[Primer] Elves!

[Zombie]

What I have a problem with:

"That's why she chose a simple deck like Elves. Didn't want to grind those blue mirrors all day."

EDIT: And now Glimpse is the key card to stop in the deck. Engineered Plague is apparently also good. Oh, the deck apparently mulligans well, too.

[Dice_Box]

Found it:
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/427147076
1 hour 23 minutes in.


... This is painful to watch, and Christian is a fool. He could have had a turn 3 Jitte game one... What the hell was he thinking?

[Kayradis]

Like I said all week, it was pretty brutal. Hopefully, we can get Chris Andersen back on camera for some real Elves! action in the near future!

[Zombie]

Subpar play is fine, as long as it isn't made to seem smart. The commentary is far more of an egregious issue IMHO. Easy deck that mulligans well, this ain't.

[andrebonotto]

(...)

Lastly, does anyone have a link to this video? I see you all talk about it buy I have not seen it yet.



http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/427147076

R5: Jackie Lee (Elves) VS. Christian Calcano (Esper Deathblade)

01h21m40s:
Comments from Zack Halland and Gerrard Fabiano before the match starts.

01h25m09s:
"She's more of a Standard/Modern player and Limited (...) [that's] probably why she's playing a deck as simple as Elves . (...) Smart deck choice - [to] play a simpler combo deck. (...)"
:eyebrow:

01h27m22s:
Straight to the start of G1.

...

(EDIT: After I posted this is that I came to read this page, and it seems that my post is redundant. Sorry, but I'm leaving it here for my efforts, :laugh:)

[nudon]

That's how it works. Once, when I was playing burn, a guy gave a Jitte to his birds of paradise so he could attack and then pump it. Same deal here only the method is different.

Generating counters for jitte doesn't trigger until combat damage is dealt, not upon declaring attackers. You would need 1 counter on jitte prior to the first BoP attack to continue to deal damage.

[Julian23]

Generating counters for jitte doesn't trigger until combat damage is dealt, not upon declaring attackers. You would need 1 counter on jitte prior to the first BoP attack to continue to deal damage.

I think it was pretty clear that the Jitte was already active. The trick was giving it to a 0-toughness creature to continue swinging. That being said, I've had people killed with Noble Hierarch quite some time while being under Ensnaring Bridge.

[nudon]

Initially I thought that too but the board state just seems peculiar to me. In recent memory, the most likely deck running BoP is maverick (pre-DRS). However, maverick used to run 4 noble hierarch, which can get under ensnaring bridge in a grindy match anyway as indicated. I'm not sure why ensnaring bridge would be boarded in since gsz->hierarch provides multiple outs to it when it's probably better to just race. Secondly, the circumstances where jitte gets counters against burn without it being a scoop seems rare in my opinion. Why wasn't the creature bolted with the equip ability on the stack? Under the premise bridge was already out, there's no way to get counters on jitte. Under the premise that bridge was not out yet, it seems logical to bolt the opposing creature since 2 jitte counters equates to 4 life, putting you even farther away from the red zone. I might be reading too much into this but just my opinion.

[Dice_Box]

Ok not sure if this is the best place to talk about my burn match up but here we go.

I watched Jitte come off the back of stone because I misplayed. It had been the first time I had been in that matchup and I was trying to race him. It had tokens on it by the time bridge hit the table (Only 2) and I dropped a top decked Bridge. Bird hit the table, I had nothing in my hand so I needed to top an answer, all I got was land and lava spikes. Quite sad really.

[yuMi-]

Ok not sure if this is the best place to talk about my burn match up but here we go.

I watched Jitte come off the back of stone because I misplayed. It had been the first time I had been in that matchup and I was trying to race him. It had tokens on it by the time bridge hit the table (Only 2) and I dropped a top decked Bridge. Bird hit the table, I had nothing in my hand so I needed to top an answer, all I got was land and lava spikes. Quite sad really.

Bridge shouldn't come in against maverick.

[Dice_Box]

Yea, well once upon a time I had no real understanding what the deck was.

[Zombie]

The more I play against Storm decks, the more I like the matchup. I think we're even favoured postboard against Storm. At the very least so after Safekeeper gets into the deck. Keeper+Teeg is pretty much "Have Infest or Perish/Virtue's Ruin or lose."

[nevilshute]

The more I play against Storm decks, the more I like the matchup. I think we're even favoured postboard against Storm. At the very least so after Safekeeper gets into the deck. Keeper+Teeg is pretty much "Have Infest or Perish/Virtue's Ruin or lose."

Question: Do you feel that Sylvan Safekeeper merits a spot in the sideboard in general, or is it only in these combo heavy times? Does it do enough in other match ups than against Storm?

[Zombie]

Question: Do you feel that Sylvan Safekeeper merits a spot in the sideboard in general, or is it only in these combo heavy times? Does it do enough in other match ups than against Storm?

ffuu, it was shroud and not protection. So Pyroclasm still works. *sadface*

I'd still play one main. It can protect key win cons like Ruric or Public Enemy #1 (Symbiote) from removal against fair decks. And if they can't disrupt Visionary+Symbiote? Say hello to all the cards and damage prevention ever.

[Dice_Box]

Safekeeper, if only he was an elf... If only he was and elf...

Also, is not self destruction for the sake of self preservation more Reds thing?

[Kayradis]

Alright.
After multiple deliberations and questioning, I'm resleeving my pet deck for another tournament. A big one here in the Maritimes (Canada).

I know Im dedicating 1 slot to Ruric Thar MD, cutting the Regal Force and replacing it with the second Hoof.

Any other ideas?

SB ideas?

Cheers!

[Dice_Box]

Can you post your list including side and let us know what you think you will face?

[Kayradis]

Meta is quite unknown at the moment.
From what I know for sure,
U/W Delver, RUG Delver, OmniHall, Affinity, ANT/TES, Food Chain Combo. Im assuming 1 or 2 reanimator, a dredge player or two, a U/W Miracle and 2 Jund. That's quite a good sample of my metagame.

At this point my list stand as :

Lands // 16
3 x Windswepth Heath
3 x Verdant Catacombs
1 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Forest
2 x Bayou
1 x Savannah
1 x Tropical Island
1 x Dryad Arbor
3 x Gaea's Cradle

Creatures // 31
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Elvish Visionary
4 x Wirewood Symbiote
4 x Quirion Ranger
4 x Nettle Sentinel
4 x Heritage Druid
1 x Birchlore Ranger
1 x Viridian Shaman
1 x Llanowar Elves
1 x Priest Of Titania
1 x Fyndhorn Elves(or the new G elf druid, whatever I find foil/foreign first)
1 x Ruric Thar, The Unbowed
2 x Cratherhoof Behemoth

Spells // 12
4 x Glimpse Of Nature
3 x Natural Order
4 x Green Sun Zenith
1 x Crop Rotation

SB //
2 x Mindbreak Trap
1 x Qasali Pridemage
4 x Cabal Therapy
3 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Scavenging Ooze
1 x Natural Order
1 x Progenitus
1 x Thorn Of Amethysm
1 x Bojuka Bog
1 x Karakas

The SB is still in fluctuation.
Im debating cutting the Pridemage for something else.

[Dice_Box]

Putting the deck into Cockatrice now, it helps me see things. First thing it showed me, your sideboard is 16 cards...

Looking at it I feel like you need another Birchlore and another one drop Mana elf. I also question the point of the Tropical Island. It seams out of place.

Pridemage would be better replaced with Harmonic Sliver due to Sliver keeping priority while the effect fires off. Also with only one Crop Rotation I would not play with Bog. My personal, if not unconventional attack on graves is normally done with Loaming Shaman.

What makes you want to take out the last NO? When you side in Pro you will likely side in the NO with it.

[Kayradis]

Indeed! Just noticed as well...

Also, after multiple discussion here:
-1 Tropical Island
+1 Forest

and I would possibly cut the NO from the SB.

[Lemnear]

Meta is quite unknown at the moment.
From what I know for sure,
U/W Delver, RUG Delver, OmniHall, Affinity, ANT/TES, Food Chain Combo. Im assuming 1 or 2 reanimator, a dredge player or two, a U/W Miracle and 2 Jund. That's quite a good sample of my metagame.

At this point my list stand as :

Lands // 16
3 x Windswepth Heath
3 x Verdant Catacombs
1 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Forest
2 x Bayou
1 x Savannah
1 x Tropical Island
1 x Dryad Arbor
3 x Gaea's Cradle

Creatures // 31
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Elvish Visionary
4 x Wirewood Symbiote
4 x Quirion Ranger
4 x Nettle Sentinel
4 x Heritage Druid
1 x Birchlore Ranger
1 x Viridian Shaman
1 x Llanowar Elves
1 x Priest Of Titania
1 x Fyndhorn Elves(or the new G elf druid, whatever I find foil/foreign first)
1 x Ruric Thar, The Unbowed
2 x Cratherhoof Behemoth

Spells // 12
4 x Glimpse Of Nature
3 x Natural Order
4 x Green Sun Zenith
1 x Crop Rotation

SB //
2 x Mindbreak Trap
1 x Qasali Pridemage
4 x Cabal Therapy
3 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Scavenging Ooze
1 x Natural Order
1 x Progenitus
1 x Thorn Of Amethysm
1 x Bojuka Bog
1 x Karakas

The SB is still in fluctuation.
Im debating cutting the Pridemage for something else.

Cut Llanowar, Priest, Fyndhorn, Ruric, Crop Rotation and Tropical to add 1 NO, 1 Cradle, 1 Dryad Aebor and 3 Birchlore Ranger and you pretty much Running my Test-Maindeck.

Birchlores are a Million times better than Llanowar and Fyndhorn, especially for Early Glimpse chains, Ruric Thar hardcast and machine gun DRS'

[phazonmutant]

Something that came up in the TES thread, how do you guys usually play the storm matchup? If you have a mana dork and a Therapy, do you blind Therapy on one? Does your answer change if you have the natural-drawn Teeg or a GSZ in hand? Finally, does it matter if the storm deck is ANT / TES / High Tide?

[Koby]

Something that came up in the TES thread, how do you guys usually play the storm matchup? If you have a mana dork and a Therapy, do you blind Therapy on one? Does your answer change if you have the natural-drawn Teeg or a GSZ in hand? Finally, does it matter if the storm deck is ANT / TES / High Tide?

Vs TES, Elves have the least amount of time. Key cards are both Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish. Leading with Therapy is the best play.

Vs ANT, Elves has a little more time, but can still randomly die on turn 2. Key card is Infernal Tutor. Leading with Therapy is still the best play.

Vs. High Tide, Elves have the most amount of time. Leading with some form of aggro (Nettle Sentinel, DRS) is the best turn 1 play, followed by Cabal Therapy / flashback.

In each of these, it's best to resolve Cabal Therapy and its flashback before the opposing combo deck's fundamental turn (TES: 1 or 2; ANT: 2, High Tide: 3)

Therapy is generally supplemental with Teeg/GSZ plan but Therapy buys the most amount of time to land hate bears and resistors.

[chinEsE girl]

For me, the desicion between dork or discard is pretty situational for combo matchups, but it's easy to hash out. It comes down to weather your opponent can go off next turn or if your plan is teeg or some other hate piece. So lets say I'm on the play. I'd almost always lead with a mana dork turn 1. The widely played combo decks have a low turn 1 percentage, so you can afford to develop your mana first and then launch a therapy. Against stuff like belcher you'd always just therapy but I think that's obvious enough. If I was on the draw I'd therapy first, then play out my guys. Storm combo can easily go off turn 2, and the show and tell decks can have sol lands or lotus petal to also go off turn 2, so I'd rather not risk just being dead to those kinds of draws.

This general game plan could change a bit if Teeg is involved, usually via GSZ. If I had GSZ in hand and had to choose between discard and setting up a second turn GSZ for 2, on the draw, I'd probably use discard first to either stop the combo or stop their anti-teeg plan, then get out the advisor. On the play you can just mana dork -> teeg -> therapy and you should be able to protect your teeg and start applying the beats.

Basically the way I play these matchups is to play my discard the turn before they have their first likely turn to go off. This usually means turn 2, so I generally save my therepies for right before that turn.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Vs TES, Elves have the least amount of time. Key cards are both Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish. Leading with Therapy is the best play.

Vs ANT, Elves has a little more time, but can still randomly die on turn 2. Key card is Infernal Tutor. Leading with Therapy is still the best play.

You don't name LED in these matches? It's easily the least replaceable card in both of their decks and enables the Tutors you posted to be good in the early turns. Especially against TES, I used to name either Tutor or Wish but I was just guessing and if they had the other one... well, fuck then.

[Koby]

You don't name LED in these matches? It's easily the least replaceable card in both of their decks and enables the Tutors you posted to be good in the early turns. Especially against TES, I used to name either Tutor or Wish but I was just guessing and if they had the other one... well, fuck then.

Their decks are still constrained by 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 LED. Brainstorm/Ponder doesn't change that math. The choke point is their tutoring ability (4-7 tutors, 8 cantrips) not their mana (4 LED 4 Lotus Petal 4 Dark Ritual 3-4 other rituals).

[Dice_Box]

Question to the floor. What is do you think is the right mix of Fetchs and Cradles? Also do you run Rotation?

[chinEsE girl]

Question to the floor. What is do you think is the right mix of Fetchs and Cradles? Also do you run Rotation?

Right now my mana base is 9 fetches, 2 forest, 2 bayou, 1 savannah, 1 arbor, 4 cradle. I used to run a 2-2 split of cradle and rotation, but with the new rules change I've moved to the full 4 cradles. I've also taken out the land tutor targets in my board so I just don't need rotation in my list anymore.

[Zombie]

IIRC, 3 Cradle 2 Bayou 1 Savannah 2 Forest 2 Arbor 7 fetch with 2 Crop Rotation. I think I'll need to fit one more fetch in there somehow.

Silly hand from yesterday (postboard vs. UBr Doomsday Tendrils):


Forest
Bayou
GSZ
Rotation

Rotation
NO
Nettle

T2 draw: NO
T3 draw: Llanowar


T1: Bayou, GSZ(Arbor)
T2: Forest, Nettle, Crop(Cradle), Crop(Cradle), NO(Arbor>Ruric)
T3: Forest, Llanowar, NO(Llano>Hoof), swing 5+11+8=24

[nudon]

1. Does the forest on t3 represent the one you played on t2 being tapped since you only list 1 basic forest drawn?
2. I think the 11 should be 9 since the base damage for ruric is 6 (+3 from trigger).
3. I personally would have sacrificed nettle on t2 instead of arbor since the only card you had remaining to untap it was NO#2. Also, there are 4 copies of nettle as opposed to 2 arbors. Chain of vapor on ruric would leave you short on mana to cast NO#2 on t3 as well.

[Zombie]

Oops, no second Forest, no. Correct observations. Just wanted to show the hand because it looked silly and ended up doing silly things.

[danyul]

T1: Bayou, GSZ(Arbor)
T2: Forest, Nettle, Crop(Cradle), Crop(Cradle), NO(Arbor>Ruric)
T3: Forest, Llanowar, NO(Llano>Hoof), swing 5+11+8=24

So dirty. I love it.

There has been a crazy amount of discussion lately. I can hardly keep up. I've been meaning to put down the Xbox controller and update/flesh out the matchup section of the primer. And with the most recent DTB updates, this seems like as good a time as any. I don't want to derail the thread too hard, but if you guys have any quick tips, tricks, guidelines, or SB strategies VS any of the DTB decks, I'd love to hear them. I have plenty of experience against most of those decks, but we all pilot our lists a little differently, and nobody plays stuff like UWR Delver around here so that matchup is a mystery to me. I'm looking to offer 1-3 gameplans VS each DTB, so feel free to disagree with each other.

Thoughts?

[Zombie]

Yeah, the hand was something else. At first I was "wtf no elves this hand is..." Then I saw the line. It could've fallen to one Therapy. Didn't matter. That hand just had to be kept.

[fisharu]

I'd like to ask you guys about the legend rule changes. I may have missed it earlier in the thread and if I'm treading old ground I apologize.

Since you can chain a t2 cradle into t3 cradle and quickly ramp your mana with the new Legend Rule should we be running 4 Cradles?

I'm thinking the average setup is 3 cradle and a crop, but 4 cradle and no crop might be better? I'm testing the hypothesis now, but I was curious as to how you all feel about maxing out Cradles. Thanks.

[Dice_Box]

I'd like to ask you guys about the legend rule changes. I may have missed it earlier in the thread and if I'm treading old ground I apologize.

Since you can chain a t2 cradle into t3 cradle and quickly ramp your mana with the new Legend Rule should we be running 4 Cradles?

I'm thinking the average setup is 3 cradle and a crop, but 4 cradle and no crop might be better? I'm testing the hypothesis now, but I was curious as to how you all feel about maxing out Cradles. Thanks.
Both lists will have their merits, Crop lets you find other things like mana fixers and Dryad, it also is helpful if your not made of money. I am sure there are other reasons for it too, the card is strong. But 4 Cradle I think will be the way to go. I ordered a 4th and got it for 100, so I am smiling. When that comes my Rotation is coming out and it is going in. I think its time to run 4, but also make sure you have enough non cradle land to keep your deck flowing off the starting hand. Don't run a 15 mana setup with 4 cradles.

[Zombie]

Yeah, any Cradle past 3 will have to take a spell slot. Otherwise you just get too many unkeepable hands. (3 already result in a lot of these).

Any tips on how to kill D&T? I'm just lost as to how to win vs. them, even though it's supposed to be heavily in our favour.

[MD.Ghost]

Any tips on how to kill D&T? I'm just lost as to how to win vs. them, even though it's supposed to be heavily in our favour.

Natural Order - Progenitus

Normally D&T has very slow plays (compared to us), you have a couple of turns, until stoneforge + equiped jitte matters.

Don´t keep hands which aren´t good vs strong manadenial (waste+port and a little bit thalia).

Manadenial, Jitte and Ethersworn are the only things you have to worry about, for the last two Viridian Shaman is our best answer (also kills Revoker and Vial). So you need speed and/or viridian combo and/or NO Progenitus.

I would bring in:
+1 NO
+1 Progenitus
+2 A.Decay (enough removal with V.Shaman and Q.Pridemage)
+1 Viridian Shaman (only Pridemage Maindeck)

-2 Heritage Druid (play 2 bircholore main)
-1 Ruric (4 Karkas againt him)
-1 Quirion (play 4 maindeck)
-1 Scavenging Ooze (you don´t need it vs D&T with mother of runes and crusader)

My current Build has 3 Cradles and 1 Rotation. Crop Rotation is strong enough vs Waste+Port Plans, so keep it in.

[Zombie]

http://deckstats.net/decks/368/22710-combo-elves

For this:

+1 NO
+1 Progenitus
+2 Decay
+1 O-Ring

-1 Teeg
-1 Craterhoof
-1 Heritage
-1 Quirion
-1 Llanowar Elves

[Kayradis]

So, after a fair amount of testing and tweaking, I do believe I hold a pretty good list.

1 x Llanowar Elves
1 x Priest Of Titania
1 x Ruric Thar, The Unbowed
1 x Viridian Shaman (Might be swapped for Viridian Zealot since it also hits enchantments) [<-Discussion?]
2 x Quirion Ranger
2 x Cratherhoof Behemoth
3 x Birchlore Ranger
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Nettle Sentinel
4 x Heritage Druid
4 x Elvish Visionary
4 x Wirewood Symbiote

1 x Dryad Arbor
2 x Bayou
1 x Savannah
1 x Tropical Island
2 x Forest
3 x Windswepth Heath
3 x Verdant Catacombs
1 x Misty Rainforest
3 x Gaea's Cradle

1 x Crop Rotation
3 x Natural Order
4 x Green Sun's Zenith
4 x Glimpse Of Nature

SB
1 x Flutterstorm
2 x Mindbreak Trap
1 x Gaddock Teeg
1 x Karakas
4 x Cabal Therapy
1 x Progenitus
1 x Natural Order
1 x Scavenging Ooze
2 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Qasali Pridemage

Went 1-3 yesterday at a 100% proxies allowed tournament(Needed to test)
Lost 1-2 vs 1-Land-Belcher based of the fact that I couldn't draw a single land
Lost 1-2 vs RUG, Ruric was a beast. Lost of the fact that he slammed 2 Rough//Tumble in G3
Won 2-0 vs Affinity, Ruric into Hoof FTW
Lost 0-2 vs ANT

Overall? I don't think I misplayed.

M1-G3 against 1-Land Belcher, kept a no lander w/ Cabal Therapy and Mindbreak trap. Was I too greedy? I do believe against a deck like that you need to be flexible in your lines of play.
M2-I played around Stifle/Daze a lot. Maybe I could have been more aggressive. Before it started, I played a lot against RUG and crushed him every time. My bet is that matchup is quite draw-dependant. T2 NO->Ruric will stop them. No matter what.
M3-Affinity can't do nothing againts Wirewood Symbiote/Viridian Shaman. I was bouncing him to play him twice a turn. Destroyed his board 2 permanents at the time.
M4-What can you do against T2 combos? Board and mull? Yeah....Until he T1 Duress, T2 Duress then combo...

I don't know if the second Hoof is that great to be honest. I played for a while with a singleton, and could Voralz take the place of the second Hoof? I mean, in the grindy matchups, the +1/+1 counters on creatures could be quite a beatdown. Just an idea I'm throwing there. He's on-color with our manabase, still triggers Glimpse,Nettle and friends, and allows us a greater use of our graveyard. Scavenging a Dryad Arbor for 0 or a Nettle Sentinel for 1 is not a bad idea. He's also resilient to removal (Supreme Verdict, Bolt, etc...). He is kind of anti-synergic with DRS, but I'm still a strong believer that Elves is a grindy deck that can turn into a combo deck if the pieces are in your hands. I might also get rid of the Ooze in the SB to jam a third Abrupt Decay in the SB.

Big tournament is Saturday. I don't know, maybe there will be a stream of it? Ill talk to the shop owner see if we can set it up. Ill keep you posted!

[Zombie]

I don't understand the Titania.
3 NO targets main is too many IMHO, 2 Hoof or 1 Hoof, 1 Ruric.
Mindbreak Trap is a bad card. Thorn/Thalia stops combo from setting up AND impedes going off. Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce can also be used for that in a pinch, especially after they've gotten Therapied and really help kill them in the combo turn. Trap just sits there hoping they walk into it.
Resistors and one-mana counters can also have applications in other matchups.

Why the hell are you running Karakas with one Crop Rotation?
I'd rather replace Pridemage with Zealot than Shaman with Zealot. Besides, you want at least one anti-artifact dude that isn't boned by Cursed Totem.

[Alexeezay]

I don't understand the 1-off flusterstorm. And for that you got to play the Tropical...I think IF you go with the blue splash play 3-4 flusterstorm/spell pierce and maybe a Beck//Call.
IMO it's not worth it anyway and the flusterstorms/mindbreak traps could easily be Thoughtseize.
Also, I would play either Ruric Thar OR Gaddock Teeg, not both post-board. I think Gaddock Teeg isn't worth it anymore if the goal is to NO for the win or Ruric after having hindered them with Discard(combo matchup).

[andrebonotto]

(...)

Any tips on how to kill D&T? I'm just lost as to how to win vs. them, even though it's supposed to be heavily in our favour.

In the last tournament I went to, I faced a D&T player.

G1 took us about 35 min., and was grindy as hell. Their mana denial really keeps it dificult for you to NO>Behemoth and still have untapped creatures to swing with. Also, a surprise Aven Mindcensor wrecked my plan:

he Ports my land at my upkeep > I Crop Rotation it to find a Cradle > he Mindcensors me, I find no land, and I end up with mana scarcity for the rest of the game (he had Port + Thalia; my GSZs were dead, and so was NO).

Aven Mindcensor hinders: Fetch-lands, Crop Rotation, GSZ, NO. Watch out for it.

Also, Flickerwisping your Heritage Druid before you combo hurts and generally "wastes" a Glimpse (or at least weakens it a lot).

Only when I was at very low life, and managed to get critical mass of mana elfs, was that I could combo Glimpse and win with Behemoth. (Had I passed the turn, I would be dead).

On G2, despite I had a T2-3 NO>Progenitus, I almost lost the game!

He got an early Batterskull that was gaining important life and, with his other creatures, it was going to out-race my Prog! Only a timely Wirewood Symbiote + elf secured my win, in negating his Batterskull's lifelink.

So, play tight and keep a really wide-open eye for their tricks, because they are good at playing at instant speed to disrupt you (after all, D&T is made for it, right?)

[Kayradis]

Mindbreak Trap is a bad card. Thorn/Thalia stops combo from setting up AND impedes going off. Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce can also be used for that in a pinch, especially after they've gotten Therapied and really help kill them in the combo turn. Trap just sits there hoping they walk into it.


So, how do you stop Turn 1 Combo decks? I still see SB choices as meta-based decisions.
I know there will be at least minimum 2-3 T1/T2 Combo decks running.
Thorn was originally in my SB, but got cut for Karakas. Im expecting Sneak and Show as well. Karakas is for that matchup.

I understand your choices, but unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world and perfect hands are too rare. Against Combo, I just go for the beatdown plan and keep reactive cards if they go off.

[Zombie]

I don't. Them's the beats. But even TES and Tin Fins are more T2 decks than T1 decks, and TES's T1's are often "bunch of Goblins, go" which can still be defended against. Trying to beat Belcher-style decks is just not worth it. They lose to themselves. Trap is really only great on Turn 0. If you dislike 2-mana disruption pieces (which is understandable), I'd much rather run 3 Flusterstorms/Spell Pierces than Mindbreak Traps. Those come online T1 and have utility in a much greater variety of situations/decks and longer into the game than Trap does.

