of the Veil lists?

Yep... naturally that's the first line of testing.

[Star|Scream]

Tombstalker or DTT? Or both? Maybe a 2/1 split

[Fallacy]

With Tombstalker or DTT you're looking at UU or BB, and if you plan on playing Hymns and Lily I'm not sure I like DTT as much as Tombstalker sine we'll be running likely 2 Bayous and less Trops.

My upcoming testing will be with 12 creatures (pre-TC I was running 14 like many lists) and trying to get some more toys in the deck in place of my previous 2 Tombstalkers. I did enjoy running 2 Disfigure and 1 Spell Pierce MB when Cruise was legal, so might start there. I won't be disappointed if I end up back to my "old" list :)

[wcm8]

Dig Through Time seems better in other style of decks, e.g. UW(r) Miracles, OmniTell. I think RUG also might end up adopting 1-2 copies since they typically want to hold up Blue mana on their opponent's turns.

Team America is an aggressive deck that typically wants to tap out on its own turns, particularly if you are playing a version that runs Hymn to Tourach and Liliana. Sylvan Library is probably the better card for that slot in BUG. Maybe 1 copy of DTT could work its way in.

I am curious as to whether Tasigur, the Golden Fang might be worth considering in Tombstalker slot(s). While lacking evasion and 1 point of power, he's a lot easier to cast and has an ability that could occasionally help out in niche scenarios.

[btm10]

Dig Through Time seems better in other style of decks, e.g. UW(r) Miracles, OmniTell. I think RUG also might end up adopting 1-2 copies since they typically want to hold up Blue mana on their opponent's turns.

Team America is an aggressive deck that typically wants to tap out on its own turns, particularly if you are playing a version that runs Hymn to Tourach and Liliana. Sylvan Library is probably the better card for that slot in BUG. Maybe 1 copy of DTT could work its way in.

I am curious as to whether Tasigur, the Golden Fang might be worth considering in Tombstalker slot(s). While lacking evasion and 1 point of power, he's a lot easier to cast and has an ability that could occasionally help out in niche scenarios.

I'm going to test 2 Dig alongside 1 Sylvan and see how it goes. Tasigur, the Golden Fang seems interesting, but I'm not sure I want to be screwing around with mini-Fact or Fiction instead of killing my opponent. As a sideboard card against Miracles he seems great, though.

In any case, looks like we're the best deck again!

[Fallacy]

Curious, you going with the Hymn suite and Liliana, in addition to 1/2 DTT?

I wonder if we're going to see Wasteland become more prevalent, and if so, double cc spells make me slightly reserved unless it's BB. Lemme know how your play-testing goes.

Finally, Tarmogoyf can grow +1 with a Lily in the bin :) He seemed to be stuck on a 4/5 for the past few months...

[btm10]

Definitely Hymn and Liliana. I've never been a fan of the Stifle builds, even against Cruise.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Wow, with Treasure Cruise banning, that should make BUG a threat once a again, huge move in our favor.

[Fallacy]

Definitely Hymn and Liliana. I've never been a fan of the Stifle builds, even against Cruise.

Versus Thoughtseize I where I was going, to help reduce the number of double color spells (i.e. BB, UU). I think TS would be faster to fuel the bin for DTT, but I just don't see the future as a race to DTT as we're used to seeing the race to Cruise.

[btm10]

Versus Thoughtseize I where I was going, to help reduce the number of double color spells (i.e. BB, UU). I think TS would be faster to fuel the bin for DTT, but I just don't see the future as a race to DTT as we're used to seeing the race to Cruise.

Yeah, I agree with this. Dig plays really well with our pre-Cruise game plan of forcing a topdeck war with us ahead or at parity, and then winning said topdeck war with bombs like Sylvan Library, Liliana, and Tarmogoyf, re-invigorating the Delver + protection plan with our opponent out of resources, or just keeping everyone hellbent and grinding them out with DRS. Dig slots perfectly into those plans.

As for Thoughtseize, I'm guessing we just default back to the original Hymn plan being stronger, but I could be wrong. Testing will tell.

[hobart]

Cruise hit mana denial even harder than discard in BUG Delver I think. With most decks just packed with cheap cantrips and Treasure Cruises it was incorrect to expect wastelands and stifles to take someone off of mana for the majority of the game. I think both of those cards went way down in value. Now with Cruise gone again, I'll be going BACK to my stifle BUG lists that I was really loving.

[edahl]

I'm considering getting my 3rd Underground Sea to play BUG Delver. How important is the fourth US to the Hymn/Liliana build of the deck?

[Fallacy]

I'm considering getting my 3rd Underground Sea to play BUG Delver. How important is the fourth US to the Hymn/Liliana build of the deck?

In this build I always played 4 UGsea, 2 Bayou, and 1 Trop, next to 4 Wasteland and 9 fetches and had great success (20 land 7 duals). I think most would agree that is classic Team America. More fetches and less duals (19 land with 6 duals) was more important during the Cruise-era in my opinion, but I don't think you'd notice so long as you keep 3(or 4) UG sea, 2 Bayou, and 1 Trop with the Lily/Hymn build.

[btm10]

In this build I always played 4 UGsea, 2 Bayou, and 1 Trop, next to 4 Wasteland and 9 fetches and had great success (20 land 7 duals). I think most would agree that is classic Team America. More fetches and less duals (19 land with 6 duals) was more important during the Cruise-era in my opinion, but I don't think you'd notice so long as you keep 3(or 4) UG sea, 2 Bayou, and 1 Trop with the Lily/Hymn build.

I prefer a 19 Land, 8 Fetch 3/2/2 Sea/Trop/Bayou split + 4 Wasetland for versions requiring a larger black commitment, but that's totally a playstyle/personal preference thing.

EDIT:

This is the build I'm going to start testing from:

Creatures (12)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets

Draw/Manipulation (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Dig Through Time
1 Sylvan Library

Disruption (18)

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Spell Pierce

Land (19)

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Underground Sea

[edahl]

Thanks for the help :) I'll stick to 3 US for now then (or 2 and a Watery Grave).

[Fallacy]

For starters, I think I'm going to play something like this, which was a combination of my pre-TC deck and TC deck:

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf

4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach (considering 3-2 split between Hymns and Thoughtsieze)

4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure (1 could be a flex card TBD)
1 Spell Pierce (possible flex card TBD, can always pitch to FoW)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW

2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Bayou
1 Trop
4 UG Sea
8 Fetches
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 GD Cage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 K Grip
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 V Clique

A few things I'm looking to test:
-Split Hymn and Thoughtseize 3-2, or just run 4 Hymn?
-1 Tombstalker? 2 Tombstalkers?
-Does 1 DTT fit in here? Perhaps not if trying to get 1-2 Tombstalkers in the mix.
-Need to make room for 1 Sylvan Library in the SB
-Maelstrom Pulse in SB, maybe against Miracles and other annoying cards like Jace
-Creeping Tarpit becomes more viable as a 1-of

A few observations thus far:
-19 land seemed correct previously and will try again
-Decent anti-combo / Storm with access to countermagic and V Clique
-Decent removal package against Maverick and Elves with 4 Abrupt Decay, 2 Golgari Charm, 4 Disfigures, 3 Liliana's
-Miracles MU looks OK, could use another K Grip, a Creeping Tar Pit, or Maelstrom Pulse though

Open for feedback.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

I would stay away from DTT, gonna be hard to cast, but might be a good 1 of to pitch to FOW. If you don't use Tombstalker, you might want to try 2-3 Bobs.

[btm10]

A few things I'm looking to test:
-Split Hymn and Thoughtseize 3-2, or just run 4 Hymn?


This is reasonable to test as there are some decks against which specificity with your discard is important. I think that spending more than 4 slots on Hymn/Thoughtseize is probably wrong because of how bad it is if the game goes long, so a 3-1 split might be better. At least that's my intuition. You might want to try Dismember or Dimir Charm in at least one of the Disfigure slots, too. My own gut feeling is that you don't want to spend more than 1 MD slot on something that's dead against combo and Miracles and mostly dead against things like Jund, UWx Blade and Shardless. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Baneslayers that have sprung up in Blade and Miracles SBs stay, so Dismember might be the best call. It's a flex slot though, and there are a lot of options to test there.



-1 Tombstalker? 2 Tombstalkers?
-Does 1 DTT fit in here? Perhaps not if trying to get 1-2 Tombstalkers in the mix.

I've never been impressed with Tombstalker in this deck. He's huge and evasive, but he also isn't castable until turn 4 at the earliest, and he's awful in the face of Jace, which is one of the only cards that matters against Miracles and is straight-up gamebreaking against Shardless. I'd like at least 1 Dig, possibly 2, but I'll see how testing goes. TNN is usually better all-around as a 13th threat than Tombstalker, especially in the face of Rest in Peace or Scavenging Ooze.



-Need to make room for 1 Sylvan Library in the SB
-Maelstrom Pulse in SB, maybe against Miracles and other annoying cards like Jace


I'd probably cut the SB Liliana for the Library, and the Flusterstorms and maybe one Vendilion Clique for a Pithing Needle, the Maelstrom Pulse, and if you cut a Clique the third Spell Pierce, or...



-Creeping Tarpit becomes more viable as a 1-of
A few observations thus far:
-Miracles MU looks OK, could use another K Grip, a Creeping Tar Pit, or Maelstrom Pulse though


a piece of Miracles-specific hate if that 's what you're in the market for. Zur's Weirding is insane against Miracles by itself, and dramatically amplifies the value of your discard against them. The second SB Clique slot is also the place I'd be looking to insert a Tar Pit if that's something you're interested in. All that being said, Clique, 2 Pierce, Pulse, Library, and Grip are all great general-purpose SB cards that come in against a variety of matchups, but the third Liliana, second Clique, and Tarpit are really only good against Miracles and other extremely grindy matchups like Shardless, and I'm not a big fan of overboarding for already favorable matchups.

[FoolofaTook]

Spell Snare is probably going to make a comeback at this point. There are too many 2cc bombs in the best lists at this point. So Thoughtseize over Hymn may still be a good play. BUG only has 9 2cc's that can be countered in most lists anyway. Maybe it's ok to just take the 1-for-1 trades on the Hymns and live with them.

[btm10]

Spell Snare is probably going to make a comeback at this point. There are too many 2cc bombs in the best lists at this point. So Thoughtseize over Hymn may still be a good play. BUG only has 9 2cc's that can be countered in most lists anyway. Maybe it's ok to just take the 1-for-1 trades on the Hymns and live with them.

You can test it, but I don't see why people would be running more Snares than they were pre-Cruise. If anything, we'll see fewer 2 CMC must-counters than before because there's retrenchment from both Reanimator and UWr decks because they're both soft to BGx decks.

[H]

I've missed about a month and a half of playing due to illness, holidays, birth of a child, etc, but it looks like this week I can get back on the horse.

One reason I like a 3/2 split of Hymn and Seize is that a first turn Seize, second turn Hymn, with Daze can be real devestating versus most opponents.

I'll try the split and see how I like it.

[FoolofaTook]

You can test it, but I don't see why people would be running more Snares than they were pre-Cruise. If anything, we'll see fewer 2 CMC must-counters than before because there's retrenchment from both Reanimator and UWr decks because they're both soft to BGx decks.

I don't know that BUG should be running Spell Snare but I think lists facing BUG should be running a couple of copies. Having Abrupt Decay as a catch-all manages things that many lists just can't manage well. It doesn't resolve the problem of how best to defend against a wide range of 2cc threats but Spell Pierce catches enough of them that you can live with the overflow.

[wcm8]

Spell Snare is not a good enough reason to justify cutting Hymn. If they happen to counter Hymn, it's a 1-for-1 exchange -- same as if you were to Thoughtseize their Spell Snare, except you're also losing 2 life.

While I do expect cards like Jace and Ancestral Visions to make a comeback in the absence of Treasure Cruise, I think the 2-for-1 power of Hymn is better in this deck than targeted discard. Those sort of cards tend to work much better in UB(x) combo decks, or midrange decks with Snapcaster. For TA, only in a combo-heavy metagame would I want to run a 3/2 split in the main 60.

I am definitely thinking that Dark Confidant could reappear in creature slots 13-14, as I expect UW(r) Miracles to become (more) popular.

[btm10]

I've missed about a month and a half of playing due to illness, holidays, birth of a child, etc, but it looks like this week I can get back on the horse.

One reason I like a 3/2 split of Hymn and Seize is that a first turn Seize, second turn Hymn, with Daze can be real devestating versus most opponents.

I'll try the split and see how I like it.

Congrats on the kid, and definitely post your results. I'm a little skeptical about five MD discard spells given that they just get pitched to Liliana in the late game most of the time, but we'll see.


I don't know that BUG should be running Spell Snare but I think lists facing BUG should be running a couple of copies. Having Abrupt Decay as a catch-all manages things that many lists just can't manage well. It doesn't resolve the problem of how best to defend against a wide range of 2cc threats but Spell Pierce catches enough of them that you can live with the overflow.

I didn't think that you were suggesting Snare for TA, but my point still stands - with the possible exception of a 1-of from RUG, I don't expect people to run many Snares. The card is just too narrow. In any case, wcm8 is right.

[H]

Congtats on the kid, and definitely post your results. I'm a little skeptical about five MD discard spells given that they just get pitched to Liliana in the late game most of the time, but we'll see.



I didn't think that you were suggesting Snare for TA, but my point still stands - with the possible exceprion of a 1-of from RUG, I don't expect people to run many Snares. The card is just too narrow. In any case, wcm8 is right.

Thanks, been a bit of an adventure. Well, I think I have tried 5 before, I really want to hit them with something on turns 1-2, at least to see what they were, or are, working with.

Right now, I threw together a list, it is pretty much stock, but I am trying the 3/2 Hymn/TS split and a 1-of DtT and Tombstalker. It's basically what I played before the delve spells came out, just with a DtT added in.

If Dig doesn't seem that good, I'd be happy to play Confidant, but I don't think I want both.

[o_boogie]

Hey Sourcers. Pretty excited that TC got the banhammer; now I can continue to Hymn and Waste my opponents with gusto. Here is the list I expect to run for the SCG PIQ this Sunday in DC. I expect the field to include a lot of Miracles, Elves, Death and Taxes, RUG, Sneak and Show, and Shardless BUG. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dimir Charm
3 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
9 Fetches
4 Wasteland

Board:
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Envelop
1 Spell Pierce
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

[Fallacy]

Looks pretty good. To keep our tapout play style I would add a 4th Daze to the main. I'm not keen on the Toxic Deluge in the SB since you already have 3 Disfigures and 2 Golgari Charm. Envelop, eh. The second Jace is fun, but I'm not sure how necessary. A Kgrip or Flusterstorm would be two more diverse cards in the SB, that's my personal pref.

[H]

So, I threw together a sideboard last night, not knowing what my local meta has been looking like. I know the usual suspects will be there, which means at least one Lands deck. How do you feel about boarding versus that in general? I think I will be packing a Surgical Extraction, since it can be useful versus Reanimator as well. Possibly one more card? Did anyone ever like Winter Orb in testing? I saw it in a few lists and it seems interesting, since it can come in versus Miracles as well.

[btm10]

So, I threw together a sideboard last night, not knowing what my local meta has been looking like. I know the usual suspects will be there, which means at least one Lands deck. How do you feel about boarding versus that in general? I think I will be packing a Surgical Extraction, since it can be useful versus Reanimator as well. Possibly one more card? Did anyone ever like Winter Orb in testing? I saw it in a few lists and it seems interesting, since it can come in versus Miracles as well.

I've always liked Extirpate/Surgical against Lands; they're like 5th Deathrites that can't be killed with Punishing Fire. I tend to over-board for graveyard matchups, so I've been on 2 Cage and 1 Surgical, but that might be overkill. Winter Orb is fantastic against Miracles, but honestly I haven't tested it against Lands. It could be really good.

[tescrin]

Has anyone considered Dead Weight over disfigure?

The sorcery speed is lame; but the fact it basically "kills" Serra Avenger, is an Enchant for Goyf, can win Goyf stalls at no risk, and similar; makes it seem pretty Ok. In a discard build (tap out) I could see it being roughly as effective as Difigure but being dead less often.

Even attaching it to Griselbrand gives you a good chance of your Goyf being able to just attack through (assuming an artifact, walker, enchant, or tribal has made it to the grave.)

I get that it doesn't flip delver, but if it's a 2-of or something anyway I don't consider that a strong argument. Sorcery vs. instant doesn't seem important enough in this deck either. It just seems like it'd be a dead card a lot less often and Goyf pumps are always welcome in my book.

[razvan]

I am fairly sure the sorcery speed makes it much much worse. There's very few 3+ toughness creatures that matter beyond the current combat step that would go into that combat step to begin with. Serra Avenger literally being the best such example (which is a fair point), the other one being (temporarily) the Batterskull Germ token.

[H]

I've always liked Extirpate/Surgical against Lands; they're like 5th Deathrites that can't be killed with Punishing Fire. I tend to over-board for graveyard matchups, so I've been on 2 Cage and 1 Surgical, but that might be overkill. Winter Orb is fantastic against Miracles, but honestly I haven't tested it against Lands. It could be really good.

I will probably try one Orb and see. Just makes me sad that I only have white-boarder ones, :frown:

[tescrin]

I am fairly sure the sorcery speed makes it much much worse. There's very few 3+ toughness creatures that matter beyond the current combat step that would go into that combat step to begin with. Serra Avenger literally being the best such example (which is a fair point), the other one being (temporarily) the Batterskull Germ token.

And Goyf; which is going to be everywhere again. It's like the old exalted trick with Goyf (use QPM/Noble to break stalls) while being a card that pumps Goyf in non-green matches. It won't kill him, but it'll turn him into a 2/3 which means you can happily race with your 4/5. If it dies/chumps then you have a nice 5/6 for your troubles

Again, I'm not saying it's genius; but it seems better than Disfigure except the bad-delver-flip thing. How often does that instant speed matter aside from killing a guy before the Equip or going first and saving it for the dude they drop? Normally instant speed for me is only to deal with Vial-dudes, Ambush-viper strategies, and wasting equip mana.

[Manipulato]

And Goyf; which is going to be everywhere again. It's like the old exalted trick with Goyf (use QPM/Noble to break stalls) while being a card that pumps Goyf in non-green matches. It won't kill him, but it'll turn him into a 2/3 which means you can happily race with your 4/5. If it dies/chumps then you have a nice 5/6 for your troubles

Again, I'm not saying it's genius; but it seems better than Disfigure except the bad-delver-flip thing. How often does that instant speed matter aside from killing a guy before the Equip or going first and saving it for the dude they drop? Normally instant speed for me is only to deal with Vial-dudes, Ambush-viper strategies, and wasting equip mana.

Hi,
the loss of instant speed is more of a problem than you might think. It`s a loss of tempo if the board is clear and your op is putting a creature into play which you cant remove at the eot, then you block your mana a bit for a Hymn, Goyf, Stalker or Lili next turn.

If you plan to handle Serra Avenger, I prefer Dismember or Ulcerate. Sure the damage is a disadvantage but you get it of the board for sure and both are instant speed. Especially Dismember can get everything from the table like Goyf, Stalker, BS etc. and in the mid-/lategame you can cast it for 2-3 without paying life.

By the way, the D&T player has 4 Flickerwhisp in the deck and can just flicker his Avenger and the Enchantment is gone, without having carddisadvantage or anything.

The deck is by the way very low on Delver flip cards (24 with the stock Hymn/Lili list), so adding 2 instant removal after boarding is nice too.

Greetings

[Sturtzilla]

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dimir Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


This is the last list I had run pre-Treasure Cruise. I think that I am going to go back to it as a new starting point of sorts. Current thoughts on alterations would be:

Maindeck:
-1 Hymn to Tourach
-1 Fetchland
+2 Spell Pierce
or
+1 Dismember
+1 Spell Pierce

As I explained in a recent post, I was very impressed with Dismember. It handles opposing Tarmogoyfs and also gives us an instant speed way to deal with Baneslayer Angel. On top of that it basically kills everything in the format. I am also giving some consideration to whether or not this list would want 1-2 copies of Dig Through Time. It seems as we are moving back to a more grindy meta game, that DTT would be great at helping us find exactly what we need at any given point in time. It doesn't play perfectly with Liliana but it certainly isn't a nonbo.

Sideboard:
-1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Surgical Extraction
or
+1 Dismember
or
+1 Krosan Grip

It is hard to say right now for sure what the sideboard should be... I am sure that I do not want Deluge. I have not be particularly impressed with it in the past. So It could really be any viable card and I would be happy. I assume Miracles and BUG are going to be back in a big way. The 75 should more or less reflect this. There are likely going to be UWR Stoneblade/Control decks running DTT as well. I think this list a decent shot at fighting those as well. Anyway those are my thoughts on where this deck should be headed. Please feel free to let me know what you think and thanks for reading!

[mordraid]

Wouldn't Ghastly demise be a good spot removal ? now that treasure cruise is gone, the grave is there to stay. Demise don't interfere with tarmogoyf and can kill just about anything except dark confidant and deathrite shaman.

[Sturtzilla]

Wouldn't Ghastly demise be a good spot removal ? now that treasure cruise is gone, the grave is there to stay. Demise don't interfere with tarmogoyf and can kill just about anything except dark confidant and deathrite shaman.

Ghastly Demise doesn't kill Dark Confidant (which will likely see a rise is popularity), Deathrite Shaman, Tombstalker, and the ever-popular Batterskull Germ token. GD is certainly worth consideration, but the non-black clause limits you from targeting some real heavy hitters in Legacy. Additionally I imagine a there will be a number of games where your graveyard isn't quite big enough to allow you to target the creature you need to kill, due to your own need to canablize it (your own GY) with your own DRS. Also it is pretty bad if an opponent has preemptive graveyard hate like Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, and/or Nihil Spellbomb.

[Fallacy]

I agree with the earlier comment regarding more Miracles and BUG (Team or BUG Control) will show up, and I think Deathblade type decks will, too. I agree it will be more grindy. That said, I have been trying to figure out how many Lily's or if I want 1 MB Jace. After scouring through decks of past, 2-3 Lily's was the norm, and some included 1 Jace MB.

Furthermore, several decks were running 2 Bob's plus 3 Lily MB. That intrigues me, but at the same time worries me bc I play to play 4 FoW MB, on top of the 2-3 Lily's. Has anyone had good success with Bob's and Lily's, and care to elaborate on that?

Anyone planning on playing Jace, MB or SB?

[H]

Furthermore, several decks were running 2 Bob's plus 3 Lily MB. That intrigues me, but at the same time worries me bc I play to play 4 FoW MB, on top of the 2-3 Lily's. Has anyone had good success with Bob's and Lily's, and care to elaborate on that?

3 Lili's seems like a lot to me, but I don't see too much tension between Bob and Liliana. The life loss that comes from flipping Force is unfortunate, but having played Bob in Vintage decks, sometimes including 4 Force and 4 Gush and a Blightsteel Colossus, the amount that it will have you lose the game is much lower than the times the extra cards win the game. With 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder, you should definitely be able to mitigate the damage you'll take, regardless of if you chose to run 0-4 Lili.

That being said, I don't have much experience running Bob in TA, but the point should still be somewhat valid. I think you really want that combination if you are seeing a lot of Miracles though, probably.

[Fallacy]

Aside from Miracles, equipment-based decks are still tough to deal with, so I was thinking that a 3rd Liliana would boost odds against those. I want game against TNN and Batterskull, MB preferably, because so many times in my experience the match is decided by the 3rd game against those.

Furthermore, I really want the ability T2 a Liliana more consistently.

[btm10]

I agree with the earlier comment regarding more Miracles and BUG (Team or BUG Control) will show up, and I think Deathblade type decks will, too. I agree it will be more grindy. That said, I have been trying to figure out how many Lily's or if I want 1 MB Jace. After scouring through decks of past, 2-3 Lily's was the norm, and some included 1 Jace MB.

Furthermore, several decks were running 2 Bob's plus 3 Lily MB. That intrigues me, but at the same time worries me bc I play to play 4 FoW MB, on top of the 2-3 Lily's. Has anyone had good success with Bob's and Lily's, and care to elaborate on that?

Anyone planning on playing Jace, MB or SB?

I think it was ESG who described the "Jace Fallacy" - he doesn't belong in tempo builds of TA, especially maindeck. He's only good if you're grinding, and your preboard card quality - while the highest of any Delver deck - is still lowered by the presence of Daze preboard and discard against a hellbent opponent or when you have an active Liliana. I really like MD Sylvan, especially if you want to run Bob. I agree with H that 3 Liliana seems like a lot.


Aside from Miracles, equipment-based decks are still tough to deal with, so I was thinking that a 3rd Liliana would boost odds against those. I want game against TNN and Batterskull, MB preferably, because so many times in my experience the match is decided by the 3rd game against those.

Furthermore, I really want the ability T2 a Liliana more consistently.

Is your local meta really heavy on stuff like D&T, Maverick, and Blade? Turn 2 Liliana is fine, but I'd almost always rather have Goyf + Spell Pierce (or Goyf through Daze), Hymn into Delver, cantrip into Decay, etc. unless I had protection for Liliana. This is especially true against another Delver deck, a Blade deck, or Miracles. She's something you really want to make sure connects, and I'm not a fan of just running her out and seeing what happens.



That being said, I don't have much experience running Bob in TA, but the point should still be somewhat valid. I think you really want that combination if you are seeing a lot of Miracles though, probably.

I think the incidental damage tends to matter a little less in Vintage than it does in Legacy because legacy has more decks like Fish that nickel-and-dime your life total, and flipping Hymn (for instance) is like giving them a free swing with Thalia or their own Bob. I don't think this invalidates Bob (I'm going to test him too), but it is something to think about, and he is indeed great against Miracles, even though I'm not 100% sure he's better than Sylvan Library.

[Que]

Is stifle not a consideration? I was thinking of incorporating it into my BUG list for the mana denial plan. I mean we already run Wasteland and Daze so it just seems like the natural response.

[Fallacy]

My meta is not heavy on certain decks, rather it's pretty diverse, especially since I travel to different locations to play. I had previously ran 2 MB Liliana's with 1 SB, and more often than not I was siding in the 3rd, so I thought why not include it in the MB.

I agree that T2 Goyf/Hymn backed by Daze or Pierce is crazy good, but if I don't get that option I would take a T2 Lily backed by Daze too. Just trying to make sure that T1-3 are as consistent as possible for an ugly start for opponent.

At the same time I'd like to try to boost my blue count for FoW, and boost spell count for Delver, so now I'm talking myself back into 1-2 MB Pierce and abandoning the Bob plan. I had to ask about Bob, since I didn't give him much play in Legacy but played a lot of him in Modern.

Hey, it's nice to see this forum lively again!

[Richard Cheese]

Is stifle not a consideration? I was thinking of incorporating it into my BUG list for the mana denial plan. I mean we already run Wasteland and Daze so it just seems like the natural response.

I believe before Cruise it was generally dropped in favor of discard, and because the curve in BUG is generally higher than RUG. It's a deck where you almost always want to tap out the first several turns.

[btm10]

Is stifle not a consideration? I was thinking of incorporating it into my BUG list for the mana denial plan. I mean we already run Wasteland and Daze so it just seems like the natural response.

It is. John Wiley is the person who's had the most success with Stifle builds. His most recent list is here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78247); I'd probably start building from his list, -3 Cruise and turning the 3 MD 3-ofs into 4-ofs.

[H]

I think the incidental damage tends to matter a little less in Vintage than it does in Legacy because legacy has more decks like Fish that nickel-and-dime your life total, and flipping Hymn (for instance) is like giving them a free swing with Thalia or their own Bob. I don't think this invalidates Bob (I'm going to test him too), but it is something to think about, and he is indeed great against Miracles, even though I'm not 100% sure he's better than Sylvan Library.

I absolutely agree that your life total is definitely more under more pressure in Legacy. However, versus Miracles, your life total is probably not very important and that is really why you would be playing Confidant. Library is probably better in the sense that it gets to stick around, but the fact that Confidant attacks and nets you cards (generally for less that 4 life each), it means you are putting them in a bad spot on the top-deck war.

That being said, I am not sure we should even be running Confidant in anything but heavily saturated Miracle metas.

[phazonmutant]

I absolutely agree that your life total is definitely more under more pressure in Legacy. However, versus Miracles, your life total is probably not very important and that is really why you would be playing Confidant. Library is probably better in the sense that it gets to stick around, but the fact that Confidant attacks and nets you cards (generally for less that 4 life each), it means you are putting them in a bad spot on the top-deck war.

That being said, I am not sure we should even be running Confidant in anything but heavily saturated Miracle metas.

Agreed. I've tried Bob before and never been very happy with it. It's just not a relevant beater most of the time. It gets brickwalled too easily in the creature matchups where the life loss actually is relevant, and killed too easily against control. This isn't Jund where we have more threats than they can handle. It's obviously great against Miracles if it sticks, but overall Sylvan Library is much better.

About Jace - I've been outspokenly against it in this deck for a long time. It just doesn't belong in a deck with Daze and 4 Wastelands. Other factors that make it bad include not being able to defend it well - only 4-5 expensive removal spells, no Baleful Strix or True Name.

I'm torn if Dig actually has a place in this deck. It puts a pretty big strain on the manabase to have to support double black for Hymn and Lili as well as double blue for Dig. I strongly believe that Hymn is worth making the manabase black-heavy.

[eostby]

Is it possible that we consider Murderous Cut now? It does hurt our DRS/Goyf plan, as did Treasure Cruise, but it's often just a single black for a "kill any creature" spell.

[wcm8]

Is it possible that we consider Murderous Cut now? It does hurt our DRS/Goyf plan, as did Treasure Cruise, but it's often just a single black for a "kill any creature" spell.

Maybe. While Murderous Cut hits just about creature, I don't like that it can't be cast in the early game.

The stock Team America list looks like this:

20 Lands (9 fetch, 4 sea, 2 bayou, 1 trop, 4 waste)
4 bstorm
4 ponder
4 fow
4 daze
4 hymn
4 delver
4 DRS
4 goyf
4 decay
2 lili
2 [flex]

I see a fair amount of UWr Miracles and RUG locally, so I am running a Sylvan Library and a Tombstalker.

I am going to try out Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Depending on how he performs I might even end up running 2 copies. Having 5-6 Tarmogoyf seems pretty good, and even better is the fact that he dodges Abrupt Decay. I'd like to also find out if his ability is as good as it seems on paper in the late game.

[btm10]

Agreed. I've tried Bob before and never been very happy with it. It's just not a relevant beater most of the time. It gets brickwalled too easily in the creature matchups where the life loss actually is relevant, and killed too easily against control. This isn't Jund where we have more threats than they can handle. It's obviously great against Miracles if it sticks, but overall Sylvan Library is much better.

About Jace - I've been outspokenly against it in this deck for a long time. It just doesn't belong in a deck with Daze and 4 Wastelands. Other factors that make it bad include not being able to defend it well - only 4-5 expensive removal spells, no Baleful Strix or True Name.

I'm torn if Dig actually has a place in this deck. It puts a pretty big strain on the manabase to have to support double black for Hymn and Lili as well as double blue for Dig. I strongly believe that Hymn is worth making the manabase black-heavy.

I'm going to second this. I definitely prefer Sylvan to Bob, but I think it might be worth stretching for at least a singleton Dig. We still need staying power against Miracles, Shardless, and UWx Blade and are strong enough against RUG that we shouldn't get punished too badly for getting a little greedy. I really like the 2/2 Bayou/Trop split for this, though there's a reasonable argument for just running the 4th Sea.


=
I am going to try out Tasigur, the Golden Fang. Depending on how he performs I might even end up running 2 copies. Having 5-6 Tarmogoyf seems pretty good, and even better is the fact that he dodges Abrupt Decay. I'd like to also find out if his ability is as good as it seems on paper in the late game.

I think Tasigur might be better in a more midrange/control oriented deck. I'm actually planning on doing a lot of testing with non-Shardless BUG midrange/control in the coming weeks because I think it might just be better than Delver.

[Esper3k]

It's been awhile since I've posted in here, but I just wanted to say how happy it makes me that our beloved Hymns and Lilianas are a thing again!

[phazonmutant]

I'm going to second this. I definitely prefer Sylvan to Bob, but I think it might be worth stretching for at least a singleton Dig. We still need staying power against Miracles, Shardless, and UWx Blade and are strong enough against RUG that we shouldn't get punished too badly for getting a little greedy. I really like the 2/2 Bayou/Trop split for this, though there's a reasonable argument for just running the 4th Sea.

3 green sources were enough before, not sure of the motivation behind swapping a Sea for a Trop. Another option besides the 4th Sea is a Creeping Tar Pit main. It's a meta call, certainly, but I've played it before because I felt like 19 lands was just a little too light. It's a spell that happens to tap for mana, poorly.


I think Tasigur might be better in a more midrange/control oriented deck. I'm actually planning on doing a lot of testing with non-Shardless BUG midrange/control in the coming weeks because I think it might just be better than Delver.

I'm really sceptical about Tasigur. It has the same Jace bounce problems Tombstalker has but with none of the evasion and a huge, huge weakness to Karakas. Yup, that dude is legendary.

[Manipulato]

Hey Guys,

before I go back to my traditional pre-Khans list with 2 Tombstalker I want to test 2 DTT in that slot. I really like that it ups the Delver & FoW count which is something the deck really needs. Also finding the right outs in different situations is really nice. DTT is no dud but it finds you 1-2 dudes or dude + removal...

I will tell you later about my results.

Greetings

[Esper3k]

If anyone is interested in going back to Tombstalkers, I would recommend that they give Necropolis Fiend a try. Sure, it's 1 Delve more and a 4/5 instead of a 5/5, but if you ever get to untap with 1-2 cards in your graveyard, it shuts down most offenses that decks in Legacy can offer.

I do love me some Tombstalker, but Necropolis Fiend has just been better for me whenever I played it.

[H]

If anyone is interested in going back to Tombstalkers, I would recommend that they give Necropolis Fiend a try. Sure, it's 1 Delve more and a 4/5 instead of a 5/5, but if you ever get to untap with 1-2 cards in your graveyard, it shuts down most offenses that decks in Legacy can offer.

I do love me some Tombstalker, but Necropolis Fiend has just been better for me whenever I played it.

I was intrigued by Fiend when I saw him, but recalling how I use Tombstalker, I think the 1 power and so the difference between a 4 turn and a 5 turn clock is relevant. The question of if it's more relevant than the ability to kill creatures, I'm not sure, but aren't we on offense more then defense?

[Fallacy]

What are people's take on Sylvan Library in the 75 - MB vs SB? It's always been in my 75, and always in my SB, but almost always finds its way into postboard games. I suspect it's personal preference, but wanted to see if there are any strong opinions on this. Thx.

[wcm8]

Sylvan Library is worth running in the main 60. I hardly ever side it out, and in fact wonder if I should be running more copies. If you somehow end up with extras you can just pitch it to Liliana.

[wcm8]

I'm really sceptical about Tasigur. It has the same Jace bounce problems Tombstalker has but with none of the evasion and a huge, huge weakness to Karakas. Yup, that dude is legendary.

I think the key is to compare the cards in matchups where they're *relevant*, e.g. Jund and other Delver decks. I think that Tasigur being easier to cast is a huge bonus in his favor, and the ability could make a big difference since these games can often end in top-deck wars. Against White/Jace decks you'd be siding both out so it's kind of a moot point.

Against RUG for example, being able to cast Tasigur for only one mana could be a huge deal since you have to deal with Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland.

In any case, I'm going to reserve judgement until I get some real world testing done.

[btm10]

3 green sources were enough before, not sure of the motivation behind swapping a Sea for a Trop. Another option besides the 4th Sea is a Creeping Tar Pit main. It's a meta call, certainly, but I've played it before because I felt like 19 lands was just a little too light. It's a spell that happens to tap for mana, poorly.


I've always felt a little light on green, especially postboard, with only 3 sources. Against Blade I typically board in Krosan Grip, Maelstrom Pulse, 2 Golgari Charm and occasionally a second Sylvan Library, and generally drop some combination of Forces and Dazes to make room. And it's not just Blade; Jund sees Pulse, Charm, and Library come in, etc. Unlike the blue and black cards, I hardly ever board Goyfs, Decays, or Library out. So while we're relatively light on green MD, the postboard configuration tends to be greener and the 4th green source has been important in supporting that.



I'm really sceptical about Tasigur. It has the same Jace bounce problems Tombstalker has but with none of the evasion and a huge, huge weakness to Karakas. Yup, that dude is legendary.

I'm skeptical of the Delve creatures in general, especially because they're fighting for space with Dig Through Time. I've got a lot more confidence that Dig is going to provide the staying power we need against Blade and Miracles and that True-Name Nemesis, Quirion Dryad, Vendilion Clique, or Scavenging Ooze (in that order of likelihood) are the 13th-14th threats we want.


Sylvan Library is worth running in the main 60. I hardly ever side it out, and in fact wonder if I should be running more copies. If you somehow end up with extras you can just pitch it to Liliana.

I was pretty sold on 1 main, 1 board pre-Cruise and am back there now. Sylvan Library is right up there with Goyf, DRS, and Abrupt Decay as a reason to blay BGx for me and it plays a huge role in the mirror as well as against midrange and control by enabling the mid-to-late game.

[tescrin]

I'm really sceptical about Tasigur. It has the same Jace bounce problems Tombstalker has but with none of the evasion and a huge, huge weakness to Karakas. Yup, that dude is legendary.

I'm going to try him in Jund/Junk; but for a tempo deck of sorts I think he's too weak. He can't land til T3, he is weak to karakas (and that's a tough MU already) and you already reliably find your Goyfs. He makes more sense in a midrange deck that beats up on Maverick/D&T so you can afford the extra weakness and where you reliably stall the game to where his large mana reqs come into play. BUG Delver trying to pay 4 mana reliably is far different than a deck with 22+ lands with mana-dudes and such.

IMO, you can run Stalker; he's still good (and going to be better) in the following meta; but Tasigur is purely a midrange-deck beast if he makes it to legacy (which I'm trying to do.)

[wcm8]

I took this list to a top 4 finish at a local 34-man 6-round tournament this Saturday:

20 Lands (4/2/1 sea/bayou/trop 4 waste 3/3/3 verdant/misty/delta)
4/4/4 Delver / DRS / Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
4/4/4/4/4/4 Ponder / Bstorm / Daze/ FoW / Hymn / Decay

SB:
4 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Null Rod
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Spell Pierce
1 V. Clique
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dread of Night

Matches:
0-2 Rw Painter Stone
2-0 UB Reanimator
2-1 UWr Miracles
2-1 RG Lands (Loam, P. Fire, Gamble, Dark Depths/Thespian Stage etc.)
2-1 Death and Taxes
ID into Top 8 - - -
2-0 Rw Painter Stone (same opponent as round 1, won thanks to nut draws)
0-2 UWr Delver

Top 8 Decks: Me (BUG); UWr Delver; ANT x2; BW Midrange; Dredge; Rw Painter Stone; Elves.

The deck performed well all day with the exception of my semi-finals match against UWr Delver where my luck finally ran out and I got flooded. Normally UWr Delver should be an easier matchup, especially with the sideboard I was running. I think the matchup is probably at least 60-40 in BUG's favor, but drawing 5~ lands in a row means defeat in any matchup. Anyways, BUG is once again well-positioned and will quickly make its way back to DTB/Tier 1 status.

-Sylvan Library was key to many victories. It is 100% worth running at least 1 copy in the maindeck, and definitely 2-3 copies belong somewhere in the 75. This card is how BUG Delver can consistently beat Miracles.
-Previously I ran a 1/1 split of Null Rod with Pithing Needle, but actually I find Null Rod to be more useful, hitting multiple problematic cards. I would definitely recommend running at least 1 to shut off Equipment and Aether Vial.
-Dread of Night is definitely worth running if you have Death and Taxes in your local metagame.
-I might cut 1 copy of Disfigure for something else, but I wanted to increase the likelihood of killing problem creatures on turn 1, e.g. opposing DRS.
-Tasigur gets my thumbs up. To be honest I didn't actually resolve him many times this tournament, but I did get to cast him a handful of times the previous night during the local Legacy 4-round FNM where he definitely proved useful. Casting him on Turn 3 for 1 mana is very easy... I think it would be fine to run 2 copies if you expect to see a fair amount of RUG/BUG Delver, BUG Control, and Jund decks. More copies of Tarmogoyf is good for these matchups, especially if it dodges Abrupt Decay. Anyone on the fence about him should definitely give him some testing time, I think you'll become quickly convinced of his power as an option for creature slots 13-14.

edit: updated Top 8 information.

[Firefight]

I took this list to a top 4 finish at a local 34-man 6-round tournament this Saturday:

20 Lands (4/2/1 sea/bayou/trop 4 waste 3/3/3 verdant/misty/delta)
4/4/4 Delver / DRS / Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
4/4/4/4/4/4 Ponder / Bstorm / Daze/ FoW / Hymn / Decay

SB:
4 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Null Rod
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Spell Pierce
1 V. Clique
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dread of Night

Matches:
0-2 Rw Painter Stone
2-0 UB Reanimator
2-1 UWr Miracles
2-1 RG Lands (Loam, P. Fire, Gamble, Dark Depths/Thespian Stage etc.)
2-1 Death and Taxes
ID into Top 8 - - -
2-0 Rw Painter Stone (same opponent as round 1, won thanks to nut draws)
0-2 UWr Delver

Top 8 Decks: Me (BUG); UWr Delver; ANT x2; BW Midrange; Dredge; Rw Painter Stone; Elves.

The deck performed well all day with the exception of my semi-finals match against UWr Delver where my luck finally ran out and I got flooded. Normally UWr Delver should be an easier matchup, especially with the sideboard I was running. I think the matchup is probably at least 60-40 in BUG's favor, but drawing 5~ lands in a row means defeat in any matchup. Anyways, BUG is once again well-positioned and will quickly make its way back to DTB/Tier 1 status.

-Sylvan Library was key to many victories. It is 100% worth running at least 1 copy in the maindeck, and definitely 2-3 copies belong somewhere in the 75. This card is how BUG Delver can consistently beat Miracles.
-Previously I ran a 1/1 split of Null Rod with Pithing Needle, but actually I find Null Rod to be more useful, hitting multiple problematic cards. I would definitely recommend running at least 1 to shut off Equipment and Aether Vial.
-Dread of Night is definitely worth running if you have Death and Taxes in your local metagame.
-I might cut 1 copy of Disfigure for something else, but I wanted to increase the likelihood of killing problem creatures on turn 1, e.g. opposing DRS.
-Tasigur gets my thumbs up. To be honest I didn't actually resolve him many times this tournament, but I did get to cast him a handful of times the previous night during the local Legacy 4-round FNM where he definitely proved useful. Casting him on Turn 3 for 1 mana is very easy... I think it would be fine to run 2 copies if you expect to see a fair amount of RUG/BUG Delver, BUG Control, and Jund decks. More copies of Tarmogoyf is good for these matchups, especially if it dodges Abrupt Decay. Anyone on the fence about him should definitely give him some testing time, I think you'll become quickly convinced of his power as an option for creature slots 13-14.

edit: updated Top 8 information.


Who won?

[o_boogie]

Hey Sourcers. Finished top 32 playing Team America at the Washington DC PIQ (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79247). I played to 5-3 with the following results:

RD 1: Miracles, win 2-0
RD 2: Dark Maverick, win 2-1
RD 3: ANT, win 2-1
RD 4: UWR Blade (Kevin Jones), loss 0-2
RD 5: Sneak and Show, loss 2-1 (had turn 1 S&T with Force back up the two games he won)
RD 6: Aggro Loam, win 2-1
RD 7: Solidarity (Feline Longmore), win 2-1
RD 8: Death and Taxes, loss 0-2 (played poorly: game 1 kept one lander on the draw not knowing my opponent's deck and he goes turn 1 vial and turn 2 Wasteland, oops; game 2 mull to five).

Some general thoughts:
-Deck felt great all day; didn't feel outclassed by any particular matchup. I am chalking the Sneak and Show stomping to variance.
-Hymn to Tourach and Wasteland are still a thing.
-The top tables had lots of Dig Through Time, True-Name Nemesis, and Young Pyromancer decks.
-Some cards that underperformed were Dimir Charm, Jace (board seems fine, main was bad), Dark Confidant, and Pithing Needle. I think I want Dig Through Time, more Disfigures and more Golgari Charms. I am also going to test running a Jitte out of the board.

Cheers.

[meffeo]

Some general thoughts:
-Deck felt great all day; didn't feel outclassed by any particular matchup. I am chalking the Sneak and Show stomping to variance.
-Hymn to Tourach and Wasteland are still a thing.
-The top tables had lots of Dig Through Time, True-Name Nemesis, and Young Pyromancer decks.
-Some cards that underperformed were Dimir Charm, Jace (board seems fine, main was bad), Dark Confidant, and Pithing Needle. I think I want Dig Through Time, more Disfigures and more Golgari Charms. I am also going to test running a Jitte out of the board.

Cheers.

I'd also cut the Charm and add a singleton DTT.

Don't you felt the absence of the 8th cantrip or of a strong finisher like Tombstalker? I do believe that the split TStalker / DTT should work well and I'd let Bob at home and Jace sitting in board.

[drocker23]

I went to a local Legacy tournament in Memphis, TN yesterday where I made Top 8 with BUG Delver. 39 Players, 6 Rounds of Swiss, Cut to Top 8. Here is the decklist I used for reference:


Sultai Delver Nick Loiacono 1st Place at StarCityGames.com Invitational Qualifier on 9/7/2014

Creatures (14)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

Lands (18)

3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Spells (28)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Disfigure
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Sylvan Library
1 Disfigure
2 Envelop
1 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge

The only thing I changed was which fetchlands I ran 2 of. I wasn't intending to but my friend was coming and I knew he was packing Surgical Extraction and he has a tendency to use them on Fetch Lands more often than most people do. I had very little experience with the deck in the pre-TC format and after extensive research this list was the one I liked the look of the best. I didn't make very many notes after each match so I'll just give a brief overview of the games.

Round 1 - UR Delver - WIN

This matchup was pretty easy the whole way through. My threats were much better than his and abrupt decay destroys their deck. I remember he got a double Swiftspear start, but an EOT Disfigure followed up by Liliana of the Veil put me ahead. He was pretty much behind the entire time. He made some play mistakes like Lightning Bolting my Liliana at 1 loyalty instead of attacking it with his creature, but he said he was fairly new to the format. In another game, he killed my threats, and I killed his, then I stuck a lonely Deathrite Shaman that kept zapping his life total while he kept bricking on his draw phases. He eventually found a removal spell for the Deathrite but I found another Deathrite and zapped him the rest of the way.

Round 2 - Dredge - WIN

Game 1 was super easy. I already knew what he was playing before the round even started so I planned to aggressively mulligan to green mana source + deathrite shaman. luckily I had both of those in my opening hand and I was on the play. I just kept removing stuff from his graveyard and cast Force of Will on his Putrid Imp and it was GG.
Game 2 he destroys me on the play. I kept a risky hand and failed to draw land. I cast a Pithing Needle on his Cephalid Coliseum but he just casted breakthrough and discarded his hand. Then he dredged into Ichorid + 2 Narcomoeba + 2 Bridge From Below over the next 2 turns.
Game 3 I lead with turn 1 Deathrite Shaman. He led with land + Lion's Eye Diamond. I let the LED resolve and when he cast Putrid Imp I Force of Will'd that. He untaps and casts Faithless Looting, I countered with Envelop. He casts another LED and flashbacks Faithless Looting with no cards in hand and put 2 meaningless cards in the GY. I cast a 2nd Deathrite Shaman and a Tarmogoyf and a turn or two later he scooped.

Round 3 - Death and Taxes - WIN

This was the craziest match ever.
Game 1 he gets stuck on Plains and Port. Good for him, bad for me, because we were killing each other's threats like crazy. But since he wasn't drawing land, he just kept drawing more and more gas.
Game 2 I mulligan to 4. He keeps 7 in hand. he never finds a single white mana source. I started off with land deathrite shaman. he wastelands me. I don't remember all the specifics of this game as it was very intense, but it basically came down to 2 things. a well timed pithing needle when he had double AEther Vial in play and zero white mana sources. he got to 4 lands over the course of the game but they were all colorless lands. I eventually got enough threats on the table to kill him.
Game 3 Totally relieved that I pulled that one out (who knew my out was that he doesn't draw white mana over a ton of turns? lol) I open my hand and AGAIN mulligan to 4. He keeps 7, and starts off with Karakas + pass. My hand was fetch land, fetch land, wasteland, ponder. I draw for turn and wasteland his karakas. he draws, and passes. no more lands!!! I cast ponder into a bunch of stuff while he sat there with no lands and started discarding Flickerwisps. No idea why he kept that hand but I squeeze out another win. He eventually does find a land, but unfortunately for him it turned out to be a Rishadan Port. Turn 1 wasteland on a mulligan to 4 FTW!

Round 4 - Sultai POD - WIN

That's right....Birthing Pod in Legacy. It's a thing, and the guy who played it against me was a very good player and made me earn every single inch of that win. Kudos to him for an insane match of magic.
Game 1 was nothing special. I killed some of his guys and played my own and got there with a pretty aggressive start.
Game 2 was nuts. I ended up casting a true-name nemesis and kept attacking him until i put him down to 3 life. He made play after play turn after turn to buy himself more turns, more outs, and keep his life total floating above 3. He eventually found himself in a Recurring Nightmare loop that I was eventually able to get my way out of. He then wipes my board with Pernicious Deed. I cast a Grafdigger's Cage. The next two turns I hard cast Force of Will on whatever he played and got a delver in play. His life total was dead to a flipped delver. I showed him a Ponder on top and he extended his hand in defeat. Turn after turn, this match was incredibly well played between both myself and my opponent. I believe we found the best lines of play every single turn and little to no mistakes were made on both sides. Needless to say I was very relieved that I was able to survive that many turns with a delver deck. Insane match.

Round 5 - Jund - ID

My opponent and I were the only undefeated players. We both agreed to draw this round since we were guaranteed Top 8.

Round 6 - UW Stoneblade - WIN

My opponent wanted to draw, but I wanted to play for the ability to play 1st in the Top 8.

One of our games was incredibly well played on his part. I led off with Turn 1 Delver, Turn 2 Tarmogoyf, Turn 3 True-Name Nemesis. He stopped all of it and killed me.
The other 2 games I don't really remember except Game 3. He didn't do much, and died to Delver + True-Name Nemesis. Turns out that even though I won the match, his tie breakers were good enough that he made top 8 anyway.

At this point, I was incredibly happy with not only my own performance playing a deck I'm not super familiar with, but also with the incredible amount of luck I had in a couple of my matchups. I played my best every single round and I was sitting in 1st place going into Top 8.

Top 8

Quarter Finals - UR Delver - LOSS

Game 1 I lead off with Delver (doesn't flip) into double Delver (doesn't flip again), into 4th Delver (doesn't flip either). he played his own delver and young pyromancer. I had 4 delver on the table and thought it best to see if he would trade his delver and pyromancer for 2 of my delver leaving me with 2 more to flip and kill him with. He traded. I didn't flp my delvers again, he played a pyromancer and killed another Delver. I don't remember how the 4th delver died, but I realized shortly after that not leaving my 4 delvers back was most certainly the wrong play. I go a little bit on tilt and tell myself I need to make better decisions if I'm going to pull out a win here. I ended up finding double Tarmogoyf and kept attacking into Pyromancer and Elemental tokens until he was finally forced to block his board away and I win the game.

Game 2 he leads off with Swiftspear on 1. I had a delver in hand but I elected to hold up stifle instead. He played a basic land next turn. and from there I was behind the whole game. none of my threats lived and he killed me with multiple swiftspears and burn.

Game 3 was incredibly tense. I don't remember everything that happened during this game but I remember it came down to the Sylvan Library I almost boarded out going into game 3. I was able to survive at 6 for a bunch of turns trying to find something to win the game with. my mana sources were low the whole game so I was kind of behind. for a bunch of turns i was drawing junk off my library holding abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse. I had a flipped delver at this point and i abrupt decayed his pyromancer. he responds with a lightning bolt on my delver. I then maelstrom pulsed his token. feeling really bad that i had to pulse 1 token, but my line of thinking was i can't allow him to ping me with a token and then Lightning Bolt me. I have to make him find 2 bolts or find deathrite shaman before I lose this game. Again, more junk on top of my library with Sylvan Library like land, land, daze. he finds a delver flips it, and in the last crucial turn I go to my sylvan library and find a ponder. cast ponder and shuffle. draw. brainstorm. cast brainstorm. land land land and i extend my hand in defeat.

I forget which game it was but in one of our games, my opponent cast brainstorm during his upkeep with a delver in play. I stifle the delver trigger. Next turn he does the same thing again. Brainstorm during upkeep and I stifled the delver trigger again. It bought be some time, and I thought it was a pretty cool play.

I had a ton of fun in this tournament and lost to the same UR Delver player I defeated in Round 1 of the Swiss. I was happy to see him take a round 1 loss and make it to top 8 and get his revenge on me. We had a really great match and people who were watching complimented on my skill as a player. My opponent told me that going into the match he was scared to play me because not only had I defeated him in Round 1, but he felt my deck was just much much better than his. It was pretty nice to gain some recognition from local players on my skill as a player. i've been working a lot harder at getting better at Magic lately and it seems like that hard work is starting to pay off. All of my opponents were very friendly, enjoyable to play against, and I extended them that same courtesy. I look forward to the next Memphis event which will be a SCG Legacy IQ!

My final placement in the tournament is still unknown to me at this point, because I did not stay until the Finals were over. I had an hour and a half drive and work the next morning, so I took my winnings and headed home. I'll get the results in a couple of days and when I do, I'll come back and post what place I got.
Overall I felt the deck was really solid. I really liked the maindeck disfigure. Liliana almost didn't make into my board originally as I decided against tweaking for this event. I mulliganed a lot in some matchups. I felt like 18 land was a little low, but that's the Delver curse. I would most certainly run this deck again in the future. I don't think I would change the maindeck any. True-Name Nemesis was a house and way better than Tombstalker. Stifle felt pretty good in Game 1's but got boarded out a lot as it was irrelevant in most of my post boarded matchups. I would run stifle again over hymn to tourach. however, I would consider cutting the 4th stifle for the 19th land. It might help the deck run a little bit smoother and not have to mulligan as often.

That's it for my report!

[Asthereal]

@drocker23: Shouldn't you side out Stifles in the UR Delver matchup?
I mean, there's some stuff you can do with Stifle, but half the plays are card disadvantage (Stifle Delver trigger, Swiftspear trigger, Pyromancer trigger) and leaving it open, as you mentioned, can be a hughe loss of tempo. How did you board?

[jnosrati]

Here's what I envision. please give me thoughts and critique. really not sure about countertop...what mtchups would it be good to transform into bug control countertop against?what do you think of the rest?

Lands (18)
• 1 Misty Rainforest
• 4 Polluted Delta
• 2 Tropical Island
• 3 Underground Sea
• 4 wasteland
• 4 strand
Creatures (14)
• 3 Deathrite Shaman
• 4 Tarmogoyf
• 3 tasigur
• 4 delver

Spells (28)
• 4 force of will
• 1 Sylvan Library
• 3 Abrupt Decay
• 4 Brainstorm
• 4 Daze
• 1 spell pierce
• 1 flusterstorm
• 1 liliana
• 3 ponder
• 2 Disfigure
• 4 stifle


Sideboard
• 1 abrupt decay (hits RIP)
• 2 needle (Merfolk, DNT, fetches …better with thoughteize, +watch for vial)
• 2 graffdiggers cage (dredge, reanimator, elves)
• 2 Golgari Charm (Maverick, miracles, RUG, DNT Watch for RIP , CB, TNN)
• 1 liliana ( Maverick, rug,bug, DNT show and tell)
• 2 toxic deluge (Maverick, RUG, DNT watch for TNN)
• 3 cb 2 top (burn, miracles, SNT… not against vial) or 4 thoughtseize 1 flusterstorm

Other options: hymn, Nihil Spellbomb (reanimator), true name

[Asthereal]

Here's what I envision. please give me thoughts and critique. really not sure about countertop...what mtchups would it be good to transform into bug control countertop against?what do you think of the rest?

Lands (18)
• 1 Misty Rainforest
• 4 Polluted Delta
• 2 Tropical Island
• 3 Underground Sea
• 4 wasteland
• 4 strand
Creatures (14)
• 3 Deathrite Shaman
• 4 Tarmogoyf
• 3 tasigur
• 4 delver

Spells (28)
• 4 force of will
• 1 Sylvan Library
• 3 Abrupt Decay
• 4 Brainstorm
• 4 Daze
• 1 spell pierce
• 1 flusterstorm
• 1 liliana
• 3 ponder
• 2 Disfigure
• 4 stifle


Sideboard
• 1 abrupt decay (hits RIP)
• 2 needle (Merfolk, DNT, fetches …better with thoughteize, +watch for vial)
• 2 graffdiggers cage (dredge, reanimator, elves)
• 2 Golgari Charm (Maverick, miracles, RUG, DNT Watch for RIP , CB, TNN)
• 1 liliana ( Maverick, rug,bug, DNT show and tell)
• 2 toxic deluge (Maverick, RUG, DNT watch for TNN)
• 3 cb 2 top (burn, miracles, SNT… not against vial) or 4 thoughtseize 1 flusterstorm

Other options: hymn, Nihil Spellbomb (reanimator), true name
Some ideas:
1. Mana base looks shaky. I'd definitely play 3x Trop in order o have consistent access to green.
2. Casting Liliana will be hard with the current mana base.
3. 3x Ponder and 3x Deathrite just looks wrong. Cantrips make you draw better cards and Deathrite is kind of the reason we play BUG Delver anyway.
4. Main deck Fluster should probably be either of the cards mentioned in 3, or a Spell Pierce (more versatile card).
5. 2x Top, 3x Counterbalance seems too low in numbers to be able to really rely on. If you want these, you should perhaps play more. Maybe swap the main deck Sylvan for a Top, that already helps. Sylvan is great, but of you want to be Counterbalancing you probably need the Top instead.

That's my 0,02$. Make of it what you will. :wink:

[drocker23]

@drocker23: Shouldn't you side out Stifles in the UR Delver matchup?
I mean, there's some stuff you can do with Stifle, but half the plays are card disadvantage (Stifle Delver trigger, Swiftspear trigger, Pyromancer trigger) and leaving it open, as you mentioned, can be a hughe loss of tempo. How did you board?

Game 2:

If I recall correctly, what I boarded OUT was:

4 Daze, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Gitaxian Probe

If I recall correctly, what I boarded IN was:

1 Disfigure, 1 Force of Will, 1 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 True-Name Nemesis

I was on the draw in game 2 and I believe game 2 is the game where I stifled his delver trigger twice after he brainstormed. I know for sure Stifle was in in game 2 because I held up stifle turn 1, and wanted to be able to play delver around Daze and with Stifle backup for what I hoped would be his fetchland activation. The games also went kind of long and grindy so I felt like my conditional counterspells like Daze and Spell Pierce would just be played around and ineffecient. I mean other than lightning bolt the cards I really care about anyway coming out of his deck are his creatures. So I was thinking it'd be okay to leave Stifle in game 2 try and get him to stumble on lands so I can pull ahead.

Game 3:

If I recall correctly, what I boarded OUT was:

4 Stifle, 2 Thoughtseize

If I recally correctly, what I boarded IN was:

4 Daze, 2 Spell Pierce

Game 3 I'm pretty sure I changed my list by taking out the 4 stifles and bringing 4 daze back in. I was on the play in Game 3 so I wanted Daze to stop his early plays. I also think that Thoughtseize came out to bring Spell Pierce back in.

I'm not saying that my sideboarded choices were correct because they probably were not. But at least now you understand what I was thinking at the time. As I mentioned before, I do not have a lot of experience playing WITH a Delver deck. I have a lot of experience playing AGAINST them, but I never really understood their whole sideboard plan of when to board out Daze, Force of Will, and Spell Pierce. So my thinking was if the game is gonna go long, I just want hard counters to push something through. In Game 3 I wanted to tempo him out with Wasteland and Daze. His hand was full of removal for my early plays, but I was able to push a Sylvan Library through which I thought was more important that the Tarmogoyf that got countered the turn before. Unfortunately my Sylvan Library didn't get me all the way there. Almost though. It was a tight match and thank goodness the UR Delver deck doesn't run Wasteland otherwise I would have lost a lot earlier when I stumbled on mana early in Game 3.

If anyone has any tips or advice on how to sideboard properly when you're playing a delver deck with Daze, Wasteland, Force of Will, Stifle, and Spell Pierce, I would really appreciate the help so I can learn how to make better decisions when playing a delver deck. I had so much fun with this build that I think I wanna play it for a while over the other builds of Temur and Jeskai.

[Asthereal]

Putting Daze back in on the play is what I usually do also.

On the draw I would probably have sided: -4 Daze, -4 Stifle, +8 useful cards (guys, removal, maybe Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce to try and stop his Bolts).

[o_boogie]

I'd also cut the Charm and add a singleton DTT.

Don't you felt the absence of the 8th cantrip or of a strong finisher like Tombstalker? I do believe that the split TStalker / DTT should work well and I'd let Bob at home and Jace sitting in board.

Thanks for the feedback.

I strongly considered playing Tombstalker for the tournament. My only concern is that everyone is playing Swords to Plowshares. Maybe the happy medium is to just run a True-Name Nemesis; or move Sylvan Library to the board and run Clique main. Will have to test.

[H]

I went to last FNM with BUG Delver and went 3-1. I was incredibly rusty, a couple times fetching the wrong land, or playing things out of sequence. That's what happens when you don't play for over a month, :laugh:

I ran essentially a stock list with 3 Hymn/2 Thoughtseize (I was expecting more combo), 1 Dimir Charm, 1 Library main, 1 Liliana, 1 Dig, 1 Tombstalker.

I knew I would like the Lili and the Library, the rest preformed adequately. I might try cutting the 2 Thoughtseize and the Charm, and go up to 4 Hymn, leaving me with 2 open flex spots, possibly for another Lili, or something like Spell Pierce.

I lost the first round against Elves, game 1 on a mull to 6, I drop a DRS, Daze his DRS. I end up drawing cantrips and lands, while I trade removal with his Symbiotes and Deathrites, he had more each time and his second Natural Order resolves and I get Hoofed (first got Forced). Game 2, I trade removal with Symbiotes, set up for a Golgari Charm to wipe his board and he fetches a Trop and Swan Songs it. I lose to a hardcast Hoof.

I beat budget Miracles (he doesn't own Force of Wills) rather handily, not much to say here, Liliana resolves and basically ends both games.

I beat UG Turbo Eldrazi, game 1, turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 Hymn leaves him with 2 lands and a Delver flip later he scoops, as he never drew more lands. Game 2, I Wasteland his first post, Hymn his Titan, and then drop threats he can't answer in time.

I beat RG Lands. Game 1 I scoop, he has double Maze of Ith plus Stage, I had a small window to draw a Wasteland and have a chance, but I don't and I lose. Game 2, I drop a turn 3 Winter Orb catching two of his lands while i had 2 Deathrites. He eventually plays a Choke, but it doesn't matter, Tombstalker and Goyf get him. Game 3 was very drawn out, I am sure I made several mistakes, but I think he made a couple too. In the end, I have to decide if I should hit Wasteland or Dark Depths with a Surgical. I hit a Depths with a Wasteland and chose Depths because he has a Stage out but no Loam yet. He had another Depths in hand, but ends up drawing Loam. He hold back my Goyfs and Stalker with a Chasm and Punishing Fires my DRS, but I land Library, but he has Exploration, Loam, and 2 Wastelands, so I can't keep any lands in play. We go to time and on turn 4 he goes for the win with 2 Punishing Fires and me at 4, after he can't pay the upkeep on Chasm. I Force the second Fire and win at 1 on my turn. Whew.

In the end, I can't really draw many conclusions except that Hymn is good, but we already knew that. More testing to come, but I think Winter Orb is a real contender for a sideboard slot though.

[Fallacy]

I'll be playing a local event this Saturday and will post my results afterwards. Here's the 75:

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf

4 Ponder
4 Hymn

4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW

1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana

4 UG Sea / 2 Bayou / 1 Trop / 4 Wasteland / 9 Fetch

SB:
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 GD Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 K Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 V Clique

I'm on the fence about having 1 Null Rod AND 1 Pithing Needle... might swap the Needle for a 3rd Disfigure, thoughts? Going into an unknown meta...

[drocker23]

I'll be playing a local event this Saturday and will post my results afterwards. Here's the 75:

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf

4 Ponder
4 Hymn

4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW

1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana

4 UG Sea / 2 Bayou / 1 Trop / 4 Wasteland / 9 Fetch

SB:
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 GD Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 K Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 V Clique

I'm on the fence about having 1 Null Rod AND 1 Pithing Needle... might swap the Needle for a 3rd Disfigure, thoughts? Going into an unknown meta...

I have a really hard time playing Bayou in a deck with Daze. Not being able to Daze due to Bayou is a problem in my opinion. I feel like the 1 spell pierce is out of place in the main as well. I also don't think Library and Liliana are required in the main since they do not flip Delver of Secrets. Also since you're only running the 1 Tropical Island, good luck keeping a green source in play that also taps for blue mana or can be returned for Daze. I think you need to rethink the mana base, and also, I don't think 4 Hymn's main is any good. If you wanna play Hymn's and Bayou's you're probably better off just playing Shardless BUG.

In a Delver tempo oriented list, which is what you are, I believe you need full access to lands that tap for blue mana and can be returned for Daze. You don't have to play stifle necessarily, but I believe you need another finisher other than Tarmogoyf. True-Name Nemesis did an enormous amount of work for me in the last tournament I played in. I believe True-Name Nemesis is much better than Tombstalker.

[Manipulato]

I have a really hard time playing Bayou in a deck with Daze. Not being able to Daze due to Bayou is a problem in my opinion. I feel like the 1 spell pierce is out of place in the main as well. I also don't think Library and Liliana are required in the main since they do not flip Delver of Secrets. Also since you're only running the 1 Tropical Island, good luck keeping a green source in play that also taps for blue mana or can be returned for Daze. I think you need to rethink the mana base, and also, I don't think 4 Hymn's main is any good. If you wanna play Hymn's and Bayou's you're probably better off just playing Shardless BUG.

In a Delver tempo oriented list, which is what you are, I believe you need full access to lands that tap for blue mana and can be returned for Daze. You don't have to play stifle necessarily, but I believe you need another finisher other than Tarmogoyf. True-Name Nemesis did an enormous amount of work for me in the last tournament I played in. I believe True-Name Nemesis is much better than Tombstalker.

The list above is the classic TA stock list which made the deck so popular & succesfull the whole last year (Till September who TC era) :wink:

TA has not the best manabase but all this bb spells need 2 Bayou. Looking that way on the deck is not the way to go.
It's a mixture between a Delver & a blue Jund deck.
The risk of 2 Bayou are worth it because that way the deck just gets so powerful cards like Hymn, Lili & Stalker.

[Fallacy]

I have a really hard time playing Bayou in a deck with Daze. Not being able to Daze due to Bayou is a problem in my opinion. I feel like the 1 spell pierce is out of place in the main as well. I also don't think Library and Liliana are required in the main since they do not flip Delver of Secrets. Also since you're only running the 1 Tropical Island, good luck keeping a green source in play that also taps for blue mana or can be returned for Daze. I think you need to rethink the mana base, and also, I don't think 4 Hymn's main is any good. If you wanna play Hymn's and Bayou's you're probably better off just playing Shardless BUG.

In a Delver tempo oriented list, which is what you are, I believe you need full access to lands that tap for blue mana and can be returned for Daze. You don't have to play stifle necessarily, but I believe you need another finisher other than Tarmogoyf. True-Name Nemesis did an enormous amount of work for me in the last tournament I played in. I believe True-Name Nemesis is much better than Tombstalker.

I've been playing this shell for years with very good success. The MB basically IS the stock Team America list, which of course allows for some flex spots (of which I choose Lily, Library, and a Spell Pierce). 9 fetch and 8 cantrips, plus Library, makes for pretty easy work of finding the necessary lands. It's almost clockwork, first dual played is UG Sea, second Bayou, third Trop... pretty much standard process. I don't agree with your comment about good luck keeping a green source, especially now that Wasteland is underplayed (at least for the time it is) Daze has never been an issue. 2 Bayou is necessary for playing Hymns and Lily. I agree that Lily and Library don't flip Delver, but they sure do loads of work in most MU's. I've tried the Stifle build before, and while it was fun, my experience shows that it doesn't play as strong in late game.

I used to play 2 Tombstalkers MB, and did enjoy that. I found during the Treasure Cruise era I was OK with 12 creatures MB, so I am going to continue with that. 1 TNN or 1 Tombstalker could be the 13th threat, yes, but for now I'm not missing it. We'll see how this weekend shakes out.

[drocker23]

I've been playing this shell for years with very good success. The MB basically IS the stock Team America list, which of course allows for some flex spots (of which I choose Lily, Library, and a Spell Pierce). 9 fetch and 8 cantrips, plus Library, makes for pretty easy work of finding the necessary lands. It's almost clockwork, first dual played is UG Sea, second Bayou, third Trop... pretty much standard process. I don't agree with your comment about good luck keeping a green source, especially now that Wasteland is underplayed (at least for the time it is) Daze has never been an issue. 2 Bayou is necessary for playing Hymns and Lily. I agree that Lily and Library don't flip Delver, but they sure do loads of work in most MU's. I've tried the Stifle build before, and while it was fun, my experience shows that it doesn't play as strong in late game.

I used to play 2 Tombstalkers MB, and did enjoy that. I found during the Treasure Cruise era I was OK with 12 creatures MB, so I am going to continue with that. 1 TNN or 1 Tombstalker could be the 13th threat, yes, but for now I'm not missing it. We'll see how this weekend shakes out.

I respect your opinion but I think you're wrong about Wasteland being underplayed. The bannings have happened and Stifle/Wasteland/Liliana/Tarmogoyf/Deathrite Shaman are coming back in full force. That is my prediction anyway. We will be going back to the era of tempo and wastelanding people out of the game. It won't take long for the format to adjust to the bannings. People will just go back to the same decks they were playing before treasure cruise got printed which was a ton of Delver.

In all fairness, I didn't play hymn to tourach or Bayou in my 75 last weekend, but Game 1's I'd fetch up Underground Sea, Tropical Island, Tropical Island and in Game 2's when I brought Liliana in I'd fetch up Underground Sea, Tropical Island, Underground Sea and never had an issue casting Liliana, still had blue mana for all my blue spells, double blue for True-Name Nemesis and Islands for my Dazes.

You said this:

"I've tried the Stifle build before, and while it was fun, my experience shows that it doesn't play as strong in late game."

I still don't think Hymn is the way to go. Hymn doesn't get any better either the later the game goes on. So what you said is not even an argument for playing Hymn to Tourach. I think Stifle has many more uses than people give it credit for. They're just not mentioned as often because Stifle is less of a blowout card later in the game than it is when you Stifle their fetchland and they stumble. But still, Stifle affects things on the board. Which is more important than what's in their hand the majority of the time. It's really good when they try to Wasteland you and you just Stifle it and they sacked a land for no reason. I'd hate to be Wastelanded out of a game with Hymn to Tourach sitting in my hand. Being able to protect myself with Stifle if need be can make use out of it when the "Stifle your Fetch Land" plan doesn't work. And anytime that their hand is relevant, like with Stoneforge Mystic, you have targeted discard to remove it. I feel like in the matchups where Hymn to Tourach is bad to cast, is a lot worse than games where Stifle is bad to cast.

I think there is an argument to playing Thoughtseize over Stifle. But not Hymn to Tourach. Hymn doesn't do enough to make me want to give up consistancy in a deck that wants to be as consistant as possible. Thoughtseize doesn't force me to play non blue lands like Bayou which don't cast any of my blue spells or bounce back with Daze.

[KobeBryan]

I'm sorry, but after reading that one line, about stifle not being strong as hymn late game, i have to chime in.

Stifle, though not as good late game as is turn 1 on the play, it is much better top deck than a hymn late game.

[jake556]

For my List I -3 Cruise and + 3 Thoughtseize seems great so far and I run the stifle build. Flex spots are 1 Pierce, and 1 Disfigure MD. Late game is tough against infiniteremoval.dek but it happens some matches we just are not favored. I agree Thoughtseize >Hymn in our deck.

[Fallacy]

I'm sorry, but after reading that one line, about stifle not being strong as hymn late game, i have to chime in.

Stifle, though not as good late game as is turn 1 on the play, it is much better top deck than a hymn late game.

Ok, maybe I should have expanded more when I made that comment, because at face value yes Stifle has the edge over Hymn. The Stifle build, perhaps it was my version of the deck, was not as strong as my favorite build which is the Hymn build in the late game. I associate the Hymn build with more Lily's and Tombstalker, which is great late game, especially if needing a bomb to change the board state. I used to play 3 Lily's often and that was the reach in many games. My Stifle build was with Bob's and fewer Lily's, while Bob was great at drawing cards early sometimes got me in trouble late. So what I should have said was I like having more Lily's and Hymns, and Tombstalker bombs versus Bob's and Stifles late. Just preference :)

[drocker23]

Ok, maybe I should have expanded more when I made that comment, because at face value yes Stifle has the edge over Hymn. The Stifle build, perhaps it was my version of the deck, was not as strong as my favorite build which is the Hymn build in the late game. I associate the Hymn build with more Lily's and Tombstalker, which is great late game, especially if needing a bomb to change the board state. I used to play 3 Lily's often and that was the reach in many games. My Stifle build was with Bob's and fewer Lily's, while Bob was great at drawing cards early sometimes got me in trouble late. So what I should have said was I like having more Lily's and Hymns, and Tombstalker bombs versus Bob's and Stifles late. Just preference :)

I never advocated running Dark Confidant in this list. But the Stifle build with True-Name Nemesis version gives you everything you're asking for without compromising your mana base. I don't call that preference. I call that good vs bad.

[Fallacy]

I never advocated running Dark Confidant in this list. But the Stifle build with True-Name Nemesis version gives you everything you're asking for without compromising your mana base. I don't call that preference. I call that good vs bad.

There are many successful versions of Team America, not just yours.

Secondly, I don't think it's right to call card selection or a deck "good vs bad," since there are lots of considerations that go building a deck, i.e. meta, card preference, play style, budgetary constraints, etc. to name a few.

[wcm8]

To be fair , budgetary constraints should be a non- factor when it comes to optimizing a deck. Whether a card costs a quarter or $100 shouldn't really enter into the discussion on The Source.

Looks like we're going back to the old Stifle vs. Hymn debate... There is no definitive answer as to which card is the superior disruption element, and nothing from the new sets really changes their relative positioning. You could even build a deck that runs both, or some of the other in the sideboard. However I think it's fair to say that if you're running Stifle, you need to justify why you're not playing Lightning Bolt, which opens a whole other line of reasoning.

Personally my vote goes to Hymn.

And come on people, run 1 Sylvan Library in the main deck!

[Fallacy]

And come on people, run 1 Sylvan Library in the main deck!

I'll cheers to that! Some people run 1 MB AND 1 SB, admittedly haven't tried that but it definitely intrigues me.

When playing with Stifles, say a 3-of for filler, is it safe to assume going to 19 lands is OK since it offers protection from opposing Wasteland? Specifically in a hybrid build, with Hymns and Stifle, Lily, maybe a TNN or Clique or Stalker.

[wcm8]

I'll cheers to that! Some people run 1 MB AND 1 SB, admittedly haven't tried that but it definitely intrigues me.

When playing with Stifles, say a 3-of for filler, is it safe to assume going to 19 lands is OK since it offers protection from opposing Wasteland? Specifically in a hybrid build, with Hymns and Stifle, Lily, maybe a TNN or Clique or Stalker.

With that type of curve? No. You're still trying to cast a bunch of 2 and 3 cmc spells, and still fight through opposing Wastelands. You won't always have a turn 1 DRS, and still need to resolve your Goyfs and Decays consistently... You'll lose far more games to mana screw than to mana flood.

And yes, I am pretty much sold on running 1 library main and 1 in the SB. This makes the Miracles matchup (and many others) much easier. I am actually considering cutting a Hymn or Daze from the main to run 2! The card is seriously that good. I would run Library wayyy before considering any slots of DTT.

[Fallacy]

With that type of curve? No. You're still trying to cast a bunch of 2 and 3 cmc spells, and still fight through opposing Wastelands. You won't always have a turn 1 DRS, and still need to resolve your Goyfs and Decays consistently... You'll lose far more games to mana screw than to mana flood.

And yes, I am pretty much sold on running 1 library main and 1 in the SB. This makes the Miracles matchup (and many others) much easier. I am actually considering cutting a Hymn or Daze from the main to run 2! The card is seriously that good. I would run Library wayyy before considering any slots of DTT.

If you wouldn't mind, what's your current 75?

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All,

I managed to pilot BUG Delver to a 1st/2nd prize split finish at locals last night. Here is my list for reference:

Maindeck:
4/4/4: Delver/DRS/Goyf
4/4/4/4/4/4: Brainstorm/Ponder/Toughtseize/Daze/FoW/AD
1/1/1/2: Sylvan Lib/Disfigure/Dismember/Lili
4/2/1/4/2/2/4: USea/Bayou/Trop/Verdant/Delta/Misty/Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I played against the following UR Delver (2-0), 12Post (2-1), Lands (2-0), and UWr Miracles (0-0-3; 1-2). In the last round my opponent and I agreed to draw but played for the experience. I won game one on a reasonable keep but then lost 2 and 3 due to partially loose keeps and land issues. In game 2 I flooded and in game 3 I was stuck on lands for a few turns and was forced to double Daze setting me back farther. Overall the deck felt pretty good. The one thing I will likely change going forward is the 4 Thoughtseizes... I think that I have better luck with and like the way Spell Pierce allows me to play. This isn't to say I am just going to slap 4 SP into the deck, but I will probably be adding at least two, maybe three. I would like to echo what wcm8 has been advocating with regard to Sylvan Library, in that the card is awesome. Some times it just acts like a Top finding you the best card each turn; however, in many match ups paying 4-8 life for an extra draw or two is not only doable but puts you in a commanding position. I am not sure that I would want the second in the maindeck but a second copy in the board for Miracles and other grindy match ups seems like a fine plan. I did not have the need to cast my Dismember this week. I was able to counter the only Baneslayer that I was faced with and additionally there were no opposing Goyfs. I am not completely sold on Tasigur, the Golden Fang, but I will give it a shot in testing. As you can see from my above list, I have not added any Dig Through Time, so it is a possibility that 1-2 Tasigur would be exactly "Goyfs" 5-6. wcm8 can you speak to his activated ability? Do you end up activating it at all or are you simply interested in the 4/5 for :1::b: or :b:? The frame and dodging Abrupt Decay and Bolt seem tempting enough to me. I am just curious as to your experience so far. Anyway if you have any questions, let me know and as always, thanks for reading!

[Tokyo630]

To be fair , budgetary constraints should be a non- factor when it comes to optimizing a deck. Whether a card costs a quarter or $100 shouldn't really enter into the discussion on The Source.

Looks like we're going back to the old Stifle vs. Hymn debate... There is no definitive answer as to which card is the superior disruption element, and nothing from the new sets really changes their relative positioning. You could even build a deck that runs both, or some of the other in the sideboard. However I think it's fair to say that if you're running Stifle, you need to justify why you're not playing Lightning Bolt, which opens a whole other line of reasoning.

Personally my vote goes to Hymn.

And come on people, run 1 Sylvan Library in the main deck!

Here, here! 1 Maindeck Sylvan Library has been insane for me as well.

As far as the Hymn vs Stifle debate goes, my vote is in favor of Hymn. My rationale is that you want to be a very aggressive deck, not a reactionary one, so Hymn is more what the deck wants. I have been playing 3 Hymn, 2 Lilly, 2 Pierce in my build for a long while and it has done very well.

Here's the list I'm running now that TC is banned: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bug-delver-04-03-14-1/

Edit: On the topic of Tasigur, I am absolutely against it. Not only does his ability cost 4 mana (a lot for this deck as it is), but he's also a LEGENDARY CREATURE. I expect to see a LOT of Death and Taxes in the meta in the upcoming months, and Karakas exists. At that point, you're effectively emptying your yard of Shaman fuel with also putting a bounce-able dude on the field. The incremental card advantage he may provide does not seem worth it at that point.

[wcm8]

If you wouldn't mind, what's your current 75?

My list is fairly standard, but it's the tried-and-true list of what works.

20 Lands (4 sea, 2 bayou, 1 trop, 4 waste, 9 fetch)
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
1 Tasigur
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Hymn
4 Decay
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze

SB:
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
2 Envelop
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 V. Clique
1 Dread of Night
1 [flex] -- currently it's a 2nd Clique

Explanation of choices:

The maindeck is built purely for consistency against a broad field. I totally understand the validity in cutting some numbers and fitting in stuff like Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce, Disfigures, other threats, etc., but overall these cards in these numbers have performed well.

As for the sideboard:

Disfigure and Golgari Charm are fairly self-explanatory. Don't forget that all of the modes for Charm are useful -- regeneration vs. Bolt/Decay decks (and sometimes killing unflipped Delvers and un-threshed Mongeese), and removing Enchantments vs. Miracles are common usages beyond just clearing out X/1 creatures.

The 2nd Null Rod used to be a Pithing Needle, but actually I find Null Rod to be much more powerful and worth running 2 copies. It's nice to have such a strong card against Affinity, MUD, Painter (to an extent), Belcher and other storm decks that play LEDS + Lotus Petals, and hits Aether Vial/Equipment decks pretty hard. It shuts down other random cards like SDT, Thopter Foundry, Engineered Explosives, and these decks sometimes also bring in Relic of Progenitus.

Sylvan Library is simply a bomb, and I could see an argument for the 2nd copy going maindeck.

Envelop is occasionally swapped for Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm or Thoughtseize, depending upon what brand of combo I expect to see. However Envelop I think is correct for the time being as long as Show and Tell and Miracles remain DTB.

Cage is your token graveyard hate that also has some utility against Elves and similar strategies. Along with your 4 DRS and counterspells, you should have a fair shot at beating Dredge and Reanimator without having to spend additional slots on graveyard hate. YMMV

Maelstrom Pulse could be a Krosan Grip, but I like being able to kill creatures, sweep tokens and also take down Planeswalkers.

V. Clique is another threat against control and combo, and isn't too bad elsewhere. She could sometimes take the Tasigur slot in the maindeck, but I've been happy with Goyf #5 for the time being.

Dread of Night I feel is a necessary slot due to how otherwise poor the DnT/token white creatures matchup can be, but could be swapped for alternatives if there aren't any Thalia/Mother of Runes/Lingering Souls decks in your meta.

The flex slot is whatever -- more removal, more grave hate, more combo hate, etc. At my last tournament I think I ran the 4th Disfigure, expecting a lot of aggro decks.

[drocker23]

"However I think it's fair to say that if you're running Stifle, you need to justify why you're not playing Lightning Bolt, which opens a whole other line of reasoning."

1) Abrupt Decay
2) Deathrite Shaman
2) RUG has a lot of trouble with removing True-Name Nemesis and Tarmogoyf
3) Better matchup vs combo because of being able to play with discard spells
4) Better long game with the ability to drain opponent's health with Deathrite Shaman
5) The ability to blow up an opponent's board and keep them hellbent with Liliana of the Veil
6) This deck has room to play bombs like True-Name Nemesis, Tombstalker, or maybe even Tasigur, the Golden Fang
7) Better matchup vs Miracles with better outs to Counterbalance locks
8) Better game 1 matchups vs GY based decks due to Deathrite Shaman
9) Has an easier time surviving stifle and wasteland when we have Deathrite Shaman to still make us mana
10) Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay give us outs to getting Blood Moon'd
11) More outs to opposing True-Name Nemesis that coincidentally works great against Death and Taxes and Elves
12) Abrupt Decay is an efficient way out of a resolved Rest in Peace

[drocker23]

"V. Clique is another threat against control and combo, and isn't too bad elsewhere. She could sometimes take the Tasigur slot in the maindeck, but I've been happy with Goyf #5 for the time being."

I've never tested Tasigur, but something else to consider if you want Tarmogoyf #5 would be Scavenging Ooze. There was a time when it was correct to bring in Scavenging Ooze in the RUG Delver mirrors as Tarmogoyf #5 and of course to keep their Nimble Mongoose under control. I don't see why the same concept wouldn't apply now. In fact, Scavenging Ooze is a great way to break Deathrite Shaman stalemates.

[wcm8]

Honestly, running only 12 threats is fine, and you can make valid arguments for just about any option for the creature slot(s) 13-14.

The advantages Tasigur has over Ooze: only costs potentially 1 B; is immediately threatening; dodges Bolt and Decay; does not require any mana investment; can potentially gain card advantage.

That all said, you could make equally compelling arguments for Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, baleful strix, Tombstalker, TNN, Clique, nimble mongoose, heck even fringe stuff like Chasm Stalker, Quirion Dryad, Trygon Predator, Kitchen Finks, etc. Pretty much every creature is going to have a scenario where it's better than the alternatives.

[maharis]

Hi guys -- I'm breaking into blue with this deck because the best prices I found on duals were seas and trops, go figure. I'm looking for a little help getting going while I acquire all the cards.

Goyf is a sticking point with me, I just dropped a few hundred on priceless, unreprintable duals and I'm not really ready to spend 6 bills on a set of creatures that die to all removal and GY hate and could be reprinted again in June. I'd like to hold off till then to pick them up.

When I played against BUG delver back in the pre-cruise days, the creature that always killed me was TNN. So I'm planning on playing a couple of them. I also think a couple Delve creatures would be good to combat opposing tarmogoyfs and give me that "cheaty" beater.

This is the sketch of what I'm starting with:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Hooting Mandrills

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare (this is my 4th force for the moment until I track down one at a decent price)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

That gives me 7 slots to play with. Should it just be 3 Hymn, 4 Seize? Is it worth playing more removal MD? I really want to play Tombstalker as my delve creature but feel I should err on the side of only requiring one mana. Tasigur could have minor upside in longer games, while Mandrills beats opposing TNNs nicely.

Thanks for any help.

[btm10]

My instinct is either Scavenging Ooze or Quirion Dryad would be better than Mandrills, and I'd run 4 of whatever before adding 7 disruption slots above what you're already running. As for what disruption to run, your manabase (and TNN) really favor a blue-heavy list, so I'd go with Stifle. It also lets you cut narrow cards like Spell Snare for a third Pierc because it will stay good longer or you could cut the Snare and add a piece of flexible MD removal like Disfigure, Diabolic Edict, or Dismember.

[Fallacy]

V Clique is another good one. Plays the role of both a threat and disruption.

[H]

V Clique is another good one. Plays the role of both a threat and disruption.

That is one reason I like Clique. Another is that, while I have run Tombstalker before and rarely had an issue (besides it being in the opening 7), I think there is some value in running a threat that does not rely on the Graveyard at all. Chances are good that Rest in Peace will be seen much more now than while Cruise was still legal, so the time to be even just a little less Graveyard-centric might be now.

[Asthereal]

Hi guys -- I'm breaking into blue with this deck because the best prices I found on duals were seas and trops, go figure. I'm looking for a little help getting going while I acquire all the cards.

Goyf is a sticking point with me, I just dropped a few hundred on priceless, unreprintable duals and I'm not really ready to spend 6 bills on a set of creatures that die to all removal and GY hate and could be reprinted again in June. I'd like to hold off till then to pick them up.

When I played against BUG delver back in the pre-cruise days, the creature that always killed me was TNN. So I'm planning on playing a couple of them. I also think a couple Delve creatures would be good to combat opposing tarmogoyfs and give me that "cheaty" beater.

This is the sketch of what I'm starting with:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Hooting Mandrills

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare (this is my 4th force for the moment until I track down one at a decent price)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

That gives me 7 slots to play with. Should it just be 3 Hymn, 4 Seize? Is it worth playing more removal MD? I really want to play Tombstalker as my delve creature but feel I should err on the side of only requiring one mana. Tasigur could have minor upside in longer games, while Mandrills beats opposing TNNs nicely.

Thanks for any help.
Only 3 Forces and no Goyfs will not become an optimal list, but I'll try to send you in the right direction.

Creatures:
- Tasigur seems strictly better than Mandrils.
* Note that other than the above, every guy has upsides and downsides.

Spells:
* First question you need to ask yourself is: do I play tapout strategy, or reactive strategy.
- Tapout strategy has Hymn, Daze, Force and perhaps Thoughtseize as disruption.
- Reactive strategy has Spell Pierce, maybe Stifle, maybe Spell Snare next to Force and Daze.

Lands:
- Tapout strategy has BB in many mana cost. Bayou is an important land here.
- Reactive strategy often runs no card costing BB at all. Bayou is not needed here.

Suggested lists for both strats (sideboards not included, we can do those later):



Tapout NoGoyf 3FoW TA

4 Delver
4 Deathrite
3 Tasigur
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
1 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Sea
2 Bayou
1-2 Tropical
8-9 UBG Fetch
4 Wasteland
Reactive NoGoyf 3FoW TA

4 Delver
4 Deathrite
3 Tasigur
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Sea
3 Tropical
8 UBG Fetch
4 Wasteland

[wcm8]

Hi guys -- I'm breaking into blue with this deck because the best prices I found on duals were seas and trops, go figure. I'm looking for a little help getting going while I acquire all the cards.

Goyf is a sticking point with me, I just dropped a few hundred on priceless, unreprintable duals and I'm not really ready to spend 6 bills on a set of creatures that die to all removal and GY hate and could be reprinted again in June. I'd like to hold off till then to pick them up.

When I played against BUG delver back in the pre-cruise days, the creature that always killed me was TNN. So I'm planning on playing a couple of them. I also think a couple Delve creatures would be good to combat opposing tarmogoyfs and give me that "cheaty" beater.

This is the sketch of what I'm starting with:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Hooting Mandrills

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare (this is my 4th force for the moment until I track down one at a decent price)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

That gives me 7 slots to play with. Should it just be 3 Hymn, 4 Seize? Is it worth playing more removal MD? I really want to play Tombstalker as my delve creature but feel I should err on the side of only requiring one mana. Tasigur could have minor upside in longer games, while Mandrills beats opposing TNNs nicely.

Thanks for any help.

Definitely give 4 Hymn a try.

Before buying anything else, get yourself a Sylvan Library.

[Fallacy]

Against Miracles, what would be preferred SB'ing on play and draw? My SB looks like this:

2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 GD Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique

I posted my deck a few days ago if you want to see MB, but it's the stock build (4 Hymns, 12 creatures, 1 Spell Pierce, 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Liliana, etc.).

On play:
-X Abrupt Decay, Keep any for SDTop?
-X Wasteland
Keep 4 Daze in, or cut any?

+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod? Is a 1-of too narrow for SDTop?
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Vendilion Clique
+X Flusterstorm

On draw:
-X Abrupt Decay, Keep any for SDTop?
-X Wasteland

+2 Golgari Charm? (for Counterbalance)
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod? Is a 1-of too narrow for SDTop?
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Vendilion Clique
+X Flusterstorm

Input appreciated!

[wcm8]

You can usually cut the 2nd Bayou, all of the Dazes (especially on draw), and 2-4 Wasteland depending on if your opponent is fetching basics. Don't cut any Decay unless you know for certain he's cutting Counterbalance, even then you don't want to lose to Blood Moon or Rest in Peace. You can cut some Hymns if you need more slots. If you need even more slots, it's sometimes okay to cut a Goyfs or two since it's often the worst threat in this matchup

Definitely bring in Null Rod. Besides SDT, it shuts of engineered explosives and any other random artifacts they might have.

[o_boogie]

Based on your list I would probably do something like this on both the play and draw:

-3 Abrupt Decay (not too many good targets since most opponents side out Counterbalance)
-4 Daze (they always play around this; games go long so it is bad topdeck late)
-2 Wasteland (they run a lot of basics and generally will not attacks your mana)
-1 Tarmogoyf (dies to everything and RIP; bring in Clique for this)
-1 Hymn (bring in Thoughtseize to gain perfect information and hit win cons rather than random cards)

+2 Flusterstorm (win stack wars)
+1 Pithing Needle (names SDT and Jace)
+1 Spell Pierce (good utility)
+2 Golgari Charm (kills Counterbalance, RIP, Moat, Energy Field, Snapcaster, Clique; also regenerates dorks in response to Supreme Verdict)
+1 Null Rod (shuts off SDT and Batterskull)
+1 Krosan Grip (kills SDT, Batterskull, Counterbalance, RIP, Moat, Energy Field)
+1 Maelstrom Pulse (kills Jace, Angel tokens)
+1 Vendilion Clique (in response to miracle trigger; can pressure Jace EOT)
+1 Thoughtseize (nab SDT turn 1 or Jace later)

I think there are valid arguments to sideboarding differently based on play style. I know some like to keep in Daze/Wasteland on the play to try and win quickly. I also believe there is merit to cutting some discard since games go long and it is a bad topdeck late. Personally, I have found the best way to beat the deck is to keep them off SDT; without the card selection they are just a bad control deck.

[Star|Scream]

"However I think it's fair to say that if you're running Stifle, you need to justify why you're not playing Lightning Bolt, which opens a whole other line of reasoning."

1) Abrupt Decay
2) Deathrite Shaman
2) RUG has a lot of trouble with removing True-Name Nemesis and Tarmogoyf
3) Better matchup vs combo because of being able to play with discard spells
4) Better long game with the ability to drain opponent's health with Deathrite Shaman
5) The ability to blow up an opponent's board and keep them hellbent with Liliana of the Veil
6) This deck has room to play bombs like True-Name Nemesis, Tombstalker, or maybe even Tasigur, the Golden Fang
7) Better matchup vs Miracles with better outs to Counterbalance locks
8) Better game 1 matchups vs GY based decks due to Deathrite Shaman
9) Has an easier time surviving stifle and wasteland when we have Deathrite Shaman to still make us mana
10) Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay give us outs to getting Blood Moon'd
11) More outs to opposing True-Name Nemesis that coincidentally works great against Death and Taxes and Elves
12) Abrupt Decay is an efficient way out of a resolved Rest in Peace

You've outlined 12 awesome reasons why to play BUG, but none of why to play stifle in BUG that works better than stifle in RUG. Basically, what I believe he was asking, is why are you playing stifle in a list that can't capitalize on it the way RUG can?

[sauce]

You've outlined 12 awesome reasons why to play BUG, but none of why to play stifle in BUG that works better than stifle in RUG. Basically, what I believe he was asking, is why are you playing stifle in a list that can't capitalize on it the way RUG can?

What is it you think BUG is missing that RUG has (bolt?) where BUG can't capitalize on stifle as well as RUG?
Is it Nimble mongoose vs DRS? Because otherwise we have Goyfs and Delvers as well.
You (can) play Stifle in BUG because it helps w/ the Daze/Wasteland tempo plan just like it does in RUG. The only diff in RUG it also helps reach Threshold coincidentally by being a spell that goes to the GY.

[Star|Scream]

What is it you think BUG is missing that RUG has (bolt?)

Yes

[KobeBryan]

"However I think it's fair to say that if you're running Stifle, you need to justify why you're not playing Lightning Bolt, which opens a whole other line of reasoning."

1) Abrupt Decay
2) Deathrite Shaman
2) RUG has a lot of trouble with removing True-Name Nemesis and Tarmogoyf
3) Better matchup vs combo because of being able to play with discard spells
4) Better long game with the ability to drain opponent's health with Deathrite Shaman
5) The ability to blow up an opponent's board and keep them hellbent with Liliana of the Veil
6) This deck has room to play bombs like True-Name Nemesis, Tombstalker, or maybe even Tasigur, the Golden Fang
7) Better matchup vs Miracles with better outs to Counterbalance locks
8) Better game 1 matchups vs GY based decks due to Deathrite Shaman
9) Has an easier time surviving stifle and wasteland when we have Deathrite Shaman to still make us mana
10) Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay give us outs to getting Blood Moon'd
11) More outs to opposing True-Name Nemesis that coincidentally works great against Death and Taxes and Elves
12) Abrupt Decay is an efficient way out of a resolved Rest in Peace

I was playing BRUG, i guess i'm going to resleeve BUG back.

This does not help your argument stifle is better than hymn though

1. Abrupt decay - makes no difference between stifle and hymn
2. deathrite - no difference. It may even help with stifle instead since you can tap out on your real lands and keep this sucker at bay.
3. No difference between stifle and hymn
4. same as above
5. same as above
6. we all love bombs. But no difference.
7. stifle helps with miracles A LOT
8. no difference, in fact, stifle is probably better since you wont help discard them.
9. same
10. same
11. RUG does have a slight edge with Pyroclasm.
12. I love them decays man.

I dont' see why BUG can't play stifle. There is no reason stifle is relegated to RUG. In fact the things you mentioned may be better with stifle than hymn. I've stifled a RIP before. Its pretty sweet.

[KobeBryan]

Only 3 Forces and no Goyfs will not become an optimal list, but I'll try to send you in the right direction.

Creatures:
- Tasigur seems strictly better than Mandrils.
* Note that other than the above, every guy has upsides and downsides.

Spells:
* First question you need to ask yourself is: do I play tapout strategy, or reactive strategy.
- Tapout strategy has Hymn, Daze, Force and perhaps Thoughtseize as disruption.
- Reactive strategy has Spell Pierce, maybe Stifle, maybe Spell Snare next to Force and Daze.

Lands:
- Tapout strategy has BB in many mana cost. Bayou is an important land here.
- Reactive strategy often runs no card costing BB at all. Bayou is not needed here.

Suggested lists for both strats (sideboards not included, we can do those later):



Tapout NoGoyf 3FoW TA

4 Delver
4 Deathrite
3 Tasigur
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
1 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Sea
2 Bayou
1-2 Tropical
8-9 UBG Fetch
4 Wasteland
Reactive NoGoyf 3FoW TA

4 Delver
4 Deathrite
3 Tasigur
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Sea
3 Tropical
8 UBG Fetch
4 Wasteland



Decks clunky without goyf. Especially with a delve creature. and a 3 of as well.

[maharis]

Thanks guys. I'm surprised there isn't more love for the delve creatures as goyf replacements. I'm aware that Goyf is Goyf, just want to see what MM2 holds before committing major dollars. Now watch them reprint Underground Sea there and I look silly (joking!)

I'm correct to not run more than 2 TNN right? Mana seems tough there. My idea behind the Delve cards is that between them and DRS I should be able to control opposing goyfs.

I didn't realize Sylvan Library was standard in this deck now, that's sweet. I've been playing rock/junk for a while now, card is insane.

I think I'll go for a more tapout style so I can play hymn/lili/extra removal. Thanks again for the assist. I'll figure out some extra creature.

[kryllex]

What's up with that Tasigur-Hype lately? Am I the only one that thinks that this dude is extremely overrated and bad? :laugh:
No, seriously - why would you prefer this guy over Tombstalker?? :confused:

[KobeBryan]

What's up with that Tasigur-Hype lately? Am I the only one that thinks that this dude is extremely overrated and bad? :laugh:
No, seriously - why would you prefer this guy over Tombstalker?? :confused:

I also think he sucks. Rather play big ol tombstalker than him. I know its 1 B, but getting to 2 B in this deck is not hard and especially if you run such a low number of taisgur. If you run 4, i understand the stress on the mana base.

[maharis]

I also think he sucks. Rather play big ol tombstalker than him. I know its 1 B, but getting to 2 B in this deck is not hard and especially if you run such a low number of taisgur. If you run 4, i understand the stress on the mana base.

I agree that Tasigur is generally underwhelming and Karakas exists. I actually wanted to play tombstalker but I was worried about Bayou + Daze. Maybe I should switch to a midrange build until I pick up Goyfs.

[phazonmutant]

Thanks guys. I'm surprised there isn't more love for the delve creatures as goyf replacements. I'm aware that Goyf is Goyf, just want to see what MM2 holds before committing major dollars. Now watch them reprint Underground Sea there and I look silly (joking!)

I'm correct to not run more than 2 TNN right? Mana seems tough there. My idea behind the Delve cards is that between them and DRS I should be able to control opposing goyfs.

I didn't realize Sylvan Library was standard in this deck now, that's sweet. I've been playing rock/junk for a while now, card is insane.

I think I'll go for a more tapout style so I can play hymn/lili/extra removal. Thanks again for the assist. I'll figure out some extra creature.
Snip I agree that Tasigur sucks and BURG might be good. I've been enjoying BURG recently and it doesn't lose all that much from not playing Goyf. I'm fairly confident that BUG is unplayable without Goyf. Goyf is a big dumb tapout beater who can play offense and defense, which is great for a tapout aggro-midrange deck like BUG.

With BURG, you can play Mongoose, True-Name Nemesis, and Vendilion Clique as replacements.

[wcm8]

Can't wait for ya'lls to be proven dead wrong about Tasigur.

Getting to 4 mana actually isn't all that difficult for BUG. From about turns 5/6~ onwards, he becomes an immediate MUST-KILL threat that can very quickly run away with the game if left unanswered.

The downside of your opponent choosing the card can be at least partially mitigated by Delving away situationally dead cards and/or removing them as potential targets with the help of your own DRS. Worst case, 'dead' cards become Brainstorm/fetch shuffle fodder.

It is possible that the deck that best utilizes him at 3-4 copies may end up being something more closely resembling Shardless BUG/BUG-midrange (i.e. dropping Daze and/or Delver of Secrets, possibly adding Snapcaster Mage and other cards). However he's definitely awesome as creature #13-14 in BUG Delver.

[sauce]

Tasigur is not good in BUG Delver. It is a fine card otherwise.

[Asthereal]

Tasigur is not good in BUG Delver. It is a fine card otherwise.
This made me laugh. What a random statement. Have you played 50 test games with him as a three-of, so you drew him all the time and actually got to see how he performs? You haven't, have you?

If there is a deck in Legacy in which Tasigur can do some damage, it has to be a deck that has cantrips and fetches, in order to fill up the yard quickly. It has to be a deck that can defend him against whatever stuff your opponent can throw at him. BUG Delver seems the only real candidate.

Sure, he has disadvantages. Karakas makes him look very silly. So do Rest in Peace and Jace. But all support guys in this deck have their disadvantages. Stalker has no issues with Karakas, but his casting cost is more demanding. True-Name has a similarly demanding casting cost, and he is absolutely terrible against combo. Clique dies to a cough from your opponent and Ooze is a hopeless clock on its own. But none of them cost B to cast. Casting Tasigur, leaving U open for your Spell Pierce? Try that with True-Name. Tasigur has potential. Many of you are just not open minded enough to see it.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Is there a thread/post which details how to use Sylvan Library properly? I think I know... but to paraphrase Mr Rumsfeld, you don't know what you don't know.

[wcm8]

Is there a thread/post which details how to use Sylvan Library properly? I think I know... but to paraphrase Mr Rumsfeld, you don't know what you don't know.

Jam it as early as possible against combo and control opponents (even in advance of laying down a threat if that's the choice). If the choice is between casting this and Hymn, it depends on the circumstance -- like against Storm combo, you're probably safer off Hymning them, which will likely buy you a bit more time. Against control opponents I would actually prioritize getting Sylvan online ahead of resolving a threat.

Once resolved, it's basically an upkeep SDT on steroids. You can aggressively pay life for cards against decks which don't really threaten your life total very quickly (e.g. Miracles), but against Bolt and aggressive decks and such you need to be more careful (although there are still instances where paying 8+ life against something Like Jund is correct if the cards you're drawing are going to bury them that turn.)

Really, it's not a card that easily fits into following hard rules as so much depends on the particular circumstance.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Ok. But if there's only one in the main deck, statistically, you might only see it 1 in 3 games? For such a powerful card, why not 2 in the main? Brainstorm and Ponder, as well as itself, can easily adjust to drawing the unwanted second copy, no?

[KobeBryan]

Ok. But if there's only one in the main deck, statistically, you might only see it 1 in 3 games? For such a powerful card, why not 2 in the main? Brainstorm and Ponder, as well as itself, can easily adjust to drawing the unwanted second copy, no?

I found having 2 sylvans to be too many in game 1. In game two, if you need it against miracles, then you board it in.

There are just too many delver decks, even after the banning to run 2 sylvans main. The sylvans are too slow in that matchup, unless you are able to push it to turn 5 and with good board control, but with those delver decks, you never know.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

With Ponder, you actually run into the singleton copy of Sylvan quite frequently.

[H]

I went 5-0-1 at this week's FNM, with the following results:

Round 1: 2-0 vs budget Bant Hexproof (Giest nearly gets me but his use of Phrexian mana spells cost him the game)
Round 2: 2-0 vs UWR Blade (many much Goyf get around a few TNN)
Round 3: 2-1 vs TES (I cut him to his only out of Burning Wish game 1, other games were won by Hymn or double Hymn)
Round 4: 2-1 versus Lands (I scoop up game 1 to a Punishing Fire and Loam lock, game 2 he gets stuck on colored mana and Deathrites take over, game 3 he has triple Maze of Ith and Stage copying Maze holding back 3 Goyf and Clique, then I rip Needle and savagely name Maze)
Round 5: Draw vs Dredge (played for fun and won 2-0 on Deathrites)
Top 8: 2-0 vs UR Burn (He runs umm, Blazing Shoal? He hits me for 9 turn 1, I fight through some burn and stabilize at 6 when he sacrifices two Mountains for Fireblast on my lethal Delver without taping for mana, so I Daze it. He makes a big deal that he meant to and I am too tired to argue, so I let him have it. He loses a few turns later with no lands. Game 2 he hits me for 15 on turn 1, I play Goyf and hold down the fort, draw just enough of everything to beat him down with the lone beater.)

It's 1 am so we split.

So, I am reasonably happy with my sideboard.

2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical
2 BEB
2 Disfigure
1 Winter Orb
1 K Grip
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Cage

I am considering cutting the Grip, but I am not sure for what. Possibly also the BEBs. I find I lose to Elves more than I think I should. Also, can anybody comment of the Shardless BUG matchup? I have very little experience with it.

Sorry for the hackneyed post, working from my phone.

[Manipulato]

Jim Davis is currently rocking 10:2 with a Stifle Bobby build. ..

[btm10]

I am considering cutting the Grip, but I am not sure for what. Possibly also the BEBs. I find I lose to Elves more than I think I should. Also, can anybody comment of the Shardless BUG matchup? I have very little experience with it.


I don't have a ton of experience against Elves, sorry. I would guess that it's just variance with 2 Disfigures and 2 Charms being a lot of good cards for the matchup. I've found Shardless to be even to slightly unfavorable, but it's very close either way. The variations in how Shardless and Delver are built seem to change the specific dynamics of the matchup, with the Strix builds lacking MD Force tending to be harder to beat than the Lejay build or the more conventional 3 Force build because they can play the attrition game better.

[sauce]

This made me laugh. What a random statement. Have you played 50 test games with him as a three-of, so you drew him all the time and actually got to see how he performs? You haven't, have you?

If there is a deck in Legacy in which Tasigur can do some damage, it has to be a deck that has cantrips and fetches, in order to fill up the yard quickly. It has to be a deck that can defend him against whatever stuff your opponent can throw at him. BUG Delver seems the only real candidate.

Sure, he has disadvantages. Karakas makes him look very silly. So do Rest in Peace and Jace. But all support guys in this deck have their disadvantages. Stalker has no issues with Karakas, but his casting cost is more demanding. True-Name has a similarly demanding casting cost, and he is absolutely terrible against combo. Clique dies to a cough from your opponent and Ooze is a hopeless clock on its own. But none of them cost B to cast. Casting Tasigur, leaving U open for your Spell Pierce? Try that with True-Name. Tasigur has potential. Many of you are just not open minded enough to see it.

The card literally does nothing when in play. You want to hold up 4 mana (who even has that kind of mana in play let alone kept untapped) to cast a marginal regrowth? I don't. It does not flip Delver, it does almost nothing until very late game and it is a nonbo w/ Goyf & DRS (unlike Treasure cruise which used to let you refill the yard very quickly).
I saw it played and it was the nut low, I don't need to test w/ 3 of them to see how the card is bad.
I am certain it may be decent in the mirror but otherwise, I would never want even 1 in my deck.

[btm10]

The card literally does nothing when in play.

Except be a 4/5 for B. Even if he pinged you each upkeep like Juzam he's be testable. Since he's better than that, I'm going to test him. I'm putting the odds on him being good-to-great in the mirror and pretty solid against any deck that doesn't run Karakas.

[Asthereal]

The card literally does nothing when in play.


Except be a 4/5 for B. Even if he pinged you each upkeep like Juzam he's be testable. Since he's better than that, I'm going to test him. I'm putting the odds on him being good-to-great in the mirror and pretty solid against any deck that doesn't run Karakas.
Exactly.

[sauce]

Jim Davis, any Tesugurs? I guess 0 Tesugurs is wrong.

[Manipulato]

Jim Davis, any Tesugurs? I guess 0 Tesugurs is wrong.

The other Top 32 players (One on 10th I think and one on 24th place) had 2 Tasigur in they`re MD :wink:

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Jim Davis' build was with Stifle & Bob, with 13 counters. Tasigur might fit better in a traditional tapout strategy, no?

[Fallacy]

I played in a very small Legacy event on Sunday, turns out that 98% of the people that were expected at this event traveled to Indy this weekend to play instead. I played against a mono red Blood Moon brew, Merfolk, Maverick, and Infect.

Match 1 Blood Moon Brew, 0-2. T1 Blood Moon game 1, and T2 Magnus on game 2. Quickest match of Magic I've ever played.
Match 2 Merfolks 1-2. Was in commanding lead all games, except games 2 and 3 he top-decked a Relic of Progenitus the turn I would have killed him. To add insult, he had mostly Mishra's Factory and Mutavaults in play to deal the remaining damage. Bad luck.
Match 3 Maverick, 1-2. I don't exactly remember how it played out, but basically it came down to who was on the play won the game.
Match 4 Infect, 2-0. Established tempo both games, hitting resources with Wasteland, Disfigure, Lily, and Daze/Pierce.

Seeing how Maverick is making a stronger resurgence (see Top 32 SCG Indy Open), how do we best handle that deck? I play a lot against it, and I'd say I'm 40/60 to it. I play the classic TA build with 4 Hymns and 2 Lily's, 12 creature package. Seems whomever plays first has the distinct advantage, but if they game goes long usually Maverick pulls through. My experience tells me Mother of Runes is a must counter/kill on the spot. Thalia pseudo Time Walks us, and by that time a KotR or Ooze or SFM is in play. Between their DRS and Ooze, our resources get challenged. The only sure damage is Delver, which leads me to think is Tombstalker best to bring in against Mav? I tend to think the Stifle build could be better against them (everything costs 1 mana making Thalia less threatening, and Stifles protect against all of their activated abilities).

Thoughts?

[wcm8]

Run at least 1 copy of Dread of Night. For how difficult MoR and Thalia are for BUG, there's no reason to not have at least one sideboard slot for them if your meta has those decks. After all we spend slots on stuff like Krosan Grip and whatnot. Beyond that you want some more removal in the sideboard: Massacre, Diabolic Edict, Toxic Deluge, Golgari Charm, Submerge, etc. Speaking of Charm, try to reduce the likelihood that you run into a Choke blowout by sandbagging Decay/Charm if possible. Rest in Peace is another speedbump they may bring in against you that you'll want to answer quickly. Null Rod is an effective way to shut off their SFM plan.

If you're running 4 Hymn, consider cutting at least some of them in games 2/3. These games tend to go long anyways and there is a possibility they have the Wilt-Leaf Liege.

You'll also want to maybe run more maindeck removal beyond just the 3-4 Abrupt Decay if you expect to run into this matchup frequently. Disfigure, Dismember, and maybe 1 Murderous Cut are all considerations. 1-2 copies of Liliana of the Veil are generally good.

Altogether this is not really a good matchup. The deck is a natural foil to Delver/tempo strategies, so unless you're seeing it all the time I wouldn't stress about it too much. Every deck has its poor matchups, and BUG Delver is no exception.

- - -

Regarding a supposed 'perfect' deck list: Not gonna happen. At least until they print enough powerful cards that are so much more powerful than alternative options. For now, there are instead plenty of Tier 1 cards to choose from that have their relative power dependent upon particular scenarios.

There are about 50~ cards we can all pretty much agree on for this archetype, but beyond that the the final few choices come down to metagame, how the rest of your deck & sideboard is configured, and plain dumb luck (i.e. which decks you end up facing and dodging in a tournament). For example, some tournaments you'll feel like a genius for running some Submerge in the sideboard, in others you'd wish you'd have packed more general removal.

Tasigur is similar. In some matchups you'll be glad you packed him and he's arguably the best threat in the deck. In other matchups you'll cut him in games 2 and 3 every time. I think he probably works best in a tap-out Hymn list that builds up its graveyard quickly and demands an early answer. The same is true of all other additional threats: some matchups they are nuts; in others they are nearly worthless.

My prediction is that BGx decks will become more popular in the coming weeks, making Tasigur a solid choice.

Personally, I've not had much luck running Stifle builds ever since around the time DRS entered the format. Part of it may be the general paranoia of my local opponents' always playing around Stifle, but in general I find nabbing a Fetchland or stopping most triggered effects is not quite as powerful as a well-timed and sufficiently lucky Hymn. That said, results don't lie and obviously a Stifle list is capable of taking down a tournament.

[drocker23]

I was playing BRUG, i guess i'm going to resleeve BUG back.

This does not help your argument stifle is better than hymn though

1. Abrupt decay - makes no difference between stifle and hymn
2. deathrite - no difference. It may even help with stifle instead since you can tap out on your real lands and keep this sucker at bay.
3. No difference between stifle and hymn
4. same as above
5. same as above
6. we all love bombs. But no difference.
7. stifle helps with miracles A LOT
8. no difference, in fact, stifle is probably better since you wont help discard them.
9. same
10. same
11. RUG does have a slight edge with Pyroclasm.
12. I love them decays man.

I dont' see why BUG can't play stifle. There is no reason stifle is relegated to RUG. In fact the things you mentioned may be better with stifle than hymn. I've stifled a RIP before. Its pretty sweet.

This argument wasn't about Stifle vs. Hymn. it was about the reasons to not be playing Lightning Bolt.

[KobeBryan]

This argument wasn't about Stifle vs. Hymn. it was about the reasons to not be playing Lightning Bolt.

correct, but the stifle argument he presented was going towards playing RUG, which means to play bolt. In rug you do not play hymn. Then the counter argument was if you play stifle in bug, you cannot play hymn.

Hence, you need to consider the hymn factor when deciding to play RUG or BUG, or Stifle/hymn/bolt

[drocker23]

correct, but the stifle argument he presented was going towards playing RUG, which means to play bolt. In rug you do not play hymn. Then the counter argument was if you play stifle in bug, you cannot play hymn.

Hence, you need to consider the hymn factor when deciding to play RUG or BUG, or Stifle/hymn/bolt

Yes, I believe you are correct. When playing BUG I do feel like you need to decide whether to play Stifle or Hymn. However, whichever one you choose is going to change your mana base accordingly. When playing Stifle there is no need to play Bayou, and that's the entire reason why I don't bother playing Hymn in BUG.

1) I don't have to play Bayou which doesn't cast my blue spells or bounce for Daze.
2) Hymn doesn't impact the board when drawn. Stifle is marginally better at this.
3) With the increase of people running Wasteland again, it's nice to be able to protect our lands with Stifle from opposing Wastelands
4) Stifle pitches to Force of Will
5) Stifle still allows for free wins from time to time alongside Wasteland and Daze
6) I can also run less lands (18) as opposed to the hymn lists that want 19 or 20 lands in their lists.

So my personal testing and opinions lean more towards the stifle build than towards the hymn build.

[Esper3k]

Vs the D&T / Maverick decks, TNN is also problematic for them as the have very few ways to deal with it.

Vs Maverick, I also particularly like Virtue's Ruin since it deals with KoTR and they're less swarmy than D&T. You also have a better chance getting to more mana since you don't have to fight Port.

[Fallacy]

For those of you who have tested Tasigur, what is the consensus for sideboarding him vs Goyf in certain MU's? Tasigur relies on the GY to get INTO play, while Goyf relies on the GY to be effective while IN play. If you suspect RIP or some GY hate, is it best to sideout Tasigur because he might not make it to play? I am picking up 2 copies of Tasigur for MB, and I currently am trying 2 copies of VClique in the SB, so thinking ahead if I should just swap Tasigur for VClique in any match I suspect GY hate.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Expanding upon @Fallacy's suggestion, could the Tasigur testers also note the ratio of actually using Tasigur's ability to the number of times Tasigur is resolved. Is it 1 in 2? 1 in 4? 1 in 10? This might help with the Tasigur versus Tombstalker debate.

[FoolofaTook]

Instead of Tasigur why wouldn't you just put 2 Green Sun's Zenith in the build to function as Goyf and DRS 5 and 6 or to make a singleton Scavenging Ooze more likely to emerge when you needed him?

Tasigur doesn't look bad but he's not as good as Goyf and DRS 5 and 6 or having the ooze around for when you need him.

I'm not convinced you even need threats 13 and 14 in the build but if you do you'd be better off making them more flexible. Tasigur can be cast for just :b: but GSZ for :1::g: gets you a DRS and for :2::g: gets you a Goyf or an ooze.

[jim111589]

Ok, I asked this in the shardless thread and I will ask in this one as well. Has anyone put anymore thought into the counter/top engine in this deck? It seems like locking someone out of the game and beating them with goyf/drs/delver is a solid game plan.

[wcm8]

Instead of Tasigur why wouldn't you just put 2 Green Sun's Zenith in the build to function as Goyf and DRS 5 and 6 or to make a singleton Scavenging Ooze more likely to emerge when you needed him?

Tasigur doesn't look bad but he's not as good as Goyf and DRS 5 and 6 or having the ooze around for when you need him.

I'm not convinced you even need threats 13 and 14 in the build but if you do you'd be better off making them more flexible. Tasigur can be cast for just :b: but GSZ for :1::g: gets you a DRS and for :2::g: gets you a Goyf or an ooze.

First of all: a huge upside of Tasigur is dodging Abrupt Decay, as well as surviving a single Bolt. GSZ is fine, but the threat you'll get with it might not be so robust in the BGx matchups -- which will become fairly commonplace now with Treasure Cruise gone. Also, his ability *does* become relevant later on.

The reason a lot of BUG lists benefit from running 13-14 threats instead of just rolling with 12 is because none of them have Shroud and you ultimately need at least one to finish the game. RUG's Nimble Mongoose is a bit more resilient in some matchups. Additionally, RUG tends to run more copies of Spell Pierce, which often get used to protect their threats. UWR often runs even fewer threats, but often 2-3 of these are True-Name Nemesis, which again are fairly resilient. Both decks also have the advantage of running Burn, which can often finish off an opponent after their first few creatures have landed a few swings.

Tarmogoyf, Delver and DRS, despite their vulnerability to most removal, are still the most efficient and aggressively costed threats available to BUG. Sure, we could run Nimble Mongoose, but it has tension with DRS and we also don't typically fill the graveyard as quickly as RUG.

Thus, against a deck that packs a fair amount of removal, running only 12 creatures is often not quite enough to consistently close out the game in the right timeframe. The way BUG plays out is to deploy a threat, disrupt their hand/mana/counter relevant spells/kill their creatures, and race to the finish. This is made a lot easier if you don't have to spend a lot of your Ponders/Brainstorms searching for creatures, and instead are utilizing them to draw into the appropriate disruption.

[KobeBryan]

First of all: a huge upside of Tasigur is dodging Abrupt Decay, as well as surviving a single Bolt. GSZ is fine, but the threat you'll get with it might not be so robust in the BGx matchups -- which will become fairly commonplace now with Treasure Cruise gone. Also, his ability *does* become relevant later on.

The reason a lot of BUG lists benefit from running 13-14 threats instead of just rolling with 12 is because none of them have Shroud and you ultimately need at least one to finish the game. RUG's Nimble Mongoose is a bit more resilient in some matchups. Additionally, RUG tends to run more copies of Spell Pierce, which often get used to protect their threats. UWR often runs even fewer threats, but often 2-3 of these are True-Name Nemesis, which again are fairly resilient. Both decks also have the advantage of running Burn, which can often finish off an opponent after their first few creatures have landed a few swings.

Tarmogoyf, Delver and DRS, despite their vulnerability to most removal, are still the most efficient and aggressively costed threats available to BUG. Sure, we could run Nimble Mongoose, but it has tension with DRS and we also don't typically fill the graveyard as quickly as RUG.

Thus, against a deck that packs a fair amount of removal, running only 12 creatures is often not quite enough to consistently close out the game in the right timeframe. The way BUG plays out is to deploy a threat, disrupt their hand/mana/counter relevant spells/kill their creatures, and race to the finish. This is made a lot easier if you don't have to spend a lot of your Ponders/Brainstorms searching for creatures, and instead are utilizing them to draw into the appropriate disruption.

If that is the case, would you run stifle or the hymn build with tasiguar.

[wcm8]

If that is the case, would you run stifle or the hymn build with tasiguar.

Personally, I'd rather run Hymn as it seems to be more powerful going into the mid/late-game. But I don't think a Stifle build would mind having a 4/5 creature for B.

[FoolofaTook]

First of all: a huge upside of Tasigur is dodging Abrupt Decay, as well as surviving a single Bolt. GSZ is fine, but the threat you'll get with it might not be so robust in the BGx matchups -- which will become fairly commonplace now with Treasure Cruise gone. Also, his ability *does* become relevant later on.

The reason a lot of BUG lists benefit from running 13-14 threats instead of just rolling with 12 is because none of them have Shroud and you ultimately need at least one to finish the game. RUG's Nimble Mongoose is a bit more resilient in some matchups. Additionally, RUG tends to run more copies of Spell Pierce, which often get used to protect their threats. UWR often runs even fewer threats, but often 2-3 of these are True-Name Nemesis, which again are fairly resilient. Both decks also have the advantage of running Burn, which can often finish off an opponent after their first few creatures have landed a few swings.

Tarmogoyf, Delver and DRS, despite their vulnerability to most removal, are still the most efficient and aggressively costed threats available to BUG. Sure, we could run Nimble Mongoose, but it has tension with DRS and we also don't typically fill the graveyard as quickly as RUG.

Thus, against a deck that packs a fair amount of removal, running only 12 creatures is often not quite enough to consistently close out the game in the right timeframe. The way BUG plays out is to deploy a threat, disrupt their hand/mana/counter relevant spells/kill their creatures, and race to the finish. This is made a lot easier if you don't have to spend a lot of your Ponders/Brainstorms searching for creatures, and instead are utilizing them to draw into the appropriate disruption.

So then run 4 DRS, 3 Goyfs, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Nimble Mongoose and 2 GSZ. You've got your choice of options as to what to pull up with the GSZ and your additional threat does not shrink the GY for your other creatures the way Tasigur will.

I just don't see what's so special about a 4/5 without evasion for :b: in the overall game plan, particularly given that he's Legendary and you can't put two of him down to decide a match if that's what it comes too. The GSZ's still flip delver and they give you sideboard options against certain matchups that might be useful, such as Reclamation Sage against Batterskull and Dosan against Miracles.

[KobeBryan]

Personally, I'd rather run Hymn as it seems to be more powerful going into the mid/late-game. But I don't think a Stifle build would mind having a 4/5 creature for B.

Next question, how many times have you activated the ability?

The only games i see that it will last that long for the ability to matter would be against miracles. But this card is bad vs. miracles.

[FoolofaTook]

Next question, how many times have you activated the ability?

The only games i see that it will last that long for the ability to matter would be against miracles. But this card is bad vs. miracles.

It's also going to be bad against Submerge. Maybe it's actually going to be a plus card but it seems like there are a lot of different threats that would also be a plus card in the slots it will take up. That's why I'm thinking GSZ is a better option for the additional threats. It's more versatile and harder to hate against and it flips delver.

BUG Delver is already playing the two best standalone green creatures in the meta in DRS and Goyf. How could having 2 more ways to pull them up not be a good option if the alternative is a 4/5 beater without evasion?

[Sturtzilla]

I just don't see what's so special about a 4/5 without evasion for :b:...

You are kidding, right? This is what people said about Tarmogoyf a few years back. We all see how that went. A 4/5 Legendary Creature for :b: is arguably the most aggressively costed power/toughness to mana cost ratio in this game. I would like to point out that while I did not play in SCG Indy (I was judging) I did see a couple Tasigur, the Golden Fangs in the top tables in both BUG and Grixis decks. The resounding consensus was that he was a mid game 4/5 for :1::b: or :b:. Just some food for thought. If you think running 1-2 copies of a Delve :5: spell is a problem, then you clearly never played this deck with 3-4 Treasure Cruises or Dig Through Times... and if you weren't playing with these spells with higher Delve costs, how would you have any (let alone an educated/worthwhile) basis for comparison?

[btm10]

Ok, I asked this in the shardless thread and I will ask in this one as well. Has anyone put anymore thought into the counter/top engine in this deck? It seems like locking someone out of the game and beating them with goyf/drs/delver is a solid game plan.

Probably not. We really only run enough lands to cast our spells. Also, Sylvan Library is better than Top because it can generate real card advantage.


So then run 4 DRS, 3 Goyfs, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Nimble Mongoose and 2 GSZ. You've got your choice of options as to what to pull up with the GSZ and your additional threat does not shrink the GY for your other creatures the way Tasigur will.

I just don't see what's so special about a 4/5 without evasion for :b: in the overall game plan, particularly given that he's Legendary and you can't put two of him down to decide a match if that's what it comes too. The GSZ's still flip delver and they give you sideboard options against certain matchups that might be useful, such as Reclamation Sage against Batterskull and Dosan against Miracles.

If you want an extra threat that also flips Delver, why not run Unearth? It costs one instead of 2-3 and cycles if it's dead. It also gets back every creature other than Tasigur and Tombstalker, including TNN and Clique.

Reclamation Sage costs 3G to GSZ for, is always sorcery speed, doesn't have Split Second like Grip, and can't kill Planeswalkers or Creatures like Maelstrom Pulse. It doesn't even put an odd card type in the graveyard like Seal of Primordium.

[FoolofaTook]

If you want an extra threat that also flips Delver, why not run Unearth? It costs one instead of 2-3 and cycles if it's dead. It also gets back every creature other than Tasigur and Tombstalker, including TNN and Clique.

Because Unearth requires a creature in your graveyard, which in a meta infested by Swords to Plowshares and Terminus and GY hate after game 1 is no sure thing. GSZ will always find you a creature, and it will find you the creature you want, not the creature that happens to be in your GY.


Reclamation Sage costs 3G to GSZ for, is always sorcery speed, doesn't have Split Second like Grip, and can't kill Planeswalkers or Creatures like Maelstrom Pulse. It doesn't even put an odd card type in the graveyard like Seal of Primordium.

However it is both an answer and a damage source. Which none of your solutions are. And nothing says you can't run pulse in the sideboard with it also. I wouldn't main list Reclamation Sage, I'm just saying that once you are running a couple of GSZ it's a decent sideboard option.

BTW, GSZ is even better in the tapout version than it is in the Stifle version. Turn 2 Hymn followed by turn 3 Liliana or Goyf is really nasty and with 2 more ways to get Goyf up on turn 3 you're getting to the point that one or the other is virtually certain.

[wcm8]

If you want an extra threat that also flips Delver, why not run Unearth?

In some old Team America lists (back in the 4x Sinkhole, 4x Tombstalker days, with Snuff Out as removal), the deck sometimes ran 1 copy of Reanimate as a pseudo-threat and additional hate against some graveyard-centric decks. This was usually in the sideboard.

I think Unearth and Reanimate would be better in some sort of Snapcaster Mage midrange build, as the current iteration of BUG Delver wants to minimize the number of situationally dead cards. I think it's probably bad to become even more susceptible to Rest in Peace, plus I see plenty of White decks in my local metagame. StP obviously makes reanimation cards even worse.

All of this recent discussion seems to be mostly just conjecture -- if you want to test a Green Sun's Zenith build, go for it! I encourage you to do so and find your own conclusions. I've tested it before, and it's fairly solid in the maindeck and can open up various sideboard options.

I have definitely been very happy with Tasigur, as a 4/5 creature for B slots well into this deck's overall plan of efficient threats backed up by disruption. The activated ability is just icing on top that can occasionally give you inevitability if the game goes long.

Simply put, this deck can be successful as long as you're sticking with about 48~ of the main cards... Regardless of whether or not you go with Hymn or Stifle (and in some metagames, even Sinkhole is savage, as is Spell Pierce), how much and what kind of removal you run, whether you roll with 12 creatures or more, and whether those creatures are any among many solid options: True-Name Nemesis, Tasigur, Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique, Tombstalker, Baleful Strix, GSZ, etc. Hell, even fringe stuff like Kitchen Finks, Terravore or Courser of Kruphix could be really great in the right circumstance.

One thing I would definitely encourage people to run is the singleton Sylvan Library, or at least definitely if you're not running Dark Confiant (though even with Bob it's great, perhaps even better). This card more than any other seems to be the key to winning the UWr Miracles matchup.

[FoolofaTook]

Terravore is one option I was thinking of as a 1-of for the trample. It's not better than Goyf though and including it seems like a weaker option except in specific metas. It would take the Scavenging ooze slot which I think is also a weaker choice.

I was thinking 4x Delver of Secrets, 4x Deathrite Shaman, 3x-4x Tarmogoyf, 0x-1x Scavenging Ooze, 2x Green Sun's Zenith and 2x Liliana of the Veil as the "dudes". You can do that and still have 26 spells that flip Delver and 20 blue spells for FoW and 20 lands. Then you have 1x Dosan, the Falling Leaf and 1x Reclamation Sage in the SB for specific high end matchups. Dosan for Miracles and Reclamation Sage for the inevitable blade matchups. Pull Ooze against Miracles for Dosan and something else against blade for Reclamation Sage and then do your normal jimmying around with the instants/sorceries depending on how your SB is constructed.

I was looking hard at Tasigur as Goyf 5 and 5 when I realized what I really wanted was more Goyfs, not slightly worse Goyfs. Then putting 2 GSZ in made me realize that 3 Goyfs and a Scavenging Ooze was a bit more flexible and with 2 GSZ very doable.

[sdematt]

I don't usually post in this thread since it's not my expertise, but if you're not running AT LEAST the Sylvan Library as a singleton in the maindeck, you're stone retarded. That is all.

-Matt

[Manipulato]

Hi all,

I´m currently testing the following list. I want to have a good game against Elves, DnT & Miracles becaue I think thats one of the more difficult MU´s and they are played heavily in my meta. After playing the whole time with the standard Hymn, Lili, 20 lands build pre TC I want to give the stifle build a chance because I think it´s good positioned right now like the current results show us. I really like DS + Stifle and think it´s one of the advantages this deck has over Stifle in RUG.

13 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 True-Name Nemesis

29 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure

18 Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15 Cards
3 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
2 Dread of Night
2 Grafdigger`s Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library

I really like the 1/1 split between Sylvan Library MD/SB, it`s just nuts against Miracles and very good in different midrange/grindy MU´s.
The Stifle package is also very useful against Miracles & DnT, especially against DnT it´s important to save our lands against Wasteland + the deck has so much triggered abilitys (SFM, equipment, Vial, Mother, Flickerwhisp, RIP etc.).

I think Tasigur is worth testing and good in this deck as Goyf #5/6 but in my meta we have a lot of DnT and some blade decks where a singleton Karakas, so he`s to fragile for that.

The 2 Dread of night are a bit iffy but the DnT MU was just very hard in the past if your up against a good player, so I´m sick losing to it...The TNN´s also help against both Miracles & Dnt.

For the moment I´m very confidant with the list but my next turney will show it...

Greetings

[wcm8]

^^ That is a good list, because many of the choices have been based on your local expectations.

One thing that would definitely help against DnT though would be adding a Land (or two). I find that many games against them are lost simply due to them killing our DRS and then cutting off mana via Waste + Port + Thalia.

To make room, you could consider cutting 1 of any of the following: Spell Pierce, Abrupt Decay, Disfigure, Daze, FoW (especially weak against DnT for the most part), Stifle. I think 18 lands is greedy for this deck, DRS or not.

[Manipulato]

^^ That is a good list, because many of the choices have been based on your local expectations.

One thing that would definitely help against DnT though would be adding a Land (or two). I find that many games against them are lost simply due to them killing our DRS and then cutting off mana via Waste + Port + Thalia.

To make room, you could consider cutting 1 of any of the following: Spell Pierce, Abrupt Decay, Disfigure, Daze, FoW (especially weak against DnT for the most part), Stifle. I think 18 lands is greedy for this deck, DRS or not.

That DnT attacks our manabase is right but adding a additional land would be good sometimes but in this special list I would never add a 19th or 20th land because it would be just too much, especially against Miracles or Elves or whatever. In a standard Hymn/Lili version your absolutley right with 20 lands.

Easy said it´s RUG Delver just with DS...The only really more expensive card is Abrupt Decay (where RUG has Lightning Bolt), but with 4 additional manaproducers & 4 Stifle to protect our lands I think it´s absolutley ok running 18...

[Fallacy]

Hi all,

I´m currently testing the following list. I want to have a good game against Elves, DnT & Miracles becaue I think thats one of the more difficult MU´s and they are played heavily in my meta. After playing the whole time with the standard Hymn, Lili, 20 lands build pre TC I want to give the stifle build a chance because I think it´s good positioned right now like the current results show us. I really like DS + Stifle and think it´s one of the advantages this deck has over Stifle in RUG.

13 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 True-Name Nemesis

29 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure

18 Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15 Cards
3 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
2 Dread of Night
2 Grafdigger`s Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library

I really like the 1/1 split between Sylvan Library MD/SB, it`s just nuts against Miracles and very good in different midrange/grindy MU´s.
The Stifle package is also very useful against Miracles & DnT, especially against DnT it´s important to save our lands against Wasteland + the deck has so much triggered abilitys (SFM, equipment, Vial, Mother, Flickerwhisp, RIP etc.).

I think Tasigur is worth testing and good in this deck as Goyf #5/6 but in my meta we have a lot of DnT and some blade decks where a singleton Karakas, so he`s to fragile for that.

The 2 Dread of night are a bit iffy but the DnT MU was just very hard in the past if your up against a good player, so I´m sick losing to it...The TNN´s also help against both Miracles & Dnt.

For the moment I´m very confidant with the list but my next turney will show it...

Greetings

I have two TA builds, and coincidentally that is my Stifle build (except SB is slightly different). I'll get in some play testing this weekend against Maverick, comparing that list to a Hymn build which has 2 Tasigur (roughly same list as Noah Cohen's recent, see SCG Open Indy).

[KobeBryan]

That DnT attacks our manabase is right but adding a additional land would be good sometimes but in this special list I would never add a 19th or 20th land because it would be just too much, especially against Miracles or Elves or whatever. In a standard Hymn/Lili version your absolutley right with 20 lands.

Easy said it´s RUG Delver just with DS...The only really more expensive card is Abrupt Decay (where RUG has Lightning Bolt), but with 4 additional manaproducers & 4 Stifle to protect our lands I think it´s absolutley ok running 18...

I think the elves and DNT matches are bad enough where we should just hope for luck instead of wasting delicate and tight sideboard slots to fight these two decks. We should use our board to ensure victory against the other decks, miracles, rug, and such.

Unless you dedicate like 8 cards to the DNT and elves matchup, its not going to really be in our favor.

[sauce]

I play 2 Golgari charms 2 Disfigure and 1 Darkblast in my SB and find it makes the matchups at least 50/50 if not better in our favor post board.

[FoolofaTook]

The D&T matchup is never good under any circumstances. They have 22-24 creatures, no need to load the board up with them to win and a prison element that really messes with our ability to cast spells. Elves isn't good either but D&T is a 70/30 loss.

[KobeBryan]

I play 2 Golgari charms 2 Disfigure and 1 Darkblast in my SB and find it makes the matchups at least 50/50 if not better in our favor post board.

I don't believe this.

[KobeBryan]

The D&T matchup is never good under any circumstances. They have 22-24 creatures, no need to load the board up with them to win and a prison element that really messes with our ability to cast spells. Elves isn't good either but D&T is a 70/30 loss.

Thats what i'm saying. We should just roll the dice against these two matches and focus on beating the ones that are really at 50/50

[Manipulato]

Thats what i'm saying. We should just roll the dice against these two matches and focus on beating the ones that are really at 50/50

Sorry but I dont agree here with you both. I have "only " 2 cards which are only for 1 MU (2 Dread of Night ) every other card is good in more than one MU. In my opinion these are the worst common played MU'S so I will prepare my deck for it because I think that other decks like RUG, Combo, blade are quite good and I don't want to "get lucky and roll a dice". If there were only 1 deck which were bad MU and it were not that heavily played, then I'm fine with the "get lucky strategy" but those decks are so common played in my meta that I can't go with that. How I said above it's just 2 slots filled with iffy stuff but it improves the MU immense.
It's not like the SB is bad against other decks. ...Sylvan, TNN , Grip Charm, Needle effects are just good cards...

[KobeBryan]

Sorry but I dont agree here with you both. I have "only " 2 cards which are only for 1 MU (2 Dread of Night ) every other card is good in more than one MU. In my opinion these are the worst common played MU'S so I will prepare my deck for it because I think that other decks like RUG, Combo, blade are quite good and I don't want to "get lucky and roll a dice". If there were only 1 deck which were bad MU and it were not that heavily played, then I'm fine with the "get lucky strategy" but those decks are so common played in my meta that I can't go with that. How I said above it's just 2 slots filled with iffy stuff but it improves the MU immense.
It's not like the SB is bad against other decks. ...Sylvan, TNN , Grip Charm, Needle effects are just good cards...

I don't know man.

you have 1 needle, 1 grip, 2 golgari charm, 1 tnn, 2 dread of night, 2 sylvan, and 2 disfigure against their host of 22-24 creatures with locks.

You're resources will be expended REALLY fast. I don't think you will get this matchup over 50 regardless of all the cards you put in.

If your meta is filled with DNT and elves, i think you should change the deck up to combo. Thats why people meta decks man. No one played reanimator while TC was dominating. Now that TC is gone, less gy cards in the sb, you will see more gy strategies.

[Manipulato]

I don't know man.

you have 1 needle, 1 grip, 2 golgari charm, 1 tnn, 2 dread of night, 2 sylvan, and 2 disfigure against their host of 22-24 creatures with locks.

You're resources will be expended REALLY fast. I don't think you will get this matchup over 50 regardless of all the cards you put in.

If your meta is filled with DNT and elves, i think you should change the deck up to combo. Thats why people meta decks man. No one played reanimator while TC was dominating. Now that TC is gone, less gy cards in the sb, you will see more gy strategies.

If I improved it from 30-70 to 50/50 I'm happy with that.
Dread kills every Thalia, Mother, Flickerwisp, Mangara, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Aven Mindsencor and it brings serra Avenger in Disfigure reach + it brings Mirran Crusader & SFM in Charm range, must be good I think :wink:

I will not switch to combo because it does not fit my play style and I really have no fun with such decks. I play Deathblade too which is better suited with more TNN'S and Jitte but I love BUG and want play it again.

I will test it and we will see how everything worked out.

[FoolofaTook]

The reasonable sideboard options for D&T are all the ones that you can also use against Elves. Dread of Night is good against D&T but it is good against nobody else, not even Maverick. Putting 2 in your SB to try to make the matchup 50/50 isn't going to get you to 50/50 and it is two fewer cards that you will have against everybody else. I would put Massacre in my SB before I put DoN in. I actually have 2 Golgari Charms, 1 Toxic Deluge and 2 Disfigure and against D&T that's not enough. Against Elves it sometimes gets me by.

[jim111589]

Is E. Plague worth concidering if you want tech for DnT and elves? Or is it to slow for both?

[iostream]

I don't usually post in this thread since it's not my expertise, but if you're not running AT LEAST the Sylvan Library as a singleton in the maindeck, you're stone retarded. That is all.

-MattThe winning list and the 15th place list from Indianapolis did not run any Sylvan Library.

[KobeBryan]

The winning list and the 15th place list from Indianapolis did not run any Sylvan Library.

he had 3 bobs to compensate

[Manipulato]

The reasonable sideboard options for D&T are all the ones that you can also use against Elves. Dread of Night is good against D&T but it is good against nobody else, not even Maverick. Putting 2 in your SB to try to make the matchup 50/50 isn't going to get you to 50/50 and it is two fewer cards that you will have against everybody else. I would put Massacre in my SB before I put DoN in. I actually have 2 Golgari Charms, 1 Toxic Deluge and 2 Disfigure and against D&T that's not enough. Against Elves it sometimes gets me by.

I would never add Massacre to my SB! Playing it for free and shutting down SFM or Crusader is nice but killing our own Delver, Shaman & TNN are not the way to go...By the way, same for Toxic Deluge...Its too expensive and kills our own x/2 creatures, if we want to kill x/1s Charm is waaay better.

The one point where DoN is definitly more powerful than any other alternativ is that its permanent hate which will stay the whole game and will shut down every single x/1 they´re drawing...

But I think it´s enough said about the topic, I will test it and we will see.

Greetings

[FoolofaTook]

Is E. Plague worth concidering if you want tech for DnT and elves? Or is it to slow for both?

Engineered Plague can work against Elves because your Deathrite Shamans live to give you turn 2 acceleration to put it into play. It doesn't work well against D&T for many reasons, the biggest of which is that they will not let you cast it reliably between Swords to Plowshares and the prison effects. Second to that is the lack of homogeneity in their creatures. It's hard to name a creature type that they can't work through.

[sdematt]

he had 3 bobs to compensate

Basically what I was going to say.

Also, Dread of Night comes in old border Korean goodness, and doesn't affect this deck at all and shuts down an unfavourable matchup. Along with Charm, l like them.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

I did about 30 games with Tasugir on cockatrice (Take it for what its worth)

Pros

1. He comes out blazing fast. Turn 3 is probably the soonest and most realistic.
2. He hardly gets removed since people usually use all their removal against DRS and delver.
3. He doesn't really cannibalize goyf or DRS. You usually have enough fuel to run all three of these cards.
4. I used his ability and most of the time i usually get a blue card or thoughtseize. I used that card to force a card in response to casting.

Cons
1. He gets chumped A LOT
2. I got bounced maybe like 5 times against death and taxes. Not really prevalent on being bounced. You have stifle, wasteland to stop it.
3. His ability is lack luster. I usually get useless cards back, a daze, a dead spell pierce, a thoughtseize, or a stifle. Nothing too important ever. I understand that you can brainstorm in response to the activation to dump the crap, but you don't have enough mana for that
4. I had two stuck in my hand before and can't do nothing because of the legend rule.
5. He's just an undercosted 1 drop that swings for 4/5. Gets chumped by TNN, no trample. I think tombstalker or maybe hooting may be more efficient.

[jim111589]

Engineered Plague can work against Elves because your Deathrite Shamans live to give you turn 2 acceleration to put it into play. It doesn't work well against D&T for many reasons, the biggest of which is that they will not let you cast it reliably between Swords to Plowshares and the prison effects. Second to that is the lack of homogeneity in their creatures. It's hard to name a creature type that they can't work through.

Wouldn't naming human solve most problems? With that out; mom, magnara and thalia are dead cards to them. It does kill our unflipped delvers and bobs, if you play them, but it does seem to be worth the sacrifice to blank some of their best cards.

[kryllex]

Completely stupid, but i randomly played a 1-off Gurmag Angler in a few test rounds. Damn, it was fun to faceroll people with a freaking ZOMBIE FISH! I mean... a.. zombie....fish.... eh, wat? :confused:

Funnywise, i think he's better then Tasigur. Yeah, 1 more to delve, but.. hes a 5/5, so he kills most Goyfs, hes not Legendary, so he can't be bounced. And he is a freaking ZOMBIE FISH. :laugh::cool:
Well, ok, jokes aside, ill jam a library back in that spot.
But, to keep the delve hype up, im testing a Murderous Cut in the Sidebopard atm. It seems fairly good.

[KobeBryan]

Completely stupid, but i randomly played a 1-off Gurmag Angler in a few test rounds. Damn, it was fun to faceroll people with a freaking ZOMBIE FISH! I mean... a.. zombie....fish.... eh, wat? :confused:

Funnywise, i think he's better then Tasigur. Yeah, 1 more to delve, but.. hes a 5/5, so he kills most Goyfs, hes not Legendary, so he can't be bounced. And he is a freaking ZOMBIE FISH. :laugh::cool:
Well, ok, jokes aside, ill jam a library back in that spot.
But, to keep the delve hype up, im testing a Murderous Cut in the Sidebopard atm. It seems fairly good.

Legendary really isn't a problem for tasigur

[Manipulato]

I did about 30 games with Tasugir on cockatrice (Take it for what its worth)

Pros

1. He comes out blazing fast. Turn 3 is probably the soonest and most realistic.
2. He hardly gets removed since people usually use all their removal against DRS and delver.
3. He doesn't really cannibalize goyf or DRS. You usually have enough fuel to run all three of these cards.
4. I used his ability and most of the time i usually get a blue card or thoughtseize. I used that card to force a card in response to casting.

Cons
1. He gets chumped A LOT
2. I got bounced maybe like 5 times against death and taxes. Not really prevalent on being bounced. You have stifle, wasteland to stop it.
3. His ability is lack luster. I usually get useless cards back, a daze, a dead spell pierce, a thoughtseize, or a stifle. Nothing too important ever. I understand that you can brainstorm in response to the activation to dump the crap, but you don't have enough mana for that
4. I had two stuck in my hand before and can't do nothing because of the legend rule.
5. He's just an undercosted 1 drop that swings for 4/5. Gets chumped by TNN, no trample. I think tombstalker or maybe hooting may be more efficient.

About cons point 3.
I had the same testing results about the ability...Even if if delved away cards like Daze, Stifle, FoW I "dredged" evertime another low impact card in the grave, so that I got back a Stifle, FoW, Pierce, Daze to my hand...The 4 mana was not that problem because with Shamans you get there in the Mid-/Lategame but tempo decks have just so many low impact cards, thats the problem. I think in Modern or BUG Midrange/Control he´s super awesome but in a classic BUG Delver he´s just ok...

About cons point 5.
Still not bad but I really like Hooting Mandrills in that spot because Trample is kind of evasion, especially if your play against DnT, Elves, TNN decks.
Stalker is in a Hymn list better in my opinion but in a stifle version is bb to fragile.

Greetings

[FoolofaTook]

Wouldn't naming human solve most problems? With that out; mom, magnara and thalia are dead cards to them. It does kill our unflipped delvers and bobs, if you play them, but it does seem to be worth the sacrifice to blank some of their best cards.

Most D&T builds don't play Mangara. The creatures you see all the time at 4x are Mother of Runes (Human Cleric), Thalia (Human Soldier), Stoneforge Mystic (Kor Artificer), Phyrexian Revoker (Horror) and often Flickerwisp (Elemental). Then you have a couple of Serra Avenger (Angel), a couple of Mirran Crusader (Human Knight) and a couple of Brimaz (Cat Soldier). The best move is to name human but it keeps large parts of their plan intact so it doesn't cripple them the way it does Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, etc.

It would still be a usable solution against D&T if you could cast it reliably but you just can't. Getting to 3 mana usable to cast anything but an instant during your upkeep is very tough early in the game.

[drocker23]

Hi all,

I´m currently testing the following list.

13 Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 True-Name Nemesis

29 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure

18 Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15 Cards
3 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
2 Dread of Night
2 Grafdigger`s Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library


Greetings

Changes I'm considering to the list:
-1 Stifle -1 Force of Will
+1 Underground Sea +1 ???
Through some of the testing I've done lately, I'm starting to think that 18 lands is a tad too greedy in this deck. Especially with 2 disfigures now maindeck and a possible additional threat that is black, I think the deck really wants the 4th underground sea as the 19th land. I've never tried maindeck sylvan library but it seems fine as a one of to help filter our draws more and hopefully prevent flooding. I think 3 stifles are plenty. I don't feel it necessary to play the full 4. I'm not even sure if the deck wants the 4th force of will main either. Perhaps a 1/1 split of true-name nemesis and tasigur would be preferable as threats 13 and 14? I'm not totally sure what I want as my 60th card: Tasigur as threat #14 or 1 more card that will flip Delver whether it be Force of Will #4, Spell Pierce #3, or some other spicy instant/sorcery I may have not thought of yet.
No comment on the sideboard as my sideboard is pretty different from the one posted.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Your list is solid, but for that 60th card I would try DTT or a great creature for this slot is Trygon Predator, or you could do a Jitte.

[Plague Sliver]

I would add either the 3rd Spell Pierce or the 2nd TNN here.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm going to backtrack on Dread of Night. It is a very narrow card but enough people are playing Death and Taxes at this point that if the matchup is close to an auto-lose for you then putting a couple of DoN in your sideboard is not a bad move.

The matchups that really need fixing or are essentially unfixable are UWR DelverBlade, Combo Elves, Death and Taxes, MUD and Sylvan Plug. You can actually play your base list against just about everybody else and still have a decent matchup game 2 and 3, maybe with replacements for a few Daze when you are on the draw. So if D&T is causing major problems for you in your meta a couple of slots devoted to it isn't such a bad thing.

[wcm8]

The matchups that really need fixing or are essentially unfixable are

UWR DelverBlade,
Combo Elves,
Death and Taxes,
MUD
and Sylvan Plug.

Any deck running Swords to Plowshares is going to be easier to beat if you run 1-2 Sylvan Library. One copy should be in your maindeck, and I definitely recommend a second copy in the SB if you have enough people running White in your local metagame.

Against UWR Delver, bring in Golgari Charm to answer their TNNs, unflipped Delvers, Monastery Mentor tokens (assuming they can't pump in response), destroy their Rest in Peace if they run it, and ALSO it can regenerate your dudes if they get killed in combat or Lighting Bolted.

I am a big advocate of running at least 1 copy of Null Rod, and sometimes even 2 copies is correct. This card deals with equipment and all sort of problematic artifacts. It's also funny to have an auto-win against Affinity if you draw it early enough. Obviously bring this in against UWR Delver (for their SFM) and also DnT (again, SFM as well as shutting off Aether Vial and other stuff they might potentially have such as Relic of Progenitus, Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb).

Dread of Night I feel deserves at least 1 slot in BUG sideboards to deal with Mother of Runes, Thalia, Flickerwhisp, Lingering Souls, Monastery Mentor tokens, and whatever other White X/1 dudes you can think of. It also brings stuff like Serra Avenger into Disfigure range, and X/2 guys can then succumb to Golgari Charm. If you see enough of these decks, 2-3 copies is a legit option to consider even though it's technically somewhat narrow. I *wish* they had printed one that affected Green creatures too, then we would have a solid SB tech against Elves as well.

Elves is dealt with via your targeted removal (Decay, Disfigure, Dismember, etc.), Grafdigger's Cage (to shut down GSZ and Natural Order), and Golgari Charm and other sweeper spells (e.g. Marsh Casualties, Toxic Deluge, Massacre) to clear the field. Don't discount the possibility of running Darkblast, this card is quite powerful in the right matchup and if drawn earlier enough it gives Elves a lot of problems. Submerge can also be quite the blow-out against any deck with Forests.

As for MUD, you hopefully have some Null Rods, and also have some number of Maelstrom Pulse, Krosan Grip. Liliana of the Veil is particularly good here if you can cut them off enough mana to deploy their bombs, as is Hymn to Tourach. You *must* kill Metalworker before he can ramp them into 8+~ mana, otherwise you just lose to a bunch of obnoxious robots. Also, they are probably running Chalice of the Void -- depending on the circumstance, you can often ignore this on 1 for a few turns until you get an Abrupt Decay, but if your hand is full of 1-drops you NEED to counter it. BUG Delver has a slightly easier time beating MUD compared to other Delver decks. Sometimes though they are just going to have a nuts opener like T1 Chalice, T2 Trinisphere, T3 Golem or whatever. That's just variance. They are sometimes just as likely to mulligan down to 5, get their first Sol land Wasted, and then have a grip of useless junk they can't even cast. Stompy decks in general are fairly inconsistent.

Sylvan plug is not a deck I've faced very often, but just looking at the list it looks like something that's been designed to beat Ux tempo/control decks. This might be one of those next-to-hopeless matchups, so you might just wanna hope to dodge this deck entirely in the swiss rounds and/or just get lucky with a double Hymn type of hand. I can't think of anything offhand that would cripple their strategy at the moment.

[FoolofaTook]

Sylvan plug is not a deck I've faced very often, but just looking at the list it looks like something that's been designed to beat Ux tempo/control decks. This might be one of those next-to-hopeless matchups, so you might just wanna hope to dodge this deck entirely in the swiss rounds and/or just get lucky with a double Hymn type of hand. I can't think of anything offhand that would cripple their strategy at the moment.

You can find streams of people playing Sylvan Plug in dailies on MODO. It's really beyond brutal against lists playing Islands. I'm thinking the only way to beat it is to play the full Team America with double Bayous, Liliana, Hymns, Tombstalker, etc. Even then I don't think it's going to be an ok matchup. It's basically designed to say FU to blue and it does it very well.

[KobeBryan]

You can find streams of people playing Sylvan Plug in dailies on MODO. It's really beyond brutal against lists playing Islands. I'm thinking the only way to beat it is to play the full Team America with double Bayous, Liliana, Hymns, Tombstalker, etc. Even then I don't think it's going to be an ok matchup. It's basically designed to say FU to blue and it does it very well.

what do you expect with 4 main deck chokes

[FoolofaTook]

what do you expect with 4 main deck chokes

Chokes aren't at 4x most of the time. The entire list is hostile to blue. Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay, Wasteland, etc. It's just an ugly thing to deal with. Countering one thing just chooses what will kill you.

[btm10]

You can find streams of people playing Sylvan Plug in dailies on MODO. It's really beyond brutal against lists playing Islands. I'm thinking the only way to beat it is to play the full Team America with double Bayous, Liliana, Hymns, Tombstalker, etc. Even then I don't think it's going to be an ok matchup. It's basically designed to say FU to blue and it does it very well.

It's a hate deck like Painter or Dragon Stompy. I'm fine writing this one off since I don't play on MODO.


Any deck running Swords to Plowshares is going to be easier to beat if you run 1-2 Sylvan Library. One copy should be in your maindeck, and I definitely recommend a second copy in the SB if you have enough people running White in your local metagame.

Against UWR Delver, bring in Golgari Charm to answer their TNNs, unflipped Delvers, Monastery Mentor tokens (assuming they can't pump in response), destroy their Rest in Peace if they run it, and ALSO it can regenerate your dudes if they get killed in combat or Lighting Bolted.

This. Even granting that UWR whatever isn't as favorable as RUG (or even Miracles) I don't usually find the matchup to be any worse than even. Sometimes they get to suit up a TNN and just win, sometimes they have MD Sword of Feast and Famine to make any of their guys a major issue, but it's not like we're without answers. I can see it being harder if you aren't running the Hymn/Thoughtseize + Liliana build though.



I am a big advocate of running at least 1 copy of Null Rod, and sometimes even 2 copies is correct. This card deals with equipment and all sort of problematic artifacts. It's also funny to have an auto-win against Affinity if you draw it early enough. Obviously bring this in against UWR Delver (for their SFM) and also DnT (again, SFM as well as shutting off Aether Vial and other stuff they might potentially have such as Relic of Progenitus, Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb).
...

As for MUD, you hopefully have some Null Rods, and also have some number of Maelstrom Pulse, Krosan Grip. Liliana of the Veil is particularly good here if you can cut them off enough mana to deploy their bombs, as is Hymn to Tourach. You *must* kill Metalworker before he can ramp them into 8+~ mana, otherwise you just lose to a bunch of obnoxious robots. Also, they are probably running Chalice of the Void -- depending on the circumstance, you can often ignore this on 1 for a few turns until you get an Abrupt Decay, but if your hand is full of 1-drops you NEED to counter it. BUG Delver has a slightly easier time beating MUD compared to other Delver decks. Sometimes though they are just going to have a nuts opener like T1 Chalice, T2 Trinisphere, T3 Golem or whatever. That's just variance. They are sometimes just as likely to mulligan down to 5, get their first Sol land Wasted, and then have a grip of useless junk they can't even cast. Stompy decks in general are fairly inconsistent.


Speaking of matchup differences between the discard and Stifle builds, MUD is another matchup that I've found very difficult with Stifles but quite good with Hymn, Liliana, and Thoughtseize. Sometimes they go turn 1 Trinisphere, turn 2 Metalworker and you just lose, but the widespread adoption of the 12Post manabase has given them more openings that don't do anything on turn 1 and are highly vulnerable to Wasteland. On top of that, there's basically no deck (other than Storm) that's hit harder by Hymn. Also, everything else you said, wcm.

[Manipulato]

I dont even think MUD is a bad MU, I had only experience with the Hymn, Lili list but I had good results against them, like most Delver Tempo decks the mixture between Wasteland, Daze, Pierce, FoW, AD + a fast clock just kills them. Sure they can sometimes nuts you if you have no FoW, Daze, AD or whatever in hand but that´s probably a mulligan though.

UWR Delver is not a unfavourable MU too, it not the most easy one because they have a lot of one mana creature removal and some spicy RIP in the board but we have all the tools to defeat them, Hymn/TS is good against they´re SFM -> Equipment (Same for the Stifle version), TNN can be handled by Lili and Golgari Charm and we have him too in the deck, AD handles just everything exept TNN + we have a more solid clock than them, a Grip from the board also shuts down Batterskull. The Stifle version can also get ugly for they´re manabase because it´s just great against them, stifling RIP, SFM, Equipment trigger/the equip itself, fetches, Wastelands etc...Sylvan Library gives us back the gas which we can loose to Swords/Bolts.
I would say it´s even to slightly favourable

Sylvan Plug is not a meta factor for me because in real life it´s not really much played (Never faced it once!). But I agree that it´s a bad MU like most "BG I destroy everything you play and have a lot of bombs in my deck" -> Nic Fit.

[drocker23]

I have seen a few lists here recently that are playing Tasigur alongside Dig Through Time. Can someone explain the reasoning behind playing dig through time in a deck with deathrite shaman and tarmogoyf? Is there also some interaction between Dig Through Time and Tasigur I may be unaware of?

[Manipulato]

I have seen a few lists here recently that are playing Tasigur alongside Dig Through Time. Can someone explain the reasoning behind playing dig through time in a deck with deathrite shaman and tarmogoyf? Is there also some interaction between Dig Through Time and Tasigur I may be unaware of?

A single copy of DTT + Tasigur doesnt hurt Goyf or Shaman in any way...I mean during the TC meta we could support 3-4 TC in the same deck and this with the fact in mind that TC delved for 7 and not for 5-6...Tombstalker were played in that slots for a very long time and was part of the "standard" list too.

Tasigur can threw new cards to the GY with his ability and delves "only" for 5...
DTT searches for more gas/good stuff which refills the GY.

The oponent has a GY too and both creatures life/take advantage from this...

A 2:2 split between Tasigur & DTT would be to much for sure, but a 1:1 split or 2 of a kind is absolutley supportable.

[KobeBryan]

I would like to add on hooting mandrils.

This guy tried to double block with 1/2 and a 3/4, trying to kill my hooting. I selected the 1/2 and trampled over for the kill.

This is one of the benefits of hooting, which i'm finding is superior than tasigur

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

This guy tried to double block with 1/2 and a 3/4, trying to kill my hooting. I selected the 1/2 and trampled over for the kill.


Say what now?

[btm10]

I would like to add on hooting mandrils.

This guy tried to double block with 1/2 and a 3/4, trying to kill my hooting. I selected the 1/2 and trampled over for the kill.

This is one of the benefits of hooting, which i'm finding is superior than tasigur

That's not how Trample works. You have to assign damage equal to the total toughness of all blockers and then any remaining damage can be assigned to the player.

[KobeBryan]

That's not how Trample works. You have to assign damage equal to the total toughness of all blockers and then any remaining damage can be assigned to the player.

really...when did it change.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

702.17b The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures thats being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage thats actually dealt. The attacking creatures controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case cant assign any damage to the player or planeswalker its attacking.

[KobeBryan]

702.17b The controller of an attacking creature with trample first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures thats being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage thats actually dealt. The attacking creatures controller need not assign lethal damage to all those blocking creatures but in that case cant assign any damage to the player or planeswalker its attacking.

Did i play this rule wrong all these years?

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Ooops :-)

(Just don't let your past opponents see this!)

[Manipulato]

Did i play this rule wrong all these years?

:laugh: Genius! Did you play against newbs only :tongue: Just kidding

[jake556]

I have been running Jim Davis's list on MODO. Bob does what he does and has been amazing! @_@ The only issue I have found is running 3 more critters definitely flips delver less :/ And has been REALLY noticeable. Most games the card advantage you get still wins the game, but it feels like your more of a swarm deck attacking with Bob, 1/1 Delvers etc... I'll keep trying it out and see how it goes.

[KobeBryan]

:laugh: Genius! Did you play against newbs only :tongue: Just kidding

sue me...i haven't played a trample creature since force of nature

[Islandswamp]

I have been running Jim Davis's list on MODO. Bob does what he does and has been amazing! @_@ The only issue I have found is running 3 more critters definitely flips delver less :/ And has been REALLY noticeable. Most games the card advantage you get still wins the game, but it feels like your more of a swarm deck attacking with Bob, 1/1 Delvers etc... I'll keep trying it out and see how it goes.

I'm almost done putting that list together. it's my first crack at playing team america. Even with a slightly different list, I've loved it. The Dark Confidant has been awesome. I have also run into issues with seeing three creatures in a row while trying to flip my Delver. It kind of sucks, but I've had a great time otherwise. I play on magic online as well, but I haven't found time for a Daily yet.

[Griselpuff]

Went 3-1 streaming last night's Daily with Dig BUG:

1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tombstalker

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Dig Through Time
1 Disfigure
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Krosan Grip
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

The manabase was bad as I needed BBUU, so basically needed all three duals to cast my spells. There were a couple times I was given the opportunity to cast Dig or Tombstalker and I always chose Tombstalker.

IMO, there are two diverging strong ways to build TA:

1) With double black spells (Hymn+Stalker+Lili)
2) With double blue spells (Dig + TNN + Clique)

I like Hymn more against other Delver/midrange/combo decks and I like the Bob/Stifle version more against Miracles. My plan is to rely more on the SB for the match-ups where Hymn is mediocre. Overall, I still think it's worth it to play Hymn right now, but I don't think there's a good way to pair it with Dig.

Btw, the match-ups I feel unfavored with Hymn BUG in order are Elves, Miracles and D&T. Everything else I feel at least 50/50 against (including Red Lands, Painter and Burn).

[drocker23]

i'm gonna try 2 dig through time and 1 tasigur in my list....

at least the extra dig can be pitched to force of will if needed but 3 delve cards in the 75 seems like it can be a lot of GY removal for Deathrite Shaman and Tarmogoyf....

[hobart]

really...when did it change.

I'm pretty sure there was never a time when you could select just one blocking creature to assign damage to and then trample directly to the player. My army of weenies was always able to save me from your one big trampler (assuming I had enough combined toughness). The big difference from back in the day is that you used to be able to pick exactly how much damage you wanted to assign to each blocker (did not necessarily have to be lethal, but none could go to the player unless you had at least lethal to each creature), that was of course when damage went on the stack, and then before the damage resolved you could do combat tricks or whatever to keep some of the creatures alive.

[Islandswamp]

I'm going to try and make a list with Hymn to Tourach, and stuff like that, right now I only have the cards for a version similar to Jim Davis's list.

One thing to note: I switched the marsh casualties out for golgari charms. I had a game VS what I assume was an identical mirror (he had dark confidant and stifle). After beating each other back and forth, killing threats, I stick a dark confidant, and manage to draw a couple cards off of it by protecting it on the turn or two where he had removal (I flipped into spell pierce and stuff). One turn, he resolves his own Dark Confidant. I look at the golgari charm in my hand, thinking about the shrivel mode. I remember it has a regeneration mode. I swing in with bob, he tries to trade, I charm to regenerate, he scoops.

Being that I'm NEVER having five mana to kick the marsh casualties, golgari charm gets the nod.

[drocker23]

I'm going to try and make a list with Hymn to Tourach, and stuff like that, right now I only have the cards for a version similar to Jim Davis's list.

One thing to note: I switched the marsh casualties out for golgari charms. I had a game VS what I assume was an identical mirror (he had dark confidant and stifle). After beating each other back and forth, killing threats, I stick a dark confidant, and manage to draw a couple cards off of it by protecting it on the turn or two where he had removal (I flipped into spell pierce and stuff). One turn, he resolves his own Dark Confidant. I look at the golgari charm in my hand, thinking about the shrivel mode. I remember it has a regeneration mode. I swing in with bob, he tries to trade, I charm to regenerate, he scoops.

Being that I'm NEVER having five mana to kick the marsh casualties, golgari charm gets the nod.

The idea behind Marsh Casualties isn't to get to 5 mana to kick it. It's to cast it to kill your opponent's creatures without killing your own. So in the scenario you presented, you could have just casted Marsh Casualties, killed his Dark Confidant and attacked him for 2. There would be no need for the combat shenanigans. Had he not blocked, you then would have been forced to make a decision whether or not to kill yours and his to keep him off of drawing extra cards.

I'm not saying Marsh Casualties is the better card overall, but in your scenario you presented, it would be miles ahead of Golgari Charm. I believe the reason why Jim Davis decided on Marsh Casualties is because he was playing 3 Dark Confidants and 1 True-Name Nemesis. So he would be in many scenarios like yours where he doesn't want to kill his own creatures, he just wants to kill theirs because his creatures need to stay in play and stay alive in order to generate card advantage for him. Personally, as much as I love Dark Confidant, I'm not a big fan of him in the deck at all. It can be so difficult to keep him alive. But I'm sure there are plenty of situations where baiting out a removal spell with a Delver of Secrets and then playing a Dark Confidant is probably a pretty solid play...things like that.

[Islandswamp]

The idea behind Marsh Casualties isn't to get to 5 mana to kick it. It's to cast it to kill your opponent's creatures without killing your own. So in the scenario you presented, you could have just casted Marsh Casualties, killed his Dark Confidant and attacked him for 2. There would be no need for the combat shenanigans. Had he not blocked, you then would have been forced to make a decision whether or not to kill yours and his to keep him off of drawing extra cards.

I'm not saying Marsh Casualties is the better card overall, but in your scenario you presented, it would be miles ahead of Golgari Charm. I believe the reason why Jim Davis decided on Marsh Casualties is because he was playing 3 Dark Confidants and 1 True-Name Nemesis. So he would be in many scenarios like yours where he doesn't want to kill his own creatures, he just wants to kill theirs because his creatures need to stay in play and stay alive in order to generate card advantage for him. Personally, as much as I love Dark Confidant, I'm not a big fan of him in the deck at all. It can be so difficult to keep him alive. But I'm sure there are plenty of situations where baiting out a removal spell with a Delver of Secrets and then playing a Dark Confidant is probably a pretty solid play...things like that.

I should have mentioned, I don't think I had double black. Getting two black mana isn't easy with my list.

Also, at the time this game was being played, I had a 1/1 split of marsh casualties and golgari charm. I understand not wanting to kill my own guys with the shrivel effect. But having two other useful modes is really nice.

[Islandswamp]

The only thing I don't like about running the dark confidants is that having 16 creatures makes for some games where you can never seem to flip a delver without some help.

Usually, I'll try to make sure I can protect the Dark Confidant once, after that, the extra card I get usually means protecting him is easy. I'll try and keep them off of whatever color will let them play a removal spell, hold up spell pierce, and go to town. If you flip two two extra cards, you're nice and ahead. Plus it takes the sting out of pitching a card to force of will.

I haven't had the misfortune of revealing a Force of Will to a Dark Confidant trigger yet, I'm sure when it happens, it will suck.

Like I mentioned before, I really like the look of the other lists I've seen here. I really to plan on collecting more cards to build those versions too. There are so many awesome cards in this color combination, it seems like a bunch of awesome lists can be made.

[btm10]

After scrubbing hard at my first Legacy tournament in like a month yesterday because I played Landstill, I decided to refocus my energies on BUG. I (re)started from the "stock" pre-Cruise list, and playing against strangers on Cockatrice suggests that this is a reasonable starting point:


Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 True-Name Nemesis

Draw/Manipulation (9)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

Disruption/Removal (19)
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Spell Pierce

Land (19)
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Spell Pierce
1 Divert
1 Flusterstorm

I'm tempted to cut the 4th Hymn for a Dismember, but earlier experience suggests that Liliana is a better way to killing non-Decay-able creatures, at least until Mandrils catches on more (which it really should). I'd classify the manabase as medium-greedy, but with only two cards requiring UU (only one of which is main) I'm fine with this configuration for now. There are still situations where a more dedicated tempo deck can punish you if you need the TNN, but that's a corner-case and you still have all of your normal BUG things to help out. Divert might be better as a Creeping Tar Pit, until I start seeing more BUG mirrors.

EDIT: I also want a second Library in the board for the mirror and Miracles, but it's a tight fit.

[KobeBryan]

After scrubbing hard at my first Legacy tournament in like a month yesterday because I played Landstill, I decided to refocus my energies on BUG. I (re)started from the "stock" pre-Cruise list, and playing against strangers on Cockatrice suggests that this is a reasonable starting point:


Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 True-Name Nemesis

Draw/Manipulation (9)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

Disruption/Removal (19)
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Spell Pierce

Land (19)
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Spell Pierce
1 Divert
1 Flusterstorm

I'm tempted to cut the 4th Hymn for a Dismember, but earlier experience suggests that Liliana is a better way to killing non-Decay-able creatures, at least until Mandrils catches on more (which it really should). I'd classify the manabase as medium-greedy, but with only two cards requiring UU (only one of which is main) I'm fine with this configuration for now. There are still situations where a more dedicated tempo deck can punish you if you need the TNN, but that's a corner-case and you still have all of your normal BUG things to help out. Divert might be better as a Creeping Tar Pit, until I start seeing more BUG mirrors.

I'm also thinking mandrills is good due to the trample.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

You and the trample again, KobeBryan ;-)

[KobeBryan]

Just came back from a 60+ man tournament

went 4-2

match 1 - shardless bug (2-1) (1-0)

Game 1 - lost to his goyf and baleful strix
game 2. - 3 delvers get me there
game 3- hooting mandrils did the damage when he chumped with his shardless agents and then the baleful

Match 2 - Some UW with jace (1-2) (1-1)
I lost to jace both rounds. Won off of DRS

Match 3 - I think its TES (2-1) (2-1)
Game 1 - He blanks and my goyf got me there

Game 2 - i get flooded with turn 1 brainstrom when he duressed, drew 3 lands, total land out - 6

Game 3 - double goyf got me there.

Match 4 - UW stoneblade/TNN/Countertop/senseis (2-1) (3-1)

Game 1 - won with TNN and a jitte, then locked me out with sensei's top

Game 2 - won with 3 delvers

Game 3 - he blanked me with wastelands and i got there with double drs and 2 flipped delvers (misplayed 2 turns since i forgot to flip the delvers twice, fatigue).

Match 5 - Junk (2-1) (4-1)

Game 1 - he gets me with stoneforge mystic and skull and jitte
Game 2 - I win with delver and i believe a goyf.
Game 3 - sylvan library won me the game. The library kept giving me things to kill his thalia, mother of runes. Hooting mandrils did some work here when he trampled through the thalia.

Match 6 - Painters (0-2) (4-2)

Game 1 - Turn two blood moon
Game 2 - Turn 3 blood moon with Pyroblast.

Thoughts. - The main deck is fine as hell. II would not even replace 1 card with it. People do not like tasigur and hooting mandrils. But I have to say that when i got either a goyf out or a hooting out, people always target my hooting first. I'm really thinking of dropping tasigur and playing mandrils as a two of. We will see. Problem is delver NEVER flips. I could have won some games if delver behaved and flipped faster than me setting things up for it.

Decklist

19 lands
4 wastelands
4 underground sea
3 polluted delta
2 misty
3 verdent catacombs
2 bayou
1 trop

Creatures
4 goyf
4 delver
4 drs
1 hooting
1 tasigur

spells
4 hymn
4 force
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 decays
4 daze

1 liliana of the veil

Sideboard

1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 maelstrom pulse
2 disfigure
3 golgari charm (probably too many, but i didn't wanna get raped by elves or dnt)
1 creeping tarpit
2 spell pierce
2 vendilion clique
1 grafdiggers cage
1 surgical extraction

I didn't use surgical all day. Grafdiggers cage stopped PIF, and thats about it. I also used it against GSZ in junk matchup.

null rod stopped lots of equipments like me killing the skull token, stopped the jitte, stopped equipment. I would not leave home without it. Pithing needle didn't do too much except i named a sofi when it came into play, otherwise it would be hitting me pretty hard each turn.

disfigure was a champ against those sfm decks, shardless, and junk

I found myself boarding out my delve creatures quite often against jace decks and combo decks. Against everythign else, i left it in just because all the plows already to towards DRS and delvers turn 1 or turn 2.

I probably want to get rid of liliana, since it didn't really do too much and doesn't flip delvers, but it may be a necessary evil

[Manipulato]

Just came back from a 60+ man tournament

went 4-2

match 1 - shardless bug (2-1) (1-0)

Game 1 - lost to his goyf and baleful strix
game 2. - 3 delvers get me there
game 3- hooting mandrils did the damage when he chumped with his shardless agents and then the baleful

Match 2 - Some UW with jace (1-2) (1-1)
I lost to jace both rounds. Won off of DRS

Match 3 - I think its TES (2-1) (2-1)
Game 1 - He blanks and my goyf got me there

Game 2 - i get flooded with turn 1 brainstrom when he duressed, drew 3 lands, total land out - 6

Game 3 - double goyf got me there.

Match 4 - UW stoneblade/TNN/Countertop/senseis (2-1) (3-1)

Game 1 - won with TNN and a jitte, then locked me out with sensei's top

Game 2 - won with 3 delvers

Game 3 - he blanked me with wastelands and i got there with double drs and 2 flipped delvers (misplayed 2 turns since i forgot to flip the delvers twice, fatigue).

Match 5 - Junk (2-1) (4-1)

Game 1 - he gets me with stoneforge mystic and skull and jitte
Game 2 - I win with delver and i believe a goyf.
Game 3 - sylvan library won me the game. The library kept giving me things to kill his thalia, mother of runes. Hooting mandrils did some work here when he trampled through the thalia.

Match 6 - Painters (0-2) (4-2)

Game 1 - Turn two blood moon
Game 2 - Turn 3 blood moon with Pyroblast.

Thoughts. - The main deck is fine as hell. II would not even replace 1 card with it. People do not like tasigur and hooting mandrils. But I have to say that when i got either a goyf out or a hooting out, people always target my hooting first. I'm really thinking of dropping tasigur and playing mandrils as a two of. We will see. Problem is delver NEVER flips. I could have won some games if delver behaved and flipped faster than me setting things up for it.

Decklist

19 lands
4 wastelands
4 underground sea
3 polluted delta
2 misty
3 verdent catacombs
2 bayou
1 trop

Creatures
4 goyf
4 delver
4 drs
1 hooting
1 tasigur

spells
4 hymn
4 force
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 decays
4 daze

1 liliana of the veil

Sideboard

1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 maelstrom pulse
2 disfigure
3 golgari charm (probably too many, but i didn't wanna get raped by elves or dnt)
1 creeping tarpit
2 spell pierce
2 vendilion clique
1 grafdiggers cage
1 surgical extraction

I didn't use surgical all day. Grafdiggers cage stopped PIF, and thats about it. I also used it against GSZ in junk matchup.

null rod stopped lots of equipments like me killing the skull token, stopped the jitte, stopped equipment. I would not leave home without it. Pithing needle didn't do too much except i named a sofi when it came into play, otherwise it would be hitting me pretty hard each turn.

disfigure was a champ against those sfm decks, shardless, and junk

I found myself boarding out my delve creatures quite often against jace decks and combo decks. Against everythign else, i left it in just because all the plows already to towards DRS and delvers turn 1 or turn 2.

I probably want to get rid of liliana, since it didn't really do too much and doesn't flip delvers, but it may be a necessary evil

I really like Hooting Mandrills too, I tested him in RUG and was very impressed by him. He not just laughs at TNN, he also tramples over DS, Delver, Boby, Mother, Thalia and tons of other creatures. 19 lands are a bit to low for my taste especially with 4 Hymn, Lili & 2 Bayous in the manabase.
If you would cut the Lili for disfigure and maybe a bayou for a trop I would be fine with 19 lands.

I have a turney on Saturday on my own and will test the standard Hymn/Lili build and maybe I replace the Lili afterwards with Disfigure so that the Delvers flip more consistant, but the deck was never a really good "Delver deck".

By the way. Where is your Sylvan Library from round 5?? :laugh: