[Deck] Suicide Black [Archive] - Page 8

Poxmaster

05-13-2010, 12:22 PM

Super necro.

Anyways, this deck piqued my interest. It makes use of Death's Shadow (yea remember the terrible 13/13 we all got excited about for nothing?) and really throws lifetotals out the window. Maybe not the smartest idea with Zoo and Seismic Loam running around, but the list looks both exciting and promising doing what black does best: hard-hitting, crazily suicidal aggro.

4 Flesh Reaver
3 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Death's Shadow

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Contract

4 Lotus Petal
3 Snuff Out
2 Kaervek's Spite

4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Wasteland
9 Swamp
# 60

Sideboard:

4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
2 Dystopia
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Yixlid Jailer

So I'm not sure how much of this deck needs an introduction, but it allows you to play cards that have those life-loss drawbacks with reason now.

Tombstalker and Shade are the regular black staples, while Fleshreaver, Gatekeeper of Malakir, and Death's Shadow have been added. Fleshreaver can butt heads with almost anything in the format and provides an enabler for Death's Shadow. Gatekeeper of Malakir is self-explanatory as an edict on a stick. And Death's Shadow has become a primary focus of the deck, allowing for quick, efficient beatdown. The only problem with Death's Shadow is that it really doesn't become all that great until you're sub-10 life (and under 7 life if you want to start attacking profitably). It shouldn't be that hard to accomplish this, but at the same time you could randomly get burned out.

Thoughtseize can be run without feeling bad (lol) and Infernal Contract is just flat out amazing gas for the deck. The card is a bit risky, but when paired with Death's Shadow allows itself to become pretty decent. Another idea is to run Skeletal Scrying, but the deck runs off 13 lands (13!!!!!). Not too sure about Lotus Petal either, but I suppose it helps fill the yard for Tombstalker as well as enabling more busted early-turn plays. I think the real answer here is probably Dark Confidant :P

Snuff Out is an auto-include and Kaervek's Spite is quite the awesome finisher. Even with Gatekeeper, I'd probably still want to run some more removal (like Smothers), just to make sure my beats can consistently fly through.

It's an interesting take, and I think I'll be proxying this up for a test drive.

hi guys
i'm from Chile
and I play that deck check this
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33992

it's to dangerous to play but very funny

now i'm testing a new version of this deck that i called "sadomasoquista"
during this day I hope to post the new version, a little bit controller

see u
regards

PD: sorry about my english...

鳥肉さん

05-13-2010, 01:31 PM

I think Abyssal Persecutor definitely has a place in this deck. I run 4 alongside 4 Tombstalker. Second turn Persecutor is hard to deal with and easily pumped out via dark ritual. And his drawback isn't as hard to work around as it seems. I run cabal therapy mainboard along with two smallpox and they get the job done. He really strengthens the deck and should be a strong consideration.

Mr. Durden

07-02-2010, 04:06 PM

LegacyDan

07-03-2010, 09:51 PM

Lich? How many Artifacts are you playing in your deck?

Vacrix

07-03-2010, 11:58 PM

Sorry to necro this thread, but I saw this M11 card and thought it probably had a place in this deck: Phylactery Lich.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=175953

This card seems really good to me for this deck, as some (admittedly different design) decks run bob and top and other versions run jitte and sword of light and shadow (some versions run both). It's true your opponent gets a two-for-one by killing your artifact, but not a lot of current decks run artifact removal mainboard, so I guess this guy could be sided out after blowing your opponent out game 1.

Thoughts?
It might come back. Suicide was pretty good against Landstill back in the day. Given that everyone is expecting Landstill to return to the limelight, maybe we will also see a resurgence of this deck as well. Lich is alright. You need quite a few artifacts maindeck for it to be playable. I think its best to wait until Scars of Mirrodin to develop a good list with more artifacts. ATM it would be horrible.

Yochanan

07-24-2010, 10:06 PM

Sorry to necro this thread, but I saw this M11 card and thought it probably had a place in this deck: Phylactery Lich.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=175953

This card seems really good to me for this deck, as some (admittedly different design) decks run bob and top and other versions run jitte and sword of light and shadow (some versions run both). It's true your opponent gets a two-for-one by killing your artifact, but not a lot of current decks run artifact removal mainboard, so I guess this guy could be sided out after blowing your opponent out game 1.

Thoughts?

A playset of Vault of Whispers might be a good option, along with some other artifacts of course. Anyone find Sensei's Divining Top useful in MBA or Suicide?

DarthVicious

07-25-2010, 01:27 AM

A playset of Vault of Whispers might be a good option, along with some other artifacts of course. Anyone find Sensei's Divining Top useful in MBA or Suicide?

Equipment. Sword of Light and Shadow could make the Lich nigh-invincible. I've been testing Lightning Greaves. Whispersilk Cloak might be good too. Remember to spread the counters around your artifacts too, you almost never want more than one counter on an artifact. That way they don't kill all your Liches with one Pridemage/Grip.

If you're running lots of discard or a control shell of some kind, there's always The Rack.

I think Darksteel Pendant may be better for the Lich than Top though.

flyboyeze

07-25-2010, 04:51 AM

I saw Phylactery Lich spoiled about a month ago and i about flipped out. I love creatures like that, its an efficient creature with a small drawback if built around correctly, here's a rough sketch of a suicide black/eva green list i put together real quick. I searched for good 0 cost cards that contribute a lot to the synergy of the deck, with the rise in Hive Mind.Deck and a 0 cost Chalice of the Void would provide decent cover for those matchups while playing it with 1 counter shuts down New Horizons from playing Stifle and Swords. I also put in Vault of Whispers and Chrome Mox. Here's the list

4x Dark Ritual
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Nantuko Shade
4x Phylactery Lich
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Hymn to Tourach

4x Vault of Whispers
4x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
4x Swamp

Yochanan

07-25-2010, 11:12 AM

Equipment. Sword of Light and Shadow could make the Lich nigh-invincible. I've been testing Lightning Greaves. Whispersilk Cloak might be good too. Remember to spread the counters around your artifacts too, you almost never want more than one counter on an artifact. That way they don't kill all your Liches with one Pridemage/Grip.

If you're running lots of discard or a control shell of some kind, there's always The Rack.

I think Darksteel Pendant may be better for the Lich than Top though.

I definately agree on some of your equipment choices, swords and lightning greaves are good choices. Jitte too. I don't like Darksteel Pendant, there's always Dark Confidant over the top though, too. So maybe neither. Perhaps 4 Vault of Whispers and 3-4 Equipment would be a good start. I also like flyboyeze suggestion of runing moxes. We could always run a conservative splash of white for stoneforge mystic for equipment but maybe that's turning the deck into something its not.

TheSocMethod

07-26-2010, 03:15 AM

Phylactery Lich inspired me to get back in after a ten year hiatus... Built this about a week ago:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Smother
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozalik
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Nyxathid
2 Tombstalker
4 Phylactery Lich
4 Sensi's Divining Top
4 The Rack
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Swamp

JadeOberg

07-26-2010, 04:36 PM

Gosh I love that build Br....er Soc. Big fatties, plenty of removal. Synergy between fetches, top, tombstalker. Synergy with discard, nyxathid, lich, rack. Im wondering about lightning greaves as well. May be worth testing as a 1 of. I think Lich will get sick after the next seto. Lich is such a beating. In testing Nyxathid was never smaller than a 4/4....for 3 mana. Usually a 5/5 80 percent of the time. A deck with this many cheap fatties can roll any aggro deck.

JadeOberg

07-29-2010, 11:32 PM

Okay, so after days of extensive testing with the Lich, he just falls short of what I want him to be. And indestructibility means so little in a world of Pridemages. Often times just ends up being a goyf wall. Swords and Path get him, Jitte gets him, sweepers get him. So the first turn artifact swamp, ritual, lich is awesome. Its too bed that the best decks will just sword him end of turn. Eva Green is just better.

overseer1234

08-13-2010, 01:11 PM

Okay, so I was lurking around on deckcheck.net and stumbled upon this deck-list:

creature [18]
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Tombstalker
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Vampire Nighthawk

instant [8]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Smother

sorcery [8]
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

artifact [5]

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Umezawa's Jitte

land [21]

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Dark Depths
3 Polluted Delta
10 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:

2 Ravenous Trap
3 Deathmark
3 Infest
4 Perish
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
15 cards

The list looks pretty solid to me, except that it plays to few turn 1 plays short of duress/SDT/ dark ritual into... (might be just me thinking this...)

So what do people think here:
1-time fluke, or definitely something to consider tweaking?

Dark Ritual

08-13-2010, 01:44 PM

If I were to play the lich, I might MD pithing needle to name pridemage with it and to put a counter on it with lich. If you suspect someone boarded in k grips for the lich, you can always board them out to make the k grips a lot more dead. Darksteel citadel should be run alongside the lich IMO sure you rely more on dark ritual to cast him before turn 4 but then lich will stick unless they exile/RFG him somehow. He is an interesting card, but he might dilute the deck too much to merit his inclusion IMO.

EssKay

08-13-2010, 01:50 PM

How about Cursed Scroll? Seems good in a deck like sui black that can empty its hand quickly and can run out of steam in the mid/late game.

Corax

08-23-2010, 05:15 PM

for Phylactery Lich, hes a lot stronger in a deck with chrome mox due to the vault being easily wasteland'd, in my current experimental list i have been running chrome moxes in place of dark ritual but i am thinking about taking out more disruption instead (probably take out sinkhole):

4 Phylactery Lich
4 Tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade

2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Chrome Mox
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Night's Whisper (could be changed to infernal contract but i am liking this at the moment)
3 Snuff Out
1 The Abyss (seems good in the current meta, doesn't affect you if you have a lich out because its a destroy effect)

22 land

4 Vault of Whispers
4 Wasteland
7 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire

EssKay

08-24-2010, 01:54 AM

Actually Darksteel Brute doesn't seem bad, low cmc, indestructable, and can turn extra mana into an extra beater/blocker. I'd be interested to see something along the lines of a black Sligh. Would have to have really efficient beaters to make up for the lack of burn, or splash red.

Speaking of, Corax, have you considered Sign in Blood instead of Night's Whisper? BB shouldn't be a problem, and it doubles as burn in a pinch.

Just for shits and giggles, here's an imaginary list:

Creatures

4 Dark Confidant
4 Phylactery Lich
4 Carnophage
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Tombstalker

Artifacts

4 Darksteel Brute
4 Cursed Scroll
2 Thorn of Amethyst

Spells

4 Dark Ritual
4 Sign In Blood

Land

4 Vault of Whispers
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
6 Swamp

SB

4 Extirpate
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Engineered Plague
1 Something random...Gaea's Blessing to stop Painterstone?

Actually thinking of Oona's Prowler over Shade, not sure how much free mana there would be with Scrolls and Brutes to activate. Not sure if there are enough spells to power out Tombstalker reliably either, maybe something like Arrogant Bloodlord or Grinning Demon in his place, although the curve needs to stay low to minimize the number of lands required.

colo

08-24-2010, 08:37 AM

Dross Golem might be worth trying out with either equipment that makes it worth connecting with your opponenthitting your opponent in the face. It's also hard to remove by means of Engineered Explosives and Pernicous Deed.

Tano

12-09-2010, 08:21 AM

Hey Guys,

played a Suicide Black Deck last week on a tournament (14 people took part in that tournament) and i ended with a second place.
The deck i played was the following one:

4 x Phyrexian Negator
4 x Hypnotic Specter
4 x Nantuko Shade
4 x Sacromancy
4 x Shriekmaw
2 x Tombstalker

4 x Dark Ritual
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Duress
4 x Diabolic Edict
2 x Umezawas Jitte

16 x Swamp
4 x Wasteland

SB:
4 x Perish
4 x Tormods Crypt
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Deathmark
3 x Ratchet Bomb

so, thats an oldstyle deck without phylactery lich or without persecutor, but it worked quite well for me. I won against TES and Vengevine Survival and against Dark Treshhold. I lost to another Vengevine Survival (with LED in it). Maybe you like it :cool:

Tourach

12-09-2010, 01:52 PM

For my part I like the deck. It being oldstyle already, Cursed Scroll would be really good here I think. It's colorless, difficult to remove, rewards empty hands...

Carnophage and/or Sinkhole might be cool, too.

Vacrix

12-09-2010, 02:30 PM

Tano

12-09-2010, 03:48 PM

@Tano
If you are going to maindeck something like Negator then you really ought to play some more removal spells in the main.

Otherwise, I really like your SB. With Survival and Landstill coming back, Sui has something to feed on again.

thx guys for your replies. Vacrix, i like the negators very much in that type of deck, so my question to you is, what would you cut for playing more removal and furthermore, what kind of removal would you play? I think that i could afford playing snuff outs, since i play duress instead of thoughtseize. So gimme an idea :rolleyes:

@tourach: Iam glad to see, that you like that deck. I have played cursed scrolls 11 or 12 years ago. They were very nice type 2 stuff in these days :tongue:. Never tested them in legacy. Arent they too slow for that fast deck? But why not, maybe i give them a try and sinkholes too. The deck is more controlish then, if i add cursed scroll and sinkholes. :rolleyes:

Koi-BR

12-27-2010, 05:06 PM

@Tano: Well...I've been playing Black Sui, MBA, MBC since 1999. The best removal I've been using is Smother... But Sunff out seems good too, but if you use Dark Confidant I don't think it's the best option. There's also Contagion (not really a removal) if you're not running Bob... Doom Blade may be an option too.

Tano

12-28-2010, 11:38 AM

thx for your reply. I thought about adding snuff out, instead of shriekmaw in order to get more speed in performance and i thought about adding a third tombstalker and four fetchies to improve getting a quick tombstalker online and adding 1 tomb of urami for late kill option. So the list would be something like this:

5/5 Legion of Doom

4 marsh flats
4 wastelands
1 tomb of urami
11 swamp

4 phyrexian negator
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
3 tombstalker
4 sacromancy

4 dark ritual
4 hymn to tourach
4 duress
4 snuff out
3 diabolic edict
2 umezawas jitte

SB:
4 tormods crypt
4 dystopia
3 ratchet bomb
3 pithing needle
1 diabolic edict

What do you think about that build? Should i take it to a large tournament?

Big Sexy

01-06-2011, 12:20 AM

Anybody try Necrogen Scudder in their suicide decks?

Jay_Gatz

01-06-2011, 01:47 AM

hippie and nighthawk are just so much better

necrowil

01-12-2011, 09:00 PM

phylactery lich

its interesting card and i decided to test it. first i tried chrome mox (too much card disadvantage), urza's bauble (bad late game), vault of whispers (wasteland), darksteel citadel (need black mana for shade) before arriving at the below listed deck list.

main
17 snow-covered swamp
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 cursed scroll
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 umezawa's jitte
4 nantuko shade
4 phyrexian war beast
4 hypnotic specter
4 phylactery lich

sideboard
4 dread of night
3 perish
2 keeper of the dead
2 withering wisps
2 bojuka bog
2 extirpate

also i quickly learned more then one in play at a time can be bad. i also found some matches you want to side out those artifacts you don't need. maybe phyrexian negator needs to be in the sideboard. the sideboard needs the most work. the field is so green white right now its scary. you also may want more flyers for things like moat. also are there any other solid artifact creatures besides phyrexian war beast? maybe masticore belongs in here..

i still think the deck plays slow. maybe it needs another win condition like hatred. not sure really.

scroll turns out to be really amazing in this deck. lots of time people have answers to creatures but not scroll. even if they run pridemages,often they are not enough to stop active scrolls

necrowil

01-12-2011, 11:27 PM

more impressive then Phylactery Lich by the way is Pact of Negation in Hatred. it really answers all those nay sayers out there that say well Hatred is too easy to disrupt with removal, counters, higher life total (ok we can't fix that) but if you build the deck right you should be in good shape.

this is what i'm testing now and i have to say, this is the best version of the deck to date i have seen. pact of negation allows you to cast hatred against burn, counters etc. it is a must have 4 of card all the time. also an addition i found is ancient tombs for getting to 5 mana quickly. so currently i'm running this

main deck

12 swamp
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland

4 pact of negation
4 cursed scroll
4 dark ritual
4 sinkhole
4 hatred

4 sarcomancy
4 vampire lacerator
4 hypnotic specter
4 phyrexian negator
4 skittering skirge

also you can use pact of negation if you are just attacking for the win and they have removal without hatred. its a lot of fun to play. and yeah, its not established but i just thought you guys might be interested. you get to cast hatred basically without fear. notice the deck runs NO DISCARD spells. you for the most part don't care what is in their hand. just want to remove annoying lands like maze of ith and mishra's factory

peace.

sporenfrosch1411

01-13-2011, 01:34 AM

So you play 4 Sinkhole and 4 Pact of Negation....nothing else in the terms of removal and or discard?

How do you handle some of this choices:
Peacekeeper
Moat
Elephant Grass
Counterbalance
Any kind of Combo
Progenitus // Emrakul

?

I think this pile needs some removal, especially when you are planning to swing in with a Negator.
Also, how does this win versus Zoo or Merfolk?
Or versus ANT, TES,DDFT ?
Or versus CounterTopThopter?
Or versus Enchantress?
Or versus Dredge?

I don't see any reason to play this over Tano's list (can be found at the top)......

necrowil

01-13-2011, 04:05 PM

yeah i think i said its not established. but i'm very pleased with the results of testing today. pact of negation fixes a lot of things that were wrong with hatred. not all of course but quite a bit. when i have some tournament results of matches vs the decks you listed i will list them. but practicing today i won a lot of matches after hatred was force of will or my creature was swords because i ran pact of negation. maybe its just my play style but the other list just seems slow to me. list i'm running now is

sideboard
4 dread of night
4 contagion
3 perish
2 withering wisps
1 spinning darkness
1 reckless spite

main
13 snow-covered swamp
4 wasteland
4 pact of negation
4 dark ritual
4 cursed scroll
4 hatred
3 umezawa's jitte
4 sarcomancy
4 carnophage
4 vampire lacerator
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 hypnotic specter

the deck basically wins 3 ways, jitte, hatred or scroll. but like i said its not established but i think there may be an alternative to the standard build so i posted it here. i know this though the deck won against a lot of decks it should not have because of pact so i think at the very least it warrants some investigation. but i'll post tournament results.

peace.

Jin15

01-23-2011, 04:17 AM

I dig your list necrowil! It's got a very Sligh mana curve to it and Pact of Negation is a clever way to safeguard your Hatred.

I just started playing this deck a short time ago myself (mainly because I wanted something fun that I could play my sets of Dark Rit and Hymn in lol), so I don't have a whole lot of experience with it. But after a little tinkering I have come up with a list I really like so far so I thought I'd share it.

[24 Creatures]
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Flesh Reaver
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter

[16 Spells]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

[20 Lands]
16 Swamp
4 Wasteland

~~~~~~~
Sideboard
~~~~~~~
4 Vendetta
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dystopia
4 Ashenmoor Gouger

I think it's probably one of the most balls to the wall aggro lists you'll find, running 24 creatures and a whole lot of self damage, but I find it effective. The creature base is pretty old school but they all do their job well IMHO, which is doing the most amount of damage to the opponent in the shortest time possible. This list basically relies on disrupting the opponent's hand and mana base during the first few turns and then bashing their face with the biggest creatures available for their mana cost over the next few turns before they can recover from the disruption.
I tried just about every popular creature that could see play in Sui Black (Confidant, Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, Tombstalker, etc.) but ultimately settled on my creature choices for their ability to get in as much damage as possible as fast as possible before the opponent could recover from disruption. The only exception are the Hippies, which keep the disruption going to buy time and have some nice evasive qualities as well. If he's able to stick for more than a few turns you can really establish a soft lock with the Hippie, emptying the opponent's hand with discard between him and Hymn/Thoughtseize and keeping it empty until they draw something to kill the Hippie.

For now at least I've chosen to keep all the removal in the sideboard, which allows for the maximum number of threats and disruption maindeck but gives me the option of tuning the deck with any necessary removal to improve aggro matchups in game 2 and 3. Ashenmoor Gouger is in the board to replace the Alien (Phyrexian Negator lol) when playing against anything playing Red, since any burn thrown his way majorly hinders our gameplan.

At this point the only changes I'm considering making to the main deck is to take out the 4x Carnophage for 4x Funeral Charm. It would lower the aggro abilities of the deck a bit (dropping the creature count to 20) but Funeral Charm seems like such a versatile spell I think it might be worth it. It's a built in answer to a turn 1 Lackey that's never a dead draw since you can also use it to pump one of your own guys, give them unblockability on the alpha strike if the opponent is playing any black sources, or just force a discard. Seems like it could be pretty tech :)

MGC_player

01-23-2011, 06:21 PM

Since this deck plays a lot of things that have self damage, would Death's Shadow be a decent inclusion as a 1 or 2 of? It seems like a good card lategame though it isn't as good early game.

Quark.Nova

01-24-2011, 06:12 AM

He seems to be made for this Archetype. Definitely he's worth a try as one or two of. Has anyone already gathered some experience

Secretly.A.Bee

01-24-2011, 09:10 AM

Win-More Much?

Jin15

01-26-2011, 11:30 PM

I didn't care for Death's Shadow too much myself. The problem being that this deck want's to dump it's threats on the board ASAP and win as soon as possible rather than sitting back and holding something until the moment is right to play it. Death's Shadow is one of those cards that is great if you have a Flesh Reaver out and are beating yourself to death at about the same rate as the opponent is dying, but without a Flesh Reaver on the board you often end up holding him the entire game and never being able to play him since your life total doesn't get low enough to make good use of him.

I'm not saying that Death's Shadow is unplayable, but I think you really need to make a build specifically to support him if you want to play him. In the creature base Flesh Reaver would be an auto 4 of, fetch lands seem necessary, and main decked removal in the form of Vendetta and Snuff Out seems necessary as well. Basically anything that keeps the deck aggro and helps you kill yourself would be good.
I might try a build with Death's Shadow at some point, but I think it's pretty safe to say that if you want to play him you really have to build around him with the idea of killing yourself as fast as possible being the focus... and I'm not sure that's the best focus to have when building a deck lol

dsck

01-27-2011, 06:51 AM

I went 3-1 yesterday in a small local tournament (17 players).

List:

NOTE I borrowed ~15 cards as most of the cards are still in mail.

15 Swamp
2 Fetch
2 Wasteland
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Confidant
2 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Hypnotic Specter
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Phyrexian Negator
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Hymn
4 Inqusition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Snuff Out
4 Diabolic Edict

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
1 Null Rod
1 Deathmark
1 Pithing Needle
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Random card I cant remember

Match 1 Welder Reanimator 2-0
He keeps slow hand, I punish him with Cabal Therapy and Hymns. G2 Both mull to 5, I have 2 Leylines and he doesnt have Show and Tell.

Match 2 Affinity 2-1
G1 he overruns me. G2 Pithing needle on that troublesome equipment I cant remember right now. G3 Null Rod, laughs were had.

Match 3 UW Tempo 0-2
I had to mull on the play I drew only lands. G2 I name STP instead of fow on therapy, he had 2 fows.. I have bad draws here again.

Match 4 URb Dreadstill 2-1
G1 I make mistake, I could have flashback-therapied for fow before making him sac his Nought but I didnt and it cost me. G2 + G3 lots of discard and fast beatings = GG, especially on G3 I think I had fast Negator :)

My list wasnt exactly how I had planned it out but it worked out alright. Wastelands were always bad, I couldnt cast Malakir few times because of them, makes me unsure to run a playset in future when I am getting the 2 missing wastes...

List im planning on using in the future:
9 Swamp
5 Fetch
4 Wasteland
2 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
2 Abyssal Persecutor / May add 1 more, confidants wont like that though.
2 Hypnotic Specter
2 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Negator
2 Jitte
4 Hymn
4 Inqusition of Kozilek / Maybe Split with Duresses
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Ghastly Demise / Could be Deathmarks, I fear goblins and merfolks though.
2 Snuff Out
4 Diabolic Edict

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
3 Deathmark / Perish / Nature's Ruin / Virtue's Ruin

necrowil

02-03-2011, 02:11 AM

I dig your list necrowil! It's got a very Sligh mana curve to it and Pact of Negation is a clever way to safeguard your Hatred.

I just started playing this deck a short time ago myself (mainly because I wanted something fun that I could play my sets of Dark Rit and Hymn in lol), so I don't have a whole lot of experience with it. But after a little tinkering I have come up with a list I really like so far so I thought I'd share it.

[24 Creatures]
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Flesh Reaver
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter

[16 Spells]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

[20 Lands]
16 Swamp
4 Wasteland

~~~~~~~
Sideboard
~~~~~~~
4 Vendetta
4 Engineered Plague
3 Dystopia
4 Ashenmoor Gouger

i think your list is what i think of when i think suicide black IMHO. its a beatdown deck. i put it together and its super effective at what it does which is disrupt the opponent and kill him. i actually made one change to the main deck. i took out carnophage for vampire lacerator. you take less damage from it and you really don't care about having zombies in the deck with 4 negator to remove sarcomancy if you need to.

i'm not a fan of funeral charm. i think its subpar. i think you need a more brutal sideboard. i'm not a fan of gouger or plague. i don't have a board in mind but i would look at reckless spite, contagion, spinning darkness, forsaken wastes, withering wisps, cursed scroll, umezawa's jitte, dread of night, perish. you want free spells really because you want to play a threat or disrupt each turn so, you need an effective board. you want the rudest cards black has to offer.

also if your board cards costs 3, i would not run more then 2 of whatever it is. you want it to be a fast deck. you don't want an open hand full of plagues or dystopia.

wastes will allow you to end the game quickly. you don't want them stabalizing at some low life number. wastes just ensures their doom. this way if your opponent gets out something asinine like ghostly prison or propaganda or humility or moat or ensnaring bridge or active jitte you can still end the game. dystopia is ok but it really is not aggressive enough. plague is slow and most decks that play one creature type are ready for it. i'm not a fan of kaervek's spite. i like soul spike over it but this deck empties its hand so you may need something else. or you may need nothing. i found 22 or 23 creatures to be most ideal. 20 sometimes you just don't draw enough threats.

shade may be an option to cut if you want a slot. how many active shades do you want on the board anyway. also i like skittering skirge as well. in a deck like this, they will kill it if they can. you also may not need 4 negator. usually you only want one out at a time. i'm offering this if you are looking to cut something and you may not be. list is fine the way it is. like i said i only ran vampire lacerator over carnophage because IMHO its a better card.

i actually run countersliver for my tournament deck. its not your garden variety countersliver just because my deck wins a lot.. but i still test suicide and hatred a lot. i'm not sure pact belongs in it but it is funny to see when it works and they try to force of will it. the main issue is they are usually playing bigger guys then you. its mostly a fun deck as i get tired of my tournament deck.

i like suicide. a lot of decks still can't handle 1st turn negator or turn 1 fleshreaver sarcomancy go backed up with disruption. do you usually play creatures 1st or disrupt 1st then play them?

peace.

necrowil

necrowil

02-03-2011, 02:17 AM

Death's Shadow is definitely a card you have to build a deck around. If I were playing Death's Shadow I would play Lurking Evil main deck

BBB
Enchantment
Sacrifice half your life. Lurking evil becomes a 4/4 black horror flyer.

But I agree with Jin because typically you cannot ritual it out 1st turn which is a problem in a fast deck.

necrowil

02-04-2011, 02:05 AM

well suicide got a gift today. go for the throat is the best targeted removal card black has seen for a long time. i'm still testing hatred. so far the best version of the deck i have come up with is.

sideboard
4 go for the throat
4 dread of night
4 contagion
3 perish

main
13 swamp
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 cursed scroll
4 hatred
3 umezawa's jitte
4 sarcomancy
4 vampire lacerator
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 phyrexian negator
4 hypnotic specter

plan is simple really. the city of traitors enable you to equip jitte or get active scroll quickly or cast negator on turn 2. the extra mana is cool to have for negator, equipping and scroll. the scroll usually can finish them off if they survive the creature rush. wastelands held for problematic lands. simple really.

technogeek5000

02-27-2011, 09:40 AM

The reason this deck fell out of favor a while ago is that its creature base was sub par compared to the rest of the format, namely tarmogoyf. Aside from splashing green in this deck, I believe the only other viable option this deck has is to make use of the new Phylactery Lich from M11. This card is definitely overpowered enough for its mana cost to fit perfectly into this decks game plan, so all that is left to effectively use this card is to be able to keep your phylactery counters on the table. Ive been testing a new list as of late that makes use of aether vial, jitte, and artifact lands to provide a stable artifact base and through this decks large amount of hand disruption, you are usually able to protect it from removal. The whole point of building the deck with lich though is so that you can support a 5/5 indestructible without too many drawbacks IN ADDITION TO everything else you are doing, this is why swords and pridemage and grip shouldnt be as problematic as one would first assume. Sure, if they catch you with your pants down you get two for oned, but compared to the amount of times you will be able to pull their artifact removal out of their hand and the fact that deck still plays well without the lich it is worth making yourself just a tad more open to wastelands then usual (right now im running 2-1 split between vault and darksteel citadel, don't know which is which just yet as im not running shade).

I have found aether vial to be especially effective as often times you can vial in a confidant at the end of there turn insuring that you will net extra cards for at least 1-2 turns as you are then given the chance to use discard to pull the removal out of there hand on your next turn (it also allows you to instant speed nighthawk block).

Also, go for the throat outclasses any removal spell this deck may have had before, with the only exception being snuff out in lists that do not utilize confidant and are not already running a lot of life loss. Please run it.

Edit:
i like suicide. a lot of decks still can't handle 1st turn negator or turn 1 fleshreaver sarcomancy go backed up with disruption. do you usually play creatures 1st or disrupt 1st then play them?
I normally opt out for the disruption, as you have the option to protect your business and you gain information on their game plan.

ArthurGress

03-23-2011, 08:03 AM

Hey dudes!

I was trying Plague Sliver in main deck, and he's fantastic! It's a Juzam Djinn for 1 buck heeh

My list is:

22 Swamp

3 Tombstalker
4 Plague Sliver
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Nantuko Shade

3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out

Its missing 5 cards, that im still not sure yet.
Sign in blood, deathmark, infest, hypnotic specter and go for the throat are my options that i came up.
Im not running hymns beacause inquisition is faster and i can remove specific stuff.
The Tempo card: - Snuff out is perfect, you dont need mana to cast it and helps to play and equip jitte faster..

obs: I dont want wasteland, Bobs and sinkholes...they're just so much expensive! Maybe later...

any thoughts?

Greenpoe

03-23-2011, 10:33 AM

4 Shade is too many. I'd drop down to 2. 8 1cc discard is too many, too. Drop 2-4 of them. Add in more creatures, like Gateekeper of Malakir, or some of the really aggressive ones like Flesh Reaver or Vampire Lacerator.

necrowil

04-08-2011, 03:39 AM

for those who care, this is a decent version of hatred i came up with utilizing the best tutors black has to offer which isn't saying a lot, but it does quite well. 1 grim tutor and 1 diabolic intent seem to be the best. you don't really want to draw more then 1 intent or grim during any given game. it also allows you to finish them off if you are in a race by tutoring for kaervek's spite if they are not playing blue. they are quite good for what they do. if there were a 3rd decent tutor out there i might utilize it, but there just isn't right now.

adding mesmeric fiend was key over pact of negation just to knock out key cards which may prevent you from going off. doesn't look too much different the hatred decks of old and i found the shadow creatures to be a very necessary evil of the deck for what it's worth. the deck wants more zombies and flyers like skittering skirge for moat but even with the drawback of sarcomancy its actually much better to run lacerator over carnophage.

negator is ok but not really missed in the deck and of course jitte is a great win condition on shadow creatures. you are forced to play it really. so many people start it that you can't afford for it to resolve and have no answer for jitte.

i favor a ton of graveyard hate. i just don't like when people start doing all sorts of crazy things in their graveyard. bog is strong. can't be countered and provides black mana. macabre can't be countered either and extirpate is not bad vs control/combo decks.

hatred

sideboard
4 dread of night
4 cursed scroll
3 perish
2 faerie macabre
2 extirpate

main deck
12 swamp
4 crystal vein
4 wasteland
2 bojuka bog
4 dark ritual
4 hatred
3 umezawa's jitte
1 kaervek's spite
1 diabolic intent
1 grim tutor
4 sarcomancy
4 vampire lacerator
4 mesmeric fiend
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 hypnotic specter

peace.

necrowil

Shtriga

04-08-2011, 06:08 PM

Can't believe no one mentioned this yet. Have you guys seen the new creature in New Phyrexia?

Phyrexian Canceller
BBBB
Mythic
Creature - Horror
Trample
Whenever a source deals damage to Phyrexian Canceller, that source's controller sacrifices that many permanents
5/5

Insane for mono black. It's a reverse Negator. Granted, it still dies to swords, but I'm super stoked about it.

Jin15

04-10-2011, 04:03 AM

I'm pretty stoked about the Canceller as well!
His mana cost is pretty stiff at "BBBB", but aside from that he seems like hands down the most aggressive black creature ever printed for 4 CMC or less.
I do have my concerns about him messing with the curve of the deck (almost all previous non-Hatred builds have curved out at 3 CMC) and not being castable without a turn 2 or 3 Dark Ritual though. Most Sui-Black builds run anywhere from 12 to 17 Swamps so the odds of assembling BBBB mana in a quick time frame during any given game are pretty slim without a Dark Ritual. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying that it's not do-able, but if we were to run the new Canceller I'm thinking a set of Chrome Mox might be in order to give us the consistent ability to power out something that costs 4 CMC of all black mana during the first couple turns.

The dude is one serious house though, and I have a feeling that dropping him early is going to be GG against most any deck that isn't packing white. If they don't have Swords there's just not many ways to deal with him that don't end up sweeping their own board in the process. I too am greatly looking forward to testing this new beast in my Suicide build! =D

necrowil

04-13-2011, 03:52 PM

for suicide, and i would say Jin15's deck list is a classic solid suicide build, the question becomes what would you cut in your deck to fit in Phyrexian Canceller? your list is pretty tight main deck. maybe play it in the sideboard as additional creatures on top of the ones you aready have. but honestly i think it belongs in a mono black control build which runs arena and the like. i don't think its beatdown. someone wrote for a creature to be even considered beat down its power has to be equal to or greater then its casting costs. its a good card, but i don't think its a suicide card imho

maximumcarnage

04-13-2011, 10:25 PM

someone wrote for a creature to be even considered beat down its power has to be equal to or greater then its casting costs.

It is. With trample and another obviously sickening ability.

necrowil

04-15-2011, 11:41 AM

guess we will have to see about canceller. but right now vial affinity is the fastest deck in the format as far as aggressive builds and i can't see waiting for BBBB to play canceller. by turn 3 or 5 usually you are dead or close to it. which is leading me to my current hatred build which is testing very smoothly now. i think the deck is playable, just needed an update.

i added signal pest main deck which has made the shadow creatures really ill. before yeah i would say they were subpar. a 2/2 shadow creature who cares really. but signal pest not only pumps them up but also has evasion itself. so now your shadows are 3/2 or even more at times. the evasion of signal pest allows you to cast hatred on it which is an ideal hatred target. pest is way better then the zombies. i'm also going to be testing ornithopter and putrid imp in the deck since they both fly and have evasion as well. will also be looking for any other creatures i may have overlooked like signal pest. if you can swing every turn and not get blocked and get pumped up, that is some kind of tech in hatred. also signal pest allows you to pay less life for hatred leaving you in a slightly less vulnerable spot.

main deck phyrexian revoker also gives the deck game vs Jace, Sensei's Divining Top, Aether Vial, Isochron Scepter, Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager and Vedalkan Shackles as well as any annoying equipment like Jitte.

lastly, mesmeric fiend is proving incredibly strong in the current format. i can't tell you how many times i have killed opponents by casting hatred on turn 3 with mesmeric fiend. people laugh sure, but they are dead. after you see their hand, you just kill them. i got the idea from a guy i tested with ages ago named BEEFED. here is the old thread. BEEFED also recommended putrid imp in this thread as well.

http://forum.tcgplayer.com/showthread.php?686-Deck-Discussion-Hatred-Suicide-Black/page4&

the negators are gone. the main reason i ran them is the deck needed more damage, now signal pest has answered that so, no need really.

hatred

sideboard
4 cursed scroll
4 dystopia
2 umezawa's jitte
2 faerie macabre
2 extirpate
1 bojuka bog

main
13 swamp
4 crystal vein
4 wasteland
1 bojuka bog
4 dark ritual
4 hatred
1 diabolic intent
1 grim tutor
4 vampire lacerator (may drop this for ornithopter or putrid imp for evasion, still testing)
4 signal pest
4 phyrexian revoker
4 mesmeric fiend
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 hypnotic specter

it is funny how strong pest is in this deck. even if they kill it, it doesn't matter really. even if you just swing for 1 turn with it, the damage is done. its unreal. i expect to see it in other aggressive decks as well beyond affinity. the deck is really fast. once i have some tournament results i will post them here.

also for those who are running phylactery lich you may want to add signal pest and phyrexian revoker for additional phylactery targets. if i were running lich i would also run jitte and cursed scroll main deck. i doubt i can squeeze lich into this deck. no need really. and it doesn’t have evasion anyway.

peace.

necrowil

“I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

TheDarkshineKnight

04-15-2011, 12:00 PM

It's not exactly hard to get Canceller out early. You would have to change the deck significantly to do it, however. Obviously, it's easy enough to pump him out Turn 2 if you're playing Rituals which you should be as this is bloody Sui Black. Getting him out Turn 1, however, would require the use of more Mana Accel. Chrome Mox works well for this (and I don't mind the card disadvantage if I've got a Turn freaking 1 Canceller), but I'm personally partial to Mox Diamond. Yes, you would need to run quite a few Swamps, but that allows you to make your yard bigger fairly quickly and thereby get a big fat Tombstalker out earlier.

You know what, never mind all of this for Sui. Canceller doesn't belong in it. This sounds like the making of a midrange monster.

Jin15

04-25-2011, 09:01 PM

After doing a bit of testing I've come to the distinct conclusion that the new Phyrexian Obliterator just doesn't fit in a traditional heavily aggro Suicide Black build. It's partially because he requires all black mana, but mainly because he costs 4 and the deck doesn't seem to play very smoothly with anything over 3 CMC in it. For more midrange and controlling mono black decks like The Gate I can see him being very good, but for Sui-Black I think his mana cost is a bit too restrictive.

On a completely different note, I've actually been trying some re-worked versions of Sui-Black lately and I'm not sure exactly which I like better. My original tested list...

===============
Legacy - Suicide Black
===============

[24 Creatures]
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Flesh Reaver
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter

[16 Spells]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

[20 Lands]
4 Wasteland
16 Swamp

~~~~~~~
Sideboard
~~~~~~~
2 Pithing Needle
3 Planar Void
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Perish
4 Snuff Out

Or this new more heavily aggro list I've been toying with...

=====================
Legacy - Beatdown Suicide Black
=====================

[24 Creatures]
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Flesh Reaver
4 Phyrexian Negator

[7 Artifacts / Enchantments]
4 Unholy Strength
3 Cursed Scroll

[8 Spells]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out

[21 Lands]
4 Wasteland
17 Swamp

~~~~~~~
Sideboard
~~~~~~~
3 Pithing Needle
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Dread of Night
2 Forsaken Wastes
4 Mindbreak Trap

The more I play the second list the more I've come to like it. The basic principle was to remove anything from the deck that didn't serve the express purpose of killing the opponent or removing blockers and replacing them with things that did. I think this harkens back to something pro tour player David Price said a long time ago... "While there are wrong answers, there are no wrong threats."
So I took out the 4x Sinkhole, 4x Thoughtseize, and 4x Hymn to Tourach since they didn't help kill the opponent nor were they guaranteed methods of getting rid of blockers and replaced them with 4x Snuff Out, 4x Unholy Strength, 3x Cursed Scroll, and 1x additional Swamp. Also the Hypnotic Specters were removed in favor of Wretched Anurid, since he has a better power & toughness of 3/3 rather than 2/2 and costs one less mana to cast to boot. This goes along with the whole ideology of this deck, which is to kill the opponent as quickly as possible with the biggest black creatures available for their casting cost. Nothing more and nothing less.

Overall I feel these changes do make the deck a great deal more aggressive and consistent. I'm sure I'll get some weird looks for the inclusion of things like Unholy Strength, which is clearly card dis-advantage, but repeated testing has shown it to be effective for me at getting in for at least 4 extra damage each game. It also helps the little zombies (Carnophage and Sarcomancy) continue to be relevant and effective at fighting through the mid game if the opponent starts playing some blockers.

The only thing I'm still uncertain about for this new list is the 3x Cursed Scroll and 1x extra Swamp. I've been seriously considering replacing them with 4x Bad Moon since that would help get extra damage in and unlike the Scrolls it's never a dead draw when you draw multiples of them. On the flip side, I do really like having 7 forms of creature removal in the deck (4x Snuff out & 3x Cursed Scroll) and the deck does empty it's hand fast enough to make the Scroll useful.
I'm also still not fully decided on the sideboard. I rarely see other mono black decks in my meta, but when I do get matched up against one (The Gate usually) I'd really like to have some effective removal other than Snuff Out handy to deal with their creatures. Because of this I'm thinking that Diabolic Edict may take the 3x slot in the sideboard that Dread of Night is currently in.

To Necrowil and others, what are your thoughts on my new list and the overall philosophy of removing some "answers" for more "threats"?

Darkenslight

04-26-2011, 05:10 AM

After doing a bit of testing I've come to the distinct conclusion that the new Phyrexian Obliterator just doesn't fit in a traditional heavily aggro Suicide Black build. It's partially because he requires all black mana, but mainly because he costs 4 and the deck doesn't seem to play very smoothly with anything over 3 CMC in it. For more midrange and controlling mono black decks like The Gate I can see him being very good, but for Sui-Black I think his mana cost is a bit too restrictive.

On a completely different note, I've actually been trying some re-worked versions of Sui-Black lately and I'm not sure exactly which I like better. My original tested list...

Or this new more heavily aggro list I've been toying with...

The more I play the second list the more I've come to like it. The basic principle was to remove anything from the deck that didn't serve the express purpose of killing the opponent or removing blockers and replacing them with things that did. I think this harkens back to something pro tour player David Price said a long time ago... "While there are wrong answers, there are no wrong threats."
So I took out the 4x Sinkhole, 4x Thoughtseize, and 4x Hymn to Tourach since they didn't help kill the opponent nor were they guaranteed methods of getting rid of blockers and replaced them with 4x Snuff Out, 4x Unholy Strength, 3x Cursed Scroll, and 1x additional Swamp. Also the Hypnotic Specters were removed in favor of Wretched Anurid, since he has a better power & toughness of 3/3 rather than 2/2 and costs one less mana to cast to boot. This goes along with the whole ideology of this deck, which is to kill the opponent as quickly as possible with the biggest black creatures available for their casting cost. Nothing more and nothing less.

Overall I feel these changes do make the deck a great deal more aggressive and consistent. I'm sure I'll get some weird looks for the inclusion of things like Unholy Strength, which is clearly card dis-advantage, but repeated testing has shown it to be effective for me at getting in for at least 4 extra damage each game. It also helps the little zombies (Carnophage and Sarcomancy) continue to be relevant and effective at fighting through the mid game if the opponent starts playing some blockers.

The only thing I'm still uncertain about for this new list is the 3x Cursed Scroll and 1x extra Swamp. I've been seriously considering replacing them with 4x Bad Moon since that would help get extra damage in and unlike the Scrolls it's never a dead draw when you draw multiples of them. On the flip side, I do really like having 7 forms of creature removal in the deck (4x Snuff out & 3x Cursed Scroll) and the deck does empty it's hand fast enough to make the Scroll useful.
I'm also still not fully decided on the sideboard. I rarely see other mono black decks in my meta, but when I do get matched up against one (The Gate usually) I'd really like to have some effective removal other than Snuff Out handy to deal with their creatures. Because of this I'm thinking that Diabolic Edict may take the 3x slot in the sideboard that Dread of Night is currently in.

To Necrowil and others, what are your thoughts on my new list and the overall philosophy of removing some "answers" for more "threats"?

Go for the Throat in the SB?

necrowil

04-27-2011, 05:29 PM

You may want to experiment with Soul Spike. Like 1 to 4. Soul Spike is black’s version of Fireblast in my opinion. It’s definitely faster then Cursed Scroll and if you get stuck holding extra Unholy Strengths after they have taken care of your creatures you can just throw them at your opponent. I don’t think Cursed Scroll belongs main deck really. But I would run it over Snuff Out in the main. I would also start Jitte over Scrolls. Snuff main is another reason you may want Soul Spike in the deck. Snuff is potentially a dead card. So you may try

-4 Unholy Strength
+3 Umezawa’s Jitte
+1 Cursed Sroll

or the like with Soul Spike or Dark Triumph

I really have not tested Unholy Strength. I can understand how it might be faster. You might also test Sinister Strength as well. I think it costs 1B and gives +3/+1. But I would also investigate main deck Umezawa’s Jitte, like 2 or 3. If only in the sideboard. Yeah, it’s slower, but ritual helps that. The thing is a lot of times if you get Jitte out, they just scoop because some decks cannot deal with it game 1. It also is useful vs other creature decks more then Unholy Strength.

As far as Obliterator, I have not tested it yet, but I’m sure I will probably agree with your findings. Definitely, you have to change the deck to accommodate it. I would add 3 Culling the Weak and two Lake of the Dead to ensure I can see 4 black mana early. Not that hard to achieve. Keep in mind Obliterator may make a solid sideboard card vs red or creature decks even if it has no place main deck. Or it may be a card you run 2 main, 2 in the board. But yeah, I think it belongs in a more control black deck.

You might also try Dark Triumph. It’s free and you can sacrifice Negator if you need to it.

Regarding Hypnotic Specter. As you see, my deck is not running discard spells either like Duress, Thoughtseize and Hymn. Although I may add Hymn because its 2 for 1 usually which helps us. What I run are discard creatures like Mesmeric Fiend and Hypnotic Specter. These cards are really strong in my deck. I can’t tell you how many times I have killed someone with Mesmeric Fiend on Turn 3 after seeing they have no way to stop it on turn 2 with. Specter may not deal a ton of damage, but I guarantee you, removing the cards from your opponents hand will win you many games. I don’t like Wretched Anurid at all. If I played him, I might play 1. No more. If you have 2 out and they play 3 spells… that hurts. Honestly I think Skittering Skirge is a better card.

Also another card which I love in this deck is Signal Pest. It’s good in my deck because of the fact it cannot be blocked except by creatures with flying to reach and it boosts all of my creatures. It’s a good target for Hatred. If they kill it who cares?

Also Phyrexian Revoker is good against a lot of decks like Countertop or Vedalken Shacklers or any activated card decks really. I like them a lot in the board.

Anyway, I know it’s a lot of suggestions, but I hope that helps.

Peace.

Necrowil

“I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

Jin15

04-28-2011, 03:14 AM

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Necrowil! :)

First off, in regards to Soul Spike I really like it and think it merits testing. It's not as situational as Kaervek's Spite and as you said is very much like having a black Fireblast. I could definitely see running it as a 4 of since it's never bad to draw multiples, since you can just pitch the multiple to the one you cast. I'm going to give it a shot at some point soon and report back with my findings.

In regards to Unholy Strength and Sinister Strength, while I'm not a big fan of Sinister Strength due to it costing 2 CMC I'd strongly encourage you to give Unholy Strength a try. I know it seems really janky but I assure you it does work quite well in straight up aggro builds. At worst it gives you what amounts to a black Shock and at best it can shorten games by several turns, help run over larger creatures with previously smaller ones, and get in for 4 or more damage in a game from only a single mana. It also works to slap on a little Zombie to draw out a Swords to Plowshares on it so your bigger creatures can get through. When that happens you basically pay [B] to gain 2 life and redirect an opponent's removal to one of your less powerful creatures rather than a more important one. And don't even get me started on the ridiculous turn 1 Dark Ritual plays you can do with it. Land, Dark Rit, Sarcomancy, Carnophage, Unholy Strength. Or Land, Dark Rit, Flesh Reaver, Unholy Strength. Either way your opponent is now on 4 turn clock to deal with your 6 power worth of beaters on turn one, or 3 turns if they fetch twice or if you have a Soul Spike / Kaervek's Spite in hand.
So yeah, as bad as it might initially seem I think Unholy Strength is just awesome in Suicide Black and I'd highly encourage giving it a try.

On to the matter of creatures... I love Hypnotic Specter. He's won me several games just by the fact that he forces a random discard every turn. After 2 or 3 hits with him the opponent is in what just about amounts to a soft lock. My problem with him though, and the reason I cut him from my list, is that running six creatures that cost 3 CMC really felt like it was bogging down the deck and muddling up the mana curve. So I came to the conclusion that I needed to pick between Phyrexian Negator and Hypnotic Specter to keep the mana curve smooth, and being a 5/5 trample for [2][B] seemed more in line with the deck's goal of killing the opponent as quickly as possible than a 2/2 flyer for [1][B][B] so I went with the Negator.

The one creature in the deck I am kinda iffy about though is, as you mentioned, the Wretched Anurid. I really feel like the deck needs 23 or 24 creatures to be an effective aggro deck, and Anurid is really efficient being a 3/3 for [1][B], but he's probably the least impressive of any creature in the deck and quite risky since unlike every other creature that loses you life there's just no way to shut off the life loss from Anurid. With Carnophage you can choose to tap him, with Flesh Reaver you can choose not to attack, and with Sarcomancy you can just play another zombie and the life loss shuts off. But with Wretched Anurid there's just no way to stop the bleeding. On the upside though he does play nicely with Wasteland due to his [1][B] casting cost, can be a 5/4 on turn 1 off a Dark Ritual + Unholy Strength, will shut off life loss from Sarcomancy since he is a Zombie, and is just generally really solid in terms of efficiency being 3/3 for 2 CMC. Still though, the inability to shut off life loss from him is a bit of a concern so I am looking into other potential options to replace him.
Your suggestion of Skittering Skirge is an interesting one worth consideration, but I do think he's counterproductive to the deck's overall goal of being as aggro as possible since once you play him you can't play any other creatures without killing him. I'm still willing to give him a test though to see how it goes.

Right now the creature I'm favoring the most to replace Wretched Anurid with is hands down Black Knight. The Knight would certainly be the least efficient creature in the deck, since his power is equal to his casting cost (unlike every other creature who's power is greater than their casting cost or in the case of Nantuko Shade will quickly become greater) but I can't help but feel he'd be pretty awesome in the current format due to having first strike and protection from White. Pro-white in legacy right now means protection from the 2 most commonly played removal spells : Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile. He also has protection from Vindicate, Lightning Helix, Snuff Out, Ghastly Demise, Vendetta, Doom Blade / Terror, Steppe Lynx, Loam Lion, Quasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary, Serra Avenger, Stoneforge Mystic, the [b]entire deck Death and Taxes, and quite a bit more as well. This makes him a fantastic beater and would be the best target in the deck for Unholy Strength. He blanks removal and cruises past a large number of creatures in the format, and since he has First Strike that means the ones who can block him will likely have to chump rather than trade (especially if he's pumped from Bad Moon or Unholy Strength).

Alternately the pump knights (Order of the Ebon Hand, Knight of Stromgald, and Stromgald Crusader) could be worth consideration but I think given how tight the mana curve is in the deck and the fact that we're already running Nantuko Shade makes Black Knight just plain better in terms of efficiency. Lastly, not that it's a real factor or anything, but the art and flavor text on the Alpha/Beta/Unlimited/Revised versions of Black Knight are totally awesome lol
In any case, I will be testing Black Knight in place of Wretched Anurid to see what I think.

There's a lot more I'd like to talk about, but I've probably babbled on for long enough for I'll leave it at this...
- You're right, Phyrexian Revoker is perfect for the sideboard. He beats, he hates, he plays nice with Wasteland.
- Yixlid Jailer is also excellent for hating and beating. Graveyard based combo decks rarely have a way to deal with him in my experience since the removal they usually board in is for artifacts & enchantments.
- I'm still not sold on Signal Pest, since he can't attack on his own. I might think differently if I played Hatred. Also, Jitte seems too slow and mana intensive to me but I could be wrong.
- I'm not a fan of running any non-basics other than Wasteland, since that makes you vulnerable to Wasteland in a deck that is already really tight on permanent black mana sources and Wasteland is being played in larger numbers than ever right now.
- Not firmly sold on Bad Moon yet, but I am trying it since it is much better in multiples than Cursed Scroll and is immediately useful.
- I've tweaked the sideboard a lot and I'm really happy with it now. It's mostly hate for combo since we flat out win control matches and most aggro matchups are pretty good as well. Diabolic Edict has been added to keep removal handy against other mono black decks and is also useful to deal with Emrakul, Progenitus, and other large creatures in the Sneak & Show matchup.

Cue current list...

=========
Suicide Black
=========

[24 Creatures]
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Wretched Anurid (might get replaced by Black Knight)
4 Flesh Reaver
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator

[8 Spells]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out

[8 Enchantments]
4 Unholy Strength
4 Bad Moon (will test Soul Spike in this slot at some future point)

[20 Lands]
4 Wasteland
16 Swamp

~~~~~~~
Sideboard
~~~~~~~
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Forsaken Wastes
4 Mindbreak Trap

necrowil

04-28-2011, 10:41 AM

Yeah, I feel you on the hippy. Negator is beatdown. Hippy is like agro control. Your deck is pure aggro and mine is aggro control combo really so they obviously will be different. A while back, I suggested you replace Carnophage with Vampire Lacerator simply because it’s a better card. Check out Robert the Bruce’s list back on page 85. It’s Hatred but Lacerator is just a better card to run over Carnophage. Robert the Bruce runs both. Definitely over Anurid. Pure agro is really a black sligh deck. I think black knight is slow.

I’d probably run

16 swamp
4 city of traitors

4 sarcomancy
4 carnophage
4 vampire lacerator
4 flesh reaver
4 nantuko shade
4 phyrexian negator

4 dark ritual
4 unholy strength
4 dark triumph
4 soul spike

But like I said I have not tried Unholy Strength. And yeah, pest is probably not as good in your deck, but in my deck, my creatures are smaller and have evasion. Evasion is king for hatred. But I don’t think there is a reason not to play Lacerator really.

Also City let’s you play a turn 2 Negator since you are concerned about 3cc. You could run Wasteland in the Sideboard if needed. But Anurid is a bad card in this deck in my opinion. The only reason I’m suggesting Triumph is for the occasion when you really don’t want to take damage to your Flesh Reaver or your Negator. They sit in your hand til you need them and you can pitch them to Spike.

Peace.

Necrowil

“I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

Greenpoe

04-28-2011, 12:15 PM

What do you guys think about a Phyrexian Obliterator, Hatred, Dark Ritual build with 3 Lake of the Dead? Lake of the Dead works well when you get enough swamps, so it may require Confidant to feed the Lake. Maybe a couple Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to turn extra Lakes into swamps. Nantuko Shade would like all the mana from Lake of the Dead, too. Probably too inconsistent to work, though.

Richard Cheese

04-28-2011, 12:27 PM

Jin15

04-28-2011, 01:24 PM

Please forgive my laziness, but I have a few questions about this archetype and I would really appreciate if someone that has followed this deck for a while could answer them, rather than having to dig through 90 pages of discussion.

First, why no Bob? I understand that most of the creatures Sui Black runs have power > casting cost, but he still swings for 2, and the (non-hatred) curve of the deck is extremely low. It seems like if you could get one to stick around for even a couple turns, you could drastically increase the pressure on your opponent.

Also, I don't really understand why Obliterator has already been dismissed. Looking at the creatures in recent lists, don't you have problems with the number of low-cost fatties that inhabit the meta now? Even though you can drop potentially 5 2/x creatures by turn 2, Zoo can drop a 3/3 cat and a ~3/4 goyf by then, followed by a 4/4+ knight the turn after that. Even with negator, don't you hit a point of diminishing returns fairly quickly?

I've been thinking of taking my Deadguy list in a more aggro/sui direction, and just want to get a better understanding of the deck and how it plays out.

Well I can't speak for everyone else, but I can tell you why I don't run Bob. The reason is because, as you pointed out, he's not terribly efficient due to being a 2/1 for [1][B]. This lack of aggressivness is compounded by the fact that once you play him you want to start drawing extra cards every turn so you often find yourself not swinging with him for fear of him being blocked and lost. Also, the amount of life loss you can take before you start losing life at a faster rate than the opponent is a fine line in this deck. I run Carnophage, Sarcomancy, Wretched Anurid, Flesh Reaver, and Snuff Out so I end up losing a lot of life over the course of a game. Most often this life loss is at just a slightly slower rate than the opponent is losing life to my creatures, and the addition of Bob (which I have tested) causes me to end up losing life at a faster rate the opponent more often than not. In pure beatdown builds like mine, which suffer massive life loss during a game, you really need your creatures to be as big and aggressive as possible to insure that you kill the opponent before you end up killing yourself. There's no time to wait, draw some extra cards, and accumulate card advatanage.
The only focus of the deck is to kill the opponent as fast as possible. No concern for card advantage or trying to control the board here, just killing the opponent as fast as possible without killing yourself first. That's the goal of a beatdown Sui-Black deck like mine, so every card in the main deck is chosen for the purposes of killing the opponent as quickly as possible or removing blocker that might get in your way.

In regards to the Obliterator, I think it just comes down to his mana cost. If you want to run things like Lake of the Dead and Chrome Mox to increase the consistency of your ability to get him out early than I'd say go for it. I just prefer to stick with Swamps and Wastelands for consistency reasons and I'm pretty happy with the 5/5 trample for [2][B] that I've got. It seems counter productive to me to make the mana base weaker and more vulnerable to Wasteland so I can pay [B][B][B][B] for a 5/5 trample when I can leave things nice and consistent the way they are and pay [2][B] for a 5/5 trample instead.

In regards to the Zoo issue, there's really only 1 person in my meta who plays Zoo and I've actually never been matched up against him. Against decks like Merfolk and Goblins (which there are a fair number of in my meta, mainly Merfolk) I'm not too concerned since my creatures are always bigger than theirs so I tend to keep the opponent always on the defensive and chump blocking. If there was more Zoo in my meta I might consider alternate choices (like playing creatures with evasion + Hatred like Necrowil) but since my meta is mostly combo & control my creatures choices function very well. I will do some testing against Zoo on thursday (a week from today) and let you know how it goes though. I'm feeling pretty confident that when running Wretched Anurid, Flesh Reaver, Phyrexian Negator, Unholy Strength, and Bad Moon my creatures will be consistently bigger than theirs and still keep them on the defensive, but I honestly won't be able to say for sure until I do some real testing against Zoo. Fortunately the 1 Zoo player in my meta is a friend of mine so getting him to test against me should be pretty easy :)

necrowil

04-28-2011, 03:41 PM

so did you check out lacerator?

Jin15

04-28-2011, 04:02 PM

so did you check out lacerator?

I do like the Lacerator, and I own a set as well, but I still prefer Carnophage. The reasoning being is that Carnophage will shut off life loss from Sarcomancy (this is a huge plus to me) and he always gives you the option of whether or not to lose life to him. With Lacerator you have to lose life unless the opponent is at less than 10, where as with Carnophage you can always choose to tap him during your upkeep to shut off the life loss. Mind you this rarely ever becomes an issue, but there are times when it is (especially in my build due to the other creatures I play that lose me life and Snuff Out) and in those times I'm happy to have Carnophage instead.

I certainly wouldn't advise anyone against playing Vampire Lacerator, since he's definitely one of the best aggressive black 1 drops ever, but for various reasons I do prefer Carnophage. If I wanted more than 8 one drop creatures though I'd definitely run Lacerator as well.

necrowil

05-01-2011, 01:51 AM

Well I gave Unholy Strength a try. I really like it. Thanks for the suggestion. And yeah, the deck looks pretty damn janky now but plays well. Usually what ends up happening is I play my creatures 1st and the ones they can’t deal with get pumped up with unholy strength and yeah they end up wasting removal on signal pest and the like. Also I abandoned Wastelands now in favor of Phyrexian Revoker. This card alone shuts down so much that Suicide has trouble with from Maze of Ith, Pernicious Deed, Jace, Sensei’s Divining Top, Grim Lavamancer, Vedalkan Shackles, etc. If you haven’t checked it out, its an awesome sideboard card. My board is

Sideboard

4 phyrexian revoker
4 cursed scroll
2 faerie macabre
2 bojuka bog
2 extirpate
1 umezawa’s jitte

The main deck looks plays and feels odd. The tutors are not fantastic but they do help me kill someone faster at times. Where they really shine is game 2. I tutor for any card I need. But again my deck is agro-control-combo so obviously our lists are different. I’m still a fan of using Jitte main over cursed scroll, but I hear you on them being slow, but its still a broken card in most games. I also am play the new Vault Skirge main deck which gives all my creatures evasion so I basically, never get blocked.

Main

14 swamp
4 crystal vein

4 dark ritual
4 unholy strength
4 hatred
2 umezawa’s jitte
2 diabolic intent
2 grim tutor

4 vault skirge
4 signal pest
4 mesmeric fiend
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 hypnotic specter

I was kind of surprised how good the card is. Especially with Signal Pest. If both start swing you start gaining mad life, plus Unholy Strength is basically made for it. And finally, I tried out Obliterator and liked it more then I thought I would, but I had to change my mana base to this

18 swamp
1 lake of the dead
4 dark ritual
3 culling the weak

This basically guaranteed I could cast it. But its excessive. Its basically 28 possible sources of black. You really don’t want more then 1 lake in a game or more then 3 Culling the Weak, but he’s good. I think it could be a strong card in another deck. Also I can’t use Soul Spike in my deck as I’m running artifacts.

I think if you built an agro control version of suicide black it could work with discard and sinkhole and optimum creatures, but neither of our decks is pure agro control. Something like

18 swamp
4 wasteland
2 lake of the dead
4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 go for the throat
4 nantuko shade
4 flesh reaver
4 phyrexian negator
4 hypnotic specter
4 phyrexian obliterator

but I’m not interested in that because it doesn’t kill the opponent fast enough. Both of us run faster decks then that.

Peace.

Necrowil

“I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

necrowil

05-05-2011, 02:57 PM

Jin,

instead of Wretched Anurid, have you tried running Bloodghast? I think it's going to be a stronger card for you since you weren't interested in Lacerator. I'm actually moving to all 1-2 drop guys with Bloodghast also. It's a good card because basically they will have to remove it form the game. Meanwhile it keeps coming back.

Peace.

Necrowil

“I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

JCLe

05-05-2011, 03:05 PM

Bloodghast goes well with culling the weak if your actually gonna run that card too.

Also you mentionned phyrexian revoker, take note it says nonland permanent so it can't name maze of ith (thought I'd post just so you don't get screwed by someone)

Clark Kant

05-05-2011, 03:51 PM

So now that Obliterator has entered the equation, which creature better rounds out the deck, Tombstalker or Dark Cofidant?

If the answer is Dark Confidant, something similar to my approach to The Gate should work quite well...

4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Go for the Throat
3 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mental Misstep
2 Smother
2 Hypnotic Specter
2 Umezawa's Jitte

20 Swamp

necrowil

05-06-2011, 12:57 PM

i've been working on a monoblack aggro-control deck but i would not call it suicide black really

main
18 snow-covered swamp
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 phyrexian arena
4 hymn to tourach
4 go for the throat
2 withering wisps
4 nantuko shade
4 bloodghast
4 hypnotic specter
4 vampire nighthawk
4 gatekeeper of malakir

the sideboard is still in the works but it plays quite well. i like arena over confidant. i also like withering wisps a lot with bloodghast you can keep it in play. i may add thoughtseize main deck but i'm not sure what i would cut for it. the object is play arena. draw a bunch of cards, remove there hand, then their threats and then them. its slow but effective

Jin15

05-08-2011, 03:24 AM

I do really like your mono black aggro/control list necrowil! It's not really Sui, but it looks pretty darn solid. The only things I would change if I was building it would be to swap the 2 Withering Wisps out for 2 Damnation since it seems a bit more efficient and less self damaging if mass removal is what you're after and swap the Arenas for Confidants since you have no way to get rid of the Arena but Confidants can be easily removed. It just seems to me like in a control deck that looks more towards the late game that putting yourself on any kind of clock to win by might not be the best idea. Also, I'd probably drop the Dark Rituals for Thoughtsieze or Inquisition of Kozilek since this deck looks like more of a late game focused deck that isn't particularly tempo driven.

Those are just my thoughts though, and having never played the particular deck in question I'm just going on theory where as you've been actually playing with it so I could be totally off the mark here.

Back on the topic of Sui-Black I did finally get all the cards I needed for my Sui list and played it in a 26 (I think? It was 20-something at least) person Legacy tournament on thursday. For reference, here's the list I played...

=========
Suicide Black
=========

[24 Creatures]
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Flesh Reaver
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator

[8 Spells]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out

[8 Enchantments]
4 Unholy Strength
4 Bad Moon

[20 Lands]
4 Wasteland
16 Swamp

~~~~~~~
Sideboard
~~~~~~~
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Forsakan Wastes
4 Mindbreak Trap

I ended up going 2-2, which I was okay with for my first shot and testing an new deck in a well developed metagame. My 2 wins were against ANT and Affinity and my 2 losses were to Hate Crimes (that B/W Vial list from the recent Star City tournament) and Reanimator. The win against Affinity was hard fought but manageable after boarding in Phyrexian Revoker and Diabolic Edict to increase my removal and give me a way to shut off Cranial Plating. Against ANT it was just a matter of out racing him Game 1 and then boarding in 4 Mindbreak Trap and getting one in my opening hand on Game 2, so pretty easy stuff there.

The wins weren't the interesting part though, what was of real interest to me were the losses since those taught me a good bit about how to improve my deck. The first big thing I learned was that I'm going to be waaaaay better off running 4 Cursed Scroll in the spot that the 4 Bad Moon are in. During game 2 in both the Renanimator and Hate Crimes matchups I found myself in a position where I either had a Bad Moon on the board or in my hand and lost, but could have won if that Bad Moon had been a Cursed Scroll instead.
In the Reanimator matchup it came down to me getting him to 4 life before he reanimated Blazing Archon one turn and then Iona the next. At that point I was holding a Bad Moon and a Swamp in my hand, had 4 lands and a bunch of creatures on the board, and couldn't attack due to the Archon and couldn't play anything black due to the Iona. If that Bad Moon was a Cursed Scroll I could have won.
In the Hate Crimes match it was just a matter of him having a bunch of little 1 and 2 toughness dudes (Mother of Runes, Tidehollow Sculler, Confidant, Phyrexian Revoker, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.) that I couldn't always kill with Snuff Out due to some of them being black and Mom giving the others pro-black. I got enough land to the point that I could have been using 2 Cursed Scrolls at once but alas, what was sitting on the board was 2 Bad Moon which only made his creatures kill me faster. That was a situation in which I really needed some colorless and reusable removal and I'm quite certain I could have won the matchup if my Bad Moons were Cursed Scrolls.

Additional testing after the tournament against other aggro decks like Zoo, Merfolk, and Aggro Elves confirmed to me once again that the Moons are coming out for Scrolls. They lower the mana curve and give my Sui list a heck of a lot better matchup against other aggro decks I think. Control and combo decks are generally very good matchups for Sui, but other aggro decks (and even midrange decks that pack a decent number of creatures) can be very difficult for my Sui list to deal with and the Scrolls go a long way towards improving these more difficult matchups.

Lastly, I've come to the definite conclusion that Pithing Needle will be taking the sideboard slot of Phyrexian Revoker and Planar Void will be replacing Yixlid Jailer. I found the Revokers to be too vulnerable to removal in situations where I absolutely had to shut off an artifact if I wanted to win (such as a Jitte or Cranial Plating for example). Sure, the Revokers can beat as well as hate, but the situations where I find myself boarding them in are ones where I will almost surely lose the game if I don't shut off whatever it is that's causing me trouble, and in those situations I want my hate to be as impervious to removal as possible. Planar Void will be replacing Yixlid Jailer for the simple reason of it being more versatile. It can come in against Zoo and aggro Loam to shut down Tarmogoyf and KotR, works effectively against Reanimator, and can hate on Dredge as well. Where as I think the only thing the Jailer is really effective at hating on is Dredge and Breakfast and that's pretty much it. Versatility + a lower mana cost is a good thing I think :)

Which brings me to the matter of Necrowil's suggestion of Bloodghast! He's is a cool dude for sure and I love him in Pox. Even though his power doesn't exceed his mana cost the fact that in absence of graveyard hate he's pretty much immortal is rather awesome. However, since I am going to be running Planar Void as my graveyard hate of choice I think I'm going to pass on Bloodghast and keep running Wretched Anurid for the time being. There is a new creature from New Phyrexia though that I think could potentially replace Wretched Anurid and may be more effective. That being the phyrexian white mana creature Porcelain Legionnaire. Getting a 3/1 first strike creature for 2 generic mana and 2 life seems pretty solid to me and would probably result in less life loss of the course of most games than the Anurid. And when coupled with Unholy Strength I think a 5/2 first strike creature could be pretty tough for a lot of opponents to deal with if they don't draw the Swords. On the downside though he's a bit more vulnerable to burn spells.

Anyhoo, I've babbled on long enough for now so I'll leave you with my current and post-tournament updated list with the changes made that I feel will improve the deck's overall performance in the next tournament I attend...

=========
Suicide Black
=========

[24 Creatures]
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Wretched Anurid
4 Flesh Reaver
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator

[8 Spells]
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out

[8 Artifacts/Enchantments]
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Unholy Strength

[20 Lands]
4 Wasteland
16 Swamp

~~~~~~~
Sideboard
~~~~~~~
3 Pithing Needle
3 Planar Void
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Forsakan Wastes
4 Mindbreak Trap

unicoerner

05-08-2011, 06:20 AM

I probably miss sth. here. You mentioned your Combo MU is good, how can that be.
Your goldfish win is probably turn 3-4 leaning towards 4-5. You have 0 disruption for combo in the main and only 4 Traps in the side.
I like the idea of Scroll btw.

necrowil

05-10-2011, 10:28 PM

Rituals stay in any black deck out there in my opinion. Legacy is a format you need to be fast. You want to go Dark Ritual, Arena, go with this deck and the bottom line with putting yourself on a clock is this. If you are drawing more cards then your opponent is and can’t win, then you or your deck suck. That philosophy goes all the way back to Dennis Bentley’s Necrodeck which ran 4 copies of Necropotence and no way to get rid of it. And in his deck you wanted to go Ritual, Necropotence, Pay 4 to 5 life, go. I removed Go for the Throat in favor of Thoughtseize. And the deal with Withering Wisps is another win condition with Bloodghast. Wisps is also in there to damage any Planeswalker’s out there like Jace. I want to put in Promise of Power for even more card drawing so I can use Soul Spike.

I find it interesting that you were able to race Affinity and win. I’m sure it was close. That is a tough matchup for me, but my creatures are smaller then yours.

I don’t like Planar Void for the simple reason if they already have their cards in the graveyard they need to kill you then they don’t care. If you cast it and in response they pitch Iona, you are still screwed. Currently, there are a lot of combo decks in the format that abuse the graveyard. It comes this, my entire board is vs graveyard abuse decks and other creature decks bigger then mine. You may not have the 2nd problem. I run 6 cards for graveyard hate and the reality is it may not be enough. If you don’t draw it in your opening hand, do you mulligan? My deck is trying to kill them by turn 3, and I’m seeing now I need to be able to kill them by turn 2. This is why I don’t care that Hatred loses to stuff like Burn. Grand Prix Providence is coming up. You may find a Burn deck in the Top 8, but more then that? I seriously doubt it. Just look at recent tournaments and see how many are in Top 8 at starcitygames.com. I run this for graveyard hate.

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Extirpate

Six cards for combo decks in the Sideboard, plus main deck Mesmeric Fiends is all I can afford really. That’s 10 cards. If I can’t shut down combo decks with 10 cards and win by turn 3 or 4 then my deck sucks basically. Legacy is defined by combo decks, then aggro control and aggro.

As far as the deck is concerned you can focus on a balance of Hand Destruction, Graveyard Hate and Removal. If you skip one of those, well your deck better be so aggressive that it doesn’t matter what is in their hand or graveyard or what creatures they play.

I think you should check out Bloodghast over Anurid for the following reasons.

Bloodghast no care about being destroyed by Smother
Bloodghast no care about Edict, Innocent Blood and the like
Bloodghast no care about Counterspells
Bloodghast will win you games you should not win
Bloodghast allows me to use cards with Sacrifice effects like Culling the Weak and Diabolic Intent and Smallpox with little Drawback

The card has one me so many games that I am looking to run Entomb main deck to make sure I get them every game and Putrid Imp to make sure I can dump them if I draw them. They are effectively a free creature just because I played a land. And yes, I’m going to add fetches just to ensure I can always put a land in play. The haste aspect is an added bonus late game especially because many rely on sorcery speed spells for removal.

I have been in many situations online recently vs decks like Counter Top where they had no way to deal with Bloodghasts. Sure they run Path to Exile and Swords but they have to find one of those cards. Or Humility or Moat. None of the other cards in their entire deck can really effectively answer it well.

If you really are not sold try out Rotting Giant or Sangrophage. Both have drawbacks that are not as bad as Anurid. I’ve also seen people run 1 Giant and 1 Sangrophage and 2 Anurid also. You should also check out Drekavac. You could play one of each to not be abuse by the effects of any one of them, but personally I’d play Bloodghast.

Snuff Out is one of the best removal cards black has to offer. The problem is there are still a lot of black creatures out there that people will play.

What do you use Forsaken Wastes against? Control? Most combo decks don’t care about it. And what do you side in Pithing Needle against. If you are using it vs CounterTop or Pernicious Deed and the like then I would argue again that Bloodghast is a better card. I used to run Revoker but honestly the format is so fast, he became irrelevant.

Cursed Scroll is a really great card but it is not the answer for everything. 2-4 is a good number.

And Mindbreak Trap, how does that work for you vs a Deck like ANT?

necrowil

05-10-2011, 10:29 PM

Obliterator Hatred

Sideboard
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Extirpate
1 Hecatomb

Main
10 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cursed Scroll
3 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Hatred
4 Sarcomancy
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Bloodghast
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Obliterator

In this deck, I like Phyrexian Obliterator a lot. Game one is designed to beat other aggressive decks. I would say most of the field is some type of aggressive deck. If I need to beat a combo deck well, I side in 14 or 15 cards. 4 Duress, 4 Hymn, 2 Sadistic Sacrament at the minimum. Sacrament is also great vs any deck using Emrakul as a kill card. You just take them from the deck. The Hecatomb is for decks that shut down creatures decks with Moat and Humility. You just sacrifice your creatures to the Hecatomb and kill them with your lands.

By the way, Cursed Scroll is a good way for our decks to deal with Planeswalkers. Since the deck does not really run removal. Obliterator replaces removal in the deck. Eventually they will have to block it.

Between your Jitte, Obliterator and other creature rush, they should have a fairly empty hand so you can cast Hatred. Often I would just leave Obliterator to block. No one wants to have Tarm blocked by Obliterator and I would swing with the flyers in the deck. Crusader is really good for the fact it is a Zombie for Sarcomancy, it’s a pump knight that flies so you are often doing 3 or 4 damage with him and it has Protection from White which is some good.

Qweerios

05-17-2011, 10:32 AM

I have this very straightforward suicide deck that has been performing fairly well lately. Bitterblossom and Bad Moon have been applying so much pressure resolved that most decks cannot handle them.

Creatures (20)
4 Carnophage
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tidehollow Sculler

Spells (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Vindicate

Enchantments (12)
4 Sarcomancy
4 Bitterblossom
4 Bad Moon

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Withered Wretch

boneclub24

05-17-2011, 11:46 AM

necrowil

05-22-2011, 01:54 AM

Extirpate has become an amazing card for Hatred as you are able to cast it at the end of their turn and then Hatred on your turn or simply before you go off. In all likelihood you are choosing Force of Will in their graveyard. The fact they can’t counter it is cool. Also, Obliterator is neither here not there really. Against some decks its amazing, but other decks not so much. The BBBB often has you waiting which is not good. Apart from that, Reckless Spite seems to be good removal. The key is to play as soon as you can to minimize life loss. Late game, well it sucks. But against creature decks its cool like Affinity when you need to kill more then one dude. The Spinning Darkness mitigates the life loss.

Hatred

Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Dread of Night
4 Extirpate
3 Perish

Main
8 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cursed Scroll
3 Hatred
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Spinning Darkness
1 Kaervek’s Spite
1 Reckless Spite
4 Sarcomancy
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Stromgald Crusader
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Bloodghast
4 Hypnotic Specter

So yeah, there is a plague of Jace decks out there and you just side like the following.

-2 Reckless Spite
-2 Umezawa’s Jitte
+4 Extirpate

You leaving Spinning Darkness in to target any Mishra’s Factories. You also don’t use your Dark Ritual early if you have Hatred in hand. You cast Extirpate on some random card preferably Force of Will then kill them with Hatred.

Regarding the Black/White deck yeah, you might ask in the Deadguy Ale thread. Putting white in a black deck just seems somehow wrong. :)

Necrowil

“I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

jmenz

06-01-2011, 12:35 PM

A quick question: Is it peat bog a bad card that no one ever uses it?

Here's the deck I'm currently building:

Lands (20):

13 Swamp
4 Peat Bog
3 Wastelands

Creatures (20):

4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Sarcomancy
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Nantuko Shade

Instants and Sorceries (16):

4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Dark Ritual

Enchantments (4):

4 Bad Moon

Sideboard (15):

4 Planar Void
4 Pithing Needle
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Engineered Plague

Any suggestions?
Also, Nantuko Shade feels like a sub-standard card for my deck. My other prospects for its slot are Bloodghast, Stromgald Crusader, or Flesh Reaver. Which of these should I choose? Or should I cut down on some others spells to include more creatures?

Iare

06-01-2011, 02:51 PM

A quick question: Is it peat bog a bad card that no one ever uses it?

Yes. Peat bog is in fact a horrible card that nobody uses.

jmenz

06-01-2011, 08:02 PM

Yes. Peat bog is in fact a horrible card that nobody uses.

ah your right i didnt notice that it comes into play tapped. Sorry. Anyway, should I use bloodghast for my list?

vikram

06-06-2011, 03:49 AM

I've started with the Gate but wound up with what could be considered a Sui Black deck, one that I'm very happy with performance wise...

21 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
3(2) Rite of Consumption
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Go for the Throat

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3(4) Nyxathid
3 Abyssal Persecutor
4 Phyrexian Obliterator

It's still experimental, but the cards work very well together. Culling the Weak, as janky as it sounds, combos really well with Persectuor, Obliterator, and Nyxathid to end the game. So it has 10 very powerful maindeck cards that it combos very well with. The Persecutor likewise works fine as the deck has 13 ways to get rid of it and only runs 3 copies. It also combos with Confidant to gain you life and buy you time all while at the minimum, shocking your opponent.

iam09

06-06-2011, 11:35 AM

Hi I'm new here, and i big fan of Legacy MBC/Suicide Black. I'll be posting my deck and feel free to share your comments and suggestions. Thanks

Lands: 21

14 swamps
2 Urborg tomb of yawgmowth
4 wasteland
1 volrath's stronghold

Creatures: 15

4Dark Confidant
4Vampire Nighthawk
4Phyrexian Obliterator
3Gate Keeper of Malakir

Instant/Sorceries: 19

4Darkritual
4hymntotorach
4thoughtsieze
3Inquisition of Kozileck
4Go for the throat

Arifacts: 5

3Senie divining top
2Umezawa's Jitte

Thx:laugh:

The Big Ragu

06-06-2011, 03:28 PM

ForlornEgoist

06-07-2011, 01:16 AM

I've never really cared for calling this deck 'Suicide Black' for a couple of reasons. One is that the loss of life isn't really a predominant feature in the deck (especially when cards with life gain are factored in). And two is that there's so many different ways to build this deck. To me this is Mono black aggro/control.

I've never played the deck myself, but I have been working on a deck list as a little side project I may want to toy around with.

Also, why are people running Phyrexian Negators over Obliterators?

We call it Sui-black because in the olden days you would run Carnophage, Phyrexian Negator, Flesh Reaver and other such cards which would have high risks-high rewards attached to them. Obviously with the emergence of 'Goyf/KotR and other such beasties the deck has evolved into aggro control. Rock used to be identified particularly by Spiritmonger and combo-hosing stuff such as MD Therapy and Recurring Nightmare+Eternal Witness/+Cranial Extraction. Obviously the deck has evolved far beyond this but the game plan is very similar to new Rock and the BGW colors are still in tact so we still refer to it as "Rock." Similarly, even though Sui-Black is no longer "suicidal," we accept MBA/Control as the natural evolution of the deck.

As for Phyrexian Negator>Phyrexian Obliterator I assume the choice is preference for what was once the MVP of the deck as well as the possibility for a T1 Negator. Obviously with the emergence of Obliterator we have a better option and I would rather be delayed 1 turn in casting Obliterator than be set back 3-5 turns sacing permanants to Negator. I would advise people looking to retain the Negator in their deck (because of preference not because of efficiency) to look at Phyrexian Totem.

Forlorn Egoist

The Big Ragu

06-08-2011, 03:29 PM

Is The Rack any good in this deck?

ForlornEgoist

06-08-2011, 04:02 PM

It can be depending on your willingness to build around Rack. Its not really a card that you can just throw in randomly. To optimize "Rack," effects you'd also want to consider doing a red splash for Storm World. I'll send you a decklist as I don't want to waste thread space on a list that ultimately strays away from MBA/C and won't be recieving any mainstream attention at tourneys.

Forlorn Egoist

sillyandrew

06-15-2011, 12:38 PM

so i've been working on a (still-hypothetical) suicide black/mono black control list for quite a while now, and i have a few questions. i've been stalking the suicide black/the gate/pox threads here on the source for a while now, dragging ideas from all of them, and think the list i'm starting to settle on is definitely more MBC than anything else, but i still figured this is the place to ask my questions.

1. i can't really decide on the creature base. that's honestly the part of the deck i've had the most trouble with. i've been really attracted to creatures like nantuko shade and hypnotic specter, (ie: creatures that can come down after a swamp -> dark ritual and be a pretty big threat) but i'm wondering how good those creatures actually are, especially in an opening hand that doesn't pack and dark ritual. i'm not a very big black player, but it seems to me like no one really runs these creatures anymore. are nighthawk and gatekeeper their replacements?

2. i've always been a really big fan of grinning demon, even if he is just a worse juzam djinn. has anyone done any playtesting with either of those creatures? the reason i like grinning demon so much (other than the fact that he's an over budgeted beater) is that fact that he has morph. i'm not sure what that could possibly mean, but i'm sure there has to be a way to abuse that ability, (other than the hella-mediocre/bad swamp -> dark ritual -> morphed grinning demon). i suppose a facedown play mid-game into a swing and flip could result in delaying the two damage drawback is probably the whole reason he can morph in the first place. i'm ranting now. has anyone tried grinning demon or juzam djinn?

3. all of the mono-black threads here on the source seem to have really weak sideboards. i know there have been dozens of pages of threads discussing them, but i simply want to know which sideboards specifically have been producing the best results. engineered plague and leyline of the void seem like auto-includes to me, but other than that, i'm pretty lost.

--------

for reference, he's my (probably sub-par) list:

4 hypnotic specter
4 nantuko shade
4 grinning demon

4 duress
4 hymn to tourach

4 snuff out
4 innocent blood

4 flex spot (bottomless pit/phyrexian arena/something else)

4 lotus petal
4 dark ritual

3 peat bog
4 wasteland
13 swamp

--------

the duress slot could easily be any other discard spell. initially, i think duress does the best all around job of stopping/slowing down combo (without the loss of life from thoughtseize) so it's earned the spot for now. the four lotus petal could easily become two more lands and two of something else, but i simply don't know what, and i really like the idea of explosive early games. i've started with snuff out and innocent blood because they're simply the fastest creature kill around, but i could easily drop innocent blood for go for the throat, or geth's verdict, or something like that. i'm unsure of how much of innocent blood will actually end up hindering my own aggro plan.

the flex spots could be more discard? more creature kill? some more acceleration in phyrexian arena. i really don't like bob in a list like this, i feel like it only helps the opponents clock, but running bob might make innocent blood better. i'm leaning towards phyrexian arena, convince me against it.

Gui

06-15-2011, 12:53 PM

So, in my monoblack homebrew, which I don't know if is suicide or not (but I'm guessing not, I don't run Rituals), I run 4 Nantuko Shade and 3 Arrogant Bloodlord.

More often than not, Arrogant is the one that wins me the game, and I am comming to believe it's better than Nantuko...

Anyone else got any tests with it?

ForlornEgoist

06-15-2011, 01:21 PM

@ Gui:

Arrogant Bloodlord to me runs into the problem of not being able to deal with creature such as 'Goyf (although this can be remedied by equipment/higher-than-average count of removal). While I've long since given up Shade as a viable creature because hes so mana hungry Shade at the very least can compete with 'Goyf when needed.

Decklist

Grinning Demon isn't a horrible creature necessarily but you need to look at with whom he's competing for the "big beater," slot: Tombstalker and Abyssal Persecutor. Both 'Stalker/Persecutor offer evasion which is extremely relevant not to mention they don't continously stack life loss (which if you make some of my suggested changes will become more relevant). If you like Demon as a preference I can make further suggestions but I would say if your lenient pick 1 of the other 2.

Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek>Duress. I prefer TS as it can disrupt any threat for a meager 2 life investment but in a more aggro creature-based meta (Zoo/Merfolk) 2 life can't be a lot so IoK can be a suitable replacement. Duress can't hit creatures which can be detrimental. Albeit the average MBA/C runs 8-10 kill spells but its important to capitalize your ability to deal with not only creatures but other threats.

Hypnotic Specter used to be one of our most feared plays (the first being Rit->Duress+Hymn) but he's lost much favor since his time. In the olden days we could afford to ride a win off the back of Shade/Specter/Negator but since that time new creatures ('Goyf/KotR/etc.) have entered thus making our previous win-cons invalid. Specter provides no clock and himself is unable to deal with superior creatures. Vampire Nighthawk recovers life loss and doubles as a kill spell. If you wish to run Specter he certainly works nicely in The Rack builds but otherwise I would suggest removing him.

Gatekeeper of Malakir seems like he should be an auto 4-of.

Lotus Petal is unecessary. This deck isn't aggro, its control. We're similar to Rock in that we want to take the game to mid-game (although we don't have quite so many color fixing issues). As such Petal becomes a dead draw.

Dark Ritual can make for some amazing early game plays but it may be something you consider dropping as the marginal utility on this card declines as the game progresses. If you're adamant about keeping it theres nothing wrong with such but I prefer to avoid bad topdecks when I'm playing Control with this deck.

Peat Bog should be removed. Period. You slow yourself down a turn to achieve a whole extra mana of acceleration. I would actually prefer you run Cabal Coffers because then you at least get consistent mana production that can open you up into the 6-mana slot providing old-school creatures like my personal favorite Laquatus's Champion).

Sensei's Divining Top should be added as a 3-4 of. Although Dark Confidant can be run in addition to Tombstalker, few people are as gosu as me and willing to run them together. With Persecutor its less of a hassel but since you're opting not to run Bob the SDT is necessary to maximize draws esp. since you're playing control and running Rits. Phyrexian Arena is an option but since you're Mono-Black I'm worried about not being able to Vindicate it.

Here are my suggested changes:

4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
8 Swamp

4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Tombstalker

4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smother / Go for the Throat
4 Snuff Out
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Umezawa's Jitte
Note that fetches help maximize Top as well as provide food for 'Stalker.

Its been ages since I played this deck so I'm not sure what would be best for a SB. I remember that when I was playing the deck I ran Extirpate and Dystopia in addition to Leyline and E.Plague. If you wanted to run Abyssal Persecutor which might be better as it provides you with Bob then I would suggested checking The Gate thread.

Forlorn Egoist

Clark Kant

06-15-2011, 01:25 PM

This creature base posted a few posts ago looked quite awesome...

4 Dark Ritual
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Abyssal Persecutor

That list was playing Nyxathid instead of Nighthawk, but I think that was just because that list was playing Rite of Consumption as a win condition, and a sac outlet for Persecutor along with Go for the Throat and Cabal Threapy.

The Big Ragu

06-23-2011, 10:04 PM

This is what I've been playing with. What surprised me so much is just how incredibly consistent the deck plays. It's very rare that I ever have to take mulligans. While it doesn't seem beefy enough to compete with top tier aggro decks, it does feel consistent and versatile to be able to handle any random jank that might come its way.

2 The Rack
2 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sarcomancy
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
21 Swamp

1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Extirpate
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Virtue's Ruin
2 Perish
2 Yixlid Jailer
4 Mindbreak Trap

boneclub24

06-23-2011, 10:08 PM

I would probably cut 2 of The Rack and 2 Vampire Nighthawk for +4 Dark Confidant. He's so good.

KobeBryan

06-23-2011, 10:14 PM

The Big Ragu

06-23-2011, 10:28 PM

I strongly disagree with the suggestion.

Dark Confidant is amazing, but the mana intensity doesn't quite feel right enough to support him. Added to the high concentration of spells that already cause me to lose life, his cons seem to outweigh the pros.

I'll test him a bit, but with serious doubt and trepidation.

The Rack needs to go. I love my mana curve just the way it is, and I'm looking to replace it with another one drop. Possibly Bloodchief Ascension.

KobeBryan

06-23-2011, 10:52 PM

boneclub24

06-24-2011, 12:10 AM

Not playing 4 dark confidant is the biggest mistake you are making. Its not like you are running tombstalkers. If you are worried about life loss, run jitte and vampire nighthawks

Yeah, Nighthawk > Hypnotic Specter is the way to go in a Bob deck. I did this in Eva Green too. Nighthawk also helps against opposing aggro.

GoldenCid

07-09-2011, 07:55 PM

New to the deck. One of the most rare thing i've read in the last decklist is the absence of Smallpox. Is this a matte rof other deck? or why is it out?

ForlornEgoist

07-10-2011, 01:39 AM

New to the deck. One of the most rare thing i've read in the last decklist is the absence of Smallpox. Is this a matte rof other deck? or why is it out?

Well, you could certainly justify Smallpox in the deck if that was more towards your play style but a consenus for the deck is that unless you have a meta prone to S&T/NO/SA/etc. then more targeted removal like Go for the Throat/Smother/Ghastly Demise/Snuff Out/etc. are typically better for us. This is especially true since Obliterator can effectively function for mass sac effects.

If you are interest particularly in Smallpox, consider looking at The Gate or Pox threads, both of which focus more heavily on on sac effects like Pox/Smallpox/Cabal Therapy/Innocent Blood/etc.

Forlorn Egoist

Greenpoe

07-10-2011, 10:36 AM

Smallpox has been run in Eva Green before, but it's a difficult card to support in any aggressive deck. I think you'd need 2-4 Bitterblossom for it and definitely some Wastelands.

GoldenCid

07-17-2011, 11:46 AM

Hey everybody! Here's my decklist, the first one for comments:

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [TE] Wasteland
9 [R] Swamp (1)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

// Creatures
3 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [10E] Hypnotic Specter
2 [EVE] Stillmoon Cavalier

// Spells
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (2)
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [M12] Smallpox

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [M10] Duress

Should i play Nantuko Shade or Vampire Nighthawk instead of stillmoon cavallier??

KobeBryan

07-17-2011, 01:31 PM

Greenpoe

07-17-2011, 06:42 PM

I would keep the Hypnotic Specters because you can focus on evasion by doing this:
-3 Gatekeeper
-2 Stillmoon Cavalier
+2 Bitteblossom
+3 Vampire Nighthawk

Nighthawk a similar role that Gatekeeper would, except Nighthawk doesn't get clogged down by an enemy 'Goyf or KoTR or Mother of Runes, etc.
That way, all your threats have flying (minus Bob), which is fantastic with Jitte, and I still like Hypnotic Specter. He pulls countermagic from your opponent, or forces them to use removal on it so you can drop something bigger (Stalker) or with vital utility (Bob).
Personally, I would cut Perish for Dystopia, cut Engineered Plague because 'folk has tons of Lords these days anyway, and trade out Innocent Blood for either Smother, Dismember, etc.

boneclub24

07-18-2011, 06:59 PM

How have the Obliterator lists been testing?

necrowil

07-18-2011, 09:58 PM

This is my new Obliterator Hatred deck. Have had some success with this deck. After trying all kinds of mana acceleration for getting Obliterator out early like Culling the Weak, Cabal Ritual, Lake of the Dead and the like, I finally decided the best card is Phyrexian Tower. Tower cannot be Countered with Misstep or Spell Snare and you can you it multiple times unlike the formentioned. Playing 4 of these in combination with Bloodghast allows me to consistently get out Obliterator by turn 3. It also provides much needed black mana for Hatred and the like. Mesmeric Fiend also is a nice trick with Phyrexian Tower as you can put the effect on the stack and remove a card from the game permanently. Nice to do with they use Stoneforge Mystic to go get Batterskull. Fiend is also nice to use when you are about to go off with Hatred. Can’t tell you how many times I have done just that. 28 creatures, you don’t mind sacrificing one to Tower especially if it is Bloodghast. Also, as written previously, I strongly advise Suicide to play with Cursed Scroll main deck for many reasons. It allows the deck to have late game play and more importantly it is a source of colorless damage to get rid of cards like Mother of Runes, Etched Champion, Grim Lavamancer and you can target Planeswalkers with it which I love. Jace does not stay on the board long vs me. The deck usually wins with Hatred or Obliterator or Lifelink winning the damage race. You usually need one or the other to win. Just thought I would pass this on for anyone wanting to play with Obliterator. I traded in the Zombies for Signal Pest and Vault Skirge because the evasion factor. Evasion proved far superior in this deck. Not to mention you can cast Hatred on Vault Skirge and get your life back if they have no answer for it. Pretty funny actually. Will post some tournament results when I get them.

Obliterator Hatred

Sideboard
4 Go For The Throat
4 Extirpate
3 Perish
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Spinning Darkness
1 Contagion

Main
13 Swamp
4 Phyrexian Tower
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cursed Scroll
3 Hatred
4 Vault Skirge
4 Signal Pest
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Bloodghast
4 Phyrexian Obliterator

Pretty straightforward really. I had tutors in here but realized I didn’t need them. Obliterator isn’t an autowin, but it sure helps when none of your creatures can really block. Also you want to see a decent opening hand. That’s it really.

Peace.

Necrowil

KobeBryan

07-18-2011, 10:14 PM

KobeBryan

07-18-2011, 10:14 PM

necrowil

07-18-2011, 11:09 PM

sure i do. only in situations where i don't draw a ritual or a phyrexian tower. it happens, but this is the issue with many aggressive decks. you don't want to play a lot of land for fear of drawing too much. you have to play wasteland pretty much and in my opinion, if you want 4 or 5 black mana early you should play phyrexian tower. sure there are games when i don't see either, but in my testing, playing phyrexian tower over a few more swamps is not a bad compromise. you have so many creatures so if you need to sacrifice one (in my case bloodghast or a signal pest) you can. this is black people. sometimes its a good thing to kill your own people. ;)

just giving you my findings after testing cards like

culling the weak (misstep is huge so this had to come out, probably most 2nd most effective though)
cabal ritual (slow and can be stopped by spell snare, not bad late game obviously, but suicide doesn't want a late game)
lake of the dead (a magnet for wasteland, in addition, the mana you gain early doesn't necessary pay off for the land you sacrifice to get it into play. how many swamps can you afford to sacrifice anyway? i can't think of many games i want to lose two swamps)
peat bog (actually not bad IF your opponent leaves it alone, but the whole coming into play tapped thing kind of screws you if they have a wasteland sitting on the table. you can't even play it)

really, those are your options for early BB mana beyond dark ritual. you don't want to play chrome mox as you are already at card disadvantage. phyrexian tower is actually a solid card with a lot of uses you may not expect like your opponent tries to take control of your creature and so on what i mentioned with mesmeric fiend. the fact that you can use it over and over again makes it really shine in my opinion. the above cards seem to have much more limited use.

a lot of you guys play expensive creatures in your deck like gatekeeper and nighthawk and persecutor. now that i have tested and like phyrexian tower, i would never run a deck with creatures that slow without them. the fact they are legendary is seldom an issue.

i do know this, just playing 4 dark ritual for obliterator is slow as hell. and if suicide is slow, well in my opinion, it ain't suicide. you can't afford to give your opponent any time at all.

also, look at it this way. every deck plays mana acceleration. all of them really. mox diamond, birds of paradise, noble hierarch, lotus petal and the list goes on. early mana makes for a strong deck. its that simple. and with black your choices are limited. try it out. i find its quite good. i like them a lot.

Greenpoe

07-19-2011, 12:21 AM

Mesmeric Fiend is terrible unless your meta has no removal. Just go for Hymn instead. It looks like you had to design the deck around Phyrexian Tower, because a lot of the creatures individually look sub-par. Personally I would rather run Soldevi Adnate or Leaden Myr than attract enemy Wastelands. Soldevi Adnate is a Phyrexian Tower in creature form, and you always just sacrifice itself, and it adds +2 mana like Ritual, while Phyrexian Tower only nets +1.

GoldenCid

07-22-2011, 12:16 PM

I don't claerly undestand why hatred is a solution...FoW to hatred or even path / sword to obliterator or any hatred creature and you loose!

necrowil

07-24-2011, 01:33 AM

After you have hit your opponent even once with Negator or Obliterator, they should be at significantly less life then you. If you have other creatures out and they are at say 10 or less life, just kill them. In all likelihood they will use Force of Will to stop you from playing Phyrexian Obliterator or Phyrexian Negator. If they did, well that's one less spell to stop Hatred. Sure its risky, but Suicide can be. Hatred is just a win condition. No need to build a deck around it.

Yeah those cards are much slower then Phyrexian Tower. Plus they have the added downside of being able to be killed. Not worth it in my opinion. By the way, I tested the above deck with more expensive cards and it still performed well. Even with Nighthawk and Specter and the like. I just think it’s a bit slow for my taste. But you can get those cards into play by sacrificing creatures quickly. Looking to speed the deck up as the environment now is very fast. Made some changes by adding Phyrexian Negator into the deck.

First of all, its my opinion that Phyrexian Negator is Suicide’s friend again. Simply look at the field. The top decks are certainly not Red Deck Wins or Zoo. It’s a sea of islands and green/white decks with a few decks which splash black. Negator really shines in the current format. When your opponent plays Jace, trust me, you don’t want that fool to have anytime at all. Especially if you run 4 Phyrexian Tower. If they Bolt him just sacrifice it. If you don’t have one you can sacrifice Sarcomancy and Bloodghast well enough as well.

Hatred

Sideboard
4 Chains of Mephistopheles (not sure)
4 Curses Scroll
3 Perish
2 Forsaken Wastes (not sure)
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

Main
13 Swamp
4 Phyrexian Tower
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Soul Spike
3 Hatred
4 Sarcomancy
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Bloodghast
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Phyrexian Obliterator

What ends up happening is Negator starts the fight and Obliterator finishes. Also, Soul Spike is an amazing finisher. And also, if you really need to kill something on the board’s its ok for that too. Ideally, though its for finishing off your opponent unexpectedly. I took out the graveyard hate as I realized the deck seems fine without. Sure if they Entomb, Iona and reanimate it before you get anything in play it’s a problem, but you do have a fighting chance with shadow creatures and direct damage of Soul Spike in response.

The reason I don’t run discard in the deck is Leyline. Decks like Show and Tell board in Leyline and make it useless, if they draw it.

rupus

07-24-2011, 07:02 AM

sporenfrosch1411

07-24-2011, 08:26 AM

You have almost no removal and no discard.
Every type of Combo will just go off without any hesitation.
Every kind of Maverick Deck will be bigger than your creatures plus having a lot of removal and counterbackup and since many of your creatures have shadow, he will just walk right into your face.
Zoo is faster than you and can still burn of your shadow stuff. (Fast Obliterator will eat Path)
Merfolk will outplay you by countering and swarming.
Goblins, let's just not talk about it...
Dredge can be faster than you, The Gate is more consistent than you...
Also never forget that after match 1, every U.dec will go all in to counter your Hatred on which u spent 19 life. Your only chance of winning that i see in this list is heavily dependant on Dark Ritual, might it be an unhandled Obliterator or a Hatred. If you can't power that out really early, you just won't win versus most Legacy decks.

For starters, add a decent removal and Discard package. Then the list might be worthwhile to discuss.

boneclub24

09-09-2011, 06:46 PM

What do you guys think about Diregraf Ghoul?

lyracian

09-10-2011, 12:47 AM

What do you guys think about Diregraf Ghoul?It is a great one drop, if you need more creatures.

NyxathidHorror

09-11-2011, 12:52 AM

I've been testing MBC on cockatrice for a few days now, and I have to say that it's one of my favorite decks now. It also seems to be a bit more popular than led to believe; I played against 3-4 other people today that were testing very similar builds to mine.

The Big Ragu

09-25-2011, 04:41 PM

How has the new Liliana been testing?

boneclub24

09-25-2011, 07:31 PM

How has the new Liliana been testing?

She doesn't seem very Suicide Black-ey... more MBC than Aggro...

Richard Cheese

09-26-2011, 12:53 PM

Diregraf Ghoul + Bump in the Night = Black sligh is finally here!

boneclub24

09-26-2011, 07:12 PM

Diregraf Ghoul + Bump in the Night = Black sligh is finally here!

Isn't that what Suiblack has been since Urza? lol

Richard Cheese

09-26-2011, 07:20 PM

Nah dude, we got BURN now! Imma run 4x Bump and 4x SiB for hell of reach.

boneclub24

09-27-2011, 12:19 AM

Nah dude, we got BURN now! Imma run 4x Bump and 4x SiB for hell of reach.

IDK man, Bitterblossom just seems so much better if you need reach. It's every creature you will ever need for the rest of the game.

Qweerios

09-27-2011, 01:08 AM

Anybody else enjoys Bad Moon in monoblack sui? With Bitterblossom and an overabundance of 1-drops, the enchantment is quite potent. Here is my Bad Moon version:

Creatures (20)
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Carnophage
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

Spells (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Geth's Verdict

Enchantments (12)
4 Sarcomancy
4 Bitterblossom
4 Bad Moon

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
16 Swamp

It is a very simple and straightforward list. The strength of Sui lies in its 1 drops and how much you can regurgitate with a Dark Ritual. I couldnt ask for better ways to spend life than Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom.

The Big Ragu

09-27-2011, 01:50 PM

I'd recommend throwing in a few Nighthawks, seeing as how your build results in a lot of life being lost.

LazyEyes

09-29-2011, 01:48 AM

I just got back into Magic and decided to update my Suicide Black Deck. Any advice for this deck?

Lands-20

1x Strip Mine
16x Swamps
3x Wasteland

Creatures-16

4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Phyrexian Obliterator
4x Vampire Nighthawk

Spells-24

4x Dark Rituals
1x Demonic Tutor
4x Go for the Throat
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Mind Twist
4x Sinkhole
4x Thoughtseize
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Yawgmoth’s Will

Side Board-15

4x Extirpate
3x Null Rod
2x Perish
2x Planar Void
4x Powder Keg

conboy31

09-29-2011, 02:02 AM

Your decklist is for vintage (t1), this website is largely legacy (1.5).

check out the restricted list:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=judge/resources/sfrlegacy

boneclub24

09-29-2011, 09:49 AM

Yeah, once that is remedied it looks fine. Maybe try using a 1 drop in there, too though.

Oiolosse

09-29-2011, 02:23 PM

I have never played Suicide Black in legacy per se but I have casually and I know the archetype and I have always found jitte to be ultra handy.

LazyEyes

10-01-2011, 06:15 PM

Thanks for the advice. What should I run instead of 2x tutors, will and mind twist? Just Jitte?

The Big Ragu

10-01-2011, 06:17 PM

The new Diregraf Ghoul is nice.

boneclub24

10-06-2011, 01:21 AM

The new Diregraf Ghoul is nice.

We've had some discussion about it. Basically, it can replace Carnophage/Lacerator, but most people don't even use those anymore.

necrowil

10-10-2011, 07:46 PM

Suicide is really Aggro Control now in my opinion. I've tested very aggressive versions of this deck as you will see from my posts and I think because of the current format, it is lacking right now.

Of the recent cards to be released I think the following are worthy of further study.

Liliana of the Veil is definitely worth playing two of these or more after sideboard.

Diregraf Ghoul if you insist on very aggressive builds.

Altar's Reap I think has the potential to replace things like Night's Whisper as you can sacrifice things like Bloodghast and Faeries from Bitterblossom to it.

In my opinion Obliterator is too slow in the current format.

With Mental Misstep gone, 1cc spells can become strong again. Aggro control black is now tier 2. And definitely cause for further study. The version of the deck I run now is

main
13 swamp
4 phyrexian tower
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 hatred
2 umezawa's jitte
2 liliana of the veil
4 bitterblossom
4 bloodghast
4 hypnotic specter
4 vampire nighthawk
4 gatekeeper of malakir

The deck seems to perform well against the field with a few exceptions. The sideboard is still under construction.

Personally, I am not a fan of the 4 Thoughtseize and may change it to something like Duress as I want to be able to take Force of Will. And the deck seems to want one more swamp. The issue seems to be the fact that Bloodghast and Bitterblossom seem to keep a great deal of aggro on your opponent. You have to remember to hold your lands.

And yeah, I still play Hatred if I can which is why I run 4 Phyrexian Tower. Specter fairly often creates a soft lock and why not kill them if this happens with Hatred? Your opening hand is very important. Generally you want 2 black sources.

Liliana also can create an early lock after a 1st turn ritual. There are just not a lot of answers to planeswalkers out there.

Anyway, still testing so this is by no means final. The sideboard needs a lot of work.

Peace.

Necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

boneclub24

10-11-2011, 04:04 PM

I'm still just not seeing the Hatred build working. A single counterspell and you are done. Yeah, we're in black (so we can discard them), but it's never a sure thing unless they have no hand. But at that point we might as well just go for the beats and leave cards like Phyrexian Tower by the wayside.

necrowil

10-12-2011, 10:30 AM

its a style point really. simply another way to win fast. if you would rather rely on your ability to beat an opponent down quickly before they draw something to recover, by all means. between all the discard your run and the specters it is not likely your opponent has much of a hand left. nevertheless, i cut the number of hatred to just 1 so its not really a point of discussion. it only works consistently if you get an unanswered specter. then you can kill them. otherwise, yeah its risky.

there is another reason to play tower you may not be aware of. you can block with faerie tokens and then sacrifice them to the tower before damage allowing equipment and lifelink creatures to become less effective. lifelink and equipment are often difficult for suicide to deal with

sideboard
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Extirpate
3 Perish
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Withering Wisps

main
10 Snow-covered Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Phyrexian Tower
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Bitterblossom
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Hatred
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hypnotic Specter

Liliana is a really strong card bring in against most decks. You may want to play more. But this is what I'm running now and it seems fairly strong in the current environment.

Peace.

Necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

necrowil

10-14-2011, 01:17 AM

Phylactery Lich

As per a previous discussion regarding Phylactery Lich. This deck I put together is quite a beating. You barely need black mana to play it.

Phylactery Lich
13 swamp
4 phyrexian tower
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 cursed scroll
4 bitterblossom
3 umezawa’s jitte
4 signal pest
4 vault skirge
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 phylactery lich

The result is 15 artifacts which you can turn in phylacteries for your lich. Not to mention Signal Pest combined with Bitterblossom and Jitte is SOME kind of good. The deck plays similar to Affinity without all that drawback from being all artifacts.

Try it out. I added the shadow guys because of evasion but you could play zombies or something in their place, but pest combined with the shadow guys is good too. Definitely keeps your opponent on the ropes as they will not know quite to do with your deck.

Peace.

Necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

Cthuloo

02-13-2012, 10:12 AM

So, I went to a 44 men tourney yesterday with a totally untuned and untested build. I put the deck together last Monday, played a couple of games, and decided I was going to
have fun playing it. This is the pile I was brave enough to pilot:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Diabolic edict
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Abyssal Persecutor
3 Tombstalker
2 Phyrexian Oblitetator
2 Graveborn Muse
2 Priest of Gix

4 Wasteland
1 Lake of the dead
1 Phyrexian Tower
15 Swamp

Sideboard
3 Extirpate
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Perish
1 Darkblast
1 Dystopia
1 Massacre
2 Nether Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Umexawa's Jitte

Yes, it's 61 cards, but this is far from being it's major defect :wink: I didn't play more Obliterators because I only owned two, and the two Muses were a sort of a compromise
between another beater and a card draw engine (it didn't matter because I never saw one of them in all the matches). The Priests were a concession because I figured I would need
some black mana fixing to cast the gatekeepers and the obliterators. So, the decklist was very rough, I had close to zero experience with the deck and the sideboard was almost
randomly thrown together the evening before the event. You can guess my performance wasn't properly exciting, but I had a lot of fun and was sometimes positively surprised from
the deck. Brief report follows.

Round 1 vs Spiral Tide
g1
He wins the roll, I rip his hand apart but fail to draw a relevant threat. He has a handful of turns to recover while I'm beating him with a gatekeeper and manages to go off
with some effort the turn after I drop a persecutor.
g2
Basically more of the same, with some land denial, too. I manage to extirpate a turnabout, but draw only a priest of gix for a beater. He manages to recover and goes off easily
0-1
Round 2 vs U/R Delver
g1 and g2 are pretty similar, he drops an early threat and burns me, I then stabilize at 6-8 lives, remove his threats, and drop an enormous monster.
1-1
Round 3 vs Reanimator
Guess what? Iona is still rather good vs mono-colored decks. In both games I hit him with multiple discard, but he had plenty of redundancy and manages to reanimate Iona on turn
3 and 4 in the two games.
1-2
Round 4 vs Zoo
g1
I hit him with multiple sinkholes and wastelands. In the meantime he is beating me with a Goblin guide. I drop an Obliterator that shields me from any attack, and profit from
his screw to stabilize at one life, remove the guide and proceed to win.
g2
This game is a blowout. I had to mulligan to 5, and he has a very aggressive start of Guide into Nacatl plus Loam Lion. I offer a bit of resistance, but have quickly to
capitulate.
g3
Very similar to g1, we arrive at a point were he has no cards in hand, a guide and a lavamancer on the table, while I have just slammed down a Persecutor and am holing an edict
and an obliterator, but I'm at low life. Unfortunately he rips a Path to exile like a champ and manages to deal enough damage to burn me off a few turns later.
1-3
Round 4 vs Reanimator
g1
Turn one ritual into duress + tourach, turn two sinkhole, turn three persecutor via lake of the dead. This is why I wanted to play the deck!
g2
I storm him with land denial slowing him down, and start to hit him with an obliterator. He manages to find enough lands to cast animate dead on a Jin and then plays show and
tell for an Inkwell Leviatan. Since he's at 5, I proceed to attack him, nuclearizing his board of exactly 5 permanents. At this point, I later discovered, he doesn't have any
black mana producing land in the deck anymore, so I just have to wait until I topdeck another big mean monster to close the game.

2-3 (Games 5-6)

Being out of contention, barring some fulminating Ebola pandemy killing 3/4 of the participants, I dropped. Random notes:

I always sided in the 2 Nether Voids, but never managed to cast them. Major disappointment of the day!
I really disliked the Tombstalkers, the obliterators, instead, were really devastating.
The Priests of Gix were totally unnecessary
I really need some sort of manipulation or card advantage. Probably the muses aren't good enough, but I really don't know since I never even got to see one of them.
The sideboard was particularly bad, half of it was never used.
Last, but not least: the deck is a blast to play. The look on the face of your opponent when you drop fatty after fatty on the table is priceless. I definitely plan to play it again in the future.

Any suggestion, question or comment is more than welcomed!

necrowil

02-13-2012, 06:53 PM

always good to see tournament results. you might want to check out “The Gate” thread. although it seems most have abandoned Suicide or Gate as that viable. I think some Gate decks may be considered Tier 2. but Suicide has been in hiatus for a while.

interesting on that thread is people came to the conclusion Abyssal Persecutor is not worth it and now there is much discussion about its replacement Phyrexian Obliterator. my opinion, both are two expensive in a format where decks can go off on turn one before you can even cast Duress. Even Gatekeeper is slow for what it does. No one is really concerned with a 2/2 on the board at all.

Your reports read that you often stabilized at a low number and then played a large creature to come back and win. My opinion, that’s not a Suicide deck.

Last time I recall Suicide really being hot since back in ’07 when Bill Stark piloted this deck to the top 8 in a combo hulk environment. I think that it could be hot again and Unmask may be justified if the format continues at its current speed. Stark’s deck is a good starting point in my opinion of what a Suicide deck should look like. Small creatures backed up by disruptive elements.

And yes, Umezawa’s Jitte in my opinion is a must play card in Suicide for the simple reason if you don’t play it, you had better get used to losing to it. Liliana of the Veil is another card that Suicide I think should find room for if not just in the sideboard.

Bill Stark
GP Columbus 07 Top 8

Main Deck

60 cards

16 Swamp
4 Wasteland
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20 lands

4 Carnophage
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Order of the Ebon Hand
4 Stromgald Crusader
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16 creatures (20 if you count Sarcomancy)

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sarcomancy
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Unmask
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
24 other spells

Sideboard
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serum Powder
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15 sideboard cards

The fact that Stark chose to run Serum Powder in the sideboard should tell you something about how combo oriented the format was and how important it was for the deck to disrupt your opponents hand so they could not go off. I don’t know if the current format is as fast as when Hulk was dominant but its damn close. Most aggressive are running small, fast, efficient creatures. Suicide has to mirror that. Just my opinion.

Necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

Cthuloo

02-14-2012, 06:27 AM

Thank you for the feedback, there are many interesting points to discuss. A necessary premise is that in building the deck I was not aiming to a particular archetype, what I ended up with looked like sui black, but it's not a traditional list by any means.

always good to see tournament results. you might want to check out “The Gate” thread. although it seems most have abandoned Suicide or Gate as that viable. I think some Gate decks may be considered Tier 2. but Suicide has been in hiatus for a while.

interesting on that thread is people came to the conclusion Abyssal Persecutor is not worth it and now there is much discussion about its replacement Phyrexian Obliterator. my opinion, both are two expensive in a format where decks can go off on turn one before you can even cast Duress. Even Gatekeeper is slow for what it does. No one is really concerned with a 2/2 on the board at all.

If I recall correctly, the gate doesn't play Dark Ritual. With rituals (and Lake of the Dead, that sometimes just lets you do crazy stuff) you can usually drop them fast enough. I'm not quite sure about gatekeeper, but it was a nice compromise between the need of extra removal and more cabal therapy/phyrexian tower fodder. I've not always been disappointed by the 2/2 body, since it can still trade with most critters (notably snapcaster and goblin guide).

Your reports read that you often stabilized at a low number and then played a large creature to come back and win. My opinion, that’s not a Suicide deck.

My report could have been misleading, since sometimes I dropped an earlier threat that got removed, but you're right in saying that this wasn't the typical Suicide deck, and sometimes does indeed play the control role versus very aggressive decks.

Stark’s deck is a good starting point in my opinion of what a Suicide deck should look like. Small creatures backed up by disruptive elements.
Although Carnophage is not as hot as it used to be, I still want to try an hyper-aggressive build with 16 two-power zombies. I will work for sure on the archetype for some time, because I kind of rediscovered of fun is to play it. ;)

lyracian

02-14-2012, 07:51 AM

Being out of contention, barring some fulminating Ebola pandemy killing 3/4 of the participants, I dropped. Random notes:

I always sided in the 2 Nether Voids, but never managed to cast them. Major disappointment of the day!
I really disliked the Tombstalkers, the obliterators, instead, were really devastating.
The Priests of Gix were totally unnecessary
I really need some sort of manipulation or card advantage. Probably the muses aren't good enough, but I really don't know since I never even got to see one of them.
The sideboard was particularly bad, half of it was never used.
Last, but not least: the deck is a blast to play. The look on the face of your opponent when you drop fatty after fatty on the table is priceless. I definitely plan to play it again in the future.

Any suggestion, question or comment is more than welcomed!
Glad you had fun; I love Suicide Black as well.

As Necrowil said you could probably do with Umezawa’s Jitte & Liliana of the Veil.

Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant are also very good card, but then the deck is looking very much like "The Gate" (which is just a Suicide Variant anyway).

Perhaps you should drop a few of the big cretures in your deck for some extra kill cards (or Lilly) so you can more consistantly clear the field?

necrowil

02-15-2012, 07:13 PM

Suicide got a few new toys to play with. As for the comment you made about Dark Ritual. I really don’t understand the debate really. Nearly every deck runs some type of mana acceleration so say its card disadvantage is just stupid in my opinion. Isn’t have extra mana early a good thing? And if you draw it late and have no use, who care really. But I’ll leave that one for the people with Islands in their deck. In addition to Dark Ritual I would go further to say every black deck needs to have a few Phyrexian Tower for additional mana acceleration and other things.

Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant are great cards obviously. But both are looking at the long game. Dark Confidant (card advantage) and Bitterblossom (board advantage) both at the expense of life. Worth noting again are both have only 1 toughness which makes them vulnerable in my opinion. And they are slow as you don’t always want to charge in with Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom takes 3 turns before you can even attack in that you play it one turn, get a creature next turn and then on the 3rd you can attack with a 1/1 guy flying. There are reasons why this may be good but it is a very situational card. Its not something you can really play when you are losing. But on to the new cards.

Diregraf Ghoul
Gravecrawler
Liliana of the Veil
Geralf’s Messenger

On the first two, they are solid replacements or in addition to for zombies like Carnophage and Sarcomancy. Dirgeraf is clearly a superior drawback then Carnophage. Gravecrawler’s drawback of not being able to block is worth mentioning. Also it only has one toughness making it vulnerable if your opponent runs Umezawa’s Jitte, Engineered Plage or Darkblast. Other then that it a beating. It keeps coming back which is what you want in Suicide. I lost to a guy running those, Bloodghasts and Messengers. All of them are quite a beating.

Liliana of the Veil, while not beat down persay does multiple things Suicide needs to do all in one card. The -6 function is for the most part irrelevant. If you can kill at will and discard at will, that will destroy a lot of decks in the format. Similar to Umezawa’s Jitte, the fact is you either play them or lose to it as they hard to get rid of. Often Dark Ritual, Liliana is just game. As is Jitte. Plain and simple so watch out.

Last and definitely not least, Geralf’s Messenger is by far the best beat down creature black has gotten for a long time. Its expensive yeah, but you can play him with Dark Ritual which in my opinion makes him far superior to Obliterator. There are many reasons why this is a must play 3-4 of in Suicide Black. It does many things Suicide needs to do. First, when it comes into play it deals 2 life. This becomes important if your opponent has some type of lock on the board. If you run Cabal Therapy and Phyrexian Tower it can deal another 2 life. This card is the anti-Kitchen Finks. This becomes even more important as there are few things black has that deal damage or life for that matter directly to the opponent. Its something they will have to worry about.

Next, it swings for 3 damage which many 3 casting cost black creature do not do. This becomes a significant tempo swing when the thing is automatically dealing 4 life off the bat. I’m sure every Suicide player can recall many games where some fool with Islands in his deck stabilized at some low life number and came back to win. Swinging for 3 is dramatically different then a beating from a 2/2. If you have another zombie out there you are hitting for 5 a turn. That’s a lot different then hitting for 4.

Last it is basically immune to Diabolic Edict and sacrifice effects like Gatekeeper of Malakir or Liliana of the Veil. This is very important in the current format as it can live through the effect and swing on Liliana for 4. It lives through destroy effects. How good is that?

That’s a lot all in one card. I recommend playing 4 and some ways to sacrifice it like Cabal Therapy or/and Phyrexian Tower. It has lifted my decks win ratio dramatically.

Just food for thought.

Peace.

Necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

orcanmail

02-16-2012, 07:05 AM

Just picked up suicide black as my meta is combo and control and i like discard and land destruction. Is Nevs Disc any good for the sideboard as the final slot after GY hate, pithing needles and perish.
I use Sinkholes & wastelands and hyppies in addition to hymns and thoughtseize, plus jittes, diabolic edicts, shades, crusaders, diregraf ghouls, and a negator, with 17 basic swamps.
So is the disc too slow and better off with dystopia?
Also is vendetta any good for removing creatures?

Cthuloo

02-16-2012, 09:20 AM

As for the comment you made about Dark Ritual. I really don’t understand the debate really. Nearly every deck runs some type of mana acceleration so say its card disadvantage is just stupid in my opinion. Isn’t have extra mana early a good thing? And if you draw it late and have no use, who care really. But I’ll leave that one for the people with Islands in their deck. In addition to Dark Ritual I would go further to say every black deck needs to have a few Phyrexian Tower for additional mana acceleration and other things.

If this is directed to my comment, I possibly wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean that I want to drop Dark Ritual, on the contrary, I wanted to note how playing Dark Ritual makes Obliterator a more reasonable choice in Sui Black than it is in The Gate. As for the Phyrexian Tower: I have to say that I was more impressed by Lake of the Dead, but you're more experienced with the deck and I'm going to trust you. What I agree with is that some extra acceleration (beside Dark Ritual) is more than welcomed.

Liliana of the Veil, while not beat down persay does multiple things Suicide needs to do all in one card. The -6 function is for the most part irrelevant. If you can kill at will and discard at will, that will destroy a lot of decks in the format. Similar to Umezawa’s Jitte, the fact is you either play them or lose to it as they hard to get rid of. Often Dark Ritual, Liliana is just game. As is Jitte. Plain and simple so watch out.

I'm not quoting the rest of your evaluation of the new cards, but I basically agree with it. Geralf’s Messenger in particular looks interesting to test.
On the contrary, I have tested Liliana a bit in this archetype and found her a bit underwhelming. In particular, the +1 is not always advantageous, since this is a tempo deck and every card in your hand is very precious. I was honestly disappointed with her, and end up cutting the two copies I had in the maindeck.

necrowil

02-18-2012, 07:52 PM

This February some Pox decks have been doing well. While this is a thread for Suicide, I think its always important to look at any black deck to see what they find necessary to run. This is important as it may benefit another black deck like Suicide or Gate which are not doing well or have not placed in anything I have seen of late. The first list is from 2/5 at Starcitygames

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43739

4 Liliana of the Veil is noteworthy. The next lists are from Magic-league.com A lot of pros test here. They also have tournaments, a rating system and online judges. There are a lot of good players there. And generally they use Magic Workstation which is a free download.

http://www.magic-league.com/deck/75913/legacy_t15.html#CounterTop%20Delver43997

There were two Pox deck in top 4. They decided to do away with cards like The Abyss and Nether Void though one ran 1 Void. Also they cut down on the number of Liliana. But I want take a look at the mana.

All decks found it critical to play

4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

I’m stealing this idea. This is important to Suicide players and addresses someone else’s question about Lake of the Dead which has no place in a Suicide deck in my opinion. I think Suicide needs to mirror this mana base for the most part. In testing it allows you to drop Geralf’s Messenger and probably Phyrexian Obliterator a lot more quickly. I used to not like this card as my opponent would play it and it would actually help me kill them. It can help your opponent at times so watch for that, but other then that speeding you up is always a good thing. Having lots of black mana is key for us or any black deck for that matter. Try them out. You won’t be disappointed. I run 3 Phyrexian Tower as well for the Messengers.

Peace.

Necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

orcanmail

02-19-2012, 08:31 AM

Is skeletal scrying any good in mono black for card draw in legacy? instant one black and x, draw x cards, lose x life and x cards in GY.
Would a card engine help this deck or is mono black hand/land destruction all about the start and disruption backed up by creatures? eg do we need a mid game engine?

necrowil

02-23-2012, 03:30 AM

Skeletal Scrying is one of the few card drawing engines black has now. But it’s a little expensive for what Suicide decks are trying to do. Some run them though. If I were to run it, I might play 2. It does give card advantage but it’s a more mid-late game kind of card and it can be countered. When you compare it to the other 1cc blue card drawing engines there is no comparison. Ponder, Brainstorm, Preordain and the like. Black doesn’t have much for hand sculpting cards like that. Not saying its bad, its obviously useful. Just not sure how much you want to commit a deck like this to it. I tested it and usually I was using it for 1 or 2. You are playing threats each turn so how much mana are you going to have free for that?

necrowil

02-24-2012, 05:25 PM

I was chatting with one of the Pox players online and I asked him why the new Pox decks don't run Bitterblossom. It seems like an obvious choice for Pox considering the few creatures they run. He said its too much life loss. That says a lot. If one of the top decks is saying 1 life a turn is too much, what does that say about cards like Dark Confidant? I know ANT runs them sometimes but their spells are often 1 or 0 casting cost.

Further testing of Geralf's Messenger makes him MVP for Suicide Black. The games where I resolved Messenger seem to have dramatically increased my win percentage. People are seeing the card now as a MUST counter.

If he's that important, I have thought of adding Unholy Grotto to the deck. Messenger being a zombie you could get him back for 1 black. So far there is no room. And 4 Messenger seem to be enough. Just food for thought.

ReinVos

02-24-2012, 06:06 PM

The lack of Bitterblossom in Pox also has something to do with the fact that you're killing off your own creatures with 8 spells at minimum. Usually it takes 3 turns before you're going to do more damage to your opponent than BB is dealing to you. If you Smallpox with a faerie in play you set yourself back a turn and lose 2 life. That's why Confidant is also no good in Pox. It would be great in suicide decks though, I imagine.

necrowil

03-01-2012, 03:40 AM

Missed the Legacy trial on magic-league.com. Arrived too late to enter. Pox ended up taking 1st place. The deck is very difficult to play against as they disrupt a lot then play Liliana which is next to impossible to deal with. 4 Liliana seems to be the number to play. You can see the results posted here.

http://www.magic-league.com/deck/76119/legacy_t15.html#Pox163566

What is interesting to me is the sideboard. Its seems mostly geared vs ANT and Dredge which are top decks to beat. Not sure ANT is anymore still its interesting. They even ran the white Leyline even though they have no way to cast it. I’m guessing the Dystopia is for getting rid of other people’s Leyline. :)

orcanmail

04-16-2012, 01:51 PM

OK I usually play Goblins, but for variety I have dusted down my black cards, and added a few after reading this entire thread and tomorrow night I'll be taking Sui Black to my club for it's first surprise outing. So here's my list, inspired by my love of Sinkhole and Hypnotic Specter ( Old School )

MD
Snuff Out x4 ( Tempo )
Dark Ritual x4
Duress x 4 ( don't own Thoughtseize but not sure if I prefer it anyway )
Diregraf Ghoul x 4 ( Mana Curve )
Diabolic Edict x3 ( Large untargetable creatures )
Hymn to Tourach x 4
Sinkhole x4 ( An old favourite )
Nantuko Shade x 3
Stromgald Crusader x 3 ( evasion, pro from stp jitte carrier )
Hypnotic Specter x4 ( Oh how I love my hyppies! )
Umezawa's Jitte x 3 ( Game winner without Negator MD )

Wasteland x 4
Swamp x16

SB
Leyline of the Void x 4 ( Seems necessary as discard fills their GY )
Pithing Needle x 4 ( considering Chalice of the Void x 4 for storm combo and burn instead, not sure here )
Phyrexian Negator x 3 ( Risky main deck, but lurking with intent in SB )
Dystopia x 4 ( Goyfs etc and pesky white enchantments )

So I guess pretty straight forward old school sinkhole / hyppie route. I love mana / card screwing opponents, so much fun!

Well tell me what you all think, and I'll tell you how my tourney goes tomorrow night!

Curby

04-16-2012, 02:40 PM

Leyline's a good sideboard option, but not for the reasons you indicate. If discard effects were the reason to run Leyline, then Leyline should be in the maindeck along with your discard. No, Leyline's good to disrupt yard-based strategies like Reanimator, Dredge, etc.

With the existence of The Gate, I find it hard to take more traditional black aggro decks seriously. The Gate has a ton of internal synergies and mini-combos that make it great. If you haven't seen it, take a look. If you still prefer this style after looking at The Gate, then have at it! =)

orcanmail

04-17-2012, 06:30 PM

OK so I played a small tourney.
Got a bye round 1 which sucks,

round 2 i mana screwed maverick in game 1 and bashed him with a shade, and in game 2 he went down to dystopia from the board. 2-0 win

round 3 i played canadian thresh. Game 1 he got a goyf quickly to 4/5 and my snuff out wasn't quite able to save me.

Game 2 i chalice of the voided him set at 1 which screwed him and leyline of the voided him which screwed his threshold. I managed to bash him with stromgald cabal with a jitte on it eventually.

Game 3 He mulliganed to 5 and i hymed him to 3 but missed his land! I never saw any hate and the game stabilised and we were top decking. I drew 2 lands and he drew 2 Goyfs!! Game ended quickly. 2-1 loss

So, what did i learn apart from it was fun to play.

1. Negator definately is too risky for main board
2. Chalice of the Void is an excellent SB card and I'm happy I ran with it over Pithing Needle.
3. Snuff Out is great for tempo with sinkholes/hymns
4. evasion and pro from white on stromgalds is great for carrying jittes
5. shades are worth playing
6. jittes were excellent
7. Dystopia is so good in the SB for mono black
8. edicts were good as only need 1 black mana, but need snuff outs with them.
9. diregrafs just there for mana curve and to up creature count
10. i still love hyppies but i'd rather dark ritual into a hymn given the choice.

All in all a viable deck and fun to play, I would play it again.

orcanmail

04-26-2012, 01:57 PM

miccel

04-30-2012, 07:51 PM

what do you think about my list?

4dark ritual
4thoughtseize
4hymn to tourach
4sinkhole
4bloodghast
4nantuko shade
4phyrexian negator
4tombstalker
3snuff out
2liliana of the veil
2reanimate
4polluted delta
4bloodstained mire
4wasteland
9swamp

side
3piting needle
2perish
2jitte
4gatekeeper of malakir
4extirpate/leyline

my last tourney was 2years ago...need help! i'm just come back to play mtg!

KobeBryan

04-30-2012, 08:00 PM

The Big Ragu

04-30-2012, 08:59 PM

The 2 reanimates just seem a bit random. Try Unearth instead. I think it's a very underrated card in Legacy.

Liliana of the Veil isn't anything remarkable in this deck. There are many better spells that have a cmc of 3; Hypnotic Specter, Phyrexian Arena, Vampire Nighthawk, Gatekeeper of Malakir (well, I GUESS you could say its cmc is 3).

Phyrexian Negator has aged terribly. Avoid that card entirely.

miccel

04-30-2012, 09:42 PM

-4negator +4gatekeeper maindeck

-2lilly and reanimate +1snuff out +3piting needle? (jace sensei vial equip)
i love hippy but he's not too slow now?
i cut hippy for bloodghast for any recursion after eventually wrath or pernicius.,.so the top deck land
is not too bad...
have any sense my choice for you or i'm crazy?:smile:

Tombstalker

04-30-2012, 10:16 PM

4dark ritual
4thoughtseize
4hymn to tourach
4sinkhole
4bloodghast
4nantuko shade
4phyrexian negator
4tombstalker
3snuff out
2liliana of the veil
2reanimate
4polluted delta
4bloodstained mire
4wasteland
9swamp

Man that is truly suicidal with thoughtseize, reanimate, snuff out and fetchlands especially with the amount of burn in the format right now. I would actually suggest a hybrid of sui-black and The Gate. I have deck built like that, basically sui-blacks best aspects + abyssal persecutors, tombstalkers, gatekeepers, nighthawks, jittes, bitterblossoms, SDT etc. It can randomly wreck people with ritually fueled plays but packs the card advantage of the gate. Fucking fun deck and theres still nothing as satisfying as taking their answer t1 then ritualling a daemon t2 ftw.

miccel

05-01-2012, 09:11 AM

yeah that's right...I take a lot of damages with this (old but i think beautiful :tongue:) build...i've tryed obliterators over negators but often i've only 3 lands on the field and watch my fatty in my hand:frown:
well negator against red based is very very very very very bad i known so i decide to cut him because my meta(nord italy) is full of canadian thresh, maverik, uw stoneforge and randomly ant, reanimator,affinity and team america( last version without stalker and with jace and lilly)...what do you think about these MU? side is under construction too...
sorry if my english is not percfect but i've leaves school some years ago :wink:

boneclub24

05-01-2012, 03:08 PM

I'm wondering why the choice of Diabolic Edict > Geth's Verdict? Is it just because of Wasteland?

orcanmail

05-03-2012, 01:49 PM

2 questions,

firstly is Lake of the Dead worth playing for pumping out wins?

secondly is drain life worth playing as it gives extra reach but is a little slow?

and as for a comment, why oh why is necropotence banned in legacy, it makes my heart bleed!

Hardcore

05-03-2012, 07:51 PM

@miccel, If you get stuck on three land then you run too few.
Remember, Wasteland (and mishra's factories) do not count as lands; they take up SPELL slots. Go up to like 20-22 swamps. Note that they don't get stifled.

KobeBryan

05-03-2012, 08:26 PM

If you are going to play black suicide, you might as well play eva green.

You get to abuse tarmogoyf, scavenging ooze, and you get excellent board wipes in pernicious deeds and maelstrom pulse.

dameus

05-03-2012, 10:05 PM

I'd like to reinforce some of the latest posts. Phyrexian Negator just isn't playable. Neither is Lake of the Dead, BTW, as long as there's wasteland. Reanimate seems misplaced. Consider Inquisition of Kozilek over Thoughtseize (FoW doesn't ruin your day like it does for combo). And I'm 100% with AoS - a green splash goes a long way! Eva Green > Sui Black.

necrowil

05-03-2012, 10:45 PM

well just to echo what other people have been saying. suicide black does not currently have the tools to be viable at the moment. the format is defined by cards like

Delver of Secrets
Tarmogoyf
Stoneforge Mystic
Batterskull

and the like. what does black have to deal with a 3/2 flyer for one? not a whole lot. sure you can play removal. honestly, i think any type of edict card is too slow. you want free removal like snuff out and contagion but then you are going one for one and you still have to draw the removal AND you have to cast it have it not countered.

its understandable that you would want to play Negator over Obliterator, but coming from someone who has thoroughly tested Negator, it is subpar right now. You could main deck it but it presents problems with cards like Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Mother of Runes, burn, etc. I would recommend playing City of Traitors to get it out on Turn 2 consistently if not turn 1.

in terms of discard, generally Hymn is considered a good card, but even Hymn is a bit slow in the format right now. unmask may be the way to go but it is card disadvantage. it may be worth it. but i say this not as a recommendation but to illustrate suicide black has an uphill battle in the current format. a BBBB 5/5 trampler is not reliable enough.

the most dominant black deck now, Pox runs an arsenal of disruption, basically to make up for the fact the cards they win with Mishra’s Factory, Cursed Scroll, Bloodghast and Nether Spirit which are comparably weak.

i think key cards for Suicide are some type of creature buff like Umezawa’s Jitte or Unholy Strength recommended a while back by Jin15. there may be a list out there but at this point it seems unlikely. jitte still gives many creature decks problems. its a way to level the playing field if you can get an active one. Jin15 says is slow and plays Unholy Strength instead, but both may be in order. something that pumps your guys since black’s creatures are so small.

i will reiterate the list by Stark. it has a singular focus. resolve jitte on a small creature. disrupt combo decks. race other weenie decks. protection from white may be a solution. have had limited success with creatures like Stromgald Crusader. also cards that cost you life like Confident and/or Bitterblossom seem like a must include because the give many decks headaches.

also drain life and lake of the dead are too slow in my opinion. if you need lake of the dead, i would only play 1. you can’t really afford to sacrifice too many land in the current format. i used to run 1 lake of the dead and 3 culling the weak in a hatred deck which is also problematic now. drain life has never been played in suicide black at least since the ‘90’s. i really don't have an opinion about Eva Green as i have never played the deck.

miccel

05-04-2012, 04:10 AM

in fact i was an eva green player with good results...but i've sell goyfs bayous and all green card for splash...i'm trying to build a deck monocolor but replace goyf for my suicide gameplay is very difficult..
i've try obliterator but i dislike them...negator in better in this archetype in my opinion but the drawback is an hard problem in this metagame...from red based i'm lost!!!! i've test negator in these days but only against merfolk maverik and zoo....against zoo no comment but agaist merfolk and maverik is not so bad with a fast cast with rotual at t1...i've close the game quickly...but in a competitive tournament prospective i don't known if it is a good choice:cry:...sunday i will go to a medium tourney after 2years and try to play suicide without goyfs first time...
about kozilek and seize...i play seize for the possibility to discard everiting if i need...any planeswalker for example...a fow for my important casting...i dont known i need more test for other considerations...thanks for helps guys

Tempus

05-04-2012, 05:33 AM

miccel

05-04-2012, 06:37 AM

that is true, no one play this deck...but the metagame is made by the choicse of players...for example if in a 50players tournament there are 15maverik...min 1 go to top 8...put 15suicide in the same competition...if only 1go top8 we will say "suicide come back"! it is only my opinion of course...sorry
if i've change the discussion but i can not belive this archetype is dead! i love only sui gameplay!
about chains of M. i think it is not bad card for this deck...need test

lyracian

05-04-2012, 07:42 AM

Apart from no one playing this deck, why doesn't it play Chains of Mephistopheles?
It hoses Brainstorm and Jace pretty bad, makes Ponder a bit worse and be therefore great against RUG, ANT and High Tide. Also all the Blade decks take a hit from it.I expect because most of us playing around wth Sui do not have $200 bucks to get Chains. It is fine if you are playing MWS where the cards do not cost anything.

KobeBryan

05-04-2012, 05:33 PM

Dark Ritual

05-05-2012, 11:56 PM

I bought 2 italian chains for 60 bucks. ha ha.

Anyways. Its not a good MD card. its an awesome SB card. You automatically kill doomsday, combo elves, and high tide combo.

It doesn't really work too well against ANT and TES though..but your nasty discard package should suffice.

Doomsday doesn't autolose to chains. They CAN combo through it with enough cards in hand. Not to mention bounce spells are a thing. Never underestimate combo decks. They can also have the capacity to just IGG loop to kill you, as that doesn't involve drawing cards. Or empty the warrens for a bunch. Or any number of things really. Also with high tide, they have access to bounce spells via cunning wish rather easily especially considering they can merchant scroll for wish then wish for a bounce spell. But really, chains isn't that great of a card in legacy. If it was instant speed, then hells yeah I would play that card in legacy just to live the dream of responding to brainstorm with it but as it stands the card is awful.

orcanmail

05-06-2012, 07:21 PM

I guess with wastelands abound i can already guess the answer, but is volraths stronghold worth playing? ( legendary land that brings creatures back from graveyard ) Like Lake of the Dead it looks tempting, but is it also a no no?
Comments?

Curby

05-07-2012, 04:31 AM

Stronghold belongs in more control-oriented decks. In an aggressive deck, i.e. anything with the name "suicide", you want to keep the pressure on. Using mana and draw steps to recur creatures seems like a waste of resources. If you're ahead, you don't need it. If you're behind, you likely want something better than something that already died once. This is all in addition to the fact that it weakens your manabase.

We've seen Zombies achieve some success in competitive play, but they recur without all the hassle of Stronghold. If you're looking for an aggressive deck with recurring creature threats, that might be worth a look.

Zupponn

05-13-2012, 12:35 AM

Just wanted to post this here. It's technically not suicide, but I feel that it gives suicide players a lot to think about.

4x Gravecrawler
4x Geralf's Messenger
4x Bloodghast
4x Vampire Lacerator
4x Diregraf Ghoul
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Stromgald Crusader
4x Bad Moon
4x Dismember
4x Disfigure
20x Swamp

There might be room for Wasteland, Dark Ritual, or different removal in here somewhere, but this is what I've been thinking of recently.

boneclub24

05-13-2012, 05:47 PM

Have you thought of adding something like Phyrexian Tower? You can do some sick plays like turn 1 Crawler, turn 2 Tower sac for Messenger. It also gives your guys protection from Swords to Plowshares.

I think that Disfigure should be something like Smother. Perhaps Sarcomancy > Lacerator, too.

Just something to think about. Personally, I'd love for a competitive Zombie deck to work out.

miccel

05-14-2012, 05:59 AM

it isn't suicide?!....ok ok...:eek:

Zupponn

05-14-2012, 05:35 PM

That deck is actually just a conversion of a modern deck that I've been thinking about. With all the black mana symbols in the casting costs of all the cards, it becomes a bit risky to run non-swamp lands, but both Wasteland and Phyrexian Tower have their benefits that may outweigh the risks. I've been thinking about going to 21 lands too, so maybe a 4/1 or 3/1 split of Wasteland/Phyrexian Tower is what I might try.

Smother seems like a really good addition to the deck , but I wonder if that extra mana in its cost would give the deck any trouble. Then again, being able to kill Knight of the Reliquary at any time is a big plus.

I also was thinking about Sarcomancy myself, wondering if it would be better than either 2/2 1-drop. Vampire Lacerator might be the correct one to cut in favor of it, but I always hate dropping Diregraf Ghoul when you need to block something.

Only testing will tell what changes are better and what changes are worse! Thanks for the input!

EDIT: Tested out the lands and didn't like them. They mess with the manabase too much with all that black mana. I also didn't like Smother too much because the 1 extra mana actually makes a difference. Sarcomancy is better than the other 2 1-drops most of the time, but against Thalia, Guardian of Thraben it becomes worse. The only change that I've made is swapping out 4 Gatekeeper of Malakirs for 4 Umezawa's Jittes, and I've really liked that switch.

abetman

05-16-2012, 12:01 AM

about my list in this page...i think i can modify maindeck...and side...
main board -2reanimate +2jitte
sideboard -3jitte -3perish -2ratchet bomb +2massacre +3dystopia +3phyrexian negator

i need jitte maindeck...with bloodghast it's fantastic "kamikaze" option for charge counters.... i think that reanimate is good only for mother of the runes or goyfs

maverick is more white than green......dystopia+massacre->perish...
ratchet bomb is too slow....i can use that only for tokens (a lot of lingering souls) but now i have massacre........
phyrexian negator..........i need i fast beater against combo landstill or any "controll" archetype who plays no creatures or only 3-4creatures...turn1 dark ritual-->negator make pressure!
this is my new side:
2massacre
3dystopia
3pithing needle
3phyrexian negator
4extirpate/leyline of the void
what do you think about?
any suggestion for main or side?
no one reply my last report.....
go go sui black is not dead!!!

How do you find sinkhole in the current meta? Do you want more draw effects in the deck?

Namida

05-16-2012, 12:41 AM

How do you find sinkhole in the current meta? Do you want more draw effects in the deck?

How does a Black Aggro Deck operate? What is Sinkhole's function supposed to be in a Black Aggro Deck? Frankly, I think this deck suffers from some fundamental flaws in today's game, but I wouldn't criticize anyone for trying to make the deck work. That said, I also think playing Sinkhole is clinging to an outdated notion of the format. You see, I don't think mono black has the tools to get its mediocre MBA creatures into the red zone enough times to end the game, and the deck lacks the reach of other tempo decks like RUG that can play burn spells. Sinkhole does not help this problem, because the top decks are Delver decks that can operate off of two lands, and Maverick decks that play mana guys and GSZ to stay on par.

joemauer

05-16-2012, 01:26 AM

I also think playing Sinkhole is clinging to an outdated notion of the format. Sinkhole does not help this problem, because the top decks .... can operate off of two lands .......

This has been the problem with sinkhole for the past few years.

I don't know if mono black can be competitive right now, but it really should forgo the land destruction route.

KobeBryan

05-16-2012, 02:10 AM

This has been the problem with sinkhole for the past few years.

I don't know if mono black can be competitive right now, but it really should forgo the land destruction route.

black aggro decks just aren't viable period.

you have 16 poor topdecks. 4 hymns 4 thoughtseize, 4 dark rituals, 4 sinkholes. This isn't including the lands that you draw mid to late game.

Bant, Mav, they can drop things on you each turn. Thats the problem I see.

Namida

05-16-2012, 02:15 AM

black aggro decks just aren't viable period.

you have 16 poor topdecks. 4 hymns 4 thoughtseize, 4 dark rituals, 4 sinkholes. This isn't including the lands that you draw mid to late game.

Bant, Mav, they can drop things on you each turn. Thats the problem I see.

The parallel in my mind is the RUG Delver deck that is currently King of the Hill these days. Both decks aim to lay a cheap threat or two down and to ride it/them to victory by playing cards to keep opposing strategies out of the game. Perhaps if we can address why that deck succeeds and this deck falls short, we might be able to get somewhere concerning making this deck more viable.

Hardcore

05-16-2012, 04:29 PM

A friend of mine have a Suicide deck that is really suicide. It dies to combo because it mainly runs creatures. It also run dark rituals and Some unholy strengths.
Of course, sideboard could include like a mix of hand disruption, but game one is really a coin toss vs combo. Against everyone else it is very strong.

evanmartyr

05-17-2012, 04:03 AM

Hardcore

05-17-2012, 05:47 AM

:smile: Well, when I meet him next time I will make sure to get his decklist.

Hardcore

05-17-2012, 03:54 PM

Suicide Black by Nicklas Kärrstrand aka "Flax"

1 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dark Confidant
2 Dauthi Horror
4 Carnophage
4 Dauthi Slayer
3 Sewer Rats
4 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
2 Contamination
4 Unholy Strength
4 Bad Moon

20 Swamp

abetman

05-17-2012, 06:10 PM

Isn't vampire lacerator better than carnophage? Aside from it acts as a buffer for the sacromancy tokens.

Death's shadow would also be a good card here I suppose.

comandantenorton83

05-17-2012, 08:16 PM

I'd try to put 4 Funeral Charm in the Unholy Strenght slots. Also, I think I'd try to squeeze 2x Jittes in (don't know how :-).

PS: can't get my card tags working. What do I have to write before and after the card's name?

Hardcore

05-18-2012, 06:20 AM

My friends deck is a sort of casual, because he never played it in tourney. Today he would splash red he say.

necrowil

06-06-2012, 08:19 AM

While there is not a solid list to play, I have found some interesting cards that I think warrant further attention.

Massacre
Predator’s Gambit
Lake of the Dead

As I said, Lake of the Dead is not the greatest card in the world. However playing 1 is not too bad. If you play 2 or more just know that when you draw a 2nd it will probably be useless.

Jin15 wrote about Unholy Strength being viable. The fact is, its not bad in Suicide Black. I was very surprised after testing Predator’s Gambit so it has some merit.

The best card I have found by far is Massacre. It solves a ton of problems. Particularly with decks that run all those annoying green and white creatures. It is also not bad against other decks as well like goblins and the like so try it out. I tested Dread of Night as well and found it less then stellar. This is targeted at white but it kills all the annoying green creatures as well.

So I recommend

3-4 Massacre
2-3 Perish
4 Predator’s Gambit
1-2 Lake of the Dead

Particularly if you play Obliterator. Lakes helps that. Oh, by the way, I tested Demonic Taskmaster and found it less then stellar.

Also worth mentioning is Griselbrand which will see play in Sneak Attack and Reanimator. For us? Well not sure 8 man is doable really on any kind of consistent basis.

Dexietamo

06-06-2012, 04:11 PM

I think that's right!

Hardcore

06-07-2012, 11:15 AM

A quick deck I made last night

4 Carnophage
4 Carrion Rats
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Sewer Rats

2 Unholy Strength

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Raven’s Crime

4 Dark Ritual
4 Funeral Charm
18 swamp

Zazorf

06-07-2012, 02:28 PM

I actually think Carrion Feeder would be an solid addition to your list, Hardcore. I would consider your list to have the full suite of support in playsets of Gravecrawler & Bloodghast. Geralf's Messenger is a good match at well, but looks like it would be too high on the curve.

I notice a lack of fetchlands, which compliment Bloodghast and deck-thinning. Do you feel you're at a threshold of life loss already?

Hardcore

06-07-2012, 03:27 PM

no, i just saw no need for them.

necrowil

06-12-2012, 10:57 AM

honestly, if you are going to play a deck that fast, you might want to look at hatred. I know many people here are not fans. suicide is limited by the fact it takes a certain amount of turns to win. hatred decks usually don’t go beyond 5 turns. if they do, they will probably lose. this is what i am currently running now. i’m pretty happy with it.

I took out 3cc cards from the deck as they slow it down way too much. also you make want to run 1 soul spike as a finisher. if you get them to 4 life you can throw your cards at them.

also i know that sarcomancy is a much better card the carrion rats. its pretty easy for them to ensure they do no damage.

also, predator’s gambit does the same thing unholy strength does, but more. no reason to play strength over gambit now. unless you want to play both. those are my thoughts.

you may want to play some 2cc creatures also. chalice for 1 will wreck your deck.

you also may want to consider bitterblossom.

this is my current hatred deck list. once i have some tournament results. i'll post them here.

hatred

sideboard
4 cursed scroll
4 massacre
3 perish
2 forsaken wastes
2 umezawa's jitte

main
13 swamp
4 crystal vein
1 phyrexian tower
4 dark ritual
4 predator's gambit
4 hatred
1 spinning darkness
1 soul spike
4 sarcomancy
4 diregraf ghoul
4 blood pet
4 mesmeric fiend
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 skittering skirge

you may be wondering why i don’t have graveyard hate in the deck. haven’t found I need it and it deludes the decks speed to much. would rather race them.

in general i think suicide and gate are just too slow for the current environment where delver/tarmogoyf are defining cards of the format. this leaves all out speed suicide as the main viable alternative.

peace.

necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

necrowil

08-17-2012, 05:50 PM

Suicide Hatred

So Suicide is back but not in the way we have been discussing it here. I guess technically speaking this would be called Suicide Brown vs Suicide Black because of the artifacts in the deck, but really the artifacts only exist here primarily to speed the deck up and make it more deadly. And it is very fast with them in here. I threw Hatred in as well but often the deck will kill long before you get to 5 mana. Basically its in here primarily to ensure the game ends and you definitely want the game to end with this deck. As we know the longer the game goes on with Suicide, the weaker our deck becomes so this deck excels at having an aggressive start.

In most situations you can get the opponent down to ten life or less. If that happens, casting Hatred for ten is easy. It really doesn’t hurt even if they have an answer which they probably won’t. For the simple reason in all likelihood they will have used any removal they have or Counters they have to get rid of your 5/5 killers.

I have also listed this build under new and developmental decks. Now before anyone jumps up and down saying there is White in here. It is important to note this is simply because of all the artifacts in the deck that you want to speed up the deck. The White in here is for the most part inconsequential.

Suicide Hatred

Sideboard
4 Darksteel Citadel (Pernicious Deed is an issue, that is why these are here)
4 Cursed Scroll (way to win if they stop your creatures)
4 Massacre (we hate Maverick and this is the answer)
3 Perish (see above)

Main
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
4 Glimmervoid
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Geralf’s Messenger
4 Phylactery Lich
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Hatred

It is possible I may move the Citadels main deck, but they are really not needed unless you play vs Deed. And there is not that much Deed in the format right now but it does exist. If that happens I may add Ethersworn Canonist to the board to help deal with combo decks.

Again the artifacts are to speed the deck up and it is highly effective at doing that allowing you to easily play around Daze and Spell Pierce. The deck also doesn’t care about Chalice and most decks running it will not be casting Chalice for 3.

Phyrexian Negator is nice in the deck as well with so many Legendary lands and artifacts it is easy to sacrifice a few, not to mention Geralf’s Messenger. Messenger is primarily in here for Liliana of the Veil.

This deck often gets Hypnotic Specter and/or Tidehollow Sculler out on the first turn. The Moxes make it kind of ridiculous in combination with Dark Ritual.

Check it out. Its a beating.

Peace.

Necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

Iron Buddha

08-18-2012, 05:49 AM

The artifacts seem primarily to be there for the Lich. Since you already run Dark Ritual, you can also run Grim Monolith (another artifact) and power up to Grave Titan and Kokusho, the Evening Star (Lifegain is always good for Hatred). And then Cavern of Souls sounds reasonable, too. But why don't you have any protection like 1cc discard (maybe even Cabal Therapy)? They enable tempo plays. And last but not least, if you have Kokusho, you could also go the next step and add Recurring Nightmare, and turn the deck completly into a pile of bombs.

necrowil

08-18-2012, 12:54 PM

part of the issue with discard spells now is the fact that there are so many anti-discard spells like spell pierce and the like. the other issue is by playing a creature like sculler he's a potential hatred target. often i can play sculler turn 1 and ritual hatred turn 2. who cares about kokoshu then or recurring nightmare? and that's what suicide is about, reducing the life total to 0 as fast as possible. this deck does that. the artifacts enable you to play threats faster. made some changes after some further testing.

Sideboard
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Massacre
2 Perish
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Main
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Den
4 Glimmervoid
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Geralf’s Messenger
4 Phylactery Lich
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Hatred
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Boogie_Man

08-25-2012, 08:38 PM

Why wouldn't you run vault skirge instead of legionaire? evasion is great with hatred, plus you get all the life back if you can't alpha strike. not to mention it's great with jitte and you might actually be able to cast it without paying life.

eirirlar

09-18-2012, 06:59 AM

I've called my deck Azalin. It feels pretty strong as it is, but suggestions are always welcome.

I don't have a sideboard yet, need some help here.

3 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
2 Sarcomancy
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Phylactery Lich

I'm considering 2-4 Carrion Feeders in place of Diregraf Ghouls and/or Sarcomancys. What do you think?

slave

09-18-2012, 01:49 PM

The new little creature from RtR could be useful...
Rakdos Cackler, 2/2 and 1-drop Red or Black.
It's not a zombie, but thats the only minus I can see......

ForlornEgoist

09-18-2012, 03:35 PM

3 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
2 Sarcomancy
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Phylactery Lich

Perhaps you should post the list on the Deadguy thread as this deck fits more the nitch of BW midrange control than it does MBA. I had actually built up a brand new BW involving Gravecrawler. Assuming you want white in this build I will message you or respond on the Deadguy thread since I don't wish to derail the MBA Suicide discussion.

If I were to remove the White from this list, here is what I would suggest:

Add Top: You're running a rather high curve with 7 3cc and 15 2cc. Considering you're assuming the role of control, have no way to tutor up Jitte (you're only life gain), and really have very little interaction with the opponent you'll need to be able to fix your draws. Since there's still a great deal of S&T/Maverick/Delver its insanely relevant to draw the cards you require as well as mitigate as much unnecessary life loss as you can. If you don't want Top, then reduce your fetches to around 4-5.

Cursed Scroll and Sarcomancy: Both were legitimate cards for Suicide back before 'Goyf. I recall fondly the days of using these cards. That having been said, they've no place in your build. Scrolls activations are too much of an investment for what they offer. Your mana each turn should either be spent on a threat or reserved to cast a reactive spell (removal) or ability (Top). Investing 3 mana for the CHANCE that you might randomly deal 2 damage is not a justifiable cost. As for Sarcomancy, there is little if any point in running this card. Every creature in the format can answer a 2/2 token, and once said token dies you're at risk of taking Upkeep damage which we ultimately can't negate beyond throwing a Zombie onto the field (considering black really has no Enchantment removal). Remove both of these cards.

Assuming we wish to keep this mono-black, here is how I might compose this list:

3 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Mutavault
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Swamp

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Go for the Throat
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gravecrawler
4 Dark Confidant
3 Phylactery Lich
3 Bitterblossom
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Chrome Mox
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Note that this list is a VERY rough list. Its based on the B/W list I built so I had to compromise a lot of the original list, especially since I'm assuming you want to keep the Lich in the deck.

With this list you have added control elements (IoK/GftT) as well as guranteed aggro (Bitterblossom). The Tops help not only to fix draws but will give you a better chance of digging into the deck for your removal or Jittes.

I added Mutavault because not only is it an extra piece of aggro, it has great synergy with Gravecrawler meaning you can afford to run less Zombies.

I also reduced the Mox count to 3. I assume the game plan was to accelerate out Lich asap however considering the Tier 1 decks atm your biggest concerns for removal are either by StP/PtE, Terminus, and counters, all of which are answers to Indestructible. Mox is a card that works out great when its in your opening 7 but beyond that its a terrible topdeck. Top helps to mitigate bad draws but you still don't want to see a Mox lategame. 3 is sufficient for your needs.

I, myself, prefer to go balls to the walls and opt just to run Thoughtseize over other discard but many people are hesitant to run it, especially with Bob, Bitterblossom, Fetches, as well as against opposing burn. IoK should be suitable for your needs.

Well, I hope these suggestions were in some way helpful.

Forlorn Egoist

Zupponn

10-10-2012, 11:18 PM

I'm just gonna drop this little bundle of fun here for giggles:

4x Gravecrawler
4x Carnophage
4x Vampire Lacerator
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Sacromancy
4x Bloodghast
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Ritual
4x Bad Moon
4x Smother
2x Snuff Out
18x Swamp

This is a little update of a list I posted here earlier.

Zupponn

10-10-2012, 11:21 PM

I'm just gonna drop this little bundle of fun here for giggles:

4x Gravecrawler
4x Carnophage
4x Vampire Lacerator
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Sarcomancy
4x Bloodghast
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Ritual
4x Bad Moon
4x Smother
2x Snuff Out
18x Swamp

This is a little update of a list I posted here earlier.

dal9ll

10-11-2012, 03:21 PM

Diabolic Edict seems better than Smother. Jitte is the tips here too.

Lastly, what do you have against Bob?

necrowil

10-14-2012, 12:12 AM

You will need something to deal with first turn Chalice for 1. Personally I would not recommend more then 12 1cc creatures. Then the rest should be 2 and higher. This is what I am currently running.

Hatred

Sideboard
4 Cursed Scroll
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Extirpate
2 Perish
1 Spinning Darkness

Main
10 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Peat Bog
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Dark Ritual
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Hatred
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Geralf’s Messenger
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Obliterator

Peat Bog is a fairly good mana accelerant with Urborg in play. Also, if you are going to run Phylactery Lich about half of your deck needs to be artifacts or you will run into problems.

Peace.

Necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

orcanmail

11-10-2012, 05:58 AM

I've been adjusting my mono black aggro deck after playtesting and this is how far i've got

4 Snuff Out
3 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Dark ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole ( would change for dark confident if i had them )
4 Stromgald Cabal ( Pro from white pumpable flyers for carrying jitte )
4 Nantuko Shade ( can trade with goyf! )
3 Crypt Rats ( need to test this more )
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Umez Jitte ( still considering a 3rd )

4 Wasteland
16 Swamp

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Perish
3 Dystopia
2 Nevs Disk

I don't own any dark confidents and am considering getting 4 Phyrexian Arenas for card draw.
Also without putting 4 Chalice of the Void and 3 Mindbreak Traps into the sideboard I struggle against Storm Combo, even with discard as disruption.

Dystopias are excellent, Disks a bit slow but hit most problems, and perish is strong. I wanted to put in Liliana just for the artwork but she didn't quite make the cut.

Comments?

Hardcore

11-10-2012, 10:25 PM

Your Meta decide how your deck will look like. IN EVERY DETAIL. Mono black is unique in that way.
Describe it for us so we can give good advice.

slave

11-15-2012, 10:58 PM

Your Meta decide how your deck will look like. IN EVERY DETAIL. Mono black is unique in that way.
Describe it for us so we can give good advice.

Just curious here guys.

I've been playing around with a R/B list for a little while, running many of the same creature cards listed previously in Suicide Black.
But I'm also running a few Goblin Guide, Vexing Devil, Funeral Charm, Cabal Therapy & about 6 Burn spells to (possibly) clear the way for my creatures, 3 Jitte.
Fury Charm in the side for artifact killing with a pump (possibly).
2 Browbeat, 2 Bloodchief Ascension & a single Raven's Crime in there for flexibility.

Have any of you tried R/B with any success?
And do you think my list is any good?

Hardcore

11-16-2012, 03:34 AM

TV Aggro is one of the oldest archetypes in magic. Should be plenty of old lists to browse for inspiration.

Keep your spells cheap to cast, add soon card drawing and you should be fine.

Erdvermampfa

11-17-2012, 10:37 AM

All those lists posted above are just terrible and barely playable. It seems that people don't understand what suicide decks actually want to achieve. It's about disrupting your opponents in the first 3-4 turns by discard and landdestruction and then dropping a big creature to finish the job. Appearently most people aren't aware of this and therefore post lists like those mentioned. The actual problem of suicide is that it's black (therefore no library manipulation) and that it lacks a sufficient amount of efficient beaters.

necrowil

11-18-2012, 02:10 PM

Actually the current version of the deck I am running seems to be a solid build. Meaning it wins about 60% of its matches and has a solid matchup vs the current field. The only deck that I need to test more against is UW Miracles and if it becomes a top deck I’ll add Stromgald Cabal to the sideboard. Maybe something to deal with Darkblast. But every other deck in the format I have tested against and the results are fairly solid after finishing the sideboard.

While this is not Suicide persay. Its a definite derivative of Suicide and worth mentioning because it can kill very quickly.

Hatred

Sideboard
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Massacre
3 Manriki-Gusari
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Perish

Main
10 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3 Phyrexian Tower
2 Lake of the Dead
4 Dark Ritual
3 Hatred
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gravecrawler
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Geralf’s Messenger
3 Phyrexian Obliterator

Many creature decks splash white which makes Massacre amazing. Even vs goblins it’s a solid card if things get out of hand. Not to mention Elfball. The messenger’s are primarily in there for Liliana of the Veil and Pox decks as well as burn. And Obliterator obviously deals with burn well.

Fiends and Hippies and Wastelands do sufficient slow your opponent down while you are setting up for a Obliterator or Hatred.

Earlier I spoke against Lake of the Dead but Urborg makes Lake actually viable as you always have to seem an extra Urborg in your hand so sacrificing one to Lake of the Dead is not unrealistic.

People have been saying Hatred is not viable forever. In the hands of a good player any deck can prove formidable.

Peace.

Necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

necrowil

01-21-2013, 07:45 PM

suicide is fairly dead right now but the current version i run has proven itself to be a solid tier 2 deck.

suicide black

sideboard
4 cursed scroll
3 liliana of the veil
3 bitterblossom
2 umezawa's jitte
2 perish
1 bloodghast

main
10 swamp
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 ghost quarter
4 wasteland
4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
3 hatred
4 deathrite shaman
4 hypnotic specter
3 gatekeeper of malakir
3 vampire nighthawk
3 geralf's messenger
3 phyrexian obliterator
3 bloodghast

the creatures that are listed as 3 you really don't want a 4th for various reasons with each one. obliterator is too expensive, gatekeeper is not always useful, nighthawk does not deal enough damage for opponents to be too concerned, its a utility card vs aggressive decks, bloodghast is mostly for standstill and pure control, messenger is there for pox and decks with sacrifice effects and liliana, hatred is there vs decks like charbelcher and to give you an option when you are overmatched. it works well.

the sideboard is really strong vs the field as well. deathrite shaman is MVP. why gate doesn't run it i will never know. its a way of killing your opponent if they attempt to lock up the game. plus its mana. 23 creatures main is a perfect number for an aggressive deck. the new set doesn't look like it offers us much but if you have not used shaman yet i highly recommend it

also ghost quarter may require explanation. its there for land decks and cloudpost decks and artifact decks and its highly effective against those decks. for all intent it is a strip mine against some decks that don't run basic land. or you can use it if you draw too many urborg as well.

you may thing there is not enough black mana in the deck. you're wrong. try it out.

Peace.

Necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

orcanmail

02-07-2013, 10:40 AM

Diabolic Edict seems better than Smother. Jitte is the tips here too.

Lastly, what do you have against Bob?

So I've just got 4 bobs, the missing pieces as the deck needs an engine.

The list is now

Snuff Out x4
Dark Ritual x 4
Thoughtseize x 4
Diabolic Edict x 3
Sinkhole x 4
Hymn to Tourach x 4
Dark Confidant x 4
Stromgald Crusader x 3
Nantuko Shade x 3
Hypnotic Specter x 4
Umez Jitte x 3

Wasteland x 4
Swamp x 16

SB
Leyline of Void x 4
Mindbreak Trap x 4
Inquisition of Kozilek x 2
Perish x 2
Dystopia x 3

The Snuff outs and edicts are dropped v combo and traps and inquisitions are in, with maybe the jittes also out and leylines in.

The list has removal and an engine, whilst keeping disruption and crusaders with jittes and shades as finishers.

The deck needs Bob! I'll test it out next time I'm down the local club.

orcanmail

02-14-2013, 11:13 AM

[QUOTE=orcanmail;702907]So I've just got 4 bobs, the missing pieces as the deck needs an engine.

The bobs with thoughseizes and snuff outs cause too much damage so after testing the deck is now as above with changes

-4 snuff out
-3 diabolic edict
-4 hypnotic specter

+4 Gatekeeper
+ 4 Smother
+1 Stromgald Cabal
+ 2 Inquisition of Kozilek

SB
_2 Inquisition of kozilek
+ 2 Grafdiggers cage

Should perform better I think but are there any cheaper effective removal for black than smother?

necrowil

02-19-2013, 01:16 PM

Suicide black is definitely viable again with recent print of Deathrite Shaman that has breathed new life into the deck.

Suicide Black

Sideboard
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Cursed Scroll
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Perish

Main
10 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Hatred
3 Bitterblossom
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Geralf’s Messenger
3 Phyrexian Obliterator

Basically I don’t believe Confidant, Gatekeeper or Nighthawk are beatdown suicide cards. People have a lot of trouble vs this version. If they side in a lot of graveyard hate it weakens their deck.

MVP is Ghost Quarter, Deathrite Shaman, Cabal Therapy and Bloodghast. Hasted creatures means a lot in the format now especially ones that can come back from the grave. If they try to remove it you can respond by using Ghost Quarter.

The deck doesn’t really need Hatred but I still like being able to kill my opponent when they run out of answers or draw a weak hand vs my deck.

Not sure why Gate is not running it but Shaman is amazing. It solves a ton of problems for us. Removes graveyard threats, speeds up the deck and it the opponent locks the game you can still kill them using the nontarget damage effect. I love them.

Peace.

Necrowil
I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

thEnd3000

08-17-2013, 11:19 AM

I am new to The Source, but I have been playing and following legacy for a while. I have always been a fan of Sui Black, and it was actually my first legacy deck.

I decided to take it out for a spin and made top 4 in a 16 player local event, and I just thought my fellow Sui Black enthusiasts (if there are any left) might be interested in my list and my report.

This is the list I played:

Lands:
Swamp x 20

Creatures:
Order of the Ebon Hand x4
Gatekeeper of Malakir x4
Geralf's Messenger x4
Phyrexian Obliterator x4

Artifacts:
Cursed Scroll x4

Instants and Sorceries
Thoughtseize x4
Inquisition of Kozlilek x4
Dark Ritual x4
Hymn to Tourach x4
Dismember x4

Sideboard:
Surgical Extraction x4
Relic of Progenitus x4
Pithing Needle x4
Ratchet Bomb x3

My Report:

Vs. Belcher
Game 1
This was honestly not the matchup I wanted to see, especially since he won the die roll, which meant I was fully expecting to get belched or swarmed with goblins on turn 1.

Fortunately for me, lady luck really wanted me to win this game 1, because my opponent mulliganed at least once, and he kept a hand with lots of Gitaxian Probes and a Street Wraith, and never really found a win condition until my beaters got there (I think I had a Geralf's Messenger and an Order of the Ebon hand on the field, and possibly an active Cursed Scroll too).

Game 2
I sided in 4 Pithing Needles and 3 Ratchet bombs, and I took out 4 Dismembers and 3 Cursed Scrolls.

I saw a hand with a ratchet bomb and some beaters, and I just prayed he was on the goblin plan. He wasn't, and instead he played a turn 1 Belcher and activated it on turn 2 or 3. I had no needles and I did not even have time to blow up a Tinder Wall on his side with Ratchet Bomb before I got belched for well over 20.

Game 3
Once again, lady luck was smiling on me. My opening hand had a Pithing Needle, a Ratchet Bomb, beaters, and lands to cast all of my spells, so of course I kept. Since I was on the play, I felt really good about this game. Of course, my first play was Pithing Needle naming Goblin Charbelcher. I played an Order of the Ebon Hand on turn 2 and a Geralf's Messenger on turn 3. He fired off Empty the Warrens for 14 goblins and used basically all his spells in the process, so I of course played and activated Ratchet Bomb the following turn and finished him before he could recover.

Record so far = 1-0 (2-1 in total matches)

Vs Dredge
Game 1
My opponent won the die roll, but mulled once or twice. At first, this made me feel good about my chances, but then I saw him play a five color land and a Putrid Imp, and suddenly I didn't like my chances as much. When he didn't discard a dredger on his next upkeep, suddenly I felt good about my chances again. I had a few beaters on the field, and that he didn't draw any dredgers for the next 4 turns or so, so lady luck really screwed my opponent out of this game, and I won.

Game 2
I sided in 4 Surgical Extractions, 3 Ratchet Bombs, and 4 Relic of Progenitus. I sided out 4 Thoughtseizes, 4 Hymn to Tourachs, and 3 Cursed Scrolls. I sided in two Pithing Needles too (for Putrid Imp), but I cannot remember what I sided out.

I chose to play, and my opening hand contained a Surgical Extraction, a Relic of Progenitus, a Dark Ritual, a Geralf's Messenger, an Order of the Ebon Hand, and 2 lands. I played a turn 1 Geralf's Messenger off a Dark Ritual to start the beats. My opponent started going nuts with Lion's Eye Diamond, Faithless Looting, and multiple Dredgers. I let two Narcomoeba triggers resolve (probably a mistake), instead deciding to extract Bridge from Below. Since I saw a Golgari Grave Troll and a Golgari Thug when I extracted the Bridges, I decided it was better to slow-roll my Relic than to risk a swift recovery on his part.

At this point, it was a race between a couple of Ichorids on his side vs my Messenger and pump knight. I knew he could only return Ichorid a few times before he ran out of black cards to exile, so I was patient, and we both got pretty low on life. At some point, he played his Golgari Thug from his hand, which made things a bit complicated. However, since I was slow-rolling my Relic, it didn't bother me too much as long as I had my Relic open. At some point, I Dismembered his Putrid Imp, but the dead Imp and some other black cards gave more fuel to his Ichorids, ao I cracked my Relic at the end of his turn. About this time, he went to 1 life from activating City of Brass multiple times, and I had to decide whether to attack into his Thug and Narcomoebas or play a Phyrexian Obliterator and wait to attack the next turn. I decided on the latter, and since he had no apparent way to dredge into more action, he scooped, as the trample damage alone would have been lethal.

Record so far = 2-0 (4-1 in total matches)
Vs Rug Delver (A.K.A. Canadian Thresh):
Game 1
I actually have experience playing against RUG delver, and I feel I am favored as long as I draw enough swamps and/or Dark Rituals. My deck has answers to all RUG’s threats, my manabase is impervious to wasteland and stifle, and RUG really doesn't have any ideal answers to Phyrexian Obliterator or Geralf's Messenger.

However, since I didn't know what my opponent was playing game 1, I kept a risky hand with 3 Hymns, a Thoughtseize, two swamps, and an Order of the Ebon hand, hoping to be facing a controlish or combo deck. In essence, I got stuck on two mana for the first 4 turns or so, and my opponent Dazed and Forced all my discard spells, and I ultimately ended up with an Order of the Ebon hand staring down at a thresheld Mongoose and a 4/5 Tarmogoyf. I lost.

Game 2:
I sided out 3 Order of the Ebon Hands and 4 Hymn to Tourachs for 4 Relic of Progenitus and 3 Ratchet Bombs.

I played a turn 1 Geralf’s Messenger off a Dark Ritual (which later got killed by lightning bolt + Stifle). Ultimately, I resolved a Cursed Scroll and killed one of his Delvers with 2 Dismembers in hand, so I felt set to deal with whatever he played except for Nimble Mongoose. Of course he drew Nimble Mongoose next turn.

Believe it or not, I actually found myself in a race between my Scroll and his Thresheld Mongoose, and by my calculations, since he was at a lower life total, I would win one turn before he did as long as he didn't draw another Goose or a burn spell. I was really hoping to draw more creatures, but I kept drawing lands. I was really happy when I Inquisitioned him the turn before I would win with Scroll, and he had no Stifle, no bolts, and no cantrips. I just had to pray he didn't draw into a bolt or a stifle, and I would live at 3 life. He ripped a Lightning Bolt off the top of his library, and I lost. That's just the way RUG Delver rolls, so it didn't bother me, I just have to play as best I can each game and hope for the best.

Record = 2-1 (4-3 in total matches)

At this point, I asked around, and discovered that a 3-1 record was almost certain to make top 8, so I still felt good about my chances. It turned out that I didn't even have to play another game to make top 8, (probably because most of the 1-2s dropped out), so we were off to the top 8.

Top 8:

Vs Dredge
Game 1

This was the same opponent that I faced in the second round of the swiss. I think lost the die roll again. For a while, it looked like my opponent's luck was repeating itself, as he didn't have a dredger for the first 2 or 3 turns. However, as soon as he drew a dredger, he made a bunch of zombie tokens before I could dismember my own Gatekeeper (he ended up stripping the Dismember from my hand anyways), and he dumped a bunch of Ichorids in his graveyard which killed me on turn 4 or 5 I think.

Game 2
I sided in 4 Surgicals, 4 Relic, and 3 Ratchbombs, and sided out 4 Dismembers, 3 Scolls, and 4 Hymns. I sided out the Dismembers instead of Thoughtseize this time because I always like to maximize my chances of having a turn 1 discard spell on the play vs Dredge.

It was getting late, and my play was slipping a bit, so my memory is not the best as to what happened. All I remember was that I made my opponent discard a Brakethrough on turn one (which could very well have led to a turn 1 kill for him), he went on the end-step discard a dredger plan, and I had graveyard hate for each dredger he discarded. I won this game.

Game 3:
I sided out 4 Thoughtseizes for 4 Dismembers.

My opponent mulled to 4 this game. There is not much to say here, other than we both made some apparent misplays, but since he was working with very few cards in hand and I had a bunch of hate like usual, this was not a particularly fun game for either of us. At least I won, which is more fun than losing, but I still felt robbed of a potentially fun game 3.

Top 4:

Vs Reanimator
Game 1
I think I have an OK chance to win this match-up as long as I am on the play so my first turn discard spells pull their weight. I lost the die roll, however, and my opponent played a first turn Entomb or Careful Study (I can't remember which). He then Forced of Willed my first turn discard spell, and he Animated his dead Griselbrand. I scooped when he Thoughtseized the next turn, as I had lost anyway and did not want him to see my hand.

Game 2
I sided out 4 Cursed Scrolls and 4 Dismembers for 4 Relics and 4 Surgical Extractions.

I kept a hand without much discard and with a slow clock, but at least I had a Relic. I probably should have mulled, but it was late, so I was losing focus and not playing at my best. Not much to say here other than he brought Griselbrand to show and tell and all I brought was a swamp, so needless to say, I lost.

Thoughts:
Since I played combo most of the day, Cursed Scroll was not too great, but I highly recommend it in this meta, even in the main deck, because it really functions a lot like a one card Punishing Fire / Grove of the Burnwillows combo, even though it is vulnerable to Abrupt Decay (which is not actually that bad vs Sui Black because decks that use Abrupt Decay as their primary removal spell usually have a very hard time dealing with Geralf's Messenger and Phyrexian Obliterator). Order of the Ebon Hand would have been better all day as Nantuko Shade, but in testing, protection from white seemed essential since this deck is overall pretty soft to Swords to Plowshares, Batterskull, and Jitte without it (and this old-school pump knight actually pulls a lot of weight against those cards, since first strike stops Jitte counters and holds off Batterskull if you have enough mana).

Darkenslight

08-18-2013, 07:44 AM

Is Stillmoon Cavalier not a viable card in place of the Hand?

thEnd3000

08-19-2013, 09:40 AM

Stillmoon is an option, but the only issue there is that he costs three mana, and my three mana slot is pretty clogged with the Messengers and the Gatekeepers. I have considered perhaps switching Gatekeeper to a two mana edict to make room, but the downside there is lowering the deck's threat density and increasing the mana curve of its threats, and that is an issue because one of the most common ways I lose is if I cannot apply enough pressure fast enough after I rip my opponent's hand apart. I just really wish Stillmoon was two mana :frown:

thEnd3000

09-01-2013, 12:10 PM

I have actually warmed up to the idea of running Stillmoon Cavalier recently, and I have currently replaced Order of the Ebon Hand in my build. I have indeed cut Gatekeeper of Malakir for Geth's Verdict to smooth out the curve. So far, my current build definitely does not seem to be worse, but I am not sure if it is better either.

One side effect of making these changes is that my deck now feels more like "The Gate" than "Sui Black," since making these changes has pushed it out of Aggro and into Midrange territory. If I post again, I will probably post in The Gate's thread for this reason. Truth be told, however, my current pet project is trying to build a budget Merfolk deck (it is actually showing promise, expect the one money card that cannot be compromised on is actually Aether Vial, not Force of Will), so I have not been testing Mono Black as much as I used to.

necrowil

09-05-2013, 09:24 AM

@thEnd3000 Thanks for the report. I like the deck you posted. I have some suggestions really, no criticisms.

1) There are a couple if issues that I see with black decks or decks with black in them.

Deathrite Shaman

This card is amazing. It’s the best toy we have gotten in a long time. Your deck has 20 land and multiple 3cc and 4cc creatures. Not sure where you are playing but I used to run a deck like that and it seems like you’re going to have a lot of games where you do not see a third land drop with 20 land. Currently my deck has 23 land, 4 Shaman and 4 Ritual. Granted I have a 2nd color but its basically a monoblack deck with a few white cards like Swords to Plowshares in the sideboard and Tidehollow Sculler. If you don’t have a ritual and you don’t hit your 3rd land drop that just sucks doesn’t it? Part of the reason I run Sculler is quite a bitter countermagic cannot stop it.

2) Sinkhole is not really an answer to Grove, Glacial Chasm, Cloudpost, Maze of Ith and Tabernacle. Why not run Wasteland? These 3 lands have cost me so many games I now run 4 Wasteland and 4 Ghost Quarter main deck. Ghost Quarter is the equivalent of Strip Mine vs three color decks now. Basically if they can stop your Sinkhole that’s it. Also Sinkhole does not produce mana and costs 2 when you should be dropping a threat really most of the time. If you run any non-basic land you can always run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

3) 16 creatures looks light to me. I mean sure they should have no cards with all the hand destruction you are running but even so. Personally, I think the creature mix for this deck should be 4 Deathrite Shaman, 4 Nantuko Shade, 4 Hypnotic Specter, 4 Geralf’s Messenger and 4 Phyrexian Obliterator. Gatekeeper in this deck is weak to me. You don’t want to play a 2/2 for 3 and take their weakest guy after you have destroyed their hand. Specter might allow you to cut the number of discard cards you are playing. Currently I run 4 Tidehollow, 4 Specter and 4 Hymn and 3 Liliana and it seems perfect to me.

Lastly you may want to consider play Liliana of the Veil and Umezawa’s Jitte in your build somewhere. That’s just my two cents. I run 3 Lil and 2 Jitte main deck. Lil also allows you to play less discard and less removal. She’s a little slower though.

Of course a lot of people don’t own all the cards I just mentioned but that’s why I play online. :D

Anyway that’s just my two cents.

jafar

09-05-2013, 11:41 AM

Why not running phyrexian crusader?

It seems perfect. Like a mongoose for a RUG :tongue:

Bye

Mortox

10-23-2013, 12:38 PM

Why not running phyrexian crusader?

It seems perfect. Like a mongoose for a RUG :tongue:

Bye

Most people don't bother with Crusader because he deals infect damage; unless you're running an entirely infect-based strategy he's just not reliable, you'll deal some amount of infect, have him removed, and his work (as an offensive unit anyway) will have been nullified. In a vacuum he's good, he avoids a lot of the most common removals played in Legacy outside of Abrupt Decay, but the fact that he creates the strategic conundrum that I mentioned makes him a poor choice in most lists.

The Big Ragu

01-16-2014, 02:47 PM

I'm surprised nobody ever plays Unearth. It's always played extremely well for me.

ScatmanX

01-16-2014, 05:16 PM

I'm surprised nobody ever plays Unearth. It's always played extremely well for me.
I'm surprised someone posted on this thread.

orcanmail

05-20-2014, 12:06 PM

Well with the new fattie in town I had to revisit mono black, get him out with a jitte and feast away.

4 dark rituals
3 dismember
3 diregraf ghoul
4 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 go for the throat
4 hymn to tourach
4 dark confidant
2 nantuko shade
3 stromgald crusader
3 umezawi's jitte
2 liliana of the veil
4 master of the feast

16 swamp
4 wasteland

SB
4 leyline of the void
4 mindbreak trap
2 tormod's crypt
2 grafdigger's cage
3 perish

gonna test the deck out for fun

Megadeus

05-20-2014, 12:24 PM

This deck makes me happy. And I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks master if the feast is awesome

Darkenslight

05-20-2014, 01:25 PM

I'd suggest Hero's Downfall over the GftTs in the list.

orcanmail

05-21-2014, 09:01 AM

I must admit I am still considering Hero's Downfall in that slot for removal, 1cc more expensive but can deal with planeswalkers. Could be a meta call.

Zupponn

05-22-2014, 01:24 AM

Darkenslight

05-22-2014, 02:13 AM

As with most decks that I play that don't have Stoneforge and run equipment, I personally don't like having 3 Jittes.

I'd rather have 2x Jitte and 1x SoFI if running 3 equipment or 1x Jitte and 1x SoFI if running 2 equipment.

Multiple Jittes in hand usually makes me sad.

Would SoLaS be a better shoice for SuiBlack? I ask because it seems like the lifegain and the creature recursion are more relevant than the SoFaI abilities. In addition, it gives a creature protection from Farms and Paths.

Zupponn

05-22-2014, 03:44 AM

Would SoLaS be a better shoice for SuiBlack? I ask because it seems like the lifegain and the creature recursion are more relevant than the SoFaI abilities. In addition, it gives a creature protection from Farms and Paths.

Possibly, but Fire and Ice lets you both punch through TNN as well as control the board or finish the game quicker. Plus, getting those extra card draws are really nice.

Maybe even think about going with one in the Main and the other in the Side. If you expect Lightning Bolts, Main Fire and Ice, but if you expect Swords, Main Light and Shadow.

orcanmail

05-22-2014, 06:53 AM

Yeah the swords are also good equipment as well as Jittes, I also thought about replacing one of my jittes for a sword.

After play testing though last night I realised the deck needs some more speed and a bit more removal. Many games were close, but the deck needs to explode a bit quicker out of the blocks. I'm therefore gonna add some chrome moxes and lotus petals to see how it works out. My adapted list is going to be the same sideboard as before.
I dropped 1 dismember due to damage from dark confidants and thoughtseize, plus i can accellerate more easily into hero's downfall and now deal with jace the mindsculptor. I've kept go for the throat as i needed removal, and lowered my disruption and dropped inquisition of kozilek. I shall see how it performs next wednesday at the local club!
It was fun however dropping Master of the Feast!!! But maybe Gatekeeper could contend for this slot, although the big fattie is the fun part of the deck!

3 chrome mox
2 lotus petal
4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
2 dismember
4 hymn to tourach
4 dark confidant
2 nantuko shade
3 stromgald crusader
2 go for the throat
3 jitte
3 hero's downfall
2 liliana of the veil
4 master of the feast

4 wasteland
14 swamp

Jo11ygrnreefer

06-20-2014, 01:21 AM

When the new block rotates in, I'm hoping some new cards will be introduced that might return suicide to tier 1, keeping my fingers crossed for mono black.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk 2

jcsy

06-27-2014, 01:47 AM

When the new block rotates in, I'm hoping some new cards will be introduced that might return suicide to tier 1, keeping my fingers crossed for mono black.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk 2

with Waste Not coming in m15, we can pursue a more heavy discard plan and just rip opponents hands all day long :D

what are your thoughts

Jo11ygrnreefer

07-01-2014, 04:20 PM

deleted

necrowil

03-19-2015, 02:05 AM

This is something I like to call Deadguy Depths. It's similar to Pikula's version long ago with obviously newer cards. But not bothering to post on the Deadguy thread as most there feel the deck should be mostly white. Definitely I see suicide splashing in the future. Herald of Torment definitely adds something. I have not tried Master of the Feast as I'm leery of giving my opponents options.

Deadguy Depths

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TE] Cursed Scroll
SB: 4 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 4 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 2 [ZEN] Marsh Casualties

// Main Deck

// Lands
4 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [CS] Dark Depths
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [JGC] Wasteland
3 [R] Scrubland
2 [M11] Swamp (1)
1 [9E] Plains (1)

// Creatures
4 [BNG] Herald of Torment
4 [4E] Hypnotic Specter
4 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
3 [JGC] Dark Confidant
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [TE] Dark Ritual
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [TE] Cursed Scroll

Will let people know when I have some tournament results, but Depths adds a lot to the deck. Feels like Hatred back in the day.

Peace.

Necrowil

I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

Captain Hammer

03-19-2015, 01:39 PM

If you're going to splash a color in Suicide Black, that color absolutely should be green IMO.

Green adds so much to the deck. This is the list I play with and I love it...

Deck Name: Su Black
// Lands (22)
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Forest

// Creatures (17)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells (21)
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Yes it doesn't play Dark Ritual. I used to but Deathrite Shaman provides adequate acceleration that Dark Ritual ended up being a dead card too often (not to mention an awful topdeck).

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I'm still debating Sylvan Library vs. Sensei's Divining Top so if you think one is better than the other for this deck, I would love to hear your input.

Chatto

03-20-2015, 01:04 PM

Library is free to use, but can't be saved when you use Deed. I would go for SDT just because of this: you really need some kind if card-filtering, otherwise you'll get bad topdecks.

Just my 2ct.

Zupponn

03-25-2015, 08:36 PM

Here's something to think about:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/dtk/112.jpg

GenghisTom

03-25-2015, 09:29 PM

With all the life loss, shouldn't these decks be running Death's Shadow?
Is there any reason not to?

Ralf

07-06-2015, 10:11 AM

Quick Report from Bazar of Duals @ GP Legacy Lille on Sunday.

Here is the deck list I registered:

2 Marsh Flats
3 Badlands
3 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
7 Swamp

4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Geralf's Messenger

1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Empty the Pits
4 Bile Blight
4 Dark Ritual
4 Soul Spike

2 Cruel Bargain
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Infernal Contract
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek

SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 2 Rakdos Charm
SB: 3 Slaughter Games

Round 1 vs Grixis -> 2/0
Round 2 vs Miracle -> 1/1
Round 3 vs Grixis -> 2/1
Round 4 vs BUG Delver -> 2/0
Round 5 vs Pernicious Jace Standstill -> 0/2
Round 6 vs Grixis Delver -> 2/1 (deck check, errors being made on fetchs G1 = loss)
Round 7 vs Miracle -> 0/2 (really really close G1, mana death G2)

Missed money by an inch...(4/2/1).
The deck was really a blast to play.

Curby

07-06-2015, 11:55 AM

Ralf

07-06-2015, 12:59 PM

Congrats on the good showing! It's nice to see underrepresented decks still performing reasonably well at large events. It seems your build has some trouble with blue contol decks like Miracles. Are their card advantage engines too much for discard to keep up with?

I faced 2 miracle decks on this event (263 players).

1st Miracle

G1: He is facing a lethal strike with 4 zombie tokens. In response, Entreat for 4 angle tokens blocking mine. He has 2 cards in hands. I play bile blight on the angels, he fows pitching FOW (he saw the playset during the game...) That is his only out as he is tapped out for entreat. Could have been my greatest play EVER.

G2: I resolve a pyrostatic pilar T2 which is most likely game in 90 % case. It is. Period

G3: Mana Death (keep a 2 lander opening hand but never draw the third one). But I still play fast. The miracle player do not pay attention to the clock and he is unable to find Entreat to kill me before the end of the fifth additional turn.

2nd Miracle

G1: I am able to keep up under the countertop softlock because his curve @3 is really low and he is not able to counter my big draw spells.

Key turns: a gatekeeper sneaked through CB lock, Jace @ 3 on the table. I'm @ 3 life. He is @ 9. 4 swamps in play on my side.

1) Play Iok -> reveals a Force + CB + 1 terminus + 2 lands. I take the CB.
2) Attack Jace -> top + Entreat for 3 in response (full tap) -> all 3 angels block the gatekeeper -> bile blight. 2 angels + keeper are gone.
3) I still have 6 cards in hands among a spike, another draw 4, 2 other bile blight, 1 messenger, 1 Empty the pits and a decision to take knowing he still has a FOW in hand which he can hardcast next turn.
4) I choose to spike the Jace (pitching Messenger + Bile Blight) as my deck contains a lot of sac' effect for the angel and I can still buy a turn with the last Bile blight.
5) Go back to 7 life. EOT.
6) Draws top, plays land + top, attack with the angel for 4. Still has 6 mana opened + 3 cards in hand. End of his Turn.
7) Draw HTT. My only out here is to play HTT and pray to catch the FOW + Bile blight at his upkeep (most likely his next 3 tops cards are not wonderful) so that I would go down to 2 life and be able to draw 4 cards to find an out to the token.
8) Play HTT, opponent put the 3 cards down on the table. Throw a dice, a card is out. I'm about to throw the second roll and my opponent stopped me: "no need to throw another dice roll, I keep that one and lose the rest". Obviously he kept the FOW...Was I trolled ?

=> G2 :(

Thinking afterwards, I should have called a Judge. The guy was nice but still.

Thinking twice, the correct play here should have been to spike the token and try to take the aggro route with Messenger. At least I wouldn't have died to the angel.

G2: 11 cards in / 11 out.

1) I keep a one lander + ritual hand into Messenger + REB which could be enough to clock him until he is @ 8.
2) I play IoK on my T1 without drawing a land. He had no sword / no cantrip. I take a counterspell.
3) T2, no land, ritual into messenger /start praying.
4) T3, attack for 3, no sword/no cantrip, path is clear -> draw step terminus :(

Pretty lucky here. I then struggle for many many turns to get to 3 lands but he is already too far ahead for me to crawl back into the game.

I won't draw any hasty conclusions about the miracle MU with my deck.
Both rounds, I did not see a single "Slaughter Games".
I think the MU is 50/50 overall but we are speaking of the best deck in the Legacy format right ?

MGB

07-07-2015, 08:07 AM

Question about your list:

- Why Bile Blight over, say, Victim of Night?

- Why no Liliana of the Veil?

Ralf

07-07-2015, 10:02 AM

Question about your list:

- Why Bile Blight over, say, Victim of Night?

- Why no Liliana of the Veil?

Bile Blight

The initial list was playing "Geth's verdict" instead of "Bile Blight".
As the meta has shifted to token strategy, I had to adapt the list a bit.

Bile blight is underplayed in mono black decks and I do think that the card is underrated.
I have killed 2 flipped delver, killed a tarmogoyf blocked by a gatekeeper, reduced damages from angel's tokens and killed pyromancer's token + innocent blood the pyromancer itself in the same turn. I have also killed 2 Tarmo with 2 bile blights and used it once for a shenanigan when my messenger was targetted by a STP.

Bile Blight was MVP that day. Mostly because I was paired against decks where it really shines.

If you compare "Bile Blight" with "Victim of the Night", there are very few things in Legacy that does not die to Bile Blight (any x/4) and even then the main deck is already packing 8 sacrifice's effects (4 keeper, 4 IB).
Furthermore, as there is almost no strategy that mix big dudes with swarm, every most common use cases are covered up.

Liliana

MD is not "set in stone".
If you like the list, please test it, tweak it, and let's share experience or ideas.

The inital list was packing 4 lilianas. Because at first, I thought that having access to six "draw 4" would compensate her symmetrical effect.
I was wrong.
She might be one of the best PW that Legacy has access to, but in my shell I found her to be rather a liability than a true bomb (except against control).
Why ?

The main concept of this deck is to make good use of "Infernal Contract/ Curel Bargain" paired with "Soul Spike".

1) Her +1 is symmetric and we are not using any recurring tools (such as PF for example).
2) Even if late drawn discard spells could be discarded to her first ability, usually I'm more than happy to spare them for free Spike.
3) The mana curve @ 3 is really clogged and the mana base is really tight. Making adjustment here is really difficult without tweaking the whole deck.

So, all in all, she was often just a sacrifice effect for 3 mana...

disgustipated

07-11-2015, 01:19 AM

Quick Report from Bazar of Duals @ GP Legacy Lille on Sunday.

Here is the deck list I registered:

(decklist above)

Round 1 vs Grixis -> 2/0
Round 2 vs Miracle -> 1/1
Round 3 vs Grixis -> 2/1
Round 4 vs BUG Delver -> 2/0
Round 5 vs Pernicious Jace Standstill -> 0/2
Round 6 vs Grixis Delver -> 2/1 (deck check, errors being made on fetchs G1 = loss)
Round 7 vs Miracle -> 0/2 (really really close G1, mana death G2)

Missed money by an inch...(4/2/1).
The deck was really a blast to play.

Hey Ralf, I was doing a test stream to make sure everything is set up correctly on twitch and played your deck: http://www.twitch.tv/ill_intent/v/7304334

I had a good 2-1 game over Miracles even though I'm sure I made many mistakes. Do you have any tips? How do you sideboard versus delver decks, storm, miracles, D & T/hatebear?

I'd love to do a lot of testing with the deck in order to fine tune it a bit more, once I learn to play it well of course.

Ralf

07-12-2015, 06:19 AM

Hey Ralf, I was doing a test stream to make sure everything is set up correctly on twitch and played your deck: http://www.twitch.tv/ill_intent/v/7304334

I had a good 2-1 game over Miracles even though I'm sure I made many mistakes. Do you have any tips? How do you sideboard versus delver decks, storm, miracles, D & T/hatebear?

I'd love to do a lot of testing with the deck in order to fine tune it a bit more, once I learn to play it well of course.

I don't have a lot of time right now to go through all the MU. But I'll do it later.
What you can keep in mind is that against tempo strategy you usually side out a few draw 4 and a spike for a spinning darkness and REB effect.
Against combo you side in pyrostatic pillar and Slaughter games + REB while cutting into spot removals.
Against fair decks you usually cut targetted discard + some dark ritual for additional removal/sweepers/anti arto

Thx for showing interest in the deck. May I suggest you try thoughtseize instead of inquisition of kozilek MD. I had a good argument with some friends about it. They believe it is better even if sometimes you'll die because of the 2 life loss

miccel

07-12-2015, 06:22 AM

I like your list a lot @Ralf...have you tried a monoblack version of this deck before adding red stuff for SB?

Ralf

07-12-2015, 06:23 AM

I like your list a lot @Ralf...have you tried a monoblack version of this deck before adding red stuff for SB?

Yes sir, as I told the list is not set in stone. I have added Red for GP reasons as we were expecting a lot of blue decks. Also because the miracle MU was very hard as mono black and we wanted to win games not to draw

disgustipated

07-12-2015, 03:39 PM

I don't have a lot of time right now to go through all the MU. But I'll do it later.
What you can keep in mind is that against tempo strategy you usually side out a few draw 4 and a spike for a spinning darkness and REB effect.
Against combo you side in pyrostatic pillar and Slaughter games + REB while cutting into spot removals.
Against fair decks you usually cut targetted discard + some dark ritual for additional removal/sweepers/anti arto

Thx for showing interest in the deck. May I suggest you try thoughtseize instead of inquisition of kozilek MD. I had a good argument with some friends about it. They believe it is better even if sometimes you'll die because of the 2 life loss

Thanks for your response :)

I've noticed the deck struggles a bit if overwhelmed with Young Pyromancer tokens or creatures in multiple in the early game - especially if we don't have Dark Ritual at the right times to catch up or if a crucial removal spell gets dazed/countered. I have been trying Grim Lavamancer as a 1 of or 2 of in the MD (or perhaps 1 MD 1 SB) to combat this. I am also trying Marsh Casualties as a 1-of in the main over a Bile Blight.

Have you tested Engineered Plague in the side, or Dread of Night? Permanent based SB hate is probably a little less desirable since it doesnt fill up our GY, but despite this I think these cards deserve a look. I just played against D & T and Grim Lavamancer cleaned up their board quite nicely. Perhaps Lavamancer would take up the Plague / Pyroclasm spots? I understand Lavamancer wouldn't be terrific in multiples (unless the first one eats removal spell) especially since it messes with the Empty the Pits finisher, but when Lavamancer maintains board control (stops them from playing their creatures) we can clean out their hand with discard and have more time to get to 4 mana and fill up the GY for E.T.P delve. Lavamancer is also good for shrinking Goyfs in the early game and can keep them in Bile Blight range - or you can ping the Goyf for 2 then follow up with B.B.

I do think 1 sweeper would be nice in the main. Toxic Deluge, Drown in Sorrow, Marsh Casualties, something along these lines. Hell, perhaps even Electrickery. Tokens / lots of x/1s screw up the edict plan as they allow opponent to sacrifice their worthless creatures to keep their beefy Goyfs or Tasigurs swinging. Big Game Hunter seems like a nice answer to Goyf / Tasigur as well but I don't think BGH deserves a spot in the main since so many decks run creatures with only less than 4 power. The Madness feature isn't irrelevant because often if I get off an early Draw 4 I have to discard 1.