[andrebonotto]

I'm probably playing again on a tournament this weekend, and I'm willing to give Ruric Thar, the Unbowed a try.

So I ask those of you who are playing it:


How is your experience to it, regarding having issues to cast it in case you draw it before NO (without having GSZ/Birchlore at hand)?

Does it happen often? Does it happen at all?

I see that some of you are replacing Quirion Ranger #4 (and #3) for Birchlore Rangers #2 (and #3).

Besides it, do any of you run a Taiga over Bayou #2, to avoid these potential issues, or is it not worth the trouble?

[Koby]

So, how do you stop Turn 1 Combo decks?

You don't. Trying to do so would really warp the sideboard with useless cards. Remember that this is Legacy and SB cards are at a premium. Furthermore, no single deck has the ability to win every matchup. Playing Elves means you're vulnerable to faster combo deck. This is well known. The SB is built under the assumption that Combo decks will not go off on turn 1, and allow us time to fire off a discard spell and/or play 2 mana hate-bears/resistors.

You would be better served by playing Flusterstorm/Pierce (but these are a bit dubious), Silence (which has much better utility IMO), or additional discard (Thoughtseize/Duress).

[Zombie]

Therapy+Silence sounds oddly... lucrative.

[TsumiBand]

Therapy+Silence sounds oddly... lucrative.

It kinda does. Therapy happens to work nicely with Wirewood Herald though I do not know how truly useful that guy is without more ways to toss him in the bin.

[igri_is_a_bk]

It kinda does. Therapy happens to work nicely with Wirewood Herald though I do not know how truly useful that guy is without more ways to toss him in the bin.

We're not about to add him to the mb just because he interacts nicely with one of our sb cards. And he's certainly not good enough for a sb slot. It's just not meant to be. Visionary already replaces itself in your hand and it can find your business spells.

I briefly played with 4 Therapy and 2 or 3 Silence and it was oftentimes difficult to get black and white mana during the first two turns - when you really need them. I quickly went to additional discard instead of Silence so I could fetch Bayou more usefully.


Their decks are still constrained by 4 Infernal Tutor and 4 LED. Brainstorm/Ponder doesn't change that math. The choke point is their tutoring ability (4-7 tutors, 8 cantrips) not their mana (4 LED 4 Lotus Petal 4 Dark Ritual 3-4 other rituals).

Definitely this is true, but their tutors aren't nearly as scary in the first couple turns without LED mana. I've found it puts them back enough so you can find Teeg. I'll keep at it some more. A big reason is the fact that I always just guess between Wish and Tutor - whereas LED is clearly the best at what it does.

[nudon]

@Zombie: I would recommend not boarding in o-ring for llanowar against D&T. Missing that t1 mana dork gives the opponent time to find aven mindcensor/leonin arbiter, which shuts off NO->progenitus. Also, it confines us to 2 colors instead of 3 (useful against their mana denial).

@Igri: Thanks for the insight on silence. For these same reasons, the blue splash isn't so great either. However, the only problem with adding duress/thoughtseize is more vulnerability to leyline of sanctity. I'll usually call LED too in most cases. Sometimes the opponent will be smart and play LED before being able to go off. In these instances, then I'll name tutor.

[Koby]

Definitely this is true, but their tutors aren't nearly as scary in the first couple turns without LED mana. I've found it puts them back enough so you can find Teeg. I'll keep at it some more. A big reason is the fact that I always just guess between Wish and Tutor - whereas LED is clearly the best at what it does.

While this is true, they cannot go off with a single LED regardless. Cabal and Dark Rituals are just as analogous to Tutor/Wish. It's a guessing same no matter which combination they have.

[Lemnear]

While this is true, they cannot go off with a single LED regardless. Cabal and Dark Rituals are just as analogous to Tutor/Wish. It's a guessing same no matter which combination they have.

T1 Therapy for Infernal instead of LED is pointless because the TES/ANT/TNT needs the LED to turn on the Infernal during the first 2 turns 90% of the time (with additional cantrips, Silence and Shit often blocking hellbent otherwise).

You have no idea how many games i won on the back of that flaw in theory

[trevaftw]

Still working on getting 2x more cradles and 2 more NO before SCG Minn so this is the list I played last night at weekly Legacy:

Creatures - 32
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Regal Force

Spells - 12
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Natural Order
2 Crop Rotation

Lands - 16
8 Fetches
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard - 15
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Dryad Militant
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ruric Thar

Round 1 - Show and Tell (loss, 0-2)
This against someone who I know typically plays this or enchantress so depending on his first turn i would know what he was playing.After he won the roll he decided to play first and lead off with a volcanic island followed by preordain so I knew he was on SnT and then passed the turn. This being game 1 I knew it wouldn't go well since next turn he dropped Ancient Tomb,Show and tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. After this he passed and I drew for the turn. I really didn't have anything to go off with and I had less than 6 permanents so I just scooped and went to game 2.

In: 4 Cabal Therapy, 2 Krosan Grip, 1 Ruric Thar
Out: 3 Wirewood Symbiote, 3 Elvish Visionary, 1 Viridian Shaman
Thoughts - Since he was going to win on the early turns Wirewood Symbiote and Elvish Visionary were too slow and Viridian Shaman was a dead card.

Since I lost I started and opening my hand I saw Forest, Deathrite Shaman, Cabal Therapy, and some other creatures. Don't recall exactly what else there was but it seemed good enough with the discard to get me a couple extra turns (In hindsight with no way of having to actually cast the Cabal Therapy turn one I think I should have mulliganed). I lead off with Forest, Deathrite Shaman, go. He then plays and island, leads with Preordain again, and passes. I untap and luckily draw a fetchland and get a Bayou and proceed to cast Cabal Therapy. It resolves and I name Show and tell and got one and saw 3 lands, 1 Griselbrand, 1 Sneak Attack, 1 Ponder. After this I passed I consider if I should flashback Cabal Therapy and what is the most relevant:
1 Griselbrand - A win condition
1 Sneak Attack - a way to put down his win condition
1 Ponder - a way to find a either
I decided on Griselbrand since he could play Sneak Attack eventually with his land hand and this would then force him to use his Ponder to find a win condition. (Was this the right card to take?). He did end up finding a win condition before I could go off and so I lost.


Round 2 - BG Veteran Explorer (Win, 2-0)
The elf lords treated me much better this game with a turn 3 Natural Order for Craterhoof Behemoth and 30+ damage with trample.

In: 2 Krosan Grip, 1 Ruric Thar, 1 Bojuka Bog
Out: 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Nettle Sentinel, 1 Heritage Druid, 1 Birchlore Rangers
Thoughts - He plays Recurring Nightmare main and Engineered Plague side so I brought in Krosan Grip, Ruric Thar because he had more spells than creatures, and Bojuka Bog against Recurring Nightmare and Cabal Therapy. Since I didn't need to be as explosive I sided out the combo enablers rather than the secondary draw engine.

Game 2 he started with Veteran Explorer and I lead with fetch, Nettle Sentinel, go. He then proceeded to play two Cabal Therapy and flashback one of them and tore my hand apart. Luckily, I drew an elvish visionary the next turn and off of that I drew a Wirewood Symbiote and proceeded to rebuild my hand and win off of Ruric Thar beats.


Round 3 - Budget Monoblack Control (Win, 2-0)
There really isn't much to say about this. He did have discard and some removal, but I was just ab'e to go off before he could effectively do anything.

[lochlan]

T1 Therapy for Infernal instead of LED is pointless because the TES/ANT/TNT needs the LED to turn on the Infernal during the first 2 turns 90% of the time (with additional cantrips, Silence and Shit often blocking hellbent otherwise).

100% agree. After turn 1 it's less clear, since most decent storm players will play out their artifact mana (or at least their LED) in the face of opposing discard.

[Koby]

T1 Therapy for Infernal instead of LED is pointless because the TES/ANT/TNT needs the LED to turn on the Infernal during the first 2 turns 90% of the time (with additional cantrips, Silence and Shit often blocking hellbent otherwise).

You have no idea how many games i won on the back of that flaw in theory

I don't follow.

It's turn 1 for Elves on the play. Elves has access to additional creatures in hand and a Cabal Therapy. One connection with Therapy is enough to get to turn two. Combo has a turn 1 kill which likely includes both LED and Infernal Tutor. (Let's assume it's ANT for simplicity). Naming either IT or LED will break up the combo. Where is the flaw in naming IT here?

Obviously, against TES/TNT things get fuzzy because of a higher concentration and variety of tutors.

[Lemnear]

I don't follow.

It's turn 1 for Elves on the play. Elves has access to additional creatures in hand and a Cabal Therapy. One connection with Therapy is enough to get to turn two. Combo has a turn 1 kill which likely includes both LED and Infernal Tutor. (Let's assume it's ANT for simplicity). Naming either IT or LED will break up the combo. Where is the flaw in naming IT here?

Obviously, against TES/TNT things get fuzzy because of a higher concentration and variety of tutors.

If you Name Infernal you have a less than 50% Chance to stop a T1 combo in hand because the Storm Pilot can Hold Infernal, Wish or diggin spells like Ponder to gain access to the primer 2. If you strip the combo player from his strongest accelerant, which is moreover the likely only method to gain hellbent in a reasonable timeframe, it's almost given that the combo guy like me needs TURNS to replace that +3 mana of LED.

The math for lethal turn 1 is broke Down to LED + Infernal, LED + Wish and Ritual/Rite + Wish in a majority of cases. Taking those 3 combinations into account, naming Infernal doesn't make Sense. As a second step in thought you have to consider that the effect of LED is irreplacable unlike the Infernal/Wish which is a 8-off and the odds of gaining access to additional copies (cantrippin, topdeck) are much higher than +3 mana (and/or hellbent) with a Single draw/cantrip

For ANT the math is easy as you mentioned because it completely lacks the flexibility of Wish. For UBr ANT it doesn't matter that much if you name Infernal or LED, but this subtype of Storm will give you a Second turn in 97% of all cases regardless. So the question to either play an elf or a Therapy is a non-topic.

[andrebonotto]

Hello guys,

Here’s a report from a tournament that took place yesterday.


I played Matt Nass’ list with the following modifications:



MD:
-2 Fetch land / +1 Forest, +1 Dryad Arbor
-1 Priest of Titania / +1 Scavenging Ooze (there’s always Burn, UR Delver and RUG Delver on my LGS)
-1 Regal Force / +1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed (for testings purposes, as I feel he could do some damage on my metagame)
-2 Quirion Ranger / + 2 Birchlore Rangers (to support Ruric Thar better)

SB:
-2 Mindbreak Trap / +2 Duress
-1 Cabal Therapy / +1 Thorn of Amethyst
-1 Qasali Pridemage / +1 Harmonic Sliver
-1 Sylvan Library / +1 Viridian Shaman
-1 Dryad Arbor / +1 Scavenging Ooze


The matches were:



R1: vs. "Show and Tell" = 2 x 0
R2: vs. "Enchantress" = 2 x 0
R3: vs. “RUG Delver” = 0 x 2
R4: vs. “Rw Burn” = 1 x 2
R5: vs. “ANT” = 2 x 0



=====================

Here's a follow up on the matches:

>>> ROUND 1: vs. "Show and Tell" = 2 x 0

G1: (I already suspect he plays SnT, and I’m on the play). Me: some elves. He: some cantrips. On T3 I start a mini-combo with Glimpse and Birchlore, get 10-12 creatures and mana for NO>Behemoth, with an untapped and “unsickened” elf.

G2: I mull to 5: Fetch, Duress, DRS, GSZ, Progenitus. His T1: Sol Land, Petal > SnT > Griselbrand (vs. me: Progenitus). I Fetch> Bayou, attack him with Prog. (his life = 10) and cast Duress, seeing a Mountain (misplay! should not have Duress'ed here!). He attacks me with Grisel. (his life = 17; mine = 12). I attack him (his life = 7), Fetch for another Bayou (my life = 11), and cast DRS. He attacks me (his life = 14; mine = 4). I attack him (his life = 4), play Cradle, GSZ>Quirion Ranger. I use Bayou #1 to activate DRS once (his life = 2), then activate Quirion, bouncing this tapped Bayou #1 to untap DRS. Then I activate DRS the second time, using mana from Bayou #2 (his life = 0). *Phew*, that was close! :laugh:


>>> ROUND 2: vs. "Enchantress" = 2 x 0

G1: I almost empty my hand on T2, playing my accelerant elves. He plays an accelerant enchant, and then plays an Elephant Grass. On my T3 I’m able to NO>Behemoth, and use Cradle + some elves to pay the “Grass tax” to attack with Behemoth + 2 elves for lethal.

G2: A very long game. The turn before I’m prepared to NO>Behemoth and go for lethal, he lands a Moat (! :frown:). I change my plans and I go NO>Ruric Thar, to try to make him “lose to himself”. He has 2 Argothian Enchantresses in play, and lands a Confinement (his life = 11), and with both draws on stack, I Decay his Confinement (my life = 13). We play Draw-go for too many turns - me trying to find Harmonic Sliver (and gathering creatures for a possible mini-Glimpse combo to help find it faster); him, with Mirri’s Guile in play, he's trying to find another Confinement. After I had to discard 2 Cradles (having already 1 in play and leaving the 4th at hand), I try the mini-combo (my life = 5, due to some fetches) and find no Sliver, but a GSZ. I do the math, activate DRS to gain me 2 life by eating my Dryad Arbor in GY (my life = 7), then use GSZ>Harmonic Sliver (my life = 1), break his Moat, and attack with many critters to lethal.


>>> ROUND 3: vs. “RUG Delver” = 0 x 2

G1: I don’t know what he plays. I mull to 6, with Fetch + Dryad Arbor as lands. He’s on the play, and plays a Fetch. I play Fetch and crack it > he responds cracking his own > Stifle. He then plays a Delver and flips it next turn, while I play my Forest with summoning sickness. His Insectile Aberration keeps a real clock, while he FoWs my Visionary in one turn, then FoWs #2 my Birchlore Rangers in another one. When he also gets a Goyf online, it’s game.

G2: I mull to 5, due to no-land hands. I lead with Forest>Llanowar Elves. He plays a Delver and Submerges>elf. I play it again. He flips his Delver and Submerges #2> my elf. Delver keeps attacking, and when I got to stick Llanowar Elves + DRS, he Rough / Tumbles my elves. I never got anything to recover. Such a mess!


>>> ROUND 4: vs. “Rw Burn” = 1 x 2

G1: I know what he plays, and mull a fair hand to find a Glimpse/NO hand, but I’m forced to keep five cards with neither. He burns my face and gets some critters. I got some elves and attack a few times through his tapped guys. A Symbiote-bouncing-my-blocker interaction isn’t enough to buy me the required time to survive. He ends with the precise damage he needed: Fireblast>threshold>Barbarian Ring.

G2: I keep a hand with some elves and NO. His attacking Goblin Guide reveals my secret Ruric Thar on top, and he seems very surprised and worried about it. But since I do not have Birchlore nor DRS in play/at hand, I promptly crack my fetch in play to shuffle it away, so that my NO can get it. I do it next turn, but to my surprise he has a hand full of creatures (3 Guides + 2 Hellspark Elemental). I loose some critters to some chumpblocks, fog one of his Guides with Symbiote + elf and kill one Elemental with Ruric blocking. This repetas for some turns, but eventually my attacking Ruric puts him on lethal range, and with most of his creatures dead, I win next turn.

G3: I mull to 5 and keep a hand with Fetch, Thorn, Glimpse, and 2 elves. I draw anther land and then another Thorn, so I’m able to mini-combo on T3, ending it by playing both Thorns and passing. It slows down his game, but he keeps paying 3 for his successive bolts. I attack him some times and think I stabilized the game, but the turn before I would cast NO, he gets his 4th land and is able to double Fireblast me for lethal. #$@#¨%#¨ :mad: !!!


>>> ROUND 5: vs. “ANT” = 2 x 0

G1: I suspect he’s playing Storm combo and keep a hand with Glimpse, Ruric Thar, some elves and 1-2 Fetch-lands. He seemed to keep a hand with only cantrips and discard. I start with the aggro plan and try to put him on some pressure, while gathering lands/creature cards to combo. He cantrips a lot, discards my Glimpse (the turn before I would cast it), then discard my Ruric Thar. I keep the pressure, and the aggro route + double DRS activation are enough to finish him.

G2: I keep a 6-card hand with Dryad Arbor, Fetch, Thorn, NO, and 2 elves. He mulls to 4 (good for me!). T1 I play Dryad. He cantrips. T2 I play Thorn. He draws many lands and keeps cantripping. I eventually gather both elves, Dryad, Cradle, and I’m able to NO(Dryad)>Ruric Thar. Next turn he cantrips again, finds Deathmark and cast it > Ruric (his life = 10). I attack him (his life = 8). He Pyroclasms my board. We Draw-Go for many turns. He eventually Burning Wishes > Meltdown and destroy my Thorn. We Draw-Go for some more turns, but I draw Visionary, cast it, draw Quirion Ranger and cast it (keeping in hand Duress, Cradle #2, and NO #2). On his turn he BW > IT (hellbent), cast it and pass (it was Brainstorm that he got). On my turn I cast Duress > he BS in response > I discard something random that he left in hand (and he told me later that he prepared a Past in Flames for next turn). I finally can cast safely: NO > Behemoth (his life was 7) and attack for lethal with it + an elf.


=====================


Sadly, for losing that two matches (R3 and R4), I ended up in 5th (out of 16-20 players), away from prizes, (1st place would win a Tundra; 2nd place would win a playset of Enlightened Tutors - besides the boosters), except from two Promos: Render Silent and Breaking / Entering.

That was pretty disappointing...


SOME THOUGHTS:


1) As I hoped, Ruric Thar had an effective impact on my metagame – at least against the decks which I was paired against. I think I may stick to it for some more time.

2) However, on 2 games I got Ruric stuck in hand and unable to be cast (no DRS; no Birchlore; no GSZ). Had I a Taiga maindeck, I would be able to cast it, for in both situations I had a fetch-land available (one of these times was against RUG, and I also had a Cradle available, to make it easy to hardcast it. I think it would have made a difference there). I’m thinking about cutting something to squeeze a Taiga in. Maybe Bayou #2, but I’m really not sure. What do you guys think?

3) Also, on the UR / RUG Delver MUs. How the hell do you play it, guys? What hands do you keep? What are your plans against those? I just don't know what I do on these, but I never am able to win! Or it happens that they always have the counterspells for my NO/Glimpse; or they always have the "hate for my mana" (Burn/Lavamancer for my elves / Wasteland or Stifle for my non-basics) + a flying Delver keeping my under pressure. Not the mention my no-lands hands that force me to mull and start behind. I need some serious help here...




That’s it. Thanks for the reading, and I would appreciate any feedback.

Sincerely,

- André

[MD.Ghost]

1) As I hoped, Ruric Thar had an effective impact on my metagame – at least against the decks which I was paired against. I think I may stick to it for some more time.

2) However, on 2 games I got Ruric stuck in hand and unable to be cast (no DRS; no Birchlore; no GSZ). Had I a Taiga maindeck, I would be able to cast it, for in both situations I had a fetch-land available (one of these times was against RUG, and I also had a Cradle available, to make it easy to hardcast it. I think it would have made a difference there). I’m thinking about cutting something to squeeze a Taiga in. Maybe Bayou #2, but I’m really not sure. What do you guys think?

3) Also, on the UR / RUG Delver MUs. How the hell do you play it, guys? What hands do you keep? What are your plans against those? I just don't know what I do on these, but I never am able to win! Or it happens that they always have the counterspells for my NO/Glimpse; or they always have the "hate for my mana" (Burn/Lavamancer for my elves / Wasteland or Stifle for my non-basics) + a flying Delver keeping my under pressure. Not the mention my no-lands hands that force me to mull and start behind. I need some serious help here...


thanks for the report!

1) good - i like the Ogre as a maindeck choice

2) i play one taiga (and also 2 bayous, 1 savannah) as a fetch target to get ruric online without specific elves (bircholore/deathrite)

3) against RUG it is a 50:50 very draw dependent matchup, if they have waste, stifle, removal and clock you lose against perfect tempo hands, if you have enough pressure (2x glimpse, or 1 NO+1 Glimpse etc.), Deathrites, Ooze, Bojuka Bog, Ruric etc. you win. Against Wasteland + Stifle, try to get a hand with 2 lands without cradle, if you can get one basic forest online you can play, quirion ranger also helps to protect your duals or reuse lands to operate with only a few mana sources.
Abrupt Decay early delvers, against nimble you have some time until he transforms into 3/3, against gofy you can also bounce elves/arbor, both ground units also need the graveyard, Deathrites, Scavenging Ooze, Bojuka Bog (or 2nd Ooze etc.) helps to handle the swings.

Against UR Delver i would also bord in Thorns.

[chinEsE girl]

Had another good tournament today, went 5-0 at my local monthly legacy event. I played pretty much the same list that I posted a while back. I'm wondering when other people are going to figure out just how insane this deck is, but until then I'll just keep crushing people with the little green dorks. The matchups I played today were:

Junk 2-1
Sneak and Show 2-0
TES 2-1
Past in Flames storm combo 2-1
Elves 2-1

I didn't expect to play against so much combo, but cabal therapy was a gigantic beating against each and every one of them. After I got my one bad name out of the way, I tightened up and named the right stuff for the rest of the day, and it would always give me a ton of time to establish my board and then flash it back later to get more value. Honestly it was the most important card out of my sideboard today by a mile. I also had the Ruric main today and it was real sweet. Being able to T2 that guy against one of my opponents felt reeaaallll nice.

I'm pretty sad that I won't be able to make the SCG invite in Sommerset this weekend, but for anyone else who is going you should really play this deck. It's been a while since I've had the "wow, I just can't lose with this deck" feeling, but I've gotten it back with this deck. If my opponent isn't playing a faster combo than me, I just feel utterly invincible with Elves. And even if they are running something lightning quick, there are a ton of good options to side in against them, first and foremost is therapy. The only thing I really want to do with the deck moving forward is to figure out exactly what creature suite I want for NO targets main (number of hoofs, ruric and regal force yes/no) and how the sideboard is built. Other than that the deck is absurd and I'll be continuing to play it unless there's some major change to legacy.

[unemployer]

Used the Elven Battalion yesterday at a tournament here in Manila and landed in the 8th seed. All my matches were fair and got lucky but my 3 losses (including the Top8) were all from RUG Delver decks. I was having a hard time winning since they have a lot of removals and counters but it was fun nonetheless. On the list I had, I only played 17 lands (3 Cradles and 1 D.Arbor), 2 Craterhoofs (no Regal), 1 Archdruid (since I don't have Priest) and 1 Wirewood Hivemaster.
Here is the breakdown of my match ups:
R1 - Shardless BUG - 2-0 - He started all games with a mulligan and had bad hands
R2 - RUG Delver - 0-2 - One of my playtest group. He knows how to fight my elves
R3 - Junk - 2-0 - G2 he played with a deed, I had Progenitus on the board
R4 - Death and Taxes - 2-0 - (lucky game. G1 I had a GSZ and with 5 elves but no mana. Top deck, Cradle. G2, he had mindcensor, I played Nat.O and found Craterhoof on the 3rd top card)
R5 - Omni Show - 2-0 -
R6 - RUG Delver - 1-2 - An experienced player who I see play good decks. He cannot attack due to my Deathrite in play. He Brainstormed and found 1 Grafdiggers cage (while I had Nat.O in my hand) and the next card was Rough/Tumble. GG for me, thought I had the match :|
R7 - Belcher - 2-0 - G1, he kept a bad hand and I won on turn 3. G2, I had a Mindbreak trap while he played the Belcher as the 3rd spell on T1. He never recovered
Top8 - RUG Delver - 0-2 - Experienced Player + Top Tier Deck = GG. Also on a bad note, G2 gave me 8 lands including 1 Cradle in my hand and a fetchland that I just drew. From there, I had no way to win while he had 2 Goyfs (4/5), 1 Insectille and 2 Nimble Mongoose while I had 4 Elves and 1 D.Arbor (7 life)

I will post my decklist when I have time

[Kayradis]

Alright,
Played Saturday. We were expecting 25-35+ people, but only 20 showed. Still, a good afternoon followed by camping with my good buddy.

Decklist:

Lands // 17
3 x Windswepth Heath
3 x Verdant Catacombs
1 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Forest
2 x Bayou
1 x Savannah
1 x Tropical Island
1 x Dryad Arbor
3 x Gaea's Cradle

Creatures // 31
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Elvish Visionary
4 x Wirewood Symbiote
2 x Quirion Ranger
4 x Nettle Sentinel
4 x Heritage Druid
3 x Birchlore Ranger
1 x Viridian Shaman
1 x Llanowar Elves
1 x Priest Of Titania
1 x Ruric Thar, The Unbowed
1 x Cratherhoof Behemoth
1 x Ezuri, Renegade Leader

Spells // 12
4 x Glimpse Of Nature
3 x Natural Order
4 x Green Sun Zenith
1 x Crop Rotation

SB //
2 x Mindbreak Trap
1 x Flusterstorm
1 x Qasali Pridemage
4 x Cabal Therapy
3 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Scavenging Ooze
1 x Natural Order
1 x Progenitus
1 x Karakas


Rd 1 : vs MUD (Josh Pyle-Carter)

I played Josh multiple times, most of them in Rd 1 of PTQ or GPT. I know he's on either MUD or Affinity, since he has both those
deck foiled out and likes to blind his adversaries. I win the die roll.

