What if you take out 1 of Frogmite/Worker/Orni/Enforcer?Originally Posted by kicks_422
My MTG Blog
"The game is not worth the candle."
Since my meta is combo free, I was looking for a card to replace the four Chalices in the board, something useful against Trygon Predator but not completely dead versus other decks. Right now I'm playing Thoughtseize, wich has been "meh" so far, slowing down the deck too much. Any idea?
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity - Seneca, Roman dramatist
If trygon predator is the problem (which is quite strange) you could play some sort of creature removal, like Executioner's Capsule or aether spellbomb/echoing truth. Capsule helps the Painter's and Breakfast matchup if they're present in your meta.
You could even play welding jar, which can also be good in the combat phase, against deed/EE/disk/wasteland and (non-split second) disenchant effects.
If those decks/cards are not present and predator is not that huge then Thoughtseize remains the overall better card.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Trygon is not that big of a problem but, you know, sometimes it wrecks you.
Guess I'll stick with 'seize. Maybe later on I'll try Capsule or Deathmark...
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity - Seneca, Roman dramatist
..
How about playing a card that's better against Dredge... Heap Doll anyone? You get a 1/1 so it's not always irrelevant, as it keeps your curve, and dredge actually can't win with it out, and if you have vial at 1, same thing as they probably won't play around it game 1. Essentially you are getting a worker + a card that makes you not roll to graveyard effects, all in one.
BTW, 3/3 split on vial and drum is awful. 4 drum is absolutely essential from what I've found, as you are trying to be explosive, not slow and clunky. This also allows for more options (mana fixing, etc). Atog is the actual stone nuts most of the time, as is fling. These cards make you not stone kold to combo decks as you can apply disruption with therapy as well as the ability to race them with tog and fling.
As Zappa stated, the problem is not only Dredge, but a lot of other decks/cards. Heap Doll is good against Dredge and Breakfast, and can sometimes slow down Loam. Sure, Doll has a body to work with, but Relic is also re-usable and draws a card (which is likely to draw you something better than a 1/1).
The split between vial and drum is made to lessen the diminishing returns on both cards. 2x or 3x drums sucks. 1-2x drums+1 Vial is better. If you feel comfortable with a 2/4 split or even a 3/4 split it's right.
Atog and fling are not worth it, as stated in the primer: both are non-artifacts and open the deck to X for 1s in opponent's favor, and are also of an off-color.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
@ Jujuhawk
Even though I prefer Tormod's to all other gy hate in Affinity (although, a single relic in place of a crypt hasn't been bad), Relic is ~10.3345x* times betters than Heap Doll for the side slots devoted to GY hate, even against Dredge. Dredge can still win just fine with Heap Doll in play--the same cannot be said for Relic or Crypt.How about playing a card that's better against Dredge... Heap Doll anyone? You get a 1/1 so it's not always irrelevant, as it keeps your curve, and dredge actually can't win with it out, and if you have vial at 1, same thing as they probably won't play around it game 1. Essentially you are getting a worker + a card that makes you not roll to graveyard effects, all in one.
Relic can be constant pressure, and when you need to blow, it does the whole GY with a cantrip. Removing Bridges against Ichorid isn't enough. Clear the GY, or don't even try. Heap Doll seems decent against Ichorid, but in testing you'll find that Relic is still much stronger. Not to mention, Heap Doll just gets worse and worse compared to relic against all other GY-based decks.
I'd also like to point out that Heap Doll is merely 50% of a Worker when another artifact creature is in play.
I get to quote myself (that is always fun):BTW, 3/3 split on vial and drum is awful. 4 drum is absolutely essential from what I've found, as you are trying to be explosive, not slow and clunky. This also allows for more options (mana fixing, etc).
Vial is nearly as explosive as Drum, and Vial remains explosive in blue-based metagames where Drum may or may not. If you think Vial is slow and clunky, then you are playing in a metagame where Vial Affinity doesn't belong (or you simply haven't tested to card against a standard Legacy gauntlet).The general rule for the deck: Where Vial Affinity deserves to be played, Vial deserves to be played. If Aether Vial is somehow a terrible choice in a specific metagame, then Vial Affinity is a terrible choice in that specific metagame. You are playing in a metagame that is simply too fast for Affinity to be competitive.
Aether Vial is not an optional card for optimal builds of Vial Affinity. With that said, the exact number you can run is optional. Because there are diminishing returns to the card and we have access to Drum, 3 is an acceptable minimum. Others may run 4, and that is also very acceptable.
...
If you goto 4 on either card [Vial or Drum], Vial should be first.
3/3 and 4/2 splits on Vial/Drum are the correct choices if you are playing 6 accelerant slots, and 4/3 Vial/Drum if you are playing 7 (some go all the way to 8, but that is obvious).
GreenOne's response + ___Atog is the actual stone nuts most of the time, as is fling. These cards make you not stone kold to combo decks as you can apply disruption with therapy as well as the ability to race them with tog and fling.
You are going to lose to combo. Don't run awful cards like Fling/Atog because it gives you a small shot to play a faster deck than normal Vial Affinity against combo. Accept your losses and play a better deck against the metagame where Vial Affinity belongs, or don't play Affinity because you are facing combo.
peace,
4eak
*there is a 86.3% chance I made this number up
However, Heap doll doesn't cost 2 to play and activate, and if your list of "having trouble with" cards contains mongoose and werebear, than that says alot about the list in general. Losing to threshold is embarassing at best, and the same goes for stuff like aggro loam.
Heap doll is a creature, and isn't a completely dead 2 mana cantrip in most matchups.
Reiterating your former statements is bleh, as it's not as up to date as it should be. Vial is SO slow. Of course drawing 3 drums is awful, but 3 vials isn't any better, so your argument is null. 4/2 split is I think what my friend is playing, and I fully believe that with a full set of thopters, springleaf drum is the best card. This card allows you to run out most of your hand on turn 2, and it fixes your mana, which gives more options when you turn to things like sideboarding and splashing cards. Vial starts getting online turn 3/4, but with drum, your hand will likely be on the board by then, rather than sitting on a vial and hoping to slow the game down and get there in the late game. IMO this weakens you vs. counterbalance decks, as it gives them time to dig for crucial removal, and putting pressure on immediately is far better than vialing dudes out on turn 4.I get to quote myself (that is always fun):
Vial is nearly as explosive as Drum, and Vial remains explosive in blue-based metagames where Drum may or may not. If you think Vial is slow and clunky, then you are playing in a metagame where Vial Affinity doesn't belong (or you simply haven't tested to card against a standard Legacy gauntlet).
3/3 and 4/2 splits on Vial/Drum are the correct choices if you are playing 6 accelerant slots, and 4/3 Vial/Drum if you are playing 7 (some go all the way to 8, but that is obvious).
I can't believe you just said that. "You are going to lose to combo. Don't try to beat combo."GreenOne's response + ___
You are going to lose to combo. Don't run awful cards like Fling/Atog because it gives you a small shot to play a faster deck than normal Vial Affinity against combo. Accept your losses and play a better deck against the metagame where Vial Affinity belongs, or don't play Affinity because you are facing combo.
peace,
4eak
*there is a 86.3% chance I made this number up
This is by far one of the worst things I've heard on this forum. This deck doesn't HAVE to punt to combo decks. It's a bad matchup, yes, but you have outs available. FlingTog is one of your best outs to that matchup,giving you a chance to turn 3 them , and after board you have therapy which can buy you up to 2 turns possibly, and I have 3 stifles in the board for the deed matchups, which they are usually very unprepared for.
Combo is going to be in EVERY metagame, and if you're just going to punt against a very popular deck, than I don't know what to say besides have fun losing. I think with a correct list and good numbers this deck can shine in any metagame where rock isn't super popular. You beat up on the counterbalance decks, and most decks don't have hate for it anymore, besides the decks that have hate on accident. If I were playing in the GP tomorrow this and UGx tempo thresh would be my 2 frontrunners, one rewarding playskill, and the other to beat people that aren't prepared, which is the edge this deck has.
