[Deck] Suicide Black

[technogeek5000]

Well my last list had 4 confidants and 3 snuf outs. Even though it hurts to top it to confidant it should still be worth it. 4 snuff outs with 4 confidants I think is a nono an you have to cut either of their counts by 1. Also as a last resort i think you have to have 3+ jittes to give you a little life if it becomes neccesary. So to answer your question: Yes... but only if you run three of either bob or snuff out and if you run jittes.

[Versus]

Techno, you're a brave man! I've comented before on using 3 life taking cards, but now 4! Bob, Snuff Out, 1 drop Zombies, and Fetches all in the same deck really is Suicide. Sometimes it's difficult to get a Jitte online. I'd rather lose a little tempo with Smother than just mill myself by turn 4.

[Baumeister]

I just thought about it, but pulling a Snuff Out with Dark Confidant is four life. Is it really that appealling to spend four more to kill a creature? Not a lot of creatures in this format can do 8 damage to a person and that just seems like a way more prohibitive cost than 2 mana. And your statement about how it's important to find a Jitte and get it online to start gaining back that life is a little oximoronic. I think the way Suicide is built is that you should care about your life only a little bit, but when it gets to the point where you need one card that costs four to play and equip to stop the bleeding, that it's too much for this deck to care about.

[Anarky87]

I just thought about it, but pulling a Snuff Out with Dark Confidant is four life. Is it really that appealling to spend four more to kill a creature? Not a lot of creatures in this format can do 8 damage to a person and that just seems like a way more prohibitive cost than 2 mana. And your statement about how it's important to find a Jitte and get it online to start gaining back that life is a little oximoronic. I think the way Suicide is built is that you should care about your life only a little bit, but when it gets to the point where you need one card that costs four to play and equip to stop the bleeding, that it's too much for this deck to care about.

I'm not quite sure I understand. You're worried about the rare chance of flipping Snuff with Bob, but then go on to say you should only care about your life a little, but then want to turn down Jitte because it costs 4 to gain you 4 life and more? Not to mention make all your dudes huge and just the fact that Jitte is stupid good.

And realistically, Bob isn't doing 8 damage to you by himself. He'll hit you for the Snuff, then you drop the Snuff and keep on swinging. I'd pay 8 life to eliminate a threat that's stopping my onslaught. Because then I'll drop a Jitte and equip it, and in the chance I think I need it, gain some life back.

[Versus]

Of course you wont pull Snuff with Bob every game. Chances are you wont for many games in a row. I just think having the potential to lose so much life with 4 different sources may prove to hinder you more times than keeping tempo will help you.

Tempo is the reason you'd chose this over other removal, yes? Otherwise it's just an overcosted Terror as I can't think of any prominant artifact creature threats in Legacy.

IMO I'd rather pay 1B to Smother almost anything INCLUDING opposing Shades, Hippies, Negators, and whatever else Deadguy/Red Death/Mirror would throw my way.

[Anarky87]

Of course you wont pull Snuff with Bob every game. Chances are you wont for many games in a row. I just think having the potential to lose so much life with 4 different sources may prove to hinder you more times than the quick paced tempo will help you.

I would simply rather pay 1B to kill almost anything INCLUDING opposing Shades, Hippies, Negators, and whatever else Deadguy/Red Death/Mirror would throw my way.

That's the same argument people used when Fish ran Dark Confidant and Force of Will in the same deck. That's essentially a 6 life loss effect, so why run it? Granted, they had manipulation to help that, but Fish isn't an aggressive deck. Sui is. If the deck wants to be the aggressor, like it's supposed to be, then free spells like Snuff would be the way to go. Or run both, that's an option, but I think I'd rather have Jitte over Smother.

If you'd rather wait a turn to hold back on your Smother, by all means go ahead. But if I can kill a critter, play disruption, and drop a Jitte all in one turn, I'd definitely choose Snuff Out.

[Versus]

I understand that. I'm not discrediting Snuff Out. I would use it in mono-black without Fetches and confidant though. I'm not even mentioning Bob because you can draw a 4cc off him. I'm just saying with all four life lose components it seems like it could get real risky, real fast.

Still, there seems to be plenty of viable decks running black that would make SO a dead card. Besides the three archetypes I mentioned above, you can add Pox to the list as well.

I'll concede to this though as I don't know the format (or the meta) enough to make a solid argument.

[Anarky87]

I understand that. I'm not discrediting Snuff Out. I would use it in mono-black without Fetches and confidant though. I'm not even mentioning Bob because you can draw a 4cc off him. I'm just saying with all four life lose components it seems like it could get real risky, real fast.

Still, there seems to be plenty of viable decks running black that would make SO a dead card. Besides the three archetypes I mentioned above, you can add Pox to the list as well.

I'll concede to this though as I don't know the format (or the meta) enough to make a solid argument.

If your meta has a lot of Sui in it (Deadguy, Red Death, etc) I would probably swap out Snuff Out for Smother or Edict. But for a large event, I would definitely stick to Snuff Out. I'll say that much.

[Baumeister]

I'm not quite sure I understand. You're worried about the rare chance of flipping Snuff with Bob, but then go on to say you should only care about your life a little, but then want to turn down Jitte because it costs 4 to gain you 4 life and more? Not to mention make all your dudes huge and just the fact that Jitte is stupid good.

I think you're overestimating Jitte. I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but Jitte can't realistically do all that you say it can. Yeah, you can dropped Jitte on turn 3 and equip it to start beating face on turn four. The counters will only start adding up by turn 5 and if you're removing them to gain life, then Jitte isn't helping you win the game, it's only prolonging it. Suicide Black does not like long games. Jitte is an amazing equipment, it just won't win the game if you're removing counters to gain life.

[Anarky87]

I think you're overestimating Jitte. I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but Jitte can't realistically do all that you say it can. Yeah, you can dropped Jitte on turn 3 and equip it to start beating face on turn four. The counters will only start adding up by turn 5 and if you're removing them to gain life, then Jitte isn't helping you win the game, it's only prolonging it. Suicide Black does not like long games. Jitte is an amazing equipment, it just won't win the game if you're removing counters to gain life.

Except, realistically, it can. A best case scenario is you drop a dude on turn one, with the possiblity of Ritualing a Jitte equip and swinging turn 2. Now you're ahead of the game. Or you can drop it turn 3/4, depending on your hand and equip it and start swinging. It'll gain 2 counters, and if you so need to, you can remove 1 to gain 2 life and give the creature +2/+2. There, now you're gaining life and beating face. Kind of like doing all the things I said it could do.

It seems you're just trying to avoid Jitte. Nobody said you need to pull the counters off to gain life. When playing Sui, Red Death, and Deadguy, I hardly ever pulled off counters for life. I just kept letting them build up. If there were cases I needed to race, then I'd just rip them off for +4/+4, and throw my life total to the wind.


Also as a last resort i think you have to have 3+ jittes to give you a little life if it becomes neccesary.Bolded for emphasis. I think Jitte is a fantastic addition to Sui decks.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Except, realistically, it can. A best case scenario is you drop a dude on turn one, with the possiblity of Ritualing a Jitte equip and swinging turn 2. Now you're ahead of the game. Or you can drop it turn 3/4, depending on your hand and equip it and start swinging. It'll gain 2 counters, and if you so need to, you can remove 1 to gain 2 life and give the creature +2/+2. There, now you're gaining life and beating face. Kind of like doing all the things I said it could do.

It seems you're just trying to avoid Jitte. Nobody said you need to pull the counters off to gain life. When playing Sui, Red Death, and Deadguy, I hardly ever pulled off counters for life. I just kept letting them build up. If there were cases I needed to race, then I'd just rip them off for +4/+4, and throw my life total to the wind.

Bolded for emphasis. I think Jitte is a fantastic addition to Sui decks.

Quoted for truth!

[Baumeister]

Okay, I digress. I don't play the one-casting-cost dudes, so Jitte isn't nearly as affective. Good points though, and thanks for not bashing me.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Okay, I digress. I don't play the one-casting-cost dudes, so Jitte isn't nearly as affective. Good points though, and thanks for not bashing me.

People who bash are just jank.

[Baumeister]

Okay from the last few posts, I've decided to change up my deck a little bit.

Lands (21)
17 Swamps
4 Wasteland

Creatures (18)
3 Dark Confidant
3 Wretched Anurid
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter

Other Spells (21)
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
3 Vendetta
4 Smother
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Is this list just complete jank? I took out Sinkhole because even though it's insanely good, I wanted room for Dark Confidant and Jitte. I never liked the one-casting cost, 2/2 zombies. I just think more significant threats are better. Just give me some feedback on the deck please.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Okay from the last few posts, I've decided to change up my deck a little bit.

Lands (21)
17 Swamps
4 Wasteland

Creatures (18)
3 Dark Confidant
3 Wretched Anurid
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter

Other Spells (21)
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
3 Vendetta
4 Smother
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Is this list just complete jank? I took out Sinkhole because even though it's insanely good, I wanted room for Dark Confidant and Jitte. I never liked the one-casting cost, 2/2 zombies. I just think more significant threats are better. Just give me some feedback on the deck please.

No, its not complete jank at all. Just looking at it real quick, I think there is a few things you might want to change. One, I think you will be putting plenty of things in the gy to support Rotting Giant. I like him much better than Wretched Annurid. Also, maybe not a huge reason but against Ichorid you can just sac him easily to stop some Bridges.

Since you are running Hyppies, I would throw in another swamp.

[technogeek5000]

I just got back from hadley. I got 5/8th and got 6 packs. I lost to UGR thresh, the same person i beat 2-1 in the swiss. My record for the swiss was 4-1-1. There was 38 people and im not sure who won. I have a b-day tommorow so ill write up a report here on monday after school.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I just got back from hadley. I got 5/8th and got 6 packs. I lost to UGR thresh, the same person i beat 2-1 in the swiss. My record for the swiss was 4-1-1. There was 38 people and im not sure who won. I have a b-day tommorow so ill write up a report here on monday after school.

Thats a strong showing Techno. Alright, I can't wait to see the report and HAPPY BIRTHDAY Sui style:cool:

Anyone think Cabal Therapy is a solid main board option? Once I get some Dark Confidants, I was thinking they are solid together. The Therapy would replace the need for Hyppie imo. Also, Bob would be netting you more creatures to sac for the flashback. Heh, and if Bob is putting to much hurt on you or if you have multiple Bobs in your hand... than sac one for the flashback and lay down the other. The legion of doom here would look something like...

Negator x 4
Sarcomancy x 4
Carnophage x 4
Bob x 4
Shade/Giant/??? x 3

Which is plenty to make Therapy effective. Another question, if the Therapies are in my mainboard, what would the SB look like.

Dystopia x 4
EP x 4
Planar Void x 4
???

[Baumeister]

I always thought Cabal Therapy was a better sideboard card. But, with all the Tarmogoyfs and fast combo around, it could be an excellent card. I do like the fact that you can get rid of Dark Confidants if they're hurting you too much. As for the last spot, I would run Nantuko Shade. He's got a lot of late game staying power as well as some early beats, and, he can take down Tarmogoyfs. You should probably have at least 20 lands if you're going to run him though.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I think you could pull it off with 18-19 and still run the Shade. Keep in mind that Bob will be drawing you lands. Its an interesting interaction, because Bob draws you business spells and more land. Do you pump up your Shade to something beastly or drop that spell? I think it is not a bad thing, because it gives you the opportunity to make a tactical judgment either way. Sometimes the only thing you should be doing is keeping that Shade big imo.

[Silthyn]

This is my current build:

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vendetta/Smother
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Comments?

[Baumeister]

This is my current build:

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vendetta/Smother
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Comments?

I think you're gonna want more removal. Even though you have Dark Confidant to draw into the removal you have, it might not be enough. You ALWAYS want an answer to creatures that are going to stop your assult (especially Tarmogoyf). Jitte is good, but honestly, how many 1/1 creatures see play that your creatures can't handle?

[Galroth]

@Silthyn - Your list is solid and what I would consider fairly standard. That's not to say it's optimal, but many of us have different opinions as to what exactly optimal is. Often times it comes down to meta choices. But your deck again is an excellent place to begin.

Some options which exist and may make your list better (or worse).

Creature removal - Baumeister suggests more. I for one wouldn't add more (in fact my lists run considerably less, but sometimes my lists are a little controversial). If Tarmogoyf is constantly giving you problems in like 50% of your games, then Baumeister may very well be right. I wouldn't however, cut your Jitte count to add more removal. Find something else to cut first.

Land destruction - How important are those wastelands? What do you want for your disruption elements. Some metas you want just lots of discard, others you want wasteland and sinkhole. How often are those wastelands serving the purpose of actually disrupting the opponent and gaining you tempo? It's possible that acceleration might be more important than the potential disruption of wasteland; such as an additional swamp and 3x chrome mox. Hell, I've been experimenting with Lake of the Dead lately, and sometimes it can pull out ridiculous plays that set up game winning positions.

Creatures - Again, what you've chosen is fairly standard and solid. Optimal is yet again debateable. I assume you've given this topic lots of thought; so I won't go through the list of other possible candidates, nor how many to include. But I would recommend justifying (to yourself, using whatever theory you can muster) why you've chosen that selection of creatures and that number of creatures; both on an individual basis of each creature, and with reference to the rest of your deck.

Good Luck.

[Baumeister]

Creature removal - Baumeister suggests more. I for one wouldn't add more (in fact my lists run considerably less, but sometimes my lists are a little controversial). If Tarmogoyf is constantly giving you problems in like 50% of your games, then Baumeister may very well be right. I wouldn't however, cut your Jitte count to add more removal. Find something else to cut first.

Hmm... I didn't mean to suggest cutting Jitte, but that's exactly what it sounds like. No, keep Jitte in there, but maybe find room for more removal elsewhere. If you do cut Wasteland like Galroth suggested, you could drop your land count to 18 or 19. That would free up more room for removal. I'm just going from experience though. I run 7 pieces of removal and there have been very few times when they were dead. I recommend Vendetta and Smother, but, because your list is focused on quicker beats, you might want to look at Snuff Out. As for creatures, I might look into putting in ones that have more oomph to them. Rotting Giant and Wretched Anurid are good beaters and can compete more in the late game.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Hmmm, I still think we are not giving Cabal Therapy enough thought. Anyone have good experience mainboarding it? I think it could change things.

[technogeek5000]

So after nearly 9 straight hours of shredding on guitar hero and some celebratory cake I decided to get this thing done a little early.

I spend the early hours of the day and the car ride trying to convine my dad to run viable cards in place of jank that he wants to play in his sui list. To make a long argument short, i lost... so my dad runs (in place of snuff outs and rotting giants) hatreds, culling the weaks, and a few other bad cards. I arrived at the tournament at around 12:30. Killemall was sitting with 2 other people in the back corner of the store and hands me 2 bloodstained mire. His group bought the two cards I was going to lend to him so i felt a little embarrased. I go to the counter to buy my third mire and my dad 2 more negators but there sold out of both. Bummer. I learn through the day thought that if you run 10 white sources it wont kill you as i had no problems finding my white mana. Oh and 38 people showed.

My final list.

SUI WHITE
Lands:
4 scrubland
7 swamps
4 Polluted deltas
2 Bloodstained mires
4 Wasteland

Legion of Doom:
4 Dark confidant
4 Hippie
4 carnophage
3 Jotun grunt
3 Negator

Control suite:
4 hymn to tourach
4 Stp
3 duress
3 ummewaza's jitte
3 sinkhole

Acceleration:
4 Dark ritual

Board that goes on the side:
4 E plauge
4 Planar void
3 Cabal therapies
3 Dystopia
1 Duress

Round 1: Getsickanddie playing Vial affinity
Game 1:
He casts a bunch of 0 cast artifacts and lays a frogmite turn 1. I cast my own 2/2 to match it. He then casts a cranil plating and my lone stp doesnt hold it off.

I unfortunately took out my null rods earlier so i dont side in anything.

Game 2:
I kill his city of brass turn 1 with a sinkhole off of a rit. He doesnt get any red or black mana to cast his guys and i get a jitte online with a hippie.

Game 3(sort of):
I honestly dont remember a thing about this game. Getsickanddie if you could contact me with the information on this game i would appreciate it.

1-0 (2-1)


Round 2: ForceofWill playing ichorid :cry: :cry: :cry:
I see a stinkweed imp while we shuffle up and I die a little inside. This is the man that beat me in the finals of the last tournament I did well at and I wanted a little payback.

Game 1:
I duress away a LED turn 1 but i sigh as he topdecks another one. After a few turns he brings back 2 ichys but they both get Stped at the end of his upkeep so he cant therapy me. I cast a jitte and get it online with a hippie, confidant, and carnophage. He dread returns a 13/13 grave troll but it goes farming. I shoot my own confidant down to get rid of all 4 of his bridges and cast another one. I cast a grunt and I gets lots of counters on my jittesies to hold off another large grave troll.

I take a huge breath. This is going well.

Sideboard out: 1 wasteland, 4 hymn to tourach
Sideboard in: 1 duress, 4 Planar void

Game 2:
He smiles and casts a LED. I smile bigger and cast a planar void. He hardcasts a golgari thug and I get a confidant and a hippie before he scoops.

2-0 (4-1)


Round 3: KillemAll playing UGR thresh
Game 1:
We trade removal pieces for a while and im pretty sure i screw up and get my grunt killed. he gets multiple beaters and finishes me. I didnt take any notes down after the second game so my matches wont be perfect.

Sideboard out: 2 Carnophage, 1 negator, 4 hymns
Sideboard in: 4 dystopias, 3 planar void

Game 2:
I get a early void and hes screwed off of thresh for a while. I kill his goyfs and cast a confidant and a hippie netting me serious card advantage over him. He gets double counterbalance and a top. After he shoots my void I land a dystopia and clear his betaers. A negator sticks and i have to many lands for his burn to clear my board.

Game 3. Basically game2 but my void sticks a little later making tarmogoyf a 3/4. I get dystopia with confidant and hold onto it after his creatures are gone for a few turns to keep him board clean while gator works on his life total.

What my write up of this match doesnt tell you that this was probably one of the most difficult and thought provoking games i have ever played. Kudos to Jeremy for giving me an incredible match. These games stretched my nerves for the next two rounds and caused me to make a few minor mistakes in my next match.

3-0 (6-2)


Round 4: Neil (Unregged?) playing GWB homebrew control

I remove some of his mana and lay a few beaters. He casts 2 confidants and i can only asnwer one. he kills my confidant so he starts to gain card advantage. I duress away some of his mass removal and get a great hymn taking eternal witness and a mass removal. He sets off a pernicous deed and it leaves 2 epochrasites. My grunt took his thresh for a while but he finishes me with nantuko monastery.

Sideboard out: 1 carnophage
Sideboard in: 1 duress

Game 2:
A repeat of game two essentialy. He uses mass removal and it suspends epochrasite. His deck seamed alot like Rockin funkbrew so i suggest running spectral lynx and river boa in place of epochrasite.

3-1 (6-4)


Round 5: Rich meyst playing Domain Zoo
Game 1:
He casts kird ape and i waste his land. I match it with my zombies and we stand off for a short time. he beats me down while i try to stabilize. I let 1 to many attack go and he double bolts me for the win.

I dont side anything

Game 2:
He casts pithing needle turn 1 calling wasteland. I shrug and sink hole his land away not once, not twice, but 3 FREAKING TIMES. He has no mo mana and I believe jitte hits the board.

Game 3:
he casts a bunch of 1 cc creatures but i stabilize by casting 3 hippies and 2 negators. My sheer creature quality ovewhelms him and confidant helps me find additional beaters and disruption.

4-1 (8-5)


Round 6: Pat playing UGRW thresh

ID into top the top 8. Im third in the standings at this point so im happy.

4-1-1 (8-5-1)


Quarterfinals: Killemall playing UGR thresh
Game 1:
He gets early thresh and casts a goose and a goyf. The goyf goes farming but the goose sticks around. I lose grunts to counter magic and stupid mistakes. I get a negator with a jitte and it creates a standstill for a little while. He asks for my life total and I grimace and say 12. He swings with 3 Mongooses (Mongoosi?) and gator justs sits there and gets raped.

Sideboard out: 2 Carnophage, 1 Negaor, 4 Hymns
Sideboard in: 4 Planar voids, 3 dystopias

I get some hate out early but there is already cards in the grave for goyf to use. I get down a dystopia that clears the way for a gator but he hits it with a grip and gets my void. He hits threshold and i land a grunt. I make the mistake of attacking with it and he double blocks and everything dies. Another gathering mongoose comes and finishes the rest of my board.


I get 6 packs but i dont get much in them. Im still happy though because i got some positive results in for my deck. This was a funky meta. Here was some of the decks i saw:

2 Burn
2 Vial affinity
2 Sui(me and my dad but still)
6897876387268472649877.3 random aggro

Props:
Suicide for being a intelligent meta choice for the tournament
Dark rit for making sui viable
Dad for driving 3+ hours
Killemall for lending me cards to finish my deck
Confidant for being great
All the people back on the source who gave kind words to my little pile

Slops:
Packs for 5-8
Dad for not playing good cards
And a few other things i can think of right now.

Peace,
Tg5k

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Great write-up techno. You can add me to the list of future Suicide White players. I am going to theory myself a list and see what happens. What I like about Suicide White is its kinda the uncola of Legacy right now. Kinda like the 7up to Threshold's Pepsi. Its aggro, and its control but there is not green or blue in sight. Better yet, no Goyf. I am sick of the dude. Grunt for the peoples!

I few questions for you though, did you feel the removal was enough? How did the SB feel? Also, do you think the disruption suite can be improved? I am dark confidant that this deck is going to go places.

[Galroth]

Cabal Therapy - Yup, I had some limited success with it. The build I'm refering to I posted a number of pages back. It cut the land destruction element, focused a little more on small beaters and pumpable creatures, and included hypnotic specter. I actually have two mono-b suicide black builds, both of which have done quite well for me. I think Cabal Therapy is unfortunately one of the first cards to cut when making space. There are plenty of times I think dropping to 3 mainboard is appropriate. While it's obvious, I'll state it anyways. Therapy is much better with 20+ creatures, and/or Confidant. If you don't have either of those, I wouldn't consider it.

[Silthyn]

Some says there will be a new duress in Lorwyn. Here's the sick card:

*Neo Duress*
Sorcery (Uncommon or Rare)
Look at target player's hand, and choose a non-land card from it. That player discard that card. You lose 2 life.

I don't know if this is true. The only thing I know, is that you can get rid of Tarmogoyf, and Tarmogoyf is a good card. Is this worth running over Duress?

[eternaldarkness]

The problem with the card is the lifeloss. Between Confidant, fetchlands and snuff out, I don't think you really want the additional 2 life lost tacked on to this card.

Also, what match-ups will this card improve? Neo-duress gets to hit creatures cards true, but if you really want to hit creatures with your duress then you are most likely in an aggro match. In this case, the 2 life lost will further hurt your chances of racing.

I would much rather run duress along side black removal than over Neo-duress. At least in this deck.

[Silthyn]

The problem with the card is the lifeloss. Between Confidant, fetchlands and snuff out, I don't think you really want the additional 2 life lost tacked on to this card.

Also, what match-ups will this card improve? Neo-duress gets to hit creatures cards true, but if you really want to hit creatures with your duress then you are most likely in an aggro match. In this case, the 2 life lost will further hurt your chances of racing.

I would much rather run duress along side black removal than over Neo-duress. At least in this deck.

True, if you do run Fetchlands, Snuff Out and Confidant in the same deck. I don't, so this card could be included in my list.

[eternaldarkness]

In which case then yeah, I can see using this card over duress.

Now I'm crossing my fingers that it stays 1cc!

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Some says there will be a new duress in Lorwyn. Here's the sick card:

*Neo Duress*
Sorcery (Uncommon or Rare)
Look at target player's hand, and choose a non-land card from it. That player discard that card. You lose 2 life.

I don't know if this is true. The only thing I know, is that you can get rid of Tarmogoyf, and Tarmogoyf is a good card. Is this worth running over Duress?

Heh, that is not even a question. I would run it without a doubt.

@Galroth, when you say limited success I guess it wasn't one of the mvp's huh. Hmmmm, well I am trying it myself but right now I can't conclude anything. I think you could be right in that it might not be the most optimal play.

[technogeek5000]

Neo duress is the shit. If there is a new portent then theres a probably gonna be a new duress so we can safely except this as real. I will be testing neo duress in my sui white list and see how it goes. Also i will be playing a playset because its not dead against goblins and good against aggro. the only problem i see with this is that in sui white the life loss might be pushing it over the top. Oh and eternal darkness, Noone runs fethces sunff outs and confidants in the same deck. if your running fetches that means your splashing for a color and you wont be using Snuff out as your removal.

@tea cup: Umm the removal is definately enough. 4 main removal plus 3-4 jittes im pretty sure is the way to go in this deck. Also about the sideboard. I think the real strength in this dedck is that all its hate are game winning cards. Planar void ends games against breakfast, thresh, and ichorid. E plauge ends games against gobs. Dystopia ends games against thresh (double the hate for the best deck in the format, this makes it good currently in addition to all the other broken things the deck has going for it) and a bunch of white/green decks. Cabal therapy by itself doesnt end games but it contributes to the win. If neo duress is real then duress will go in cabal therapies place.

So here would be my new list for the post lorwyn metagame. Im gonna test this one out and see how it goes
Land:
4 scrubland
4 wasteland
7 fetches
6 swamps

Creatures:
4 Hippie
4 carnophage
4 dark confidant
3 Grunt
3 gator

Disruption:
4 neo duress
4 Stp
3 hymn
3 sinkhole
3 Jitte

Acceleration:
4 dark ritual

Sideboard:
4 E plauges
4 Planar voids
4 duress
3 dystopia

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Neo duress is the shit. If there is a new portent then theres a probably gonna be a new duress so we can safely except this as real. I will be testing neo duress in my sui white list and see how it goes. Also i will be playing a playset because its not dead against goblins and good against aggro. the only problem i see with this is that in sui white the life loss might be pushing it over the top. Oh and eternal darkness, Noone runs fethces sunff outs and confidants in the same deck. if your running fetches that means your splashing for a color and you wont be using Snuff out as your removal.

@tea cup: Umm the removal is definately enough. 4 main removal plus 3-4 jittes im pretty sure is the way to go in this deck. Also about the sideboard. I think the real strength in this dedck is that all its hate are game winning cards. Planar void ends games against breakfast, thresh, and ichorid. E plauge ends games against gobs. Dystopia ends games against thresh (double the hate for the best deck in the format, this makes it good currently in addition to all the other broken things the deck has going for it) and a bunch of white/green decks. Cabal therapy by itself doesnt end games but it contributes to the win. If neo duress is real then duress will go in cabal therapies place.


Still no confirmation on that Neo-Duress. If it happens, than I definitely agree with the SB. I hope it happens, because it will just simplify things so much. I f necessary, we might have to kidnap one of the card designers and ransom him in exchange for the card. You can never be too careful:tongue:

Hmmm, 4 dedicated removal seems too little a number at first glance, but then again things have been working fine for me with 5. A few others things I was wondering about, why only 3 Gators and is Hyppie still needed if this neo-duress comes about? Myself, I am beginning to love the bargain that is Dark Confidant but Hyppie seems to pricey. With the possible advent of this new duress, there will be plenty of better options to disrupt hands imo. Yeah, they don't beat for 2 or fly, but no way do I want to pay two extra mana for it.

[technogeek5000]

I am currently trying out a list on MWS that uses shade in place of hippie and ill see how it goes.

Edit: Fuck that. Hippie is just so much disruption all of the time. he is great with jittes and is un-freaking-believable turn one off of a ritual. Way to many times shade is a vanilla 2/1 in listrs wit confidant, especially in my list, that its ability isnt relevant enough forfor its inclusion. Time to go back and test neo duress again.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I am currently trying out a list on MWS that uses shade in place of hippie and ill see how it goes.

Edit: Fuck that. Hippie is just so much disruption all of the time. he is great with jittes and is un-freaking-believable turn one off of a ritual. Way to many times shade is a vanilla 2/1 in listrs wit confidant, especially in my list, that its ability isnt relevant enough forfor its inclusion. Time to go back and test neo duress again.

Ha ha ha, alright alright. I see why you would want to use Hippie over the shade in your list. However, how was he when you casted him turn 3? Was he still a prized play? It is pretty self-evident of his turn one ridiculousness, however turn 3 and 4 doesn't seem so amazing to me. Well, I am a bit prejudiced because I am not using sinkhole/wasteland and to compensate I use Cabal Therapy. With the new duress and duress, that Therapy WILL be ripping hands like no one's business. Yet, Hippie is both a creature and disruption spell. That is pretty huge.

Anyway, what did you feel were the weakest cards in your build? Did everything in your deck pull its weight and now its just a matter of numbers? Or did you feel something significant could be added to improve the deck? America wants answers!

[ChiliConCarnage]

Serious Suicide Black players should consider testing Contagion as it's main removal spell (other than Jitte). Though one might think that the card disadvantage is too much for the deck to handle, consider that discard spells as well as Dark Ritual are fairly useless after turns 1-3.

Here is a list that I am toying with.

16 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Sacromancy
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Order of the Ebon Hand

4 Duress
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Contagion

Choices:

Sacromancy: The deck has 12 one-drops (sixteen if you count D. Rit). Sacromancy's drawback is minimal and it combos quite well with Negator (if Negator takes damage, you can sac the enchantment first to negate the token's drawback).

Nantuko Shade: This guy has gotten some flak lately, especially on this thread. Say what you will, but it is difficult to win the game quickly with 2-power creatures. Though Rotting Giant is comparable in terms of throwing down some hard beats, he trades with Mongoose and worst of all, he gets pwn3d by graveyard removal (which is extremely prevalent these days to combat breakfast, dredge, threshold, etc.). Though Shade is a bit slower versus goblins since you typically want to play with him 1-2 mana open (or one mana + D. Rit), he is still a house versus other decks if you uptap with him seasoned.

Dark Confidant: Bob is business. Drawing 1-2 extra cards in this deck is a sure path to victory. Drawing Contagion and losing 5 life blows, but hey, the odds of it are fairly low.

Phyrexian Negator: Negator is perhaps the closest thing to a meta-slot the deck currently possesses, as he is excellent against combo, but quite bad against goblins. His value varies greatly depending on which exact decks we are comparing him against... observe:

1) Belcher: Negator off ritual is a solid start. He can often hit for ten and will go all the way if backed up by discard. He turns to crap if they hit an Empty the Warrens, but he will get in at least a few times.

2) Breakfast: It's not like they block with their combo pieces anyway. Roll over them and win.

3) Solidarity: They will scramble for a chain of vapor to bounce him. Discard their Cunning Wish and win.

4) Dredge: Negator is actually not stupendous against Dredge, as they can produce quite a few blockers without really meaning to (imps, nacros), and once they begin putting out zombies, it gets worse. Nonetheless, if your sideboard pieces hit as they should, Negator is the best clock in your deck to throw at them.

5) Threshold (white): Negator is far beefier than a non-threshold mongoose, making him a good choice. You will have to neutralize Tarmogoyf via Contagion and/or sideboard graveyard hate to reliably send him into the red zone. Negator getting swords'ed really isn't the end of the world... five life is another Tarmogoyf hit or more food for Bob.

6) Threshold (red): SIDE HIM OUT oh God.

7) Goblins: Generally speaking, Negator is pretty bad against them, as they will have ample blockers, Gempalm, Sharpshooter, and SGC to deal direct damage to him. He is generally a good choice to side out.

In conclusion-- in an aggro-heavy field, Negator becomes worse and should generally be replaced with Stromgald Crusader/Knight. Hypnotic Specter is often thought of as the 'other' 3cc creature in suicide black, but in most situations he is too slow and not beefy enough to get the job done.

Order of the Ebon Hand: Depending on which Fallen Empires art you choose when you put this guy in your deck, he will work very differently... eh, kidding. Long posts need jokes, right? I find him generally superior to Stromgald Crusader, as first strike is rather devastating when tangling with other creatures in the Red Zone. The Crusader flies, sure, but that is rarely relevant, as the threat of First Strike is a form of evasion all its own. Finally, First Strike + Jitte = really screwd up combat math that is in your favor.

Want to 'hatred' your opponents for 4 more? Wrath your opponents creatures before damage? Pump your other dudes so they kill larger opposing creatures before normal damage? All of this and more are possible via the magic that is Order of the Ebon Hand + Jitte. This guy shares the same disadvantage that his Coldsnap cousin does, however.. one toughness. He will get pwned by Mogg Fanatic every time. Stromglad Crusader may have been a better choice due to the prevalence of anti-combo Serra-Avenger centric fish decks around the time of GP-Colombus, but Order is back where he should be these days.

Duress: Don't make me explain this.

Cabal Therapy: This card requires either a previous Duress to ensure domination or a strong intuition. Look at the board, think about what your opponent is likely to have. Think about what can screw you. Teaching someone how to play Cabal Therapy is pretty tough. The short answer is... be a genius. P.S. Keep this in versus Dredge, as being able to sacrifice one of your own guys to eat bridges and (hopefully) knock out bounce during games 2-3 is godly.

Hymn to Tourach: Savage. Like getting suplex'ed through a table into a swimming pool full of lions. The other day a guy played Null Profusion with two cards in hand. Hymning him next turn won me the game.

Umezawa's Jitte: This card is a beating. Play it early, play if often. Play it off ritual. Combined with the next card, creature combat is your specialty.

Contagion: A 5-star card against other creature decks. I cannot express how many times this card has completely screwed my opponents. The best part is that it is still somewhat under the radar, meaning that people won't necessarily expect it. Kill two goblins. Neuter a Tarmogoyf or Serra Avenger. Kill two Breakfast pieces. Dominate. DOMINATE. Hell, kill your own dude to remove an opposing Bridge from Below! Good gravy! If you don't believe me, try it. You play enough black spells that are fairly useless late game that the pitch won't be a burden.. I promise.

Coming soon, a sideboard with full explanations and bizarre choices.

[technogeek5000]

umm wow. Welcome to the sui black thread. I consider myself one of the serious sui black players and i believe that your contaigon theory has been outdated since the arrival of tarmogoyf. Contaigon is only good against goblins currently and 2 more things that makes it worse is that it is still situational against goblins and goblins is on a serious decline. In your list you run ebon hand over carnophage. This is a mistake i can assure you. I cant realy talk right now as i have a report to finish for school so ill continue my analysis on your claims later. we all know about all the card choices and what they do so you didnt have to right all that.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Ha ha ha, I really enjoyed the style of your post Chili. Some interesting ideas, but I favor Snuff Out over Contagion by far. I will definitely think about it though. About the whole Shade vs. Hippie thing, I am pretty convinced it is solely determined by which deck you are playing. Suicide White has some freakin extra meat with Jotun Grunt. I think that changes everything, and makes Shade obsolete. Grunt justs wins hand down, and Hippie will find a perfect home as you are not relying on him for damage. Mono Black on the other hand, has nothing close to as good as grunt and I think it needs either Shade or Rotting for extra muscle. You definitely need 6-8 big beaters and a mono black list without shade (sometimes big sometimes a joke) or Rotting, is just not happening. Hippie is not going to bring home the win. Jotun Grunt being overwhelming better than everything else besides Gator, and destroying both Ichorid and Goyf at the same time is insane. So, what I am getting at is, will the mana stability and non-wasteable lands keep Sui Black from being way too outdated? Because, I feel like I am forced to play options overwhelming inferior to the Grunt if I stay mono. Is there any other creature we are missing? Order of the Ebon Hands might be the answer like Chili suggested. But, it seems doomed to the Shade syndrome. Meh, I want Wizards to whip us up a new monster.

[ChiliConCarnage]

I agree that goblins is on the decline 'on the whole' as that term applies to such an open, relatively undocumented format such as legacy. In my meta, however, it is still fairly common.

I completely disagree with your analysis of Snuff Out v. Contagion. Contagion is not situational versus goblins. It kills them. That is the situation. Paying 4 life for Snuff Out might be acceptable in more 'pure' aggro builds, but combined with sacromancy (and carnophage by your suggestion) and Bob, it hurts far, far too much. Paying 4 life to kill a Tarmogoyf is nifty, but god help you if it gets countered.

Carnophage is slightly superior to Order of the Ebon hand versus goblins, but quite vanilla versus everything else.

Jotun Grunt is a very powerful card. It would be the first white card I splashed if that were the case.

[technogeek5000]

Ok we have already gone over the removal suite. Snuff out is by far the best option mono black has to offer. The life loss from snuff out isnt that bad because it kills a creautre that could have potentially dealt 4 or more dmaage to you.Contaigon is just as bad if it gets countered BTW And its situationl against everything else in the format. the two main topics that are being discussed in this thread currently are are.

#1 Neo duress
#2 The white splash

[LordEvilTeaCup]

the two main topics that are being discussed in this thread currently are are.

#1 Neo duress
#2 The white splash

Speaking of which, I do believe America asked you some questions concerning your experiences with Sui White. Are you going to let America down!??!!

1. In your opinion, what cards struck you as being the weakest in your deck?

2. Do you feel Sui White has the potential for being a tier 1.5 or tier 1 deck?

3. Do you feel that your list is already pretty optimized or that there are still some things to smooth out?

[technogeek5000]

Speaking of which, I do believe America asked you some questions concerning your experiences with Sui White. Are you going to let America down!??!!

1. In your opinion, what cards struck you as being the weakest in your deck?

2. Do you feel Sui White has the potential for being a tier 1.5 or tier 1 deck?

3. Do you feel that your list is already pretty optimized or that there are still some things to smooth out?

1. Umm the weakest card? Well theres realy 2 of them. 1 is carnophage... although this guy is an important card for keeping the mana curve more smooth and less focused on the 2cc range. The second 1 is duress because it doesnt hit the relevant cards against aggro control. Both of these cards are crucial 1 drops but duress is most likely getting replaced by neo duress once lorwyn comes out.

2. I remember saying that i believed that my old sui black list when tuned to the meta game, was a strong tier 1.5 choice. My Sui white list is tuned better then my sui black list for the current metagame so i wold say that it is in between tier 1 and tier 1.5. If wizards were to print a better replacement for carnophages spot then i believe that this deck could be tier 1.

3. Most of the deck is tuned perfectly. The only thing that i could see that could be changed is the creature base. But even my creaure base is still stronger then mono black lists.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

3. Most of the deck is tuned perfectly. The only thing that i could see that could be changed is the creature base. But even my creaure base is still stronger then mono black lists.

Hmmm, ok I think this is a good starting point then. Sui White's creature base.

Legion of Doom:
4 Dark confidant
4 Hippie
4 carnophage
3 Jotun grunt
3 Negator

The 4 Confidant and having Grunt as a 3 of seems perfect. Hippie and Negator or both optimal creatures for Sui White, but I guess we could talk numbers. Would having a 4th Negator produce positive results? I am not sure myself, because there is no sarcomancy and UGr is a popular splash for thresh. Having 6 beat sticks seems pretty consistent, but I think it still could be argued to add a 4th. 4 Hippies or 3, is there any room for discussion here? 3 would decrease the chances of a turn one ritual into Hippie, but it would add room for a 4th Gator. There is still kinda a Carno versus Sarc debate, but I think Carno wins no prob especially with only 3 Gators. Could the number of Carnos be reduced? Or would that mean it is just time to take him out? I think Carno belongs in the deck hands down.

[technogeek5000]

Hmmm, ok I think this is a good starting point then. Sui White's creature base.

Legion of Doom:
4 Dark confidant
4 Hippie
4 carnophage
3 Jotun grunt
3 Negator

The 4 Confidant and having Grunt as a 3 of seems perfect. Hippie and Negator or both optimal creatures for Sui White, but I guess we could talk numbers. Would having a 4th Negator produce positive results? I am not sure myself, because there is no sarcomancy and UGr is a popular splash for thresh. Having 6 beat sticks seems pretty consistent, but I think it still could be argued to add a 4th. 4 Hippies or 3, is there any room for discussion here? 3 would decrease the chances of a turn one ritual into Hippie, but it would add room for a 4th Gator. There is still kinda a Carno versus Sarc debate, but I think Carno wins no prob especially with only 3 Gators. Could the number of Carnos be reduced? Or would that mean it is just time to take him out? I think Carno belongs in the deck hands down.

I think currently that 4 hippies and 3 gators is the correct number do to the fact that Ugr thresh is still the most popular (i dont think sarcomancy realy matters here). What i meant about the stuff i said about carnophage is that im pretty much waiting on wizards to print a Neo carnophage. He is important as a 4 of to keep our mana curve healthy.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I think currently that 4 hippies and 3 gators is the correct number do to the fact that Ugr thresh is still the most popular (i dont think sarcomancy realy matters here). What i meant about the stuff i said about carnophage is that im pretty much waiting on wizards to print a Neo carnophage. He is important as a 4 of to keep our mana curve healthy.

I don't foresee Wizards making a better one drop for black than Carnophage anytime soon.... Hmmm than again, they are going to print Thoughtseize.

[technogeek5000]

Ok im currently trying to find the correct card to take out so i can run 4 thoughtsieze. Im done testing it and the results are nice. The card actually nets you life in the long run alot of the time because it will take out a creature that could potentialy harm you. For reference, here is my current pre-lorwyn list.

Land:
4 scrubland
4 wasteland
7 fetches
6 swamps

Creatures:
4 Hippie
4 carnophage
4 dark confidant
3 Grunt
3 gator

Disruption:
4 Hymn
4 Stp
3 Duress
3 sinkhole
3 Jitte

Acceleration:
4 dark ritual

Sideboard:
4 E plauges
4 Planar voids
3 Cabal therapy
3 dystopia
1 duress

Im gonna make the following changes.

Maindeck:
-3 duress
-1 (blank)
+4 Thoughtsieze

Sideboard:
-3 cabal therapy
+3 Duress

I wasnt so confidant about taking out hymn to tourachafter some testing. Hymn is just ridiculous against every single deck besides thresh and ichorid. I want to keep my creature count at 18. Any suggestions.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Ok im currently trying to find the correct card to take out so i can run 4 thoughtseize. Im done testing it and the results are nice. The card actually nets you life in the long run alot of the time because it will take out a creature that could potentialy harm you. For reference, here is my current pre-lorwyn list.

Land:
4 scrubland
4 wasteland
7 fetches
6 swamps

Creatures:
4 Hippie
4 carnophage
4 dark confidant
3 Grunt
3 gator

Disruption:
4 Hymn
4 Stp
3 Duress
3 sinkhole
3 Jitte

Acceleration:
4 dark ritual

Sideboard:
4 E plauges
4 Planar voids
3 Cabal therapy
3 dystopia
1 duress

Im gonna make the following changes.

Maindeck:
-3 duress
-1 (blank)
+4 Thoughtsieze

Sideboard:
-3 cabal therapy
+3 Duress

I wasnt so confidant about taking out hymn to tourachafter some testing. Hymn is just ridiculous against every single deck besides thresh and ichorid. I want to keep my creature count at 18. Any suggestions.

I think you could easily take out one land and not sweat it. That seems like the least painful thing to remove. Everything else seems just right.

With the advent of Thoughtseize, it might be time to redo the mono list as well. The biggest issue now imo, is what will the new Sui Black's removal suite look like? Thoughtseize can easily act like preemptive removal. Also, I think the 8 zombie plan should be changed. I suggest running a 7 zombie plan of 4 x Sarcomancy and 3 x Rotting Giants. Rotting Giant is the closest Sui Black is going to get to Grunt and it has synergy with Sarc, which has synergy with Negator. Goblins are coming back, but 4 x Sarc and snuff should be more than enough to handle lackey. Besides, if we go first thoughtseize is just as good as an answer as anything. Plus, against other decks our first turn is going to be very different with Thoughtseize.

Back to the removal suite, I have been loving 3 x Snuff Out with 2 x Smother. My removal as it stands would be 3 x Jitte, 3 x Snuff, 2x Smother and now add 4x Thoughtseize. I think this is pretty solid and Tarmogofy worries pretty much go away. However, there just might not be room for some of those removal elements...

So, an optimal list might look like...

Legion of Doom

4x Sarcomancy
4x Negator
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hippie
3x Rotting Giant

Disruption

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Sinkhole

Removal

3x Jitte
3x Snuff Out

Mana

16x Swamp
4x Wasteland
4x Dark Ritual

I would like to fit the 2x smothers, but it is tough to find the room.

[Galroth]

Alot has been said about optimal lists lately on this thread. My opinion is that while we all know what cards are our options, I've yet to see a list that is optimal. In part this is because all of us play in different metagames; and a few slots are dedicated to our metagames. For my sake, if posting a list, would you mind pointing out which slots you consider to be meta dependant.

Not trying to target anyone in particular with all that; but I really think we're cutting off potential avenues for development much too quickly. To my mind, alot of topics have not been explored to any conclusory satisfaction.

--
Contagion - Why was this dismissed so quickly? I'm inclined to agree that Snuff Out is generally the best removal (outside of Jitte) that one can run. But Contagion might well be better in a meta heavy with weenie aggro. Atleast state why one is better than the other. A brief analysis: Both Contagion and Snuff Out are aimed at increases in tempo, in contrast to Smother. The key difference is whether the life and the ability to bury a creature is better than a card lost and the counters. It's hard to judge whether the counters or the ability to bury is more important. Howeve I would add that I'd usually want to take a loss of 4 life rather than have to discard a card within the first few turns. In the later stages, the card-disadvantage may not be are important if you're running Confidant or have excess Rituals or what not in hand. However, I think the removal is more important in the first few turns of the game rather than later. So Snuff Out would be my choice to main-deck as well.

Rotting Giant - Practically the epitome of a meta slot. Is graveyard hate really that needed in the maindeck for game 1? In my meta it isn't, and a couple of planar voids are sufficient for games 2 and 3. I'd much rather have Shade, or even Pump Knights.

Carnophage and Sarcomancy - I'm still not convinced that running the 2/2's is anywhere close to optimal. I'd like to see any strong detailed arguments for them. More importantly, why would you run just 1 set and not the other. If you're going to chase a heavy game of aggro in the early turns then you'd want to optimize that by running both. If you're not pursuing this plan then you're probably looking at disrupting them the first couple of turns so maindecking both Duress and Thoughseize would probably be the plan. These decisions may be more tied to ones mana-curve than the particulars of your sui-decks strategy. It could also be simply and issue of space. Personally, my best performing sui-list runs Chrome Mox and tries to skip the 1-drops entirely.

Dark Confidant - Card Advantage versus Tempo... this question isn't likely to ever be put to rest. In a deck like Red Death it's a bit more clear that you're stepping up the aggro plan and the Tempo is a better choice.

In general the Creature base on whole needs to be justified. There are a number of fantastic options which people seem to haphazardly throw together without explanation and simply call it optimal. Don't just say the creatures damn good. Tell me why you chose Hyptnotic Specter instead of Nantuko Shade or Rotting Giant. Was it a metagame call? Was it for a more stable mana-curve?

Hmmm I think I'll cut myself off there. Excuse me for venting. I wanted to express my frustrations toward this much endeared thread. I think we are quite far in many respects from an optimized list, especially in comparison to lists as optimized as Threshold of Goblins, or any combo list. I also think we need to leave more room for innovation, and give more thought to new (and old) ideas if we hope to see sui-black become the competitive deck many of us think it should be.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Great post Galroth. I hope the list I posted did not come across as close minded. I put the small disclaimer of a optimal list MIGHT look like.... Still, you brought up some great issues. As for myself, I have not resolved a lot of the questions you posted and answers are hard to find. There are so many good options out there that this whole thing requires many informed people chiming in on the issues. Unfortunately, this thread is not as robust as it once was. There are maybe 3 of us who consistently post for the last 2 weeks and this may lead to stagnation.

Techno's Sui White list seems solid and performed well, so I borrowed a few elements from it to compose the new post Thoughtseize list. I picked Rotting Giant, because it has synergy with Sarcomancy which has synergy with Negator, which has synergy with Rotting. You can attack and then not remove a card from the gy to stop opponent's bridges. There is also ample feed for the Giant and I feel he is the most consistent as far as beatsticks go compared to Shade and the pump knights. As for Hippie, I think you either run 4 TS 3/4 Duress and no Hippie, or 4 TS 4 Hippie. Hippie could easily be replaced imo if you MD TS and Duress. That would drastically change the creature base.

As far as metagame goes, I pretty much ignore it. I don't have a good meta around me, so I just meta against Thresh and Gobs. It is a flaw yes, but I don't really care lol. There are a swarm of ideas and thoughts surrounding so many decisions, many of which lead into circles. After a while, a man feels pretty unmotivated. How much more effective would the end result be if all the questions were to be magically answered? Well, I am not sure that will ever happen but I will wait and maybe actually see it come to pass.

[Baumeister]

Galroth: You're right it's hard to justify what is best for what deck. It also depends on what build you're running, Weenie vs. a more controlling build. I can go over what I think are good creatures and why.

Rotting Giant/Wretched Anurid: Giant is becoming very playable now with all the graveyard based decks running around. Wretched Anurid isn't as meta-dependent, but if your deck dumps a lot of cards into the graveyard, then it's definately runnable.

Nantuko Shade: In my deck, he's the MVP. Of course, I play Anwar's build and I have the mana to spend to boost him to huge levels every turn. In the weenie build, not so much, but he's still a power-house and can take down Tarmogoyf.

Phyrexian Negator: 5/5 for 3... yeah , I'll play him. With the rise in UGr *****, he's more of a liability, but, he's huge and Dark Ritual into Negator first turn makes it hard for the opponent to recover. Contrary to popular belief, he is good against Goblins.

Hypnotic Specter: He flies and makes your opponent discard cards. This deck is all about disruption and he is recurring disruption. He's good, but a lot of people don't run him because he costs 3 for a 2/2.

Dark Confidant: Hmm.... Just like you said, card selection vs. tempo. It's really up to the player and the decks are built a little differently if you choose to include him or not include him. He's very player dependent - I don't like to run him.

Zombies: Weenie build fodder. 2/2 for 1 is nothing to scoff at, but they become less useful in the late game. Meh...

Smother: Apparently this one's controversial. 2 mana to kill nearly every powerful creature in the format... I play 4.

Vendetta/Snuff Out/Diaboic Edict/etc.: Other removal. Use what you want, but watch out for too much life loss.

Duress/Thoughtseize and Hymn: These are kind of nesessary. Combo is huge nnow and these cards are why Suicide has good game against them. This suite just got a lot better against everything because of Thoughtsieze.

Sinkhole: Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Yes. This card is good. Very good. The original designer of this deck in Vintage said this deck should not be built without Sinkhole, but you can stretch it. This allows for good game against Control and coupled with cheap, fast beats, Sinkhole can shut down a lot of decks.

Jitte: Yeah, it's good. Also depends on the build you're using. It's much better in the weenie build because it can come online much faster, but it is definately an amazing SB card against aggro at the very least.

Really, there is no "optimal" build of Suicide Black. There are cards that should be included but this deck is so versitile in that it can be adapted to almost any metagame. That's why it sees a good amount of play no matter how the format shifts. That's just the way it is. Just playtest to find which version you like better, adjust it to your meta, and learn how to play it really well. To be honest, Anwar's build has the most even amount of game against the field. It's playable against aggro, aggro-control, and control, the player just needs to know how to play his deck to beat all of these. The Weenie build has better game against aggresive decks while sacrificing a little against aggro-control. The reason ***** is so good is because it has general answers to everything. Suicide needs to do the same thing to become competitive. Thoughtseize is a step in the right direction, but decks that extend themselves to beat aggro or control will have worse game against the other parts of the field.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Really, there is no "optimal" build of Suicide Black. There are cards that should be included but this deck is so versitile in that it can be adapted to almost any metagame. That's why it sees a good amount of play no matter how the format shifts. That's just the way it is. Just playtest to find which version you like better, adjust it to your meta, and learn how to play it really well. To be honest, Anwar's build has the most even amount of game against the field. It's playable against aggro, aggro-control, and control, the player just needs to know how to play his deck to beat all of these. The Weenie build has better game against aggresive decks while sacrificing a little against aggro-control. The reason ***** is so good is because it has general answers to everything. Suicide needs to do the same thing to become competitive. Thoughtseize is a step in the right direction, but decks that extend themselves to beat aggro or control will have worse game against the other parts of the field.

You make a good point, with the comparison of Sui and Thresh, but its a tough fix. Splashing colors helps a lot, but Black disruption is more situational than Blue.

For kicks, I think I am going to make a Sui: This time in Blue!.dec list. It probably wouldn't be too viable but it would be fun to throw out a list. The dynamic duo would be Shadowmage Infiltrator and Hippie. Double the card advantage and evasiveness! I guess I would have to throw Daze in there too. It doesn't really fix any problems but come on, its the only color no one made a splash with! Dude, Sui in Blue will so be tier 1!!!!!!

[technogeek5000]

Well if your going to be playing daze then i would suggest playing the full 8 2/2 zombies because you cant tap out for them turn 1 and control them through daze. I would also run a playset of dark confidants and 3/4 snuff outs for more tempo. Sui blue might work, but since there isnt alot of big creatures (this deck cant utilize sea drake) in blue i wouldnt push the splash to far.

Also i think its time for me to bring up withered wretch one more time. Is he worth it with the rise of graveyard dependant decks. Could he find a place in a thresh/ichy/breakfast flooded meta.

Discuss

[Goaswerfraiejen]

OK, hold up one second--just one. How does an increase in graveyard-based decks make Rotting Giant any better? How is Rotting Giant graveyard hate? Rotting Giant says "Whenever Rotting Giant attacks or blocks, sacrifice it unless you remove a card in your graveyard from the game." Removing stuff in your own graveyard may perhaps occasionally (rarely) help versus Tarmogoyf, but that's hardly hate.

Carry on. :tongue:

[Baumeister]

Haha.... Um, yeah.... apparently I can't read. I thought Giant was waaaaaaay better than it actually is. Hey.... for Suicide Blue, you would need to add way more islands to make daze even remotely playable. Then we might as well add Force of Will and add white for Swords and Vindicate. Wait, that's just UWb Fish.... hmm. It's called suicide black for a reason guys.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Haha.... Um, yeah.... apparently I can't read. I thought Giant was waaaaaaay better than it actually is. Hey.... for Suicide Blue, you would need to add way more islands to make daze even remotely playable. Then we might as well add Force of Will and add white for Swords and Vindicate. Wait, that's just UWb Fish.... hmm. It's called suicide black for a reason guys.

Ha ha ha, nah it was just a fun thing. Nothing to take serious.

Anyway, no one really critiqued the Thoughtseize list I put up there. It was put up there to start discussion. At least make fun of it or something :)

[Baumeister]

Back to the removal suite, I have been loving 3 x Snuff Out with 2 x Smother. My removal as it stands would be 3 x Jitte, 3 x Snuff, 2x Smother and now add 4x Thoughtseize. I think this is pretty solid and Tarmogofy worries pretty much go away. However, there just might not be room for some of those removal elements...

So, an optimal list might look like...

Legion of Doom

4x Sarcomancy
4x Negator
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hippie
3x Rotting Giant

Disruption

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Sinkhole

Removal

3x Jitte
3x Snuff Out

Mana

16x Swamp
4x Wasteland
4x Dark Ritual

I would like to fit the 2x smothers, but it is tough to find the room.

Okay, let's see... Here's what I would do. You've already taken out carnophage and the chance that you're going to draw one of those zombies on turn one is a lot lower. I'd say drop the Sarcomancies completely. Get Nantuko Shade in there - it's so freaking good, especially since you've upped your curve slightly. The main decks you need to beat right now are combo, control and thresh. Nantuko beats for the win, man. Other than that, yeah it looks pretty good. It's generic enough to be good against the field if you're good with the deck. It looks kind of like the deck I posted a little while back. Here's my suggestion:

Lands (21)
17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Creatures (18)
3 Dark Confidant
3 Rotting Giant (sketchy.... it concerns me that it might not attack)
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter

Other Spells (21)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Smother/Snuff Out
2 Jitte

Really, I'd rather drop the Dark Confidants and add more removal. Whatever feels better for you. The Zombies are getting worse and worse with the decline in aggro and you still have winnable game against aggro with a better game against combo, control, and *****. Just my 2 cents.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Okay, let's see... Here's what I would do. You've already taken out carnophage and the chance that you're going to draw one of those zombies on turn one is a lot lower. I'd say drop the Sarcomancies completely. Get Nantuko Shade in there - it's so freaking good, especially since you've upped your curve slightly. The main decks you need to beat right now are combo, control and thresh. Nantuko beats for the win, man. Other than that, yeah it looks pretty good. It's generic enough to be good against the field if you're good with the deck. It looks kind of like the deck I posted a little while back. Here's my suggestion:

Lands (21)
17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Creatures (18)
3 Dark Confidant
3 Rotting Giant (sketchy.... it concerns me that it might not attack)
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter

Other Spells (21)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Smother/Snuff Out
2 Jitte

Really, I'd rather drop the Dark Confidants and add more removal. Whatever feels better for you. The Zombies are getting worse and worse with the decline in aggro and you still have winnable game against aggro with a better game against combo, control, and *****. Just my 2 cents.

There seems a lot of controversy with the cheap 1cc zombies, and I can see why. Yes they are weak mid to late game, but I like having 4 of them to increase my chances of having a solid first turn drop. Perhaps, if you are playing chrome mox things become different. However, I feel the sarcomancies with their synergy with Gator and efficiency still have a place. Still, like I said the main point of them to me is guarantee a solid first turn play even without the Ritual. Oh, I forget to mention that Goblins are looking to make a come back. It might be good to have a few options for first turn lackey. In my build has about 7-12 depending on who goes first.

You know, I always wondered about Nantuko Shade alongside wastelands. I know it probably is not major, but he definitely worked better in the McPoor version. However, I agree the Shade is not an option to overlook. He is not consistent however, and I dare say Rotting Giant is far more consistent. That being said, his inconsistency could still translate in him single-handedly winning games. Also, I think he as an interesting interaction with Dark Confidant. On one hand, Bob draws you more lands and Rits to pump up the Shade. On the other, you may want to play the cards you get instead of pumping up the Shade. Where as Rotting will be a 3/3, Shade is a wild card. So, I feel pretty conflicted. I will say this though, I feel the deck only needs at most 8 beat sticks. In my experience, that is all you would ever need along with your creatures with powerful effects to bring home the win. I really think its either one or the other here.

I think someone tried to do it before, but maybe we could once again list the solid creature options. Maybe together, we could hatch out a pretty solid creature base. Also, I doubt this to be the case, but are we missing any creature.

[Baumeister]

I think someone tried to do it before, but maybe we could once again list the solid creature options. Maybe together, we could hatch out a pretty solid creature base. Also, I doubt this to be the case, but are we missing any creature.

If you want to know everything about this deck, go to the first page of the Red Death thread and click on the link to the Suicide Black primer. It's a Vintage deck, but the creator goes into explicit detail on every card run in the deck and why and some that aren't in the deck that could be run. That primer, old as it may be, is an amazing source of information. I also listed some of the powerhouse creatures available now further up this page. As for Shade... I love that guy. I wouldn't play this deck without him. He's not inconsistent, he just provides options that may make him seem inconsistent. It can sometimes be difficult to know whether to pump and attack and or play a spell from your hand. Just playtest a lot. Options win games.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

If you want to know everything about this deck, go to the first page of the Red Death thread and click on the link to the Suicide Black primer. It's a Vintage deck, but the creator goes into explicit detail on every card run in the deck and why and some that aren't in the deck that could be run. That primer, old as it may be, is an amazing source of information. I also listed some of the powerhouse creatures available now further up this page. As for Shade... I love that guy. I wouldn't play this deck without him. He's not inconsistent, he just provides options that may make him seem inconsistent. It can sometimes be difficult to know whether to pump and attack and or play a spell from your hand. Just playtest a lot. Options win games.

Ha ha ha, yeah I read all of that. It is good stuff. The Shade is awesome and having options is good, but there WILL be too many turns were he is a vanilla 2/1. I play tested a lot, and found that it is indeed a tough call. Without Dark Confidant online, and when you run out of gas he is just awesome. With Dark Confidant online, the correct decision will most likely be drop that Negator you just drew with him. Or play and equip that jitte you just drew. When playing deck with the Shade, I would do mind games like swing guessing no one is going to throw a blocker in front of him. I would then proceed to not pump him up and play my Gator or whatever second main phase. Yes there were plenty of times he was a house, but I believe gone is the era when the Shade was an auto-include. That is just not that case anymore. He is quite debatable and perhaps not optimal anymore. I do think an optimal list could be made and we have to stop saying stuff like metagame dependent. The meta in large tournies is fairly consistent and a descent guess could be made. Lets build towards that. We should all just play test each others lists against the important decks. Screw the random jank that shows up at local tournies. If we give each other's build a try, I think we will get closer to realizing the best list we possibly can.

[nitewolf9]

Ha ha ha, yeah I read all of that. It is good stuff. The Shade is awesome and having options is good, but there WILL be too many turns were he is a vanilla 2/1. I play tested a lot, and found that it is indeed a tough call. Without Dark Confidant online, and when you run out of gas he is just awesome. With Dark Confidant online, the correct decision will most likely be drop that Negator you just drew with him. Or play and equip that jitte you just drew. When playing deck with the Shade, I would do mind games like swing guessing no one is going to throw a blocker in front of him. I would then proceed to not pump him up and play my Gator or whatever second main phase. Yes there were plenty of times he was a house, but I believe gone is the era when the Shade was an auto-include. That is just not that case anymore. He is quite debatable and perhaps not optimal anymore. I do think an optimal list could be made and we have to stop saying stuff like metagame dependent. The meta in large tournies is fairly consistent and a descent guess could be made. Lets build towards that. We should all just play test each others lists against the important decks. Screw the random jank that shows up at local tournies. If we give each other's build a try, I think we will get closer to realizing the best list we possibly can.

Shade has always been and still is amazing. He is the only creature in the deck that can hope to swing through tarmogoyf and he gives the deck some late game power in case your opponent lives through the initial onslaught. He turns extra rituals into giant growths and can actually end the game quickly.
Phyrexian negator is becoming worse and worse nowadays because of tarmogoyf's existence (before, against threshold you could race them and plow through 1/1 geese and bears before their creatures outclassed yours in combat...not the case anymore). Don't get me wrong, he is still a house against control and combo, but shade is the only creature you have that can fight and win on his own. I think you will find shade's true value when you try to play without him.

[technogeek5000]

Umm try the white splash. Anything against thresh that a grunt cant get, gets stped. Grunt single handedly wins games against thresh, lowering tarmogoyfs power to a level that can be dealt with any creature in your deck, and removing threshold so geese become 1/1s again.

Also for a reasons to run 1/1 zombies.

1cc cost:
dark rit
duress/thoughtsieze
zombies*

2cc cost:
dark confidant
jitte
shade
grunt*
hymn
sink
rotting giant*

* If you run them

The curve is pretty bad in this deck so zombies are there to give you more decent turn 1 plays.

[Baumeister]

Umm try the white splash.

Meh... The whole reason I want to play Suicide Black is for consistency and power. I don't want to extend my mana-base at all to the random Wasteland and the possibility of color-screw. You'll probably say that it's very consistant, and I'm sure it is, but I was around when this archetype first became really popular (thank you Dave Price) and the mentality was to stay monocolored for the most speed. (Go to Google and find the Art of Beatdown by Dave Price from Duelist - good reads) Besides, there's nothing like beating the shit out of a deck without using Tarmogoyf, Brainstorm, Fetchlands, and Force of Will. Sure, you could add Grunt (and even Tarmogoyf!) alongside Negator and Shade and you'd be running the most powerful creatures in the format. But you've also opened yourself to the possibility of colorscrew and Wasteland, and to me, it's not worth it. I'm sure your deck is amazing, but I like my mono-black cause it works damn good :)

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I have been thinking about the whole being open to wasteland thing, and I am not sure how much it matters. I mean, Threshold the tier 1 deck's mana base is extremely vulnerable to wasteland. Yet, it is still the premier deck of legacy. Of course this does not necessarily translate into Splash > Mono, but I think it is a point nonetheless.

I agree with pretty much with all the points being brought up about the Shade. In most of my builds I have utilized him and found him awesome. Still, I have tried the deck without the shade and it still... worked. He could still be the optimal choice, but I think we still have too look at his negative points. He should not be an auto-include, but a pick that has lots of testing behind it. I like the Rotting guy a lot, but I only like him with Sarcomancy. Without it, I do feel the Shade is better. However, I just ask people try to creature base with Thoughtseize. I actually didn't get to test out to much, and was hoping someone would give it a whirl. Thanks in advance!

[Baumeister]

I have been thinking about the whole being open to wasteland thing, and I am not sure how much it matters. I mean, Threshold the tier 1 deck's mana base is extremely vulnerable to wasteland. Yet, it is still the premier deck of legacy. Of course this does not necessarily translate into Splash > Mono, but I think it is a point nonetheless.

The reason Suicide can beat ***** is because it can exploit it's weak mana base. Besides, you have to go through a lot more pain to get the colors you want if you splash. The reason Thresh can do it is because 1) It has a massively efficient cantrip base 2) It has counters to back everything it does up and 3) It can stall enough with its control elements to find what it needs. Suicide Black has none of these besides a light control suite through discard and pinpoint removal. Splashing only makes it harder for the deck to run smoothly because it's trying to find it's splashed color and even a little setback in mana developement can turn off part of the deck. Hence, that's how you beat *****. Consistency is key. I'm not saying a splash is a bad idea, I'm just not going to do it.

[technogeek5000]

I might kick myself for saying it, but the 4 of im cutting in my deck is thoughtsieze. My sui white build just has so much life loss with the fetches, carnophages, and confidant that a playset of thoughtsieze just kind of puts the suicide aspect a little to far. Don't get me wrong, thoughtsieze is a incredible card and definately surpasses duress, but you never actually want to see multiples of this card unlike duress.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

The reason Suicide can beat ***** is because it can exploit it's weak mana base. Besides, you have to go through a lot more pain to get the colors you want if you splash. The reason Thresh can do it is because 1) It has a massively efficient cantrip base 2) It has counters to back everything it does up and 3) It can stall enough with its control elements to find what it needs. Suicide Black has none of these besides a light control suite through discard and pinpoint removal. Splashing only makes it harder for the deck to run smoothly because it's trying to find it's splashed color and even a little setback in mana developement can turn off part of the deck. Hence, that's how you beat *****. Consistency is key. I'm not saying a splash is a bad idea, I'm just not going to do it.

Hmmm, what you are saying is definitely valid. However, Sui Black is only tier 1.5 at BEST, and more likely tier 2. Maybe Thoughtseize will change that, but the main reason right now for looking for an optimal splash is too change its status. Still, I too like the consistency of the Mono build and how safe its mana base is. I think though, its time to make a change in direction. Withered Wretch has been brought up multiple times in this thread. I wonder if it is time to main board it. It helps in a few match-ups, and it hurts in others. We lose to Ichorid and the Wretch would be a big boon there. Our combo match up is already pretty descent, and this would greatly help against Thresh. However, Goblins with the Black Splash will be saying hello and Wretch will just be a bear.

Woah Techno, is there anyway to mitigate the life loss? Losing Thoughtseize will be pretty big.

[technogeek5000]

Hmmm, what you are saying is definitely valid. However, Sui Black is only tier 1.5 at BEST, and more likely tier 2. Maybe Thoughtseize will change that, but the main reason right now for looking for an optimal splash is too change its status. Still, I too like the consistency of the Mono build and how safe its mana base is. I think though, its time to make a change in direction. Withered Wretch has been brought up multiple times in this thread. I wonder if it is time to main board it. It helps in a few match-ups, and it hurts in others. We lose to Ichorid and the Wretch would be a big boon there. Our combo match up is already pretty descent, and this would greatly help against Thresh. However, Goblins with the Black Splash will be saying hello and Wretch will just be a bear.

Woah Techno, is there anyway to mitigate the life loss? Losing Thoughtseize will be pretty big.

I worded that poorly im sorry. I was looking for a playest to cut a card from so i could run a playest of thoughtsieze then decided to jut run 3 instead of four. Im still going to use them.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I worded that poorly im sorry. I was looking for a playest to cut a card from so i could run a playest of thoughtsieze then decided to jut run 3 instead of four. Im still going to use them.

Hmmm, would running 3 TS and a Duress as a singleton work.

[technogeek5000]

The reason Suicide can beat ***** is because it can exploit it's weak mana base. Besides, you have to go through a lot more pain to get the colors you want if you splash. The reason Thresh can do it is because 1) It has a massively efficient cantrip base 2) It has counters to back everything it does up and 3) It can stall enough with its control elements to find what it needs. Suicide Black has none of these besides a light control suite through discard and pinpoint removal. Splashing only makes it harder for the deck to run smoothly because it's trying to find it's splashed color and even a little setback in mana developement can turn off part of the deck. Hence, that's how you beat *****. Consistency is key. I'm not saying a splash is a bad idea, I'm just not going to do it.

Umm yah i just read this and you couldnt be farther from the truth. The reason this deck beats thresh is the massive amounts of hate it brings in against them. At the 4x U sea at hadley, i was bringing in 7 cards postboard in addition to the 3 grunts i ran maindeck, i never actually won a game because my opponent got mana screwed... and most of the time he would get 4-6 lands onto the table.

Oh and stop being stubborn. I ran only 10 white surces with none the above things thresh has going for it and I never had problems with my mana all day. Remember, thresh runs 3 colors... not 2, so it needs all those counters and cantrips to support its mana base. If you run the splash all you need is fetches and probably confidants.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Could you get away with not playing the sinkholes? The answer is probably no and will stay that way. I am just holding onto small hope that I won't have to shell out the dough. I am already trying to get thoughtseize....

I was thinking of a more hand disrupty now build without the LD. Well I have always been trying that but, maybe it could almost work with TS.... Some pros would be more dedicated beatstick action, due to Hippie not being needed. The Hand disruption would be far more monstrous than the traditional build. Meh, I don't seeing it evening up with the LD version. Any thoughts?

[Wallace]

Could you get away with not playing the sinkholes? The answer is probably no and will stay that way. I am just holding onto small hope that I won't have to shell out the dough. I am already trying to get thoughtseize....

I was thinking of a more hand disrupty now build without the LD. Well I have always been trying that but, maybe it could almost work with TS.... Some pros would be more dedicated beatstick action, due to Hippie not being needed. The Hand disruption would be far more monstrous than the traditional build. Meh, I don't seeing it evening up with the LD version. Any thoughts?

Your worried abot shelling out $$ for Sinkholes?? Check this out...

http://toys.search.ebay.com/thoughtseize_Magic-the-Gathering_W0QQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfclZ3QQfromZR2QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsabfmtsZ1QQsacatZ19107QQsaobfmtsZinsifQQsbrsrtZd

[technogeek5000]

theres no way they will be that much if you go to a good shop. I predict thoughtsiezes being around 5 each. 70$ for playest of a brand new card of the newest set that isnt tarmogoyf is unrealistic.

Edit: Tea cup, i hate to say it but the land disruption realy makes this deck alot stronger then just plain discard. Its especially important if your splashing white.

[Cait_Sith]

If you splash white, why not just run Deadguy?

Sinkhole has always been the card that underwhelmed me more than anything else. It is great along side Wasteland and Port, but mediocre otherwise.

[technogeek5000]

Umm sui with the white splash and deadguy are are 2 entirely different decks. Deadguy is a control deck and Sui white is a aggro controldeck. We dont push the splash so we can utilize the brokeness that is dark rit. We run more creatures and stronger creauters in grunt and negator. Sure deadguy has tombstalker, but he comes down later in the game then the creatures we run. We also have given up the crap that is diabolic edict for stronger removal in snuff out, jitte, and smother. Also we run sinkhole in place of extirpate which i believe is a much stronger card. I hate to say it, but I believe that deadguy ale is no longer a viable deck.

We run 3-4 wasteland... Sinkhole has always appeared as one of the stronger cards in the deck.

[Shriekmaw]

Your worried abot shelling out $$ for Sinkholes?? Check this out...

http://toys.search.ebay.com/thoughtseize_Magic-the-Gathering_W0QQcatrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQfclZ3QQfromZR2QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsabfmtsZ1QQsacatZ19107QQsaobfmtsZinsifQQsbrsrtZd


I believe the power behind Thoughtseize is pretty good, and the loss of two life is not that relevant at all. The prices may go down for these, but if anything I can see them going up, b/c this card will see a lot of play in both Legacy and Extended.

This could possible be the best Legacy card in Lorwyn.

[DragoFireheart]

I believe the power behind Thoughtseize is pretty good, and the loss of two life is not that relevant at all. The prices may go down for these, but if anything I can see them going up, b/c this card will see a lot of play in both Legacy and Extended.

This could possible be the best Legacy card in Lorwyn.

While I agree that this card will say lots of play in Extended and Legacy [maybe Vintage as well], I'm going to have to disagree with Thoughtsize being the best Legacy card: I would suggest that Ponder would be a better card.

As far as black is concered you are right though.

Can we start to see more of Thoughtsize and less of Cabal Therapy?

[Wallace]

While I agree that this card will say lots of play in Extended and Legacy [maybe Vintage as well], I'm going to have to disagree with Thoughtsize being the best Legacy card: I would suggest that Ponder would be a better card.

As far as black is concered you are right though.

Can we start to see more of Thoughtsize and less of Cabal Therapy?

Cabal Therapy will still have its place, I think. It can be cast twice and can hit multiple cards. The true power for Therapy is the ability to hit creatures and be cast twice. Now I think it will just be used because of its flashback ability. Aluren abuses Therapy and it will still be the discard spell of choice in Aluren.

[Baumeister]

Umm yah i just read this and you couldnt be farther from the truth. The reason this deck beats thresh is the massive amounts of hate it brings in against them. At the 4x U sea at hadley, i was bringing in 7 cards postboard in addition to the 3 grunts i ran maindeck, i never actually won a game because my opponent got mana screwed... and most of the time he would get 4-6 lands onto the table.

Oh and stop being stubborn. I ran only 10 white surces with none the above things thresh has going for it and I never had problems with my mana all day. Remember, thresh runs 3 colors... not 2, so it needs all those counters and cantrips to support its mana base. If you run the splash all you need is fetches and probably confidants.

Well, my deck has a better ***** matchup than your deck. I wonder why that is? Oh, yeah. I don't play the one casting cost zombies and I run more disruption than you do. This deck was originally designed to wreck the mana base of multi-colored decks and shut down parts of their deck. It does that exactly, and it does it very well.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Well, my deck has a better ***** matchup than your deck. I wonder why that is? Oh, yeah. I don't play the one casting cost zombies and I run more disruption than you do. This deck was originally designed to wreck the mana base of multi-colored decks and shut down parts of their deck. It does that exactly, and it does it very well.

Wow, I am sure you tested out Techno's deck before jumping to those conclusions, right buddy? Hey, it could be possible that your deck has a better Thresh matchup, but I seriously doubt you ever seriously tried the White splash. I find a lot of your posts pretty intelligent and insightful, but this one is coming off a tad arrogant unless you can say that with extensive testing of your build and his. If you did test it out, I apologize.

I have been testing out my deck pretty extensively the last few days. I think I am going to stick with the 4 Sarcomancy 3 Rotting Giant game plan for now. I still prefer Negator as my beatstick and both of the zombies seriously get along with him so freakin' well. Shade is a strong choice, but I am no longer feeling him. Gator and Shade are anti-synergy. I know it is not all about how they play together, but I always been a sucker for beautiful flow. I think the synergy of those three beat out the Shade. It still is such a tough call and I could be wrong, but right now I think my creature base is working together like butter. I will keep it, and I just ask for it to be given a chance.

[Baumeister]

Yeah I did test. Sorry if I blew up. I respect Techno's build, it's just different from the way I would want to play Suicide. Let's just agree to disagree so it doesn't clog this thread.

TeaCup: If you're still hurtin' for some sinkholes, you could always use Blight (haha, no don't. Even though it's 25 times less expensive, it's like 3 times more likely to be countered/destroyed).

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Yeah I did test. Sorry if I blew up. I respect Techno's build, it's just different from the way I would want to play Suicide. Let's just agree to disagree so it doesn't clog this thread.

TeaCup: If you're still hurtin' for some sinkholes, you could always use Blight (haha, no don't. Even though it's 25 times less expensive, it's like 3 times more likely to be countered/destroyed).

Heh, I dunno those Blight's are a bargain buy:tongue: I will get myself some sinkholes pretty soon. It is tough to buy Dark Confidants, Sinkholes, Wasteland, and Thoughtseizes in a span of a few weeks to complete my deck..... I will be a good little teacup and shell out the cash:frown:

[Baumeister]

You can get used sinkholes at Star City Games for $15, or you do it EBay. Otherwise, pucker up your butt and shell out the $80 - $100 for a new, minty playset, haha. You could also try and find people who have them that are willing to trade or sell, that's usually way cheaper. If you do it in steps, it's not as bad. Thoughtseize could either go way up, or come down, so it's a gamble. Meh, there's no easy way to spend that much money. Stupid college...

[LordEvilTeaCup]

You can get used sinkholes at Star City Games for $15, or you do it EBay. Otherwise, pucker up your butt and shell out the $80 - $100 for a new, minty playset, haha. You could also try and find people who have them that are willing to trade or sell, that's usually way cheaper. If you do it in steps, it's not as bad. Thoughtseize could either go way up, or come down, so it's a gamble. Meh, there's no easy way to spend that much money. Stupid college...

I am partial to black bordered cards too.....Stupid college indeed. I think TS could get pretty expensive. Extirpate got pretty pricey, and TS is superior....

[Anarky87]

I'd never spend more than $15-$16 a piece for Sinkholes in nm condition. The only time I did was when I was picking up my Beta ones, and that didn't even come to $100 for the set. Just scout ebay a lot. I've picked up a set for $60 + s/h, and I picked up a set for $50. But honestly, I wouldn't pay more than that on something that isn't blue or that doesn't produce blue.

[DeepfriedDynamite]

I own most of the cards for this deck so i might throw it together. Here is the list i was thinking of using.

4 duress
4 hymn
4 shade
4 hippie
4 Carnophage
3 sarcomancy
3 negator
3 rotting giant
3 snuff out
3 smother
4 dark ritual
18 Swamp
3 BLANK

4 plauge
4 planar void
3 dystopia
4 BLANK

I dont any wastes or any sinkholes so i decided not to include them. Also i dont know what to put in the last few slots.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Not to bad Dynamite. Did you hear of the new discard spell coming out soon? Its called Thoughtseize and it is better than Duress mainboard. Just sideboard the duresses to finish up your sideboard. I just love how that one card brings this whole deck together.

I am going to start to use Smothers over Snuff out for now. Thoughtseize does change the "suicide" curve a lot, and running them both with confidant is getting difficult. Thoughtseize will be acting as preemptive removal anyway, so Snuff Outs cheating on mana function is not as important as it once was.

Hmmm, it sounds like you have some ebay skills Anarky. I think I am going to have to do a little ebay sniping:cool:

[DeepfriedDynamite]

Thanks. I looked up thoughtsieze on Salvation and it looks realy good. Ill move 4 duress to the sb and put ill put ion 4 thoughtsieze when the set comes out. That stilkl leaves 3 open spots though. What should i put in for them.

[Baumeister]

Thanks. I looked up thoughtsieze on Salvation and it looks realy good. Ill move 4 duress to the sb and put ill put ion 4 thoughtsieze when the set comes out. That stilkl leaves 3 open spots though. What should i put in for them.

That's easy

+1 Sarcomancy
+1 Phyrexian Negator
+1 Smother

[Ataxrxes]

I have this Sui Black deck I have been tinkering with for years. I'll give the list then explain some of the choices. What I really want is help making it better with a minimal cash outlay.

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Terror
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Rain of Tears

4 Negator
4 Sarcomancy
4 Hyppie
4 Shade

4 Wasteland
16 Swamp

The Rains are only in there because I don't have Sinkholes and I'm not willing to spend the cash for them right now. I think I might be picking up a few Dark Confidants tomorrow, although I'm not sure they should go in. Should I put in Carnophages instead of the Rains? Why do you guys like smother and Snuff out over Terror? Is it just because of the alternate cost for Snuff Out which leaves your mana free for other things? Should I put in Confidant for the Rains? I want to get my deck better but like I said, I don't want to spend a whole lot of cash on it. I'd be willing to buy a FEW cards here and there so any suggestions will be appreciated.

[technogeek5000]

I have this Sui Black deck I have been tinkering with for years. I'll give the list then explain some of the choices. What I really want is help making it better with a minimal cash outlay.

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Terror
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Rain of Tears

4 Negator
4 Sarcomancy
4 Hyppie
4 Shade

4 Wasteland
16 Swamp

The Rains are only in there because I don't have Sinkholes and I'm not willing to spend the cash for them right now. I think I might be picking up a few Dark Confidants tomorrow, although I'm not sure they should go in. Should I put in Carnophages instead of the Rains? Why do you guys like smother and Snuff out over Terror? Is it just because of the alternate cost for Snuff Out which leaves your mana free for other things? Should I put in Confidant for the Rains? I want to get my deck better but like I said, I don't want to spend a whole lot of cash on it. I'd be willing to buy a FEW cards here and there so any suggestions will be appreciated.

I would take out the edicts and terrors for 4 smothers and 3 snuff outs. To answer your question: yes snuff out is great removal because you can kill a creature and play a disruption/creature spell at the same time... netting you some needed tempo. The 4 life is almost always insignificant. Smother is better then terror against the current meta because it hits nearly every worth while creature that is run in the format, and hits black and artifact creatures. I dont know if i like 4 negators so i would think of taking 1 of those out You can probably take out cursed scroll and use that last negators spot to put in confidants/carnophage/rotting giant. If i were you i would spend the cash for the confidants instead of the sinkholes.

Two more things. until you get sinkholes, take out the rains. Also since you only run 16 swamps and you run shade you might want to add another swamp (dont take out a wasteland, its ok if you run 21 lands... I do)

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I would take out the edicts and terrors for 4 smothers and 3 snuff outs. To answer your question: yes snuff out is great removal because you can kill a creature and play a disruption/creature spell at the same time... netting you some needed tempo. The 4 life is almost always insignificant. Smother is better then terror against the current meta because it hits nearly every worth while creature that is run in the format, and hits black and artifact creatures. I dont know if i like 4 negators so i would think of taking 1 of those out You can probably take out cursed scroll and use that last negators spot to put in confidants/carnophage/rotting giant. If i were you i would spend the cash for the confidants instead of the sinkholes.

Two more things. until you get sinkholes, take out the rains. Also since you only run 16 swamps and you run shade you might want to add another swamp (dont take out a wasteland, its ok if you run 21 lands... I do)

I think mono Sui needs the 4 Gators. There is no Jotun Grun option, and Nantuko Shade and Rotting Giant both have issues. The Gator is far more consistent. Also, I am hoping that there will be more UGb Thresh builds in the future. Still, even with out that I think its acceptable to play the 4 Gators even with a lot of UGr thresh. Especially in the builds that pack all the must burn creatures like Hippie and Bob, along with the disruption suite and sarcomancy support, the Gator should be playable in 4's.

[technogeek5000]

I think that thoughtsieze will make UGB a more popular deck. And for the negators, in my old mono lists i always found 3 negators enough muscle (i didnt run shade or giant) but i guess that was before tarmogoyf. i think this deck can aford to run smaller creatures because it runs more removal then most decks.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I think that thoughtsieze will make UGB a more popular deck. And for the negators, in my old mono lists i always found 3 negators enough muscle (i didnt run shade or giant) but i guess that was before tarmogoyf. i think this deck can aford to run smaller creatures because it runs more removal then most decks.

Hmmm, I always feel lonely without a crazy alien looking dude on my side of the field but 3 might be right. I like 4, because I don't mind multiples and they have such a board presence. I love to cast my Negator one turn, than next turn lay down another Gator and sac pretty much everything for the win. I think attachment to cards cause blindness though, and maybe that is effecting my judgment here. I will try out the -1 Gator +1 Creature Removal plan and see what happens. It would be nice to hear more tourney results and reports concerning Sui Black, especially after Lorwyn. Unfortunately, it might be a few months before I can add anything relevant as far as tourney results go:frown:.

Edit: I have been rethinking my creature base. I think overall Gator Sarco Rotting for the win, but if Red Thresh remains the most popular.... When I sideboard, my options are looking a bit grim as far as beat sticks go. The Sarc and something else will be SB out for the Planar Voids and Dystopia. Its no sweat to take out the Sarcs, but then what else. I am sure someone mentioned this so forgive me overlooking the point, anyway Planar Void and Rotting Giant have poor synergy.... So I should take out the Rotting giants out right? Well then, what about the Gators who might be too much of a liability. Well, I guess game 2 I would probably have to stick with the Gators without Sarco support, because the Giant might be a whole lotta nothing... I might go to Wretched Annurid, but he is such a liability at times. I still am not too big of a fan of Shade with Confidant, so if I were to put him in Bob would have to go. I am on the Bob side of the fence and feel replacing him with Shade would be a mistake. This problem, is only really a big deal against Ugr thresh. Any suggestions?

[technogeek5000]

Im going to the TMLO both days with this deck and probably going to 4x volcanic island at hadley. Oh and also my dad has started to play mono black sui in tournaments so he will be going to both as well... so needless to say i will have more tournament results

There is a third party webisite that runs a MWS league that im in and i wrote of a primer for the suicide archetype as a whole. I think it is time to stop sepparting this deck so i included all forms of sui in my write-up (red death, mono black, Suicide white, and green death). Alot of the article is just cut and paste from some stuff i could find on here, but i thought i would just post the link here anyways: http://forums.atlantisgames-online.com/index.php?showtopic=57&st=0&#last

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Im going to the TMLO both days with this deck and probably going to 4x volcanic island at hadley. Oh and also my dad has started to play mono black sui in tournaments so he will be going to both as well... so needless to say i will have more tournament results

There is a third party webisite that runs a MWS league that im in and i wrote of a primer for the suicide archetype as a whole. I think it is time to stop sepparting this deck so i included all forms of sui in my write-up (red death, mono black, Suicide white, and green death). Alot of the article is just cut and paste from some stuff i could find on here, but i thought i would just post the link here anyways: http://forums.atlantisgames-online.com/index.php?showtopic=57&st=0&#last

Its a great primer Techno. As for the MWS league, I would love to give it a try myself. The only problem, MWS is pretty unintuitive. Is there a guide that actually helps play with the system smoothly? The one game I played with MWS, was rather awkward...

There is one thing in your primer that puzzled me, why do you have Carnophage over Sarcomancy in the mono build? I understand for Sui White, but I feel the Sarcomancy helps out the Gator so much and has so much more meaning here. The deck seems to have enough Goyf answers to have to have worry about pumping him up with the enchantment you sac to the Gator or duressed. Also, your Rotting Giant can toss the enchantment outta the Gy. I guess someone can bolt your little token and dude to make you eat 1 life per turn, but that seems to me as an unlikely and unreasonable play unless the guy is playing dedicated burn.

[GiantGrowth]

alright, its been awhile since I've taken a look at this forum and after reading i have a question. Is bob a staple now? the last time i was on any kind of sui black thread it was heated debate over draw vs. agressiveness, has that been pretty much decided?

also on a side note, I'm fairly new with this entire archetype and I was wondering is there any type of strategy thread over sui black dealing with: what to sac when gator gets damaged depending on whats on field/in hand ect, what to play on early turns(that sinkhole or that rotting giant?) and just the basic decision-making process with this deck

[FakeSpam]

I think the whole archetype needs to kind of be reinvented. I know there is a good monoblack deck out there, but the whole "suicide" playstyle just doesn't work.

Negator is a 5/5 for 3. Who will face down 4/5s for 2 with no drawback.

The presence of Daze and/or spell snare in half the decks out there just shut down the broken starts the deck needs to be a force.

And the best combo deck in the format is practically immune to duress. And combo is the one matchup a monoblack aggro deck should beat.

---

I've been working on ways around this. The one with the most potential so far is adding green for Tarmogoyf (obviously), Rancor, and Berserk. Rancor is huge with the creatures in the deck, turning hypnotic specter into a game ender, makes nantuko shade un-chumpable, and makes your tarmogoyf beat their tarmogoyf. Plus, it sacs nicely to Negator. Finally, Berserk is a bit iffy. It does well as subbing for a crappy removal spell in a pinch. It's like the green Devour in Shadow. It's absolutely amazing at ending a game quickly. It turns a 6 turn game into a 4 turn game. That's huge.


As far as keeping things monoblack... It just gets harder and harder these days. I'm still working on that, but it's almost impossible without becoming a slower more midrange control/aggro deck. And then you are better off playing the rock.

[Clark Kant]

Thanks to Goyf, there really is no good reason to stay monoblack.

I think any of these alternatives are good directions for sui black to explore...

Doran Siege: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7166

Idle Hand: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7165

And the deck Fakespam is talking about... Green Death: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6681

[technogeek5000]

I think the whole archetype needs to kind of be reinvented. I know there is a good monoblack deck out there, but the whole "suicide" playstyle just doesn't work.

Negator is a 5/5 for 3. Who will face down 4/5s for 2 with no drawback.

The presence of Daze and/or spell snare in half the decks out there just shut down the broken starts the deck needs to be a force.

And the best combo deck in the format is practically immune to duress. And combo is the one matchup a monoblack aggro deck should beat.

---

I've been working on ways around this. The one with the most potential so far is adding green for Tarmogoyf (obviously), Rancor, and Berserk. Also, running Braids. Rancor is huge with the creatures in the deck, turning hypnotic specter into a game ender, makes nantuko shade un-chumpable, and makes your tarmogoyf beat their tarmogoyf. Plus, it sacs nicely to Braids (and negator.) Finally, Berserk is a bit iffy. It does well as subbing for a crappy removal spell in a pinch. It's like the green Devour in Shadow. It's absolutely amazing at ending a game quickly. It turns a 6 turn game into a 4 turn game. That's huge.


As far as keeping things monoblack... It just gets harder and harder these days. I'm still working on that, but it's almost impossible without becoming a slower more midrange control/aggro deck. And then you are better off playing the rock.


Thanks to Goyf, there really is no good reason to stay monoblack.

I think any of these alternatives are good directions for sui black to explore...

Doran Siege: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7166

Idle Hand: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7165

And the deck Fakespam is talking about... Green Death: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6681

Umm the white splash is basically the most accepted splash so far. Ive topped 8 with it in the first tournament i played it in. Here is my list:


Suicide white
Land:
4 scrubland
4 wasteland
7 fetches
6 swamps

Creatures:
4 Hippie
4 carnophage
4 dark confidant
3 Grunt
3 gator

Disruption:
4 Hymn
4 Stp
3 Duress
3 sinkhole
3 Jitte

Acceleration:
4 dark ritual

Sideboard:
4 E plauges
4 Planar voids
3 Cabal therapy
3 dystopia
1 duress

[Sigar]

Mono Black (post Lorwyn):

4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Hymn

4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out

4 Dark Confidant
4 Oona's Prowler
3 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade

3 Jitte
3 Chrome Mox

4 Wasteland
16 Swamp

SB:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Pithing Needle

[LordEvilTeaCup]

And the best combo deck in the format is practically immune to duress. And combo is the one matchup a monoblack aggro deck should beat.


I want to make a more robust post later, but for now I wanted to point out that the advent of Thoughtseize will at least fix the problem quoted above.

Interesting list Sigar. I am not sure Oona's Prowlers belong but who knows. It felt refreshing seeing a new creature in someone's legion of doom at the very least. With all the discard, maybe the opp would take the 3 dmg in the face but it lets the opponent choose and not you. That is usually bad.

Anyway, I am not so sure its time to totally reinvent Sui Black yet. I think the best splashes and changes are those which are the most simple. This deck is pretty powerful and justs needs something to push it over the top. I think Sui White looks the best so far, due to its simplicity in just adding STP and Grunt. STP answered the Black's problem of having removal that is either limited in its scope or too costly. Grunt answers this decks worst match (Ichorid), and legacy's premier aggro control deck Thresh. Those two cards I think are all thats needed to change things. Green can answer the creature problem, but not the removal. Red can provide much needed reach, removal that lost much of its effectiveness due to Tarm, and does not help with the creatures at all. So, basically you would have to attempt a 3 color build or just play a simple tweak found in the white version.

Still, can anyone weigh the significance of having a non-wasteable mana base? I mean, could you quantify in any way how much that increases a deck's viability in the current meta? I am very curious about this, because that is the only thing a mono deck has over splashes these days.

[technogeek5000]

Anyway, I am not so sure its time to totally reinvent Sui Black yet. I think the best splashes and changes are those which are the most simple. This deck is pretty powerful and justs needs something to push it over the top. I think Sui White looks the best so far, due to its simplicity in just adding STP and Grunt. STP answered the Black's problem of having removal that is either limited in its scope or too costly. Grunt answers this decks worst match (Ichorid), and legacy's premier aggro control deck Thresh. Those two cards I think are all thats needed to change things. Green can answer the creature problem, but not the removal. Red can provide much needed reach, removal that lost much of its effectiveness due to Tarm, and does not help with the creatures at all. So, basically you would have to attempt a 3 color build or just play a simple tweak found in the white version.


I cannot agree with this statement any more. The white splash does improve the deck where it is needed the most. If you plan to play this deck then you should try the white splash if you want to make you deck better. The white splash gives the deck the tools i needs to compete in the metagame.

Oh and sigar, i dont think oona's prowler is a bad card to run. I would take them out for negators or zombies.

[Galroth]

Still, can anyone weigh the significance of having a non-wasteable mana base? I mean, could you quantify in any way how much that increases a deck's viability in the current meta? I am very curious about this, because that is the only thing a mono deck has over splashes these days.
Not the only thing... just one of the most important. I also choose to stay monoblack for other reasons as well. Two the come into mind immediately are: 1) For the added consistency of never being color-screwed; 2) For the increased probability of having a hand which can better abuse your acceleration, Dark Ritual and Chrome Mox.

There are lots of other minor reasons, but again they are rarely considered. For instance, the additional life loss from fetches; or negating any hate directed at another color and it's best cards.

@Fakespam: As an aside, the suicide archtype hasn't been "suicide" since Hatred basically became un-usable. A small quibble, who cares... we all understand what you're saying. I think I disagree with your assessment that the deck needs to be re-invented. Personally I think it just needs to be refined and run by good players. The current meta is much better for suicide black then when Goblins was prominent. Red decks like to rain all hell on black-aggro.

My opinion regarding your points and the current meta: black has more answers to Tarmogoyf that most colors. Red took a serious hit here. Thoughtseize gave black another combo hate tool, add it to Duress and there are very few decks with a better all around combo match-up then sui-black. Finally, are Daze and Spell Snare really important considerations? Yes Threshold is probably the most prevalent and likely best deck out there, but are these two spells really the ones that hamper suicide black? If they are consistently stopping your broken starts then I might suggest its player error. You're rarely going to see first turn Hyppie or Negator out of me. More likely I'll Duress or Thoughseize (I run both) to see what they have, and insure that my second turn Hyppie or Negator aren't going to meet any problems. Blindly playing creatures when there are too few for comfort in suicide black is foolish. If they Daze a duress... fine, I probably would have grabbed it anyways.

@ Techno - I still don't understand why Carnophage. I would think Sarcomancy is a better for previously stated reasons. I would probably even consider Isamaru, Savannah Lions, Mother of Runes, or even possibly Icatian Javelineers (got to love them) over Carnophage. It puts a little more stress on the white-splash, but how many times are you lacking for turn 1 plains, or you need the Carnophage so you won't take manaburn off of Dark Ritual. Mother of Runes in particular looks like it could do a great deal for the deck. Protected Negator...?! Hot. It adds some real late game power the deck can struggle might struggle with.

@ Sigar - I'm with Techno... scratch Oona's for Negators. If your skeptical, test it out and you'll quickly find why every build runs them. Simply put they'll win you more games than they'll lose. Out of curiosity, the rest of your list I think is really solid, so why did you opt for Oona's? Otherwise I would just assume you were some noob.

@ Ataxrxes - Smother and Terror are fairly comparable. Basically Smother covers more important creatures than Terror does. I actually haven't layed it out and counted, but I think that's the general consensus. Snuff Out versus Smother is a seperate debate. To try to summarize it, most people choose Snuff Out because removal is more important in the early stages for this deck, and Snuff Out doesn't cost you tempo where Smother will. Also, in the early stages of the game life loss is of less consequence, so the price is negligible and will likely be gained back from the removal of a key creature.

@ GiantGrowth - I think bob is a bit more accepted than he previously was. If I had to speculate why this is, I would guess that it's because sui-black has taken a bit more or an aggro-control route and focused less on the quick beatdown that it had previously. More than anything, I believe it depends on your build, even then there would be alot of disagreement on what justifies his inclusion. For instance I'm quite surprised anybody running all 8 1cc zombies is including him!?! Shouldn't that build focus more on early beats and tempo, and be even more concerned about the life loss?

[Sigar]

Oona's Prowler carries a Jitte just fine, and 3 on the head a turn for 2 mana is just great. Yes he can discard a card to prevent that, but that's kind of the whole strategy, to rape his entire hand. Win/win situation!

Negator is crap in my meta. Call me noob if you want to, but test the Prowler first!

[Wallace]

Oona's Prowler carries a Jitte just fine, and 3 on the head a turn for 2 mana is just great. Yes he can discard a card to prevent that, but that's kind of the whole strategy, to rape his entire hand. Win/win situation!

Negator is crap in my meta. Call me noob if you want to, but test the Prowler first!

I really like the Prowler, I think it will be a great addition to Sui black. I would run it over Giant before I dropped the Negator though. Neg. can be a first turn house, if your meta game does not allow you to play Neg. then you might want to think about playing a diffrent deck.

[Sigar]

Negator is not the heart and soul of Sui Black; discard spells are. Without them, the deck would just be a bunch of creatures trying to beat Gro decks (not gonna happen), and a bye to combo players.

[Baumeister]

Negator is not the heart and soul of Sui Black; discard spells are. Without them, the deck would just be a bunch of creatures trying to beat Gro decks (not gonna happen), and a bye to combo players.

And discard spells aren't going to win the game by themselves either. The reason Suicide Black works is because it utilizes disruption followed by massive beats to keep the opponent off balance. Phyrexian Negator may not be the definative Suicide Black creature, but it's damn well as close as we have right now. Negator is a powerhouse in this deck and he is well worth the price tag that comes along with his huge body.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Not the only thing... just one of the most important. I also choose to stay monoblack for other reasons as well. Two the come into mind immediately are: 1) For the added consistency of never being color-screwed; 2) For the increased probability of having a hand which can better abuse your acceleration, Dark Ritual and Chrome Mox.

There are lots of other minor reasons, but again they are rarely considered. For instance, the additional life loss from fetches; or negating any hate directed at another color and it's best cards.


@ Techno - I still don't understand why Carnophage. I would think Sarcomancy is a better for previously stated reasons. I would probably even consider Isamaru, Savannah Lions, Mother of Runes, or even possibly Icatian Javelineers (got to love them) over Carnophage. It puts a little more stress on the white-splash, but how many times are you lacking for turn 1 plains, or you need the Carnophage so you won't take manaburn off of Dark Ritual. Mother of Runes in particular looks like it could do a great deal for the deck. Protected Negator...?! Hot. It adds some real late game power the deck can struggle might struggle with.



Mother of Runes too me seems the most interesting out of those. I think Sarcomancy> Lions, Isamaru, and Carno without a doubt. However, between Mom and Sarco there exists more debate. It will probably come down to how effective the Goblins will be post-Lorwyn. Mom is really only a good turn one answer to lackey if you go first. Hmmm, then again wouldn't a chump block from Mom be a fair trade too against Lackey? Anyway, I like Mom better overall due to her overall usefulness. She is effective mid and late game, and I don't think you would sacrifice all that much tempo either. Unless you get a jitte online really early, the sarc is not going to be causing a big enough tempo swing to worry about replacing him. I say Mom should be tested.

[Nihil Credo]

Mom is an aggro-control card. It neither pressures or disrupts the opponent, unless you stick a Jitte on it.

If you put Mom in Suicide Black, you start caring about protecting your threats, and the deck will eventually evolve into B/W Aggro-control weenies, probably playing things like Spectral Lynx. This isn't a bad thing per se, but you should choose what deck design guidelines to stick to.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Mom is an aggro-control card. It neither pressures or disrupts the opponent, unless you stick a Jitte on it.

If you put Mom in Suicide Black, you start caring about protecting your threats, and the deck will eventually evolve into B/W Aggro-control weenies, probably playing things like Spectral Lynx. This isn't a bad thing per se, but you should choose what deck design guidelines to stick to.

Hmmm, I am a bit confused by this statement. This deck is an aggro-control deck, so wouldn't an aggro-control card fit with the scheme? I am just asking for clarification, because I think this is just a mere mistype. Anyway, although I am not sure that Mom would work out, I don't think any other change would have to be made to include her. In this case, we are just looking for the best 1cc creature in this deck. She is not meant to be the backbone and this wouldn't necessarily mean we would be over concerned about protecting threats, but rather maybe she would have solid synergy and help the already existing game plan. The real basic question here is, would replacing the 1cc zombie slot with Mom improve the deck? I think she could, even if it is just to add some evasion to your beats and stop a STP or bolt from hitting your threats.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Yes, Mother of Runes is excellent--plus, she blocks Tarmogoyf like there's no tomorrow. I believe that Nihil's point is merely that, once you splash white for her, so many new avenues are opened up for the deck that it really stops being SuiBlack. While that's not necessarily a bad thing, as he says, it is a different deck. Kind of like how splashing red for burn is a different deck, now.

[zulander]

Suicide Black is more AGGRO control than it is aggro CONTROL. Mom's are more aggro CONTROL, imho if you want to play b/w aggro CONTROL then play bw confidant. I think it's a solid deck in this metagame cause of the LD/stp/discard it presents. StP > tarmogoyf.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Suicide Black is more AGGRO control than it is aggro CONTROL. Mom's are more aggro CONTROL, imho if you want to play b/w aggro CONTROL then play bw confidant. I think it's a solid deck in this metagame cause of the LD/stp/discard it presents. StP > tarmogoyf.

I think I understand where you are coming from, but I just don't think replacing Carnophage with Mom will lead this deck down a different road. The only concern I see is getting the mana for it first turn and that will probably not be a big deal.

Carnophage is a 2/2 with a drawback. He is great in the first turn and second turn maybe. You might get to swing with him once. Of course this changes if you get him to carry a jitte very early, but we all know that doesn't happen that often. Then well... he is a chump blocker. The inclusion of Carno/Sarco was more for mana curve purposes and a solid first turn play. Mom helps both. Speaking of tempo, I think I would rather turn 3 swing with an unblockable Gator (now with no drawback) or Grunt. Gator and Grunt are your beat sticks. Bob and Shade are card advantage, and the other slot I think could easily go to Mom. She helps the already existing game plan, and is pretty much good very early mid and onward. Yeah, maybe turn 1 and 2 the other options will be better and that is maybe. Even turn 2 Mom could be ridiculous, because you will feel a whole lot better dropping your ritualed out Hyppie or Gator turn 2. I am going in circles, but any tempo you may have lost is gained back and then some turn 3.

Mom may not be the correct choice, but I just don't feel the examples provided to be striking enough.

[technogeek5000]

In regards to mother

Verdict: No
Carnophage is not only a great turn 1 play but he is also one of the only ways to eat up that extra mana from rit. This is a big deal because when i was trying my list without him, way to often i would use 2 of my mana and taking 1 burn. When you have a zombie to cast alongside bob or disruption piece you would be suprised how much better off you are. Mom is realy superflous in this deck, because most of the time you dont realy care if your opponent is blocking your creatures. Id rather have a 2/2 zombie then a unblockable gator, because either way the game is gonna end soon. Im not saying that it shouldnt be tested, but mom kind of puts stress on the white splash making rit weaker and most of the time it is not nessescary. The only real blocker that this deck will ever realy take notice of is goyf and that is taken care of by stp and grunt.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

In regards to mother

Verdict: No
Carnophage is not only a great turn 1 play but he is also one of the only ways to eat up that extra mana from rit. This is a big deal because when i was trying my list without him, way to often i would use 2 of my mana and taking 1 burn. When you have a zombie to cast alongside bob or disruption piece you would be suprised how much better off you are. Mom is realy superflous in this deck, because most of the time you dont realy care if your opponent is blocking your creatures. Id rather have a 2/2 zombie then a unblockable gator, because either way the game is gonna end soon. Im not saying that it shouldnt be tested, but mom kind of puts stress on the white splash making rit weaker and most of the time it is not nessescary. The only real blocker that this deck will ever realy take notice of is goyf and that is taken care of by stp and grunt.

This does indeed fit in the realm of striking examples. However, why Carnophage over Sarcomancy? Sarco is not as good in Sui White as he is in Sui Black, but he still provides some advantages. He functions as more than just a mere 2/2. He feeds the Gator as well and also very important in this build, he will most likely cost you less life. I think this outweighs pumping up the goyf when the enchantment is tossed in the yard.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

About Sui's mana base, I have been running 16 swamps and 4 Wastelands. Is 16 enough swamps, and if not should I up the swamps or diminish the amount of wastelands? In testing, I think I am starting to agree with only 3 wastelands although I think its a tough decision. Also, LD in general is starting to get more and more controversial. The discard archetype maybe be making a comeback and some people are taking more discard over LD. I think we should have a comprehensive discussion about it, to reaffirm where we are heading with this deck.

[Galroth]

@ Lord - I have two suiblack decks. One that uses only discard, and one that includes discard and land destruction.

Discard became a little stronger when it picked up Thoughtseize, and many people have said that land destruction is getting weaker. I'm of mixed opinion regarding that claim. Threshold is ever more present and I really value land destruction in that matchup. So much in fact that I sideboard 2x Smallpox to compliment my full sets of Sinkholes and Wastelands in what I consider my better suiblack list. Ten land destruction effects can be pretty brutal for decks running three colors.

However, I'm quite positive the choice to run more or less land destruction is reliant on your creature base and the amount of acceleration you play (i.e. pretty much the rest of your deck). In the deck that does run land destruction, I have both Dark Ritual and Chrome Mox so I can lay down either a first turn Sinkhole, or a large beater followed by a sinkhole to buy myself time to beat. In that same build I don't run any of the 1cc zombies. Laying a zombie down first and then buying a turn to beat with a land destruction effect nets you very little advantage. If you cast the 1cc zombies after your land destruction effect(s)... they're pretty supoptimal. Just about any other creature is a better choice, they provide little pressure, have no devastating effect when they connect, etc.

I've written on this topic a bit previously, but I'll try to summarize my position. If you run the 1cc zombies (please run all 8) then there is precious little room and use to run a slew of land destruction effects (which makes them a little less useful) and the ld effects are less effective in combination with the zombies. Instead, maximize your discard effects, maybe even including cabal therapy considering your creature count is higher than in other suiblack builds. With the 1cc zombies you don't need to buy tempo. You instead need to attempt ensuring your early threats stay useful by eliminating the cards in their hand that counter the 1cc zombie pressure you've laid down.

If any of this is unclear, or you just want more detail, let me know and I'll try expouding on these ideas a bit more.

As to your land count. If you're running chrome mox, then I think you're set. Otherwise I'd up it to 17x swamp. A general rule is 17x of a color to ensure two of it on turn two. A rule that's only really important in black and white aggro decks. If you want to play it safe, bump it up to 18x. This isn't including Dark Ritual, which takes a little pressure of this general rule, but really not too much. Even with a ritual opening your more than likely to want double black on turn 2. I highly recommend chrome mix incidentally. Most the builds I've seen running around here could make use of it. I personally run 15x Swamp, 4x Wasteland, 3x Chrome Mox, and 4x Ritual. My curve doesn't include the 1cc zombies, but it does pack 4x Duress and 4x Thoughseize.

I'll prolly post my list later today. I finally maindecked Yixlid Jailor... something I never thought I'd do. On the other hand he replaces Plague Spitter, which everyone thinks I'm crazy to maindeck anyways. Both Plague Spitter and Engineered Plague are now in the board, so I'm very weary at the moment of how well my aggro-matchups will do. Maindecked Plague Spitter just had a bit too much dis-synergy with the rest of the deck. It was alright because I could toss him to chrome mox or small pox. But the inclusion of Thoughtsieze moved Smallpox to my board. So Spitter became less useful.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Wow, very interesting post Galroth. I think you are a radical as far as Sui goes and maybe that is a good thing. I want to see your list before I say anything else, and rest assured I will play test it like no tomorrow and see where the rabbit hole goes:wink: .

[Galroth]

Well, not so radical I think. I experiment with alot of different stuff though.

The Current List:

15x Swamp
3x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Wasteland
4x Sinkhole
4x Duress
4x Thoughseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Dark Confidant
3x Nantuko Shade
3x Yixlid Jailor


Board:
3x Plague Spitter
4x Engineered Plague
3x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Dystopia
2x Small Pox

I've been trying to find room for Planar Void also, and I would highly recommend it in any meta rampant with graveyard hate. Between Planar Void and Yixlid Jailor. Mine however leans more towards aggro.

As people have pointed out before, I have... 0 removal maindecked. I haven't found it a problem truthfully. If you're on the beatdown with accelerated beats that you power out consistently, then it's rarely needed. Especially considering that Game 1 , if against combo and control, it's either dead or unnecesarry. Against aggro or aggro-control, just play like sui-black plays. Go balls to the wall and stay on the offensive. Game 2 and 3 you've got a slew of removal options for whatever particular deck you're facing.

--
The other variant of suiblack I've toyed with was previously posted here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3451&page=20

There have been some slight changes which include thoughseize, and cut Order of the Ebon Hand and a Jitte for 3x Swords of Fire and Ice. With Dark Ritual and Lake of the Dead it makes a fantastic turn 3 play. And if you're running lots of small beats you've got to either make them count somehow.

Maybe more later... have to run for the moment.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Well, not so radical I think. I experiment with alot of different stuff though.

The Current List:

15x Swamp
3x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual
4x Wasteland
4x Sinkhole
4x Duress
4x Thoughseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Dark Confidant
3x Nantuko Shade
3x Yixlid Jailor


Board:
3x Plague Spitter
4x Engineered Plague
3x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Dystopia
2x Small Pox

As people have pointed out before, I have... 0 removal maindecked. I haven't found it a problem truthfully. If you're on the beatdown with accelerated beats that you power out consistently, then it's rarely needed. Especially considering that Game 1 , if against combo and control, it's either dead or unnecesarry. Against aggro or aggro-control, just play like sui-black plays. Go balls to the wall and stay on the offensive. Game 2 and 3 you've got a slew of removal options for whatever particular deck you're facing.


I really like where your MB is going. The synergy looks very nice and I like how you managed to fit in some much discard and Ld. One thing that concerns me is a lack of Gofy answers. When you have some more time, I would like to hear more on your SB. I think Planar Void should be in there somewhere. In what matchups would you bring out the Plague Spitter? I can see his usefullness against Gobs and Storm decks that use ETW, but I am curious about how he earned a spot. Back to the Jailer though, it helps against Ichorid and other things but it does not answer Threshold. I like him a lot, but I am curious about how Thresh plays out with no void.

[Galroth]

Planar Void is more important for Ichorid and Breakfast that for Threshold. Don't get me wrong, it's still good. Unfortunately it does little against Goyf unless brought out first turn. I chose Yixlid Jailor basically because he has a body. My creature count is precariously low with the amount of disruption I pack, so every creature needs to a bomb against something. This is part of the reason I was running Plague Spitter. Random-aggro still makes a huge portion of legacy. Probably as much as combo does if I had my guess. Sadly, suicide black's toughest match-ups are pretty much the jank random aggro that will die to everything else. So beyond relying on my opponent being a noob, I played Plague Spitter. He's one of the best answers in my opinion. A beater and a board sweeper. Thing is, you can't really drop your other threats. This is generally easy to play around, but the problem is you're still playing around it. Between Engineered Plague and Plague Spitter I really don't worry about Goblins, Fish, and a number of other weenie decks. Aggro decks where there bodies are a little bigger can get troublesome (Counter Slivers has been a problem, even with Plague and Spitter it's difficult). Oh and Jitte helps swing those aggro matches more.

I wandered... Planar Void is hot. Again, if more graveyard combo was in my meta I would probably be packing it, maybe even over engineered plague. My Threshold matchup basically doesn't need Planar Void though. It's really only good on turns 1 or 2, and I don't want to mulligan just to find it. In addition, my sideboard will bring in SmallPox and Dystopia. Threshold has even less permanents, and these two cards are great card advantage, and they hit Threshold where it will hurt most, it's creatures and it's mana-base. The Threshold matchup is comfortable for me. I'm hesitant to call it favorable, because even I think it's the best deck in the format, but that's what I think it is. Obviously UGr is the toughest of the varieties. The others are not well enough equipped to deal with suiblack. If all you see is Thresh, then perhaps that's one more reason to run Planar Void. Part of the problem I've also come across is what to cut for my boarding against Threshold. Cutting threats is always scary, but I think Yixlid Jailor has to go for your best option, Dystopia. Small Pox makes its way in for... this one is a tough one, and I'm not sure I'm right... 2x Hymn to Tourach. It might be right to cut Ritual instead and rely on greater number of disruption and threats. Daze and Force of Will make Ritual less effective, so I question this sometime. Why don't I cut chrome mox? I need more than 15x permanent black sources for turn 2 double black mana. Having to insert four more planar void would make this decision even tougher. I'm satisfied for the moment. We'll see what happens if the meta shifts again.

Again, my choice to not run Planar Void is purely meta. I just don't see enough Ichorid, Breakfast, etc to warrant a spot. I imagine if I was East Coast it would be a different story. Maybe Plague or Spitter would get nixed.

[feuerizer]

Hello Suicide Players!

I hope, I dont disturb the discussion. I just want to give some impression of Sui from my point of view.
I have played Red Death for quite a time but have decided to go mono black for consistency reasons. So far I am pretty happy with my maindeck.

4xWasteland
17xSwamp
4xDark Ritual
4xDuress
4xHymn to Tourach
4xSinkhole
4xHypnotic specter
4xNantuko Shade
4xPhyrexian Negator
2xRotting Giant
2xWretched Anurid
4xSmother
3xJitte

I like to change Duress to Thoughtseize. Taking a short look at ebay here in Germany, makes me cry. A playset is round about 60€ which is 80$. Poorly there is not enough money :cry:

I am not sure for now about the Giant/Anurid split. I have decided to play 2 Anurids because of the lack of fetchlands to support 3 Giants.

[Baumeister]

Hello Suicide Players!

I hope, I dont disturb the discussion. I just want to give some impression of Sui from my point of view.
I have played Red Death for quite a time but have decided to go mono black for consistency reasons. So far I am pretty happy with my maindeck.

4xWasteland
17xSwamp
4xDark Ritual
4xDuress
4xHymn to Tourach
4xSinkhole
4xHypnotic specter
4xNantuko Shade
4xPhyrexian Negator
2xRotting Giant
2xWretched Anurid
4xSmother
3xJitte

I like to change Duress to Thoughtseize. Taking a short look at ebay here in Germany, makes me cry. A playset is round about 60€ which is 80$. Poorly there is not enough money :cry:

I am not sure for now about the Giant/Anurid split. I have decided to play 2 Anurids because of the lack of fetchlands to support 3 Giants.

Your list makes me happy - I thought I was the only one who played the "slower" version of Suicide Black (without the zombies). It all looks solid, and we know it's good because Anwar's build has been tested a bunch. I always found Rotting Giant difficult to run in this build because you aren't pouring a lot of cards into the graveyard rapidly. Wretched Anurid can hurt a lot sometimes, but usually he more than makes up for your life loss. I don't know if you need 3 Jittes because all of your creatures are powerhouses by themsleves, but it's God against any creatures, so go for it.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Its good to have another comrade feuerizer. I don't think you need any Annurids at all btw. I support 3 Rotting Giants with no problem, and that last slot could easily go to something else. You have plenty of beatsticks as is. Actually, I think a single Yixlid Jailer could be cute secret tech.

BTW, how has your deck been performing in your meta? Also, did you feel your deck performed better when you dropped the red? I know its going to be tough to get the Thougtseizes, but I think we all have to find a way. I am starting to sell cards and gathering everything in preparation. I hope Thoughtseize and a proper list can make this deck competitive. Sui Worlds baby!

[Galroth]

A note on why I don't run removal maindeck. The primary reason I don't run removal is the principle that there are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. I maindecked Yixlid Jailer, and previously Plague Spitter in place of removal. Removal can be dead, so game 1 when I don't know what my opponent is playing I risk no removal and instead increase my beats. This leads to a sub-point - I want to play the beatdown. This is suicide black. Removal is less important when your creatures are overwhelming theirs. Striving for this game 1 lets you still have a good chance against aggro and aggro-control if their hand is anything less than optimal, while maintaining a very strong game against control and combo. Game 2 and 3 I bring in my sideboard, of which every piece serves as removal for a specific deck or decktype. Weenies and Goblins get Engineered Plauge and Spitter; Thresh gets Dystopia and Smallpox which doubles for anything with a precarious manabase. Jitte helps out against aggro in general.

I know that removal is seldom dead in this format, but beyond maindecked Jitte, is the Snuff Out or Smother maindecked really so important game 1 against a random opponent? My question is, does it pay off?

@ Feuerizer and Baumeister - Oona's Prowler might be a serious consideration for replacement of Rotting Giant or Wretched Anurid. No, it doesn't have a body, but I would guess the flying would make up for it. I'm also assuming that both of you have played with your builds enough to reject Confidant, or mainboarded Yixlid Jailer of Spitter ;). I haven't tested Oona's Prowler yet, just thinkin'.

[feuerizer]

I don't know if you need 3 Jittes because all of your creatures are powerhouses by themsleves, but it's God against any creatures, so go for it.

Jitte is one of the main reasons I dropped Red Death. The maindeck was set in stone, there was simply no place to play Jitte. By removing the 7 burn spells which are pretty dead with so many Tarmogoyfs around, you have slots für 3 Jitte and 4 Smother.


Oona's Prowler might be a serious consideration for replacement of Rotting Giant or Wretched Anurid. No, it doesn't have a body, but I would guess the flying would make up for it. I'm also assuming that both of you have played with your builds enough to reject Confidant, or mainboarded Yixlid Jailer of Spitter ;). I haven't tested Oona's Prowler yet, just thinkin'.

The body is one problem, but the other is that your opponent can make decisions for you! Through my entire magic life I have learned the lesson to not let your opponent make decisions for you.
Therefore I reject the Prowler.


BTW, how has your deck been performing in your meta? Also, did you feel your deck performed better when you dropped the red?

I have the typical random meta with burn and aggro.
Well, that is a place where Jitte shines!

Yes, the deck is better because it is more consistent. I am a shuffle idiot, I manage to sit in the midgame with a hand of 3 Bolt and 3 Chain Lightning and absolutely no red mana throughout the entire game. :rolleyes:

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I noticed a Dead Guy Ale deck top 8 in a rather large German tourney. The thing that really stuck out to me was the presence of Withered Wretch in both MB and SB. I would surmise that contributed in a big way to help handle Thresh and other graveyard dependent decks. Here is the list.

Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Withered Wretch

Removal

4 Swords to Plowshares

Disruption

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

Mana

4 Dark Ritual
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Godless Shrine
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Withered Wretch
2 Pithing Needle
4 Condemn
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague

61Number of cards in maindeck 15

The lack of Planar Void is pretty interesting. I think that might be a good call here, because Grunt, Wretch, and Extirpate to a lesser degree cover it pretty well. I think some of this tech could be ported to Sui Black in a way that doesn't sacrifice too much tempo.

[Baumeister]

I noticed a Dead Guy Ale deck top 8 in a rather large German tourney. The thing that really stuck out to me was the presence of Withered Wretch in both MB and SB. I would surmise that contributed in a big way to help handle Thresh and other graveyard dependent decks. Here is the list.

Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Withered Wretch

Removal

4 Swords to Plowshares

Disruption

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

Mana

4 Dark Ritual
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Godless Shrine
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

2 Withered Wretch
2 Pithing Needle
4 Condemn
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague

61Number of cards in maindeck 15

The lack of Planar Void is pretty interesting. I think that might be a good call here, because Grunt, Wretch, and Extirpate to a lesser degree cover it pretty well. I think some of this tech could be ported to Sui Black in a way that doesn't sacrifice too much tempo.

Yeah, sure. The problem Suicide Black will run into is that it really can't afford to sit back and control the game like Deadguy. Wretch is good, but to use him effectively, you need to put mana into him every turn which is hard for Suicide Black. You may say this is same thing that Nantuko Shade does, but Shade ends games while Wretch just extends them. My two cents.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

With Wretch, I think you should take out the Shades. Also, I believe his effect could be more important that swinging with big beats in many situations. Playing the beatdown with this deck is getting trickier and trickier with the advent of Gofy. We can't just mindlessly crash into our opponents anymore. The Wretch is a pure metagame call, but I think he should be given a shot.

I think Galroth's Chrome mox plan maybe better here for including Wretch, but here is a tentative list that I am thinking of ala Tea Cup style.

Legion of Somewhat Less Doom But More Tech

4x Sarcomancy
3x Negator
4x Dark Confidant
4x Hippie
2x Rotting Giant
2x Withered Wretch

Disruption

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Sinkhole

Removal

3x Jitte
3x Smother

Mana

17x Swamp
3x Wasteland
4x Dark Ritual

Heh, ironically I am back up to the original count of 8 zombies. I think its time we start metagaming our decks more to beat Thresh and other GY decks. I am not sure Wretch is the answer, but he seems pretty reasonable as a 2 of. Well, as you can tell my deck beats a lot less hard to pretty much everyone else's build. I am banking on metagame, and my belief that Sui Black has to play a tad more control than it used to. Our creatures are not the most efficient anymore. Gofy will be showing up everywhere. Chances is, the Wretch will be weakening Gofy and will indeed be removing bridges. Yeah he is a bear in some matchups... but there are so many decks that abuse the GY that either he or Jailer will be a potent answer. I lean towards the Wretch, because his effect works on Thresh as well. Your dark rituals won't be giant growths, but I am quite sure the Thresh player on the otherside will frown if it resolves with a Wretch on your side.

[technogeek5000]

That german list looks good. I dont know if i like wretch. Dont get me wrong, if your meta has lots of thresh and graveyard combo then he would be a great mainboard card. I wouldnt side him becaue there are so many different and better options for grave hat that black has. Wretch pretty much is the biggest example of mono blacks weakness. Jotun grunt operates the exact same way except you dont need to pump mana, hates more cards out of yards, and has muscle so hes not dead in the other matchups.

Also i have been taking tea cups advice and been testing sarcomancy over carnophage. have found that it does create less life loss but if it gets hit it becomes a big problem. I rarely find myself saccing the enchantment to gator but when i do i am greatful that i am running it. its currently about 50/50 so ill test it a little more and see how it goes.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

That german list looks good. I dont know if i like wretch. Dont get me wrong, if your meta has lots of thresh and graveyard combo then he would be a great mainboard card. I wouldnt side him becaue there are so many different and better options for grave hat that black has. Wretch pretty much is the biggest example of mono blacks weakness. Jotun grunt operates the exact same way except you dont need to pump mana, hates more cards out of yards, and has muscle so hes not dead in the other matchups.

Also i have been taking tea cups advice and been testing sarcomancy over carnophage. have found that it does create less life loss but if it gets hit it becomes a big problem. I rarely find myself saccing the enchantment to gator but when i do i am greatful that i am running it. its currently about 50/50 so ill test it a little more and see how it goes.

I think the overall trend IS for the meta to have lots of thresh and graveyard combo. Black can pretty much metagame for anything, and I am confidant that the Wretch will be a safe bet. However assuming beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Wretch is strong MB card in your meta, what would a list incorporating him look like for a mono build? Also as I have asked before, can the strengths of a stable, consistent, and non-wasteable mana base outweigh the superior options that a splash could offer? I think the answer is in favor of the splash, but perhaps in this meta rife with attacks on multicolored mana bases and nonbasic lands.... the mono version can hold its own. In my opinion, we should really answer that question throughly and finally. If the mono builds merits do not even approach a splash, then why discuss it at all aside for budget reasons. Looking at some recent tourney results, Sui Black has had an inferior performance compared to hybrids and splashes lately. Does that answer my question or have there been a lack of good sui black lists and players? Edit: Actually, mulling this over some more and looking at some of the other sui related threads adds another advantage for the mono version. Its lack of fetchlands in particular make the life loss of thoughtseize no big deal, while other builds have to scramble to figure how to work it out or run one less copy. Still, is even that enough?

@ Techno: Has your throwing arm improved yet? I am still waiting on those duals:wink:

[feuerizer]

Also as I have asked before, can the strengths of a stable, consistent, and non-wasteable mana base outweigh the superior options that a splash could offer? I think the answer is in favor of the splash, but perhaps in this meta rife with attacks on multicolored mana bases and nonbasic lands.... the mono version can hold its own. In my opinion, we should really answer that question throughly and finally.

The mana base of the mono version ( I play 17 Swamps and 4 Wastelands) is one of the most consistent of the competitive or nearly competitive magic decks in legacy. I am close to changing it to 18/3! Looking at your opening hand with 1 Swamp and 1 Wasteland is pure crap. Similar to burn you need 7 cards to win the game outright.
The splash weakens you but gives you access to answers which black doesnt have.
At the moment I am pretty happy with my mono list. I have turned my back to the red splash because burn is no longer good in the face of the mighty Goyf.
The white splash is hot, no question!
Nevertheless I will stay mono for the simple reason of consistency. And I like Smother, it simply fits right into the metagame. Combined with Jitte, you are the man, hehe.

[technogeek5000]

i think people need to start playing snuff out again. I havent seen it in any recent lists and its no les brokn then it was 2/3 months ago. provided, the life loss combined with zombies and the new thoughtsieze (and confidant but if you run all these in the same deck you might not want to run 4 snuffs) could be a problem but i think its still broken and gives the deck some much needed tempo boost.

[Ataxrxes]

i think people need to start playing snuff out again. I havent seen it in any recent lists and its no les brokn then it was 2/3 months ago. provided, the life loss combined with zombies and the new thoughtsieze (and confidant but if you run all these in the same deck you might not want to run 4 snuffs) could be a problem but i think its still broken and gives the deck some much needed tempo boost.

This is my current list:

4 Sarcomancy
4 Hyppie
4 Negator
4 Shade
3 Confidant

4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Smother
3 Snuff Out
2 Cursed Scroll

4 Ritual
4 wasteland
16 swamp

I may have the number of Smothers and Snuff Outs reversed but I think this is right. I haven't done any real testing or anything, but I played a few games with a friend and it seemed to do pretty well. I don't even know of any other players around where I live who are into Legacy (or any other Magic players for that matter) so these numbers and choices are obviously flexible depending on your meta.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I playtested it and found that the life loss was indeed to high. Well, at least for my tastes.

[Galroth]

I think the choice to cut Nantuko Shade for Withered Wretch is incorrect. Why? First, Suicide black is not a control deck, infact its elements of control are even different from many aggro-control decks. Suicide black wants the initiative. It's driven by tempo. Disrupt and kill as quickly as possible before your opponent is back on his or her feat. Nantuko Shade is the second best beater behind Phyrexian Negator. *A sidenote: I only run 3 because multiples are not as valuable. Sometimes I wonder if 4 would still be better because I want to see atleast one a game. He is both your mid game and your late game creature. Cutting Nantuko Shade leaves one with a build that, in my opinion, won't put enough pressure on your opponent. I'm not trying to suggest Withered Wretch is a poor creature. He's not. But he has a few drawbacks. First, against any based combo deck, he's not good enough. Turn 2-4 against decks like Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast, you don't have enough mana to break their combo. It's not as if you'll want to reserve your mana anyways for the turn they dump their library into the graveyard. Instead, suicide black would prefer to drop another beat, or chance disrupting the combo to stall it a turn. If maindecking graveyard hate, I think Yixlid Jailer is better. Same beats and still a creature, which I like - I wouldn't even consider running maindeck graveyard hate if it wasn't a body.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I think the choice to cut Nantuko Shade for Withered Wretch is incorrect. Why? First, Suicide black is not a control deck, infact its elements of control are even different from many aggro-control decks. Suicide black wants the initiative. It's driven by tempo. Disrupt and kill as quickly as possible before your opponent is back on his or her feat. Nantuko Shade is the second best beater behind Phyrexian Negator. *A sidenote: I only run 3 because multiples are not as valuable. Sometimes I wonder if 4 would still be better because I want to see atleast one a game. He is both your mid game and your late game creature. Cutting Nantuko Shade leaves one with a build that, in my opinion, won't put enough pressure on your opponent. I'm not trying to suggest Withered Wretch is a poor creature. He's not. But he has a few drawbacks. First, against any based combo deck, he's not good enough. Turn 2-4 against decks like Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast, you don't have enough mana to break their combo. It's not as if you'll want to reserve your mana anyways for the turn they dump their library into the graveyard. Instead, suicide black would prefer to drop another beat, or chance disrupting the combo to stall it a turn. If maindecking graveyard hate, I think Yixlid Jailer is better. Same beats and still a creature, which I like - I wouldn't even consider running maindeck graveyard hate if it wasn't a body.

Actually, when I was running the Shade I felt that 3 was the correct number as well. However, for me the problem with the Nantuko Shade is consistency. Sometimes he is hot, and sometimes he is not. I like the 2cc zombies, because they are always 3/3 for 2 and have more synergy with my build. Also, thus far I can't really say I feel the loss of not having Shades in my deck. Usually I don't see more than 3 or 4 lands, which in almost all cases I would rather use to play something. That being said, I will probably never sell my Shades or trade them because I understand how strong they can actually be. They are a gofy answer all in themselves and can end games. Meh, for me at least it seems like a tough call and one that I will give more thought. If you do run them, I would definitely use Snuff Out. With Thoughtseize, the life loss can be brutal but then you would just restructure your deck. It would be better in the deck that wants to be pumping shades than in mine.

I will admit though, a lot of the reason I don't run Shade is because Sarcomancy is one of my favorite cards and I feel there needs to be at least 3 other zombies in the deck to run it optimally. I love the cute little flesh-eating zombie and its adorable ways *pets his sarcomancy card* So, I might try a creature base like this without Sarco...

4x Dark Confidant
4x Hyppie
4x Carophage
3x Negator
3x Shade

Speaking of the 1cc zombies, I still find it hard to believe people don't like them. I understand in a build that has moxes. However Goblins are still a powerful force, there should be some strong first turn lacky responses, and I think it is far to early to say Goblins are on the decline. I mean they are right now, but I would wait a few months and I would not be so quick to underestimate them. Also, having strong first turn plays in general are important and with the rits, thoughtseizes, and 1cc zombies you have lots of strong plays. As we know, second turn jitte swinging is brutal as well.

I agree that Jailer may be a stronger choice than Wretch, but my only concern is its lack of impact against Thresh.

[feuerizer]

4x Dark Confidant
4x Hyppie
4x Carophage
3x Negator
3x Shade

Speaking of the 1cc zombies, I still find it hard to believe people don't like them. I understand in a build that has moxes. However Goblins are still a powerful force, there should be some strong first turn lacky responses, and I think it is far to early to say Goblins are on the decline. I mean they are right now, but I would wait a few months and I would not be so quick to underestimate them. Also, having strong first turn plays in general are important and with the rits, thoughtseizes, and 1cc zombies you have lots of strong plays.

Concerning the 1cc guys, I must admit that I prefer the tough guys. I only want creatures that rock the house, Negator, Shade, ´Big´ Zombies, Hyppi.
They change your play style of course. In the first few turns you play your disruption, followed by some creatures which will hopefully end the game.

There is only one reason to add them (1cc Zombies) to your maindeck and that is your first turn!
But do you really need them while you have Thoughtseize?
Adding the decline of Goblins to the mix, supports the question.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Concerning the 1cc guys, I must admit that I prefer the tough guys. I only want creatures that rock the house, Negator, Shade, ´Big´ Zombies, Hyppi.
They change your play style of course. In the first few turns you play your disruption, followed by some creatures which will hopefully end the game.

There is only one reason to add them (1cc Zombies) to your maindeck and that is your first turn!
But do you really need them while you have Thoughtseize?
Adding the decline of Goblins to the mix, supports the question.

Don't forget to add early jitte swingage to the mix in support of the little dudes. Also, I would not count out the Goblins just yet. It is still a powerful deck, and I feel they will come back with a reworked game plan. Don't forget the dudes are very efficient and do get some hits in. Besides that, like Techno said awhile back they are good for the curve and help you from taking mana burn from a rit. In their discredit, they are the first things to side out against thresh... I am going to wait and see how the meta changes in the next month. If Goblins stay down, then who knows. I admit they aren't exactly the mvp of the deck. However, I just hate doing nothing first turn... how much is that worth? Its pretty hard to quantify for me at least.

[Galroth]

I run 4x Ritual, 4x Duress, and 4x Thoughtseize instead of the 1cc critters. Toss in 3x Chrome Mox and my turn 1 openings are as consistent as any of the decks I've seen posted thus far. It is possible to have a smoothe curve without the 1cc critters.

However, I don't run equipment. Most of the time I worry just about having enough critters out and doing stuff rather than choosing which critter to equip. I find that the builds with the larger cc creatures versus those with the 1cc zombies, are more explosive though a little less consistent (less threats = less consistent).

I also think that if your build favors one of these over the other, push it a bit further to make it either more explosive or more consistent. Find out where the limit of too much is, et al. Basically justify, beyond only your mana curve, why cards in your deck belong. How do they fit into the overall strategy of the deck and why is one route superior to another?

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I run 4x Ritual, 4x Duress, and 4x Thoughtseize instead of the 1cc critters. Toss in 3x Chrome Mox and my turn 1 openings are as consistent as any of the decks I've seen posted thus far. It is possible to have a smoothe curve without the 1cc critters.

However, I don't run equipment. Most of the time I worry just about having enough critters out and doing stuff rather than choosing which critter to equip. I find that the builds with the larger cc creatures versus those with the 1cc zombies, are more explosive though a little less consistent (less threats = less consistent).

I also think that if your build favors one of these over the other, push it a bit further to make it either more explosive or more consistent. Find out where the limit of too much is, et al. Basically justify, beyond only your mana curve, why cards in your deck belong. How do they fit into the overall strategy of the deck and why is one route superior to another?

Heh, I have not so fond memories of chrome mox... I used to run it before I played Sui Black and it made my deck far less consistent. Its been a good 8 months since I did anything with the mox, but this is what I found. For it to be useful, it had to come up really early. If it did, giving up a business spell was generally a fair trade for acceleration purposes. However, with only 3 moxes your chances of getting it the first 2 turns aren't so hot. Another thing about Chrome Moxes, you just hate to see them in multiples.... They were terrible top decks when I needed an actual land and was forced to give up some valuable business just so I wouldn't be mana starved. It might be time for me to try it again, but I still remember my disgust for the card. I respect your choice of playing it, and I love it in your build. Still, I think I am going to pass for now.

That was a strong comment about the difference between builds with the 1cc zombies or just all big men. I think that sums it up perfectly. I prefer the consistency path myself, and those little dudes are amazing for that. They are very helpful in my build as a four of and I think it would be a tough cut. I suppose if you go for a smaller threat density and no jitte, than they are less justified. However, I can't see Sui without the jitte at all. It just gives this deck so much versatility. Really though, can this deck be competitive by going for the crash and burn beatdown anymore. This deck DOES need answers when the opponent is dropping his highly efficient creatures or something like Tombstalker.

Also, I think I am warming up to the Shade again... I hate the times where I have to hold back for a turn and this does pop up enough times for it to be a issue, but next turn I will be crashing with so much force with the Shade. I think he is fine as a three of. I usually dont want to see him early game, and I love it when I drop them a bit later on with all the mana available to pump him with. For those hesitant to use Bob, these two cards do in fact love each other. You maybe have to hold back a turn to play that card you just topdecked, but the land and rits you get with Bob make Shade a nightmare in the next turn.

[Baumeister]

I kind of see Chrome Mox and the Zombies as very similar. They both are good first turn plays, but are kind of meh after that. I think the key is to play cards that you are never dissapointed to topdeck. I've said it before - Shade is amazing (at least I think so). He's good in the early game as a 2/1 for 2, and he only gets better as the game progresses. I always saw Suicide Black as attempting to have all of the proactive answers at once which is hard to do. The best way we can do that is to have cards that do multiple things - Hypnotic Specter beats and forces discards, Hymn 2 for 1's, etc.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I kind of see Chrome Mox and the Zombies as very similar. They both are good first turn plays, but are kind of meh after that. I think the key is to play cards that you are never dissapointed to topdeck. I've said it before - Shade is amazing (at least I think so). He's good in the early game as a 2/1 for 2, and he only gets better as the game progresses. I always saw Suicide Black as attempting to have all of the proactive answers at once which is hard to do. The best way we can do that is to have cards that do multiple things - Hypnotic Specter beats and forces discards, Hymn 2 for 1's, etc.

The only thing I will challenge in that post is the Shade being good in the early game. Early game you would rather a 3/3 or a 5/5 with trample. A 2/1 or even a 3/2 doesn't cut it for me. However, yeah the Shade becomes a nightmare mid to late. Also I totally agree with you on Specter and Hymn and their awesomeness, however its tough find answers like that. I suppose Jailer would be a weak example, but kinda 2 for 1. The Jitte I think is the epitome of being a proactive answer and so versatile. Bob is a shining example of this as well, and the new Thoughtseize is pretty much whatever you want it to be early on. Speaking of Thoughtseize, the life loss is pretty annoying when I just want to take a peak at my opponent's hand to ensure my spells will resolve against control. But I guess that is a minor qualm.

I might try a build with 4 Snuff Outs and no eat me zombies. It gives you an out if your opponent is playing Gobs, and maybe the loss of life won't be as bad without the little dudes munching on me. Anyway, I think the chrome mox plan, the 1cc zombies, or something else should remain in the deck. Gobs are not dead yet.

[Baumeister]

Okay, I agree that Nantuko Shade is not "good" early game, but he's not bad either. I never feel bad dropping a Shade on turn two if it's the best play I have because it's a threat the opponent must deal with pretty soon. Also he's one of the few creatures Tarmogoyf fears. As for the Goblins matchup - the metagame has shifted over to Threshold and I think we should tune the deck back to beating ******** more and sideboard against Goblins. Anwar's build has a better matchup against Threshold than the weenie build so maybe we should look more into that. I'm not saying that Goblins is dead or that it can't come back. Just maybe that we should accept that matchup and focus on beating the most popular deck right now.

[technogeek5000]

Okay, I agree that Nantuko Shade is not "good" early game, but he's not bad either. I never feel bad dropping a Shade on turn two if it's the best play I have because it's a threat the opponent must deal with pretty soon. Also he's one of the few creatures Tarmogoyf fears. As for the Goblins matchup - the metagame has shifted over to Threshold and I think we should tune the deck back to beating ******** more and sideboard against Goblins. Anwar's build has a better matchup against Threshold than the weenie build so maybe we should look more into that. I'm not saying that Goblins is dead or that it can't come back. Just maybe that we should accept that matchup and focus on beating the most popular deck right now.

The thing is, dropping a shade turn 2 is never the best play. Sometimes even dropping shade isnt the best play on turn 4. This happens often because all the current lists run playsets of confidant. And actually, shade isnt that big of a threat to goyf because you need to consistently devote 4-6 mana every turn to just hold it back. If you have a bob out then this is never the best thing and i would much rather have a 3/3 or 5/5 so i can cast my grunts or removal. Oh and about beating the most popular deck.

WHITE SPLASH

The white build probably has the best thresh matchup out of all the sui builds. My build runs a creature base that is a mix of the weenie and anwars build.

[Baumeister]

The thing is, dropping a shade turn 2 is never the best play. Sometimes even dropping shade isnt the best play on turn 4. This happens often because all the current lists run playsets of confidant. And actually, shade isnt that big of a threat to goyf because you need to consistently devote 4-6 mana every turn to just hold it back. If you have a bob out then this is never the best thing and i would much rather have a 3/3 or 5/5 so i can cast my grunts or removal. Oh and about beating the most popular deck.

WHITE SPLASH

The white build probably has the best thresh matchup out of all the sui builds. My build runs a creature base that is a mix of the weenie and anwars build.

Okay, we get it. Sure, your white splash probably has a good matchup against Threshold and other good decks. Wonderful for you. I don't want to splash because I prefer the consistency of one color. Go have fun playing your deck while we work on ways to make Mono-Black Suicide work better. Stop telling me to play your deck.

[Galroth]

My first question is why in the hell you're holding Shade back?! Yes, I supose you could spend your time blocking with Shade, but in my experience I'm usually on the offense against Thresh. They play the control game 'til they're able to swing it around. Shade should be attacking. The fact that it can deal with Goyf is just a plus. I'd much rather race Goyf though.

I really don't see any clear advantage to the white splash. The two cards it gains are Stp and Jotun Grunt. Both are good, but I don't think either is that astoundingly great that the white splash is clearly better.

Swords to Plowshares is not so much better than Snuff Out. One offers the opponent life, one takes yours away. Stp requires you run a white splash. The tempo of both is relatively equal.

Jotun Grunt is a great beater, but he doesn't stick around. Suicide black has few enough creatures anyways that this makes me worry. Moreover, running Jotun Grunt requires that you don't run, or atleast run less of Nantuko Shade, Hypnotic Specter, Phyrexian Negator, or Dark Confidant, all or which are strong creatures. Arguably any of these creatures are just as good as Grunt in most matchups, though Grunt does have a slight advantage over most of them against Thresh.

Then there are the inherit disadvantages of running multiple colors. A more fragile manabase, the potential issues of abusing your mana acceleration, etc.

Beyond Threshold I still don't see too many matchups where the White splash is favorable. Of course, neither mono-black or the white splash are putting up significant results. So unless we're able to convince each other with rhetoric (and people entrenched in their positions are very unlikely to concede their position based on another person's opinion) then any definitive answer is unlikely to be reached.

---
EDIT:

I'm crazy about Chrome Mox and this is one of the few reasons I refuse to switch over to the white splash. I think guarenteed mana acceleration is what suicide black needs to give it that extra boost over other decks. Suicide black already has a solid selection of cards. I think the direction suicide black should take is to rely on some early disruption, followed by some accelerated beats.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

One reason I find myself holding back with shade, is due to it not being big enough. Early on they can just trade, and I usually don't want to do that. I would rather my shade lived long enough to become a true beast. Of course this changes if you have a rit in hand and of course when the game gets to a certain stage. Another reason is, there are plenty of times where the better play will be to use that mana for something better than Shade pump. Early to mid, I would rather be dropping my jittes or Gators. However, I think I love Shade as a three of because then I usually see it when I want it.... which is the mid game. I am beginning to love my Bob fishing me a shade when there are like 5 lands down and a rit in hand. This happens all the time provided they don't kill poor Bob.

About the white splash, I think it has potential. It improved two MU's that see quite a bit of play, Threshold and more importantly Ichorid. I say more importantly, because for Mono Black Sui its almost an auto loss. StP hits far more creatures than Snuff Out does, and overall I give it the nod. Same with Grunt vs. Rotting Giant and Shade. If your meta doesn't have lots of non-basic hate, the white splash is a no brainer to me. However, I think the meta is moving more and more to hate end of the spectrum. I think it could be a tough call and you might lose some random matches with the white splash, but it has the edge over a top tier deck and one of our worst match-ups. That being said, I am tired of spending money (got myself a few sinkholes recently) and am going to work on the mono splash for a while.

On a different note, I think Dead guy Ale is going to make a comeback. I think the format is moving in favor of more controlly aggro than smash face aggro. What I am trying to suggest is, do you think we need to make this deck faster and hit harder or improved disruption package? Your first response will probably be the former, but I ask you to think about it. I seen it said all over the place, that on the whole decks' manabases are weakening. Is it time to fit another sinkhole or wasteland in the deck? Or should we run more discard like Galroth suggest?

[Tacosnape]

So I've developed a second interest in this deck thanks to Thoughtseize and Oona's Prowler, though I don't know if I actually like Oona enough to run or not. Oona seems awesome, but Oona + Jitte = not a combo.

Anyhow, maindeck Leylines are completely badass, for the record. Maindeck Leylines gives you even better matches against Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid, and it goes a long way towards making Tarmogoyf manageable, especially since Sui Black doesn't maindeck Fetchlands or Instants. It's not uncommon for Tarmogoyf to cap out around a manageable 2/3 or 3/4.

My current build is as such:

18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
2 Order of the Ebon Hand
2 Stromgald Crusader
2 Hand of Cruelty

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Leyline of the Void

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
4 Pithing Needle
3 Cursed Scroll

EDIT: It's worth noting that I'm trying out Gathan Raiders.

[Nihil Credo]

Oona seems awesome, but Oona + Jitte = not a combo.
Why not? They have to discard two cards per turn to keep Jitte from triggering.

[Jak]

That is probably the point. It gives the opponent the decision. And more then likely it will be two dead cards. Still seams good, however.

[Galroth]

@ Tacosnape - I've played a list very similar to yours, and I do like it. Thought I'd mention some stuff from my experience.

First, try out Lake of the Dead. You'll probably need to up your Swamp count by 1 in order to use it. I'd probably run 2x. It's one more way to fuel out a quick Jitte, and later on it makes Shade and other pumpables so much bigger that much quicker. What to cut for that space though? I'd recommend some of your 2cc creatures. First, why 2x or Order of the Ebon Hand, Hand of Cruelty, and Stromgald Crusader? Just couldn't decide and weren't sure you wanted to see multiples? In my opinion Stromgald Crusader is the strongest of those. The evasion is helpful in a few situations, and he is a zombie. I'd probably cut the 2x Hand of Cruelty (Out of curiosity, what led you to run him over others? And how has it worked for ya?).

How has maindeck Leyline been working for you? Why did you take this over Planar Void? It's true you probably don't want to drop Planar Void first turn, but Leyline is basically horrible unless you have it in your opening hand, Planar atleast you can draw into the first few turns and it's still usable. Honestly, neither suits my taste. I'd run Yixlid Jailer. If you're maindecking hate, then Jailer is never dead. Add Leyline or Planar to your sideboard and graveyard decks will have a terrible matchup against this. Yixlid Jailer shuts down Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast near as well as Leyline of the Void. Tarmogoyf it has troubles with, but quite honestly, this many creatures and the fact that your creatures are pumpable late game - you shouldn't be having terrible troubles with Tarmogoyf.

Lastly, I've been playing with Swords of Fire and Ice. Currently I run 3x Jitte and 2x Swords of Fire and Ice. It's been quite nice. Every game I want to see a piece of big ass equipment. This ups the count by 1 and I rarely have to worry about Jitte's Legendary status. With Lake of the Dead and Dark Ritual you can near guarentee and equip by turn 3 or a piece of equipment. I've liked it so far.

Grrrr... I really wanted to reply to your deck and now i'm out the door for work a couple of minutes late. Damn you Tacosnape. And good luck!

[Baumeister]

So I've developed a second interest in this deck thanks to Thoughtseize and Oona's Prowler, though I don't know if I actually like Oona enough to run or not. Oona seems awesome, but Oona + Jitte = not a combo.

Anyhow, maindeck Leylines are completely badass, for the record. Maindeck Leylines gives you even better matches against Cephalid Breakfast and Ichorid, and it goes a long way towards making Tarmogoyf manageable, especially since Sui Black doesn't maindeck Fetchlands or Instants. It's not uncommon for Tarmogoyf to cap out around a manageable 2/3 or 3/4.

My current build is as such:

18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
2 Order of the Ebon Hand
2 Stromgald Crusader
2 Hand of Cruelty

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Leyline of the Void

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
4 Pithing Needle
3 Cursed Scroll

EDIT: It's worth noting that I'm trying out Gathan Raiders.

This is the list I'd most likely run if I were using the weenie creatures (or something like it). The fact that 8 of your creatures can become huge and still manage in the early game is what makes the Stark builds roll so smoothly. Just one question: Why do you run a 2/2 split instead of 4 Stromgald Crusaders? I think they're better because they can "fly" (jump maybe?).

[Barook]

@Galroth: So you're basically suggesting something like this: :confused:

18 Swamp
2 Lake of the Dead
4 Dark Ritual

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Yixlid Jailer

3 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

Doesn't look that bad if you ask me.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

My only concern with Lake of the Dead, is the vulernability it adds to your manabase. Other than that, it is an amazing card and really works well with your build Galroth. The explosive potential it adds could well be worth the risk, but it is a risk nonetheless.

Oh, and I think there are way too many zombies in the list. I don't think we need to make ourselves vulnerable to a Engineered plague naming zombies.

[Tacosnape]

This is the list I'd most likely run if I were using the weenie creatures (or something like it). The fact that 8 of your creatures can become huge and still manage in the early game is what makes the Stark builds roll so smoothly. Just one question: Why do you run a 2/2 split instead of 4 Stromgald Crusaders? I think they're better because they can "fly" (jump maybe?).

Because on occasion, I'd rather have Order of the Ebon Hand, because in certain circumstances, Ebon Hand can swing for one less mana than Crusader can merely from the threat of her getting first strike. Ebon Hand is also not a zombie, and I felt that 10 Zombies was sufficient to help out Sarcomancy. The two Hand of Cruelty are there because I really can't afford to pump multiple guys all that often, though I always like to have one pumper. Plus, the 2/2/2 split gives me a certain protection against things like Cabal Therapy and whatnot. I doubt the choice of the 6 Pro-White guys makes a huge difference as long as they're present, as I find pro-STP skyrockets my chance of stealing wins from control decks. If you're worried, cut one of them for 2 Crusaders.


My only concern with Lake of the Dead, is the vulernability it adds to your manabase. Other than that, it is an amazing card and really works well with your build Galroth. The explosive potential it adds could well be worth the risk, but it is a risk nonetheless.

Oh, and I think there are way too many zombies in the list. I don't think we need to make ourselves vulnerable to a Engineered plague naming zombies.

Yeah, I agree, Lake is a horrible idea. One of the strongest things this deck has going for it is an immunity to Wasteland, and if I were going to run a nonbasic I'd sneak in a single Tomb of Urami first to help out my control match in a pinch.

The zombie count has to be moderately high to protect Sarcomancy. Besides, one Plague won't stop Carno or Sarco from bounding through with a Jitte. If you're worried, cut Crusader for more Ebon Hands / Hands of Cruelty.


Why not? They have to discard two cards per turn to keep Jitte from triggering.


That is probably the point. It gives the opponent the decision. And more then likely it will be two dead cards. Still seams good, however.

Jak's absolutely right. It gives the opponent the choice and against a deck like Goblins or another aggro deck, one double discard can be enough to win them the game.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Through testing, the zombie count really only needs to be around 8 for Sarcomancy. You can even go as low as 7.

[Tacosnape]

Through testing, the zombie count really only needs to be around 8 for Sarcomancy. You can even go as low as 7.

And what testing statistic do you propose to offer to back that statement up? Don't use statements like "Through testing" to make a numerical statement when testing isn't giving you any sort of numerical statistic.

The truth is, it completely depends on what deck you're up against as to how many Zombies you -need-. What we do know is that the more zombies you have, the less likely Sarcomancy is to hurt you and the more you get hurt by Plague, and that against control decks you need an awful lot or they get to use Sarcomancy as a kill condition against you.

I personally disagree with your testing results, speaking as someone who ran Suicide Black before Sarcomancy was printed and has run some form of it at all times since. I find 10 to be dangerously low. But truth be told, I don't really care all that much if Sarcomancy has a zombie or not. I run Carnophage and Sarcomancy because they're excellent 1-drops that allow the turn two Rit-Jitte-Equip niftyness and play well off Dark Ritual, and I run the two Stromgald Crusaders because they can fly in a pinch, and evasion wins games.

On top of all that, I find that Plague 1 tends to go on "Insect" or "Shade," more than it goes on Zombie.

[Ozymandias]

My personal version of Suiblack runs at a higher mana curve, in order to make Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, etc. not such a beating. To compensate, it also runs a number of "free" spells.

4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Black Knight
4 Phyrexian Negator

3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Snuff Out
3 Contagion
2 Metagame slots.

4 Unmask
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

20 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

SB:4 Engineered Plague
4 Chalice of the Void

Negator is a beating and a half, as usual. Specter I'm not quite satisfied with, but he does fly, and, if slipped under the counter/swords wall, is pretty much GG for Landstill. Shade is a fast clock and awesome topdeck.

The interesting thing is the choice of Black Knight. He's sort of a relic from the days when goblins walked the earth, but he has good synergy with Jitte. Plus, he dodges all of the one-toughness removal around. He might become a pump knight.

Contagion and Snuff Out are fantastic answers to Tarmogoyf.

The metagame slots are basically either more removal, Leylines, or Jitte+X, depending.

[Tacosnape]

That's 64 cards. I can't imagine that being very optimal.

[Galroth]

@ Barook - That's exactly what I would run... :) Depending on the meta I might consider 4x Hypnotic Specter instead of 4x Yixlid Jailer if graveyard combo wasn't too prevalent. I'd also consider +1 Duress -1 Hymn to Tourach. Duress is better at taking apart fast combo, but it's hard not to love Hymn's pure card advantage. Those are meta concerns though. Otherwise I think it's beautiful ;)

Lake of the Dead - The benefits of this card are obvious. The mana acceleration allows for greater consistency in turn 3 Jitte or Swords of Fire and Ice (if you run them). The deck really wants to see a piece of equipment midgame. This keeps your smaller critters still effective and lets you play the beatdown like this deck wants to. Basically it's the decks midgame strategy 'til your pumpables are just too big to be stopped. Later on Lake of the Dead does exactly that though. Makes your critters huge. This is easily game ending with a Shade in play.

But running Lake is also a risk. Tacosnape, I seriously think you're overlooking the benefits of this card. First, how many decks are actually running Wasteland. Far less than half in my meta. That's not to say it isn't a valid concern - I have no intention of downplaying this whatsoever. Wasteland is a fear when running Lake of the Dead. However, I only run two Lakes. I'm very unlikely to see multiples in any game, so it's not going to cripple my game if a Wasteland is present. Moreover, if your opponent has a Wasteland out in the first few turns, then don't drop Lake of the Dead. It doesn't need to be played for mana, it's just an accelerant. If they're playing Wasteland but don't have it out, then it doesn't matter. Lake of the Dead will pay for itself with one activiation. You'll have your equipment into play which is all you needed it for. Or you'll have pumped one of your critters to lethal (or near lethal) levels. Even if Wasteland is out and tapped, sometimes it's worth it for that mana which in this deck almost directly translates to damage. Lake of the Dead really doesn't hamper this deck, and the potential payoffs are in my opinion, far worth the risk. Course, I wouldn't advocate them if I didn't think so. Pick it up, test it, I think your fear of Wasteland (or even scarier, Stifle) is unfounded. Like Negator, it will win you more than it will lose you.

[Tacosnape]

My fear of Wasteland is not the only reason for me to not run Lake of the Dead. I can't imagine a situation where I would want it, ever, as opposed to just wanting another Swamp.

It can't function as your first land. As your second land, it'll still get you :b::b: on that turn assuming you tap the swamp first, but you'll have one land in play only - The Lake. If it gets Wastelanded, you probably lose, but even if it doesn't, you're still better off with the Swamp at this point because two Swamps can cast everything in some builds of Sui Black and most things in all builds of Sui Black.

This also means to even use the :b::b::b::b: ability once, you're going to have to have a third land. My deck doesn't require three land to run at all. And even if you get the third land for that, what happens if you go Jitte, Equip, Swing, and your attacking creature gets STP'd/Bolted/Whatever? You'll need a fourth land to equip the Jitte again or play any threat not named Carnophage or Sarcomancy.

If I hit four lands, I want to be coming in with 6/5 Shades, 4/1 Pro-White guys (Or 3/1 Flying or 3/1 First Strike), or whatever else. I want four swamps. I don't want a Lake of the Dead.

[Ozymandias]

Well, I reconstructed the decklist from meory, so I think that the contagions are probably extraneous.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

And what testing statistic do you propose to offer to back that statement up? Don't use statements like "Through testing" to make a numerical statement when testing isn't giving you any sort of numerical statistic.

The truth is, it completely depends on what deck you're up against as to how many Zombies you -need-. What we do know is that the more zombies you have, the less likely Sarcomancy is to hurt you and the more you get hurt by Plague, and that against control decks you need an awful lot or they get to use Sarcomancy as a kill condition against you.

I personally disagree with your testing results, speaking as someone who ran Suicide Black before Sarcomancy was printed and has run some form of it at all times since. I find 10 to be dangerously low. But truth be told, I don't really care all that much if Sarcomancy has a zombie or not. I run Carnophage and Sarcomancy because they're excellent 1-drops that allow the turn two Rit-Jitte-Equip niftyness and play well off Dark Ritual, and I run the two Stromgald Crusaders because they can fly in a pinch, and evasion wins games.

On top of all that, I find that Plague 1 tends to go on "Insect" or "Shade," more than it goes on Zombie.

Ha ha ha, I just love the way you post. Perhaps my zombie count isn't backed up by hard numbers. I found with playing my deck, that I felt comfortable with 7 or 8. That is indeed not a hard and fast number, and it does matter which deck you are playing against. I am not sure how much we have to worry that we are not getting eaten by our cute little zombie (why does this dude need other zombies to nibble on unlike normal zombies...), but past a certain number I think is overkill. Anyway, I was more concerned for the Crusader and the Jailer with the engineered plague.

[Tacosnape]

...but past a certain number I think is overkill. Anyway, I was more concerned for the Crusader and the Jailer with the engineered plague.

True. Fortunately for me, I don't run Jailer. Maindecked Leylines make Jailer ext....ah..hell, what's that word? Not extemporaneous, that means something else. (Pauses mid-post to go to Thesaurus.com...) Extraneous. That's it. Maindecked Leylines make Jailer extraneous.

I think at some point if you get enough Zombies you have to look into Undead Warchief and LOTU, but the existence of Nantuko Shade is what keeps this from being a great idea, as Nantuko Shade is the king of badassery. (And shame on any of you who suggested cutting it. There's no other reason to even run this deck. It's not that great anyway and it's terrible without Shade.)

[LordEvilTeaCup]

(It's not that great anyway and it's terrible without Shade.)

The this deck is not that great anyway factor has been hitting me lately. Also to my chagrin, I think I am enjoying Burn more (even though that deck is worse off.) Meh, I put so much time and money in this deck but my devotion to this deck is wavering. I am considering on giving combo a whorl. I don't know, maybe this is just one of those weird phases. In a few months I will see another plateau to reach with this deck, or you might find my deck on ebay...

[Galroth]

And non-graveyard based decks make Leyline... what's the word... worthless. :P I still find it hard to believe that graveyard based decks are so rampant that you're willing to run a card that is dead in other match ups. Admittedly, that's only game 1. But even then, you don't know what you're going up against, and you've only got a 45% chance of having it in your opening hand. No personal insult intended, but to me that seems foolish. Yixlid Jailer atleast will always be useful, whether efficient or not is a different debate.

More on Lake of the Dead - Some of your arguments I have issue with.


It can't function as your first land. As your second land, it'll still get you :b::b: on that turn assuming you tap the swamp first, but you'll have one land in play only - The Lake. If it gets Wastelanded, you probably lose, but even if it doesn't, you're still better off with the Swamp at this point because two Swamps can cast everything in some builds of Sui Black and most things in all builds of Sui Black.

You're right, it can't function as a first land, or a second land. It acts as a third or after. In fact, I'd almost just forget the fact that it's a land, because it's function is much more similar to Dark Ritual. It's an accelerant, or a huge reusable creature pump. I already explained that it isn't replacing a mana source, so suggesting that you'll lose if it gets wasted is nonsense. There is no need to play it from your hand, and you're not going to use its ability beyond once or twice if you do play it.

Two swamps can cast everything in your build. One of the cool things about the deck. But why do you run Dark Ritual? 3 mana? But two swamps can cast everything. The same reasoning applies to Lake of the Dead. It allows you to do multiple things in a turn.


This also means to even use the :b::b::b::b: ability once, you're going to have to have a third land. My deck doesn't require three land to run at all. And even if you get the third land for that, what happens if you go Jitte, Equip, Swing, and your attacking creature gets STP'd/Bolted/Whatever? You'll need a fourth land to equip the Jitte again or play any threat not named Carnophage or Sarcomancy.

Six mana turn three is hard to scoff at. Duress, Thoughseize, or Hymn to Tourach away their StP/Bolt/Whatever? I'd rather not deal with worst case scenarios about how things could go wrong. That's not to say this doesn't happen. But it's rare and easily played around. Heck, drop one of your 2cc creatures instead of preemptively making them Discard. Then if you do happen to lose your equipped creature, you won't have to play with just your Carnophages and Sarcomancys.

We know the deck doesn't require three land to run at all. But it does get extra land as the game progresses (which is a great thing, you're not going to win many games with just 2 land), use those extra swamps and make them count quicker.


If I hit four lands, I want to be coming in with 6/5 Shades, 4/1 Pro-White guys (Or 3/1 Flying or 3/1 First Strike), or whatever else. I want four swamps. I don't want a Lake of the Dead.

You wouldn't rather a 9/8 Shade? Or atleast a 5/4 Shade with the option to become 9/8? This sounds a bit ridiculous to me.

Again, I just urge you to test it out. I'll freely admit it's a risk. But I've played this build off by very few cards ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3451&page=20 ) since Stark introduced this version of suicide black to the Flash meta. Lake of the Dead is one of those cards that I've not yet regretted.

Interestingly enough I mentioned a few posts back that I view suicide black builds going in two different directions, more explosive and more consistent. Tacosnapes build is a perfect example of a very consistent and solid build. Will this win games more than an explosive build? Truthfully, I don't know.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

The later it is in a game, the better Lake of the Dead gets. I've been running a singleton in my version for years, and never regretted it. You really do need creatures that are able to capitalize on a late Lake, though. Shades and Pump Knights are the best candidates, but there's also Withered Wretch, I suppose. Other than that... well, not so much. I have found that it does increase late-game consistency (which is important, given the current metagame; Sui has to be prepared to go long if it has to--hence why equipment is so useful), but you do have to draw it first. Your call, really, but I don't think that Wasteland is much of an argument against a singleton card. Even at two slots, it's not such a great hazard. What's harder to imagine is actually drawing it when you need it.

[C.P.]

In a deck that has such a low land count, you do not want a nonbasic land that eats one of your lands when it comes into play.

I heard something named Wasteland sees some play in the format.


A question to Taco:
How's that maindeck Leyline treating you? what do you think of SB Serum Powder, as stark did to maximize his chance of getting one if he needed?

[GiantGrowth]

In a deck that has such a low land count, you do not want a nonbasic land that eats one of your lands when it comes into play.

I heard something named Wasteland sees some play in the format


I agree with galroth when he says it doesn't function like a land, it functions like a dard ritual. you don't want to have one on the first two turns of the game, thats why only one or two should be run. You don't want this in your opening hand with one other swamp, hoping the opponent doesn't have a wasteland, becasue he probably does.

[Tacosnape]

A question to Taco:
How's that maindeck Leyline treating you? what do you think of SB Serum Powder, as stark did to maximize his chance of getting one if he needed?

Excellent so far, though I admit to not having tested it as extensively as I'd like just yet. SB Serum Powder doesn't seem all that necessary when you consider that I won't always have to hit the Leylines both games 2 and 3 to win the match, considering I can hit them game 1. However, I suppose Powder's an intriguing option with the additional necessity to hit a Plague factored in. I'd have to cut Cursed Scroll to do it, however, and Scroll's too much of a bomb against Fish-style decks and as a kill condition against heavy control.


And non-graveyard based decks make Leyline... what's the word... worthless. :P I still find it hard to believe that graveyard based decks are so rampant that you're willing to run a card that is dead in other match ups.

Dead in what matchups, exactly? Leyline at least has -some- use against the following:

1. Any deck with a Tarmogoyf.
2. Any deck with Life From The Loam.
3. Survival, or any other deck with Squee, Genesis and Witness.
4. Cephalid Breakfast, Ichorid, or any combo deck that uses Ill-Gotten Gains.
5. Any deck with a Threshold card, be it Mongoose or Monestary.
6. Any deck with any sort of recursion, such as Regrowth in Train Wreck.
7. Any deck with Crucible of Worlds, such as Landstill or Stax.
8. Decks with Rotting Giant or Jotun Grunt, like Deadguy Ale or Red Death.
9. Any deck that has a flashback card in it, including Cabal Therapy or Flash of Insight.
10. Reanimator. Okay, I'm reaching here.

Leyline is currently -dead- against the following decks:

1. Goblins
2. Countersliver

Solutions to this problem after sideboarding?

1. Board out Leyline for Plague.
2. Board out Leyline for Plague. (EDIT: Or possibly Dystopia. Or possibly both.)

While Leyline isn't a bomb against some decks, almost every deck in existence has something graveyard related in it, because they think they can get away with it as long as there's not enough of it to warrant boarding in graveyard hate. Even the ever yard-hate resilient Aluren runs a Witness and sometimes a Deep Analysis, and even Goblins has talked about tossing in Wort, Boggart Auntie and Cabal Therapy, both of which would be hurt by Leyline.

People run Swords to Plowshares because it's useful against over 3/4 of the deck in the format. Leyline's useful against just slightly less.

[C.P.]

I agree with galroth when he says it doesn't function like a land, it functions like a dard ritual. you don't want to have one on the first two turns of the game, thats why only one or two should be run. You don't want this in your opening hand with one other swamp, hoping the opponent doesn't have a wasteland, becasue he probably does.

And you hope that the Lake is not functioning as land, in a deck that runs less than 20 lands? Most Sui Black decks need 2 mana to function properly, and to get 2 land assuming that your lake will get wastelanded, you need to draw 4 lands, including Lake. In my opinion, if we are going to up the land count, you need to sneak wastelands in, not the Lake.

[Tacosnape]

And you hope that the Lake is not functioning as land, in a deck that runs less than 20 lands? Most Sui Black decks need 2 mana to function properly, and to get 2 land assuming that your lake will get wastelanded, you need to draw 4 lands, including Lake. In my opinion, if we are going to up the land count, you need to sneak wastelands in, not the Lake.

Or Tomb of Urami, for that matter.

In any case, Lake of the Dead has no place in Legacy.

[JakeH]

Well... I don't know why more people aren't playing Suicide Black. It is incredibly fast, it can successfully screw up an opponent's game plan, and it has sideboard options that wreck many of the popular modern Legacy decks. This is the version that I run:

4-Nantuko Shade
4-Dark Confidant
4-Phyrexian Negator
4-Hypnotic Specter

4-Dark Ritual
4-Thoughtseize / Duress
4-Hymn to Tourach
4-Sinkhole
4-Umezawa's Jitte
4-Smother

4-Bloodstained Mire
4-Polluted Delta
12-Swamp

SB:
4-Leyline of the Void
4-Engineered Plague
4-Dystopia
3-Tsabo's Web

This build is very easy to play and incredibly consistent. Here are some answers to some sure-to-be-asked questions:

Why run smother? I would run "insert opinion here" instead.
-In my meta, smother kills everything with the exception of an Exalted Angel that has already been morphed. Diabolic Edict is another good choice of creature removal, but I prefer smother because it has a better chance of killing a Tarmogoyf. As for "Dead Draws" against creatureless decks, it really is not that big of a problem. The odds of drawing more than one before the game is over (considering "creatureless decks" to be combo or burn) is very unlikely.

Why do you run 4 jittes? That is lame considering you only have 16 creatures!
-Well... err... I don't know. If jitte hits the board, then I win. Active jitte on a shade is an absolute powerhouse.

Why do you run sinkholes, but no wastelands/ports? They are pointless and you're stupid!
-Cheap. Effective.

The rest shouldn't be up for questioning.




This deck performs well against Thresh and Breakfast. Landstill can be overrun. Burn is a crappy match. It can beat goblins. The deck has 24 disrupting cards, 8 cards that yield card-advantage, and 12 creatures that can win games by themselves. OK, my boss is about to let me go home so feel free to flame. L8rz...

[technogeek5000]

i wouldnt run 20 black sources, i always find myself getting flooded with 17. Also i dont think fetches are good in mono lists. The life loss seriously becomes a problem especially with thoughtsieze. Also you might want to lower your jitte count by 1. Multiples are never sexy.

Oh and for your board, take out leyline fro planar void. Tsabo's web might be good if your meta has LANDS and landstill but if its not then i would probably just find room for more combo/control hate in 4 duress.

[Tacosnape]

JakeH, why fetchlands, what with Stifle being on the rise and Fetchlands of your own making your Tarmogoyf problem worse?

[Berzerked]

You explain why you run Sinkhole, even in the absence of Wasteland, by why the absence of Wasteland? They pair with Bob/Sink/Gator very well.

[Ozymandias]

A piece of anti-Threshold tech.

Deepwood Legate
Creature-Shade
1/1
If an opponent controls a Forest and you control a Swamp, you may play Deepwood Legate without paying its mana cost.
B: Deepwood Legate gets +1/+1 until end of turn.

These are awesome if the opponent has a forest, and terrible the rest of the time.

[C.P.]

A piece of anti-Threshold tech.

Deepwood Legate
Creature-Shade
1/1
If an opponent controls a Forest and you control a Swamp, you may play Deepwood Legate without paying its mana cost.
B: Deepwood Legate gets +1/+1 until end of turn.

These are awesome if the opponent has a forest, and terrible the rest of the time.

Very interesting, but does not stop giant beating on your face. I wish it had evasion. Seems marginal, at best.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

In a deck that has such a low land count, you do not want a nonbasic land that eats one of your lands when it comes into play.

I heard something named Wasteland sees some play in the format.




Which would be why you don't want to see it before the late game. In the late game, however, the loss is minimal (even if Lake gets Wasted) so long as you can capitalize on the acceleration. That's the real issue, really: can Sui capitalize on it? And that, of course, will depend on your build and your metagame.

The Wasteland argument, however, holds little to no water when you're talking about one land slot. It's also a conditional argument dependent on specific metagames, but Goblins' decline and combo's rise have taken a lot of pressure away from the manabase. Yes, it's still there (especially in the form of Landstill and Loam decks), but it's really not so bad in the wider metagame.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

It's also a conditional argument dependent on specific metagames, but Goblins' decline and combo's rise have taken a lot of pressure away from the manabase. Yes, it's still there (especially in the form of Landstill and Loam decks), but it's really not so bad in the wider metagame.

Meh, I still think its way to early to say Goblin's are on the decline. Wait a few months and then we can be much better informed.

I have finally come to terms with my deck waffling. Yesterday I hated my deck, today I love it... I think I am just going to stick with this puppy for a while. I am curious to everyone's perception on how this deck plays, and the overall fun-ness of the deck. To me, its multi-layered disruption plan and great beats make this quite a lovely deck to pilot. Is the enjoyment you get playing this deck the main reason you pilot it?

[Galroth]

@ LordEvilTeaCup - I've always been fascinated with black since the beginning of the my Magic playing days. I imagine alot of it has just carried over through the year. Mono-black in particular just makes me hot. Black is the one color that really rewards you for going mono-color. I've always loved discard, black suicidal aggro, life draining effect, and reanimation. Don't know much about what it is... actually I'll take a shot at it. I like aggressive decks that keep games short, fast and furious, with alot of action packed in a very small space. Black tends toward this accepting mono-black control which is my least favourite of the mono-black builds.

I would also guess that part of the reason I play these decks is because I'm so use to them. They're comfortable. I know mono-black inside and out and I feel well versed in the theory. Toss me in a discussino about Landstill and I wouldn't know a damn thing. As is I've memorized every discard effect available, and I know that Vebulid is totally cool, but really only works in a suicide black deck that also runs Hatred. Ummm... so yeah, my enjoyment and my ability to pilot the deck competently are pretty much the motivators.

--
I haven't had the chance to play 43lands against this deck. How is the matchup? I would guess that suicide black does better than most aggro decks against 43lands, but 43lands was built to crush aggro. Would a full complement of Sinkholes and Wastelands make it a favorable matchup? In my experience Landstill has a poor game against suicide black. To much disruption back by too many huge beaters than can be slow-played quite effectively if necesarry. But 43lands plays quite a bit differently.
--

@ JakeH - I'd have to agree with everyone else that the fetches are a little out of place. I assume you're running them to thin your deck, but it's really not necesarry. The life loss can be a concern, the shuffle effect of a fetch is really irrelevant, and even though it is a slight concern, stifle and goyf are not pleasant with fetches. As threshold is probably the best deck and the most common deck in the format, slight advantages like this can add up. If you're really trying to thin your deck and not worried about the life loss, drop atleast 2 land and add in Dark Confidant.

@ Tacosnape - Heh.


Dead in what matchups, exactly? Leyline at least has -some- use against the following:

1. Any deck with a Tarmogoyf.
2. Any deck with Life From The Loam.
3. Survival, or any other deck with Squee, Genesis and Witness.
4. Cephalid Breakfast, Ichorid, or any combo deck that uses Ill-Gotten Gains.
5. Any deck with a Threshold card, be it Mongoose or Monestary.
6. Any deck with any sort of recursion, such as Regrowth in Train Wreck.
7. Any deck with Crucible of Worlds, such as Landstill or Stax.
8. Decks with Rotting Giant or Jotun Grunt, like Deadguy Ale or Red Death.
9. Any deck that has a flashback card in it, including Cabal Therapy or Flash of Insight.
10. Reanimator. Okay, I'm reaching here.

I'll concede the card isn't dead in these matchups. I guess I don't have much of a choice there. But seriously, this is the reason you're running Leyline!?

1. Tarmogoyf gets cut off from half of what makes him big. Leyline is a poor choice. Removal would be better. Planar Void would be better.
2-4. The good reasons you're considering this.
5. Your running Leyline maindeck to make roughly 4 cards in your opponents deck less effective. What?
6. Again, Leyline for this reason makes me sad. Unless said Deck is Aluren (you didn't include this one in your list :P).
7. Are we really worried about Crucible of Worlds in your build? Well, Wasteland isn't an issue. I suppose the recurring Mishra's they finally managed to put up on turn 4 are... scary? I suppose that's sarcasm, I'll try to keep it a little more objective.
8. Jotun Grunt becomes half as effective because he still gets to play with your graveyard, just not theirs. Rotting Giant is rendered useless, there go 3 of Red Death's cards for 4 of yours. Again why is Leyline maindecked for this?
9. What can I say?
10. You really are reaching.

Forgive my discription of calling Leyline a dead card. It was an ill-attempt at matching humor with my point. I admittedly used the term too loosely. I should have labeled it, what's the word... ineffective... against most decks. You proved your point.

Leyline is the epitome of a sideboard card. In game 1 you'll see it in your opening hand slightly less than half of the time. To hardcast it is too slow to be truly effective. And accepting a very few number of decks where it is excellent at stopping a combo, Leyline is otherwise a poor answer, even to most of the cards you noted. Planar Void would probably have been better for your argument, atleast it does take care of Tarmogoyf and Jotun Grunt. Not that I'd recommend maindecking that either.



Leyline is currently -dead- against the following decks:

1. Goblins
2. Countersliver


Mind if I add to the list?
3. UWb Fish (thought I'd cover the other DTB you missed)
4. Red Aggro be it burn, RG beats, etc.
5. Affinity
6. Enchantress
7. Belcher
8. Several others - The point is you missed alot. And you were reaching so hard in the other direction.



While Leyline isn't a bomb against some decks, almost every deck in existence has something graveyard related in it, because they think they can get away with it as long as there's not enough of it to warrant boarding in graveyard hate. Even the ever yard-hate resilient Aluren runs a Witness and sometimes a Deep Analysis, and even Goblins has talked about tossing in Wort, Boggart Auntie and Cabal Therapy, both of which would be hurt by Leyline.

People run Swords to Plowshares because it's useful against over 3/4 of the deck in the format. Leyline's useful against just slightly less.


Those somethings which are graveyard related in almost every(?) deck doesn't warrant maindeck inclusion of Leyline. The decks which Leyline is a bomb against, compose too little of the meta to warrant maindeck Leyline. I guess that's my position in brevity.

The comparison between Swords to Plowshares and Leyline of the Void is simply unjust. Name a deck that doesn't run creatures in Legacy? Solidarity? Truthfully StP isn't very good against fast-combo, but Sword to Plowshares flat stops creatures, which make up far, far, far more cards than those which use the graveyard in Legacy. Even those cards which do use the Graveyard are often not stopped by Leyline, instead they're just hampered a bit (Tarmogoyf, Jotun Grunt, recurring manlands, etc.). Unless it's graveyard combo, Leyline tends to effect maybe 4-8 cards in a deck. Swords to Plowshares kills creatures; how many decks are composed of how many creatures? To state that Leyline is useful against slightly less might as well be mockery.

--
Oh...


In any case, Lake of the Dead has no place in Legacy.

Glad to see you gave this some testing?

[C.P.]

6. Enchantress


Just jet you know, Confinement + Squee from enchantress is GG.
Replenish after couple discard spell also is. I hope you realize that Mono B Sui runs no answers to resolved enchantments. Enjoy your Replenish into Moat lolness.


The point is that the graveyard is becoming more and more important, it is not very strange to run an maindeck answer for it. It is bit chunky, but I would not dismiss it. It certainly very powerful in certain environment.



7. Are we really worried about Crucible of Worlds in your build? Well, Wasteland isn't an issue. I suppose the recurring Mishra's they finally managed to put up on turn 4 are... scary? I suppose that's sarcasm, I'll try to keep it a little more objective.


It is Scary, assuming that they answered all your threats by StP, WoG, Humility, EE, Deed, and others. This deck runs absolutely no form of card advantage, and recurring blocker is not something I'd scoff at.

BTW, 43 Lands is almost unwinnable, if they manage to drop Manabond and go nuts. Even if they don't, it is still a hard matchup.

@Goaswerfraiejen

If I was in lategame, what I want to do is scrolling them to death or something to that extent. Also, since your deck runs no other nonbasics, it seems kinda evident that they would have idle Wasteland on the board by then.

[largebrandon]

Leyline is actually the KILL card against affinity! It nullifies Modular, Disciple of the Vault, Chromatic Sphere, and Tarmogoyf.

[Ozymandias]

And does it also stop a 9/2 flying Ornithopter?

[technogeek5000]

no but snuff out/smother/swords to plowshares does. I played against affinity in the U sea at hadley and my removal took care of most of his annoying things. Also for that matter why are we even discussing about how leyline effects the affinity matchup. Leyline should not be maindecked... period. Out of all the reasons you gave to run maindeck leylines taco about 2 and 1/2 of them were actually legitimate. Against decks packing tarmogoyf it cans till get big off of your yard. Oh and decks that use loam (43 lands is essentially what im aiming for) they can easily play and win without it. The lands matchup is so hopelessly one sided that if i ever actually won a macth in tournament play i would eat all my scrublands (you can hold me to this). Survival is also a difficult matchup and robbing them of their squee isnt a game winning plan. Luckily this deck is very unpopular and usually doesnt matter after round three because it has been beat out by combo or thresh. Ill give you number 4 because those are the matchups that its actually game winning. 5 and six are stretches especially six. Crucible of the world is helpful to stax but they can also play around it or smoke it off the board. The rest of your reasons are so miniscule that they actually help your opponent because you would be better off playing a piece of disruption or beater.

To make a long argument short, leyline doesnt belong in the maindeck and in the sideboard it gets outclassed by planar void because planar void hits goyf harder.

[Ozymandias]

The only way to win the 43 land matchup is with Blood Moon. I think I'll splash red just for them.

[Galroth]

Is it really that bad? I haven't played it. I kinda figured that 4x Duress and 4x Thoughtseize would be fairly good at taking out Exploration and Mulch. Then I also run 4x Sinkhole and 4x Wasteland. Still not good enough to slow 43lands down while you beat? I was betting that if an aggro/aggro-control deck had a chance it would be sui-black.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

@ LordEvilTeaCup - I've always been fascinated with black since the beginning of the my Magic playing days. I imagine alot of it has just carried over through the year. Mono-black in particular just makes me hot. Black is the one color that really rewards you for going mono-color. I've always loved discard, black suicidal aggro, life draining effect, and reanimation. Don't know much about what it is... actually I'll take a shot at it. I like aggressive decks that keep games short, fast and furious, with alot of action packed in a very small space. Black tends toward this accepting mono-black control which is my least favourite of the mono-black builds.

I would also guess that part of the reason I play these decks is because I'm so use to them. They're comfortable. I know mono-black inside and out and I feel well versed in the theory. Toss me in a discussino about Landstill and I wouldn't know a damn thing. As is I've memorized every discard effect available, and I know that Vebulid is totally cool, but really only works in a suicide black deck that also runs Hatred. Ummm... so yeah, my enjoyment and my ability to pilot the deck competently are pretty much the motivators.



Yeah, I find I have similar reasons for Sui Black. Its once again my favorite deck, and I kind of see it in a new light.

Either Wretch or Jailer or the only GY hate you would MB. However, for the SB depending how things go maybe the 4 leyline and 4 Serums powder should be in effect.

[Ozymandias]

Well, all they need to do is drop one land accelerant, of which they're running an effective 11-12 copies with Gamble, and all of a sudden, resource denial becomes a big fat lie.

You simply can't beat enough before their CA engines crush you. Maze of Ith is a huge problem, Nantuko monastery doubly so.

The best opening is going to be something insane like 2xRitual, Hymn, Negator and pray.

[Tacosnape]

Mind if I add to the list?
3. UWb Fish (thought I'd cover the other DTB you missed)
4. Red Aggro be it burn, RG beats, etc.
5. Affinity
6. Enchantress
7. Belcher
8. Several others - The point is you missed alot. And you were reaching so hard in the other direction.

My assertions were not half as incorrect as your failed attempts at correcting them.

3. UWB Fish runs Jotun Grunt. (You're 0 for 1.)
4A. RG Beats runs Tarmogoyf. (You're 0 for 2.)
4B. "Red Aggro" in Legacy constitutes as Goblins, which I listed. (You're 0 for 3.)
4C. Burn is a valid point if not a highly viable deck. Fortunately Umezawa's Jitte wins this matchup. (You're 1 for 4.)
5. Leyline stops Disciple of the Vault. (You're 1 for 5.)
6. Leyline stops Replenish and Holistic Wisdom. (You're 1 for 6.)
7. Okay, fine. I missed -one- actually viable deck. Leyline blows against Belcher. Board it and some Jump Knights out for Plague and Needle. (You're 2 for 6.)
8. "Several Others" did not show up as a Deck Name in any thread. I tested this with the search function. (You're 2 for 7.)

Therefore the underlying point of my assertion is completely correct. There is something in almost every matchup that Leyline will do for you.

As to whether it warrants the Leyline maindeck, no, none of the reasons listed above warrant it on their own. But the fact that it swings several matchups from heavily unfavorable to slightly-to-moderately favored (This includes Threshold, Cephalid Breakfast, Ichorid, and Survival), in addition to the point that it does -something- against almost everything, makes it good enough for me and certainly debatable for inclusion. It's certainly better than garbage like Sinkhole, and the only thing I'd consider moving it to board for would be more pro-white guys or maindeck Scrolls/Needles.

As far as Lake of the Dead goes, I have no need to test this any more than I have a need to test Drudge Skeletons. I have a fairly fundamental grasp of the basics of deckbuilding enough to know when a card is bad, and most people with similar grasp would be fully aware that Lake of the Dead has no place in this deck.


Well, all they need to do is drop one land accelerant, of which they're running an effective 11-12 copies with Gamble, and all of a sudden, resource denial becomes a big fat lie.

You simply can't beat enough before their CA engines crush you. Maze of Ith is a huge problem, Nantuko monastery doubly so.

The best opening is going to be something insane like 2xRitual, Hymn, Negator and pray.

Alternately, this is where I find a 4-set of Pithing Needles in sideboard to be a godsend. Leyline can help keep them off Loam and Needle will keep them off Maze and whatever else the big threat at the time is (Megaliths if they run it, if not a Manland or Cycle Land if they get Loam going.)

Having Cursed Scroll can be beneficial too, as it can randomly allow you to simply throw damage at their face for the win assuming they don't run Zuran Orb.

The matchup still isn't good, though. It won't be without Wasteland (If even that's enough to stop it), and I personally struggle mentally to run Wasteland in the same deck as Hymn, Shade, and all the other :b::b: guys. Tsabo's Web might be a bomb here too.

[Baumeister]

8. "Several Others" did not show up as a Deck Name in any thread. I tested this with the search function. (You're 2 for 7.)

Hahahaha....

The fact is that Leyline is completely amazing against most decks in this format. The graveyard has become one of the most useful tools in growing your creatures, combo-ing off, and disrupting the opponent. Just as Taco said, Swords to Plowshares is useful against about 3/4 of the field and nobody complains about including those in a deck. In fact, it's considered an "auto-include". Leyline has become about as useful. The Stark Suicide Black deck was practically made to run Leyline, and therefore it should be run. Yeah, it sucks in multiples, but it's such a huge bomb in crippling decks in the early game so you can get a step up on them. Leylines become less valuable in Anwar's version of Suicide, but they're still a good sideboard card. All in all, run them regardless because they almost always come in handy.

[JakeH]

In response to several replies regarding fetch lands:

I prefer to thin out the deck. The only time I have ever regretted running them is when I run into a Burn deck. Otherwise, I do not want to draw more than 5 lands. If I draw 2 fetches and 3 swamps out of 15 draws (these are the statistical expectations), then out of the remaining 45 cards only 13 of them are land. 6 fetch and 7 swamps. This makes it a little over 4% less likely that I will draw a land with my next draw at the cost of only 2 life. Now each time I draw a card, it will become less likely that i will draw a land and more likely that i will draw a fetch land instead of a swamp. This is the point where the fetch damage begins to take a toll. Thinning the deck makes Dark Confidant hurt more - a lot more. But its not like you can't burn him with a jitte or negator. You just have to be careful. However, by the time you play fetch # 3 the deck has become more of an engine - pumping cheap cards into your hand that hit the board as soon as you get them.

Now about tarmogoyf: You are just as likely to draw a Smother as your opponent is to draw a goyf AND with 12 cards that cause your opponent to discard cards, it is likely that goyf does not reach the board.

Now about stifle: Let them do it... i think that is a waste of stifle. stop them from fetching a land... please...

Now about not running wasteland: Dunno... just personal preference. they don't pump shades


I've tried a build that ran 4 wasteland and 17 swamp but i would always draw more land than i wanted and my opponents would fetch basics. Both land selections are good - i just prefer to run the fetches. Hell, a couple of weeks ago i was playing D+T and had 3 wastelands and 3 R.Ports on the board against UGr Thresh. HE DREW NO DUALS - ONLY BASICS AND FETCH!!!! WTF!!! Glowrider and ports slowed him down but he eventually killed me with a fledgling dragon. whatev...

[C.P.]

Now about stifle: Let them do it... i think that is a waste of stifle. stop them from fetching a land... please...

When you run low land count like 18, you cant just say, 'sure, that's good for me', wait untill you are stuck on 1 lands for the longest time and lose.

Also, the deck does not run much effects to be stifked, so it is very resonable to Stifle a fetch. What, are you going to stifle a shade activation?

[JakeH]

When you run low land count like 18, you cant just say, 'sure, that's good for me', wait untill you are stuck on 1 lands for the longest time and lose.

Also, the deck does not run much effects to be stifked, so it is very resonable to Stifle a fetch. What, are you going to stifle a shade activation?

hopefully the opponent will side them out - thats what i would do if i were them. besides, i run 20 lands and 4 dark rits. odds are that i would still have 2 lands in play after 2nd draw and i might even get to drop a negator via dark rit. Getting mana screwed is just part of playing magic - stifle is not intimidating.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

It's certainly better than garbage like Sinkhole,

Sinkhole is not garbage. You can say the metagame if moving away from a need for LD, but to call it garbage is too far. Even with metagame in mind, attacks on the mana base are still a pretty viable strategy.

[technogeek5000]

Ok i am refusing to post in this thread from here on till i place with the deck... im realy just tired of arguing with people then have a new person join the conversation bringing up the same damn points. I might come back occasionally and check up on things but i will not discuss topics that have already been covered 3 or 4 times previously. If you want to know about correct side board hate or the correct piece of removal then just look it up. If i have to explain why snuff out and smother are both better then diabolic edict(or conaigon for that matter) again then... well i dont realy know. The discussion on Suicide black is not getting anywhere because new people just bring up everything over again. Its fine to post your decklist and if people suggest to run better versions of removal and hate then that is fine. What should be being discussed in this thread are things like sideboarding in matchups, tournament results (for all the people that post in this thread it seems like i am the only one who actually tops 8), metagaming, etc... I dont want to sound like an ass, but seriously, this deck wont get anywhere unless we can all agree on the basics.

First off, sinkhole... garbage, my ass. Sinkhole is great against thresh no matter what they tell you. They only run 18 lands and if they choose to counter it, then you just play another must answer spell. Sinkhole is also great against breakfast for the same reason. It acts as a legacy time walk or better and randomly screws people off of colors. Combined with waste it is realy devastating.

Also, maindeck leyline... where did that come from. Thresh, breakfast, and ichorid (im not even gonna count survival because the archetype is virtually unplayed) do not make up more then 20% of the meta. Maybe in larger tournaments the percentage will be higher but it still is irrelevant. If you play leyline maindeck just ask yourself after the game is over if the card would have been better off just being a creature or beater. Thresh can still play around this because they side in krosan grips against us and tarmo will still get big from our yard.

[FoolofaTook]

Sinkhole is not garbage. You can say the metagame if moving away from a need for LD, but to call it garbage is too far. Even with metagame in mind, attacks on the mana base are still a pretty viable strategy.

If Sinkhole and Wasteland are both part of the plan for a Sui Black deck then Paralyze becomes a very effective 1cc answer to the opponents cheap fatties, like Goyf, Grunt and Negator. It's very hard to achieve and maintain 4 mana early to midgame when the opponent has 8 landkill in the deck. Later on if you haven't won yet the opponent has to tap out to untap his endgame killer.

There's a lot of old tech that's weak in its separate components but fairly strong when it's used synergistically. The old combo was Sinkhole/Stripmine/Paralyze, which of course was a bit stronger.

[Galroth]

I like to sideboard a bit of smallpox. I'm in complete agreement with Techno et al. that Sinkhole is not garbage. Land destruction has been quite effective for me against Threshold, alot of control matchups, and basically everything that runs 3 colors.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

If Sinkhole and Wasteland are both part of the plan for a Sui Black deck then Paralyze becomes a very effective 1cc answer to the opponents cheap fatties, like Goyf, Grunt and Negator. It's very hard to achieve and maintain 4 mana early to midgame when the opponent has 8 landkill in the deck. Later on if you haven't won yet the opponent has to tap out to untap his endgame killer.

There's a lot of old tech that's weak in its separate components but fairly strong when it's used synergistically. The old combo was Sinkhole/Stripmine/Paralyze, which of course was a bit stronger.

Wow, I never heard of Paralyze before. I don't know, I kinda like it. Not sure if it makes the cut, but it is by no means a weak card. Its a shame it doesn't have flash, because then it would go right in my deck. Heh, do you have anymore old tech that you are holding back on?

I think we should debate Smother versus Snuff Out further. Things have changed with the advent of Thoughtseize. The life loss can get a bit over the top and smother is looking better and better. Also, smother is not dead in the mirror (not sure how much that matters) and against black creatures. If you are not running Bob, than I think its more or less a no-brainer. I would take Snuff out any day of the week. However taking in account a deck running Bob and Thoughtseize, which would be more optimal? Snuff Out is tempo advantage and its more mana available for your Shade. I think its a close call.

I am starting to reconsider Chrome Mox. I don't want to use it, because I feel it adds a lot of randomness. However, its pretty awesome.

[DeepfriedDynamite]

I thought everyone knew about paralyze. I dont run it because it is worse then snuff out/smother. Its not good long game because you give your opponent the option to use it. Id rather kill the goyf then just delay it for a few turns. Its not bad but there are better options.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I thought everyone knew about paralyze. I dont run it because it is worse then snuff out/smother. Its not good long game because you give your opponent the option to use it. Id rather kill the goyf then just delay it for a few turns. Its not bad but there are better options.

Yeah its not bad, but Smother and Snuff Out are better. Still, I think its pretty interesting with LD. So, there is still the Smother versus Snuff Out question.

[Ozymandias]

The only situations where Snuff Out is worse are
1) Against black creatures with CC>3(The mirror, psychatog)
2) Burn (Terrible anyway)

Against any deck with critters, the ability to continue with your plan (Jitte'd Shade/Hyppie/Gator etc.) while simultaneously screwing with theirs (Ritual, Hyppie, Snuff your Lackey) is invaluable. Or vs. Thresh, Duress, Snuff your Tarmogoyf

[LordEvilTeaCup]

The only situations where Snuff Out is worse are
1) Against black creatures with CC>3(The mirror, psychatog)
2) Burn (Terrible anyway)

Against any deck with critters, the ability to continue with your plan (Jitte'd Shade/Hyppie/Gator etc.) while simultaneously screwing with theirs (Ritual, Hyppie, Snuff your Lackey) is invaluable. Or vs. Thresh, Duress, Snuff your Tarmogoyf

Keep in mind that the Suicide curve is a bit higher now with Thoughtseize. I am still in favor of Snuff Out, but smother has moved up a notch in my esteem. Thoughtseize can act as first turn preemptive removal, and that slightly lessnes the need of Snuff Outs speed. Also, I use eat me zombies, bob, and thoughtseize so I think your build is probably the biggest consideration. Meh, its Suicide Black for a reason.

[Tacosnape]

The discussion on Suicide black is not getting anywhere because new people just bring up everything over again. I dont want to sound like an ass, but seriously, this deck wont get anywhere unless we can all agree on the basics.


That's because your grasp of the basics is wrong.



First off, sinkhole... garbage, my ass. Sinkhole is great against thresh no matter what they tell you. They only run 18 lands and if they choose to counter it, then you just play another must answer spell. Sinkhole is also great against breakfast for the same reason. It acts as a legacy time walk or better and randomly screws people off of colors. Combined with waste it is realy devastating.

Sinkhole is terrible against Threshold for three reasons.

1. It walks into Spell Snare.
2. It walks into Daze, which counters it regardless of how much mana you have available.
3. When Threshold is on the play, it can get any necessary threats down before you can play Sinkhole and try to take it off of a color.

Sinkhole is terrible against the format for the following reasons:

1. Vial Goblins, Death and Taxes, Cephalid Breakfast, and several rogue decks run Aether Vial.
2. Landstill, Lands!, Stax, and several rogue decks pack either Life From The Loam or Crucible of Worlds.
3. Certain decks, like Ichorid and Burn, can function with bare minimum manabases.
4. Targeted Land Destruction by itself is a losing strategy in the long run.


Also, maindeck leyline... where did that come from. Thresh, breakfast, and ichorid (im not even gonna count survival because the archetype is virtually unplayed) do not make up more then 20% of the meta. Maybe in larger tournaments the percentage will be higher but it still is irrelevant. If you play leyline maindeck just ask yourself after the game is over if the card would have been better off just being a creature or beater. Thresh can still play around this because they side in krosan grips against us and tarmo will still get big from our yard.

Tarmogoyf is going to get big from my yard how, exactly? I don't run a land other than a basic swamp, so the odds of a land hitting my yard are slim. I don't mill things into my yard or cast a lot of spells for card advantage. I also only run 4 instants (Ritual) and 4 artifacts (Jitte) in the entire deck, so the chances of me not getting both into the yard are very high. My enchantments are Leyline and Sarcomancy, and the rest is just creatures and sorceries. I find with a Leyline out Tarmogoyfs rarely get over about 3/4 midgame and 1/2 or sometimes 2/3 early, all of which are more than manageable via Nantuko Shade, Jitte, or Order of the Ebon Hand.

Survival's virtually unplayed? What planet are you from? Last I heard Survival was everywhere in the large tournaments, and there's always a Survival deck or two at the locals. And it just made 2nd place at the most recent tournament on the Historical Top 8 thread.

I've also seen single Tournaments, large ones, where Threshold alone makes up almost 20% of the meta. Threshold, Ichorid, Breakfast, Loam Decks, and Survival decks can easily make up almost half of it. Hell, Leyline was a bomb against seven of the Top Eight decks at Gencon, and moderately useful against the 8th.

What you also have to consider is the degree Leyline influences a game. You don't beat Ichorid without it, and you probably don't beat Cephalid Breakfast without it. You can beat Threshold without it, but you'll lose more often than you win. Loam control decks will eat your face without it and maindeck Leyline makes game one around 50-50, depending on the Loam build. The only other cards I've ever wanted in its slot maindeck were Needle, Plague, and more pro-white beaters, and the situations where I want Leyline main outnumber all of the other three.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

That's because your grasp of the basics is wrong.


Woah there, you don't pull any punches do you? Although I disagree with your analysis on sinkhole, I think you might have convinced me to have some MB GY hate such as Leyline. Do you suggest running 4 MB? Any less and you might as well run Planar Void instead. Even with four leyline, it very often doesn't find itself in your opening hand. I was thinking of bringing back the leyline and serum power game plan into my SB. Anyway, I look forward to your thoughts on this and who knows... maybe your candor too.

[Tacosnape]

Woah there, you don't pull any punches do you? Although I disagree with your analysis on sinkhole, I think you might have convinced me to have some MB GY hate such as Leyline. Do you suggest running 4 MB? Any less and you might as well run Planar Void instead. Even with four leyline, it very often doesn't find itself in your opening hand. I was thinking of bringing back the leyline and serum power game plan into my SB. Anyway, I look forward to your thoughts on this and who knows... maybe your candor too.

My candor appears and disappears based on how sure I am in regards to a subject, card choice, fundamental theory, or whatnot (For example, I'll happily tell anyone that Sinkhole sucks and Lake of the Dead even moreso, but I'll be more hesitant to answer questions over what's superior between Stromgald Crusader and Order of the Ebon Hand because I don't really know,) so to either your chagrin/delight, I can't tell you I'm absolutely positive about the quantity of maindecked Leylines. I've thought about going to 2 or 3 in an attempt to get my Pro-White guy count up to 7 or 8, but for now I'm sticking with four. But I'd still run less than four before I'd run Planar Void.

Now, don't get me wrong. Planar Void is an -awesome- card. I don't like Planar Void in Suicide Black or Red Death, but I'd pick it over Leyline in a deck like Deadguy Ale (Which, incidentally, I think makes fantastic use of Sinkhole where Sui Black does not.)

The difference between Planar Void and Leyline of the Void, I feel, is in how well a deck can play the long game. Whereas a Deadguy Ale can sometimes win a 10-15 turn game, Suicide Black hates the long game more than anything. This is in large part because we rely on pre-emptive discard and powerful spells that are undercosted in mana at the expense of our life totals. I can't even begin to count the games with Suicide Black where I had exactly enough aggression and disruption to beat through at the last possible second before my opponent stabilized permanently and seized the game.

Therefore, tossing all the arguments aside about how Leyline is uncounterable, or how Planar is better against Tarmogoyf, the decision maker for me is this: That one single black mana you spend dropping a Planar Void can kill you more often than you can even imagine. That's a Carnophage or a Sarcomancy or a Duress or a Thoughtseize or a Needle you aren't playing. Leyline makes absolutely no demands whatsoever on your mana whatsoever, allowing you to dedicate all of your resources to disrupting and clobbering your opponent while they figure out how to deal with your Leyline.

This is the same exact reason I don't run Planar Void in Goblins. I want something that doesn't slow down my aggression, be it Leyline or Crypt. I think in more aggressive decks Leyline is the correct choice over Planar Void.

As for Serum Powder, maybe. It's only as good as the cards you want to find, meaning in matches where Plague/Leyline/Dystopia are nothing short of godsends, it's fantastic, and in all other matches it blows. I'm not liking the three slots in my sideboard that are Cursed Scrolls, and I currently want to try Dark Confidant out in those three slots to see if it helps in certain matchups where I need more threats and more cards. If Confidant proves to be underwhelming (And I should know quickly since my metagame is like, half control) then I'd contemplate giving Serum Powder a shot, I suppose.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

As for Serum Powder, maybe. It's only as good as the cards you want to find, meaning in matches where Plague/Leyline/Dystopia are nothing short of godsends, it's fantastic, and in all other matches it blows. I'm not liking the three slots in my sideboard that are Cursed Scrolls, and I currently want to try Dark Confidant out in those three slots to see if it helps in certain matchups where I need more threats and more cards. If Confidant proves to be underwhelming (And I should know quickly since my metagame is like, half control) then I'd contemplate giving Serum Powder a shot, I suppose.

If Serum powder is only as good as the cards you want to find, then I think it should be reconsidered. Leyline, Plague, and Dystopia are all bombs. I could be wrong, but I feel serum would be a strong play. The main problem is of course room... but like you said a lot of the meta is thresh. Powder would greatly help here in multiple respects.

Your dissertation on Leyline and Planar Void were to my delight. Not sure how much that means to you, but hey just throwing it out there.

[Tacosnape]

If Serum powder is only as good as the cards you want to find, then I think it should be reconsidered. Leyline, Plague, and Dystopia are all bombs. I could be wrong, but I feel serum would be a strong play. The main problem is of course room... but like you said a lot of the meta is thresh. Powder would greatly help here in multiple respects.

Leyline, Plague, and Dystopia are all bombs against certain decks. What about when facing something like TES or Solidarity, where these cards are only moderately useful? What about facing something randomly jankalicious, like Dryad Sligh? What about against Landstill?

You also have to keep in mind that Serum Powder is a very weak draw in the deck. The only thing you can do with it at all once the game begins is to maybe drop it turn three in hopes that you somehow get a Jitte on your next draw and can Play/Equip/Swing. Suicide Black fiends for black mana, and not only does Serum Powder only produce colorless, it also costs equal to or more than the rest of the entire deck.

In certain situations, Powder could be a house, I'll admit, so I won't dismiss it offhand. Plague and Leyline are insane against the format, and Dystopia's a lifesaver when you need it, and even Powder Mulliganing for Needles or Jittes or Pro-White guys could be a godsend. But it definitely has its drawbacks.

I think the real question concerns what you're putting in your sideboard. To me, Suicide Black's standard sideboard is as follows:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Pithing Needle

However, since I maindeck the 4 Leylines, my sideboard shifts to

4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
4 Pithing Needle
3 ???

And I'm still searching for that third slot. Cursed Scroll has blown, despite how much I love it in the slower, more controlling Deadguy Ale. The fourth Needle has been insane, letting me steal tons of games against Landstill and Lands! and other control decks I have no business beating. So the remaining 3 slots could be Serum Powder. Right now for me they're Dark Confidant, which should in theory (These being the operative words) help my control and/or combo matches. I might also attempt them being Smother and/or Meekstone.



Your dissertation on Leyline and Planar Void were to my delight. Not sure how much that means to you, but hey just throwing it out there.

It means a good bit, actually. I appreciate it.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I think we have to play it big and risky with this deck. It can serious hate on Thresh, Breakfast, and Ichorid. I say go for it! To place anywhere with Sui, we are going to have to risk losing to random janky decks or other matchups that are pretty rare and having no outs against others. It is less risky doing that know, than it was in the past. So many Thresh players, so many fun ways of pissing them off.

[Galroth]

@ Tacosnape -


Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000 http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=171852#post171852)
The discussion on Suicide black is not getting anywhere because new people just bring up everything over again. I dont want to sound like an ass, but seriously, this deck wont get anywhere unless we can all agree on the basics.

That's because your grasp of the basics is wrong.


That's twice now I've heard you purport to some superior knowledge of the basics. Either explicate in context what you're talking about, or keep this kind of shit to yourself.

LEYLINE vs PLANAR
I want to be clear on my understanding of why you think Leyline of the Void is superior to Planar Void. Aside from Leyline being uncounterable, you think the tempo generated by Leyline of the Void makes it a superior card despite it targeting only the opponents graveyard, and having a prohibitive casting cost if not in your opening hand? Is this a fairly accurate summation? (Also assuming we're speaking of your particular build of suicide black.)

And why would you consider running Leyline as anything less than 4x in your mainboard? I would think that unless you see Leyline in your opening hand, Planar void is strictly superior. Dropping even a single card would drastically drop your percent chance of seeing one in your opening hand. I wouldn't then see any reason for running Leyline over Planar unless you were also including Serum Powder or additional Leylines for games 2 and 3.

Or, why not Yixlid Jailer? In my opinion, he's effective hate in the matchups you actually need graveyard hate for (read: Ichorid, Breakfast, Survival, loam variants), and a body otherwise. Admittedly Jailer is slow, but in game 1, if you choose to drop to less than 4x graveyard hate, he's still quicker than Leyline of the Void when it's not in your opening hand which would be the majority of the time.

SINKHOLE
I want to hear more on why you think Sinkhole is a quality card in Deadguy (and possibly Red Death) where in suicide black you so casually call it garbage. Should I assume you're referring to your particular build of suicide black also? I would agree it's not optimal in your build (which is considerably different from calling it garbage). What of Anwar's build that begins this thread? The two builds play considerably differently. What of a build incorporating Chrome Mox also, and 2x smallpox in the sideboard - read: my build. This blanket statement of sinkhole being garbage is too much for me to swallow without additional clarification. To address some of your claims:



Sinkhole is terrible against the format for the following reasons:

1. Vial Goblins, Death and Taxes, Cephalid Breakfast, and several rogue decks run Aether Vial.
2. Landstill, Lands!, Stax, and several rogue decks pack either Life From The Loam or Crucible of Worlds.
3. Certain decks, like Ichorid and Burn, can function with bare minimum manabases.
4. Targeted Land Destruction by itself is a losing strategy in the long run.


While I couldn't agree more with point 4. I think the tempo generated by sinkhole, allowing one to hit with a Negator, or a Hyppie an additional time is more than worth its inclusion. I believe the tempo swing is the primary reason sinkhole is run in suicide black, rather than for land denial purposes; this is just a bonus if your opponent has kept a bad hand. Against Goblins, D&T, Breakfast, and the control decks this seems reason enough. Against burn and Ichorid it is admittedly more useless. But it does slow their tempo offering a better chance to seize control of the game. It's not as if you can race either deck, so to my mind it's what the gameplan should be anyways.

[Ozymandias]

I think a good choice for the board is probably Chalice of the Void, especially if you're running Negators/Hyppies/Snuff Out/pitch cards. Chalice can simply lock some decks out of their core strategies, while allowing you to do something useful with the mana costs you have left. Given that you're going to be ritualling and duressing/siezing first turn anyway, it's not like you're going to be losing all that much in terms of uncast cards. You might even have an use for them in the form of pitch cards. Also, just dropping Chalice at 0 can be a major pain for any of the storm combo decks.

I'm going to try a list with maindeck Leyline and see how it shakes out.

16 Critters(Shade, Negator, Hyppie, ???)
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Snuff Out
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Dark Ritual
20 Swamp

SB:
3 Dystopia
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle

[Tacosnape]

@Galroth: I will ignore your abrasive manner, but grant your request. I will explain, and I will explain thoroughly, in detail.


LEYLINE vs PLANAR
I want to be clear on my understanding of why you think Leyline of the Void is superior to Planar Void. Aside from Leyline being uncounterable, you think the tempo generated by Leyline of the Void makes it a superior card despite it targeting only the opponents graveyard, and having a prohibitive casting cost if not in your opening hand? Is this a fairly accurate summation? (Also assuming we're speaking of your particular build of suicide black.)

You are exactly correct. Suicide Black has absolutely no draw whatsoever, so the odds of hitting a Leyline off the top of your deck when it's relevant are incredibly slim.

The key phrase is when it's relevant. If you draw Leyline of the Void on turn four, you might not be able to cast it. If you draw Planar Void on turn four, you will be. The point, however, is that neither one of them does you a damn bit of good on turn four. By turn four, most decks that are going to place significant relevance on the graveyard has already done so, and you will have helped greatly in adding to graveyards by playing your discard spells.

Therefore, in all but a very few circumstances (Loam, for example, takes until around turn six) Planar Void is as dead of a draw on turn four as Leyline is.

Depending on the deck, this can happen much earlier. Threshold will have a Tarmogoyf at epic proportions by turn 3 and pretty big by turn 2. Ichorid will have you in dire straits by turn 2 and might by turn one. Therefore, drawing either Void from this point onwards is useless.

Therefore, barring the occasional time when it's your 8th card, you're going to get most use you get out of these cards when they're in your opening hand. And there's no dispute about what the better card to have in your opening hand is.

Clear enough?



And why would you consider running Leyline as anything less than 4x in your mainboard? I would think that unless you see Leyline in your opening hand, Planar void is strictly superior. Dropping even a single card would drastically drop your percent chance of seeing one in your opening hand. I wouldn't then see any reason for running Leyline over Planar unless you were also including Serum Powder or additional Leylines for games 2 and 3.

This is mathematically flawed reasoning.

Dropping down to 3 Leylines decreases the chances of seeing this in your opening hand, but in no way does it increase the chances of you drawing a dead one. In fact, it decreases the chances of you drawing a dead one! Therefore by dropping to 3 Leylines you actually make your deck more consistent, not less so. You just won't get a Leyline as often. And when I say this, I don't just mean an opening hand Leyline, but a Leyline off the top as well.

Similarly, when comparing 3 Leylines versus 3 Planar Voids, the same arguments I made earlier still apply. You decrease the chance of getting one in your opening hand, but you've similarly decreased the chance of peeling one in those early relevant draws.

Therefore, in a deck with no draw, there is absolutely no reason not to run Leyline over Planar Void due to any reasons based on the quantity of the card.

Make sense?



Or, why not Yixlid Jailer? In my opinion, he's effective hate in the matchups you actually need graveyard hate for (read: Ichorid, Breakfast, Survival, loam variants), and a body otherwise. Admittedly Jailer is slow, but in game 1, if you choose to drop to less than 4x graveyard hate, he's still quicker than Leyline of the Void when it's not in your opening hand which would be the majority of the time.

Because Jailer is incredibly fragile, does absolutely nothing against Tarmogoyf, does absolutely nothing against a Flashback or Threshold card, does absolutely nothing against Squee or Genesis, costs two mana, and generally sucks.


SINKHOLE
I want to hear more on why you think Sinkhole is a quality card in Deadguy (and possibly Red Death) where in suicide black you so casually call it garbage.

Here's what I think about Sinkhole and why.

1. Sinkhole is good (worth running) in Deadguy Ale.
2. Sinkhole is decent (possibly/probably worth running) in Red Death.
3. Sinkhole is garbage (definitely not worth running) in Suicide Black decks that don't run Snuff Out.
4. Sinkhole is okay (but not worth running) in Suicide Black decks that run Snuff Out.

The reason Sinkhole or any targeted land destruction with the intent to deny an opponent mana is bad in general is that you're taking limited shots at the most replacable resource in magic without a guarantee of significant gains if the opponent can replace it, which he will more often than not. What does Goblins get by slowing the game down a turn? Vial Counters, or in the case of Port, a chance to hit more land drops.

What does Suicide Black gain? Nothing, unless it already has the board advantage at the time. Furthermore, no deck has a worse long game than Suicide Black, so why on earth would you want to play a card that extends the game?

Now, Sinkhole's great if you happen to be holding a ritual, or you get some awesome turn one Rit/Negator hand. But sometimes you're going to be on the play and go Swamp/Duress/Go, followed by turn two Swamp/Sinkhole/Go, and if they have another land, you've spent the first two turns of the game without developing a threat on the board. You lose.

Now, the qualifying thing that makes Sinkhole better in the other black decks is the ability for those other decks to seize an initiative it has lost where Suicide Black cannot.

In Red Death, if the opponent is beating on you early, and you take some time to hit their hand and manabase, you can grab the momentum back by dropping a combination of bolts and fatties. Remember, Red Death has guys like Rotting Giant, who's a damn good blocker before he gets his first swing in.

Deadguy Ale, however, can go on the defensive in a way no other black aggro-control deck can. It can back up Sinkhole with Vindicate to either totally wreck your manabase if you missed your recovery land drop, or to pick off your biggest threat (Tarmogoyf or whatnot.) It can then use the remainder of its resources (STP, Plague, Scroll), combined with card advantage from Dark Confidant, to stabilize before dropping out its threats. And on the whole, Deadguy Ale's threats are more suited for being big, fat, and defending for a turn if need be.

Suicide Black, unless you're running Snuff Out, can't do this. Suicide Black can not stabilize with any remote consistency after it has lost the initiative, and Sinkhole will certainly not do anything to help this situation (Whereas, say, Umezawa's Jitte can and will.)

Snuff Out helps, but in my opinion doesn't do enough to warrant Sinkhole's inclusion. Sinkhole is only good if you've already got the initiative and are trying to keep it. Sinkhole will not do you any good if you're trying to regain the initiative you've lost, which is how you lose most of your games.

Hope that helps.

[Nihil Credo]

Because Jailer is incredibly fragile, does absolutely nothing against Tarmogoyf, does absolutely nothing against a Flashback or Threshold card, does absolutely nothing against Squee or Genesis, costs two mana, and generally sucks.
Jailer actually turns off Flashback, Squee, and Genesis fairly well.

The easiest way to figure out how Jailer works is to read it as "Cards in graveyards have blank text boxes".

[Ozymandias]

The point is that Jailer dies to all of the commonly played removal short of Snuff Out and Ghastly Demise. Leyline requires a maindeck answer to enchantments game 1. A lot of decks pack it, in the form of Engineered Explosives, but they can't reliably pop it for four.

[nitewolf9]

The point is that Jailer dies to all of the commonly played removal short of Snuff Out and Ghastly Demise. Leyline requires a maindeck answer to enchantments game 1. A lot of decks pack it, in the form of Engineered Explosives, but they can't reliably pop it for four.

Maindecking leyline of the void seems pretty terrible, especially in suicide black. For one thing, against an unknown opponent you don't know if you should try to mulligan for it, and for another it increases dead draws. This deck can't afford dead draws as it has no way to recoup the card disadvantage or shuffle bad cards away. In the board it is fine but you are also forgetting jailer's strength against decks like breakfast and ichorid in that they will not usually have creature removal to deal with him. Breakfast cannot use stern proctor against a creature and if ichorid chains one you can much more easily replay it. I guess it will die to volcanic spray but I'm not sure if many ichorid builds even run that card. Also, jailer can carry a jitte.

Look at the decks you will need the hate against and decide based on that. I don't think threshold should be a consideration when looking at yard hate. If you plan to win by attacking their graveyard you will probably lose as this creature called "tarmogoyf" now exists. Blowing up their creatures with Dystopia is a much stronger option.

[JakeH]

Leyline, Plague, and Dystopia are all bombs against certain decks. What about when facing something like TES or Solidarity, where these cards are only moderately useful? What about facing something randomly jankalicious, like Dryad Sligh? What about against Landstill?

You also have to keep in mind that Serum Powder is a very weak draw in the deck. The only thing you can do with it at all once the game begins is to maybe drop it turn three in hopes that you somehow get a Jitte on your next draw and can Play/Equip/Swing. Suicide Black fiends for black mana, and not only does Serum Powder only produce colorless, it also costs equal to or more than the rest of the entire deck.

In certain situations, Powder could be a house, I'll admit, so I won't dismiss it offhand. Plague and Leyline are insane against the format, and Dystopia's a lifesaver when you need it, and even Powder Mulliganing for Needles or Jittes or Pro-White guys could be a godsend. But it definitely has its drawbacks.

I think the real question concerns what you're putting in your sideboard. To me, Suicide Black's standard sideboard is as follows:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Pithing Needle

However, since I maindeck the 4 Leylines, my sideboard shifts to

4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
4 Pithing Needle
3 ???

And I'm still searching for that third slot. Cursed Scroll has blown, despite how much I love it in the slower, more controlling Deadguy Ale. The fourth Needle has been insane, letting me steal tons of games against Landstill and Lands! and other control decks I have no business beating. So the remaining 3 slots could be Serum Powder. Right now for me they're Dark Confidant, which should in theory (These being the operative words) help my control and/or combo matches. I might also attempt them being Smother and/or Meekstone.




It means a good bit, actually. I appreciate it.

You should use Tsabo's Web in your ??? slot. It helps against landstill. If landstill is not popular in your area, then you should try something anti-combo like Thorn of A., Spere of Resistance, or Trinisphere.

[Tacosnape]

Jailer actually turns off Flashback, Squee, and Genesis fairly well.

The easiest way to figure out how Jailer works is to read it as "Cards in graveyards have blank text boxes".

Er, yeah. I was sleepy when I wrote that. You're entirely correct.

It still doesn't stop Threshold and makes the deck crumple to Tarmogoyf, though. And it's still fragile.


You should use Tsabo's Web in your ??? slot. It helps against landstill. If landstill is not popular in your area, then you should try something anti-combo like Thorn of A., Spere of Resistance, or Trinisphere.

Tsabo's Web...that's...not entirely a bad idea. I keep forgetting that card exists. A Needle on Deed would also keep it from getting blown up easily.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

The main problem I have with Jailer is that he does nothing against Thresh. Otherwise, he can beat every now an again where as Leyline and Planar can't. I still like Wretched due to his ability to put the hurt on Gofy and Ichorid. He is also not quite up to par though. Anyway, its time for Sui to use its potential to nuke GY's somehow. I think this means we are going to have to weaken some MU's and strengthen others. Why not bring a powerful game against the best decks? Most of them use the GY anyway, so we can kill 5 birds with one stone. One things for sure, Thresh ain't going to be happy. Perhaps through further discussion we can find the right setup. This is Sui's metagame now.

[Ozymandias]

Well, the fact is that an unknown opponent is most likely to be playing either Thresh, Landstill, or Lands! variants, and all three of those are gutpunched by Leyline. So it is in fact +EV against a random opponent.

[Tacosnape]

Well, the fact is that an unknown opponent is most likely to be playing either Thresh, Landstill, or Lands! variants, and all three of those are gutpunched by Leyline. So it is in fact +EV against a random opponent.

Explain your math, because while you're defending my side of the argument, I have no idea why you think a random opponent is most likely to be playing one of those three decks.

Threshold is probably beyond any doubt the most common deck in the format right now, and therefore the more we can crush it, the better. But I'm not sure Landstill is second and I'm not sure Lands! is even in the top ten. And I also question the assertion that Landstill is "gut-punched" by Leyline. It's a minor nuisance, sure, but Leyline doesn't affect Landstill with nearly the degree it affects Threshold and Loam decks.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

My main question is, does Sui even have a chance of getting to top 8 without attempting to seriously hate Thresh? Thresh and Breakfast are just more powerful decks. Playing Sui at a large tourney seems pretty risky either way, because of its ability to lose to random decks. It feels very powerful, but just not quite there. Also another thing I have been wondering, how much has the addition of ThoughtSeize add to Sui's power? We have had sometime to play with it now, and those even luckier got to do some serious testing. How has Thought Seize been affecting our MU's? It definitely gives us a stronger game against Breakfast and Goblins.

I feel Sui metagamed right can bring home the bacon. I guess this is directed to the more experienced posters, but do you feel Sui= Just a fun deck, or Sui= See you in the finals!

[Ozymandias]

Well, i only say that those decks are going to be the most common because those are the "best decks" in the format. Therefore, a good opponent will most likely be playing one of those decks. Since we should be most concenrend with beating the good players, Leyline is good. Of course, there will be other decks, and that is what the side is for. For instance, against TES/CRET Belcher you can go +4 Chalice, -4 Leyline, etc.

Oh, did I say Landstill? I meant Breakfast, which dies a horrible G1 death. Not so much Landstill, but I've seen some lists with ~6 win cons, and not being able to recur them is bad times for them.

[Galroth]

@ Tacosnape - I like your arguments for Leyline of the Void over Planar Void. And you've convinced me to run Leyline over Planar... in my sideboard :).

I agree with much of your analysis regarding Sinkhole. I think in your build, it has no place for the basic reasons stated. In my build, which incorporates chrome mox and ritual, which means I am almost always on the initiative, I think it does have a place. Not to mention a first turn Sinkhole is sexy if you aren't able to lay down a creature first turn. However, I don't run Snuff Out, though it would be the first removal spell I do include. Regardless I think Sinkhole retains its position in builds with creature bases more akin to Red Death.

I'm surprised you dislike Yixlid Jailer so much. You were at one point considering Withering Wretch if I'm not mistaken. Wretch is better against Goyf and a few other decks, but I would say Yixlid Jailer is the better GY hate with a body. I still think that Jailer having a body makes up for his deficieny in casting cost, and less relevant effect over the graveyard.

[Tacosnape]

I'm surprised you dislike Yixlid Jailer so much. You were at one point considering Withering Wretch if I'm not mistaken. Wretch is better against Goyf and a few other decks, but I would say Yixlid Jailer is the better GY hate with a body. I still think that Jailer having a body makes up for his deficieny in casting cost, and less relevant effect over the graveyard.

I was considering Wretch in an exclusively zombie build of sui-black, and I wanted it more for the ability to become a fattie and shrink a Tarmogoyf than to be legitimate yard hate. However, in hindsight, even with that considered, Jailer might have been the better choice despite its lower toughness. So yes, I will completely agree with the statement that Yixlid Jailer is better than Withered Wretch.

I just don't like Jailer's fragility. I don't like 2/1 guys to be my Jitte carriers unless they have some form of way to not die in the exchange with any 1/1 creature. Jailer can't really swing into just anything, where the rest of my 2-drops can swing into a lot.

Jailer can carry a Jitte, yes, but in games where I can't keep one of my 18 threats on the board, I don't usually need Jitte (The exceptions is Goblins, and Pyrokinesis owns Yixlid Jailer worse than my other creatures anyway.)

I suppose he might be worth testing in a pinch. I'm not certain I wouldn't ever run him. But he just doesn't seem to pack quite enough punch for me.

EDIT: Has anyone, and I mean anyone, run Chains of Mephistopheles in sideboard at any point? I sort of want to try them in my missing sideboard slot due to getting consistently steamrolled by Landstill and struggling against Solidarity, but I wanted to know if anyone had familiarity with it before I go hunt a trio of them up.

[Galroth]

My original list running the 8cc zombies didn't include anysort of graveyard hate. In place of Yixlid Jailer I was running Hypnotic Specter. Kinda makes the discard elements of the deck go over the top. But it really crushes alot of control in this manner. Of course there is always the turn 1 ritual specter play adding to the number of broken plays suicide black can have. I was also running Swords of Fire and Ice which really likes the evasion granted by specter. Ultimately creatures outside of the 8cc zombies, shade and atleast 4 other pumpables seem metagame slots. How many times is the pro-white coming in handy for you Taco? I can think of a number of possible options which could arguably be on par for the last few slots. Yixlid Jailer, Specter, Confidant, Heck one might even get away with Negator.

@ LordEvilTeaCup

I really like the idea of incorporating Serum Powder into the sideboard. Suicide black has possibly the best hate cards in the game for this current meta. So the phrase "go big, or go home" seems to fit both with sui-blacks options and its general strategy also.

This brings me to question how important pithing needle is in the board. I've had no personal experience with it, mostly because I've never though landstill was that poor a match-up. Oh... and I don't see 43 lands. I'm assuming these two decks are the primary reason pithing needle sees play, though it retains many uses in so many decks I'd rather not recount them all. However, is it strong enough to sideboard in against other decks over what suiblack has mainboarded? Taco that's a question for you and anyone else with like experience.

Again, I really like that board plan for decks like Taco's. I'm not sure it would fit equally as well into other builds... though it might. I'll give it some thought.

[Tacosnape]

I really like the idea of incorporating Serum Powder into the sideboard. Suicide black has possibly the best hate cards in the game for this current meta. So the phrase "go big, or go home" seems to fit both with sui-blacks options and its general strategy also.

This brings me to question how important pithing needle is in the board. I've had no personal experience with it, mostly because I've never though landstill was that poor a match-up. Oh... and I don't see 43 lands. I'm assuming these two decks are the primary reason pithing needle sees play, though it retains many uses in so many decks I'd rather not recount them all. However, is it strong enough to sideboard in against other decks over what suiblack has mainboarded? Taco that's a question for you and anyone else with like experience.

Pithing Needle is ludicrously good. In fact, I think it's a reason to run Serum Powder. Some matches it's as strong as Plague or Dystopia.

It gives you a fighting chance against Landstill or anything with Deed where you have none otherwise. It also, as you said, rocks 43 Lands. And, in fact, it gets boarded in against every control deck, ever, period. Considering I maindeck Jitte, it's most commonly what goes out for Needle, as Jitte blows against control and Needle is amazing against it.

But it does so much more than that. It shuts off Survival. It shuts off Goblin Charbelcher. It shuts off Gempalm Incinerator and Mogg Fanatic and Aether Vial. Suicide Black has no real way to deal with artifacts or enchantments that work on activated abilities other than Needle.

It's also incredibly, incredibly easy to cast. Which is important.

EDIT: Oh, and the Pro-White guys rock, too. Ever see BGW Survival try to deal with a Stromgald Crusader? It can't.

[Baumeister]

EDIT: Has anyone, and I mean anyone, run Chains of Mephistopheles in sideboard at any point? I sort of want to try them in my missing sideboard slot due to getting consistently steamrolled by Landstill and struggling against Solidarity, but I wanted to know if anyone had familiarity with it before I go hunt a trio of them up.

The problem you run into is trying to do too many things at once. The more controlish build has a better game against control decks because it runs Hypnotic Specter, Sinkhole, and Phyrexian Negator. Seeing as that version of this deck was designed to beat control decks, it does it pretty well. Your version trades in that good control matchup for a stronger aggro matchup. It all depends on the metagame, and Goblins could still come back strong. I don't think there is a way to make Suicide Black equally good against everything.

[Tacosnape]

The problem you run into is trying to do too many things at once. The more controlish build has a better game against control decks because it runs Hypnotic Specter, Sinkhole, and Phyrexian Negator. Seeing as that version of this deck was designed to beat control decks, it does it pretty well. Your version trades in that good control matchup for a stronger aggro matchup. It all depends on the metagame, and Goblins could still come back strong. I don't think there is a way to make Suicide Black equally good against everything.

First of all, speaking as an avid 4C Landstill player, I can tell you that no build of Suicide Black has a favorable matchup against 4C Landstill, Wastelands, Sinkholes, and all. Granted, Sinkhole/Wasteland can randomly steal quite a fair number of games, especially when Landstill is trying to get to that third land for Pernicious Deed, but if I get a single Standstill broken in my favor, I'll win 95% of the games from that point forward. Also, -any- build of Sui Black can steamroll Landstill with random aggression and disruption. I lost to my own build in a tournament that I'd lent to someone when he went Ritual/Sarcomancy/Sarcomancy/Carnophage, then followed with Shade, then followed with Hymns on turn 3 and 4. Similarly, I've lost to Red Death when it turn one'd a Negator and a Rotting Giant, then Sinkholed two lands of mine in a row. So while I respect the ability of a Sinkhole/Wasteland version to beat a control deck by never getting it to stabilize, I am of the opinion that its ability to do so is only slightly stronger than a build packing heavier discard and pro-white guys.

That said, there's no reason I shouldn't attempt to improve my build's control matchup. Four Pithing Needles helps, as does the fact that Landstill sometimes struggles to deal with Stromgald Crusader, but even all this isn't quite enough, it seems. So I was wondering if Chains of Mephistopheles might be a strong swing in the right direction. I can't help but think that without a Needle it'll just get blown up, though.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

First of all, speaking as an avid 4C Landstill player, I can tell you that no build of Suicide Black has a favorable matchup against 4C Landstill, Wastelands, Sinkholes, and all. Granted, Sinkhole/Wasteland can randomly steal quite a fair number of games, especially when Landstill is trying to get to that third land for Pernicious Deed, but if I get a single Standstill broken in my favor, I'll win 95% of the games from that point forward. Also, -any- build of Sui Black can steamroll Landstill with random aggression and disruption. I lost to my own build in a tournament that I'd lent to someone when he went Ritual/Sarcomancy/Sarcomancy/Carnophage, then followed with Shade, then followed with Hymns on turn 3 and 4. Similarly, I've lost to Red Death when it turn one'd a Negator and a Rotting Giant, then Sinkholed two lands of mine in a row. So while I respect the ability of a Sinkhole/Wasteland version to beat a control deck by never getting it to stabilize, I am of the opinion that its ability to do so is only slightly stronger than a build packing heavier discard and pro-white guys.

That said, there's no reason I shouldn't attempt to improve my build's control matchup. Four Pithing Needles helps, as does the fact that Landstill sometimes struggles to deal with Stromgald Crusader, but even all this isn't quite enough, it seems. So I was wondering if Chains of Mephistopheles might be a strong swing in the right direction. I can't help but think that without a Needle it'll just get blown up, though.

Eh, Taco? You haven't posted a list in this topic perchance, have you? T'would appreciate it if I saw your build.

[Tacosnape]

Eh, Taco? You haven't posted a list in this topic perchance, have you? T'would appreciate it if I saw your build.

It's a few pages back. Here it is, though.

18 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
2 Order of the Ebon Hand
2 Stromgald Crusader
2 Hand of Cruelty (This might get cut for more Pump/Jump knights.)

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
4 Pithing Needle
3 ??? (Confidant, Chains, Serum Powder, Cabal Therapy, Tsabo's Web, or something.)

[Baumeister]

First of all, speaking as an avid 4C Landstill player, I can tell you that no build of Suicide Black has a favorable matchup against 4C Landstill, Wastelands, Sinkholes, and all. Granted, Sinkhole/Wasteland can randomly steal quite a fair number of games, especially when Landstill is trying to get to that third land for Pernicious Deed, but if I get a single Standstill broken in my favor, I'll win 95% of the games from that point forward. Also, -any- build of Sui Black can steamroll Landstill with random aggression and disruption. I lost to my own build in a tournament that I'd lent to someone when he went Ritual/Sarcomancy/Sarcomancy/Carnophage, then followed with Shade, then followed with Hymns on turn 3 and 4. Similarly, I've lost to Red Death when it turn one'd a Negator and a Rotting Giant, then Sinkholed two lands of mine in a row. So while I respect the ability of a Sinkhole/Wasteland version to beat a control deck by never getting it to stabilize, I am of the opinion that its ability to do so is only slightly stronger than a build packing heavier discard and pro-white guys.

That said, there's no reason I shouldn't attempt to improve my build's control matchup. Four Pithing Needles helps, as does the fact that Landstill sometimes struggles to deal with Stromgald Crusader, but even all this isn't quite enough, it seems. So I was wondering if Chains of Mephistopheles might be a strong swing in the right direction. I can't help but think that without a Needle it'll just get blown up, though.

I was just pointing out the subtle nuances between the builds. I do realize that any Suicide Black deck can randomly crush Landstill off a good draw, but the builds with Sinkhole, Specter, Wasteland, etc. tend to do it more often because they can keep the Landstill player off balance to beat down enough. I agree with you, though, that a resolved Standstill can give you the leverage you need to win the match. It's just that Suicide has a lot of answers to the mana development and card advantage of a control deck. If I play Landstill (especially 4-color Landstill), neither deck is going to have an easy time winning. I like your build a lot, and I would run it if I didn't like the power of Sinkhole and Wasteland in Anwar's version of this deck so much. I almost think that that build should be classified as a different deck because it plays differently than traditional Suicide Black.

[Galroth]

I couldn't agree with Baumeister more. These two variants of suicide black are more dissimilar from each other than UGr and UGw Thresh. I would call for a new thread to separate the matter, however suicide black does not share the popularity or the tournament success of Threshold, so keeping all variants in a single thread is reasonable to me.

I'm actually surprised 4c Landstill is claimed to have a favorable matchup against suicide black builds which incorporate sinkhole, wasteland, hypnotic specter, negator and confidant. While I have no statistical evidence, my own experience has been quite the opposite. 4c Landstill is one of my better matchups and not one I worry about or even sideboard for. Other variants of Landstill are harder to go against, and while I haven't played against 43lands yet, I hear that's a whole other story. I know my deck is better suited than most to handle combo and control, but I would be surprised if there is that much difference. I'd like to hear about others experience as well.

EDIT: I did have a chance to test Chains of Meph out on MWS a few times. I was... unimpressed. Partly this is because I just found that so many other cards were worth the sideboard space over Chains. Ultimately though, I wouldn't even consider purchasing a card I'm on the fence about using for the price of Chains of Meph. Really, there is so much better worth sideboarding. If control is a serious matter, I think Pithing Needle is probably a good choice, though I have very little experience with that. I tend to board in Smallpox to compliment my other disruption against control; even then I only run 2 copies. I just view control as the least of my worries for boarding. GY hate, Thresh hate, Goblin hate, and generic aggro hate all take priority in my board before Chains.

Though in retrospect I still haven't picked up a set of Thoughtseizes yet. So I should probably shut up about the price as a concern.

[Baumeister]

The problem you face is against people who know what they're doing. I believe that Tacosnape can have a winnable matchup against my build of Suicide Black because he knows how to play the deck well (I'm assuming here). 4-color Landstill can have some extremely unfair draws which can shut down any deck. That comes at the cost of a fragile mana base to reach across those four colors for the best removal/counterspells/board control in the game. In order to make Landstill work affectively, it needs a good pilot. Good players playing the right cards at the right time can make the Landstill/Suicide matchup a pain in the butt for both players.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I have been thinking about Chrome Mox lately... I am dead set on using Snuff Out now, so I can no longer play my cute little eat me zombies. Darn you Galroth!

My creature base now has 4 open slots...

4 Hyppie
4 Bob
4 ....
3 Shade
3 Gator

Any suggestions? I could add another Shade or Gator, but I feel pretty comfortable with both amounts. I will most likely do a 2/2 split of something. There are the pump/jump creatures with pro white, rotting giant, and I am sure a few other options. The thing I like about Hand of Cruelty is he takes up less of your mana that would be pumping into your Shade. I am thinking of 2 Stromgald Crusader/Order of the Ebon Hand and 2 Hand of Cruelty or 2 Rotting.

[Galroth]

My creature base is very similar:

4x Hyppie
4x Bob
3x ...
3x Shade
4x Gator

One more gator one less... well, I use it as a metagame slot. Currently it's Yixlid Jailer; it used to be Plague Spitter when gobbos were more prevalent. I spend alot of time searching for that last perfect creature, and I can never seem to find it. (Incidentally this is the exact reason I came across Toshiro Umezawa which I posted about in the Red Death thread last night.) Sometimes I think that maybe I can up my shade count by 1 and add two 4cc fatties to the deck. Something like Grinning Demon for instance. But I haven't found any 4cc bombs that scream use me. The knights and giant just haven't cut it for me. They're good, but not great and obviously the worst cards in the deck. I generally figure I'll just try to use the remaining slots to hose whatever field I'm up against, i.e. metagame the slots.

I've been really satisfied with 18x creatures in my build. Red Death can get away with 16x because of the additional burn they pack. But I think suicide black wants a full 18. I do like the 4th Gator however. He and shade are still the fastest beats you have. Chrome Mox helps fuel him out early, or you can always pitch him to the Mox if you don't want to see him.

Reasons to use chrome mox: First turn bob, first turn sinkhole - great disruption followed by 2nd turn specter or negator. These kinds of plays, which are actually pretty common with 4x Ritual and 3x Chrome Mox are exactly what suicide black needs to win games. They're very comparable to the 2nd turn ritual equip jitte of the 1cc zombie builds. Except usually you get to use a piece of disruption to clear the path for your beater; and the plays are a little more common. This is basically the reason I like the more traditional suicide black builds over stark's 1cc zombie and pumpables list. As a last note, sometimes I think Chrome Mox is even better than Dark Ritual because it allows for multiple turns of acceleration. Then I remember how insane Dark Ritual is. Chrome Mox isn't far behind though.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

My creature base is very similar:

I've been really satisfied with 18x creatures in my build. Red Death can get away with 16x because of the additional burn they pack. But I think suicide black wants a full 18. I do like the 4th Gator however. He and shade are still the fastest beats you have. Chrome Mox helps fuel him out early, or you can always pitch him to the Mox if you don't want to see him.


Hmmm, yes I like the idea of adding a 4th Gator. Same could be said of shade to. If I see one to many multiples, its Pitchin' Time! I do agree there needs to be a new black creature on the block. I don't think Oona's Prowler is the answer either.

Barook in the Red Death thread, suggested Shriekmaw and I think it warrants some thought. I am pretty sure the answer is no, but the maw is pretty intriguing. Toshiro would be interesting with a build that uses more instants and he could potential recur some Dark Rituals and Smothers.

[Ozymandias]

The problem is that Bob is engfeh with Snuff out and other pitch cards.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

The problem is that Bob is engfeh with Snuff out and other pitch cards.

Bob is not bad in a deck that pitches stuff, because he keeps on grabbing your more cards. Bob and Snuff Out don't get a long, but its manageable... barely. Still, Snuff Out has too many synergies in my build to not use it. I don't have the two mana to spare for snuff out.

Chrome Mox is also not so bad late game here, because by then we have dead discard cards in our hand.

[Ataxrxes]

I just shuffled some cards around and now my deck looks like this:

// Lands
16 [TE] Swamp (3)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [4E] Hypnotic Specter
4 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
4 [EX] Carnophage
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [TE] Sarcomancy
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [US] Duress
4 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [US] Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ON] Smother
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [US] Planar Void

The sideboard probably sucks but I have no local metagame anyway right now. How does that look? I'm thinking the lifeloss from Bob and the Carnophages probably don't work too well with Snuff Out. Should I replace the Carnophages with jump knights? I can't spring for Jittes right now but I want to add 2 or 3. I am also thinking maybe I should get rid of the wastelands and add a couple swamps. Do I have enough main deck removal with just 4 copies of Snuff Out?

[Filipinho]

What do you guys think of Oona's Prowler?
I saw very little about it. On page 33 Tacosnape mentioned it, but it wasn't enough discussed.
I can see it's ability being a drawback against Ichorid, but specially for those who are running main deck Leyline of the Void, that shouldn't be a problem.
I disagree with Tacosnape, that said that Prowler+jitte isn't a combo.
Allow your opponent the option of discarding two cards, so you can't deal damage in one turn is bad, since you give him the opportunity to choose. But if he actually chooses to do that, it's actually a great deal for you. It's big card disadvantage for him.
It provides a very fast clock with evasion. I seriously think it should fit in.

Also with the decay of goblins, do you still think the 8x 1cc 2/2 should be run?
It was a great meta choice at Columbus, when flash reigned alone. But now that thresh and fast combos made a huge scar on goblins, I don't know.
I think Duress, Thoughtseize, and 4x 1cc 2/2 should be enough for the 1cc slot (not mentioning dark ritual).

[Blacktail]

Personally I am not a big fan of the prowler. It seems very good in standard, but I find that it is a more vulnerable version of the specter, and should they choose to discard a card of their choice every turn that it attacks ,1 damage a turn is not much of a clock and they get to choose the card. I'm also not impressed with it's synergy with jitte

[Ozymandias]

I also wanted to say that you should never, ever, be running less than four Nantuko Shades. It's really the only good reason to run black as more than a splash. It's one of the few creatures that can win a fight with Tarmogoyf, and it's a 3-4 turn clock at any point in the game.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I just shuffled some cards around and now my deck looks like this:

// Lands
16 [TE] Swamp (3)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
4 [4E] Hypnotic Specter
4 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
4 [EX] Carnophage
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [TE] Sarcomancy
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [US] Duress
4 [MM] Snuff Out
4 [US] Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ON] Smother
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [US] Planar Void

The sideboard probably sucks but I have no local metagame anyway right now. How does that look? I'm thinking the lifeloss from Bob and the Carnophages probably don't work too well with Snuff Out. Should I replace the Carnophages with jump knights? I can't spring for Jittes right now but I want to add 2 or 3. I am also thinking maybe I should get rid of the wastelands and add a couple swamps. Do I have enough main deck removal with just 4 copies of Snuff Out?

It looks pretty good. I would take out the wastelands if you do not use Sinkholes. Your Suicide curve (a janky term I just made up meaning lifeloss) should be ok. That will change once you put Thoughtseizes in the deck as it goes from ok (still ouch) to a bit excessive. I am trying to figure out what to do with that myself. I am currently trying out Chrome Mox to replace the 1cc zombies with. Also, going down to 3 Snuff Out if you get yourself some thoughtseizes should be ok. If you can find the money for Jittes, that would go a long way too. Man, thoughtseize is making this deck expensive.

[Tacosnape]

Personally I am not a big fan of the prowler. It seems very good in standard, but I find that it is a more vulnerable version of the specter, and should they choose to discard a card of their choice every turn that it attacks ,1 damage a turn is not much of a clock and they get to choose the card. I'm also not impressed with it's synergy with jitte

I think this is pretty dead on. Oona's Prowler + Jitte is bad for the same reason that Browbeat is bad, despite that half the planet never figures out that anything that gives your opponent the final option is bad unless the options are both ludicrous (And 2 cards versus 2 counters is not sufficient.)

It's also worth noting that in Legacy as we know it, anything that gives your opponent a free discard outlet is bad. So not only is Oogie Boogie's ability a drawback in the sense of it decreasing power, it's also a drawback in giving your opponent a chance to abuse his graveyard abilities. And you won't always have that Leyline to cover this.


I also wanted to say that you should never, ever, be running less than four Nantuko Shades. It's really the only good reason to run black as more than a splash.

This is pretty close to the most fundamentally true statement about Sui Black variants ever. Discard is fundamentally inferior to Countermagic as an aggro-control strategy (Though there are situations where discard is better), because with Discard you're always taking a tempo loss for your disruption and Discard is useless once a game goes into topdeck mode. Therefore if you're going to play an inferior strategy, you have to play some superior cards to compensate. Nantuko Shade, Dark Ritual, and the powerful sideboard options are the three biggest reasons to play this deck.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Who knows, if split second sees more print and they make some nasty ones... discard would gain a slight edge. Black has other control options that blue just doesn't have like LD and fantastic creature control. Of course that is why Blue is only a support color for the most part, and they use other colors for creature control but this is in Black's favor. You can have a simple and solid manabase, while everyone splashes ever color under heaven to fill in the gaps. We just need a few cards thrown our way, and maybe an advantageous unbanning to push Black up to the top.

As for Nantuko Shade, I have no qualms with only playing 3 but I won't argue the point. Any can feel free to say I suck or something:tongue:

[Ozymandias]

What creature is better than Shade in Suiblack?

Negator? If your opponent has no creatures, and you have a ritual, and your opponent has no burn.

Hyppie? If you have a ritual, on the first turn

Pumpknights? Pro:White is nice, but not "Half the power and one toughness" nice.

Zombies? If you drop it on the first turn, there's parity for a while, but wait, you'r playing disruption turn 1 if you hope to win.

Bob? In suicide, your best topdeck is a beater. Drawing extra discard is not fun, especially for life. If that Bob were a Shade, your opponent's topdecked Tarmogoyf'd mean so much less.

Shade is strong, fast, and cheap. It's so good that I would cut any creature before I cut Shade.

[Tacosnape]

Who knows, if split second sees more print and they make some nasty ones... discard would gain a slight edge. Black has other control options that blue just doesn't have like LD and fantastic creature control. Of course that is why Blue is only a support color for the most part, and they use other colors for creature control but this is in Black's favor. You can have a simple and solid manabase, while everyone splashes ever color under heaven to fill in the gaps. We just need a few cards thrown our way, and maybe an advantageous unbanning to push Black up to the top.

Even if they make Split Second discard, which will probably never happen in a form good enough to be Legacy playable, Discard will -still- be inferior to Countermagic out of principle. The reason for this is the mana that you're spending to get the effect.

For example, let's just at random take the card Survival of the Fittest. It's fairly common knowledge that the best way to deal with a Survival is to never let one hit play if possible. Discard and Countermagic, unless they're sitting on some Pithing Needles, will both strive to achieve this end. But Blue is going to be able to do it with less of a tempo loss because when you counter a spell, your opponent has already spent the mana for it.

Playing a Counterspell on Survival of the Fittest is an even trade. You both lose a card, and you both spent two mana. Playing a Force of Will, despite the card loss, is actually a tempo boost for you. They spent two mana and you spent none. This is a large part of why Threshold is so ridiculously good and why a lot of the games it wins it would have lost had the game gone two more turns.

However, nailing Survival with Duress, Cabal Therapy, or Thoughtseize requires you to spend mana where your opponent doesn't have to. In the case of Duress, you spent one mana and they spent none. Granted, the reason that Duress and company see play is because that one mana is almost always worth it to nail something as powerful as a Survival. But you're still spending mana for it when the opponent isn't.

I agree with you that excluding Countermagic and Discard, Black is a far stronger color than Blue. This is because in Legacy, practically the entirety of what Blue does is cantrip and counter. (There are exceptions: Cephalid Illusionist, Narcomoeba, Brain Freeze, Sea Drake, etc.) However, Black has some significant powerhouses. Engineered Plague is probably the single most identifiable sideboard staple in Legacy. Leyline of the Void is on the rise. Dystopia is a house in this sort of deck. Extirpate, Diabolic Edict, Smother, Ichorid, and tons of other black cards see play in various decks, as well.

So while a countermagic-based aggro control deck will always have a fundemental superiority over a discard-based one, the power level of all the cards in the deck must be considered and it's still quite possible for a top tier discard-based aggro control deck to exist. (You know, if they ever print a good black creature ever again. Which probably won't happen.)


What creature is better than Shade in Suiblack?

Shade is strong, fast, and cheap. It's so good that I would cut any creature before I cut Shade.

Ozymandias is right. Shade is the reason to run the deck, because Black's creatures suck on the whole. Negator's the other reason, if you run a Negatorish build (And by this, I really mean Red Death.) All other potential creatures for Suicide Black are bad. Any argument about creature selection in Suicide Black is generally an argument over which black creature is less awful than the others.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Even if they make Split Second discard, which will probably never happen in a form good enough to be Legacy playable, Discard will -still- be inferior to Countermagic out of principle. The reason for this is the mana that you're spending to get the effect.


Nah, this is a bit of a misunderstanding. I meant, discard handles split second by taking it out of their hand, while Blue is pretty much helpless. The spell will happen. So if they by some chance make some crazy split second spell or something, Black will have an advantage against it. Just pointing out some of the minor advantages of discard.

About Shade...I don't want to see him in multiples, and he is not a solid early play. Hyppie you can rit out and be fine... I never want to rit the Shade out. Still yeah, Shade is better than all the other creatures beside the Negator. Looking at my reasons, they no longer look convincing enough to keep the Shade at 3 so I will follow suit and add the 4th one in my deck.