Game 1
T1 : Fetch into Bayou (I know he doesn't run any land distruption), DRS. He goes Great Furnace, go.
T2 : Fetch into the second Bayou, Exile fetch with DRS, Birchlore Ranger, Quirion Ranger, Tap for Nettle Sentinel, Bounce Bayou, Untap DRS. He plays a second Great Furnace and pass turn.... :/
T3 : NO into Hoof, Exile Ranger, swing for lethal.

SB : -1 Glimpse, -1 Quirion Ranger, + 1 Qasali Pridemage, +1 Teeg, +1 NO, +1 Progenitus

Game 2
T1 : City of traitors into Chalice on 1. I play fetch then pass turn
T2 : Great Furnace, Grim Monolith, Grim Monolith, Goblin Welder(that's gonna be fun!). I play an Elvish Visionary, hoping to find one of my piece of hate.
T3 : He assemble a Duplicant/Welder Loop. Can't beat that.

SB : +1 Scavenging Ooze, -1 Behemoth (I raged at myself for that, you'll read later)

Game 3
This game was a long grinder and based on my notes, it went to time or close to it.
Unfortunately, I don't know why I boarded out Behemoth when my main idea was to board out Ruric Thar....that ended up costing me G3 and the first round. Well, I keep my moral high, saying that I'm here to do mistakes and not do them again in the future.

Games 1-2
Match 0-1

Round 2 vs RUG Delver(Tempo *****) (Mike Sheng)

Mike is another acquaintance of mine. I know he's on RUG since he's been on RUG since the world was world and Richard Garfield created that game. I did some testing against RUG, and I do believe it's a decend matchup both pre and post board.

Game 1
T1 : Fetch into Bayou, DRS, got Forced. Shit happens. He play a fetch then pass.
T2 : Play Forest, Birchlore ranger, pass turn. He cracks the fetch, brainstorm, miss his land drop then pass turn. Im expecting a daze back up here. Possibly a stifle as well.
T3 : Glimpse? No counter. Draw into a cradle, a crop rotation, a NO, tons of little green men. Natural Order for Ruric Thar? GG

SB : -1 Glimpse, -1 Viridian Shaman,-1 Crop Rotation, +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Ooze (Jeez, I love the new SB rules!!!)

Game 2
I know at this point he's -2 Stifle + 2 Rough//Tumble and possibly - X Daze for X Submerge ,since that's a pretty standard SB plan against elves.

I keep a pretty standard 7. Nothing to fancy, but grindy.
T1 : He plays a fetch, pass turn. Fetch, Crack, Bayou, DRS? FORCE? Shit. Again. Alright.
T2 : Delver, miss his land drop, pass turn. Fetch, crack, for Forest, GSZ = O, fetch Dryad Arbor, play birchlore. Pass Turn.
T3 : Delver doesn't flip. Miss another land drop, pass turn. Play DRS, doesnt get forced, Pass turn.
T4 : Delver still grounded, hits a land drop. Play goyf. Pass turn. Draw into NO. NO, Sac Dryad Arbor, Ruric Thar? Yep. Resolve. Pass turn.
T5 : The delver just wont flip. He lands another goyf. Pass Turn. At this point I'm like WTF. He either got shit or he's holding into something. Swing with Ruric, exile the creature from the GY, kill a Goyf. It's turning into a board stall. Im dropping green dude hoping to top deck anything and got for an alpha strike next turn. Symbiotes, Visionary, Cradle, Quirion. The whole family!
T6 : Untap, delver still a-ground. Rough//Tumble. Wipe my board except Ruric Thar, the dryad arbor I bounced, and the Deathrite I used twice in response to the Rough. Draw into GSZ. Play DRS, Dryad Arbor, GSZ = 2? Take 6 damageResolve. He got shit in his hand. Go fetch Scavenging Ooze. still have a couple mana left, ate some dork.
T7 : Nothing Happenned. The ooze ate more dorks, so now I have a 6/6 Ooze and a 6/6 Vigilance with a DRS. Should be easy eh?
Swing with the goyfs. Remove Sorcery from the GY, Block both, ate dorks with the ooze, Submerge it in response, take 6 more. Rough//Tumble. AGAIN? He takes 6 more, kill my board. Goyf dies as well. Draw into the Ooze, replay it.
T8 : Fetch, pass turn. Draw into glimpse, swing with the Ooze, pass turn.
T9 : Nothing. Like. Nothing. I draw into Nettle. At this point I have DRS, Glimpse, Nettle Sentinel and a fetch in my hand. Game ON! Glimpse? Resolve, DRS, Draw, Nettle, Draw into Birchlore, Birchlore, Draw into Nettle, Until I drew a second cradle and the hoof. GG.

Games 3-2
Match 1-1

Round 3 VS Reanimator (Unknown Fella...)

I don't have a clue about his deck. Haven't seen him play and I was too interested in my own games to care.

Game 1

T1 : I win the dice roll, Keep a solid 7. Fetch, Bayou, DRS? Force Of Will. DAMMIT! He plays Polluted delta, pass turn.
T2 : I start a chain that end nowhere, got a fair amount of green dude, enough to NO for Lethal next turn. He cracks the fetch, underground see, Entomb. Elesh Norm. Untap, swamp Reanimate? FUCK!

Game 2 was similar but with Iona on Green. I don't want to talk about it.... The fella ended up winning the tournament since nobody prepared himself against Reanimator.

Games 5-2
Match 1-2

Round 4 vs BUG Stifle-naught (Chris Misner)

Chris a friend of mine. I know he always has fun and weird brews. I know he's on bug since he borrowed the Underground seas and polluted deltas from our cardpool.

Game 1 : Chained a quick T2 Ruric Thar. That was GG
Game 2 : Grinded the hell outta me, was able to stabilize at 1 life thanks to Symbiote + Visionary and Quirion + Dryad Arbor interactions, Top decked Hoof, Played 2 cradles in 1 turn. Swun. GG. Damn. I love this deck so much.

Round 5 vs Affinity (Unknown Girl)

Im at 2-2. If Misner and Josh lose, Im jamming myself 8th seed. Top 4 are all I.D. so the rest of us have to play. My buddy Jared is first seed, so I send him on a mission to bring back some chinese food.

Game 1
T1 : She wins the dice roll, have a pretty good start of Ancient Den, Ornithopther, Mox Opal, Springleaf Drum. I fetch a bayou into DRS.
T2 : She plays a steel overlord and pass turn. Im like....Yeah!!! I draw a Cradle. I empty my hand, play Ezuri, Renegade leader, play cradle, pass turn.
T3 : She swings into my green wall of death. Overrun Ezuri and friends, block. Untap Tap cradle for 7, play another cradle, tap for 7, tap a land Overrun 3 x? Swing? GG.
Game 2
She has a super slow play. I go T3 Hoof for lethal. GG again.

Bad tie breakers, finished in 10 place.
No bad.
Got drunk after.
Way better.


End toughts?
Ruric is amazing in certain match.
Never board out Behemoth.
Reanimator is a nightmare to play against.

[andrebonotto]

thanks for the report!

1) good - i like the Ogre as a maindeck choice

2) i play one taiga (and also 2 bayous, 1 savannah) as a fetch target to get ruric online without specific elves (bircholore/deathrite)

3) against RUG it is a 50:50 very draw dependent matchup, if they have waste, stifle, removal and clock you lose against perfect tempo hands, if you have enough pressure (2x glimpse, or 1 NO+1 Glimpse etc.), Deathrites, Ooze, Bojuka Bog, Ruric etc. you win. Against Wasteland + Stifle, try to get a hand with 2 lands without cradle, if you can get one basic forest online you can play, quirion ranger also helps to protect your duals or reuse lands to operate with only a few mana sources.
Abrupt Decay early delvers, against nimble you have some time until he transforms into 3/3, against gofy you can also bounce elves/arbor, both ground units also need the graveyard, Deathrites, Scavenging Ooze, Bojuka Bog (or 2nd Ooze etc.) helps to handle the swings.

Against UR Delver i would also bord in Thorns.

Thanks for your reply.

2) What is your exact manabase playing Ruric Thar? I need to figure out what to cut for the Taiga...

3) Against RUG Delver, it seems that they just always have the answers to my cards. When I keep a hand w/ Ooze, I don't get the mana to cast it burn-proof; when I keep a hand w/ Glimpse or NO, they have plenty of counterspells for them. In general they almost always have disruption + pressure against me.
To avoid excessive mulligans on this MU, do you by any chance keep "fair hands" (a couple of lands + some random elves w/out shenanigans)?
I use to avoid them, but maybe this is setting me too far behind, due to mulliganing a lot...

Against UR Delver, yeah, the Thorns seem good.
I think I didn't have them on my SB las time I faced this deck (I guess I had Pithing Needles in their place), but I'll keep them around and maybe side this way:


+2 Thorn
+2 A.Decay
+1 S.Ooze
-1 NO
-3 E.Visionary
-1 H.Druid / D.Arbor

[andrebonotto]

Had another good tournament today, went 5-0 at my local monthly legacy event. I played pretty much the same list that I posted a while back. I'm wondering when other people are going to figure out just how insane this deck is, but until then I'll just keep crushing people with the little green dorks. The matchups I played today were:

Junk 2-1
Sneak and Show 2-0
TES 2-1
Past in Flames storm combo 2-1
Elves 2-1

I didn't expect to play against so much combo, but cabal therapy was a gigantic beating against each and every one of them. After I got my one bad name out of the way, I tightened up and named the right stuff for the rest of the day, and it would always give me a ton of time to establish my board and then flash it back later to get more value. Honestly it was the most important card out of my sideboard today by a mile. I also had the Ruric main today and it was real sweet. Being able to T2 that guy against one of my opponents felt reeaaallll nice.

I'm pretty sad that I won't be able to make the SCG invite in Sommerset this weekend, but for anyone else who is going you should really play this deck. It's been a while since I've had the "wow, I just can't lose with this deck" feeling, but I've gotten it back with this deck. If my opponent isn't playing a faster combo than me, I just feel utterly invincible with Elves. And even if they are running something lightning quick, there are a ton of good options to side in against them, first and foremost is therapy. The only thing I really want to do with the deck moving forward is to figure out exactly what creature suite I want for NO targets main (number of hoofs, ruric and regal force yes/no) and how the sideboard is built. Other than that the deck is absurd and I'll be continuing to play it unless there's some major change to legacy.

Hey, congrats for your finish!

That other Elves guy that you played against had a "tuned" deck too? If so, to what do you atribute your winning on this MU?

I never played the Elves mirror, despite sometimes finding one or two other guys playing Elves around here, but being more of budget lists...

...



Used the Elven Battalion yesterday at a tournament here in Manila and landed in the 8th seed. All my matches were fair and got lucky but my 3 losses (including the Top8) were all from RUG Delver decks. I was having a hard time winning since they have a lot of removals and counters but it was fun nonetheless. On the list I had, I only played 17 lands (3 Cradles and 1 D.Arbor), 2 Craterhoofs (no Regal), 1 Archdruid (since I don't have Priest) and 1 Wirewood Hivemaster.
Here is the breakdown of my match ups:
R1 - Shardless BUG - 2-0 - He started all games with a mulligan and had bad hands
R2 - RUG Delver - 0-2 - One of my playtest group. He knows how to fight my elves
R3 - Junk - 2-0 - G2 he played with a deed, I had Progenitus on the board
R4 - Death and Taxes - 2-0 - (lucky game. G1 I had a GSZ and with 5 elves but no mana. Top deck, Cradle. G2, he had mindcensor, I played Nat.O and found Craterhoof on the 3rd top card)
R5 - Omni Show - 2-0 -
R6 - RUG Delver - 1-2 - An experienced player who I see play good decks. He cannot attack due to my Deathrite in play. He Brainstormed and found 1 Grafdiggers cage (while I had Nat.O in my hand) and the next card was Rough/Tumble. GG for me, thought I had the match :|
R7 - Belcher - 2-0 - G1, he kept a bad hand and I won on turn 3. G2, I had a Mindbreak trap while he played the Belcher as the 3rd spell on T1. He never recovered
Top8 - RUG Delver - 0-2 - Experienced Player + Top Tier Deck = GG. Also on a bad note, G2 gave me 8 lands including 1 Cradle in my hand and a fetchland that I just drew. From there, I had no way to win while he had 2 Goyfs (4/5), 1 Insectille and 2 Nimble Mongoose while I had 4 Elves and 1 D.Arbor (7 life)

I will post my decklist when I have time


Congrats for you too!

It's been some time since I played a 7-round tournament w/ Elves, but I remember it to be very "draining". Maybe, therefore, it's "good" to be paired against Belcher on R7, so that the game doesn't take to long/be defined more quickly. What do you think?

On R4, your op. cast Mindcensor in response to your NO? Or did he already had the censor in play, and you risked casting the NO despite it?

(Also, as I posted earlier, I'm having trouble with RUG Delver too.)


Sincerely,

- André

[Dice_Box]

2) What is your exact manabase playing Ruric Thar? I need to figure out what to cut for the Taiga...
Now I am not ghost but I can tell you what I run if that helps.

2x Dryad (I do not class her as a land when I deck build. Just here for completeness)

3x Cradle
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Taiga
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Forest

When my 4th Cradle arrives it will take the place of one of my Birchlore's. Good luck.

[andrebonotto]

Now I am not ghost but I can tell you what I run if that helps.

2x Dryad (I do not class her as a land when I deck build. Just here for completeness)

3x Cradle
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Taiga
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Forest

When my 4th Cradle arrives it will take the place of one of my Birchlore's. Good luck.

Thanks!

Taking in consideration the change you plan to do (4th Cradle), I guess I could test:


-1 Birchlore R. / +1 Taiga

This way at least I do not lose Bayou #2, not hindering the MUs where I need early :b: for discard.

If I make this change, I guess I would get 19 ways of accessing :r: for Ruric Thar (1 Taiga + 8 Fetchlands + 2 Birchlore R. + 4 DRS + 4 GSZ) versus the current 11 ways (3 Birchlore R. + 4 DRS + 4 GSZ) of getting it.

This almost doubles it! Only worry is to not get mana flooded due to the higher land count. I'll have to try it for some time and see how does it goes...

Sincerely,

- André

[andrebonotto]

Alright,
Played Saturday. We were expecting 25-35+ people, but only 20 showed. Still, a good afternoon followed by camping with my good buddy.
(...)

Hey man,

Congrats for your performance, and thanks for the detailed report!

It's good to see that many reports are coming :smile:


Well, you say that IRT RUG, you "(...) believe it's a decent matchup both pre and post board". Would you discuss a little more on why you think so, as there are experiences from others that appear to be a little different?

On this MU, What are the hands that you keep and the ones that you mull? What are the plans you try to develop? When do you risk a NO/Glimpse?

For example, you say that on R2G2 you "keep a pretty standard 7. Nothing to fancy, but grindy". What kind of hand would that be?

Some more detail on this issues may greatly help.

...

Also, did you ever get to cast that lonely SB Flusterstorm?



Sincerely,

- André

[Kayradis]

Ruric Thar against RUG is a beat.
You play 1-CMC dudes, they counter it? Take 6.
Stifle my fetch? Take 6
Combat Phase? Take 6 from ruric.

He's such a great tool box card. he shuts down combo and tempo decks relying on counter magic.

IRT Standard hands
1-2 Tutor effect (GSZ/NO)
2 Lands
3 Dorks?!

[unemployer]

Congrats for you too!

It's been some time since I played a 7-round tournament w/ Elves, but I remember it to be very "draining". Maybe, therefore, it's "good" to be paired against Belcher on R7, so that the game doesn't take to long/be defined more quickly. What do you think?

On R4, your op. cast Mindcensor in response to your NO? Or did he already had the censor in play, and you risked casting the NO despite it?
- André
Belcher: The game didn't take long (around 15-20 mins I think). After the game, I had a lot of time so I ate dinner hoping I get to the top8. I wondered what happened to the Becher game on G1 but he played only a Mox Opal on T2 and thats it. When the game was over, he said he just needed an SSG to combo off. I dodged a bullet there

On DNT: On my Turn 3, I fetched and he played the mindcensor. I don't know what I was thinking but I had 2 NO at that time and 2 fetches (1 I just played). I searched for a land and the top 4 had none (I also found no significant creatures, not that it matters). I played another fetchland and found no lands as well. When he played the flickerswisp and then attacked me on the next turn (down to 7 or 8), that's when I had to gamble and play the NO. 3rd card was the Craterhoof and a total of 25 damage, he had 3 creatures, 2 Revokers and 1 Flickerwisp (which is a total of 3 toughness)

The meta that night was clearly a RUG metabase. 3 of the Top 8 were RUG decks

[chinEsE girl]

Hey, congrats for your finish!

That other Elves guy that you played against had a "tuned" deck too? If so, to what do you atribute your winning on this MU?

I never played the Elves mirror, despite sometimes finding one or two other guys playing Elves around here, but being more of budget lists...

Yeah the other Elves deck was tuned, was pretty close to my list except he only had 3 cradles while I'm playing the full 4. Honestly the mirror feels like a coin flip, where you just don't have a good way to interact game one. You just have to keep a hand with either speed or a definite combo turn hand, like say something that can NO or glimpse on turn 3.

After sideboard you need the full 4 therapy. Discard is incredibly important since its your best best to interact with their spells in hand. I almost always name natural order, since it kills the quickest and is the easiest to set up. Spells like glimpse and GSZ take more setup to be lethal, so unless you have a sick read on your opponent I would lead with therapy on NO and then flash back on another win con that you saw from the first therapy. In all honesty though the matchup is just super swingy. You both just get to vomit all your creatures onto the board and then see who puts down their crater hoof first.

[Lemnear]

Ruric Thar against RUG is a beat.
You play 1-CMC dudes, they counter it? Take 6.
Stifle my fetch? Take 6
Combat Phase? Take 6 from ruric.

He's such a great tool box card. he shuts down combo and tempo decks relying on counter magic.

IRT Standard hands
1-2 Tutor effect (GSZ/NO)
2 Lands
3 Dorks?!

Out of a recent brainstorming with Zombie:

The Problem is alone landing him before you are dead with only 3 Cradles and 3 NO against decks with FoW, Daze, Spell Pierce, Duress, Therapy, Silence and Co.

Arguing with stifled fetches or random Elves AFTER Ruric entered is nonsense. What does Ruric against Terminus, StoP, PtE, Submerge, CoV? Yes, 6 damage after you invested 2 cards and at least 5 mana for NO and an Elf. Not so impressive imo.

Even removing it with Double Lightning Bolt is only 12 damage. How many times you NO'd for Hoof and doing less than 12 damage with the following Swing?

[andrebonotto]

Ruric Thar (...)'s such a great tool box card. he shuts down combo and tempo decks relying on counter magic.

IRT Standard hands
1-2 Tutor effect (GSZ/NO)
2 Lands
3 Dorks?!

Thanks.

Yeah, I'll keep my Ruric for some time, for he seems an interesting option. So far I was able to put it in play against: a Moat-protected Enchantress; Burn; ANT. It did good.

IRT this sample hand, it's not too much different from hands that I seek/keep. But despite, I get too much disrupted. Do you always wait to cast the tutors when you are Spell Pierce-proof?



(...)
On DNT: On my Turn 3, I fetched and he played the mindcensor. (...) When he played the flickerswisp and then attacked me on the next turn (down to 7 or 8), that's when I had to gamble and play the NO. 3rd card was the Craterhoof and a total of 25 damage, he had 3 creatures, 2 Revokers and 1 Flickerwisp (which is a total of 3 toughness)
(...)

I see. Against DnT, I remember I sided in NO#4 + Prog., to try to have something "undisruptable" (Prog.). But do you think it's really a good idea, due to his Mincensors making NO/GSZ bad?



(...) he only had 3 cradles while I'm playing the full 4. Honestly the mirror feels like a coin flip, (...). You just have to keep a hand with either speed or a definite combo turn hand (...).

After sideboard you need the full 4 therapy. Discard is incredibly important since its your best best to interact with their spells in hand. I almost always name natural order, since it kills the quickest and is the easiest to set up. Spells like glimpse and GSZ take more setup to be lethal (...).


Well, I indeed expected that the speed would be a decising factor on the mirror match. Thanks for the confirmation.

But don't you think that G2, if Cabal Therapy is cast early, it would be better to first name Glimpse to it?

Because if you name NO and he doesn't have one in hand but a Glimpse, he can rapidly resolves the latter "for value", and it could dig him one NO not too unlikely.

On the other hand, if you name Glimpse and he has the NO, it still requires him some time to prepare the NO kill (i.e., to cast some creatures and awaits them lose summoning sickness), what could probably give you one turn to flashback the Therapy now naming the NO.

How does that sound?

[chinEsE girl]

Well, I indeed expected that the speed would be a decising factor on the mirror match. Thanks for the confirmation.

But don't you think that G2, if Cabal Therapy is cast early, it would be better to first name Glimpse to it?

Because if you name NO and he doesn't have one in hand but a Glimpse, he can rapidly resolves the latter "for value", and it could dig him one NO not too unlikely.

On the other hand, if you name Glimpse and he has the NO, it still requires him some time to prepare the NO kill (i.e., to cast some creatures and awaits them lose summoning sickness), what could probably give you one turn to flashback the Therapy now naming the NO.

How does that sound?

I'm not scared of a turn 2 glimpse, the times when it will kill you turn 2 are too rare for me to worry about it. Also, on turn 3, I am infinitely more scared of a NO then glimpse. Undisrupted boards will kill you with a T3 NO almost every time. Unless I did some crazy shit and got a bunch of guys down, I'll just be dead on board, and even if I do have enough toughness to survive I'll have no board against someone with a hoof plus other elves. The way I generally play my therapies is to do it the turn previous to the critical turn of the matchup. So here that means turn 3. This means I start off with a mana dork T1, then more creatures plus therapy on T2. This line of play basically means that I establish my board, have a decent amount of mana available, and I will keep my opponent from hoofing on his T3. It comes down to what I said before, NO takes the least set up to be lethal, so it becomes the most dangerous card in the matchup. If you can resolve it with even just 4 creatures in play, the other player has to sacrifice their entire board just to have a chance at staying alive.

[unemployer]

Thanks.
I see. Against DnT, I remember I sided in NO#4 + Prog., to try to have something "undisruptable" (Prog.). But do you think it's really a good idea, due to his Mincensors making NO/GSZ bad?

Both NO and GSZ are risky due to the fact you only pray good cards on the top of your library but GSZ is actually better in this scenario since it can fetch at least 20 1cc creatures and 4 Visionaries. Playing NO is paying 4 mana, sacrificing a creature and getting a 1-2cc Elf :| :cry:

Anyway, as promised, below is my decklist. Feel free to comment :)

1 birchlore rangers
1 llanowar elves
4 deathrite shaman
4 wirewood symbiote
4 quirion ranger
4 nettle sentinel
4 heritage druid
1 wirewood hivemaster
4 elvish visionary
1 elvish archdruid
1 viridian shaman
2 craterhoof behemoth

3 natural order
1 beck // call
4 green sun's zenith
4 glimpse of nature

2 wooded foothills
1 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
1 savannah
1 tropical island
3 gaea's cradle
1 dryad arbor
2 forest

sideboard:
1 gaddock teeg
4 cabal therapy
2 mindbreak trap
1 flusterstorm
2 abrupt decay
1 natural order
1 dryad arbor
1 progenitus
1 harmonic sliver
1 sylvan library

[igri_is_a_bk]

In the mirror, you name Glimpse before NO because they aren't gonna lethal you with NO before turn three unless they also have a Glimpse chain going simultaneously.

[Kayradis]

I am seriously considering follow Lemnear and making birchlore ranger a 4 of. The card is the main enable to go off turn 2 and is as effective, if not more, than a Llanowar or anything else.

Im still convinced that Ruric has a place in the MD, but I do believe the list require further testing.

[Lemnear]

I am seriously considering follow Lemnear and making birchlore ranger a 4 of. The card is the main enable to go off turn 2 and is as effective, if not more, than a Llanowar or anything else.

Im still convinced that Ruric has a place in the MD, but I do believe the list require further testing.

T1 Nettle, T2 Birchlore is a nasty Way to fire off a T2 Glimpse and cycle through your deck with 1cc doods, drop cradle for a bazillion mana and hardcast, NO, GSZ.

With Birchlore you'll be able to drop all your doods turn 2 and go nuts turn 3 out of the range of any spell pierce or Daze for any Tutor which you may cast turn 3.

I would at least test the Birchlores in the crappy slots of Llanowar, Priest and company. Add a 4th cradle if possible. You'll love it

[Mr. Froggy]

My friends keep saying that Cradle will get the banhammer -_-

Because of this I only run 3 (got them before the hype)

[Kayradis]

T1 Nettle, T2 Birchlore is a nasty Way to fire off a T2 Glimpse and cycle through your deck with 1cc doods, drop cradle for a bazillion mana and hardcast, NO, GSZ.

With Birchlore you'll be able to drop all your doods turn 2 and go nuts turn 3 out of the range of any spell pierce or Daze for any Tutor which you may cast turn 3.

I would at least test the Birchlores in the crappy slots of Llanowar, Priest and company. Add a 4th cradle if possible. You'll love it

My list currently runs the 4 Cradles. Its simply too good to be ignored. I even run Crop Rotation as a 1-off to be even more degenerate.
Right now at this point, what annoys me is my lack of good-looking birchlore rangers (read here : I only have 1 foil.....)
My main goal for the tournament last weekend was to combo off turn 2. I can totally see that happenning with 4 x Birchlore, 2-3 x Quirion.

Whats you opinion on the Crop Rotation?
I find it really neat to tap cradle for bazillion, cycle it to another cradle, tap for a bazillion, crop+sac, Cradle, Ezuri, Overrun a retarded amount of time?

[acefreemok]

Found it:
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/427147076
1 hour 23 minutes in.


... This is painful to watch, and Christian is a fool. He could have had a turn 3 Jitte game one... What the hell was he thinking?

I just watched this. She is a terrible Elves player... Does anyone know of videos of people playing the deck really well?

[Lemnear]

My list currently runs the 4 Cradles. Its simply too good to be ignored. I even run Crop Rotation as a 1-off to be even more degenerate.
Right now at this point, what annoys me is my lack of good-looking birchlore rangers (read here : I only have 1 foil.....)
My main goal for the tournament last weekend was to combo off turn 2. I can totally see that happenning with 4 x Birchlore, 2-3 x Quirion.

Whats you opinion on the Crop Rotation?
I find it really neat to tap cradle for bazillion, cycle it to another cradle, tap for a bazillion, crop+sac, Cradle, Ezuri, Overrun a retarded amount of time?

For me the testing with Rotation and 2 Regals/4 NO (all for drawing my deck in a turn without Glimpse) a while back showed me that the Cradle-Rotation is just a win-more and the results remained after my switch to 2 hoofs as the only fatties.

If you are able to drop turn 2 and 3 a Cradle it's already more mana that you can usefully invest. If you sum up the cost of ezuri and the Overrun Ability you might end up with the idea that Craterhoof does the same damage for less mana AND as haste. With GSZ for Hoof being the Top end of your manacurve at 9 mana between 4 Cradles, 4 nettles, 4 Birchlores and 4 Hertiage druids, the mana boost with crop Rotation proofed unnecessary.

[Kayradis]

For me the testing with Rotation and 2 Regals/4 NO (all for drawing my deck in a turn without Glimpse) a while back showed me that the Cradle-Rotation is just a win-more and the results remained after my switch to 2 hoofs as the only fatties.

If you are able to drop turn 2 and 3 a Cradle it's already more mana that you can usefully invest. If you sum up the cost of ezuri and the Overrun Ability you might end up with the idea that Craterhoof does the same damage for less mana AND as haste. With GSZ for Hoof being the Top end of your manacurve at 9 mana between 4 Cradles, 4 nettles, 4 Birchlores and 4 Hertiage druids, the mana boost with crop Rotation proofed unnecessary.

The idea of running Ezuri as a singleton came from my cardpool partner. I was not too fond initially of that idea, but after some testing, it proved itself to be a good alternate win-con, and the fact that he can protect other elfs from bolt/damage removal is quite useful. It's a different choice and at 3CMC screw up a little bit of our curve. I am not 100% sure if its the right choice, but I'm a strong advocate of heavy testing with him as a 1-off. He made some hands keepable when they wouldn't be in some case. I just don't like putting all my eggs in the same basket.

Give him a try.

[LeoCop 90]

T1 Nettle, T2 Birchlore is a nasty Way to fire off a T2 Glimpse and cycle through your deck with 1cc doods, drop cradle for a bazillion mana and hardcast, NO, GSZ.

It's not possible to do it unless you are running crop rotation. If you cast turn one nettle, then you need to do turn two Glimpse of nature and drop another land to play birchlore and start comboing... so if you draw a cradle you can't play it because you already made your land drop.

By the way, i like crop rotation very much : it allows to get a cradle when you already dropped a land, it finds other utility lands like dryad arbor or horizon canopy, it fuels deathrite shaman, it counters wasteland, it allows to run bojuka bog and karakas in sideboard wich i find very useful. The fact that you are down a land if you meet a counterspell on crop rotation is a big disadvantage, but anyway our opponents will likely save their counterspells for glimpse or natural order. In my opinion it's correct to run 3 cradles 2 rotations.

[andrebonotto]

I'm not scared of a turn 2 glimpse, the times when it will kill you turn 2 are too rare for me to worry about it. Also, on turn 3, I am infinitely more scared of a NO then glimpse. Undisrupted boards will kill you with a T3 NO almost every time. Unless I did some crazy shit and got a bunch of guys down, I'll just be dead on board, and even if I do have enough toughness to survive I'll have no board against someone with a hoof plus other elves. The way I generally play my therapies is to do it the turn previous to the critical turn of the matchup. So here that means turn 3. This means I start off with a mana dork T1, then more creatures plus therapy on T2. This line of play basically means that I establish my board, have a decent amount of mana available, and I will keep my opponent from hoofing on his T3. It comes down to what I said before, NO takes the least set up to be lethal, so it becomes the most dangerous card in the matchup. If you can resolve it with even just 4 creatures in play, the other player has to sacrifice their entire board just to have a chance at staying alive.

Right. I understand your reasoning, but I think I'm still inclined, as igri_is_a_bk, to first name Glimpse with Therapy.

In fact, I really don't know if it will do too much of a difference whichever one I name first, since if I cast it "the turn previous to the critical turn" (that would be my T2, if I'm on the draw; or my T3, if I'm on the play), I'll probably have an extra creature to spare to flashback it and name the other threat.



Both NO and GSZ are risky due to the fact you only pray good cards on the top of your library but GSZ is actually better in this scenario since it can fetch at least 20 1cc creatures and 4 Visionaries. Playing NO is paying 4 mana, sacrificing a creature and getting a 1-2cc Elf (...)

Agreed. But if you are in train of casting a GSZ under Mindcensor, I guess it would be better to set X=:2: if possible (may be a little more difficult if Thalia is in play too), since this way you have the chance of also getting a Visionary, should it be on the top 4 cards, right?

IRT to your list, when do you tutor for the Hivemaster? Do you only do it if you resolved Beck / Call?

I've moved away from Priest / Archdruid for some time. How does the Archdruid has been performing for you?

I'm using an Ooze on MD "flex slot", (plus one more on SB,) but sometimes I think of switching it for an Ezuri.

[spetznaz]

Played legacy at my LGS tonight and managed to go 3-1 and take 2nd place. Won round 1-3 against Burn (2-0), Maverick (2-1) and BUG Delver (2-0) and lost the final round against Bug Delver (0-2). After going 4-0 with almost the same deck a few weeks ago I feel like I wanted to try and change a few cards (MD -1 Quirion Ranger +1 Birchlore Ranger, SB -1 Thorn of the Amethyst -1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben +1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed +1 Viridian Shaman). Deck feels very strong right now and I think I am almost at the "perfect 60" for my playstyle with the deck.

2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elvves
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Priest of Titiania
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth

3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

9 "green fetch"
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest

------------------

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Natural Order
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Abrupt Decay

[unemployer]

Agreed. But if you are in train of casting a GSZ under Mindcensor, I guess it would be better to set X=:2: if possible (may be a little more difficult if Thalia is in play too), since this way you have the chance of also getting a Visionary, should it be on the top 4 cards, right?

IRT to your list, when do you tutor for the Hivemaster? Do you only do it if you resolved Beck / Call?

I've moved away from Priest / Archdruid for some time. How does the Archdruid has been performing for you?

I'm using an Ooze on MD "flex slot", (plus one more on SB,) but sometimes I think of switching it for an Ezuri.

Hivemaster is my fuel for Cradle, Craterhoof and as well as Beck/Call. As many know, Beck works differently with Glimpse. Any creature entering the battlefield will get you to draw cards so by chaining Hivemaster, I get to nut draw until I go crazy. The Hivemaster gave me enough creatures to win on the DnT matchup where I had 4 token and 5 Elves. When I topdecked the Cradle, I GSZed the Hoof. If I only had 5 Elves that time, I won't be able to GSZ the Hoof.

For the Archdruid, I tried using Priest but I usually board it out since it doesn't due much than generate mana. But with the Archdruid, an extra buff made a lot of difference if I cannot GSZ or NO for hoof.

My Flex slot is Viridian Shaman because the last meta, there were around 4-5 DnT and 3-5 Deathblade/Mavericks and Jitte is a big pain. I do not put too much graveyard hate because I have DRS and I do not focus much on the GY due to the meta. I was going to use Ezuri that time but I left it at home so I just stuck with the Shaman.

[kalkhasse]

Without testing it myself, I have to agree with Lemnear and Zombie about Ruric Thar against RUG Delver. In my experience it is the turn 1 Delver with some counters/disruption that is hard to beat and I don't think that Ruric Thar helps there since it is getting him into play that is the hard part.

In my last two tournaments I've been running one Scavenging Ooze main and been really happy with it along with another one in the sideboard. I actually won more games on the back of Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze than Craterhoof. :smile:
I tend to GSZ for Scavenging Ooze against removal-heavy decks when I don't have either one of Symbiote/Visionary or Glimpse and need action in one card. It can also catch some opponents off guard after sideboard when they are prepared for dealing with Elves-combo and have to handle Deathrite Shamans and Scavenging Oozes along with Abrupt Decay, discard and Natrual Order for Progenitus.
I have played a lot of Punishing Maverick and I like Scavenging Ooze even more in Elves because in Elves the opponent is also under the constant threat of you comboing off so they tend to let Ooze live.

My current problem in my meta is finding a better plan against Perish. When pure control decks play sweepers it is not that bad because you almost always have time to rebuild your board. But the problem comes from decks like Esper Deathblade, "Team Italia" or BW Stoneforge decks that can put on some pressure along with Perish. Does anyone have suggestions on how to handle those situations?

[Kayradis]

Don't overextend unless you have the kill.
Sorry, I don't really know how to explain it. When facing a deck that I know have the possibility to side in perish G2/G3, I try to be as conservative as possible and not overextend. Just let them deal with your threat.

Bring in progenitus? :D

[Dice_Box]

Progenitus I think is the answer against anything slower than we are that has answers to us. DnT, Goblins, Nic Fit, Deathblade, Burn. Hell if you can drop it against Merfolk too it rocks. Mosty since Thar is not that useful against Fish. Against Delver I think if you can drop Pro you are going to have it. Thar will not win you the game against Delver twice. Not if the pilot is half skilled and knows what he is doing. Basicly if the deck has creatures you don't want Thar. Against Control he is a God. OmniShow hate him, Reanimator, Miracles, Countertop, ANT... You get the point. The card is good and in the right meta it is main deck material, but make sure Pro is in your 75 somewhere.

[LeoCop 90]

Bring in progenitus? :D

Bringing in progenitus against an opponent who plays Perish is not a very smart move. Progenitus dies to Perish.

[Kayradis]

Progenitus dies to Perish.

Thanks for the hint. Didn't knew that.

[nexus blue]

Danyul,

Great job with the primer. You write some funny-ass shit man so keep bringing us tournament adventures. And great job to everyone with the input so far; as an elves lover who has taken a 2+ year break, it's been beyond awesome to return to the game and find that the only deck I have left after I intelligently sold all of my duals, Jaces and what not (name sweet legacy card), is an Elves deck that was running priests and Emrakul instead of NO and Craterhoof. Shouldn't be hard to get back into the game with that.

Now, as an elves player who previously played the above-mentioned deck, (and not a great elves pilot at that), is Emrakul no longer as powerful as he was when i left? I can see Sneak-Show still abusing him in this and other threads, which makes me think that cheating him into play 3rd turn is as good as a turn 3 attack by Craterface and two Nettles. Would love some input to this. For the record I have yet to catch up on every useful card printed since [I]Rise of the Eldrazi[I] (it's only +/- 2600 cards), so if there is some glaring card choice/metagame/new rule reason why Emrakul is less powerful, forgive me for not knowing. I don't recall seeing it mentioned in the other 17 pages of this thread, at least not "don't use Emrakul b/c of X".

I understand that cheating Emrakul is a slightly (or maybe much?) different route than NO, but fast fatties are fast fatties. Right?

Good Weed > Benadryl

[Dice_Box]

Its not that Emrakul is not powerful, it's that Craterhoof behemoth is more powerful. You can NO into a hoof turn three and over run someone with the creatures you played in the first two turns. Drawing Emrakul is not that useful unless your mid combo, drawing a NO with Hoof as a target means you likely just won the game.

Its not that you can't use Emrakul, its just that his role in the deck has been replaced by a cheaper, easier to use target that fit well in the already existing shell.

[nexus blue]

You can NO into a hoof turn three and over run someone with the creatures you played in the first two turns. Drawing Emrakul is not that useful unless your mid combo

And does this occur often enough to make it reliable? I have not goldfished this yet, but while the deck has racked up good wins and close games, it seems a very even split of Hoof-combo and a slower, grinding beatdown.

[Koby]

I understand that cheating Emrakul is a slightly (or maybe much?) different route than NO, but fast fatties are fast fatties. Right?



I am still championing Emrakul, but have been testing the NO versions just for comparison. It's about equal in my book.

[Dice_Box]

Often enough that Emrakul became a part of my trades folder and I now run two Hoof. I mean think about this. You can green sun into the decks second draw engine, (Visionary and Symbiote) draw 3 cards in a turn and then find one of the 3 or 4 NO's your running. Also it is far simpler to get 4 mana and a sacrificial lamb than it is to gain 15 in a vacuum. Another point is that if you can get the mana you can Sun into Hoof, again cheaper and also since your going to be running more than one Sun its more likely to happen.

Think about it like this:

Emrakul:
Need 15 mana
Useful mostly while comboing
Not a great top deck
Can not be tutored
Will win a game on his own while not able to be cast on his own
Gives everything "Haste"


Hoof:
Needs between 4 and 9 mana dependant on hard cast or tutor used.
Can be hard cast or tutored meaning that in most decklists there is between 7 to 10 ways to play him. (No, Hardcast, GSZ)
Needs friends to win, but is almost never cast in a vacuum


I know I am missing stuff and others will fill in the gaps, but if you drop a cradle, get some mana elves online or have a some untap effects around... well things tend to go your way. If you want I can put up my list and you can have a go?

[kalkhasse]

As LeoCop 90 said, Progenitus dies to Perish as well. I guess you could side in some discard and take their Perish first, then NO into Progenitus and then hope they don't rip another Perish in the next 3-5 turns (depending on if they have Batteskull and/or Jitte to race with). But that just seems like you would dilute the deck and make it harder to combo off.

Either way, I tried to brainstorm ways to beat Perish strait up just for fun. I started with green creatures that trump Perish, and the best I could find was Thornling. To bad he dies to Swords to Plowshares.
Another rout could be to make all your creatures indestructible but that just seems bad. A third way could be to return all your creatures from the graveyard with something like Immortal Servitude or Patriarchs Bidding but as sideboardslots are tight as they are I don't see these narrow cards finding their way into the 75.

So yeah, you are probably right. The way seems to be to not go for the aggro route and just try combo off in a single turn to make Perish not matter since it's a sorcery.
After some play testing against these types of decks I found that I would like the second forest in the deck. This is because if they Perish and then waste a dual or two you don't really have that many non-Cradle lands left besides the lone forest.

[Koby]

The card you're looking for to beat Wrath/S.Verdict/Firespout/Perish/bananas is Vengevine. It's one hell of a boss too.

[Zombie]

Another funtimes card, though a slower one, is Oversold Cemetery. Endless gas is nice in grindier games. Vengevine is still probably better though.

[kalkhasse]

Hehe! Thanks! How could I forget Vengevine. I have to try those out.

[Absolutflipz]

The card you're looking for to beat Wrath/S.Verdict/Firespout/Perish/bananas is Vengevine. It's one hell of a boss too.

Vengevine is still bad against Terminus and StP, which are common in such decks and Deathrite in the others. He also takes up a lot of sideboard slots if you're looking at the Buried Alive + Vengevine combo. If you just wanna sideboard 2-3 Vengevines to minimize slots, I'm not sure how impactful that's going to be.

Just some thoughts.

[Koby]

Vengevine is still bad against Terminus and StP, which are common in such decks and Deathrite in the others. He also takes up a lot of sideboard slots if you're looking at the Buried Alive + Vengevine combo. If you just wanna sideboard 2-3 Vengevines to minimize slots, I'm not sure how impactful that's going to be.

Just some thoughts.

That's why I didn't mention Terminus. Even then, GSZ for 5 is not unheard of (altho to be fair, this was in an older list that played more basics than the current DRS lists). Anyways, the discussion began from ways to fight Perish, and not Miracle decks. I don't think that the Miracles matchup is very favorable for Elves.

[Absolutflipz]

That's why I didn't mention Terminus. Even then, GSZ for 5 is not unheard of (altho to be fair, this was in an older list that played more basics than the current DRS lists). Anyways, the discussion began from ways to fight Perish, and not Miracle decks. I don't think that the Miracles matchup is very favorable for Elves.

Sure, understood. Miracles is one of the most unwinnable mu's in my experience.

Then, from that standpoint of Perish, I don't think it's worth sideboarding (vengevine) so specifically against a card that really isnt played all that much (relatively speaking).

I've brought it up before and been flamed, but what about planeswalkers such as Domri or Garruk Relentless - they provide C/A in grindy matchups and act as countermeasures against board wipes. They're also hard to deal with permanents that dont suffer from all the anti-creature cards that come in against us.

[trevaftw]

Garruk, Caller of Beasts

As a one of could be good against control.

[nexus blue]

Often enough that Emrakul became a part of my trades folder and I now run two Hoof.

What you're saying makes sense; there are several more ways to cast a quick NO than a quick Emrakul.

This Deathrite Shaman just seems so beastly for the format - I think someone called it a "mini-planeswalker" and I can see why.

Does the control matchup hurt us more for preventing early development or dropping our later "bombs"? Or is it totally matchup dependent in terms of randomness?

[Absolutflipz]

Garruk, Caller of Beasts

As a one of could be good against control.

I'm extremely skeptical of resolving a 6-mana walker in such mu's....and resolving at a point where it's still relevant.

[nexus blue]

I'm extremely skeptical of resolving a 6-mana walker in such mu's....and resolving at a point where it's still relevant.

Where's the original post? Ha.

But I agree 6 mana isn't hard to come by but if you have 6 to use you can be doing other things.

[Dice_Box]

Does the control matchup hurt us more for preventing early development or dropping our later "bombs"? Or is it totally matchup dependent in terms of randomness?
Depends on the deck. Something like Blade control is simple because all you have to do is tease out the counters and not let Jitte get counters. (Symbiote I love you) Something like Countertop is a different story. Once Top and Balance are down, you're dead. I find the question is more knowing what style to play. Some will try and counter our late plays but anyone that half knows elves will be all out to stop us developing a board presence. Because lets face it, dropping 5 guys in 3 turns and still having a fist full of cards is hard to answer. Simpler to just make sure the mana enablers don't hit the table to slow us down to a crawl. (One of the reasons I hate playing UR Delver.)

[Absolutflipz]

Where's the original post? Ha.

But I agree 6 mana isn't hard to come by but if you have 6 to use you can be doing other things.

Ha - I didn't want to come off too harshly (re: original post)

[nexus blue]

I need help, quick!!

Give me 100 words on why I should stop thinking about Staff of Domination. Be nice.

Thanks!

[Lemnear]

I need help, quick!!

Give me 100 words on why I should stop thinking about Staff of Domination. Be nice.

Thanks!

Because the Glimpse/NO combo build discussed here isn't running Priest of Titania or Elvish Archdruid to draw the whole Library and creating infinite mana. We don't do this because the named two Elves interact poorly with Glimpse and have summoning sickness.

[Dice_Box]

I need help, quick!!

Give me 100 words on why I should stop thinking about Staff of Domination. Be nice.

Thanks!
Because Mirror Entity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=141818) is so much more fun... (Not that its used anymore...)

[nexus blue]

This is pretty good goldfishing so far. Lots of Turn 3 wins.

[Dice_Box]

What is your list?

[Lemnear]

What is your list?

Don't feed the troll or this thread develops into the same casual crap like the last. Just a prediction

[nexus blue]

What is your list?

Not much different from the OP; gold-fishing I'm not worried about a SB. And having not played competitively in a few years I have no idea what my local meta is like now anyways.

I'm liking the 2nd Dryad Arbor and 2nd Craterhoof. The redundancy is nice - it means drawing a 'hoof doesn't mean I can't still go for the throat. Same for Dryad Arbor - being able to have 4 lands on the 3rd turn really helps with the smoothness of trying to go all-out on the 3rd turn.

I only have 3 DRS and still have 1 Regal Force that I'm testing with. Running 7 fetches for the DRS. Regal is ok, hasn't saved my bacon yet but hasn't been dead.


Don't feed the troll or this thread develops into the same casual crap like the last. Just a prediction

I agree that if every other post is a decklist with someone's take then the thread will lose the appeal of actually advancing the concept of the deck. But same for all this SB talk - nobody is playing the same meta so while it's nice to see what works for others there's always the luck factor of what you are actually matched against once the pairings are up.

I do think it's still ok to discuss card choices if it's going to be pro/con based or based on actual testing/tournaments/etc.

On a separate note from above, when I'm not beating face with a Craterhoof on the third turn I'm noticing that I am either overextending into a glimpse that doesn't work or some other pilot error. I love that this isn't easy to just plop your hand out and win.

[Lemnear]

@nexus blue

Developing the deck is a vital part of staying a contender in the metagame. For some reason the deck still develops forth and back. Atm I'm convinced that increasing the count of Birchlores and cutting Llanowars, Fyndhorns, Priests and Regal Forces is an important development to increase the speed of the deck with 4 Cradles now being a must and gaining access to a multitude of black mana for machine-gun-DRS and Cabal Therapy.

With Staff of Domination mentioned and being a former staple in combination with Priest 7 years ago, I instantly expected you having something with Priests and Archdruids in mind. Discussions about the summoning sick Budget Elves destroyed the previous thread so I feared a return of that discussion after Dice_Box asked for a list. I sorry

[Dice_Box]

Developing the deck is a vital part of staying a contender in the metagame. For some reason the deck still develops forth and back. Atm I'm convinced that increasing the count of Birchlores and cutting Llanowars, Fyndhorns, Priests and Regal Forces is an important development to increase the speed of the deck with 4 Cradles now being a must and gaining access to a multitude of black mana for machine-gun-DRS and Cabal Therapy.
I am totally on board with this, you can fire off turn two with these guys and they help the speed at other times. Also, (and this is a big one) they are much much less likely to see a counterspell than Heritage is and it can be made to combo off with.

[nexus blue]

@nexus blue

Developing the deck is a vital part of staying a contender in the metagame. For some reason the deck still develops forth and back. Atm I'm convinced that increasing the count of Birchlores and cutting Llanowars, Fyndhorns, Priests and Regal Forces is an important development to increase the speed of the deck with 4 Cradles now being a must and gaining access to a multitude of black mana for machine-gun-DRS and Cabal Therapy.

With Staff of Domination mentioned and being a former staple in combination with Priest 7 years ago, I instantly expected you having something with Priests and Archdruids in mind. Discussions about the summoning sick Budget Elves destroyed the previous thread so I feared a return of that discussion after Dice_Box asked for a list. I sorry

No worries!! I've got two lists i was running, this "new" elves and my priest-staff shiz that you mentioned above. As fun as that combo/aggro elves is to run out, it just isn't as consistent as this is ATM. Again, I'm just gold fishing so it's not the best testing, but between my last post and this i've GFed 11 games:

6 3rd turn lethal swings with hoofs. 1 of the 6 was with a mulligan, another 1 of the 6 was hardcasting a hoof with a double gaea's cradle (I am correct that i get to tap for the mana before putting one in my GY, right?). the other 4 were 3rd turn NO into hoof.
3 4th turn lethals with hoof. 1 was a NO into a hoof, one was a hardcast hoof and one was a GSZ for a hoof after I overextended on the 3rd turn with a double glimpse that fizzled.
2 5th turn lethals with hoof, both times hoof was hardcast.

In those 11 games Regal only came into play for card drawing 1 time and actually was useful for that 1 time. But I am going to try cutting it for a 3rd birchlore.

I'm running doubles of birchlore/fyndhorn/llanowar with 3 quirion, but might switch that around for 4 quirion and 3 birchlore. i like starting with either a mana dork/DRS or a GSZ into a dryad arbor for double land drops tho. Back to goldfishing with -1 RF/+1 Birchlore.

[nudon]

@nexus blue

Developing the deck is a vital part of staying a contender in the metagame. For some reason the deck still develops forth and back. Atm I'm convinced that increasing the count of Birchlores and cutting Llanowars, Fyndhorns, Priests and Regal Forces is an important development to increase the speed of the deck with 4 Cradles now being a must and gaining access to a multitude of black mana for machine-gun-DRS and Cabal Therapy.

With Staff of Domination mentioned and being a former staple in combination with Priest 7 years ago, I instantly expected you having something with Priests and Archdruids in mind. Discussions about the summoning sick Budget Elves destroyed the previous thread so I feared a return of that discussion after Dice_Box asked for a list. I sorry

I can appreciate you trying to keep the thread on track. It has already flirted with degrading back into talk of sub-optimal builds a couple times over the past few pages. There's been mention of tropical island with only a single flusterstorm in the sb, expensive planeswalkers, wirewood hivemaster, wirewood herald, etc.

In your build with 4 birchlores, wouldn't cutting 1-2 quirion rangers instead of llanowars make more sense? Quirion ranger's untap ability has added value when the creature we're untapping can generate more mana. Cutting llanowars makes this line of play less consistent. DRS is not guaranteed to be able to tap for mana twice on turn 2 while it is usually more desirable to save GSZ for later turns instead of playing it with X=0 turn 1.

In regards to regal force, how many of you have actually lost games because it was in your deck instead of the 2nd craterhoof? While the number of times I NO/GSZ for regal force has dwindled for sure with the printing of craterhoof, it still serves me well when I actually want it. It's nice to reload your hand (while maintaining the superior board position) instead of over-extending into a sweeper next turn. Every once in awhile, I also find myself only being able to GSZ for 7 instead of 8. Long story short, I like having that extra line of play available since it hasn't actually cost me any games.

[Dice_Box]

In your build with 4 birchlores, wouldn't cutting 1-2 quirion rangers instead of llanowars make more sense? Quirion ranger's untap ability has added value when the creature we're untapping can generate more mana. Cutting llanowars makes this line of play less consistent. DRS is not guaranteed to be able to tap for mana twice on turn 2 while it is usually more desirable to save GSZ for later turns instead of playing it with X=0 turn 1.I am not sure what the effect will end up being, but testing it is not going to do any harm. In my mind though the most effective time to have Llanawar is turn two dropped turn one and ready to help. All other times I find he is just a 1 drop elf with the use of feeding whatever I am trying to do at the time. Turn 3 I am not often tapping one elf for mana, I am tapping 3. For this reason I would like to at least test the Birchlores and see what comes of it. Because a Birchlore does not care what elf you dropped turn one, or if you dropped it turn one it does not care what you drop turn two. No it will just use it and make mana. Lacking that (tap) symbol really makes it a card worthy of notice because it adds some level of redundancy. Also it can act like a Mini Heritage Druid and alongside a Nettle it can win you the game turn two.


In regards to regal force, how many of you have actually lost games because it was in your deck instead of the 2nd craterhoof? While the number of times I NO/GSZ for regal force has dwindled for sure with the printing of craterhoof, it still serves me well when I actually want it. It's nice to reload your hand (while maintaining the superior board position) instead of over-extending into a sweeper next turn. Every once in awhile, I also find myself only being able to GSZ for 7 instead of 8. Long story short, I like having that extra line of play available since it hasn't actually cost me any games.No idea really. I have not run Force in a long time, I run two Hoof and dependant on who has turned up to the game night, Pro or Thar. Regal Force I think is becoming a card that has been superseded. Yes it is still useful, yes its still cool but the amount of times I have thought "I wish I had a Regal" over "I wish I had a Kill condition" have dropped 10 fold since I started running 2 Hoof.

[nudon]

I know what birchlore ranger does. My question has to do with llanowar elves vs. quirion ranger.

[Kayradis]

I have been Regal Force free for about 3 weeks now.
Never had any regrets.
Cut it. Trust me on this one.

[Dice_Box]

Well what else are you going to take out to up the number of Birchlores? If you want to run more you have to cut something. Quirion for a long time was the card cut, but will the deck now running 3 or sometimes 4 colours you really want to keep your lands safe. All the other cards cover some other part of either its own mini interactive combo or the deck wide combo. When if comes down to it, its all there is free to cut.

As to the strengths of one to the other:
Llanawar:
Pro:
Can be untapped alone to make large amounts of mana.
Is the perfect first turn drop.
Increases the deck's tempo by a turn if dropped early.

Con:
Does not have haste.


Birchlore:
Pro:
Can make any color mana
Can be used Summoning sick and can make use of sick elves
Can speed up the combo alongside Nettle Sentinel
Allows turn 2 kills
Morph means you can get around E Plague if needed or otherwise just have a bigger critter in a beatdown role

Con's:
Can not work alone
Untapping it alone does not speed up anything
Taps down more of your elves in a combo run, making planning more difficult and increasing the risk of a misplay


Lastly because I think She should be here:
Dryad Arbor:
Pro's:
Can be fetched with any number of fetches, most noticeable a turn one GSZ
Can be used with Quirion to make a sudo "Maze of Ith"
Ups the power of a Cradle
Can not be counted
Can be played around locks (Standstill comes to mind)

Cons:
A horrible opening draw
A bad top deck (Most of the time)
Takes up your land drop for the turn
Not an elf

My reason for adding Dryad is that it can take up that mana excel role too, sometime to keep in mind if you are reluctant to drop you Mana elves in the fear of limiting options. Sometimes people kind of forget that Dryad plays the same role as Llanawar.

Hope that answers your question. If not I have totally missed the point and feel free to point out how think I am. (My wife does all the time.)
Dice.

[Lemnear]

I can appreciate you trying to keep the thread on track. It has already flirted with degrading back into talk of sub-optimal builds a couple times over the past few pages. There's been mention of tropical island with only a single flusterstorm in the sb, expensive planeswalkers, wirewood hivemaster, wirewood herald, etc.

In your build with 4 birchlores, wouldn't cutting 1-2 quirion rangers instead of llanowars make more sense? Quirion ranger's untap ability has added value when the creature we're untapping can generate more mana. Cutting llanowars makes this line of play less consistent. DRS is not guaranteed to be able to tap for mana twice on turn 2 while it is usually more desirable to save GSZ for later turns instead of playing it with X=0 turn 1.

In regards to regal force, how many of you have actually lost games because it was in your deck instead of the 2nd craterhoof? While the number of times I NO/GSZ for regal force has dwindled for sure with the printing of craterhoof, it still serves me well when I actually want it. It's nice to reload your hand (while maintaining the superior board position) instead of over-extending into a sweeper next turn. Every once in awhile, I also find myself only being able to GSZ for 7 instead of 8. Long story short, I like having that extra line of play available since it hasn't actually cost me any games.

I have not found the need for Llanowar between DRS, Birchlore, Heritage and GSZ for Arbor as acceleration turn 1. Llanowar has absolutely no value past turn 2 and often past turn 1 if a Birchlore, DRS or Hertiage found it's Way into your Hand too unlike Quirion, which however remains a hated card for me outside the Budget Elves lists to untap Priest/Archdruid.

For my 2 Hoof, 4 NO Split vs. 1 Hoof, 1 Regal, 3 NO testing I just noticed that having more game ending bombs in a Field of RUG, BUG and S&T variants is preferable to fight the Discard and Stifles. I rather kill my opponents than drawin 5. I never looked back. 2 Hoofs is the Way to go. There's still not a decision of "playstyle" imo.

Back to Progress:

We can discuss how important Quirion remains (to safe Bayous from Wasteland) if a) you already run 4 Birchlores to constantly produce Black mana. The Problematic decision is given to your opponent if he Sets himself back a landdrop to deny a Single mana or not and b) how the value of the Second Arbor Decreses if we have less Quirions for the Trick to GSZ into Arbor for an additional activation of the Ranger

[Dice_Box]

I would like to say two things before we talk about this in full.

One: it's a dam good topic to start on

Two: it's worth taking note that the rangers do a few roles very well and the most important is making the deck fast.

Now with the cut of Llanowar you don't have quite the same utility there as you once did, but still the effect stands. Turn two with a ranger is almost always a good turn. You are guaranteed a land drop for the turn, you can untap for Birchlore, you still have the Maze option during their third turn. Useful against something like blade control, an uncountable defence to Jitte can not be undervalued.

I am all for running more Birchlores but I really would like to see where this topic goes, because this one seams like it will be polarising.

[nexus blue]

you still have the Maze option during their third turn.

Ok help me out: I thought that untapping a creature that is attacking does just that - basically gives it vigilance. I thought if I declare that I am attacking and turn a creature sideways, when you quirion ranger it, that doesn't mean it isn't still attacking. So which is it?

If you meant that in terms of untapping one of your own tapped creatures to block or something, please disregard.

I am going to go to 4 each of birchlore and quirion and just run 1/ea of the mana dorks and see what I see. I goldfished another 20+ games with the -1 Regal Force/+1 birchlore ranger and the consistency was similar if not slightly better. Out of those 20-odd games I only used the Regal Force 2x.

[trevaftw]

Ok help me out: I thought that untapping a creature that is attacking does just that - basically gives it vigilance. I thought if I declare that I am attacking and turn a creature sideways, when you quirion ranger it, that doesn't mean it isn't still attacking. So which is it?

If you meant that in terms of untapping one of your own tapped creatures to block or something, please disregard.

He means blocking with Dryad Arbor then bouncing it with Quirion Ranger to replay it next turn.

[nexus blue]

He means blocking with Dryad Arbor then bouncing it with Quirion Ranger to replay it next turn.

duh. lol i'm an idiot and knew that trick, don't know why i didn't think of it.......

thanks.

although i just reread that and he seems to be talking about a Maze of Ith option with a Quirion Ranger - but rangers return a forest to untap a target creature. Wirewood Symbiote allows you to return an Elf to untap a creature - is this what was meant?

[Dice_Box]

Yes that is what I meant. The difference is that you use Quirion Ranger to send back the decks "Land Creature" in the place of Symbiote if you do not have a Symbiote free. It's not ideal due to the cost each turn of your land drop, but in a pinch it works. It does have the advantage though that your land drop for the turn can't be countered thus letting you play against control with a smile on your face.

[HammafistRoob]

It works with either Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor or Wirewood Symbiote + Any elf.

You block with Arbor, then before the damage step you bounce the Arbor back to your hand with Quirion Ranger. Even if the creature you blocked had trample or lifelink, nobody gains or loses life. Untapping a creature will NOT remove it from combat if that's what you're confused about.

[Justin]

It works with either Quirion Ranger + Dryad Arbor or Wirewood Symbiote + Any elf.

You block with Arbor, then before the damage step you bounce the Arbor back to your hand with Quirion Ranger. Even if the creature you blocked had trample or lifelink, nobody gains or loses life. Untapping a creature will NOT remove it from combat if that's what you're confused about.

It's also a great way of keeping counters off your opponent's Jitte, especially if in Elves lists that don't run Viridian Shaman.

[nudon]

I have not found the need for Llanowar between DRS, Birchlore, Heritage and GSZ for Arbor as acceleration turn 1. Llanowar has absolutely no value past turn 2 and often past turn 1 if a Birchlore, DRS or Hertiage found it's Way into your Hand too unlike Quirion, which however remains a hated card for me outside the Budget Elves lists to untap Priest/Archdruid.

For my 2 Hoof, 4 NO Split vs. 1 Hoof, 1 Regal, 3 NO testing I just noticed that having more game ending bombs in a Field of RUG, BUG and S&T variants is preferable to fight the Discard and Stifles. I rather kill my opponents than drawin 5. I never looked back. 2 Hoofs is the Way to go. There's still not a decision of "playstyle" imo.

Back to Progress:

We can discuss how important Quirion remains (to safe Bayous from Wasteland) if a) you already run 4 Birchlores to constantly produce Black mana. The Problematic decision is given to your opponent if he Sets himself back a landdrop to deny a Single mana or not and b) how the value of the Second Arbor Decreses if we have less Quirions for the Trick to GSZ into Arbor for an additional activation of the Ranger

@Dicebox: This was more along the lines of what I was asking. Using Lemnear's 4 birchlore ranger build as the baseline, I wanted his take on having the full play-set of quirion rangers as opposed to a few llanowars.

@Lemnear: Have you tried 1 hoof and 1 regal along with 4 NO? That would be a fairer comparison since both configurations have the same number of bombs. If I'm interpreting correctly, it seems like you want the 2nd hoof primarily to guarantee you can end the game despite drawing/playing the 1st hoof. Is my assumption right? In regards to play-style, I guess I'm fine with potentially being forced to NO into regal every once in awhile in order to have the added flexibility of being able to NO into regal (setting up a next turn kill or dig answers for hate cards) when unable to swing for lethal.

What would you propose as alternatives to the full play-set of quirion rangers? Reducing down to 2 rangers definitely warrants the removal of the second arbor.

[lordofthepit]

You block with Arbor, then before the damage step you bounce the Arbor back to your hand with Quirion Ranger. Even if the creature you blocked had trample or lifelink, nobody gains or loses life. Untapping a creature will NOT remove it from combat if that's what you're confused about.

This can't be right, can it? They've changed combat rules too many times for me to say with certainty, but I'm pretty sure I would have heard about it.

[nudon]

This can't be right, can it? They've changed combat rules too many times for me to say with certainty, but I'm pretty sure I would have heard about it.

You're correct, the trample damage still applies.

[Lemnear]

@Dicebox: This was more along the lines of what I was asking. Using Lemnear's 4 birchlore ranger build as the baseline, I wanted his take on having the full play-set of quirion rangers as opposed to a few llanowars.

@Lemnear: Have you tried 1 hoof and 1 regal along with 4 NO? That would be a fairer comparison since both configurations have the same number of bombs. If I'm interpreting correctly, it seems like you want the 2nd hoof primarily to guarantee you can end the game despite drawing/playing the 1st hoof. Is my assumption right? In regards to play-style, I guess I'm fine with potentially being forced to NO into regal every once in awhile in order to have the added flexibility of being able to NO into regal (setting up a next turn kill or dig answers for hate cards) when unable to swing for lethal.

What would you propose as alternatives to the full play-set of quirion rangers? Reducing down to 2 rangers definitely warrants the removal of the second arbor.

I'm planning for a few rounds of kitchen table magic the upcoming week and then will hand out my testing List.

I've cut all Llanowars and never looked back. I'm even about to take the next step and evaluating the correct number of Quirions atm but will give more insight next week then.

I've sure tested the 4 NO, 1 Regal, 1 Hoof variant but had to fold too many times by drawing the Hoof, rendering NO pretty dead as a win-con from this point or seeing a drawn, hardcasted Hoof countered. With a 2nd Hoof and 4 NO you are a lot less vulnerable to a bad topdeck, counters or even Stifle. Being forced to NO into a Regal just to see your board wiped by explosives/Terminus or even die because the RUG Delver opponent has one more turn to Swing and fire off Lightning Bolts or giving Storm another turn to combo is miserable and costed me too many games in the past (Mindbreak Trap is crap).

In essence the 2nd Hoof reduces backbreaking Topdecks (Hoof if you need to NO for the kill due to Limited resources, drawing Regal with an opponent holding Stifle, where a Hoof is still a 5/5 haste in races vs Delver, drawing Regal if you face Gaddock Teeg or D&T where a Hoof would end the game, etc.), adds redundancy vs. discard/counters to the deck (applying to NO and hoof itself) and possibly accelerates the kill (Double Hoof vs. Knight of the Reliquary or Batterskull is deadly no matter the lifegain/size of Blocker).

If NO for Hoof isn't deadly you can still Tutor for a Symbiote to stall vs Aggro and setuo the BFF combo to draw cards without having to run a fatty for that purpose. I've abused NO many times this Way to stay in Glimpse-combo till I had enough Bang on the field that one of the following NO's, GSZ or Craterhoofs gain a deadly dose of steroids with a delay.

[nudon]

I'm planning for a few rounds of kitchen table magic the upcoming week and then will hand out my testing List.

I've cut all Llanowars and never looked back. I'm even about to take the next step and evaluating the correct number of Quirions atm but will give more insight next week then.

I've sure tested the 4 NO, 1 Regal, 1 Hoof variant but had to fold too many times by drawing the Hoof, rendering NO pretty dead as a win-con from this point or seeing a drawn, hardcasted Hoof countered. With a 2nd Hoof and 4 NO you are a lot less vulnerable to a bad topdeck, counters or even Stifle. Being forced to NO into a Regal just to see your board wiped by explosives/Terminus or even die because the RUG Delver opponent has one more turn to Swing and fire off Lightning Bolts or giving Storm another turn to combo is miserable and costed me too many games in the past (Mindbreak Trap is crap).

In essence the 2nd Hoof reduces backbreaking Topdecks (Hoof if you need to NO for the kill due to Limited resources, drawing Regal with an opponent holding Stifle, where a Hoof is still a 5/5 haste in races vs Delver, drawing Regal if you face Gaddock Teeg or D&T where a Hoof would end the game, etc.), adds redundancy vs. discard/counters to the deck (applying to NO and hoof itself) and possibly accelerates the kill (Double Hoof vs. Knight of the Reliquary or Batterskull is deadly no matter the lifegain/size of Blocker).

If NO for Hoof isn't deadly you can still Tutor for a Symbiote to stall vs Aggro and setuo the BFF combo to draw cards without having to run a fatty for that purpose. I've abused NO many times this Way to stay in Glimpse-combo till I had enough Bang on the field that one of the following NO's, GSZ or Craterhoofs gain a deadly dose of steroids with a delay.

You've definitely sold me on cutting llanowar completely. That's a good point you bring up about craterhoof being a better top-deck against combo/tempo decks than regal due to haste. Regal might be better against control but those match-ups are generally favorable aside from miracles. I'll go ahead and test it out myself. Similar to Daniel and you, I've tried ruric thar MD and don't like it at all. I know you mentioned that you currently run full play-sets of birchlore rangers, quirion rangers, and NO. Doesn't this leave you kind of thin on the number of lands in the deck? If I'm counting right, you have 17 lands (6 of which are cradles or arbors). Is the 4th birchlore really that necessary? Having multiple heritage druids and birchlore rangers in hand isn't desirable.

[Lemnear]

You've definitely sold me on cutting llanowar completely. That's a good point you bring up about craterhoof being a better top-deck against combo/tempo decks than regal due to haste. Regal might be better against control but those match-ups are generally favorable aside from miracles. I'll go ahead and test it out myself. Similar to Daniel and you, I've tried ruric thar MD and don't like it at all. I know you mentioned that you currently run full play-sets of birchlore rangers, quirion rangers, and NO. Doesn't this leave you kind of thin on the number of lands in the deck? If I'm counting right, you have 17 lands (6 of which are cradles or arbors). Is the 4th birchlore really that necessary? Having multiple heritage druids and birchlore rangers in hand isn't desirable.

Multiple Birchlores and Heritages guara-damn-tee an insane turn 3 at least, not to talk if you have a Cradle in addition. They are all good fooder for Glimpse, NO, GSZ and have a Target on their Head for Lightning Bolt or such.

For Quirion and the Second Arbor I beg for a Bit of time to gather more data. I hate to give out several numbers and lists in a Short timeframe. :)

At my attention to MTG is divided between TRS Doomsday, Elves and TES (HotS reports), so this ol' man needs his time

[igri_is_a_bk]

I'd put money down that 4 Q. Ranger is the correct number. I am certain that Birchlore is not better than it and that has everything to do with Q. Ranger's utility, which been discussed over and over again so I don't feel like rehashing it. I mean, I fail to see the appeal in extra Birchlores. You want more of them to be better against combo or what's the point of it? Llanowar Elves and Birchlore each as 1-ofs make a lot more sense than 2 Birchlores in the best GSZ deck. You know the main reason Birchlore was added? For sideboarded games to get hasted B or W mana when you've used your land drop or want to use it for Cradle. It wasn't to draw into it naturally and it sure wasn't to fetch with GSZ on your combo turn (opposed to Heritage). Adding more Birchlores to the main doesn't look very valuable to me, especially if you're cutting an elf that is individually fantastic in Llanowar Elves. And to address something you said earlier, Lemnear, Llanowar Elves are good beyond the first couple turns against any attrition deck. You're being too optimistic if you don't think your initial mana dorks are going to die. That's how we occasionally lose to fair decks: they hinder our development. We already have an uphill battle against combo, and one or two more Birchlores doesn't change that favorably. It might slighly help, but that doesn't swing the numbers in your favor. This is just one humble man's opinion who went 5-0-1 yesterday for 1st at my LGS with my list from page 8 (-1 fetch, +1 Sylvan Library). Shameless plug.

[Lemnear]

Most decks fighting the attrition war play sweepers afaik so naming Llanowar a tool against attrition decks is strange. I've added Birchlores for the summoning sick elves to speed up the deck for early Glimpses, produce multiple Black mana per turn to machine gun DRS into your opponents face, produce colored mana for possible SB cards, and add some redundancy against removal (lesser argument).

You want to dismiss the idea because it "slightly help, but doesn't swing the numbers"? Sorry that I'm just able to provide a boost in speed and consistancy and no total gamechanger against combo.

I'm familiar with a lot of elven lists these days who place in several T8 despite of having a shitload of "cute" cards like chord of calling, Living Wish, Ezuri, Eternal Whitness, etc. The pure mass of T8 showings with different cardchoices around the core of Nettle/Hertiage/DRS/Glimpse/Visionary/Symbiote/Quirion leaves no doubt that the meta still not adjusted to fight the archtype as such regardless of the detailed choices. My focus is to keep the decks DtB Status by being a step ahead of Future Development of the other contenders.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Most decks fighting the attrition war play sweepers afaik so naming Llanowar a tool against attrition decks is strange. I've added Birchlores for the summoning sick elves to speed up the deck for early Glimpses, produce multiple Black mana per turn to machine gun DRS into your opponents face, produce colored mana for possible SB cards, and add some redundancy against removal (lesser argument).

You want to dismiss the idea because it "slightly help, but doesn't swing the numbers"? Sorry that I'm just able to provide a boost in speed and consistancy and no total gamechanger against combo.


No, most of the decks playing the attrition war do not play sweepers. The most prominent fair decks are RUG Delver and Shardless BUG by a wide margin, both of which do not. Excluding any random fringe deck you may encounter, Miracles with Terminus and some Esper Blade with a single Supreme Verdict and EE. Otherwise, it's all sideboard cards within the top 20 decks.

I'm simply stating that I do not want to remove Llanowar Elves from my deck as an option for an extra Birchlore because it drops another card that is good in your opener for something I don't desire as is. Heritage Druid is and always will be the goal with a Glimpse. If I were regularly having issues getting on Heritage's back then I'd probably want more Birchlores. We already mulligan harshly and so I'm prone to putting cards in my deck that are good if I have to mulligan. You don't know for certain that additional Birchlores are more consistent than Llanowar Elves, but you're acting like it's a fact.

edit: Doesn't Summoner's Pact improve your speed and consistency more than additional Birchlores anyways?

[Lemnear]

It played out well and because of the mulligans i want that Mini-heritage which brings the additional feat. I mentioned. I have enough BUG and RUG Opponents around running deeds and EE's.

No one questions Heritage; this discussion start to remind me off DRS vs. Noble Hierach in which people laughed at me while I was poining at DRS' flexibility Rendering it the Supreme choice..

The Chords or Vengevine or Living Wishes or shit were replacing the NO Package in those T8 decks. For me it's an indicator that the Elves-core works against the current Meta regardless the kill-Package. It's not a topic of Birchlores.

[Absolutflipz]

They perform different functions and both belong in the deck. I currently have a 3/2 split qurion/birchlore

Quirion -

-Untap effects are very important (Heritage Druid, sufficient untapped creatures to attack w/ Hoof)
-Wasteland protection
-Generating additional mana on land-light hands or just generating additional mana when untapping mana elves/dryad arbor (no including Priest as I dont think she should be played)

Birchlore -
-Color fixing for extra Deathrite B activations and ease of SB cards like Thalia, Teeg, Decay
-Additional Heritage to allow faster combo, or earlier, more valuable glimpse
-Morph for 2/2 colorless (much less relevant than other reasons)

I place a higher emphasis on the Untap effects than what Birchlore brings to the table....but anyway, what about discussion of sideboard cards and in/out decisions as opposed to agonizing over the min/maxing of Quirion and Birchlores, which I think is much less significant.

I also disagree on cutting Llanowar completely, and only playing 4x Deathrite as "mana elves" (incld. 4x Gsz = 0) if that was the idea proposed.

Re: Sideboard -- if Sylvan Library is a good c/a option in grindy matchups...is Dark Confidant a better Sylvan Library? Given 2x Bayou, 7-9fetches, Deathrite, and Birchlore, I'd say he's just as easy to cast and better than Sylvan Library.

I also feel like every sideboard should have 4-5 Discard, 2-3 Thorn Effects, 1-2 Art/Enchant, a Teeg, couple flex slots, and c/a cards. The real trouble is sideboarding correctly, which is difficult given the varied hate that comes and by the fact that sideboarding a combo deck in general is very tricky. Thoughts?

[Koby]

It's not exactly new data that Birchlore Ranger increases the speed of the deck. We can easily revert back to pure "combo" shells that operate with Summoner's Pact and Nettle Sentinel triggers to make insane Turn 2 combo turns. This however, puts more emphasis on Glimpse turns. The entire idea with adding NO was to give a second plan in case Glimpse doesn't show up. For that reason, you want at minimum:

1 Llanowar Elves
4 GSZ (into Dryad Arbor)
4 DRS (with fetchlands, hopefully 2)

as turn 1 mana plays. Quirion is best as a turn 2 play to fuel with the above nine, and used in conjunction to produce 3 mana, potentially more with Cradle as the land drop. Cutting down on this number by cutting Llanowar Elves and replacing with Birchlore doesn't achieve this speed in the early game; only so if you have Nettle Sentinel. Just like we can't have Glimpse in every game, same is true with Nettle Sentinel. I will still advocate at minimum 1 Llanowar(/Fyndhorn/Elvish Mystic whatever floats your boat) -- anything that produces unconditional mana and costs 1.

[Dice_Box]

is Dark Confidant a better Sylvan Library?
Craterhoof and Progenitus say no.


Cutting down on this number by cutting Llanowar Elves and replacing with Birchlore doesn't achieve this speed in the early game; only so if you have Nettle Sentinel. Just like we can't have Glimpse in every game, same is true with Nettle Sentinel. I will still advocate at minimum 1 Llanowar(/Fyndhorn/Elvish Mystic whatever floats your boat) -- anything that produces unconditional mana and costs 1.
No we can't have glimpse every game, but unless you get your Llanowar in turn one or two, he is a dead draw. If you are going to tutor him Dryad is a cheaper option, if your talking about drawing him naturally I think having a one off that only works in the first two turns of the game is silly.

I mean yes, one drop 1/1's with mana are great turn one and two, but do we want to fill out 6+ slots in our deck for that kind of card? I think the smoothness of not having to deal with summoning sickness, making off colours and adding more Heritage effects to the deck is an advantage worth having. Also you might underplay the morph ability, but to be honest, sometimes that very ability will win you a game.

[Absolutflipz]

Craterhoof and Progenitus say no.


No we can't have glimpse every game, but unless you get your Llanowar in turn one or two, he is a dead draw. If you are going to tutor him Dryad is a cheaper option, if your talking about drawing him naturally I think having a one off that only works in the first two turns of the game is silly.

I mean yes, one drop 1/1's with mana are great turn one and two, but do we want to fill out 6+ slots in our deck for that kind of card? I think the smoothness of not having to deal with summoning sickness, making off colours and adding more Heritage effects to the deck is an advantage worth having. Also you might underplay the morph ability, but to be honest, sometimes that very ability will win you a game.

True, I did forget the Hooves when I suggested that. I'm not on Progenitus, but yeah...

I think you're exaggerating quite a bit when you say sometimes the morph ability will win you the game....2/2 vanilla dude is not winning any normal game of legacy.

Having a turn 1 mana dork is very important, and they're hardly "dead draws after turn 1" They're fine turn 2 and equivalent to on t3 -- and beyond that they're 1cc elves.

[Dice_Box]

2/2 vanilla dude is not winning any normal game of legacy.
Pox says hi.

[Absolutflipz]

Pox says hi.

Huh? and who plays Pox?

Let's not derail this, though. 2/2 morph is a minor-relevant ability for a blocker against SoFF, having a guy live through Plague, and apparently against all the Pox players, but it's not "winning" games.

[LeoCop 90]

The only scenario in wich the morph ability can be really important is to block a creature with protection from green ( mirran crusader, sword of feast and famine). You can also block, then morph and return the birchlore to your hand with symbiote. It is also fine against engineered plague. Overall not very very useful , i'd say.

Aniway I'm really interested in the discussion about llanowar vs birchlore. At the moment i think that having a mana dork turn one is the best play our deck can do, and that's why i run 3 llanowar(1 llanowar, 1 fyndhorn, 1 mystic), 3 deathrite shaman and 4 gsz into dryad arbor. I cut one shaman to have more chances of producing more mana turn two untapping a llanowar with quirion ranger, which is not always possible with deathrite due to lack of fetches.
I will test 4 birchlore 0 llanowar as soon as i can to see how it works.


Edit: why a 2/2 should be so important against pox ?

[Dice_Box]

Huh? and who plays Pox?

Let's not derail this, though. 2/2 morph is a minor-relevant ability for a blocker against SoFF, having a guy live through Plague, and apparently against all the Pox players, but it's not "winning" games.
A 2/2 is useful against a lot of things, a 2/2 that is not an elf is useful too when Plague hits. Also against goblins you get a 2/2 that stops almost everything that (we) they have. Its not the most useful ability in the world but it can win you games. When you go into beatdown it increases the clock, when you're needing to stop bigger creatures it helps too. Again not the strongest ability in the world, maybe due to the 3 pox players locally I like it more than most, but dam is it not the most useful thing when you need it.

Edit:
Pox almost always runs E Plague. A 2/2 thats not a nameable creature type is important.

[Lobo]

It's not exactly new data that Birchlore Ranger increases the speed of the deck. We can easily revert back to pure "combo" shells that operate with Summoner's Pact and Nettle Sentinel triggers to make insane Turn 2 combo turns. This however, puts more emphasis on Glimpse turns. The entire idea with adding NO was to give a second plan in case Glimpse doesn't show up. For that reason, you want at minimum:

1 Llanowar Elves
4 GSZ (into Dryad Arbor)
4 DRS (with fetchlands, hopefully 2)

as turn 1 mana plays. Quirion is best as a turn 2 play to fuel with the above nine, and used in conjunction to produce 3 mana, potentially more with Cradle as the land drop. Cutting down on this number by cutting Llanowar Elves and replacing with Birchlore doesn't achieve this speed in the early game; only so if you have Nettle Sentinel. Just like we can't have Glimpse in every game, same is true with Nettle Sentinel. I will still advocate at minimum 1 Llanowar(/Fyndhorn/Elvish Mystic whatever floats your boat) -- anything that produces unconditional mana and costs 1.

I agree with you, Koby. The extra Birchlores only really work to our advantage turn 2 if Nettle Sentinel is in play. Quirion works to our advantage turn 2 if any of the following are in play: Fyndhorn/Llanowar, DRS, Dryad Arbor, Priest of Titania (assuming it's present); not to mention it neatly solves the problem of the one-land hand. It's true that Quirion is not so explosive as Birchlore, especially if we no longer play Priest, but as you point out the Elf deck has done better recently by diversifying and moving away from pure explosive turn 2 wins.

Last weekend I played in my LGS's weekly legacy event, and I ran the four-Birchlore build (with zero Llanowar/Fyndhorn and only three Quirion) just to see how it performed. In one game Birchlore did accelerate me on turn 2, but in another it contributed to a stall when what I really needed was a simple mana dork. So in my limited testing it's been a wash.

So I'm thinking I'll go back to four Quirions... and the more Quirions I run, the more it makes sense to run Fyndhorn/Llanowar alongside them. That puts me back where I started. I respect the advantages of the Birchlore-heavy build, but I don't prefer it.

In other news, I really need to figure out a better plan against Reanimator, my nemesis.

[Koby]

Edit:
Pox almost always runs E Plague. A 2/2 thats not a nameable creature type is important.

Is it? I was under the impression that Abrupt Decay and Harmonic Sliver are important here. Or just ignoring this matchup regardless since all of 5 people from 1997 still play it.

[Absolutflipz]

What do you all feel about sideboarding in/out Natural Order?

I feel like the general consensus is to Increase the NO plan, but I almost always fall the opposite way and sideboard out NO.

The thought being that NO is not good against (imo) RUG delver where they run Daze, Pierce, and cheap removal for our guys. The Deathblade decks run Liliana, Supreme Verdict, Meddling Mage, among other lesser hate toward NO. Maybe NO is slightly better against Shardless BUG, but even then it doesn't seem that strong or likely to work out.

Against combo like TES, ANT I think it's too slow, along with the fact that I'd want to bring in cards like Thorn/Thalia and Teeg which are horrible with NO. Sneak and Show, basically the same. Miracles is just miserable cuz NO is a decent answer to getting around Counter/Top, but at the same time they have many counterspells and wraths.

Do I have it all wrong with NO post-board? And further, in conjunction with the above, I find Progenitus underwhelming as an additional NO target to bring in for most of the same reasons.

[Dice_Box]

Is it? I was under the impression that Abrupt Decay and Harmonic Sliver are important here. Or just ignoring this matchup regardless since all of 5 people from 1997 still play it.
Granted we have answers, but that does not make the morph useless. I was not trying to sell the card on morph alone. Also that comment did make me laugh.


What do you all feel about sideboarding in/out Natural Order?

I feel like the general consensus is to Increase the NO plan, but I almost always fall the opposite way and sideboard out NO.

The thought being that NO is not good against (imo) RUG delver where they run Daze, Pierce, and cheap removal for our guys. The Deathblade decks run Liliana, Supreme Verdict, Meddling Mage, among other lesser hate toward NO. Maybe NO is slightly better against Shardless BUG, but even then it doesn't seem that strong or likely to work out.

Against combo like TES, ANT I think it's too slow, along with the fact that I'd want to bring in cards like Thorn/Thalia and Teeg which are horrible with NO. Sneak and Show, basically the same. Miracles is just miserable cuz NO is a decent answer to getting around Counter/Top, but at the same time they have many counterspells and wraths.

Do I have it all wrong with NO post-board? And further, in conjunction with the above, I find Progenitus underwhelming as an additional NO target to bring in for most of the same reasons.
I guess it depends on what target you want with the no. I personally find against SnT that NO and Thar are goddly. Granted that does not stop Gaddock from being useful but I, against these decks, tend to take out 3 Visionary and put in a NO, a NO target and Teeg.

I think the issue with the board as is though is that you want to bring in discard, so NO and therapy eating at your critters can be painful. So I guess the choice is up to you. I don't think I have the experience to have the right answer but I find that when you want that NO, you know it.

[Absolutflipz]

Granted we have answers, but that does not make the morph useless. I was not trying to sell the card on morph alone. Also that comment did make me laugh.


I guess it depends on what target you want with the no. I personally find against SnT that NO and Thar are goddly. Granted that does not stop Gaddock from being useful but I, against these decks, tend to take out 3 Visionary and put in a NO, a NO target and Teeg.

I think the issue with the board as is though is that you want to bring in discard, so NO and therapy eating at your critters can be painful. So I guess the choice is up to you. I don't think I have the experience to have the right answer but I find that when you want that NO, you know it.

I don't understand how NO and Ruric Thar are good against Sneak and Show. I don't think you're resolving the NO at any point so far ahead of where they get to cast Show and Tell or Sneak Attack, such that I doubt you get him out where they take damage using ponder, brainstorm, etc.

Then, against Show and Tell or Sneak Attack themselves, Thar is horrible as they can take 6 to play it and then Grisel./Emrakul take over. And anytime you're bringing/keeping NO while bringing in Teeg that seems pretty bad.

I'd probably: -2 Quirion, -2 Visionary, -1 Symbiote, -3 NO, +4 Discard, +1 Thalia, +2 Thorns, +1 Teeg or something close to that from my list against Sn&Sh

[Dice_Box]

..
Sorry, my mistake. When I think SnT I always think Ominshow. Sorry for that.

[Lemnear]

They perform different functions and both belong in the deck. I currently have a 3/2 split qurion/birchlore

Quirion -

-Untap effects are very important (Heritage Druid, sufficient untapped creatures to attack w/ Hoof)
-Wasteland protection
-Generating additional mana on land-light hands or just generating additional mana when untapping mana elves/dryad arbor (no including Priest as I dont think she should be played)

Birchlore -
-Color fixing for extra Deathrite B activations and ease of SB cards like Thalia, Teeg, Decay
-Additional Heritage to allow faster combo, or earlier, more valuable glimpse
-Morph for 2/2 colorless (much less relevant than other reasons)

I place a higher emphasis on the Untap effects than what Birchlore brings to the table....but anyway, what about discussion of sideboard cards and in/out decisions as opposed to agonizing over the min/maxing of Quirion and Birchlores, which I think is much less significant.

I also disagree on cutting Llanowar completely, and only playing 4x Deathrite as "mana elves" (incld. 4x Gsz = 0) if that was the idea?

The idea was to turn any elf by turn 2 into a mana elf, produce B even if your Bayou got wastelanded and most of the things already mentioned. Playing Quirion and untapping a Birchlore still adds a mana to your Pool even if you have to tap the Quirion too.

Curiosity: why did you only have 5 slots to put in Birchlores/Quirions? There must be a lot more space in the deck.

[.Ix]

At the moment i think that having a mana dork turn one is the best play our deck can do, and that's why i run 3 llanowar(1 llanowar, 1 fyndhorn, 1 mystic), 3 deathrite shaman and 4 gsz into dryad arbor. I cut one shaman to have more chances of producing more mana turn two untapping a llanowar with quirion ranger, which is not always possible with deathrite due to lack of fetches.

This is also where I'm at right now. 4 Deathrite is even worse in Deathrite mirrors where they can just deny our mana all day, and we have no removal to answer theirs. I also tested 3 Birchlore in the main. They are a hell of a lot worse than Llanowar without Nettle Sentinel in play, but they do let us go off earlier occasionally. I have not found making B or W mana to be a problem with 3 DRS, 4 Quirion (against Wasteland), and 9 fetch, so Birchlore mana fixing has not been a real thing so far.

[catmint]

I had similar concerns with deathrite. Not necessarily the opponent disruption our mana development, but also early double activations for mana with untappers might not work. Got convinced by friends and testing that 4 is correct since he has just a lot of other advantages. Besides the obvious hate-factor, in grindy games/stalling situations he is very good and he survives plague or other -1/-1 hate.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I'd probably: -2 Quirion, -2 Visionary, -1 Symbiote, -3 NO, +4 Discard, +1 Thalia, +2 Thorns, +1 Teeg or something close to that from my list against Sn&Sh

I really like my sb strategy against combo:
-3 Visionary, -1 Library, -1 Arbor, -1 V. Shaman, -1 NO, -1 Hoof
+4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg

Why take out good Elves like Quirion in the MU? Sure, they don't play Wasteland, but you're trying to get behind Heritage which Quirion will achieve easier than V. Shaman or Visionary.

Edit: And you can squeeze in Harmonic against OmniTell for another NO.

[Zombie]

I don't agree with the Visionary cut. Sure, she's usually bad, but Glimpse is worse. Therapy demands playing out your hands, Glimpse demands keeping cards (and, importantly, beaters) in your hand. Furthermore both are noncreatures, so keeping both in the deck just makes Glimpse worse. -4 Glimpse, +4 Therapy should be the standard. NO and GSZ do backbreaking things against most combo decks, and want the same thing as Therapy: Dudes on the board. This way your strategy is coherent, instead of contradictory.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I don't agree with the Visionary cut. Sure, she's usually bad, but Glimpse is worse. Therapy demands playing out your hands, Glimpse demands keeping cards (and, importantly, beaters) in your hand. Furthermore both are noncreatures, so keeping both in the deck just makes Glimpse worse. -4 Glimpse, +4 Therapy should be the standard. NO and GSZ do backbreaking things against most combo decks, and want the same thing as Therapy: Dudes on the board. This way your strategy is coherent, instead of contradictory.

I disagree with you completely. Look at the cards you take out against combo. Besides the three Visionary, none of them are complimentary to Glimpse. In other words, your Glimpse chains are very nearly as effective as before. We've all experienced when Visionary is a c-c-c-combo breaker because of the 2 mana, and you aren't likely to get on the Visionary + Symbiote train against any combo deck, which makes it suspect to keep in. And since only the Glimpse half of your combo works with a Teeg in play, which is priority number one, you keep them in.

[Zombie]

Also, I want your list for context. That -1 Library line just hit me with the wtf bat.

[igri_is_a_bk]

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order
1 Sylvan Library

4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
//
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg

[Zombie]

Deck

A pretty nice list, though I think I'd cut the Rainforest and a Quirion for a second Birchlore (makes Glimpse so, so much better) and a second Forest. Never understood running just a single basic.

[Absolutflipz]

The idea was to turn any elf by turn 2 into a mana elf, produce B even if your Bayou got wastelanded and most of the things already mentioned. Playing Quirion and untapping a Birchlore still adds a mana to your Pool even if you have to tap the Quirion too.

Curiosity: why did you only have 5 slots to put in Birchlores/Quirions? There must be a lot more space in the deck.

Well, here's the list:

3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Elvish Mystic
1x Llanowar Elves
3x Quirion Ranger
2x Birchlore Ranger
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Heritage Druid
4x Wirewood Symbiote
4x Elvish Visionary
2x Craterhoof Behemoth

4x GSZ
4x Glimpse
3x Natural Order
1x Flex (Crop Rotation, V. Shaman, Ooze, Jitte)

9x Green Fetches
2x Forest
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Gaea's Cradle

I know the 3x Deathrite will stick out, and I've gone back and forth between -1 Elvish Mystic +1 Deathrite, but I really value having a reliable mana producer (and multi-mana producer) and Deathrite doesnt always work out, while having 3 still gives plenty of game for his other abilities.


I really like my sb strategy against combo:
-3 Visionary, -1 Library, -1 Arbor, -1 V. Shaman, -1 NO, -1 Hoof
+4 Therapy, +2 Thorn, +1 Thalia, +1 Teeg

Why take out good Elves like Quirion in the MU? Sure, they don't play Wasteland, but you're trying to get behind Heritage which Quirion will achieve easier than V. Shaman or Visionary.

Edit: And you can squeeze in Harmonic against OmniTell for another NO.

This was assuming a current list with V. Shaman in the board. I would take out V. Shaman if it were in the main and leave in a Ranger. I also like keeping 2 Visionaries vs the 1 as I still think it's a great card if the game gets delayed at all as your sideboard pieces are intended to accomplish.

And when you say "trying to get behind Heritage and Quirion", I assume you mean for purposes of most-quickly comboing off, right?

I guess I can see that maybe you do want some number of NO's just to have as a possible I-win button even tho it's going to be harder to get off in time and get off in the face of your own Thorns/Thalia, and Teeg. Do the NO's really work out positively given those things?

Further, thoughts on where NO/Progenitus is very good postboard to warrant an extra NO and the Progen? Underwhelming for me, and 2 sideboard slots is pretty huge if those could be freed up. Open to hear where people have found him much better than the Hoof plan. Is it against no longer very popular Jund or Punishing Fire decks?

[Lemnear]

I'm confused how the opinions in this thread about the optimal number of DRS and mana dorks can vary so much. :/

[Absolutflipz]

I'm confused how the opinions in this thread about the optimal number of DRS and mana dorks can vary so much. :/

My first guess is to venture that everyone understands that Deathrite Shaman is such a powerful card and one of the best one drops ever printed, and an ELF, so "how can't you play 4?!?!?!" Maybe there isn't much thought given to the numbers after that.

And while playing 4x Deathrite may be the right answer, I'm not 100% convinced of it and I definitely don't agree with lists that play 4x Deathrite and less than 9 fetches.

My current playing of 3 just comes from playing matches with the deck and valuing having an extra mana dork that can produce multiple mana in a turn consistently as opposed to a 4th Deathrite given that I think the deck values such an attribute more than the B,G abilities (and yes, being a 1/2 is also relevant). Don't get me wrong, they're also amazing, and still running 3 gives you room to grind out a game with either.

[Kayradis]

4 Deathrite Shaman.

This card is what made the deck Tier 1.

[Koby]

I'm confused how the opinions in this thread about the optimal number of DRS and mana dorks can vary so much. :/

From my own past experience, if the goal is to generate the most amount of mana and emphasize Turn 3, then we should be running at minimum 8 mana dorks (or equivalent, such as GSZ for Dryad Arbor on turn 1). DRS is conditional mana, which is why I refrain from relying on it so much. So, let's do some rudimentary Hypergeometic calculations to help us determine our level of confidence.

Assuming we have an opening hand that contains at least 1 land, at least 1 mana dork, and at least one engine (Glimpse or NO). This gives us 4 "whatever" slots.

With 8 ways to get a turn 1 mana dork, we have 65.4% chance of seeing a mana dork, or about 13 out of 20 games.
With 9 ways to get a turn 1 mana dork, we have 70.0% chance of seeing a mana dork, or about 7 out of 10 games.

Is the 5% there significant?

Moreover, since we're setting the assumption with getting a land (1 of 14 turn 1 mana off land in the deck = 34%) and hitting an engine (1 of 7, or 41.6%) gives us:

[ at least 1 dork, exactly 1 land, exactly 1 engine with 7 in deck ]
8 Dorks -- 9.23% chance of getting this hand
9 Dorks -- 9.89% chance of getting this hand

[ at least 1 dork, exactly 1 land, exactly 1 engine with 8 in deck ]
8 Dorks -- 9.36% chance of getting this hand
9 Dorks -- 10.03% chance of getting this hand

Obvious this is simplified for the scenario of only 1 land and only 1 engine. The point is to demonstrate why 9 dorks is more rewarding rather than 8 dorks.

EDIT:
In case anyone wants to run their own scenario here's some pointers:

Hypergeometric function on Excel needs 5 inputs: HYPGEOM.DIST(success, sample, total in deck, deck size, cumulative=FALSE)
When you're adding more conditions, you need to multiply the probabilities.
When you're figuring out ranges, you need to add the probabilities.

Example:
Probability of 1 mana dork AND 1 land AND 1 engine = P(1 mana dork) * P(1 land) * P(1 engine)
Probability of getting between 1 to 5 mana dorks = P(1) + P(2) + P(3) + P(4) + P(5)

[danyul]

I'm really stupid. Do all those numbers mean you like 3 or 4 DRS? 0-3 Llanowar Elves? I don't math good.

[Koby]

I'm really stupid. Do all those numbers mean you like 3 or 4 DRS? 0-3 Llanowar Elves? I don't math good.

I don't differentiate between DRS or Llanowar Elf or GSZ=0. For this calculation, they are identical.
Likewise, a land could be Forest, Bayou, Savannah, or Fetchland; but not Gaea's Cradle nor Dryad Arbor. I assumed 2 Bayou, 1 Savannah, 1 Forest, 10 fetchland.

Interestingly enough, dropping 1 fetch increases the likelihood of this hand across the board; however there is roughly 0.7% increase when going from 8 to 9 dorks.

[Absolutflipz]

4 Deathrite Shaman.

This card is what made the deck Tier 1.

This is the exact type of comment I was referring to in the first couple lines of my response. There has to be further thought given (aka how many fetches makes him reliable, do I value producing multiple mana moreso than removing cards from the yard, etc..)

Deathrite Shaman is a good card and a buff to the deck. It is not the reason the deck is tier 1. I'd argue the recent success is much more largely due to the printing/discovery of Craterhoof in conjunction with NO to go along with the already strong glimpse/heritage combo.

Ah, I'll just refer to Koby as he seems to be on the same page as I am.

Edit: ha yes, Leo.

[LeoCop 90]

4 Deathrite Shaman.

This card is what made the deck Tier 1.

Deathrite Shaman contributed to it. But the deck improved so drastically because of the printing of deathrite shaman and mainly, in my opinion, cratherhoof behemoth, alongside with the fact that a good deck configuration was found considering that natural order is fantastic with behemoth.

I don't think that playing 3 or 4 deathrite shaman can influence so much the deck, but i prefer to have one more reliable mana dork instead of the 4th deathrite shaman.

Edit: it seems that me and absoluteflipz were posting the same thing in the same moment XD

[nudon]

4 Deathrite Shaman.

This card is what made the deck Tier 1.

+1. Same goes for NO->hoof. I've tested the 4 NO in the main deck and it just gives the deck another "I win" button. Sure, sometimes you'll have an awkward opener with multiple NO in hand but it makes the deck so much faster. As long as you don't over-extend against control, you'll still beat them despite the risk of getting 2 for 1.

So far in limited testing, the 4 NO, 0 llanowar, 4 quirion, 3 birchlore, 1 arbor (moved to sb to make room for more birchlores) has been about a half turn faster. For those concerned about DRS making mana, you can always cut savannah (not that I would it) and the 2nd basic for additional fetches since you're already running multiple birchlores.

[Kayradis]

I started playing Elves about a year and a half ago. Mono-G. Archdruid. Concordant Crossroad. Emrakul kill. Not really fun to be fully honest.

Since the G/B list, I don't have numbers like Koby, but the inclusion of DRS makes the deck way more fluid, provides it with resilience and also an alternate end-game by the DRS grinding the hell out of your opponent.

After a fairly good amount of testing (multiple weeks) I am convinced that the Birchlore > Llanowar/Mystic/Fyndhorn provides better and faster T2 combos/chain. I've used it multiple times against Jund as a 2/2 face-down creature.

I acknowledge Koby's math. It does sound legit. But my guts and experience with the deck make me believe that Lemnear is right and that Llanowar/1CMC Mana-Dork slots could be used to a better efficient.

Up to last weeks, I was running Llanowar as a 1-of.
It's gone now.
Sylvan Safekeeper took the slot.

[nudon]

Hypergeometric function on Excel needs 5 inputs: HYPGEOM.DIST(success, sample, total in deck, deck size, cumulative=FALSE)
When you're adding more conditions, you need to multiply the probabilities.
When you're figuring out ranges, you need to add the probabilities.

Example:
Probability of 1 mana dork AND 1 land AND 1 engine = P(1 mana dork) * P(1 land) * P(1 engine)
Probability of getting between 1 to 5 mana dorks = P(1) + P(2) + P(3) + P(4) + P(5)

Similarly for those interested in calculating probability of getting at least 1 copy of a card/land, you can always take P = 1 - [(deck_size - total_in_deck)/deck_size * (deck_size - total_in_deck - 1)/(deck_size - 1) * .... * (deck_size - total_in_deck - hand_size + 1)/(deck_size - hand_size + 1)]

While giving a good idea of your actual probability of getting 1 mana dork AND 1 land AND 1 engine, that calculation you gave is slightly off. The probability of getting 1 land or 1 engine is correlated with the probability of 1 mana dork.

Edit: Of course adding additional mana dorks increases the percentage of having at least 1 mana dork, exactly 1 land, and exactly 1 engine. However, that doesn't mean it's necessarily correct. Using the extreme example, you can remove everything in the deck aside from lands, glimpses, and NOs and fill them with mana dorks to increase the percentages you gave.

[nudon]

I don't differentiate between DRS or Llanowar Elf or GSZ=0. For this calculation, they are identical.
Likewise, a land could be Forest, Bayou, Savannah, or Fetchland; but not Gaea's Cradle nor Dryad Arbor. I assumed 2 Bayou, 1 Savannah, 1 Forest, 10 fetchland.

Interestingly enough, dropping 1 fetch increases the likelihood of this hand across the board; however there is roughly 0.7% increase when going from 8 to 9 dorks.

The reason for that is because you've fixed your condition to have EXACTLY 1 land in the opener.

[Koby]

Being curious about it myself, I ran a multi-layer analysis of the problem:

How many lands, and how many engines, and how many dorks gives us the best odds of getting the elusive hand we're discussing.


Engine Cards741.61%841.17%
Useable lands1238.13%1336.14%1433.95%1238.13%1336.14%1433.95%
Dorks898989898989
Cumulative Sum65.36%70.02%65.36%70.02%65.36%70.02%65.36%70.02%65.36%70.02%65.36%70.02%
Total Probability10.37%11.11%9.83%10.53%9.23%9.89%10.51%11.26%9.96%10.67%9.36%10.03%


Based on this, I think the best build would be 12 lands, 4 Cradle, 2 Dryad Arbor; 8 engines, and 9 dorks. The mulligan rate would be pretty high however, since there's only 12 lands that could tap for mana.

Making the condition 1 or 2 lands would increase it further. I won't calculate Cradle into the mix, but it obviously makes those hands insane too.

Other fun facts -- Lands in opener (Lands = fetches or forest/dual, but not Cradle & Arbor)

12 in deck13 in deck14 in deck
"Auto-mull" 0 Lands19.1%16.3%13.9%
1 Land38.1%36.1%33.95%
2 Land29.3%30.98%32.3%
"Keeper" = 1 OR 267.4%67.1%66.3%


You can replace these values in the "Useable lands" row in the first table to get a better gauge. It's the same conclusion -- 12/8/9 ratio (Lands, engines, dorks) as the best odds of getting that opener.

[nudon]

If possible, you should change your initial condition to 1 or 2 lands. That would fix the trend of why the % decreases with an increased land count. Also, the % goes up each time you add an additional mana dork. Adding a 2nd or even 3rd llanowar will skew the % up too. However, most of us will agree that it's undesirable to have that many llanowars. The probabilities don't care about cards like visionary/symbiote, which don't do anything for us turn 1. The type of analysis, while helpful, is better suited for decks like belcher/rogue hermit.

[danyul]

You guys are smart.

[Koby]

If possible, you should change your initial condition to 1 or 2 lands. That would fix the trend of why the % decreases with an increased land count. Also, the % goes up each time you add an additional mana dork. Adding a 2nd or even 3rd llanowar will skew the % up too. However, most of us will agree that it's undesirable to have that many llanowars. The probabilities don't care about cards like visionary/symbiote, which don't do anything for us turn 1. The type of analysis, while helpful, is better suited for decks like belcher/rogue hermit.

I don't agree with you regarding discounting these calculations. Elves is flexible enough in the late game when it needs to be. Are we only designing the deck to be able to perform in the late game, or should we push the limit of this deck in the early turns when it's most favored against the majority of the format. Yes, one removal slows down the whole game that's a given. Recount how many of your own games/matches went to goldfish pretty quickly?

Moreover, increasing the Llanowars makes Quirion Ranger into NO that much more consistent as well. It makes late game suffer - yes, and it's a terrible topdeck. However with GSZ and Glimpse and NO, I don't think Elves archetype is suffering for late-game versatility. Visionary and Symbiote also help to reduce dead topdecks in those situations. That's a lot of cantrips and tutoring thus. Birchlore Rangers sort of fall into this metric of mana dorks, but require more 1-drop elves to take advantage so it has its limitation. Increasing the spell count (NO to four), hurts it's usefulness. We're approaching the limit of non-creatures we can include in the deck. With four NO, we're just barely at 31 creatures. That's kind of low IMO.

[nudon]

The main reason why you get 12 lands is because the expectation value of getting 1 or 2 lands in the opener is 60/1.5 = 12.8. If you really wanted to maximize the value of getting only a single land in the opener, the "correct" number of lands would be lower than 12. Also, sometimes 3 lands are ok depending what else is in the hand. 9 mana dorks is certainly better than 8 for the probability you're calculating but 10 is better than 9 and so forth.

[Koby]

The main reason why you get 12 lands is because the expectation value of getting 1 or 2 lands in the opener is 60/1.5 = 12.8. If you really wanted to maximize the value of getting only a single land in the opener, the "correct" number of lands would be lower than 12. Also, sometimes 3 lands are ok depending what else is in the hand. 9 mana dorks is certainly better than 8 for the probability you're calculating but 10 is better than 9 and so forth.

My opinions on Elves are based upon experience from a range of builds, from 10 Forest + 4 Land Grant, to 19 land Survival; and everything in between (including 14 Forest + 4 Cradle + Wood Elves/Symbiote). I'm of the opinion that 18 land is at least one too many to begin with. I've bricked too many times by drawing lands from a Glimpse chain to really feel comfortable in increasing that count.

[nudon]

I don't agree with you regarding discounting these calculations. Elves is flexible enough in the late game when it needs to be. Are we only designing the deck to be able to perform in the late game, or should we push the limit of this deck in the early turns when it's most favored against the majority of the format. Yes, one removal slows down the whole game that's a given. Recount how many of your own games/matches went to goldfish pretty quickly?

Moreover, increasing the Llanowars makes Quirion Ranger into NO that much more consistent as well. It makes late game suffer - yes, and it's a terrible topdeck. However with GSZ and Glimpse and NO, I don't think Elves archetype is suffering for late-game versatility. Visionary and Symbiote also help to reduce dead topdecks in those situations. That's a lot of cantrips and tutoring thus. Birchlore Rangers sort of fall into this metric of mana dorks, but require more 1-drop elves to take advantage so it has its limitation. Increasing the spell count (NO to four), hurts it's usefulness. We're approaching the limit of non-creatures we can include in the deck. With four NO, we're just barely at 31 creatures. That's kind of low IMO.

I'm not discounting these calculations, merely saying it's not the end-all. Yes, birchlore ranger is likely to generate mana on turn 2 due to the plethora of 1 cmc elves in the deck. Sure, it's not as great with quirion ranger but it improves glimpse greatly (which has been somewhat diluted due to the addition of NO). I definitely agree that the limit of non-creature spells is close but the 4th NO has so much raw power that it's worth it.

[Lemnear]

Koby your analysis Looks promising.

I still want to Highlight that Birchlore turns ANY two Elves into mana dorks which is nothing to ignore and I strongly feel they are the mana dorks 9-12 in this deck.

Samples from todays testing:

T1: Windswept Heath for Bayou, cast Birchlore
T2: Tap Bayou for Quirion, tap both elves, bounce Bayou to untap Quirion, play another birchlore, tap 2 Elves, play and tap Cradle, NO sac Birchlore, Swing for 8

T1: savannah, Nettle
T2: Birchlore, tap 2 Elves, Nettle, tap both nettles, Hertiage, tap 3 elves, Glimpse, tap 2 nettles, Symbiote, tap 2 nettles and go nuts

[nudon]

My opinions on Elves are based upon experience from a range of builds, from 10 Forest + 4 Land Grant, to 19 land Survival; and everything in between (including 14 Forest + 4 Cradle + Wood Elves/Symbiote). I'm of the opinion that 18 land is at least one too many to begin with. I've bricked too many times by drawing lands from a Glimpse chain to really feel comfortable in increasing that count.

I know you're very experienced because I messaged you privately when I first picked up the deck/got into legacy. You may be right on the 18 land but the only land I would cut at this point is the 4th cradle since I don't want to drop below 13 t1 playable lands in the deck.

[Lemnear]

I want to give props to the peeps in this thread. This one already contains more value, brainwork and reasoning than the previous one accumulated in a year

[Koby]

I have a whole bunch of awesome turn 2 plays as well. The deck can certainly "belch" out its hand. It tends to do so when you're playing fewer lands too. I don't buy the argument that the deck needs 4 Birchlore Rangers, however. Let's examine our working slots:

1cc Unconditional mana (let's count DRS here for simplicity). This set ramps us into big mana (mana > turn count).

4 DRS
1 Llanowar Elves
4 "GSZ=0"

Second level mana dorks provide ways to reuse first tier dorks via untapping. They have a dependency of 1 card.

4 Quirion Ranger

Third level mana dorks include generating mana throughout the turn. These combo with Nettle Sentinel only, but provide insanely explosive turns. They have a dependency of at least 1 other card.

4 Heritage Druid
2-3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Wirewood Symbiote (not that you need an Elf and a dork (2 other cards) in order to generate mana here)

And that's pretty much 80% of the creatures in the deck. Two slots for win-con with NO (Regal Force / Craterhoof Behemoth / Terrastadon / whatever you fancy), 4 Nettle Sentinel for explosiveness, and 4 Elvish Visionary to generate card advantage. Maybe one or two utility green cards for late game interaction (Ooze, Viridian Shaman, Elvish Archdruid/Priest).

Based on the dependencies, I would first play 4 Quirion Ranger before playing more than 2 Birchlore Rangers. If you want to maximize the third tier mana generation, then by all means play 3 or 4 copies, but you have to cut from the utility slots, not the other mana dorks. Getting the first tier dork is most important to be able to ramp. Third tier dorks cannot ramp on turn 2 without the nut hand of Nettle Sentinel or Gaea's Cradle.

EDIT: I do want to mention that we're pretty much trying to squeeze the last 5% out of the deck. For the most part, there's a lot of variation in the last 5 cards of the deck, and hardly any of them effect the deck greatly. We can design the deck to push more early game combo (less land, more 1 drops) or for a more sustainable build (more land, more NO, more utility); or even a mix between. My stance on this archetype has always been to push it to its fundamental limit of turn 2.

[Absolutflipz]

I have a whole bunch of awesome turn 2 plays as well. The deck can certainly "belch" out its hand. It tends to do so when you're playing fewer lands too. I don't buy the argument that the deck needs 4 Birchlore Rangers, however. Let's examine our working slots:

1cc Unconditional mana (let's count DRS here for simplicity). This set ramps us into big mana (mana > turn count).

4 DRS
1 Llanowar Elves
4 "GSZ=0"

Second level mana dorks provide ways to reuse first tier dorks via untapping. They have a dependency of 1 card.

4 Quirion Ranger

Third level mana dorks include generating mana throughout the turn. These combo with Nettle Sentinel only, but provide insanely explosive turns. They have a dependency of at least 1 other card.

4 Heritage Druid
2-3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Wirewood Symbiote (not that you need an Elf and a dork (2 other cards) in order to generate mana here)

And that's pretty much 80% of the creatures in the deck. Two slots for win-con with NO (Regal Force / Craterhoof Behemoth / Terrastadon / whatever you fancy), 4 Nettle Sentinel for explosiveness, and 4 Elvish Visionary to generate card advantage. Maybe one or two utility green cards for late game interaction (Ooze, Viridian Shaman, Elvish Archdruid/Priest).

Based on the dependencies, I would first play 4 Quirion Ranger before playing more than 2 Birchlore Rangers. If you want to maximize the third tier mana generation, then by all means play 3 or 4 copies, but you have to cut from the utility slots, not the other mana dorks. Getting the first tier dork is most important to be able to ramp. Third tier dorks cannot ramp on turn 2 without the nut hand of Nettle Sentinel or Gaea's Cradle.

I agree with this for the most part. One question/comment tho.

I think counting the 4x GSZ for 0 as a mana dork is not completely telling. Yes, that play on turn 1 gives you a mana elf....however, Green Sun's Zenith is a very valuable card in the deck and often times you're really going to miss having that GSZ in your hand on turn 2, 3, etc if you had to use it for a Dryad Arbor turn 1. This is by no means saying that if you DONT use GSZ for 0 on turn 1, you definitely do...but...

By this, I think there is value in playing an additional (6 elves/4gsz), actual t1 mana Elf so that our GSZ's are not as strained (it's almost half at 4/9ths of them) on being pseudo-mana elves on turn 1, thereby allowing GSZ to be the catchall-tutor more often.

[danyul]

I agree with this for the most part. One question/comment tho.

I think counting the 4x GSZ for 0 as a mana dork is not completely telling. Yes, that play on turn 1 gives you a mana elf....however, Green Sun's Zenith is a very valuable card in the deck and often times you're really going to miss having that GSZ in your hand on turn 2, 3, etc if you had to use it for a Dryad Arbor turn 1. This is by no means saying that if you DONT use GSZ for 0 on turn 1, you definitely do...but...

By this, I think there is value in playing an additional (or 2 additional), actual t1 mana Elf so that our GSZ's are not as strained on being pseudo-mana elves on turn 1, thereby allowing GSZ to be the catchall-tutor more often.

I strongly agree here. I hate using GSZ as a mana dork but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. All the Maths don't factor this in necessarily, but if given the choice, I would rather play a utility guy T1 and hold the GSZ as a combo enabler or finisher or whatever you need. But I do appreciate all you smart folks doing number crunching. This shiz is interesting even for the dummies.

[nudon]

I strongly agree here. I hate using GSZ as a mana dork but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. All the Maths don't factor this in necessarily, but if given the choice, I would rather play a utility guy T1 and hold the GSZ as a combo enabler or finisher or whatever you need. But I do appreciate all you smart folks doing number crunching. This shiz is interesting even for the dummies.

Thanks! LOL, you wrote the primer so you're doing pretty well! I agree that just because gsz is in your opener doesn't mean you have to use it turn 1. Against any fair deck, I would probably play birchlore/nettle/quirion/symbiote instead depending on what I have. Against combo game 1 however, I definitely would play it turn 1 to accelerate into a possible t2 win. The other thing to remember is that glimpse doesn't trigger on gsz so I'd rather take my chances bricking on a t2 glimpse than give storm another turn.

[Absolutflipz]

I think we've done a fairly decent job of outlining the min/maxing of mana dudes, quirion rangers, and birchlores, giving plenty of information for helping with the last 5% as Koby said.

To a more open area with room for improvement/discussion, imo, what are people's thoughts on Natural Order postboard, and Progenitus?

I find myself wanting to sideout NO much more often than not (see reasons discussed a few pages ago) and further don't really see where Progenitus shines (maybe against Jund and punishing-fire decks?)

Thoughts? Other sideboard thoughts, whether it be cards or in/out plans?

[Lemnear]

I think we've done a fairly decent job of outlining the min/maxing of mana dudes, quirion rangers, and birchlores, giving plenty of information for helping with the last 5% as Koby said.

Who is "we"? I still think your 3/3/3 split on DRS/Llanowar and imposters/Quirion is too far away to tackle the last 5%.

Remark: My DRS tap for mana even without a fetchland thx to Birchlore ;D

Remark 2: I'm about to run Elves instead of TES for the next big event just to test my list under extreme conditions... Maybe even making a Report similar to HotS, dunno

[Absolutflipz]

Who is "we"? I still think your 3/3/3 split on DRS/Llanowar and imposers/Quirion is too far away to tackle the last 5%.

Remark: My DRS tap for mana even without a fetchland thx to Birchlore ;D

Remark 2: I'm about to run Elves instead of TES for the next big event just to test my list under extreme conditions... Maybe even making a Report similar to HotS, dunno

I'm not sure I understand the first part of your response completely, but I was just trying to segueway into a new topic with the "We've done a good job of...." moving away, at least for the moment, the discussion of optimal mana elves, birchlores, quirion rangers and onto a new topic.

Whether we agree on a build composition right now is another story, but the discussion is there to look back at and make an informed decision of what you get with the different compositions. And what's an imposer?

[Koby]

Maybe my analysis was being too optimistic. I'm assuming the technical merits of maximizing mana production with even the stock list is well understood and recognized. Do players know all the tricks to producing the most amount of mana with their cards? Do they recognize when to play draw-Visionary-bounce-visionary-go-bounce-visionary tricks? Do they know how to fog Jitte? These seem like much bigger concerns for almost all the pilots I've seen play the deck than how to figure out the last 5 cards, or figure out if they need the first, second, or third Llanowar Elves.

There's still lots to learn before we get to the point of optimizing the last 5%. Part of that is balancing the mana dorks too.

[Dice_Box]

Maybe my analysis was being too optimistic. I'm assuming the technical merits of maximizing mana production with even the stock list is well understood and recognized. Do players know all the tricks to producing the most amount of mana with their cards? Do they recognize when to play draw-Visionary-bounce-visionary-go-bounce-visionary tricks? Do they know how to fog Jitte? These seem like much bigger concerns for almost all the pilots I've seen play the deck than how to figure out the last 5 cards, or figure out if they need the first, second, or third Llanowar Elves.

There's still lots to learn before we get to the point of optimizing the last 5%. Part of that is balancing the mana dorks too.
Those are all tricks that can be put in the opening post of a large primer like this though. I mean there might be tricks that have not found yet in this deck, but if any are found they will shared and everyone would just look at it and go "Yep, good idea. I will use that." and then move on. Every once in awhile you will have a big talk about them but in all I think its better to leave those situations to be outlined in the opening post and for us as a group to squeeze the everliving hell out of the deck. Trying to get that last 2% or 3%. Because in a comp scene you do not come first be being 98% there.

[Absolutflipz]

Maybe my analysis was being too optimistic. I'm assuming the technical merits of maximizing mana production with even the stock list is well understood and recognized. Do players know all the tricks to producing the most amount of mana with their cards? Do they recognize when to play draw-Visionary-bounce-visionary-go-bounce-visionary tricks? Do they know how to fog Jitte? These seem like much bigger concerns for almost all the pilots I've seen play the deck than how to figure out the last 5 cards, or figure out if they need the first, second, or third Llanowar Elves.

There's still lots to learn before we get to the point of optimizing the last 5%. Part of that is balancing the mana dorks too.

I think that's a fine assumption, and those who don't know should specifically ask, go play a bunch more, or read up on the primer.

Working on progressing the deck without those things under your belt is going to really hamper things.

[danyul]

I agree with Koby here IRT pilot optimization over deck optimization. There is a short bit in the primer where I mention that it's more important to know all of this deck's possible interactions than it is to have a fully optimized list. I could elaborate on that point a bit, as well as buff a bunch of other parts of the primer. I've been meaning to edit the thing for weeks now.

I have also seen quite a few "suboptimal" lists placing very highly in tournaments. I think that pilot skill, drawing well, favorable pairings, and just generally running hot, will all have a greater impact on your tournament performance than whether or not you have the Nth Llanowar Elf in your deck. So while some may find it worthwhile to discuss that stuff (and I find it interesting too, so don't feel like you shouldn't), those discussions should be taken with a grain of salt or two. We don't want to scare the Elven neophytes away just yet.

[Koby]

Agreed and good point. The core is pretty much stable at about 50 cards and that's what should be highlighted. Just trying to min/max the last few slots that have been a thorn on my side.

[Absolutflipz]

I agree with Koby here IRT pilot optimization over deck optimization. There is a short bit in the primer where I mention that it's more important to know all of this deck's possible interactions than it is to have a fully optimized list. I could elaborate on that point a bit, as well as buff a bunch of other parts of the primer. I've been meaning to edit the thing for weeks now.

I have also seen quite a few "suboptimal" lists placing very highly in tournaments. I think that pilot skill, drawing well, favorable pairings, and just generally running hot, will all have a greater impact on your tournament performance than whether or not you have the Nth Llanowar Elf in your deck. So while some may find it worthwhile to discuss that stuff (and I find it interesting too, so don't feel like you shouldn't), those discussions should be taken with a grain of salt or two. We don't want to scare the Elven neophytes away just yet.

I get what you're saying, but we also can't discuss running hot, drawing well, or favorable pairings - we can discuss improving the list and proper play of it.

In other news, I can't seem to get anyone to bite on discussing sideboard(ing) with the deck, which I think is a pretty big space for improvement/understanding, as games 2 and 3 are the hardest to play with the deck.

[danyul]

I can appreciate that. I never meant to stifle discussion. I just wanted to add some context, that's all.

Also, I've seen you asking about SBing but I've just been waiting for somebody else to answer you, since I often don't remember how I board so I didn't think I would have anything useful to add. Sometimes I make crazy choices based on instinct, and sometimes it doesn't matter what I board because I win or lose from some other angle. I'll try to put some time towards that when I get off work in a few hours.. And we can hash it out, brah.

[Dice_Box]

I think a lot of the sideboard is mostly the same across most of the decks.

Cabal Therapy (3-4)
Abrupt Decay (3-4)
NO (0-1)
Gaddock Teeg (1)
Scavenging Ooze (1)
Harmonic Sliver (1)
Ruric Thar (0-1)
Progenitus (0-1)
Umezawa's Jitte (0-1)

Then you have meta slots. Personally I run Loaming Shaman and Realm Razer. I think I got everything.

[Koby]

In other news, I can't seem to get anyone to bite on discussing sideboard(ing) with the deck, which I think is a pretty big space for improvement/understanding, as games 2 and 3 are the hardest to play with the deck.

Let's start with your sideboard. What are you running, or want to run? I can recommend my own, but it's geared towards how I approach my trouble matchups so it may not apply well universally.

[Absolutflipz]

Let's start with your sideboard. What are you running, or want to run? I can recommend my own, but it's geared towards how I approach my trouble matchups so it may not apply well universally.

Ok - the maindeck:

3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Elvish Mystic
1x Llanowar Elves
3x Quirion Ranger
2x Birchlore Ranger
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Heritage Druid
4x Wirewood Symbiote
4x Elvish Visionary
2x Craterhoof Behemoth

4x GSZ
4x Glimpse
3x Natural Order
1x Flex (Crop Rotation, V. Shaman, Ooze, Jitte) - let's say Viridian Shaman for now

9x Green Fetches
2x Forest
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Gaea's Cradle

Sideboard-
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Thoughtseize (you may consider this 4x Therapy for generic purposes without getting into the Therapy vs other discard argument)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Thalia
2x Thorns of Amethyst
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Sylvan Library
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Absolute Law (possibly E. Witness against discard/grindy mu's)

[nudon]

Sideboard-
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Thoughtseize (you may consider this 4x Therapy for generic purposes without getting into the Therapy vs other discard argument)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Thalia
2x Thorns of Amethyst
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Sylvan Library
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Absolute Law

Glad you finally listened and took out Domri Rade. In my opinion, there needs to be at least 3 decays because of how bad the miracles matchup is. Unless there's a lot of grim lavamancer in your area, the absolute law might not be necessary. Library might not be necessary too depending what's in your meta. Progenitus occupies 1 (or 2 for NO#4) but beats every fair, non-blue deck out there. Everything else is pretty stock. Finally, the 2nd mystic in the MD should be fyndhorn due to therapy and echoing truth if you really want 3 llanowars.

[Absolutflipz]

Glad you finally listened and took out Domri Rade. In my opinion, there needs to be at least 3 decays because of how bad the miracles matchup is. Unless there's a lot of grim lavamancer in your area, the absolute law might not be necessary. Library might not be necessary too depending what's in your meta. Progenitus occupies 1 (or 2 for NO#4) but beats every fair, non-blue deck out there. Everything else is pretty stock. Finally, the 2nd mystic in the MD should be fyndhorn due to therapy and echoing truth if you really want 3 llanowars.

Sure re: Mystic/Fyndhorn/Llanowar for therapy, but then I'll have a non-foil =(

I still think Domri/Garruk Relentless could be good...but another time.

The Absolute Law is a slight nod to RUG delver and Punishing Fire decks which I consider pretty tricky MU's, esp. postboard.

A third decay over the 1 Sylvan is possible as it helps against Delver...but I'm pretty hopeless on ever beating Miracles.

Re: Progenitus that's where I saw him as being best, i.e. against Jund, Punishing Fire decks, and Goblins (tho many Goblin sb's will have perish as the deck is weak to Goyf)? I dont think he's good against a non-blue deck like Maverick or the GW death and taxes as most play Thalia and Teeg, and sometimes Mindcensor. Is this enough to warrant a spot for him? What other decks is he great against where Hoof wouldn't get it done?

[Dice_Box]

Most goblins have moved to White for Thalia and combo hate. Your more likely to see an O ring than a perish from goblins these days.

[Kayradis]

I think we tackled most of the problem could encounter Game 1.
But, what are the really problematic match up for the deck and what can we do to improve it?

By my own experience, I know that RUG Delver/Canadian Threshold is quite a pain in the ass. I think I lose close to 55+% of the matched againts the deck.

What could be the SB strategies we could introduce in order to make that match up move viable?
I know I have a different view of SB'ing after discussion with many of my friends around here.

[Zombie]

Yeah, Delver decks are a PITA. They have enough counters and removal to stop us from forming engines well, and a good pressure game. I think the two routes to consider are boarding into Therapy + NO=>Prog/Ruric plan because they have a hard time killing them and their relevant effects don't die to Stifle.
The other is deploying a minimal amount of stuff on the board, and going for a protected Glimpse to emulate Storm's Empty plan which RUG at least handles pretty poorly. I can't test it atm, but thus far I've tried deploying dudes on the board and largely just lost miserably.
The third option is just Absolute Law, at which point they're basically screwed barring Delvers.

[Kayradis]

As a fact, last time I played against RUG in a tournament, Ruric Thar won me both games.
When it comes to him chump blocking with Goyf while your DRS are removing relevant stuff before damage from the yard (Sorceries or instants) multiple times with Quirion/Symbiote activations, it create a soft lock against such deck.

I do belive that Sylvan Safekeeper is quite good in that matchup, but I dont like the whole Sac. A Land unfortunately. The land count is pretty low, but getting rid of fetches when your land count on the battlefield is optimal can be quite advantageous.

[Lemnear]

As a fact, last time I played against RUG in a tournament, Ruric Thar won me both games.
When it comes to him chump blocking with Goyf while your DRS are removing relevant stuff before damage from the yard (Sorceries or instants) multiple times with Quirion/Symbiote activations, it create a soft lock against such deck.


come on ... if you are able to stick a fattie against RUG you won near anyways. The issue is to make this happen or find an alternative gameplan




@ beating RUG Delver: You can try the swarm-plan via Wirewood Hivemaster or Wolf-Skull Shaman ... never tested, just an idea

[Zombie]

Wouldn't Imperious Perfect be a better swarm engine than Wolfskull? It can be twiddled and the tokens are Elves.

[Kayradis]

come on ... if you are able to stick a fattie against RUG you won near anyways. The issue is to make this happen or find an alternative gameplan




@ beating RUG Delver: You can try the swarm-plan via Wirewood Hivemaster or Wolf-Skull Shaman ... never tested, just an idea

The main problem here is Rough//Tumble.

If I can stick a fatty, it's mostly over, yes, I agree.

Still. We should find ways to improve the Match up G2-3


@Zombie : I don't believe Imperious Perfect would be usuable. Nice thinking tho!

[Zombie]

It wasn't my intention to say it's anywhere near the best of ideas. Just better than Wolfskull because all manner of fringe benefits and reliability - you make tokens no matter what. Plus considering how big of a thorn Lingering Souls is in some decks' side, what about an active Perfect, kept safe with Symbiotes?

[nexus blue]

It wasn't my intention to say it's anywhere near the best of ideas. Just better than Wolfskull because all manner of fringe benefits and reliability - you make tokens no matter what. Plus considering how big of a thorn Lingering Souls is in some decks' side, what about an active Perfect, kept safe with Symbiotes?

I like the idea of being able to use a badass elf that is fun to play but not typically practical in this deck as a SB option. However, apart from being a few years removed from active play, I've never played against RUG/Delver. After reading the description (of RUG/Delver) it seems like this might work.

On another note, props to all these recent posts. Someone else already said it but this is the most comprehensive Elf post ever. But the math is beyond me, not so much in understanding as in a good chunk of this game is luck and randomness. Even a deck designed to beat another deck can lose to that same deck when the stars and shit align. So getting too stressed about 3 DRS or 4 seems to be a metagame/playstyle question as compared to a discussion on why to play DRS at all. I'm just an amateur player, I'd rather have a fun time at a tourney like Danyul's report talks about than stress over perfection. Just saying.

[danyul]

Yeah RUG Delver can beat you just like they beat any other deck - with a clock and some serious disruption - but in my experience, using Cabal Therapy to rip up their hand has been a winning strategy. Also, Stifle means we should swap the second Hoof for a Prog (I haven't tried Ruric Thar here yet but that seems to be an option) and be sure to max out on Scavenging Oozes.

The cards you fear, other than their whole deck, are Rough/Tumble, sometimes Firespout, Stifle (if you are about to Hoof them), and Submerge (this can hurt a lot or very little, depending on the boardstate and size of your Scooze).

I don't think this matchup calls for special sideboard cards. I think you can beat it with careful play and a bit of good juju. But that's just my experience.

[Kayradis]

I find Ooze overwhelming in this matchup.
GSZ = 2 with a cradle untapped is quite a way to stabilize midgame and turn their goyfs/moogose into Weenies.

[MD.Ghost]

I switched from 4 th NO + Progenitus plan to 2 nd Ooze and 1 Thrun. I think against tempo or even miracle if you count thrun vs countertop/swords it is much better. This deck can beat any fair deck without the big hydra god.

I also play Ruric mainboard, the ogre works quite good if you cant kill them with craterhoof (or you smell stifle, terminus etc.)

[Koby]

I find Ooze overwhelming in this matchup.
GSZ = 2 with a cradle untapped is quite a way to stabilize midgame and turn their goyfs/moogose into Weenies.

This times a million. Against RUG, I play three stages:

Stage 1: develop a solid mana base with Forest.
Stage 2: flood the board (no more than 4 dudes). Apply pressure, try to resolve Glimpse for card advantage (firstly), combo if possible (secondary).
Stage 3: after a sweeper, or if Goyf/Goose/Delver starts to become too much to handle with Wirewood fogging, deploy Scavenging Ooze and shred the graveyard. Eat as many creatures to gain life and put more pressure. Submerge is going to be an issue, so don't waste all your mana into him unless you're sure it's going to be lethal.

[Absolutflipz]

I'm curious about your use of Cabal Therapy against RUG, Danyul. It's not my first instinct for sure, but I'm open to thougths and other's experiences.

In general, I'd side as follows against RUG:

-1 Heritage Druid, -1 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Quirion Ranger, -3 NO (O remaining), -1 Hoof (1 remaining in)

+1 Thalia, +1 Thorns, +2 Abrupt Decay, +2 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Eternal Witness/Absolute Law/Jitte

Possibly, additional -1 Llanowar and add the 2nd Thorns -- Or you could obviously take out Viridian Shaman (she's in my main), but Ive had haunting experiences with Cursed Totem so I'm too scared a lot of time and some lists run Jitte.

My experience has varied with the Thorn effects, but they seem better than the stuff I'm taking out. They're also better on the play than on the draw, fwiw.

Thrun is interesting (survives Rough/Tumble), but I think the issue with Thrun is: 1) it's still smaller than Goyf, 2) Symbiote allows indefinite blocking already, 3) Casting cost

[igri_is_a_bk]

Against RUG, I always bring in Oozes, Decays, and Progenitus. What are you trying to name with Therapy here? Their only hope for a quick clock is with Delver (so maybe that if you're on the play) as we'll muck up the ground level. And then Decay just murders that strategy.

I dunno if this needs to be said, yet I'm going to anyways... As it was foretold centuries ago, the way to beat RUG and UWR is to play around Wasteland, Daze, and Stifle. I know that's a very mundane statement, but take it as you will. These MUs can (and ideally do) go long, so you don't need to rush anything. Visionary is simply amazing in this MU. Play for the best friend team as that will win you the game.

[Kayradis]

Good RUG pilots know that the dangerous creature in the deck is the symbiote, and will gladly bolt it first.
The bestfriend team might get hard to assemble.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Absolutely. You'll likely have to draw multiple Symbiotes before you can get there. Be thankful we get to play 8 copies of it. DRS is also a nightmare for them, to be fair.


I would think leading with Visionary first is correct, so that if you are able to resolve Symbiote you'll have priority to at least bounce the Visionary once before the Symbiote is Bolted.

Yep. It even puts them on the dilemma of Bolting the Visionary with the Symbiote on the stack, which is great for us either way.

[Absolutflipz]

I would think leading with Visionary first is correct, so that if you are able to resolve Symbiote you'll have priority to at least bounce the Visionary once before the Symbiote is Bolted.

[danyul]

I'm curious about your use of Cabal Therapy against RUG, Danyul. It's not my first instinct for sure, but I'm open to thougths and other's experiences.

In general, I'd side as follows against RUG:

-1 Heritage Druid, -1 Nettle Sentinel, -1 Quirion Ranger, -3 NO (O remaining), -1 Hoof (1 remaining in)

+1 Thalia, +1 Thorns, +2 Abrupt Decay, +2 Scavenging Ooze, +1 Eternal Witness/Absolute Law/Jitte

Possibly, additional -1 Llanowar and add the 2nd Thorns -- Or you could obviously take out Viridian Shaman (she's in my main), but Ive had haunting experiences with Cursed Totem so I'm too scared a lot of time and some lists run Jitte.

My experience has varied with the Thorn effects, but they seem better than the stuff I'm taking out. They're also better on the play than on the draw, fwiw.


I wouldn't cut Heritage Druid, as those are integral to comboing off, if that play presents itself. I never cut Nettle, since those enable all of our plans. I wouldn't cut Q.Ranger, since those protect our nonbasics and can help us get extra value out of our lands if they start attacking our mana aggressively. I can see cutting NO.

My SB is a bit different from yours. I don't run tax effects. I'm mainly using the Therapies to knock board wipes, counterspells, and creatures out of their hand. I'll name Rough/Tumble or Stifle on the first cast and then, depending on what I see, go for their best card. Of course, discard isn't the best answer for a board wipe, as they can always draw it off the top or hide it with Brainstorm. But I'm not bringing in the full set of Therapies. I would grab 2-3. And I'm expecting them not to play around that card. So hopefully they sit on their Rough/Tumble and I can snag it. Alternatively, I would cast it right before comboing off, to check for Stifles (which make Hoof super sad) and to steal their Forces.

I'll admit that I haven't had the most rigorous testing against RUG since nobody plays it much around here anymore after DRS/Abrupt Decay hit the scene. But this is my current gameplan against them. I'm open to suggestions!


I dunno if this needs to be said, yet I'm going to anyways... As it was foretold centuries ago, the way to beat RUG and UWR is to play around Wasteland, Daze, and Stifle. I know that's a very mundane statement, but take it as you will. These MUs can (and ideally do) go long, so you don't need to rush anything. Visionary is simply amazing in this MU. Play for the best friend team as that will win you the game.
+1

[Absolutflipz]

Taking out a Heritage Druid and a Nettle Sentinel is fine as the matchup is very grindy and much less combo-oriented. Heritage Druid is one of the worst Elves in the deck when you're not comboing, and I'm fairly certain shaving one here (and in other such matchups) is correct.

Discard to hit the Rough/Tumble or Counterspells is something I may try in lieu of the Thorn effects to get a feel.

[Kayradis]

Thorn was, and still is, an amazing card in that match up.

The nature of RUG Delver (even UR Delver) makes it weak to taxing effects.
Thalia could make an appearance in my SB in the future. Im not 100% convinced.

[Absolutflipz]

Yeah I like the third Thorn as a beater in Thalia.

Another thought on a potential sideboard card to help against sweepers (not named Terminus)...what about Golgari Charm?

It's cheap and gives an answer to some of the biggest postboard cards (supreme verdict, rough/tumble, engineered explosives) and the destroy an enchantment mode is still relevant. The -1/-1 mayyyybe for the mirror and how you craft the game.

Edit: nevermind on Perish, forgot the can't be regen'd clause.

[danyul]

I'm not worried about Perish. I'm more concerned with Pyroclasm, Rough/Tumble, and Verdict. I find that I can beat Perish decks because they have a slower clock and fewer counterspells than decks that utilize the other board wipes.

I like the Golgari Charm idea. I'll test it.

[nudon]

It seems like people are struggling with RUG more now than in the past. Part of the reason for that is due to the inclusion of NO. RUG is problematic when they land a t1 delver with counters and bolts in hand. It's unlikely to be able to get NO past a good RUG player. I personally would board: -4 NO, -1 viridian shaman, +3 decay, +1 ooze, +1 arbor. The decays help deal with flipped delvers and grim lavamancer (if they have it). Sure you lose the game-ending ability of NO but you're favored if the game goes late anyways. Tight play and symbiote/visionary recursion should allow you to stabilize.

I don't think golgari charm will work for the same reasons we don't play counterspells. It's far too reactive in a deck that wants to tap out every turn.

[Absolutflipz]

It seems like people are struggling with RUG more now than in the past. Part of the reason for that is due to the inclusion of NO. RUG is problematic when they land a t1 delver with counters and bolts in hand. It's unlikely to be able to get NO past a good RUG player. I personally would board: -4 NO, -1 viridian shaman, +3 decay, +1 ooze, +1 arbor. The decays help deal with flipped delvers and grim lavamancer (if they have it). Sure you lose the game-ending ability of NO but you're favored if the game goes late anyways. Tight play and symbiote/visionary recursion should allow you to stabilize.

I don't think golgari charm will work for the same reasons we don't play counterspells. It's far too reactive in a deck that wants to tap out every turn.

I 100% agree that NO should come out against Delver. It's a mana denial deck also playing Daze, Spell Pierce, and removal.

I agree to an extent with the comment re: Golgari Charm and being reactive (so is Abrupt Decay...) while needing to tap out, however, I've found in testing other random builds (blue for spell pierce, flusterstorm) and such that having cards like Deathrite/Manadorks and Quirion/Birchlore in particular allow you to appear "tapped out" while still having access to mana for such things as Golgari Charm/Abrupt Decay that almost always come as a surprise.

[danyul]

I wouldn't necessarily bring in the Charms against RUG. I mostly wanted them against Deathblade and Sneak and Show, and maybe even OmniTell just to have *something* to bring in against them besides discard.

But, assuming I do bring in Charm, I'd likely play as normal until the turn before they are most likely to go for the boardwipe. Then just sit on enough mana to make my play. Against RUG, this isn't the best idea as they have all kinds of stupid countermagic. But against Pyroclasm from Show and Tell or Verdict from Deathblade, this seems like something worth exploring. Maybe? I actually have very good records against both those decks right now so I dunno what I'm worried about. The Charm just gives us lots of game against a bunch of decks and I'm kinda excited to try them out.

[nudon]

I 100% agree that NO should come out against Delver. It's a mana denial deck also playing Daze, Spell Pierce, and removal.

I agree to an extent with the comment re: Golgari Charm and being reactive (so is Abrupt Decay...) while needing to tap out, however, I've found in testing other random builds (blue for spell pierce, flusterstorm) and such that having cards like Deathrite/Manadorks and Quirion/Birchlore in particular allow you to appear "tapped out" while still having access to mana for such things as Golgari Charm/Abrupt Decay that almost always come as a surprise.

Yes, quirion, birchlore, and symbiote can trick your opponent into a false sense of security (like with decay). However, the difference between abrupt decay and golgari charm is that abrupt decay can still be cast the following turn. If you're using golgari charm in order to "counter" a sweeper, you are potentially double dazing yourself every turn.


I wouldn't necessarily bring in the Charms against RUG. I mostly wanted them against Deathblade and Sneak and Show, and maybe even OmniTell just to have *something* to bring in against them besides discard.

But, assuming I do bring in Charm, I'd likely play as normal until the turn before they are most likely to go for the boardwipe. Then just sit on enough mana to make my play. Against RUG, this isn't the best idea as they have all kinds of stupid countermagic. But against Pyroclasm from Show and Tell or Verdict from Deathblade, this seems like something worth exploring. Maybe? I actually have very good records against both those decks right now so I dunno what I'm worried about. The Charm just gives us lots of game against a bunch of decks and I'm kinda excited to try them out.

SnT can play pyroclasm as early as turn 2 while deathblade can play explosives turn 2 and verdict turn 3. If you want charm for its versatility, then it might be worth exploring. However if you're using it as a response to sweepers, I have my doubts.

[danyul]

I hear you there. But I'm not really worried about a turn two wipe. I don't think I would lose that much. I'm speaking more about protecting myself once I've built up a certain number of dudes. Deciding when to hold back mana to protect the team at that point is a little unclear and may indeed require me to Daze myself. I have no idea. There is a bigger tourney this Saturday and I'll try them out. I'll report back with results, if any.

This could be as bad as my Reverent Silence idea.

[Absolutflipz]

Yes, quirion, birchlore, and symbiote can trick your opponent into a false sense of security (like with decay). However, the difference between abrupt decay and golgari charm is that abrupt decay can still be cast the following turn. If you're using golgari charm in order to "counter" a sweeper, you are potentially double dazing yourself every turn.



SnT can play pyroclasm as early as turn 2 while deathblade can play explosives turn 2 and verdict turn 3. If you want charm for its versatility, then it might be worth exploring. However if you're using it as a response to sweepers, I have my doubts.

I don't think you're Double-Dazing yourself at all. Postboard you dont want to over-extend as it is, so not throwing everything out as possible is just in-line with your plan, anyway.

It is a fact that sweepers are prevalent and incredibly good against the deck. I don't know of any proactive card that helps against this, other than playing with sweepers in mind and using cards like Ooze which are great afterward. A reactive card like G. Charm is about as best I can see for counteracting such a big problem, and it's practically as cheap as it gets for one.

The fact that if you do resolve the Charm in response to Verdict, Clasm, Rough/Tumble, EE you're probably going to win I think is telling that it is worth a shot.

Add in the utility for enchanment-removal and sublte uses in the mirror and elsewhere for the -1/-1 (remember you could play around it in a sense by a) being the person with it in hand, and b) utilizing deathrite and sentinel moreso which are X/2s).

This is no cure-all to the deck, which I hope it's not coming across as, but I'm going to try it out.

Edit: Reverent Silence being a Sorcery and only against Enchantments makes it much worse, imo.

[nudon]

@Daniel: Sounds good, I'll look forward to your results.


I don't think you're Double-Dazing yourself at all. Postboard you dont want to over-extend as it is, so not throwing everything out as possible is just in-line with your plan, anyway.

It is a fact that sweepers are prevalent and incredibly good against the deck. I don't know of any proactive card that helps against this, other than playing with sweepers in mind and using cards like Ooze which are great afterward. A reactive card like G. Charm is about as best I can see for counteracting such a big problem, and it's practically as cheap as it gets for one.

The fact that if you do resolve the Charm in response to Verdict, Clasm, Rough/Tumble, EE you're probably going to win I think is telling that it is worth a shot.

Add in the utility for enchanment-removal and sublte uses in the mirror and elsewhere for the -1/-1 (remember you could play around it in a sense by a) being the person with it in hand, and b) utilizing deathrite and sentinel moreso which are X/2s).

This is no cure-all to the deck, which I hope it's not coming across as, but I'm going to try it out.

Edit: Reverent Silence being a Sorcery and only against Enchantments makes it much worse, imo.

Against combo and tempo decks, you often have to tap out during the first few turns or risk falling too far behind. If they're playing sweepers instead of their bombs, then it's likely you'll reach the late-game where you're heavily favored.

Against control decks, the best answer in my opinion is already part of your main deck. I'll often want to play visionary (replaces itself) or symbiote (protects others) on turn 2 to avoid getting blown out by a sweeper while still threatening to combo next turn. With golgari charm, you won't be able to freely tap out for visionary/symbiote recursion. Personally, I'd rather take my chances with cabal therapy (though I don't think it's necessary) or other discard before relying on charm to combat sweepers. Yes, resolving charm is probably going to blow out your opponent. However, you might be playing around something that isn't even there. Like I said, the versatility is nice but I don't see it being better than the options already in the deck for fighting sweepers. Let me know how your testing goes though in case I'm wrong.

On another note, I feel less is more when boarding against fair decks. Replacing elves with spells really dilutes glimpse and NO.

[Absolutflipz]

[QUOTE=nudon;741077]@Daniel: Sounds good, I'll look forward to your results.



Against combo and tempo decks, you often have to tap out during the first few turns or risk falling too far behind. If they're playing sweepers instead of their bombs, then it's likely you'll reach the late-game where you're heavily favored.

Against control decks, the best answer in my opinion is already part of your main deck. I'll often want to play visionary (replaces itself) or symbiote (protects others) on turn 2 to avoid getting blown out by a sweeper while still threatening to combo next turn. With golgari charm, you won't be able to freely tap out for visionary/symbiote recursion. Personally, I'd rather take my chances with cabal therapy (though I don't think it's necessary) or other discard before relying on charm to combat sweepers. Yes, resolving charm is probably going to blow out your opponent. However, you might be playing around something that isn't even there. Like I said, the versatility is nice but I don't see it being better than the options already in the deck for fighting sweepers. Let me know how your testing goes though in case I'm wrong.

On another note, I feel less is more when boarding against fair decks. Replacing elves with spells really dilutes glimpse and NO.[/QUOTE

Will do.

And I dont think you should be combo-focused against decks like Delver-variants, and NO should be coming out of the deck. You're bringing in Thorn effects and they have Spell Pierce, Daze, Wasteland, Stifle, and removal which makes NO miserable.

[LeoCop 90]

i'm surprised that the RUG matchup is being discussed so much and nobody mentioned graveyard hate. If you manage to play a rest in peace against them they will never win except for delver.

So i would side in rest in peace and abrupt decay. Decay delver, then play everything you can before rest in peace to bait counters. Once you resolve it you shouldn't lose. An alternative can be relic of progenitus, which is cheaper and makes you draw a card, but rest in peace is more impactful.

[Absolutflipz]

i'm surprised that the RUG matchup is being discussed so much and nobody mentioned graveyard hate. If you manage to play a rest in peace against them they will never win except for delver.

So i would side in rest in peace and abrupt decay. Decay delver, then play everything you can before rest in peace to bait counters. Once you resolve it you shouldn't lose. An alternative can be relic of progenitus, which is cheaper and makes you draw a card, but rest in peace is more impactful.

Deathrite + Scavenging Ooze. I feel like pure graveyard hate is mediocre as you can only side so many cards and they need to be impactful and have a board presence. Rest in Peace and Relic also kinda ruins your own Deathrite, Ooze, too, which is no good.

[Absolutflipz]

Thoughts on boarding against Shardless BUG?

Thorn Effects seem ehh against a Deathrite deck. Discard doesn't seem strong.

Scavenging Ooze and Card Advantage cards are what we should be looking at I'd say given their amount of removal and Hymns. Abrupt Decay is ok.

Do you try to get lucky with NO into Progenitus, even tho they have 1-3x Liliana and NO can be card disadvantage? Does BUG cut Liliana postboard cuz she's not that great against us?

Play around Massacre by bouncing your Savannah before their main phase in some spots?

[fisharu]

i'm surprised that the RUG matchup is being discussed so much and nobody mentioned graveyard hate. If you manage to play a rest in peace against them they will never win except for delver.

So i would side in rest in peace and abrupt decay. Decay delver, then play everything you can before rest in peace to bait counters. Once you resolve it you shouldn't lose. An alternative can be relic of progenitus, which is cheaper and makes you draw a card, but rest in peace is more impactful.

Wouldn't Scavenging Ooze be better here on the principle that it's tutorable, maindeckable if the meta calls for it, and a beater even when he's not in the active "graveyard hate" role?

[Dice_Box]

Also shutting down our own Deathrites seems a touch contrary to the overall plan of our deck. If I was going to run grave hate (Thats not ooze) against a deck I think I would rather Leyline of the void. If its in your opening hand its great and mana is not the greatest issue in the world for this deck. Also it does not shut off your own grave and thats helpful.

[danyul]

I didn't know Shardless BUG decks played Massacre now. I have always considered that deck a bye. Did you just lose to that card the one time or is this a recurring problem?

[Absolutflipz]

I didn't know Shardless BUG decks played Massacre now. I have always considered that deck a bye. Did you just lose to that card the one time or is this a recurring problem?

Massacre is played now and even moreso they play multiple copies of Golgari Charm.


Check out the SCG Invi lists and GerrryT's latest article and list.

I'm surprised its been a bye for you. They have cheap disruption, hymn, fow, and mass removal.

[nudon]

Thoughts on boarding against Shardless BUG?

Thorn Effects seem ehh against a Deathrite deck. Discard doesn't seem strong.

Scavenging Ooze and Card Advantage cards are what we should be looking at I'd say given their amount of removal and Hymns. Abrupt Decay is ok.

Do you try to get lucky with NO into Progenitus, even tho they have 1-3x Liliana and NO can be card disadvantage? Does BUG cut Liliana postboard cuz she's not that great against us?

Play around Massacre by bouncing your Savannah before their main phase in some spots?

-1 hoof, -1 quirion ranger, -2 heritage druid, +1 progenitus (4 NO md), +1 ooze, +1 harmonic sliver, +1 dryad arbor

Ooze and harmonic sliver can be substituted for 2 abrupt decays depending how you feel. Doesn't really matter though because this matchup is a bye. FoW is their only counterspell and they don't have much of a clock. They simply can't beat progenitus too. Liliana only kills progenitus if you're really sloppy. You should not need savannah in this matchup so massacre is useless.

[danyul]

I'm looking at Gerry T's list from the Invitational right now and the scariest things I see are 2x Golgari Charm. Their answers are all generally more expensive than our threats. And their clock is slow enough that we have an opportunity to recover from discard.

I'd probably just bring in Abrupt Decays and Scooze #2 (I have 1 main). You may have just been getting god-handed by them. Do you have any specific play-by-plays you can share? That might help us see where you are having problems.

Edit - unrelated, but I was messing with a Modern deck and saw a card that could be interesting to use - Defense Grid. Is there any merit to this card? Or am I trying to be too cute?

[Dice_Box]

Edit - unrelated, but I was messing with a Modern deck and saw a card that could be interesting to use - Defense Grid. Is there any merit to this card? Or am I trying to be too cute?
I like City of Solitude (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3659) when going down this path. I do not feel like this card really helps us over any other card we already play though and do not see what we would cut for it. Its cute yes, but not really strong enough to kick another card from the sideboard.

[MD.Ghost]

If you fear sweeper you can also try crazy stuff like proclamation of rebirth (easy with w-splash), it also works against chalice, trinisphere and with a bit luck countertop-lock. You get 3 dudes and maybe can use mana effects like heritage or birchlore.

[Kayradis]

I like the G.Charm in the SB. Gets rid of stuff. But now that we look at that, should we rethink our ways?

K.Grip used to be in the SB. Should we dedicate a slot to it again? Or the modes of the charms are better than the uncounterability

[LeoCop 90]

Wouldn't Scavenging Ooze be better here on the principle that it's tutorable, maindeckable if the meta calls for it, and a beater even when he's not in the active "graveyard hate" role?

It is better as an overall sideboard card, but if i think of a card against rug rest in peace is better. Ooze only eats creatures, so goyf will lose only one point,and mongoose can be a 3/3 aniway. With rest in peace goyf is a 0/1 and mongoose a 1/1 forever. Ooze can also be hit by submerge.


Also shutting down our own Deathrites seems a touch contrary to the overall plan of our deck. If I was going to run grave hate (Thats not ooze) against a deck I think I would rather Leyline of the void. If its in your opening hand its great and mana is not the greatest issue in the world for this deck. Also it does not shut off your own grave and thats helpful.

Leyline doesn't affect our graveyard wich is better for deathrite, but worse for tarmogoyf. it depends if you think is more important to shrink their goyfs or to keep your deathrite active. Aniway leyline costs 2BB so if you don't have it in the opening is quite inefficient and doesn't remove cards that are already in graveyards when it enters the battlefield.



Overall I think you are underestimating the power of rest in peace against rug: once it resolves they only have 4 cards in their deck to try winning.
Maybe it is not a good choice for our sideboard in general, but against rug i really can't think of anything better.


If you fear sweeper you can also try crazy stuff like proclamation of rebirth (easy with w-splash), it also works against chalice, trinisphere and with a bit luck countertop-lock. You get 3 dudes and maybe can use mana effects like heritage or birchlore.

Immortal Servitude ? Patriarch's Bidding? They all are too mana intensive, i suppose.