Reading is tech:
It's not just a cantrip in most of the matchup, just because the majority of the decks are abusing the graveyard in his meta. Otherwise there would have been no reason to play MD graveyard hate.
I'm completely with 4eak. You can't race combo with your occasional turn 3 win, just because combo is faster. We have a turn 3-5 while they have a turn 1-3. Maybe you'll win 1 out of 3 games, but considering you're almost always going to lose G1, the probability of winning both G2 and G3 is so low you shouldn't count on it. If you want we can actually have some testing session and I will prove it to you.
Also, it's not like we're the only one siding cards against combo. Combo is probably siding Shattering Spree/Rebuild/Serenity against us.
Combo is part of any metagame, but this deck should be played where there's a low number of combo decks and a good number of Aggrocontrol decks. (Also, if there's an high number of blue aggrocontrol deck, one of Affinity best matchups, there probably will be a low number of Combo decks at the top tables).
By playing Atogs and Flings you open yourself more to spot removal and by adding Red to the manabase you open yourself more to LD and Wasteland.
Increasing the number of non-artifact spells also weakens your deck's core (Plating, Ravager, Affinity cards, MoE). So, IMO, you're basically running a more speedy deck that tries to go all-in, more than a deck full of bombs and must counters. This is likely to increase your percentage against combo by a negligible margin and decrease your results against control decks.
How's your list like? can you post it?
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
@ Jujuhawk
Heap Doll didn't make the primer for a reason: Heap Doll is jank in legacy.However, Heap doll doesn't cost 2 to play and activate, and if your list of "having trouble with" cards contains mongoose and werebear, than that says alot about the list in general. Losing to threshold is embarassing at best, and the same goes for stuff like aggro loam.
I'm surprised you need further explanation about the qualitative differences between Heap Doll and Relic/Crypt against GY-based decks. You continue to overemphasize Heap Doll's body, and you continue not to recognize the cases where and the reasons why we would choose to play GY hate.
Losing a game to Threshold shouldn't be embarrassing. Threshold ALWAYS has a chance to win against any deck in the Legacy. You will lose some games to Thresh, that is a fact of life in Legacy. The proportion of games won and lost is what really matters in this case. Affinity still has an advantageous win/loss ratio against Thresh decks which aren't prepared to face Affinity, but having an advantage doesn't mean you are immune.
Lastly, there are other decks and other GY based decks besides Ichorid and Threshold with which we board in our GY hate. Your statements do not indicate you have taken this into account.
The statements came from the recently made primer. This is up-to-date. Feel free to read to it.Reiterating your former statements is bleh, as it's not as up to date as it should be.
Before I continue debating Vial/Drum with you, please take the time to read the pages of text already written on the subject in both threads so that we aren't repeating ourselves. You're arguments are not new ones -- we've been over this topic several times.
Have you sat down and played 20 games against TES or ANT? Seriously, Affinity is atrocious against a competent combo pilot (admittedly, not so easy to find). The idea of throwing the combo match, especially as an aggro deck, is nothing new--this shouldn't be hard to believe at all. Even on this site, plenty of decks that aren't playing a blue control shell or very heavy hand/land disruption throw the combo match all the time.I can't believe you just said that. "You are going to lose to combo. Don't try to beat combo."
peace,
4eak
It seems like you haven't even tested heap doll and you're just dismissing it. The card is actually insane. This isn't based on theory. Me and my playgroup have been playing this deck for 2 months in preparation for the GP, and some people are playing 4 MD. The card is a Worker, that can get dredge or random GY decks. Some of you are punting your MD game vs. decks when it's completely unnecessary. You have a chance VS these decks without having cards that are dead in other matchups.
Yeah, but their counterbalances and things are embarassing compared to your myr enforcers and those things. That matchup is this decks bye, and it's the reason this deck should be played.Losing a game to Threshold shouldn't be embarrassing. Threshold ALWAYS has a chance to win against any deck in the Legacy. You will lose some games to Thresh, that is a fact of life in Legacy. The proportion of games won and lost is what really matters in this case. Affinity still has an advantageous win/loss ratio against Thresh decks which aren't prepared to face Affinity, but having an advantage doesn't mean you are immune.
Yes, I have. Heap Doll is just as good in these matchups. Breakfast, good. Dredge, good. These are the only other real GY decks besides Team America I guess, and I consider that deck pee, so that's kind of null.Lastly, there are other decks and other GY based decks besides Ichorid and Threshold with which we board in our GY hate. Your statements do not indicate you have taken this into account.
Just dismissing this argument and saying "We've argued this before, I'm right, etc" isn't getting anywhere. You're being dense and alot of things I find wrong in this thread, that's why I'm arguing my points. Hurr.The statements came from the recently made primer. This is up-to-date. Feel free to read to it.
Before I continue debating Vial/Drum with you, please take the time to read the pages of text already written on the subject in both threads so that we aren't repeating ourselves. You're arguments are not new ones -- we've been over this topic several times.
No, they aren't. Good decks don't "throw" matchups against a super popular deck (not that I mention good. Shit like zoo or whatever pee deck you'll use as an argument does not constitute good). Things like goblins have a chance, as they board in DI disruption. Playing good cards in your sideboard isn't a new thing to legacy, or maybe it is according to what I've seen so far in this thread. 4 Therapies in the board makes you not completely kold to combo, along with my 3 stifles. Not only that, but they beat your other bad matchup, deed decks. Rolling dead to such a popular deck is the worst thing you can possibly do. The matchup is obviously hard, but not unwinnable. Look, replace your pithing needles with stifles! That hits deeds AND combo! Unreal!Have you sat down and played 20 games against TES or ANT? Seriously, Affinity is atrocious against a competent combo pilot (admittedly, not so easy to find). The idea of throwing the combo match, especially as an aggro deck, is nothing new--this shouldn't be hard to believe at all. Even on this site, plenty of decks that aren't playing a blue control shell or very heavy hand/land disruption throw the combo match all the time.
peace,
4eak
Dredge: Crypt and Relic are better
Aggro Loam: Relic is better. Heap Doll can just sometimes remove a loam.
Landstill: Relic stops EE recursion AND Crucible. Heap doll is likely to stop EE recursion OR Crucible.
Survival: Relic stops Goyfs, Squee, Anger, Genesis, Witness. Hep doll stops 1 of those. Doesn't stop goyf.
UGx threshold: Heap doll chumpblocks, Relic makes every opposing creatures suck.
Team America: Heap Doll chumpblocks. Relic makes goyf suck and prevent the opponent from playing Tombstalker.
It's the Fear: Heap doll takes away a loam, where relic shrinks goyfs, stop EE recursion and loam.
Stax: heap doll can take 1 land from the graveyard, where Relic stops crucible.
Relic has also a continuus effect that you can use every turn, where heap doll is single-shot.
There are a lot of deck that use the graveyard in legacy, and you considered so few.
Here's from the Goblins thread:
So, at least you have to admit there's other people taking the "ignore combo and win everything else" strategy.
It's not we're pretending to be just right. It's just that every month or two someone starts saying that vial is bad in the deck (I did it too long ago!). So every 2 months we have to say again the exact same things. That's why you can just read the last 10-15 pages of the old thread and THEN start again the discussion about vial if it they were not satisfactoy.
Evidently even with a new thread and a good opening post it's not enough.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...hi09/welcome#1
Trial 9, etc.
And just because people don't try to beat combo doesn't mean it's correct :\.
EDIT: I don't know if you thought I was talking MD and SB, but I'm talking about MD Doll vs. Relic, and I believe in the maindeck heap doll is far superior, as it isn't dead vs. anything since it's always going to be an artifact creature.
Um...With that build, I'm sure he was anticipating combo. Quite a bit...
My MTG Blog
"The game is not worth the candle."
That's my exact list, he's a friend of mine. And if you had read the past few posts you would understand the choices.
I don't get 3 things in this deck:
- 17 Lands with only 3 Citadels. There were no wastelands in the meta?
- 3 Masters of Etherium and 3 Cranial plating. Those are bombs that MUST be dealt with in a couple of turns or just lose. Why not play 4?
- Stifle in the side: with only 9 blue sources, why playing stifle instead of Needle? Is combo that present?the number of artifacts seems quite low G2 and G3.
- Lack of green. I guess nobody played nasty enchantments.
Heap doll can be justifiable in some metas. Hell, if you're not encountering graveyard based decks beside Breakfast and Ichorid go on and play it. But if your meta is filled with general grave based decks, then Relic is the way to go. That's why I was suggesting Relic to Zappa.
EDIT: which decks did your friend play against?
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
If you want to play Heap Doll, can't you just play Heap Doll instead of Arcbound Worker MD and then SB in Relic of Progenitus as well? Heap Doll just doesn't have the impact of Relic of Pregenitus or Tormod's Crypt post SB, so it seems more sensible to run a card with legs and disruption MD instead of SBing it in as your anti-graveyard tech.
I mean Arcbound Worker is decent, but if Heap Doll improves match up percentages vs tough match ups like Loam and Ichorid, I'd rather go with that.
1. That manabase is different from mine. I play 2 COB, no glimmervoids, 4 citadels, and no blinkmoths. The manabase is usually fine though.
2. Cut in favor of less clunky cards, and outs to combo.
3. Your main-page list plays 4 Grips in the board and only 9 green sources. Your point? Yes, we're playing prepared for combo, and vs. the deed decks here needle just dies to their vindicate and buys a turn really, and it's very bad if they're ready for it. Plus stifle is good against combo, etc.
4. The only enchantment that's really bad for me is deed, and I have 7 outs in the board. Moat is not present here as no one has them, and cb/top isn't awful for this deck.
Hi!
At first place - big congratz to authors of this awesome opening post! Great job!!
I play very similar version of deck you mention. My only changes are -3 S.Drum; + 1x A.Vial, + 2x Paradise Mantle (in my opinion quicker version).
Now I´m testing version with white - 4 maindeck Ethersworn Canonist. I cut 1 Disciple (the most discutable for you I think), 1 Frogmite, 1 Thoughtcast and 1 Aether Vial (from my version with four of it).
And of course switch ToT for Ancient Den.
The pity of this solution is we have to give up split second ability of Krosan Grip and replace it in SB by Disenchatn.
My point of view is, that we need KGrip MAINLY (yes, Team America, Landstill,...) on the P.Deed in Rock-like decks - obviously no blue. And Disenchant is one mana cheaper - yeah, I know, KGrip is definitely and no question solution.
MD with Canonist is do good in my current testing. With cards I cutted, I increase my artifact count by two - which is often good.
I would like to hear some your suggestions, experience.
Have a great day!
Hi and welcome to Vial Affinity thread. Glad to know you took the time to read. 4eak and GreenOne spent quite alot of effort making it as detailed as possible.
Actually Paradise Mantle is outdated, and most decks have dropped the card for Springleaf Drum. I used to run mantle in my old build until I tried out the drum, I find the drum to be just all around better accellerating the deck.
I have another Vial Affinity build that's running a white splash instead of of a green splash as well. Canonist is a SB card, the only time I would see the reason for it to be run maindecked is when you are facing storm based combo decks. Which you should keep in mind that Affinity is not suited to be in a combo heavy field.
That aside, canonist's body is too small for a deck that should be aggro. 2 mana for a small frame just wont cut it. There will also be several matches where canonist will cause some problems, since the card is colored. Adding more colored cards to the deck will make you a lot more dependant on color fixing cards. Which could lead to you holding back the card when facing hate, or when waiting for the said colox fixers. Holding back is something that Affinity just does not want.
The card's you are cutting from the deck are the some core cards that makes the deck powerful. Shuffle up the deck and play it against people and see for yourself.
Always looking for more people to play in the Chicago area. Anyone interested send me a PM.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote