[Primer] Elves!

[elFinFas]

The problem i have against eldrazi is that if they put a chalice on play the presure is too strong and fast!
Is not the same when the mud deck play chalice!
I feel that i can only whin because the deck is not so consistent some times!

Do you have any sugestion or teck ?

[Lemnear]

The problem i have against eldrazi is that if they put a chalice on play the presure is too strong and fast!
Is not the same when the mud deck play chalice!
I feel that i can only whin because the deck is not so consistent some times!

Do you have any sugestion or teck ?

Basically the same every time people complain about issues with Artifacts/Enchantments in maindecks like Jitte/Chalice/Counterbalance/etc: Run more Sages and create cardadvantage with them rather with cute stuff like Sylvan Library. Its also not the case that Eldrazi can stand against a Packmaster in play. You can not expect to have a positive outcome in this match with 1 Sage and 3 SB Decays only to dig you out of Chalice/Jitte/etc in this matchup

[Julian23]

I just uploaded all 7 pre-recorded VODs of me playing Chaos Elves in yesterday's Legacy Challenge. Check them out on my website (http://itsjulian.com/?p=2059).

Disclaimer: I probably didn't bring my A-game to the table, but I figured I'd still share it :)

[Zombie]

I just uploaded all 7 pre-recorded VODs of me playing Chaos Elves in yesterday's Legacy Challenge. Check them out on my website (http://itsjulian.com/?p=2059).

Disclaimer: I probably didn't bring my A-game to the table, but I figured I'd still share it :)

Watched the first one thus far. Felt unnecessarily conservative, at least in my view. You let him build worse and worse softlocks instead of heading them off in a timely manner. You said they don't have a reset button, but you don't either. Topdecking is great if your draws aren't dead. A lot of times you have action in hand and let it die there because he builds a board position. Two different hatebears means a lot of dead topdecks. Even if you have the solution, is it a solution if solving the board takes three turns? Why side Library out?

Good layout, nice to see games posted. Will watch the others when I get the time.

[mistercakes]

wondering your thoughts julian on a singleton natural order over the crop rotation?

[Luiz_AFF]

I'm playing with the NO version,and I wanna know what do you guys use in SB against Eldrazi. My SB is:
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing neddle
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Glissa (BG)
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Dacay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction

Glissa is just for the Eldrazi matchup,and I dont know if this will work hahaha

Enviado de meu XT1097 usando Tapatalk

[Echelon]

Someone has been in the Nic Fit thread... Lol.

[Lemnear]

I have no fucking clue how everyone can whinne about Eldrazi and Chalice, but does not bother to run 4 Decays

[Echelon]

I have no fucking clue how everyone can whinne about Eldrazi and Chalice, but does not bother to run 4 Decays

You don't solve problems, you wait for them to go away. Sheesh. Have you learned nothing in your years on this forum?

[Lemnear]

You don't solve problems, you wait for them to go away. Sheesh. Have you learned nothing in your years on this forum?

Over the years you have become a true friend reminding me constantly that calling for bannings is indeed a legit approach to solve metagame issues. Thanks for your dedication and Reality checks in regards to my naive believe in humanity, reason and consequences

[Zombie]

I have no fucking clue how everyone can whinne about Eldrazi and Chalice, but does not bother to run 4 Decays

Against Eldrazi specifically, wouldn't Putrefy be a decent fun-of? Kills all the usual suspects as well as unwary Batterskulls and can actually off bigger Eldrazi. With the white splash returning Oblivion Ring could also be an option for some S&T splash damage. 4 removal board does sound like a sane idea nowadays, though Caverns also help with Eldrazi.

[Echelon]

Over the years you have become a true friend reminding me constantly that calling for bannings is indeed a legit approach to solve metagame issues. Thanks for your dedication and Reality checks in regards to my naive believe in humanity, reason and consequences

I'm here for you, buddy.

[EEk1TwEEk]

Playing
1 packmaster maindeck,
1 packmaster + 1 meekstone sideboard
eldrazi cannot handle this. Wolves with deathtouch rock!

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Looks like we're back in the minors.

[starfox444]

I think the deck to beat at this moment is eldrazi!
We should be talking about that!
What kind of techs do you are using?
What are your sideboard sugestions?

I play a few matches against my friend who is new to eldrazi (aren't they all at this point?) and it seemed ok.

I played very combo piece heavy deck (many 4 ofs of the combo specific elves) with a packmaster and rec sage for good measure. Really all I did was abrupt decay lock pieces and hope the start wasn't extremely exposive so I would have 2+ turns of set up then you just combo them. NO or a turn of glimpse + make tons of chump blockers for NO next turn is good enough.

The matchup only went south when they drew many (key is multiple, one is usually not good enough) interactive cards that had a mix of attacking board and hand. For example 2 thought knot seers really sucked and made it hard to recover from a well timed warping wail or dismember.

It's not really interesting to play, I found it entirely dependant on my opponent's draw. Did they draw combo interaction? Did they draw a lot of it? Did they draw a little and back to back reality smashers? You probably lose all those games, not enough time to combo them off. Any other scenario - little disruption or slow clock - you just do the same old elf ball thing.

I guess my only tip is, if you want a sideboard slot for this matchup, pick one that isn't blown up by ratchet bomb easily. It is very common in my local eldrazi lists. If that's not the case online....go nuts.

[Lemnear]

I play a few matches against my friend who is new to eldrazi (aren't they all at this point?) and it seemed ok.

I played very combo piece heavy deck (many 4 ofs of the combo specific elves) with a packmaster and rec sage for good measure. Really all I did was abrupt decay lock pieces and hope the start wasn't extremely exposive so I would have 2+ turns of set up then you just combo them. NO or a turn of glimpse + make tons of chump blockers for NO next turn is good enough.

The matchup only went south when they drew many (key is multiple, one is usually not good enough) interactive cards that had a mix of attacking board and hand. For example 2 thought knot seers really sucked and made it hard to recover from a well timed warping wail or dismember.

It's not really interesting to play, I found it entirely dependant on my opponent's draw. Did they draw combo interaction? Did they draw a lot of it? Did they draw a little and back to back reality smashers? You probably lose all those games, not enough time to combo them off. Any other scenario - little disruption or slow clock - you just do the same old elf ball thing.

I guess my only tip is, if you want a sideboard slot for this matchup, pick one that isn't blown up by ratchet bomb easily. It is very common in my local eldrazi lists. If that's not the case online....go nuts.

Nice strawman to talk about Warping Wail & Dismember, while dodging the question of how you wanna "combo" with Chalice @ 1 on the Table and you're struggling to get Decay/GSZ-->Sage going, if your mana production is under pressure of Wasteland & Jitte

[starfox444]

while dodging the question of how you wanna "combo" with Chalice @ 1 on the Table and you're struggling to get Decay/GSZ-->Sage going, if your mana production is under pressure of Wasteland & Jitte

You just have to hope to dodge it or be able to cast decay off your one forest and bayou that's about to get wastelanded. There's not much to discuss about it IMO, unless I'm missing something, maybe you can explain? Either we decay their chalice or we do nothing at all, in which case there is nothing to discuss.

If they pressure you with wasteland and jitte and you find no time to hit with abrupt decay, then you're dead.

That's how I felt the matchup to go - it was entirely dependant on their draw. If they had good pressure and many sideboard cards, you're a goner. If they draw pretty bad and you get time to cast decay, you get them.

[Lemnear]

You just have to hope to dodge it or be able to cast decay off your one forest and bayou that's about to get wastelanded. There's not much to discuss about it IMO, unless I'm missing something, maybe you can explain? Either we decay their chalice or we do nothing at all, in which case there is nothing to discuss.

If they pressure you with wasteland and jitte and you find no time to hit with abrupt decay, then you're dead.

That's how I felt the matchup to go - it was entirely dependant on their draw. If they had good pressure and many sideboard cards, you're a goner. If they draw pretty bad and you get time to cast decay, you get them.

Have you checked metagame data for Eldrazi numbers in the metagame? The idea of "well, if I face them and they do not draw/keep absolute garbage, I will lose. No need to adjust the deck." is one of the reasons Elves dropped out of the DtB section. Eldrazi is NOT a fringe deck you can ignore for deckbuilding matters. Giving away every game 1 and hoping you get away in Game 2 & 3 with 3 Decays only is ridiculous at this point of metagame development.

Edit: the top 2 decks by a landslide lock out 1cc spells as their primary gameplan by enchantments/artifacts. Why not stock up these to create cardadvantage?

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q601/ValeLemnear/40F22E45-083B-461C-A8F8-8D5C74532EF0_zpskijw3lef.jpg

[Echelon]

B/c they make the cast-1-CMC-stuff-plan worse..?

Oh, and b/c they're not as nice as yours. Obviously. Perhaps if we get Rebecca Guay to come up with an art for that Reclamation Sage...

I'm still wondering why the 1 mana plan isn't just maindecking 4 Abrupt Decay. It's a much needed "fuck you" to so many things. Just toss out the Cradles and do it to it.

[starfox444]

Have you checked metagame data for Eldrazi numbers in the metagame? The idea of "well, if I face them and they do not draw/keep absolute garbage, I will lose. No need to adjust the deck." is one of the reasons Elves dropped out of the DtB section. Eldrazi is NOT a fringe deck you can ignore for deckbuilding matters. Giving away every game 1 and hoping you get away in Game 2 & 3 with 3 Decays only is ridiculous at this point of metagame development.

Edit: the top 2 decks by a landslide lock out 1cc spells as their primary gameplan by enchantments/artifacts. Why not stock up these to create cardadvantage?

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q601/ValeLemnear/40F22E45-083B-461C-A8F8-8D5C74532EF0_zpskijw3lef.jpg

In my previous post I say how the much up felt to me based on my games, but while thinking about it at work today I thought it really is a crap position to be in.

I agree. I think our altered friends are the way to go, going forward. I have no strong opinion of the exact numbers though.

[Zombie]

B/c they make the cast-1-CMC-stuff-plan worse..?

Oh, and b/c they're not as nice as yours. Obviously. Perhaps if we get Rebecca Guay to come up with an art for that Reclamation Sage...

I'm still wondering why the 1 mana plan isn't just maindecking 4 Abrupt Decay. It's a much needed "fuck you" to so many things. Just toss out the Cradles and do it to it.

Not sure if they'd fit - you'd have to stock up on 4 Heritage Druids and Nettle Sentinels to compensate. A couple maindeck Decays and more consistent Glimpses don't sound bad either way. A more Shardless-esque direction seems like a good place to go, anyway. And you'd have to slot in a land because even if Cradles suck, they're still the second land often enough.

Cradle-less Chaos Elves, 61 cards:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Llanowar Elves
3 Quirion Ranger

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers

1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest

3 Cavern of Souls
1 Pendelhaven
1 Dryad Arbor

[MD.Ghost]

Lemnear is right about the fact, that Eldrazi is not an uncommon Matchup or random Tier2 stuff like MUD. While i knew both - Eldrazi and Elves - well enough i would say matchup can still be 50:50, because Elves aren't defeated with only Chalice @1, it still needs pressure like fast Seer/Smasher, some Removal and/or Wastelands (to avoid Decay/Sage).

Cavern helps (against Eldrazi without Wastelands) against Chalice and Elves can still be a force on the field thanks to all the green dudes especially Best Friend Combo or stuff like Packmaster. You simply should be prepared to fight G1 against Chalice, because Chalice belongs to DtB section for a while :tongue:

I would recommend 1 Packmaster and 1 R. Sage Main and (at least) 1 more Sage at Side (Lemnear is right here, because a tutorable and cavernwise uncounterable removal on a stick for Chalice&Counterbalance is way better than one more Decay/answer that needs Splashcolor). The good news for Elves are, that DnT is DtB again and all the BGx decks (that are good vs Eldrazi/Stompy) are also good matchups for Elves. Thanks to Eldrazi performance Storm and other Combo Decks are on the decline.

[Lemnear]

B/c they make the cast-1-CMC-stuff-plan worse..?

Oh, and b/c they're not as nice as yours. Obviously. Perhaps if we get Rebecca Guay to come up with an art for that Reclamation Sage...

I'm still wondering why the 1 mana plan isn't just maindecking 4 Abrupt Decay. It's a much needed "fuck you" to so many things. Just toss out the Cradles and do it to it.

Would Decays kill much more than Sages, given the later leaves behind a 2/2 body for Nettle/Symbiote/Cradle/Attack/etc?

[Echelon]

Would Decays kill much more than Sages, given the later leaves behind a 2/2 body for Nettle/Symbiote/Cradle/Attack/etc?

Delvers, Gaddock Teeg and assorted other buggers (since we're talking about MD'ing them). It's rather that it can't be countered and costs 1 mana less. Running GSZ + 3 Sage = running GSZ + 1 Sage + 2 Abrupt Decay (to some extend, obviously). That 1 mana can be the difference between life and death.

[Lemnear]

Delvers, Gaddock Teeg and assorted other buggers (since we're talking about MD'ing them). It's rather that it can't be countered and costs 1 mana less. Running GSZ + 3 Sage = running GSZ + 1 Sage + 2 Abrupt Decay (to some extend, obviously). That 1 mana can be the difference between life and death.

The "extend" is pretty mayor here imo as we talk about cardadvantage and potential recycle of the EtB of Sage in addition to it's body if we compare Sage vs Decay (Decay vs GSZ is nonsense as I would not cut SB Decays even with more MB Sages).

[Echelon]

CA and recycling are useless when you're dead. In my opinion we're comparing a 2 mana answer to a 3/4 mana answer.

Blow stuff up first, generate CA later.

[Lemnear]

CA and recycling are useless when you're dead. In my opinion we're comparing a 2 mana answer to a 3/4 mana answer.

Blow stuff up first, generate CA later.

Delver kills in three turns? Or is in regards to being locked under Chalice while opponent "goes kratos" with Eldrazi beatz (which is a point to consider for sure)?

Jokes aside, my friend. I support stocking up MB removal for Enchantments/Artifacts since the rise of SFM/Vial/Jitte/Chalice/SneakAttack/Omniscience/etc. in general and just want to discuss pros & contras of mono-green vs. Green/Black mana as well as the value of being an Elf & 2/2 vs being uncounterable in regards to several possible matchups with Eldrazi among them. I think of potential value of the 2/2 body after destroying a counterbalance to create cardadvantage AND put up a clock with a single card against Miracles to make up for Terminus trades, or the cmc restriction in case of one of the befordmentioned enchantments and of course also about Decay as a tool to stall certain decks clocks. :)

Edit: I think, that if we leave NO behind, we finally have the slots for new tools, but have to remain a certain access to our toolbox even with 4 less tutors

[Echelon]

I guess it'd be best to do some testing with it. The validity of either is probably very metagame dependant. Vs. Miracles you'll probably get away with GSZ into Reclamation Sage, vs. Eldrazi you'd probably prefer to AD their lockpiece T2 so you can start fighting back ASAP.

Don't forget Reclamation Sage is only 2/1 though, no matter how beautiful they are :tongue:.

[Lemnear]

I guess it'd be best to do some testing with it. It might very well be incredibly metagame dependant. Vs. Miracles you'll probably get away with GSZ into Reclamation Sage, vs. Eldrazi you'd probably prefer to AD their lockpiece T2 so you can start fighting back.

Don't forget Reclamation Sage is only 2/1 though :tongue:.

My bad about the toughness ;p

Every choice is metagame dependant, but we seem to agree that trying to get away with 4 GSZ + 1 Sage with such an oppression by Miracles & Eldrazi is tad lose and adding only 3 SB Decay is no turning point to reliable fight back games 2 & 3 in common matchups. Its up to testing which density tool or actual solution to common permanents fares best across the possible matchups

[Echelon]

My bad about the toughness ;p

Every choice is metagame dependant, but we seem to agree that trying to get away with 4 GSZ + 1 Sage with such an oppression by Miracles & Eldrazi is tad lose and adding only 3 SB Decay is no turning point to reliable fight back games 2 & 3 in common matchups. Its up to testing which density tool or actual solution to common permanents fares best across the possible matchups

Seconded!

[cavalrywolfpack]

Hello all! I'm new to the discussion here, and I was wondering if this is the place to talk about ALL Elf decks or just the Glimpse of Nature combo builds? I've got a more aggro-based list that I want some opinions on.

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[Zombie]

Hello all! I'm new to the discussion here, and I was wondering if this is the place to talk about ALL Elf decks or just the Glimpse of Nature combo builds? I've got a more aggro-based list that I want some opinions on.

More for the Elfball ones. Though calling even this a combo deck is a bit of an exaggeration. It's a midrange deck first, a combo deck second.

[cavalrywolfpack]

More for the Elfball ones. Though calling even this a combo deck is a bit of an exaggeration. It's a midrange deck first, a combo deck second.
I'm using combo a little (ok, a lot) loosely.

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[Echelon]

I'm using combo a little (ok, a lot) loosely.

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Why not just post the list and wait for some opinions?

Warning: Make sure you wear the proper safety gear before doing this.

[Zombie]

Why not just post the list and wait for some opinions?

Warning: Make sure you wear the proper safety gear before doing this.

Potential safety hazards include getting rapped on and yelling Lemnears.

[Echelon]

And yes, that's 2 p's.

Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

It's been a while though. He never really managed to recover after Ogre Tea. It's hard to follow up such a masterpiece. No wonder the pressure got to him, poor guy.

Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

[cavalrywolfpack]

Why not just post the list and wait for some opinions?

Warning: Make sure you wear the proper safety gear before doing this.
Better deploy the hatebears. This is a budget list, but I'm tinkering it slowly.
Creature (34)
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Elvish Champion
3x Elvish Mystic
1x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
2x Fyndhorn Elves
3x Imperious Perfect
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Priest of Titania
1x Quirion Ranger
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Sylvan Messenger
1x Terastodon
1x Wirewood Symbiote
Sorcery (7)
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Natural Order
Land (19)
1x Dryad Arbor
18x Forest

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[Echelon]

Uhm... Lemnear..?

Please be gentle.

Maybe a power ballad. Or a slow jam.

[cavalrywolfpack]

Uhm... Lemnear..?

Please be gentle.

Maybe a power ballad. Or a slow jam.
*braces for impact*
Yes, I'm new to legacy. No, I'm not in a super competitive setting. This is mostly for the occasional LGS event. Yes, this is a more aggro based approach, and I understand that there are a lot of things that need to be fixed with this list. That's why I'm posting it. Again, this was a budget list I found that I'm using as a template. I just want to see what needs to be added.
Annndddddd I just noticed the inexcusable absence of Elvish Visionary.
Maybe I deserve to die now.
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[Lemnear]

Potential safety hazards include getting rapped on and yelling Lemnears.

Rofl


And yes, that's 2 p's.

Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

It's been a while though. He never really managed to recover after Ogre Tea. It's hard to follow up such a masterpiece. No wonder the pressure got to him, poor guy.

Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

Atomrofl.

Edit - found it:




Lights!

Camera!

Action!

http://rappingmanual.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/earlsweat.jpeg

This ain't the Legend of Zelda, but a Link to your Past?;
Wanna waste slots in da board, 'cause of all the matches you've lost?;
Tell your local burn player, the show's over;
The discussion's so-so, Peter's posts pwn posers!;
I wrote a rap, motherfucker! Hope your reading it too;
Giving specific instructions how to fuck with burn players like you;

Wanna burn me out after I got Ruric down?;
You better re-read Mike Flores' "Who's the beatdown?";
You think, killing my creatures is destructively?;
I got a million elves - they die for me!;
I know that you like to think you're so macho;
But you can play your deck with one hand while eating some nachos;
I work hard for my wins, while you and your boyfriend Steve;
Just keep tapping a Mountain for dealing me three?;
Look, we all want to win, kid, but you took it too far;
You played butthole roulette and you lost the draw!;
Are you already afraid? Am I smelling some pee?;
Yo, Homeboy! Finish this rhyme for me!;

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/ur/ur241_m6ig5xh4z2_1.jpg

They call me Ruric Thar, you wanna mess with me?;
I'll put my balls in your mouth like Ogre tea!;
I got an axe on my arm! Yeah, I steal the show!;
6 damage to your face for every spell, you know?;
I don't tap for attacking, so you can't get past me;
This battle's your last judgement, Trust me!;


Now hand me some of these:

http://static.djbooth.net/pics-playlists/grammys.jpg

[bcoutlander]

Not sure if they'd fit - you'd have to stock up on 4 Heritage Druids and Nettle Sentinels to compensate. A couple maindeck Decays and more consistent Glimpses don't sound bad either way. A more Shardless-esque direction seems like a good place to go, anyway. And you'd have to slot in a land because even if Cradles suck, they're still the second land often enough.

Cradle-less Chaos Elves, 61 cards:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Llanowar Elves
3 Quirion Ranger

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers

1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest

3 Cavern of Souls
1 Pendelhaven
1 Dryad Arbor

So, have you had a chance to play this version?

[Julian23]

3x Sylvan Messenger
1x Wirewood Symbiote


http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/apwe.gif

Way too much mana for this small amount of business. And with more expensive lords, no Cradle and almost no untap effects for the Lords, the deck is easily 2+ turns slower than regular Elves. I understand that you're working on a budget here, but you should still be playing 4 Wirewood Symbiote before anything else. Blanking Equipment and setting up a draw engine with Visionary is just amazing. And even though Sylvan Messenger kinda helps with what you wanna do, you'll probably find yourself wanting to draw a non-Elf card surprisingly often in long grindy matches. And unlike Visionary it also gets worse post-board.

[Zombie]

Better deploy the hatebears. This is a budget list, but I'm tinkering it slowly.
Creature (34)
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Elvish Champion
3x Elvish Mystic
1x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
2x Fyndhorn Elves
3x Imperious Perfect
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Priest of Titania
1x Quirion Ranger
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Sylvan Messenger
1x Terastodon
1x Wirewood Symbiote
Sorcery (7)
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Natural Order
Land (19)
1x Dryad Arbor
18x Forest



You have 8 untappable Cradle effects, and Imperious Perfects need to be untapped to do anything scary. You have two untappers in a list full of absurdly juicy targets. I second Julian, load up on Visionaries, Quirion Rangers and especially Wirewood Symbiotes ASAP. The cards are going to be absurdly good and aren't expensive at all.

The kind of build you have is going to be an absolute champ at making shittons of mana, so you want something to do with the mana. Ezuri is good for that. 3 Sylvan Messengers, not as much. You want to hit those Zeniths for a big Hoof. 1-2 Messengers, max. Load up on Wren's Run Packmaster and a second Hoof. Maybe a second Ezuri. Just stuff. You have so much explosive mana generation, you need bombs and broken effects to play with that mana. Right now you just don't have nearly as much as you could.

[cavalrywolfpack]

So what do I cut for all of this stuff. And I agree it is far slower then it should be

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[Zombie]

How about something like this?

4 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Imperious Perfect

4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary

2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves


2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

19 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

[cavalrywolfpack]

How about something like this?

4 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Imperious Perfect

4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary

2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves


2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

19 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
I'm guessing Elves is one of those decks that occasionally runs 61 cards?

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[Echelon]

Switch 5 Forest for 4 Quirion Ranger and 1 Fyndhorn Elves. 14 land is enough.

Edit: Quirion Ranger is already in there, my bad.

Go to 14 land anyways and perhaps stock up on mana dorks. T1 dork into T2 Quirion Ranger gets you a lot of bang for your buck.

Heritage Druids and Nettle Sentinels also work. And so does Concordant Crossroads.

[cavalrywolfpack]

Are Heritage Druids a must? $17 uncommons that are not unreprintable seems pretty sketchy

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[Echelon]

They help. A lot. Birchlore Rangers would be a budget option. Concordant Crossroads can also mimic it, in a way. Chaining Priests and Archdruids is a lot of fun. Wirewood Symbiote suddenly allows you to untap 2 of those bastards, and so on.

[Zombie]

Goddamn, I was still living in some happier, 09-y world where Heritage Druids were like $2 or something.

[Echelon]

Goddamn, I was still living in some happier, 09-y world where Heritage Druids were like $2 or something.

I joined Legacy when I found out my Glimpse of Natures were no longer crap rares, lol.

My idea of a casual Elf deck was Glimpse of Nature + Skullclamp... Have been running Glimpses since they came out, got them for 1,50 each. Luckily I was just in time for Heritage Druid :smile:. And I thought 2,50/piece was expensive at the time. Look at me now, dammit.

[Zombie]

I joined Legacy when I found out my Glimpse of Natures were no longer crap rares, lol.

My idea of a casual Elf deck was Glimpse of Nature + Skullclamp... Have been running Glimpses since they came out, got them for 1,50 each. Luckily I was just in time for Heritage Druid :smile:. And I thought 2,50/piece was expensive at the time. Look at me now, dammit.

Had to fork about 10-20€ a piece for mine, I think? The NOs, though. Read Tinker. See it's not banned in Legacy for some reason. 3€ a piece, you say? Don't mind if I do. And just after that they printed Progenitus.

[Echelon]

Yeah... Those were the first expensive cards I got. Not the most expensive cards I own anymore, but that's a different story. They were at the time and boy was I excited to have them.

[Julian23]

I only realized how expensive they have gotten when I sold some extra copies to a dealer. Back then he offered 2,50 € each and I was like "Sorry for the misunderstaning, they're not foil". He: "I know." Me: :eek::eek::eek:

[Echelon]

That goes for a lot of cards. Sucks hard for new players. That first time you fork over a bunch of cash for just a few pieces of cardboard is such a tres-OMGLOL-hold (or at least it was for me).

I'd happily have all my cards worth a dime/card if it'd get WotC to print whatever we want in bulk. Just send them a list and a couple of bucks and have it delivered at home. Buying sleeves for all the decks I'd build would be a completely new strain on my bank account!

[dwarshaw]

I started playing Julian's chaos elves at the beginning of the month and have managed a ridiculous 21-4 record in the legacy leagues since then. The deck is definitely challenging to play but without NO I think it is pretty well positioned against the current MTGO metagame with tons of miracles (2-1), storm (2-1), sultai (3-0) and eldrazi (2-0).

Here are some thoughts on the list
1. I never once missed natural order. Against the FoW decks (50% of my matches) NO is too risky and you would rather play a grindy game. Against the comb decks (25% of my matches) NO is actually too slow and you need to be the control role and hit them with all the disruption possible in games 2&3.

2. For the grindy(opponent is on the mono removal plan) matches I found Wren's run packmaster to be a total beating for when you cannot muster enough mana to cast craterhoof. It is also fantastic against tarmogoyf and eldrazi while being surprisingly relevant against the stoneblade decks where you sandbag it until you can cast it and guarantee value some how (cavern, symbiote, floating mana to make wolves) even if they have swords to plowshares. I would've been happy to cast it in about 50% of my matches.

3. Two caverns are a must in the current metagame. They were all-stars against chalice of the void decks (5 matches), miracles (3 matches), and all other FoW decks (another 8 mathes for a total of 16/25 matches). It was incredibly relevant in a number of games that I sandbagged a cavern and named beast with it on the turn I planned to win.

4. Gaddock teeg and scavenging ooze were somewhat disappointing while shaman of the pack was surprisingly good. The reason being that the former two don't synergize with symbiote and were not super relevant in most of my matches, so they were usually strictly worse GSZ targets than elvish visionary. However, I would definitely leave them in as they did pull their weight in the games that mattered.

Overall I loved the deck and highly recommend giving it a try. I also included my match log to give people a sense of how the games played out.


Eldrazi stompy W2-1
g1 chalice on 1. g2 op kept a land heavy hand and I won on t4. g3 op kept a 2x chalice hand and I had plenty of 2-drops and a cavern
dredge W2-1
g1 comboed on t2. g2 mulliganed into a slow hand but so did op and I eventually got ooze going ftw. G3 struggled to find a dredger especially after extracting trolls
sultai delver W2-0
g1 super grindy with DRS, symbiotes and visionaries. G2 GSZ for wren's run packmaster on T3 ftw
UB thopter sword W2-0
g1 t1 chalice answered by rec sage and shaman won through ensnaring bridge. G2 abrupt decay for 1st chalice, duress 2nd chalice and rec sage + symbiote ftw
esper stoneblade W2-0
g1 very grindy with 2x symbiote, visionary and shaman with rec sage for jitte. G2 abrupt decay for jitte left op with few threats and sylvan library for the grindy
zoo L1-2
g1 drew 7 lands. G2 t3 glimpse combo. G3 pithing needle on wren's run packmaster :-(
TEPS W2-1
g1 op had t2 win on the play. G2 2x DRS put pressure on op who had to mini tendrils just to survive. G3 opponent fizzled
Grixis delver W2-0
g1 op kept one land wasteland hand. G2 op ran out of gas and I held the ground with wren's run until I could find enough mana to glimpse
burn W2-0
g1 t2 glimpse. G2 glimpse fizzled by drawing 5 lands but op had nothing to win on the next turn
shardless sultai W2-1
g1 toxic deluge + hymn blowout. G2 packmaster + cradler ftw. G3 packmaster MVP
miracles W2-1
g1 drew 7 lands vs 3x STP. G2 op had no terminus. G3 extracted STP and 14 damage with DRS with packmaster to protect it through terminus
ELVES!! W2-1
g1 op had 2x glimpse while I was stuck with 7 mana and a craterhoof in hand. G2 cradle + heritage druid on t2 craterhoof on t3. g3 t3 hoof again
show and tell L1-2
g1 t3 griselbrand on a mull to 5. g2 t1 duress and op never found anymore action. G3 whiffed with 3 glimpses
miracles W2-0
g1 op never found terminus and I had symbiote/visionary going. G2 ground through 3x terminus and 3x stp with 2x cavern and pendelhaven (mvp)
punishing zoo W2-0
g1 multiple visionaries allowed me to grind through punishing fire. G2 pendelhaven + symbiote, visionary > punishing fire. finished the game with packmaster
miracles L0-2
g1 I get very unlucky and play right into 3x truly miraculous terminuses G2 kept a 1 lander and didn't get there through 2x counterbalance + jace
8-rack W2-0
g1 op concedes to symbiote + visionary. G2 t2 smallpox wrecked me. But op ran out of gas and I eventually ground back into the game
Eldrazi stompy W2-0
g1 shaman of the pack + symbiote drain for 18. g2 dump my hand on t2 with symbiote + visionary and hoof on t3
shardless sultai W2-1
g1 attack for 100 after wren's run stabilization. G2 2x wasteland and toxic deluge wrecked my glimpse turn. G3 nettle sentinel stompy ftw
dark maverick W2-0
g1 t2 glimpse t3 glimpse t4 hoof. G2 t2 value glimpse rec sage the jitte then get wrecked by zealous persecution but rebuild and hoof 2 turns later
esper deathblade W2-1
g1 t2 glimpse win. G2 wasteland screwed. G3 messed up my glimpse chain by not using GSZ to get symbiote and was left with no action but found the hoof in the end.
ANT L0-2
g1 slow hand with no interaction. G2 disfigure for teeg and thalia
imperial painter W2-1
g1 t2 grindstone combo. G2 extracted grindstones and symbiote + recsage. G2 2x glimpse to dig for a bayou so I could abrupt decay + extract grindstones
merfolk W2-0
g1 op concedes to t3 glimpse. G2 cast a hoof through a cavern on t5
ANT W2-1
g1 op t1 win on the play. G2 t3 hoof. G3 messed up my glimpse turn by playing 2 glimpses and leaving myself with 0 floating mana, but teeg got there.

[cavalrywolfpack]

Another (probably stupid) question: does Elves just lose to itself sometimes? I've had issues where I dump my hand and fail to find a payload. These are just goldfish games (suggested in the primer to familiarize myself with triggers), but it still feels weird when I can't find GSZ or NO. Awesome report dwarshaw! Do you mind posting the list?

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[dte]

Another (probably stupid) question: does Elves just lose to itself sometimes? I've had issues where I dump my hand and fail to find a payload. These are just goldfish games (suggested in the primer to familiarize myself with triggers), but it still feels weird when I can't find GSZ or NO.

No, elf doesn't lose to itself.
You should not see it as a purely combo deck: if you fail to find a NO, glimpse, GSZ or the Visio-WS engine, surely you have a bunch of creatures? Just attack with them, and drain your opponent with DRS.

[Echelon]

When in doubt, smash face.

[square_two]

No, elf doesn't lose to itself.
You should not see it as a purely combo deck: if you fail to find a NO, glimpse, GSZ or the Visio-WS engine, surely you have a bunch of creatures? Just attack with them, and drain your opponent with DRS.

Small situations might crop up where you should sandbag small, increasingly useless creature or two in hand in case you draw into a glimpse. But that's not going to happen very often, and usually if you have a lot of creatures then you naturally have some sort of engine going on.

[Curby]

Hey folks, now that Elves isn't running NO, I can almost build it ... I'm mostly just missing 2 Cradles.

Assuming http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12034&d=269005&f=LE is a good list to start from, what should I run in place of the 2 missing Cradles?

The conventional wisdom used to be to replace missing Cradles with that many Crop Rotations, but I'm not sure I need 3 maindeck Rotations. Any thoughts? Thanks!

[Echelon]

You can stock up on Heritage Druids/Birchlore Rangers in lieu of Crop Rotations/Cradles.

[Curby]

Sure, I might try a second Birchlore and second Crop Rotation, unless someone has a better suggestion. Thanks!

[Lemnear]

The conventional wisdom used to be to replace missing Cradles with that many Crop Rotations, but I'm not sure I need 3 maindeck Rotations. Any thoughts? Thanks!


Cradles be like... (https://45.media.tumblr.com/76af089906b71a3b0e9eff2e7c31ac74/tumblr_o0ef38ALEG1tamedoo1_500.gif)

[AznSeal]

So I haven't been keeping up with elves for a while. Is Natural Order obsolete now? It was one of my favorite cards T.T

[Lemnear]

So I haven't been keeping up with elves for a while. Is Natural Order obsolete now? It was one of my favorite cards T.T

Its not obsolete. Just kinda unnccessary as a way to kill; too slow against combo (unless you have a nut draw); bad draw against counter or after a sweeper.

[AznSeal]

Its not obsolete. Just kinda unnccessary as a way to kill; too slow against combo (unless you have a nut draw); bad draw against counter or after a sweeper.

Ah so now it's seen as a win more? Makes our good matchups better, but our bad matchups worse?

How do you think the meta will have to shift for NO to be good again? It's just strange because I see the SCG lists still run NO.

[Echelon]

People are still divided on the matter.

@Lemnear: Wow, I made the sig over matt's Porsche rant. I'm honored!

[Lemnear]

Ah so now it's seen as a win more? Makes our good matchups better, but our bad matchups worse?

How do you think the meta will have to shift for NO to be good again? It's just strange because I see the SCG lists still run NO.

Wouldn't call it win-more as its too negative. I'd rather say, that you can realistically and reliable win through beatz w/o NO anyways so you don't "have" to run questionable topdecks like Hoof/NO/Progenitus in a field full of Miracles (FoW or Terminus) and Chalice (countering most Elves to turn on Hoof/NO), tiven that NO is pretty unreliable to hate combo in time.

Don't point to SCG as the people are slow adapting new techs unless they top8 in a mayor event and people get pointed their nose at it and simply netdeck. We see this all the time also in other archetypes, so don't break sweat if TheSource is simply faster then most other sites adjusting decks to shifting metagames. For NO to be a mayor trump again, the metagame is needed to shift to fairer matchups which you can walk over with Hoof and the like


@Lemnear: Wow, I made the sig over matt's Porsche rant. I'm honored!

this was just very close to something nice said about me. Basically the snowflake in the desert

[AznSeal]

Thanks for the info! I have to try chaos elves now. Hopefully the meta changes so I can unleash NO again.

Now for the important question: I have been having my deck altered and the MD is now done. It's time for the SB now and I've decided to get my abrupt decays altered to show our enemy's decaying. So far one copy is going to be Delver of Secrets decaying. Any ideas for the other 2? Jitte? Chalice? Goyf?

[Zombie]

Thanks for the info! I have to try chaos elves now. Hopefully the meta changes so I can unleash NO again.

Now for the important question: I have been having my deck altered and the MD is now done. It's time for the SB now and I've decided to get my abrupt decays altered to show our enemy's decaying. So far one copy is going to be Delver of Secrets decaying. Any ideas for the other 2? Jitte? Chalice? Goyf?

Goyf is not an enemy. Goyf is food. Counterbalance is an enemy. Canonist and Containment Priest are enemies.

[AznSeal]

Goyf is not an enemy. Goyf is food. Counterbalance is an enemy. Canonist and Containment Priest are enemies.

Hmm I forgot about those haha! Canonist, Priest, Counterbalance, Jitte seem like 4 elf enemies. However I may want to stick with more "general" enemies in case I want to switch the Decays to another deck.

[Curby]

Just get them to write the following on the card:


http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&type=+![%22Land%22]+![%22Sorcery%22]+![%22Instant%22]&cmc=+%3C=[3]

Bases: covered. :tongue:

[MrBurp]

Played with Chaos Elves in a 63 people event in Mol yesterday. Got 11th place.

M1: vs. Death & Taxes
G1: Didn't have a spectaculair fast start and after a few turn my opponent has a Flickerwisp and a Mirran Crusader, equiped with Swords of Fire and Ice in play, facing my army of small dudes and most notably a Scavenging Ooze, an untapped (and not summoning sick) DRS and the possibility to generate 2 green mana. I'm at 13 life and my opponent is able to deal me 15 points of damage. Completely ignoring my DRS he goes for it and I'm able to win on the following turn.
G2: He sees little to no relevant action, spare a Ethersworn Canonist that I can Abrupt Decay. 3 Wirewood Symbiote + Shaman of the Pack kill him off.
Result: 2-0 win, 1-0 overall

M2: vs. Shardless BUG
G1: Had a pretty good board during the entire game. Cradle and GSZ for x=8 are enough to make my opponent scoop.
G2: The combination off discard and removal let me end up with a hand of Forest and double Glimpse. Meddling Mage naming Glimpse spells doom for me and a few turns later I'm dead.
G3: I'm able to resolve a Garruk Relentless. My opponent is able to kill him, leaving him open for a swing followed with a lethal Shaman of the Pack drain.
Result: 2-1 win, 2-0 overall

M3: vs. Infect
G1: At some point during the game I was able to GSZ for a Gaddock Teeg which I neglect to do. It ends up costing me the game.
G2: I remember my mistakes from G1 and I GSZ a Gaddock Teeg in play. It still ends up being close, but again SotP saves the day with an exactly lethal drain.
G3: GSZ for Gaddock Teeg T2, and him seeing only creatures what I can easily chump all day with Wirewood Symbiote in play. No (castable) boost spells let me take over the game slowly but steady. DRS drains, in combination with Symbiote get me there.
Result: 2-1 win, 3-0 overall

M4: vs. Infect
G1: He ends up being a turn faster then me. Pretty sure I would have at least locked him on my following turn.
G2: Goes exactly as G1. I have the kill on my following turn, but he takes a great line (Dazing one of his own spells to have exactly enough for a lethal Become Immense). At this point I miss my Modern Elves sideboard with Melira.
Result: 0-2 loss, 3-1 overall

M5: vs. Eldrazi
G1: Probably my worst game of the entire tournament. Kept a bad hand and got punished severely.
G2: I have no clue how to sideboard, G2 ends up being closer, but in the end I came to short.
Result: 0-2 loss, 3-2 overall and out of T8 contention

M6: vs. Miracles
G1: Both me and my opponent, despite not being able to T8, want to play (and win) the last game. G1 ends up being a grindy affair. He manages to stabilize (read, Miracle Terminus) for the second time when he's at one. I'm able to GSZ SotP for the final point.
G2: He has my board under control, despite not seeing any Terminus the entire game (Top + Counterbalance lock still is a thing). Not wanting to run into Terminus I GSZ for x=6 with Cradle, grabbing a DRS (my 8th Elf, opponent is at 9). I play a second Cradle, a second GSZ (again, x=6, making the manacost 7 and thus avoiding Counterbalance). I grap SotP and drain for lethal.
Result: 2-0 win, 4-2 overall.

As I've already mentioned, this puts me in eleventh place, a result that pleaces me (partially because eleven translates to "elf" in Dutch, my mother tongue).

My findings for today:

Infect is a bad match-up? The first match was really close, the second I didn't stand a chance. I might be wrong, but the match-up defenitely doesn't feel good according to me.
Eldrazi isn't that good of a match-up either it seems. I can't see me winning that one. Am I wrong? How to sideboard properly here? Any intell is welcome!
Shaman of the Pack is sick! Is it ok for me to like SotP better then Craterhoof :eek: ?


After the tournament I was able to pick up a copy of Karakas. So at this point I'm running Julian's exact 75, spare for 2 Birchlore Rangers and 1 Llanowar Elves in stead of a 1-2 split.

[Nargoron]

Played with Chaos Elves in a 63 people event in Mol yesterday. Got 11th place.

M4: vs. Infect
G1: He ends up being a turn faster then me. Pretty sure I would have at least locked him on my following turn.
G2: Goes exactly as G1. I have the kill on my following turn, but he takes a great line (Dazing one of his own spells to have exactly enough for a lethal Become Immense). At this point I miss my Modern Elves sideboard with Melira.
Result: 0-2 loss, 3-1 overall



Typical...
i played around 10games last week against infect and all the time one turn behind. I felt hopeless without NO in this MU.

[dte]

Typical...
i played around 10games last week against infect and all the time one turn behind. I felt hopeless without NO in this MU.

That is a surprise for me, as I always desided most NOs in this MU and never found it hopeless.
The only real threat is Inkmoth Nexus, for which you have at least two needles that you can easily play daze & pierce proof. The MU is about even, at worse slightly unfavourable.
NO is a liability here, as in most U MUs.

[Nargoron]

That is a surprise for me, as I always desided most NOs in this MU and never found it hopeless.
The only real threat is Inkmoth Nexus, for which you have at least two needles that you can easily play daze & pierce proof. The MU is about even, at worse slightly unfavourable.
NO is a liability here, as in most U MUs.

the thing is:
withou NO you have only glimpse to win 3th turn...
with NO you have 7-8 to be able do that
So your first game without SB is better with NO build.

But yea, after sideboard it was much much better, exactly 2 needles against nexus and decays are helpful and it doesnt matter if you have NO or not cose you can slow him down.

Btw against eldrazi its the same, i felt much more comfortable with NO first game, cose of chalice...

[dte]

the thing is:
withou NO you have only glimpse to win 3th turn...
with NO you have 7-8 to be able do that

But yea, after sideboard it was much much better, exactly 2 needles against nexus and decays made difference

Well if you try to win via NO t3 you better have to deside them. Playing a NO T3 is most often just asking to lose to a counter by making CdA and losing a turn by fulltaping yourself. Post SB it is not a race at all, and you should play a control role.

They have very few blockers, so killing them is not the problem as just attacking do the trick. Your only focus is not to be killed. And preside the prospects are not that great. Hopefully post side the MU is quite great.

I do not see any reason to keep Teeg G2 & 3 too. At best it blocks their 1-of become immense, which they should most probably have desided.

[Julian23]

Got 14th out of 187 players at OvinoSpring in Milan on the weekend. Went 6-2 with a list sans Gaddock, Crop Rotation and Karakas. Combo has pretty much died out over here and I only saw something like 1-2 Storm players anywhere in the entire building. Some known Storm guys like Pascal Wagner were present but didn't even play because of Eldrazis. So I figured I'd just play a more streamlined list. I would have loved to add more Miracle/Shardless/BUG Delver hate to the main because I was expecting them to show up quite a bit, but couldn't really come up with something I liked. Maybe there's something good that I missed, because I didn't really think too much about what to do with those two maindeck slots as I just wasn't really "feeling it" the entire weekend.

A more detailled report will go up on my website later this week once we manage to solve some server issues.

Here's what I played:

Maindeck
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Choke
1 Null Rod
1 Garruk Relentless

Changes from the previous list:
Main:
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Crop Rotation
-1 Llanowar Elves
+1 Heritage Druid
+1 Nettle Sentinel
+1 Birchlore Rangers

SB:
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Karakas
+2 Choke
+1 Abrupt Decay

If you're not running Gaddock, I feel 2 Birchlore is better than 2 Llanowar Elves.

Here's what I played against:

Round 1 — 4c Delver — 0:2 LOSS
Round 2 — Elves — 2:0 WIN
Round 3 — Shardless BUG — 2:0 WIN
Round 4 — Miracles — 2:1 WIN
Round 5 — Shardless BUG — 2:1 WIN
Round 6 — Miracles — 1:2 LOSS
Round 7 — Manaless Dredge — 2:0 WIN
Round 8 — Rw Goblins — 2:1 WIN
6-2 for 14th out of 187.

[ljackstar]

Alright currently considering making the switch to Chaos elves, but I have a couple questions first.

1. I play at 2 stores, one has a meta of Miracles, storm, dredge and RUG Delver (as well as some other decks that change week to week but these are the most consistent), the other store if full of shardless bug, and lands. Would you keep the karakas/teeg list for this kind of meta or is your most recent list better off.

2. What would the meta have to change to for you to play the NO version again? Or do you think Chaos elves is just better overall

EDIT: Just thought of another one:

3. How good is pendelhaven? Is it better than just the second dryad arbor or a second forest? I feel like the one extra damage is probably not worth it most of the time, and it doesn't protect our guys from bolts or plows, while opening us up to wasteland.

[Lemnear]

Alright currently considering making the switch to Chaos elves, but I have a couple questions first.

1. I play at 2 stores, one has a meta of Miracles, storm, dredge and RUG Delver (as well as some other decks that change week to week but these are the most consistent), the other store if full of shardless bug, and lands. Would you keep the karakas/teeg list for this kind of meta or is your most recent list better off.

2. What would the meta have to change to for you to play the NO version again? Or do you think Chaos elves is just better overall

EDIT: Just thought of another one:

3. How good is pendelhaven? Is it better than just the second dryad arbor or a second forest? I feel like the one extra damage is probably not worth it most of the time, and it doesn't protect our guys from bolts or plows, while opening us up to wasteland.

The first question answers itself imo. Why bring the same list to two different metas? The Second question was answered two pages ago. Third, I cannot answer that easily, as it depends on your number of 1/1s, the manabase and the metagame you expect, which is highly variable. Its not about Wasteland, its about potential 2/3 attackers/blockers and their value.

[Nargoron]

Alright currently considering making the switch to Chaos elves, but I have a couple questions first.

1. I play at 2 stores, one has a meta of Miracles, storm, dredge and RUG Delver (as well as some other decks that change week to week but these are the most consistent), the other store if full of shardless bug, and lands. Would you keep the karakas/teeg list for this kind of meta or is your most recent list better off.

2. What would the meta have to change to for you to play the NO version again? Or do you think Chaos elves is just better overall

EDIT: Just thought of another one:

3. How good is pendelhaven? Is it better than just the second dryad arbor or a second forest? I feel like the one extra damage is probably not worth it most of the time, and it doesn't protect our guys from bolts or plows, while opening us up to wasteland.

2. for me its better NO version
I played on thuesday against Death and Taxes, dredge, infect, goblins and farie monoblue.
In every MU i was glad for my NO, even monoblue with heavy counter armory.( With chaos elves i had something like agaist that monoblue 3:7 score, with NO its the opposite way...)

3. Pendelhaven is just amazing... when you play long pesky game against miracles, you get the value of pendelhaven (and not just against miracles).

[Julian23]

Pendelhaven is insanely amazing. Play it. Very often it's not +1 damage but actually like +5 damage per turn.

[Nargoron]

Pendelhaven is insanely amazing. Play it. Very often it's not +1 damage but actually like +5 damage per turn.
yea exactly...
you can affort to attack with all your guys to his 2/2 defender...
You dont have to be worry about snapcaster casted to block
It could be helpful vs. punnishing fire and all -1/-1 effect
and so on...

ok,there is a downside... you can't use pendelhaven in tricks with quirion ranger... but cons totaly worth it :)
Especialy in build with crop rotation...

[Zombie]

Pendelhaven is insanely amazing. Play it. Very often it's not +1 damage but actually like +5 damage per turn.

Also just insane vs. Miracles. Allows you to not overcommit to the board but maintain a better damage output. It's just a general allstar card.

[Julian23]

My favorite Pendelhaven memory is saving a Nettle Sentinel from Umezawa's Jitte with it. Opponent's jaw dropped to the table.

[shopshopshop]

My favourite recent Pendelhaven encounter is an opponent telling me I should attack a Heritage Druid into his Deathrite Shaman. I did so, he blocked, and I Crop Rotationed for Pendelhaven. Victory.

[ljackstar]

OK well I'm sold on pendelhaven, and probably on no NO as well. The only other question I kinda have is how good is karakas? I see basically no show and tell, against reanimator I either can't can't bounce it (see grave Titan) or it has already done damage (elesh nor, grisilbees drawing 7-14). And if our plan is to bounce merit lage against lands we have probably already lost, since punishing fire Grove is our biggest enemy there, and it probably only works once because of Port and wasteland

[Julian23]

Karakas is a nice bonus, not a requirement. You gotta decide on your own how good you wanna be vs which deck.

Don't underestimate Crop Rotation into Karakas vs Lands. Marit Lage definitely is the main problem as we have little to no power of it otherwise. Punishing Fire is slow and can be dealt with. The battle we're fighting is to fall behind tempowise through turns 1-3.

[haganbmj]

Been trying something different.

StuffLandSideboard
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
3 Natural Order
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Pendelhaven
1 Savannah
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Pithing Needle
1 Disfigure
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Abrupt Decay

Played a GPT last weekend.
R1: 2-0 v Miracles
R2: 2-1 v Dega Stone/Pyro/Confidant
R3: 2-0 v Sneak and Show
R4: ID
R5: ID
T8: 1-2 v UR Thing in the Ice

Played a local $20-entry event this weekend.
R1: 2-1 v Shardless BUG
R2: 2-1 v Grixis Delver
R3: 1-2 v Infect
R4: 2-0 v Death and Taxes
T4: ID / Split

It's been fine-ish. Ruric has been decent lately because I've been running into some different matchups from what I usually do. It's been stuck in my hand a couple times due to lack of red, but otherwise fine - Cavern can mitigate that a bit.

[Julian23]

Check out my report of Elves at this year's OvinoSpring in Milano: Chaos Elves at OvinoSpring 2016 — Groundhog Day (http://itsjulian.com/?p=2128)

[AznSeal]

http://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/urlrw,40/main-legacy-decklists,c317.html?event=18&evt=18

That elf list though LOL

78 Cards MainDeck

1 Karakas
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Regal Force
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Savannah
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
2 Birchlore Ranger
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Windswept Heath
3 Crop Rotation
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
4 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiot



Sideboard 15
1 Maze of Ith
1 Blood Moon
1 Choke
1 Crop Rotation
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ezuri's Archer
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Abrupt Decay

[ScottW]

Maybe a recording error. There are other amusing errors in the top 8 deck lists.

[blind]

No No, it's correct :)

#connard(t)efrançais

[Julian23]

It's definitely correct. I talked to the guy yesterday and he actually played 78 in the main:-) Last
time he played before BoM was 6 months ago when he won a 150 player event with his List.

Those are the real Chaos Elves!

[Diogo37]

Omg hahahahahahhaha

its funny to see this deck

i really like to see playing

[Nargoron]

Interesting decklist O.o
But i am not sure if this land toolbox and extend zenith/order toolbox worth for inconsistenc.


Last Saturday i was on local tournament and i was beaten by Elves combo (i had NO list):

Seedcradle Witch
Skyshroud Elf
Priest of titania/Elvish Archdruid

First game:
i played first, but can't kill him my t3 (glimpse failed in drawing lands)
Game 2:
even i had Thoughtseize i can't break his combo (entire on the opening hand + zenith and chord of calling) and again can't kill him t3 -.-
I saw this gay onec on tournament and he beat all miracles and had some good result with his deck :)

For me it was little bit unlucky, but whatever... entire tournament was one big disaster.
score 2:3 on the end
win against Reanimator and Dredge
lose against this elves, RU delver and Burn
Matches against burn was ridiculous...
G1: Died on double Price of Progress
G2: i can't win second game even 2xNO and 1x Glimpse... cose i draw behemoths from topdeck and glimpse just gave me bunch of lands

[chewemy]

The player is DTE, he'll make a report so he can explain is crazy decklist :)

For me i finished 34 for my first BOM, could've finish 10 but did a really bad mistake, i'll try to make a report this week.

It was nice to meet Julian (signing Glimpse for another french player)

[dte]

It's definitely correct. I talked to the guy yesterday and he actually played 78 in the main:-) Last
time he played before BoM was 6 months ago when he won a 150 player event with his List.

Those are the real Chaos Elves!

Hi Julian, it was a pleasure meeting you. I guess there was a small misunderstanding here: 6 months ago I won with a more or less classical list (still over ten one-slots main, but no crop rotation), and then during 6 months I didn't play magic.

BoM was the first time I tested the list, not even playtests with friends or cockatrice. It's part of why I played it: convinced that I didn't play since a while (I had never played against Eldrazi for example), I decided to play a list I would have at least a lot of fun to play with. And something which has a better game against this Eldrazi, which seems to be scary by reading this thread.


Interesting decklist O.o
But i am not sure if this land toolbox and extend zenith/order toolbox worth for inconsistenc.


It definitely isn't. The list was surprisingly good, but for competitive purpose, I will go back to 60-61.
Some cards have got my attention though: KotR, Waste, Titania.
I think I will try to build something starting from chaos elves, but featuring these 3 cards in the Teeg, Shaman of the pack and sylvan library slots (starting from this Julian's list: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12209&d=270198&f=LE).
If anybody have better suggestions, I would like to hear it.

For non competitive purpose, however, I will try something else: Julian told me he liked his MD jitte, so I will try one, together with a LW package of SFM, Magus of the moon, mirror entity and lands.
Otherwise, the most disappointing card of the list is Regal Force. I would like to try Fauna shaman over it.

[Nargoron]

It definitely isn't. The list was surprisingly good, but for competitive purpose, I will go back to 60-61.
yea.. but looks cool! :P


Some cards have got my attention though: KotR, Waste, Titania.

Chm.... its like crossbreed (is it a right word? :-x) elves with maverick...


Otherwise, the most disappointing card of the list is Regal Force.

Yea hoof is better... and when u cant kill opponent cose your elves are tapped, then simply shaman of the Pack do the job.


I would like to try Fauna shaman over it.
i rly like this card, but the summoning sickness... kill this card on legacy :(

[Echelon]

For Fauna Shaman you could try 3 Concordant Crossroads to turn it into a semi-SotF. Just make sure you run 4 Quirion Rangers and 4 Wirewood Symbiote and you're almost ready to run 4 Vengevine.

I'm not sure if that's still strong enough to get the job done though.

[dte]

Yea hoof is better... and when u cant kill opponent cose your elves are tapped, then simply shaman of the Pack do the job.


I really do not like Shaman that much, as I feel it does not win games you are actually losing, while winning only games you're already winning. That's why I prefer WRP, which is usually better at the job. Also, if I put KotR in, the 3-manas winning target is here.
Hoof is also not that good, I cannot see myself playing more than a copy even with 4 NOs, because often even if it can be lethal, a couple of answers are possible. In these cases, I often go for a target which put my opponent in a terrible board state, even if he has answers that can trump a hoof. I will of course always play one, it is that good I do not think I ever desided it, but I do certainly not want a second one.

During this WE, my most common NO target was Titania (and I didn't lose a single game were I had it on board at one point), then Ruric, hoof and Wurm (about each of them came as often as the others). But Regal? Be it GSZ or NO, I didn't search for it a single time.



i rly like this card, but the summoning sickness... kill this card on legacy :(

Not completely, before DRS, the Fauna-VV lists were pretty strong.
But the fauna proposition was for the fun list, not for an optimized one ;)
In it I can see myself even trying some copies of chord, or eledamri's call.

I guess my answers or comments may look a bit messy, because on one hand I speak about slots that interest me in the building of an "optimized, competitive" deck (i.e. 61 cards max), on the other hand, of slots that interest me for my elf list with a longer list. Play this last one for a good laugh (and still quite a shot at very good results), not if you really only care about the highest chances of winning.


Concordant crossroads is not playable if beside fun, you also want a shot at having good results, clearly. It is a quite bad card. Fauna can be a one off that can be tutored T2, and give you a running WS-EV engine T3. Worth trying (in the fun, big list).

[Nargoron]

I really do not like Shaman that much, as I feel it does not win games you are actually losing, while winning only games you're already winning.
There are situation when you combo in huge number of dudes but with summoning sickness and you HAVE to win this turn.
But yea , i didnt win much game with him.



During this WE, my most common NO target was Titania


No love for safekeeper if u like titania?



In it I can see myself even trying some copies of chord.

Thats exactly what iam missing on ,,Chaos" elves... next tutors, next strong card, becouse without NO you lose 3-4 tutors.

[dte]

There are situation when

hundreds of cards are good, even winning silver bullets in some situations.
This goes for both SotP, safekeeper and chord.

They are playable of course, and SotP is even OK, especially if you do not play NO as you need some raw power.
About chord: if you're missing NO, why not to play one? You can just play one NO in chaos elves, even if you unfortunately draw both of your one-of, it can tutor WRP.

These are my theoretical concerns about the cards you mentioned.
They won't prevent me to try a couple of chord and/or eladamri's call in my fatty list, though. They look like interesting cards to play with, additional tutors at instant speed.

[Nargoron]

hundreds of cards are good, even winning silver bullets in some situations.
This goes for both SotP, safekeeper and chord.

They are playable of course, and SotP is even OK, especially if you do not play NO as you need some raw power.
About chord: if you're missing NO, why not to play one? You can just play one NO in chaos elves, even if you unfortunately draw both of your one-of, it can tutor WRP.

These are my theoretical concerns about the cards you mentioned.
They won't prevent me to try a couple of chord and/or eladamri's call in my fatty list, though. They look like interesting cards to play with, additional tutors at instant speed.
i already did :)

my list is:
2xbayou
2xCavern of souls
2xForest
4xGaea's Cradle
1xPendelhaven
1xVerdant Catacomb
2xWindswept Heath
4xWooded Foothills
1xDryad Arbor

2xBirchlore rangers
1xCraterhoof Behemoth
4xDeathrite shaman
4xElvish Visionary
3xHeritage Druid
4xNettle Sentinel
4xQuirion Ranger
1XReclamation Sage
4xWirewood symbiote
1xWren's Run Packmaster

1x Sylvan Library

2xChord of Calling
1xCrop Rotation

4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Glimpse of Nature
+ 61th card: SoPt or give a try with titania? :) but probably she needs more fetchs/rotations...

edit: ofc zenith is included... just forget to write :P

[dte]

i already did :)
+ 61th card: SoPt or give a try with titania? :) but probably she needs more fetchs/rotations...

Nice list.
If I just had to add a 61st card to your list, it would be Knight of the reliquary. It is amazingly good against Eldrazi - being bigger than their threats, untapping with it against miracle give you access to Cavern of souls, but mostly your 2x Chord 4x GSZ makes you mana-hungry, and a beast able to give you 2-3 Cradle T3-4 is worth considering.

Otherwise I think 7 fetch + a crop should be enough for give a shot at Titania, but without Wastelands to recur and NOs to get Titania, it won't be as good as it was in my strange thing.

[Echelon]

i already did :)

my list is:
2xbayou
2xCavern of souls
2xForest
4xGaea's Cradle
1xPendelhaven
1xVerdant Catacomb
2xWindswept Heath
4xWooded Foothills
1xDryad Arbor

2xBirchlore rangers
1xCraterhoof Behemoth
4xDeathrite shaman
4xElvish Visionary
3xHeritage Druid
4xNettle Sentinel
4xQuirion Ranger
1XReclamation Sage
4xWirewood symbiote
1xWren's Run Packmaster

1x Sylvan Library

2xChord of Calling
1xCrop Rotation

+ 61th card: SoPt or give a try with titania? :) but probably she needs more fetchs/rotations...

2 Chord of Challing but no Green Sun's Zenith..? Did you forget those..? Do I need to call Lemnear..? What's going on here?

[Julian23]

Here's an Elves deck tech video Yannick Salomon recorded with me at ‪#‎BoMAnnecy‬, check it out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqmGIF0IoZ8

[dte]

2 Chord of Challing but no Green Sun's Zenith..? Did you forget those..? Do I need to call Lemnear..? What's going on here?

You also missed the glimpse absence ��

Isn't Lemnear always begging for the elf players to be innovative?

[Curby]

@Julian: Interesting to see you drop the anti-combo team of Thalia and Teeg. The Chord and Call ideas of recent posts would make it easier to find Thalia, but I guess you're banking on the meta not making the white cards necessary.

[Nargoron]

You also missed the glimpse absence ��

Isn't Lemnear always begging for the elf players to be innovative?
yea i missed entire sorcery block :D
(probably confused by instant block , its not cammon to have ,,block" of instants in elves ^^ )


Nice list.
If I just had to add a 61st card to your list, it would be Knight of the reliquary. It is amazingly good against Eldrazi - being bigger than their threats, untapping with it against miracle give you access to Cavern of souls, but mostly your 2x Chord 4x GSZ makes you mana-hungry, and a beast able to give you 2-3 Cradle T3-4 is worth considering.

Otherwise I think 7 fetch + a crop should be enough for give a shot at Titania, but without Wastelands to recur and NOs to get Titania, it won't be as good as it was in my strange thing.
KoTR is cute.. BUT
for being bigger then eldrazi - he needs to spent lots of time in the game to be able do that and still dont be tapped
yea some triple acctivation per turn with quirion and symbiot could be awesome but without wastelands KoTr is just not enough good in my oppinion :(
yea double cradle idea looks pretty cool, but there is too much condition. The first problem is, that if you spent your zenith for Kotr, you dont have for what spent double cradle mana
and fetch for cavern is little bit naive, cose how long KoTr survive against Miracles?
We dont have mother to keep him alive, so thats drive me back to SotP. He has more synergy with rest of the deck then KotR



edit:
Chord was replaced by 2 copies of Natural order, becouse chord is good when play go well, sucks when u r screwed...
Which drive me to switch SotP for Ruric and basic forest for taiga...

[chewemy]

Hey everyone, here my report from the BOM Annecy:
It was my first BOM and the biggest event I went, the only other event was the legacy France cup last year. I didn’t play legacy since October so I went with elves obviously (best deck ^^), I decided to play the chaos elves but switch to the Natural Oder version the night before the event due to Eldrazi, I was expected a lot of them.
So here we go:

R1 – turbo depth : 2-1 against someone I play at my store (all this km for nothing). Game 1, he went T1 explore to T3 the 20/20 monster, I tried to win with a glimpse but drew 2 lands which lost me the game. Game 2 was really quick, T2 glimpse to NO Craterhoof. Game 3, he kept an awkward hand with toxic deluge, engineered plague and 4 lands, win t3 with NO.

R2 – 4C Delver: 2-1, hey another one for my home. Game 1, he bolt or counter nearly every creature, after some turn the best friend combo drew me to many cards for him to interact and win with a hard cast Behemoth after a counter on NO. Game 2, mull to 5 card without a land in my first 3 hands to 0 to the last hand; drew my fetch on the 3 turn but it took stifle, quick shuffle to game 3. Game 3, counter my t1 deathrite, t2 1 deathrite + symbiote, t3 decay his flip delver, he couldn’t attack with his TNN because of my elves and he was countering all my spells, deathrite won the game.

R3 – Shardless : 1-1 Game 1, I land a deathrite after his own, he put 2 more on the battlefield and start to kill all my creatures with decay, dismember and my life with his deathrite, I was blocked on 1 land. Game 2, I let him destroy my elves and resolved an ooze for the win. Game 3, he resolved a grafdigger’s cage but my decay was already on his flip delver; time was call and he countered my only windows to win: reclamation sage with 2 NO in hand.

R4 – Miracles : 2-0 Game 1, I only saw 3 sword + 1 rest in peace so i was putting him on a UW Control side in decay, library and choke. Game 2, he countered my 2 first elves and resolved a T3 counterbalance (miracles :eyebrow: ), I attacked him with 3 elves by turn, at one point he tried to find a terminus on my combat steps but only found a sword, I slammed choke with only a fetch untap and no cards in hand, it was game.

R5 – Blue red control: 1-2 Game 1, T2 engineered explosives T3 Blood moon; I wasn’t expecting this, he burned my elves with fire//ice, I resolved a T6 Ruric, next game. Game 2 and 3 felt hopless between the fire//ice, snapcaster to replay them, and sudden demise. This deck is an horrible matchup for elf.

R6 – Shardless : 2-0 Game 1 and 2 were really quick, nothing to say.

R7 – Mix between pox and 8 rack : 2-1 Game 1 T1 zenith for dryad, he played innocent blood, T2 Liliana of the veil, T3 and T4 pox, T5 and T6 sinkhole. Game 2, library and ooze won me the game after an engineered plague on elves. Game 3 T1 liliana ok, I played T1 pithing needle, the next turns he only played land, library help me to filter and win 2 turns after. He showed me his side against elves : 4 engineered plague, 2 toxic deluge and 2 perish, I was happy that he didn’t drew perish.

R8 – UWR Delver : 2-1 Game 1 was a quick glimpse with 2 NO. Game 2, 2 flip delver with counter and burn backup, was finished quickly. Game 3, 2 deathrite + quirion ranger won me the game after the counters and burn spells.

R9 – BUG delver : 1-2 This was the most pathetic lost for me, biggest misplay which lost me the 10th place. Game 1, I kept with 1 bayou, 1 deathrite 1 glimpse, 2 NO and 1 Nettle and 1 heritage; I went with t1 deathrite against his t1 dismember, t2 waste bayou, followed up by me not drawing lands. I should’ve mulligan this hand but was to exhaust :frown:. Game 2 was a quick win. Game 3, mana screwed again but played my elves, he drew a timely golgari charm to kill my elves, he was dead on the next turn with NO.

Finished 34, at 2 steps of 32 and the BOM points but it was my fault and could’ve finished 10.
I didn’t play against Eldrazi so I don’t know if NO or Chaos elves is better.
It was a fun tournament, I’ve met Julian and saw DTE again with his crazy list, it was nice to speak with him and win with his TIN FIN against his elves toolbox.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask. (sorry for my English guys).

[Julian23]

I'll post a more detailed report next week after MKM Frankfurt, but here's my matchups from BoM Annecy:

R1: 2-1 WIN vs TinFins
R2: 2-1 WIN vs Fauna Shaman Maverick (Feature Match)
R3: 2-0 WIN vs 4c Delver
R4: 1-2 LOSS vs UWr Delver (he had tested vs "my list" a lot and decided to add lots of Lavamancers :cry: )
R5: 2-1 WIN vs Death's Shadow
R6: 2-1 WIN vs Canadian Threshold
R7: 2-1 WIN vs Miracles
R8: 2-1 WIN vs Miracles
R9: 0-2 LOSS vs ANT(Win-And-In Feature Match)
7-2 for 19th out of 302 players

Here's the list I played:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Craterhoof Behemooth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren’s Run Packmaster
1 Shaman of the Pack

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea’s Cradle
2 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Winter Orb
1 Null Rod


Was very happy with the deck. Pretty much beat all the matchups I was supposed to beat. The loss against UWr Delver didn't feel good, but at least I tried and won every game he didn't start with turn1 Lavamancer ;-)

More extensive report scheduled for next week! It was so awesome to meet so many of you guys in person in Annecy <3

[Curby]

So I can't apply my own sig here cause I don't yet know the deck well enough (at least I got Cradle #3 yesterday!) but is there any room to have a "half-chaos" or transformational deck where the NOs can be either moved in or out of the side, or having just 2ish in the main? I imagine it doesn't work because no one's done it and I doubt the idea is that novel. Any thoughts?

[dte]

R9 – BUG delver : 1-2 This was the most pathetic lost for me, biggest misplay which lost me the 10th place. Game 1, I kept with 1 bayou, 1 deathrite 1 glimpse, 2 NO and 1 Nettle and 1 heritage; I went with t1 deathrite against his t1 dismember, t2 waste bayou, followed up by me not drawing lands. I should’ve mulligan this hand but was to exhaust :frown:. Game 2 was a quick win. Game 3, mana screwed again but played my elves, he drew a timely golgari charm to kill my elves, he was dead on the next turn with NO.
[...]
It was a fun tournament, I’ve met Julian and saw DTE again with his crazy list, it was nice to speak with him and win with his TIN FIN against his elves toolbox.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask. (sorry for my English guys).

I would probably have keep your hand too, not that many 6s are better than that. BUG has very few 1 mana removal MD, usually no more than 1-2.
Not sure that you lost because your mulligan decision was bad or because your opponent's hand was really good against yours, which happens. It was a pleasure seeing you!



1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Winter Orb
1 Null Rod


May you tell us more about jitte? It seems hard to put counters on it without losing a creature, it is good enough to be worth it nevertheless?

Also, why did you decide to use winter orb over pithing needle?

And can you tell us how and against which MUs Garruk is that good that it kept being in your SB?


So I can't apply my own sig here cause I don't yet know the deck well enough (at least I got Cradle #3 yesterday!) but is there any room to have a "half-chaos" or transformational deck where the NOs can be either moved in or out of the side, or having just 2ish in the main? I imagine it doesn't work because no one's done it and I doubt the idea is that novel. Any thoughts?

I'm pretty sure it can work. The idea is not that novel, but it has definitely been done. The thing is, that NO is a very polarized card: an empty sleeve in some (common) MUs, your best card against others. When I play a "classic" elves, I usually put 4 NOs main to save SB space and because it is really that good vs ANT (less than Teeg, though). But post SB, the most common numbers are 0-2.

[Nargoron]

May you tell us more about jitte? It seems hard to put counters on it without losing a creature, it is good enough to be worth it nevertheless?

My experience:
I tried one in SB and against delver is rly amazing. Ok first loading probably cause you to sacrifice one elf. But when is jitte loaded? 4/5 Goyf looks little and tiny :) cose your 1/1 can kill him.
DnT is next great MU for jitte and even miracles can jitte shine as superstar, cose your 1/1 is now much more danger. Often force opponent to waste teminus only cose of one mana dork.

[abombdiggity]

Got second at a 1k this afternoon with the following list.

Creatures:30
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

Spells:12
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

Lands:18
2 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:15
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Progenitus
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library

I knew the field was going to be pretty heavily BGx, so I tailored the SB to include a WRP, which I found myself loving while testing out Julian's Chaos lists. I didn't miss pendelhaven at all- the ninth fetch ended up allowing me to operate cleanly through a blood moon and around wastelands all day, but it was purely a metagame call. Moving forward I might end up running one, but am considering a second cavern in its place. I understand that it's a little more conservative than a lot more recent lists but I'm pretty set in stone about 8 fetches, 4 cradles, and two each of arbor, forest, and bayou. In the matchups where cavern is impactful(counterbalance/chalice) you realllly want to see it, and since I'm running the full four NO it is very important to be able to resolve a critical mass of elves. I'll miss the occasional point of damage or favorable trade from a quick +1/+2, but I'm not entirely sure it's better than a second Cavern.

[mariobross]

I wanted to ask to Julian what is his side-plan against miracle with his list...

And where can I find the video of mkm series frankfurt?

Thanks

[Dair]

Julian, thanks for posting your list and the deck tech video. After watching and reading, I decided to try your list for my first large legacy event at the SCG Indy. I went 5-2 in matches played and drew into the top 32 (our breakers were bad and neither of us would have made top 16 with a win). I lost to storm that went off turn 2 in both games (I may have made a mulligan mistake in game 2; still pondering if I would keep again) and Dark Maverick 2-1 thanks to his 4 Wasteland draw beating my mull to 5. I won against Nic Fit, Jund, Miracles, Dredge and Merfolk. I made a ton of mistakes on the day, so might have picked up another win if I had played tighter.

Overall, I really like this version of the deck. Jitte was an all-star, as was Cavern of Souls in the Miracles matchup. I look forward to continue trying this list out and hearing your more detailed report.

[Julian23]

Sorry I haven't been able to answer a lot of questions lately. I'm thinking about doing a mailbag article like Bryant often does, but I've been really busy over the last 1-2 months. There's big things to come. Sooner than you expect. Be prepared :)

On related news, I haven't finished my Annecy report yet. Ok, that was a nice way of putting it. I haven't even had time to start it yet, but the overall structure has already been laid out in my head. I will probably merge it with my MKM Frankfurt report, where I played last week, but let's see. For now, here's the "raw data":

R1: *BYE*
R2: 1-2 LOSS vs BUG Thing in the Icea, because I'm stupid and would rather check the artwork than textbox for abilities.
R3: 2-0 WIN vs Eldrazis
R4: 2-1 WIN vs Belcher
R5: 2-0 WIN vs BUG Delver
R6: 2-0 WIN vs 4c Delver
R7: 2-0 WIN vs Esper Humility Control with Chalices and Sword Combo
R8: 1-2 LOSS vs ANT
R9: 2-0 WIN vs ANT
R10: 2-0 WIN vs BUG Pod (74/75 similar to Jonas' Top8 list; no Broodmate Dragon)
8-2 for 19th out of 420+ players. Missed Top16 on Tiebreakers.

Here's the list I played in the Main Event:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Craterhoof Behemooth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren’s Run Packmaster
1 Shaman of the Pack

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea’s Cradle
2 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Null Rod


On Sunday I played in the playoffs of the Legacy Super Finals of the 2015 season. I reasearched all qualified players the night before to predict the metagame and build my deck/sideboard appropriately. I expected a field with a heavily Miracles pressence, but also some 4c Delver and Lands. I expected almost literally zero combo, so these are the changes I made to the above list for that special meta:

-1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Llanowar Elves

And this sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Garruk Relentless

Needless to say my round 1 opponent, whom my researched had put on Miracles, started the game with turn1 Swamp into Duress. #FML
Here's how the event went for me:

Round of 16: 2-1 WIN vs ANT
Quarters: 2-0 WIN vs 4c Delver (was it 2:1?)
Semis: 2-1 WIN vs BG HexDepths
Finals: 1-2 LOSS vs RGb Lands

The finals was one of the most amazing matches of Magic I ever played. The surrounding spectators were losing their minds that there wasn't video coverage of it. More in my actual article, but here's a preview: game2 I passed for about 7 turns with just 4 lands and no creatures or Planeswalkers in play. Then I killed my opponent. No, without Glimpse. Yes, it was crazy :) Would have loved to win the MKM contract sponsorship that was up for grabs, but I'll try again next season :)

[Shagstaman]

Finals: 1-2 LOSS vs RGb Lands

The finals was one of the most amazing matches of Magic I ever played. The surrounding spectators were losing their minds that there wasn't video coverage of it. More in my actual article, but here's a preview: game2 I passed for about 7 turns with just 4 lands and no creatures or Planeswalkers in play. Then I killed my opponent. No, without Glimpse. Yes, it was crazy :)...

Sounds bonkers...I can imagine it!

edit: I'm dumb, GP Prague same day as GP Columbus =(

[dte]

Wha, congrats Julian!

Amazing results as usual!
I hope you'll do as well in GP Prague and will like to see your posts/articles.

I notice that you continue on the jitte and no Teeg MD, sold on on that?
And no love for even a single NO with no Teeg?

[.Ix]

I've been on a tear lately in our locals going 4-0, 2-2, 4-0, and now 3-1 for three first place finishes with some stock NO lists, except I once played Taiga and Ruric + Slaughter Games to deal with Omnitell. Still losing to the highly irritating mono black ritual reanimator strategies. I got turn 1 killed TWICE in a match, and would have died turn 2 game 2 if I didn't find a T1 Deathrite hand. I guess I'm going to have to run 3 Surgicals because we don't have playoffs after swiss here.

I have yet to try the Chaos lists, and I understand the idea behind them, but I'm worried that without some NO, the deck can't close games fast enough while disrupting random combo decks, which are pretty big around here. How do the combo matches usually go with Chaos lists?

[Nargoron]

I have yet to try the Chaos lists, and I understand the idea behind them, but I'm worried that without some NO, the deck can't close games fast enough while disrupting random combo decks, which are pretty big around here.

Same here....

[Zombie]

I have yet to try the Chaos lists, and I understand the idea behind them, but I'm worried that without some NO, the deck can't close games fast enough while disrupting random combo decks, which are pretty big around here. How do the combo matches usually go with Chaos lists?

I mean, Chaos Elves is a metagamed list. It's not a universal panacea. The combo it's built to be good against is Storm and to a lesser extent S&T. If Teeg/SotP/Karakas aren't relevant, you'll probably get more value out of NO than anything. But if a lot of that random combo is Storm, Teeg is just better than NO. Easier to get down on T2 or GSZ for during Glimpse, which is huge G1.

[Julian23]

Except for when running Ruric Thar, I've never been very interested in Natural Order vs Storm. It can sometimes win games, but more often it's a card I don't want in my opening hand.

This is the general approach I go for when playing vs ANT:

1. Get them to 12 or less life
2. Have DRS + Quirion Ranger on the board.

Everything else is just on-top as it's less reliable. Teeg gives you another great play on turn2 in the first game. Still ok in the second and third game, usually buying you at least one more turn of additional beats.

For me, the main quality of going chaos is not having Natural Order in your deck anymore. The card is ok, but I think I can win the vast majority of games without.

[.Ix]

It's actually not ANT. The combo decks I've played here lately are Reanimator, All Spells, Omnitell, and Infect. The meta is very small so I run into them a LOT.

Julian23, I definitely agree that NO is really awkward against combo G1. It's usually just too slow. I also agree that most non-combo Game 1s are just as good or better without NO. However, I have had many Game 2s where the win slipped through my fingers because I couldn't kill them fast enough after some disruption, and that's when I do have NO postboard. How do you find these matchups Game 2?

Zombie, yeah you're probably right. I don't think I'll get much value from Teeg around here. Karakas seems good but as a 1-of it doesn't seem reliable even with crop rotation. I also get paired against Miracles a lot, so I'm still interested in trying it out.

[Zombie]

It's actually not ANT. The combo decks I've played here lately are Reanimator, All Spells, Omnitell, and Infect. The meta is very small so I run into them a LOT.

Julian23, I definitely agree that NO is really awkward against combo G1. It's usually just too slow. I also agree that most non-combo Game 1s are just as good or better without NO. However, I have had many Game 2s where the win slipped through my fingers because I couldn't kill them fast enough after some disruption, and that's when I do have NO postboard. How do you find these matchups Game 2?

Zombie, yeah you're probably right. I don't think I'll get much value from Teeg around here. Karakas seems good but as a 1-of it doesn't seem reliable even with crop rotation. I also get paired against Miracles a lot, so I'm still interested in trying it out.

Against that kind of meta I'd just load up on Ooze, Jitte and a Crop Rotation for Bog or something. NO is just too slow against those kinds of things and not very good vs. Infect IMO. They'll Force it and kill you, and you have to force it because they're as fast as you are.

[Julian23]

The reason I cut NO was because it's been the most sided-out card for me by far; so no, I've never really had the experience that I wanted to kill someone "as quickly as I can".

[Nargoron]

Against that kind of meta I'd just load up on Ooze, Jitte and a Crop Rotation for Bog or something. NO is just too slow against those kinds of things and not very good vs. Infect IMO. They'll Force it and kill you, and you have to force it because they're as fast as you are.

I played some games against sneak and show thursday and all the time it was the same:
i have to kill him as soon as possible, despite the fact, that he counter at least my "first attempt for victory turn"
so glimpses alone wasn't enough of "victory cards"

And i was surpriced how is this deck strong against distractions with discards... - hit 2x show and tell and in brainstorm is sneak attack.... so try to stop him wasn't effective. just kill him...

[Julian23]

Sneak Attack shouldn't be a deck to be concerned about. If you're building your deck specifically for a certain local meta, go ahead, but when entering a GP, SCG, MKM, BoM etc, what you should primarily care about is beating Shardless, Miracles, Delver and ANT. Maybe D&T, Lands, 4c Loam, Infect and then Sneak Show.

[Nargoron]

Sneak Attack shouldn't be a deck to be concerned about. If you're building your deck specifically for a certain local meta, go ahead, but when entering a GP, SCG, MKM, BoM etc, what you should primarily care about is beating Shardless, Miracles, Delver and ANT. Maybe D&T, Lands, 4c Loam, Infect and then Sneak Show.
That's true... but just saying, with NO i feel much more confortable and competative in this MU despite the fact its cammon deck to deal with or not...
On the other hand you mentioned "Maybe D&T, Lands, 4c Loam, Infect" thats still MU where i want to see NO in my main( at least 2 copies ).
D&T - ofc...
Lands next ooze tutor or better chance to kill faster
4c Loam - especialy when playing Chalice
Infect - for me its the similar idea as against Sneak and show => you have to kill him faster then he could kill u.. ok its not the same but the basic idea for victory is the same

[Animal]

I started building and playing a budget version of combo elves last year, now it comes to 1 year of having this deck and finally I bought the rest of Cradles and Bayous to make it a full list. I've had good results and bad results, I think my best result was 5-3 and worst yesterday's tournament with 1-4 (the 1 win was a bye).

Here is my list that I ran yesterday:

Creature (28)
1x Birchlore Rangers
2x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Quirion Ranger
1x Reclamation Sage
4x Wirewood Symbiote

Land (20)
2x Bayou
2x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
4x Gaea's Cradle
1x Pendelhaven
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills

Sorcery (12)
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order

Sideboard (15)
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Choke
2x Null Rod
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Surgical Extraction
3x Thoughtseize
1x Wren's Run Packmaster

Matchups were the following:
0-2 vs Miracles
0-2 vs Necroting Ooze combo
0-2 vs Infect
*** bye ***
1-2 vs TES

Upon this I realized, I have no idea what to sideboard out in most of matchups. People have been talking about sideboarding out Natural Order and even creating Chaos Elves as a deck because of that. However when looking at (an outdated) sideboard guide, I realized there is no matchup where it is said that you should sideboard out all Natural Orders.

Can you please explain to me in which matchups would you sideboard out Natural Order? And in which matchups you just "thin the deck" by sideboarding out one of each cards Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel, Glimpse of Nature, Quirion Ranger, Birchlore Rangers, Craterhoof Behemoth, and maybe Natural Order?

I am attending GP Prague with elves and I thought I was prepared. Well clearly I am not. If you have any tips about my list, please comment on those. I think first things I will do is to fit Sylvan Library into 75, insert at least 1 Pithing Needle into sideboard (maybe in place of Null Rod), and add also Ruric Thar, the Unbowed into sideboard for pesky Infect and Storm matchups.

[Julian23]

I remember that in my earlier sb guides I usually left in NO most of the times. After a couple of years of playing the deck I changed my mind on this in a lot of matchups. When I still played NO, I used to side them out vs any kind of Delver, Miracles, Sneak Show (depending on how good/bad my sb was), even 2-3 vs Shardless BUG and all vs Infect. In the end I used to side them out in almost 80% of matches I faced so I was happy to drop them. Still, I'm not 100% comfortable to head into a GP without them as they will probably give you at least some free wins vs inexperienced players or bad decks.

On another note, i finally finished my Bazaar of Moxen Annecy report: It's got a lot of content, pictures as well as several feature match and deck tech videos! Have fun! :-)

Check it out on my website: Bazaar of Moxen Annecy with Elves - by Julian Knab (http://itsjulian.com/?p=2211)

[Diogo37]

I remember that in my earlier sb guides I usually left in NO most of the times. After a couple of years of playing the deck I changed my mind on this in a lot of matchups. When I still played NO, I used to side them out vs any kind of Delver, Miracles, Sneak Show (depending on how good/bad my sb was), even 2-3 vs Shardless BUG and all vs Infect. In the end I used to side them out in almost 80% of matches I faced so I was happy to drop them. Still, I'm not 100% comfortable to head into a GP without them as they will probably give you at least some free wins vs inexperienced players or bad decks.

On another note, i finally finished my Bazaar of Moxen Annecy report: It's got a lot of content, pictures as well as several feature match and deck tech videos! Have fun! :-)

Check it out on my website: Bazaar of Moxen Annecy with Elves - by Julian Knab (http://itsjulian.com/?p=2211)

nice report and congratz again julian

[Ezuri]

Julian (and guys), what's your thought on Dwynen's Elite for Chaos Elves. And maybe a second shaman of the pack to really optimize the life drain effect?
Anyone tested the Dwynen's elite?

p.s. first post, new to forum, not english but lifetime (legacy) elf player :D

[Curby]

Welcome to the forums! I'm far from being an Elves expert, but I don't think Elite has a place. First of all, my sig. I can't think of a card I'd like to remove to fit this in. More specifically though, making vanilla 1/1s isn't that important. I know your plan is to recur it with Symbiote to make an army of tokens, but wouldn't you rather recur Visionary and draw more useful 1/1s and 2/2s along with wincons like GSZ? Also, the primary gameplan of Craterhoof beats doesn't need that many Elves to be lethal anyway.

Similarly, adding a second Shaman increases the virtual copies from 5 to 6, which is a small increase gained at the likely cost of another useful tutor target, which brings us back to my sig. Would you drop Packmaster? Ooze?

[abombdiggity]

I tested a Dwynen's Elite for a while. It's alright, it played like a fifth Elvish Visionary that always whiffed. Sure, there were games that I played it t2 with a heritage druid and it was insane and games where it was able to race young pyromancer with ease, but in the majority of situations an extra vanilla 1/1 that doesn't trigger glimpse isn't going to make a huge impact on the game. As a 1-of, you'd have to tutor for him to find him regularly, but there weren't too many occasions I found myself wanting to GSZ for him over Visionary, a matchup specific two drop like Scavenging Ooze/Teeg, or a Deathrite/Quirion Ranger to take over on a stalled board.

[Ezuri]

Thank you! You are absolutely right: another copy of the shaman isn't going to add much because we can GSZ her.
The Dwynen elite is indeed just a 1/1vanilla addition. Though the T1 druid into T2 dwynen and lots of mana sounds really appealing...
I'm currently not playing the ooze mainboard because of the fact that I don't seem to run into wanting any graveyard hate in my local meta. Besides we already have 4 DrS.
Really doubting about this last flex slot (I now just added another druid or quirion ranger). Thinking about just going with ooze or playing a 1-off knight of the reliquary or titania.

[Animal]

I remember that in my earlier sb guides I usually left in NO most of the times. After a couple of years of playing the deck I changed my mind on this in a lot of matchups. When I still played NO, I used to side them out vs any kind of Delver, Miracles, Sneak Show (depending on how good/bad my sb was), even 2-3 vs Shardless BUG and all vs Infect. In the end I used to side them out in almost 80% of matches I faced so I was happy to drop them. Still, I'm not 100% comfortable to head into a GP without them as they will probably give you at least some free wins vs inexperienced players or bad decks.

On another note, i finally finished my Bazaar of Moxen Annecy report: It's got a lot of content, pictures as well as several feature match and deck tech videos! Have fun! :-)

Check it out on my website: Bazaar of Moxen Annecy with Elves - by Julian Knab (http://itsjulian.com/?p=2211)
Thanks for the tips and tournament report. I am actually thinking of going with 2 Natural Orders in main (and 0 in side) for Prague GP so that I get some extra slots for utility creatures in mainboard, like Gaddock Teeg and Scavenging Ooze. I also noted you dropped Teeg from your list, is there a reason for it? In theory it should give us edge over Miracles and Storm.

We used Wednesday to playtest (and drink beer) with our friends and in addition to Miracles, I noticed burn is also quite troublesome matchup. This is because they bolt our Deathrite Shaman asap, and their clock is very fast. I noticed there are hardly any sideboard cards against it (Cabal Therapy is the only one?), thus how do we normally beat that matchup? Just try to keep a fast turn 3 kill hand and hope to be on play? I noticed there are hardly any creatures in graveyards to eat with DRS/Ooze to gain life even if we would get one active. I am considering swapping Thoughtseizes to Duresses in my sideboard to cover also this matchup.

[dte]

We used Wednesday to playtest (and drink beer) with our friends and in addition to Miracles, I noticed burn is also quite troublesome matchup. This is because they bolt our Deathrite Shaman asap, and their clock is very fast. I noticed there are hardly any sideboard cards against it (Cabal Therapy is the only one?), thus how do we normally beat that matchup? Just try to keep a fast turn 3 kill hand and hope to be on play? I noticed there are hardly any creatures in graveyards to eat with DRS/Ooze to gain life even if we would get one active. I am considering swapping Thoughtseizes to Duresses in my sideboard to cover also this matchup.

Burn is a slightly positive MU. You do not want to board in cabal therapy, but bring in the decay and needle (grim). If you play an additional SB sage, bring it in also.
If possible, keep DRS in hand the firsts 2 turns, or play symbiote before him.
Ooze is your best friend here, try to have 2additional mana when you play it and take care of bolts.

[1nsect]

Hi there,

Just a quick question: Julian, will you take Gaddock among your prefered fellows again after the 2 ANT decks in the last BoM's top 8 (and having lost in a feature match against it)?

Are you still quiet confident about the too low representation of ANT and other storm.deck in the meta, or you wanna take it back at your side? Do the Eldrazis finally not completely annihiled the Storm presence?

I really like your new Legacy Mediocre League concept!

Cheers

[benjiman13]

I have a lot of trouble with flying creature especially in multiple (games with lot of delver, sometimes D&T with serra avenger, now also stormchaser mage...). Sometimes I just cannot race them and I want to find a way to deal with that. Anyone have observed the same kind of issue?

I want to give a shot to Silklash Spider, at least to try if it can do something.

[Nargoron]

I have a lot of trouble with flying creature especially in multiple (games with lot of delver, sometimes D&T with serra avenger, now also stormchaser mage...). Sometimes I just cannot race them and I want to find a way to deal with that. Anyone have observed the same kind of issue?

I want to give a shot to Silklash Spider, at least to try if it can do something.

naah, thats is for 5 mana .. just play rather ruric
or if you want to stop flying creature there are options more suitable for elves like:
Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen
Ezuri´s Archers

[Zombie]

I have a lot of trouble with flying creature especially in multiple (games with lot of delver, sometimes D&T with serra avenger, now also stormchaser mage...). Sometimes I just cannot race them and I want to find a way to deal with that. Anyone have observed the same kind of issue?

I want to give a shot to Silklash Spider, at least to try if it can do something.

Julian's running Jitte maindeck and that sounds like a very reasonable solution. Monogreen, plays to the deck's midrange gameplan, solves thorny things like Delver, Avenger, Mom, Crusader and is a noncreature threat vs. decks like Miracles.

[Nargoron]

Julian's running Jitte maindeck and that sounds like a very reasonable solution. Monogreen, plays to the deck's midrange gameplan, solves thorny things like Delver, Avenger, Mom, Crusader and is a noncreature threat vs. decks like Miracles.

yea , jitte is useful, no doupt..
but you cant fetch it via zenith :/

[Julian23]

...and if you don't put it into your deck, you can't even draw it!

[Shagstaman]

I have a lot of trouble with flying creature especially in multiple (games with lot of delver, sometimes D&T with serra avenger, now also stormchaser mage...). Sometimes I just cannot race them and I want to find a way to deal with that. Anyone have observed the same kind of issue?

I want to give a shot to Silklash Spider, at least to try if it can do something.

If you're only playing 2-3 decay, that could be part of the problem... turns out that card kills all these. ;)

[benjiman13]

If you're only playing 2-3 decay, that could be part of the problem... turns out that card kills all these. ;)

Playing 3 Decay... but that's true that I always want a decay which never come...
Before, I already tried Meekstone, sometimes it's good but too easy to disrupt.
The Jitte main is a very good idea, I will try it on the next tournament. Regarding Ruric, I never played it and I wasn't remembering the Reach capacity which can be nice.

The big issue for me is the lack of removal when a Izzet staticaster hit the battlefield, or Spirit of the labyrinth, Containment priest, Ethersworn canonist (White is a B****)

[Julian23]

Had a pretty sick match vs Brett Jayne's Sneak Show in Week#1 of the Legacy Mediocre League yesterday. Commentary by Mike "Overvoltage" Danielson and Caleb Durward.

Check it out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x59mSoPG9S4

[Nargoron]

Had a pretty sick match vs Brett Jayne's Sneak Show in Week#1 of the Legacy Mediocre League yesterday. Commentary by Mike "Overvoltage" Danielson and Caleb Durward.

Check it out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x59mSoPG9S4
Nice extraction work! i rly enjoyed this games :)
Unfortunatly g3 pyroclasm was decimating.. :/ yep its tough MU

[Diogo37]

Hey guys
i was thinking if anyone have testing Meren in Caos Elves, sounds sweet in grinding matchs.
I will test this month IRL , because I dont have in MOL.

[dwarshaw]

I played against Andrea Mengucci a couple weeks ago on MTGO and just realized that he posted the video on CFB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL04lbfeNAaS_owl9fBXbuGTI8vh5d1Qxo&v=fASg78LMM80

I was playing chaos elves so it is interesting to hear what was happening on the other side of the table. It was pretty telling that he kept assuming I had natural order in my deck, so if chaos elves ever becomes the default version it will probably lose some of its value.

[Nargoron]

Hey guys
i was thinking if anyone have testing Meren in Caos Elves, sounds sweet in grinding matchs.
I will test this month IRL , because I dont have in MOL.

I dont think that Meren is good enough and have enough synergy with other cards...
At first, you dont have cards with ,,enter the game" ability -> only elvish visionary but i rather keep drawing via symbiote (1cmc) then meren (4cmc)...
Next, you dont have some sacrifice mechanism like phyrexial tower

[Diogo37]

I dont think that Meren is good enough and have enough synergy with other cards...
At first, you dont have cards with ,,enter the game" ability -> only elvish visionary but i rather keep drawing via symbiote (1cmc) then meren (4cmc)...
Next, you dont have some sacrifice mechanism like phyrexial tower

I dont think EtB cards and Tower is so important in our gameplan here
I see her against decks with deluge, decay and others removals we zenith her and starting a board presence
As I had said i'll try and comeback with feedback
sorry for the english

[parsimonious]

How are you all sideboarding versus Eldrazi nowadays? I've been doing:
-2 Glimpse
-1 Nettle
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 birchlore

+4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Wren's run Packmaster

Here's my list, for reference:

8 Green fetch
2 forest
2 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
1 dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven
4 Gaea's cradle

4 deathrite
4 quirion Ranger
4 wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Craterhoof
1 Birchlore
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Glimpse
3 Natural Order

sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabak Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Sylvan Library


Right now I'm just going slightly down on Glimpse + associated elves for Decay + wren's run. I am nearly certain this isn't optimal though. I am inbetween grinding them out and focusing on the combo, not sure where I want to be. Anyone have any boarding strategies they feel are particularly suave at the moment?

[Julian23]

I feel that if you are running NO these days, I would totally go with 4 and a Progenitus in the sideboard. Specifically for the Eldrazi matchup. If I was to run Natural Order, I would play the 61 card with a Reclamation Sage as 61st card. Funny enough, I open SCG to see the results and it's the exact 61 cards James Hess ran at the last SCG Classic (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=103787).

[Shagstaman]

I feel that if you are running NO these days, I would totally go with 4 and a Progenitus in the sideboard. Specifically for the Eldrazi matchup. If I was to run Natural Order, I would play the 61 card with a Reclamation Sage as 61st card. Funny enough, I open SCG to see the results and it's the exact 61 cards James Hess ran at the last SCG Classic (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=103787).

;)
that was a last minute decision to go from 3-4 NO, but it was definitely correct. Up until about 5 minutes before the event began I was running Niklas Holtmann's main deck from MKM Frankfurt (which was very good as well). I had many games where order was the only card I wanted to draw...and I did!

[parsimonious]

Interesting perspective on the 4 Natural Orders. I have been fairly happy with 3 as of late, mainly in an effort to minimize 'do-nothing' hands. This is also why I only have 1 dryad arbor at the moment, I hate drawing it as I don't count it as a land. I'll give 4 NO a shot tonight, see if it feels notably more powerful than 3. Putting Sylvan Library main is also something to consider, as I think it helps minimize 'do-nothing' hands, as sylvan + 2 mana is a gameplan on its own.

In terms of the original question though, how would you board versus our colorless friends in each build? Progenitus makes sense as a board-in for the NO versions, but I am far more concerned with what we are taking out. Mana dorks? Engine pieces?

[Zombie]

Interesting perspective on the 4 Natural Orders. I have been fairly happy with 3 as of late, mainly in an effort to minimize 'do-nothing' hands. This is also why I only have 1 dryad arbor at the moment, I hate drawing it as I don't count it as a land. I'll give 4 NO a shot tonight, see if it feels notably more powerful than 3. Putting Sylvan Library main is also something to consider, as I think it helps minimize 'do-nothing' hands, as sylvan + 2 mana is a gameplan on its own.

In terms of the original question though, how would you board versus our colorless friends in each build? Progenitus makes sense as a board-in for the NO versions, but I am far more concerned with what we are taking out. Mana dorks? Engine pieces?

Eldrazi apparently has trouble vs. Shardless, so I'd probably prioritize the grindy elements like block-bounce teams, Packmaster and Ooze. Shaving on stuff like Heritage Druid feels like a reasonable course of action. Basically, play Shardless or play Tinker.dec. They don't do well when their creatures aren't Abysses.

[Shagstaman]

I tend to shave 1-drops because chalice.

WRP is a nightmare for them, but not the end-all...thanks to dismember. But yea if he lives to make a few wolves, you're in great shape.

Reality smasher specifically is a problem tho, since block/bounce isn't viable vs him and he doesn't die to decay. I tested maelstrom pulse but it was clunky and can be countered by warping wail--so it's not the best, but an option worth looking at.

[abombdiggity]

How are you all sideboarding versus Eldrazi nowadays? I've been doing:
-2 Glimpse
-1 Nettle
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 birchlore

+4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Wren's run Packmaster

Here's my list, for reference:


sideboard:
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabak Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Sylvan Library



My list is slightly different (4 NO, 2 Arbor, no MD scooze). I like Scavenging Ooze in the matchup, I sideboard it in against pretty much every deck with Chalice of the Void simply because it's a two drop that I can natural order into Progenitus with (or in your case, get hoof/wrp). Eldrazi in particular will have some trouble with it if you can get a couple counters on it inthe games that develops slowly. I would side out a heritage druid over Birchlore Rangers, as you're siding into 4 black spells and you can sneak him underneath a chalice on one with his morph.

[TGCRequiem]

Long time listener, first time caller...well sort of. I picked up both NO Elves and the pieces for Chaos Elves online around February and then traded into the deck in paper at GP Detroit in March. I absorbed every bit of content I could on the deck and have played it off and on since then, alternating with Modern. It is definitely the "funnest" deck I've ever played, and I feel like I'm pretty decent with the deck. I am however a little lacking in general Legacy experience and so I was hoping you all might be willing to help fill in my experience gaps.

I mostly play a standard NO Elves build http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/386252#online though I'm going to try the 61 cards w/3 Heritage Druid, a Reclamation Sage and a Sylvan Library tonight. I've also listed my sideboard below for easy reference. I have been playing 1 Cavern of Souls in the Pendelhaven slot as it seems there is not a lot at the top that Pendelhaven is good against right now.

1) Elderscale Wurm. What decks other than Burn is it good against?
2) Burn. How should I be approaching the Burn matchup both from a gameplay and sideboard perspective? I have found Burn to be a troublesome matchup. Lots of burn pointed at my creatures while they get in range with creatures of their own before going for the flurry finish. Burn is also somewhat popular in my local meta. I see lots of Grafdiggers Cage and Pyrokinesis out of the side.
3) Umezawa's Jitte. What decks, other than Elves, is it best against? (I assume it is only worth playing the grindier Chaos Builds)
4) Winter Orb. Which decks are we wanting to use this against? I love this card from Cube...just curious what it's best at hating on.
5) Shaman of the Pack. Just confirming it is not worthwhile in NO Elves? I feel like it would be a great one of to pair with Symbiote and Green Sun's Zenith, but I'm assuming others don't play it for a reason.
6) Pendelhaven. As noted I've replaced my copy in the main with Cavern of Souls. What matchups is it great in that I'm "likely" neglecting?
7) 61st Card. What would the 61st card you would add to your deck (assuming you're not exceeding 4 ofs)? IE What is the best card you are not playing.

I know that's a lot to ask, but I seriously love this deck and I just want to know what I don't know!!! Thanks again for any assistance.

My Sideboard:
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Progenitus

[Shagstaman]

1) Elderscale Wurm. What decks other than Burn is it good against?
- Lands, dredge, UR delver, eldrazi, and mirror match

2) Burn. How should I be approaching the Burn matchup both from a gameplay and sideboard perspective? I have found Burn to be a troublesome matchup. Lots of burn pointed at my creatures while they get in range with creatures of their own before going for the flurry finish. Burn is also somewhat popular in my local meta. I see lots of Grafdiggers Cage and Pyrokinesis out of the side.
- pyrokinesis is annoying, but honestly unless they have 6-8 searing effects, it should be a favorable matchup. Best advice I can offer is that they don't have any real interaction with NO and little with glimpse (unless eidolon on field). Bringing in decays is a wise move, as their hate cards involve pyrostatic pillar, ensnaring bridge, grim lavamancer, and cage EDIT: also, scavenging ooze is a house vs them. they spend resources killing dudes, and you get to turn them into precious life points!

3) Umezawa's Jitte. What decks, other than Elves, is it best against? (I assume it is only worth playing the grindier Chaos Builds)
- delver decks, burn, decks without abrupt decay, and even some builds of miracles (wizards)...oh and kills MOM (so add DnT)

4) Winter Orb. Which decks are we wanting to use this against? I love this card from Cube...just curious what it's best at hating on.
- I've never seen this in elf sb...altho it doesn't seem terrible being as how our one land can be cradle... ;)

5) Shaman of the Pack. Just confirming it is not worthwhile in NO Elves? I feel like it would be a great one of to pair with Symbiote and Green Sun's Zenith, but I'm assuming others don't play it for a reason.
- gets around glacial chasm, moat, peacekeeper, and elderscale wurm(!)...but mostly the first 3. Also insane with cavern! so to answer your question, it can be played in either version of the deck IMO...it does fit better in chaos elves tho.

6) Pendelhaven. As noted I've replaced my copy in the main with Cavern of Souls. What matchups is it great in that I'm "likely" neglecting?
- punishing fire decks, decks with snapcaster, decks with containment priest, decks with forked bolt, can randomly save wirewood from a golgari charm (corner case, but still...makes their play pointless)

7) 61st Card. What would the 61st card you would add to your deck (assuming you're not exceeding 4 ofs)? IE What is the best card you are not playing.
- Nettle sentinel, NO, or q.ranger...assuming they are 3-ofs in your list. These cards should all be 4-ofs if you are running them, IMO. I am running 61, so for me it was the last NO. But if I were going to 62, it'd be WRP!!!

hopefully this helps ;)

[.Ix]

Has anyone tried Duskwatch Recruiter yet? Seems pretty insane for the grindy plan. It's like running both parts of the best friends team in one card, kind of. I don't think I can run it main in my meta, but I feel like testing it in the board.

[Voldimore]

Has anyone tried Duskwatch Recruiter yet? Seems pretty insane for the grindy plan. It's like running both parts of the best friends team in one card, kind of. I don't think I can run it main in my meta, but I feel like testing it in the board.

I wouldn't play it. It's a non-elf with a 3 mana ability which seems a bit much for legacy. Sylvan Library seems the more powerful version of the card since it also gets around Bolts etc

[.Ix]

You realize Symbiote is a non-elf with a 2-mana ability, right? And that's only if Visionary is in play. Without its best friend, it really doesn't do much. WRP has a 3-mana ability that could actually be worse than Duskwatch in many matchups, and most people play it. I've goldfished it a little and it appears to be worth playtesting. I'll try it as the 61st card in a 20 land list.

[Zombie]

You realize Symbiote is a non-elf with a 2-mana ability, right? And that's only if Visionary is in play. Without its best friend, it really doesn't do much. WRP has a 3-mana ability that could actually be worse than Duskwatch in many matchups, and most people play it. I've goldfished it a little and it appears to be worth playtesting. I'll try it as the 61st card in a 20 land list.

Symbiote also contributes a lot of board control, makes SotP a card, breaks Recla Sage and turbocharges DRS into a Burn.dec simulator. With the Nettle-Heritage engine it can also generate a ton of mana. Drawing cards with Visionary is far from the only thing it does.

[.Ix]

Right, but those are far less common and less important than the draw engine thing except in certain matchups. My point was that the things Voldimore mentioned are not relevant reasons to not run a card in Elves.

[Careve]

I don't have much to say about the recruiter and I'd be happy if someone properly test him. However the way you undersold the symbiote is just criminal. Bouncing visionary is just 20% of the goodness it provides.

[.Ix]

Honestly, I havent done anything other than bounce Visionary or bounce other guys to make mana with it in a long time. I've barely played any non-combo matches with Elves since the beginning of the year. I board it out all the time.

[chewemy]

Julian won 2-0 against storm on round 2 with Elves (Natural order)

[TGCRequiem]

Just wanted to say thanks Shagstaman for the response.

1) Elderscale Wurm - Eldrazi has been enough of a push to consider adding the Elderscale Wurm though it's good to know it helps in a close-ish matchup I believe we're favored in against Lands as well.
2) Burn - Against Burn it's good to hear bringing in Abrupt Decay and some of the things I wasn't thinking about. I had been bringing in 2 Decay Scooze and 3 Cabal on the draw, but Cabal doesn't seem great. I also think I need to play the Pithing Needle against Grim Lavamancer.
3) Umezawa's Jitte - Thank you for confirming the matchups it is good against are already matchups we're favored on w/NO Elves.
4) Winter's Orb - I've seen Julian side it in in some of his Twitter screenshots. I had been trying to think about different ways to fight our nemesis decks in Miracles, Storm, Reanimator, Sneak and Show. This one only really seems to help against Miracles though. Was considering if it'd be worth running 4x Lotus Petal and 4x Thorn of Amethyst in the side against those decks to help attack those decks w/T1 Thorns. Not sure if it's viable enough though.
5) Shaman of the Pack - I just feel like I want to try this as a 1 of to get some extra Symbiote action, plus it might speed up some of those Glimpse Chaiin kills.
6) Pendelhaven - Yeah seems the 1 of Cavern is more important right now.
7) 61st Card - Really enjoyed the 61 card build with Rec Sage and Sylvan Library in my last league. Allowed me to add the Elderscale to the sideboard.

[mistercakes]

anyone else notice that the 80 card elf deck won a GP trial (same deck from a few weeks ago)? would love to hear some stories behind this thing.

[Capt4in]

anyone else notice that the 80 card elf deck won a GP trial (same deck from a few weeks ago)? would love to hear some stories behind this thing.

This guy is a madman. I'd love to see his thoughts on the deck.

[abombdiggity]

11-4 at GP Columbus.
Two Byes
R3- D&T, Win
R4- Miracles, Loss
R5- Dredge, Loss
R6- BG Turbo Depths, Loss
R7- Enchantress, Win
R8- D&T, Win
R9- D&T, Win
Snuck into day 2, got lucky and got to play Death and Taxes a few times.
R10- Infect, Win
R11- Grixis Delver, Win
R12- ANT, Win
R13- Grixis Delver, Loss
R14- D&T, Win
R15- Sneak and Show, Win

[benjiman13]

11-4 at GP Columbus.
Two Byes
R3- D&T, Win
R4- Miracles, Loss
R5- Dredge, Loss
R6- BG Turbo Depths, Loss
R7- Enchantress, Win
R8- D&T, Win
R9- D&T, Win
Snuck into day 2, got lucky and got to play Death and Taxes a few times.
R10- Infect, Win
R11- Grixis Delver, Win
R12- ANT, Win
R13- Grixis Delver, Loss
R14- D&T, Win
R15- Sneak and Show, Win

Nice job! You were with the NO version? Classical list or some exotic stuff?

[abombdiggity]

Nice job! You were with the NO version? Classical list or some exotic stuff?

I posted back on page 306 and didn't make any changes other than a fetch for the second Cavern since then, it's fairly stock. 4 Natural Order, Reclamation Sage as the only non combo piece in the maindeck. 2 Cavern of Souls, 2 Arbor, 0 Pendelhaven. Packmaster out of the SB was phenomenal- would love to make room for it in the maindeck, but mana-wise I think the only real cut is NO and I really, really liked having all four this weekend.

[Ezuri]

Hello Guys,

I did a local legacy tournament today with the chaos elves build. (please keep in mind I hadn't played MTG in 3 or 4 months, did not test the deck and it was my first time playing chaos elves).
Won my first game against Eldrazi 2-0
Lost my second game against Delver and over 14 counter spells on his side 0-2
Lost my second game against Jund 1-2 (Very close, lost on one life)
Won my last game against Delver 2-0

I played 21 lands today and had a lot of games where I found myself with 3 land cards in my hand and drawing a land when I needed anything but mana.
So having my doubts about the manabase.

Shaman of the Pack and Wren's Run Packmaster were AMAZING! Bouncing shaman combined with deathrite shaman's ability or attacking every turn for 3 or 4 really stacks up. I ran two SotP today in case one got countered (seriously doubted switching it for elderscale wurm though).
I did miss the natural orders sometimes. Though there was a lot of counter magic going around, so I doubt it would've come through.
Anybody yet tested playing 3 NO and a crater hoof AND the SotP? Maybe sideboarding the NO out after game/win 1?

Just having my doubts about my flex slot -> SotP or scavenging ooze or titania or jitte or elderscale wurm.

2#Dryad Arbor
4#Gaea’s Cradle
1#Pendelhaven
2#Forest
2#Cavern of Souls
3#Windswept Heath
3#Wooded Foothills
1#Misty Rainforest
1#Verdant Catacombs
2#Bayou
3#Heritage Druid
4#Wirewood Symbiote
4#Quirion Ranger
4#Nettle Sentinel
1#Birchlore Rangers
1#Craterhoof Behemoth
4#Elvish Visionary
4#Deathrite Shaman
1#Llanowar Elves
1#Reclamation Sage
4#Green Sun’s Zenith
4#Glimpse of Nature
1#Sylvan Library
1#Wren’s Run Packmaster
2#Shaman of the Pack
// sideboard
1#Reclamation Sage
3#Abrupt Decay
1#Elvish Champion
2#Cabal Therapy
2#Thoughtseize
2#Pithing Needle
2#Choke
1#Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1#Krosan Grip

Side boarding abrupt decays in was really helpful. Might consider going to 4. Thoughtseize and cabal were good aswel.

All tips or suggestions are welcome!
Keep in mind: this was my first time ever playing the list. I always played NO Elves! (and I only play magic from time to time for fun).

[chewemy]

The 1st elves player is 35th (NO list) and 40th (the choas list) for GP prague

Deck Maco Monno :


Spells
Lands
Sideboard


2 Dryad Arbor
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Regal Force
1 Shaman of the Pack

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

2 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
1 T aiga


3 Abrupt Decay
1 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
1 Progénitus
1 Worldspine Wurm



Deck Elias Klocker


Spells
Lands
Sideboard


1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Heritage Druid
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Quirion Ranger
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Crop Rotation

4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Pendelhaven
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Verdant Catacombs


3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Armageddon
1 Karakas

[dte]

anyone else notice that the 80 card elf deck won a GP trial (same deck from a few weeks ago)? would love to hear some stories behind this thing.

not at all the same deck: I remove most of the land package, keeping only 1 wasteland as an unusual target MD (still pendle, fetchs, dryad, CoS and mainly Cradle there anyway) and 1 crop MD, and shaved off NO and NO targets (removed Ruric, Regal and Elderscale) but added 4 Fauna and a Fauna package :)


This guy is a madman. I'd love to see his thoughts on the deck.

Thanks :)

So first, the "big" version is slower and overall a bit less good than the classical or the chaos one.
Otherwise we are favored against anything which is not combo, and do not have any shot at winning any combo MUs.

There is two things that can drives you to play the deck: the first one is that any single game is really unique, while before I felt like every game was a bit similar to some of the ones I've already experienced. The second one is to have opponents which are smiling and most of them, even if they lose, are happy to have played against something that surprised them.

No competitive reasons thought should push you to run more than 60/61 cards MD. But it is a lot of fun.
And you can still win a lot of games, this WE I won enough points to go back with a tropical island, a bunch of boosters and singles that I wanted.
And I had much more fun than I ever had playing regular elves :)

Otherwise congrats abombdiggity, nice performance!

[Shagstaman]

11-4 at GP Columbus.
Two Byes
R3- D&T, Win
R4- Miracles, Loss
R5- Dredge, Loss
R6- BG Turbo Depths, Loss
R7- Enchantress, Win
R8- D&T, Win
R9- D&T, Win
Snuck into day 2, got lucky and got to play Death and Taxes a few times.
R10- Infect, Win
R11- Grixis Delver, Win
R12- ANT, Win
R13- Grixis Delver, Loss
R14- D&T, Win
R15- Sneak and Show, Win


So there was another elves! My friends told me I was the only elves player to day 2...
You stole all my good matchups tho, ;(...instead I got miracles x2, reanimator, and esper stoneblade. I went x-5 in rd 14 and dropped to get a head start back home.

Was your finish good for $250??

[parsimonious]

So there was another elves! My friends told me I was the only elves player to day 2...
You stole all my good matchups tho, ;(...instead I got miracles x2, reanimator, and esper stoneblade. I went x-5 in rd 14 and dropped to get a head start back home.

Was your finish good for $250??

I believe there were quite a few of us. I day 2'd with NO, but ended up x-5 after round 15. I know Reid Duke also won out on day 2 with Elves. Two of my opponents had also played elves pilots on day 2. My losses ended up being 2x Storm, 1x Omni Sneak, 1x aggro loam, and 1x sneak attack. I might post a report later.

[abombdiggity]

So there was another elves! My friends told me I was the only elves player to day 2...
You stole all my good matchups tho, ;(...instead I got miracles x2, reanimator, and esper stoneblade. I went x-5 in rd 14 and dropped to get a head start back home.

Was your finish good for $250??

I think the report they posted was the top 100 decks from day 1, which I believe was x-2 and up or very close. I ended at 100th place exactly. My losses were very early and only one, the turbo depths player, ended up making day two so my tiebreakers were shit.

How many NO were you on? I do think the meta was good for the full 4. Other than miracles and sometimes Grixis Delver I don't want four, but it was so good for my specific matchups (I keep all 4 in against Storm because I wanted to lower the threat density while still comboing quickly). Definitely got my share of decent matchups, although beating storm and Infect on the draw I was very happy with.

[Krasman]

So there was another elves! My friends told me I was the only elves player to day 2...
You stole all my good matchups tho, ;(...instead I got miracles x2, reanimator, and esper stoneblade. I went x-5 in rd 14 and dropped to get a head start back home.

Was your finish good for $250??

I also made day 2 with elves; the misconception is that wizard's site just posted the top 100 decks for day 2 where only 1 elves was in it.

My matches were as follows:
Rnd 1 & Rnd 2 - Byes
Rnd 3 - Win - 2-1 Miracles (against my friend that I travelled with, he also had two byes...)
Rnd 4 - Loss - 0-2 Storm
Rnd 5 - Loss - 0-2 UR Delver
Rnd 6 - Win - 2-1 Sneak & Show
Rnd 7 - Win - 2-1 4C Stoneblade
Rnd 8 - Loss - 0-2 4C Aggro Loam
Rnd 9 - Win - 2-0 Dark Maverick

Rnd 10 - Loss - 1-2 Infect
Rnd 11 - Loss - 1-2 Dredge

Then I dropped to play vintage 12PM event.

[jattra]

not at all the same deck: I remove most of the land package, keeping only 1 wasteland as an unusual target MD (still pendle, fetchs, dryad, CoS and mainly Cradle there anyway) and 1 crop MD, and shaved off NO and NO targets (removed Ruric, Regal and Elderscale) but added 4 Fauna and a Fauna package :)



Can you please give us a link to your decklist?
Is Fauna package Fauna Shaman and Vengevine?
I am also trying to build some fun elf deck and also playing Fauna Shamans.
Thanks.

[MD.Ghost]

I got destroyed with Eldrazi at GP Prague (5:4), but gained some revenge with NO Elves at the Sideevent (cashed for 1,5 Display Boxes and 2nd Stoneforge Promo etc.).

Best story vs Miracle:

My opponent had 2x Top and a couple of lands. I starting a Glimpse after the first terminus. I decided to hold on with Cradle-Mana, which made it not so easy to gain enough Mana (only 1 Nettle) and i cost me 2 Activations from our little Insect Friend to keep it rolling. Since Glimpse attempt worked, i reached the Point of "Combo it out and win the game or lose to Terminus". Now my plan was, get enough Mana (without Cradle) for Zenith-Rec Sage (kill Top 1), get a free Symbiote (the 3rd), bounce Sage, play Sage (kill Top 2), my opponent responded with "tap/draw/Terminus" (as expected!). In Response i activate Cradle (for 14 Mana). My field was clear now. My hand had a couple of lands and 1 Hoof, 1 NO and 1 Zenith. I play Zenith for Arbor, cast Hoof, NO-Arbor for 2nd Hoof and attacked for the win. Man that was a great feeling to crush Miracle this way.

[Nargoron]

I got destroyed with Eldrazi at GP Prague (5:4), but gained some revenge with NO Elves at the Sideevent (cashed for 1,5 Display Boxes and 2nd Stoneforge Promo etc.).

Best story vs Miracle:

My opponent had 2x Top and a couple of lands. I starting a Glimpse after the first terminus. I decided to hold on with Cradle-Mana, which made it not so easy to gain enough Mana (only 1 Nettle) and i cost me 2 Activations from our little Insect Friend to keep it rolling. Since Glimpse attempt worked, i reached the Point of "Combo it out and win the game or lose to Terminus". Now my plan was, get enough Mana (without Cradle) for Zenith-Rec Sage (kill Top 1), get a free Symbiote (the 3rd), bounce Sage, play Sage (kill Top 2), my opponent responded with "tap/draw/Terminus" (as expected!). In Response i activate Cradle (for 14 Mana). My field was clear now. My hand had a couple of lands and 1 Hoof, 1 NO and 1 Zenith. I play Zenith for Arbor, cast Hoof, NO-Arbor for 2nd Hoof and attacked for the win. Man that was a great feeling to crush Miracle this way.
looool :D crazy story :)

[dte]

Can you please give us a link to your decklist?
Is Fauna package Fauna Shaman and Vengevine?
I am also trying to build some fun elf deck and also playing Fauna Shamans.
Thanks.

Here you are: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12670&d=273386&f=LE
But add at least the 4th Fauna, it's that good.

I didn't try vengevine because they seem to be slow as hell and that there is almost always better things to do.
But maybe they are good, I wouldn't know :)

[Julian23]

Back from GP Prague and working on a longer report. Here'sn the tl;dr: switched to NO after encoutnering way too many Eldrazi decks in Prague on Thursday and Friday. Friend of mine still stuck to Chaos Elves and went 11-3-1 with it.

Here's my matches:

Round 1 — *BYE*
Round 2 — ANT — 2:0 WIN (Feature Match)
Round 3 — Miracles — 2:0 WIN
Round 4 — Imperial Painter — 2:0 WIN
Round 5 — Eldrazi — 2:1 WIN
Round 6 — Miracles — 0:2 LOSS (Tomáš Vlček)
Round 7 — 4c Delver — 2:1 WIN
Round 8 — Omni Sneak Show — 1:2 LOSS (Jonathan Anghelescu)
Round 9 — BUG Delver — 2:0 WIN

7-2 after Day1 in ~92nd place.

Round 10 — Eldrazi — 0:2 LOSS
Round 11 — Eldrazi — 1:2 LOSS
Round 12 — TES — 1:2 LOSS
Round 13 — Miracles — 2:0 WIN
Round 14 — RG Lands — 1:2 LOSS
Round 15 — BUG Delver — 2:0 WIN

Day2 was quite disappointing as I didn't really get to play Magic on 4 out of 6 rounds. Longer report later this week. This is the list I played:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Reclamation Sage

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Pendelhaven
2 Dryad Arbor
61 cards

SB:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless'

Put in Jitte as the sudo 4th Natural Order. This is now something like the 4th tournament in a row where that card has *far and away* been the best card in the entire deck for me. Seriously considering adding a 2nd copy to the board; since I always cut all Natural Orders against Delver decks, it's nice to have other high-impact cards that are much easier to resolve.

[jattra]

Here you are: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12670&d=273386&f=LE
But add at least the 4th Fauna, it's that good.

I didn't try vengevine because they seem to be slow as hell and that there is almost always better things to do.
But maybe they are good, I wouldn't know :)
Thanks for the list!

Actually, I never had any success with Vengevines even though I wish it would work :)

How are you chaining mana with only a single Nettle Sentinel?

[Echelon]

Birchlore + a lot of 1-drops..?

[dte]

Thanks for the list!

Actually, I never had any success with Vengevines even though I wish it would work :)

How are you chaining mana with only a single Nettle Sentinel?

Untapping KotR into cradleS?

The trick is to play fewer 1 drop (I didn't lose a match from CotV or CB since quite some time) to play more impactful cards. Then you do not need to chain mana like crazy.

The drawback is to be as slow as an arthritic slug and lose to combo MUs.
The single Nettle is more here for the infinite mana/creatures/draws combo, I cannot remove it because of that. otherwise far from being as good as in normal elves.

[Animal]

GP Prague: 3-4-1 drop.

Decklist:

Creature (29)
1x Birchlore Rangers
2x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Elvish Visionary
3x Heritage Druid
1x Llanowar Elves
4x Nettle Sentinel
3x Quirion Ranger
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Shaman of the Pack
4x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Wren's Run Packmaster

Land (20)
2x Bayou
1x Cavern of Souls
2x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
4x Gaea's Cradle
1x Pendelhaven
1x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills

Sorcery (11)
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Natural Order

Sideboard (15)
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
2x Thoughtseize

I arrived at the hotel on friday around 21:00, but my friend arrived at 1:30 AM. So we drank couple beers and went to bed around 3:00 AM. That means before this tournament we had 4 hours of sleep. And thus the result was like this.

Round 1: 2-1 vs Punishing Jund.
Best play error from me: top deck and play Wren's Run Packmaster to an empty board. I haven't played WRP before and thus made that stupid error when my brain shut down for one minute. Other than that, I was able to win, even game 3 when he had -1/-1 to all elves on board (Engineered Plague) with just playing non-elf creatures, nettle sentinel and then go for NO into behemoth.

Round 2: 2-1 vs ANT
Cant remember anything about this game except that my opponent was from Denmark and he was in a hangover.

Round 3: 0-2 vs ANT or TES
First game I mulled to four, he put 10 goblin tokens to board on turn 1. Second game he just went off 1 turn before me.

Round 4: 2-1 vs Infect
We both did what we do best, but I was faster two times.

Round 5: 0-2 vs UR delver
I felt like playing against better version of burn. He had insane starts and I could do nothing against that.

Round 6: 1-2 (1-1-1) vs Lands
Played against a fellow Finn. We both were 3-2 and were going to have a tie. In 5th extra turn we halted the game for a second to discuss things and decided that either of us should scoop so that the other one has easier try to get to day 2, since you needed 6-3-0 or better for day two. In the end, I decided to scoop to him, because he wasnt so tired as I was and he had better deck for current meta.

Round 7: 1-1-1 vs Miracles
Tie on 5th extra turn because he tapped the wrong mana for brainstorm and I was able to jump block a tie. I hate the deck so much so I decided to take him "with me" by getting a tie instead of scooping. At this point I was 3-3-1 so no day 2 for me. Decided to stay for one more round for fun.

Round 8: 0-2 vs Food Chain
I have never played against this deck or even seen it being played before. No answers against his turn 3 combo.

Lessons learned:
* Don't play WRP to empty board. Though the card itself is great. It got me so many wins just because WRP + Cradle is so much value.
* Shaman of the Pack is pretty okay in main, I like it better than Scavenging Ooze, since it deals damage through trigger and can win games where I cannot attack.
* I think 3x NO is enough. I felt like I had one when I needed one but never had two in my hand.
* 1-of Cavern of Souls is not enough if deck runs Caverns. You never get it in the game you need it. Might as well play a Forest in that slot so that you have easier time against Wastelands.
* Always fetch Forest first. ALWAYS. Even if you open with Deathrite Shaman.
* Gaddock Teeg is a good sideboard card.
* Get more sleep before a tournament of that caliper.

On sunday I saw dte playing such a weird version of elves, with like 78 cards or something. Whaaaat! Please post your decklist, it looked so much fun! Synergy with Titania, Protector of Argoth + fetchlands + jump-blocking Dryad Arbors seemed so much value.

NINJA-EDIT: ah dte already posted David Teze's 82 elves list. Gotta check that out.

[goggs]

SB:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Elderscale Wurm
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless[/CARDS]'


Couple questions/comments about the sideboard. Elderscale Wurm seems very good against the decks attacking the life total - burn, eldrazi, etc. I don't believe eldrazi has any way to deal with it - seems good. Would you also bring it in against a deck like lands where I don't believe they have a way to deal with it? How about against delver strategies? Could you comment on the thoughtseize/therapy split? Normally we see more therapies compared to thoughtseize. Is the lack of therapy because of an uptick in plays like turn 1 chalice, where missing with a therapy is very bad against say turn 2 thought-knot seer? I know in the past there have been krosan grips in the board for miracles and perhaps other random targets- is there an uptick in 3 drops in miracles? I imagine needles, choke, and garruk do good work, just curious if you haven't liked k grip.

Cheers!

[Zombie]

Couple questions/comments about the sideboard. Elderscale Wurm seems very good against the decks attacking the life total - burn, eldrazi, etc. I don't believe eldrazi has any way to deal with it - seems good.

Eldrazi do have All Is Dust, but usually it's a 2 of or so.

[Ezuri]

Julian, see you went back to playing Natural order? How's that?

I was about to suggest playing a combination of both NO Elves! and Chaos elves when Animal's list popped up.
I was thinking about playing exactly a list like that. Maybe with 2 cavern of souls though (and minus 1 fetch or dryad arbor).

Playing 3 natural orders and 2 crater hoofs
But ALSO playing the WrP and the shaman of the pack MB.
This way we can combo with hoof but still have a backup plan in case of counter on NO or a glacial chasm etc.
What are your opinions?

[Animal]

For 2 Cavern of Souls I would cut Savannah (and Teeg from the side) and one Forest. You can play the deck with one Forest and because you are playing NO, you definitely want 2x Dryad Arbor. Also playing Deathrite Shaman means you want at least 8x fetches. I noticed that I cannot count my opponent to be always fetching on turn one or two.

[dte]

I don't believe eldrazi has any way to deal with it - seems good. Would you also bring it in against a deck like lands where I don't believe they have a way to deal with it?

Beside All is dust, the more common answer for Eldrazi is Jitte, which is at least a 2-off MD.
Endbringer taking care of your board + jitte and Elderscale won't help. Endbringer + cotv and they can wait for jitte.

If you ever need to attack with the Elderscale, dismember + block by mimic/Revoker/Mishra is also a thing.

However, Elderscale out is really amazing against Eldrazi. It just isn't completely game over for them, just like Ruric is not for ANT (but close enough for us).

The good cards vs eldrazi are WRP, jitte, NO, GSZ, Rec, CoS. Yes, Eldrazis are big, but jitte is still completely insane against them, allowing your creatures to be bigger than theirs.

[MD.Ghost]

The good cards vs eldrazi are WRP, jitte, NO, GSZ, Rec, CoS. Yes, Eldrazis are big, but jitte is still completely insane against them, allowing your creatures to be bigger than theirs.

Yes! I play both decks and Jitte is not bad vs Eldrazi, especially with a swarm deck and a lot of cheap dudes.

Still unsure if it is good to play Jitte over Library main. Both cards are random 1offs (except if you want more copies at Side) that can win games. Jitte can be online the turn you play it, while Library will not anything until your next turn. There are pros and cons either way.

My current ideas vs Eldrazi are: Natural Order is a good card, i also want WRP at my 75 cards (card is also great vs Miracles, BGx etc.) and i also added a 2nd Rec. Sage at Side (Counterbalance/Chalice) over a 4th Decay because i liked that Sage is tuturable, reusable and afterall a 2/1 Beater (which is both better vs Miracle and Eldrazi compared to "fire-and-forget" Decay). But maybe this muchup needs more adjustments (2x Jitte and/or Glissa, the Traitor since First Strike+Deathtouch means: wreak havoc with Eldrazi)

[Shagstaman]

my post and questions associated w/it got buried...posting from work, so my apologies if I don't directly reply BUT:

yea, I think my friends were just looking @top 100 decks..

and my list was the same as the SCG Atlanta classic except I switched out Ruric for +1 thoughtseize in sb. I feel like my list was close to perfect for the event and my losses were only to bad matchups (2 miracles, 1 reanimator, 1 eldrazi) and 5th loss was due to running real bad vs esper stoneblade (drew about 5 fetches and 2 cradles after already having all fetchable lands and a cradle in play).

I'd highly advocate my list for the next couple months at least...the only hole is Miracles, but I honestly feel like that we'd have to fundamentally change the deck (like Julian has done) to make it even a 50/50 matchup. My list beats up on fair blue decks pretty hard, with the only exception being miracles...and even that is winnable with tight/creative play. Non-blue fair decks are even easier...

the next step may honestly be trying a couple decays main.. seriously. I side 3-4 copies in roughly 75-80% of my matches..

[Zombie]

my post and questions associated w/it got buried...posting from work, so my apologies if I don't directly reply BUT:

yea, I think my friends were just looking @top 100 decks..

and my list was the same as the SCG Atlanta classic except I switched out Ruric for +1 thoughtseize in sb. I feel like my list was close to perfect for the event and my losses were only to bad matchups (2 miracles, 1 reanimator, 1 eldrazi) and 5th loss was due to running real bad vs esper stoneblade (drew about 5 fetches and 2 cradles after already having all fetchable lands and a cradle in play).

I'd highly advocate my list for the next couple months at least...the only hole is Miracles, but I honestly feel like that we'd have to fundamentally change the deck (like Julian has done) to make it even a 50/50 matchup. My list beats up on fair blue decks pretty hard, with the only exception being miracles...and even that is winnable with tight/creative play. Non-blue fair decks are even easier...

the next step may honestly be trying a couple decays main.. seriously. I side 3-4 copies in roughly 75-80% of my matches..

1 Cavern main in a meta this infested with Miracles and Eldrazi seems irresponsible.

[Julian23]

One of the last lists I tested right before the GP actually had 2-3 Decays in the maindeck. I don't think it's an unreasonable call considering that the card is totally maindeckable in the first place AND frees up sideboard slots for high-impact cards. You know how much I love promoting 5/7 cards to the maindeck.

[blind]

I play 1 Decay MD since 2 months, it's absolutely good yeah. 2-3 if you play 4 Glimpse, not totally sure.

[Shagstaman]

1 Cavern main in a meta this infested with Miracles and Eldrazi seems irresponsible.

I agree, and want to further hybridize my deck by going with 2 cavern...but man cuts are hard to make these days. I can fully justify every card slot as it sits.. :( desperate times tho..

[Zombie]

I agree, and want to further hybridize my deck by going with 2 cavern...but man cuts are hard to make these days. I can fully justify every card slot as it sits.. :( desperate times tho..

What I'll be trying for a while:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Quirion Ranger

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers

2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Forest
2 Bayou

4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Pendelhaven

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs

Board:
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Elderscale Wurm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless

[Nargoron]

What I'll be trying for a while:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Quirion Ranger

4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers

2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Forest
2 Bayou

4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Pendelhaven

3 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs

Board:
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Elderscale Wurm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless

Isn't glimpse weak after this changes? You are running low of elves... and dudes in general

[Zombie]

Isn't glimpse weak after this changes? You are running low of elves... and dudes in general

In the NO builds Glimpse is there as a draw spell and cheap Hymn, not as a kill condition primarily. It plays the part of Ancestral Recall just fine IME.

[Jayaballard182]

Here is my german report of GP Prague. Sorry it's not english.
Tell me what you think.

http://janohneeis.wix.com/elves


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[benjiman13]

Here is my german report of GP Prague. Sorry it's not english.
Tell me what you think.

http://janohneeis.wix.com/elves

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Any chance to make an english version ?

[Jayaballard182]

Any chance to make an english version ?

Hey Benjiman13,
it could take me too much time now. But I already decided to write the next report in english for sure! If you have concrete questions or improvements -> give me a text I am open for discussions!

Jan Lenger

[benjiman13]

Hey Benjiman13,
it could take me too much time now. But I already decided to write the next report in english for sure! If you have concrete questions or improvements -> give me a text I am open for discussions!

Jan Lenger

How do you feel about the NO build? Did you play miracle? Shardless? Eldrazi?
The hate against combo was good? (Ruric and Gaddock)

[Jayaballard182]

I THINK it's the stronger build with (3) NO. Of course it depends on the meta and some awesome players are really successful without. My choice is 3. The 4th slot is used for sylvan library so far but i will try the jitte in the next month. I also tried a bloodmoon build which was successful at the Eternal Prague but not at the GP Prague.

I played against Miracles. Maybe you are just interested in the sideboard decision i took.

+3 Aprubt Decay
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Garruk
+1 surgical Extraction
+1 Gaddock Teeg

-3 Gaeas Cradle
-3 Heritage Druid
-1 Glimpse of Nature

Do you board in the Thoughtseize? Would be interesting to know.

The Ruric is very strong any very expensive at the same time. I board him in against storm, omniscience, delver, burn and miracles if i didn't see a single karakas/legend in his first game... and it depends also on your choice to take out NO against delver decks.

Jan Lenger



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[Diogo37]

Hey guys
Thats Im playing for now, I put aside caos elves for now

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/431776#online

I really like win against eldrazi and lands and I board in decay so much and I wanted to take a chance in MD.

Sorry for my english

[Jayaballard182]

Hey guys
Thats Im playing for now, I put aside caos elves for now

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/431776#online

I really like win against eldrazi and lands and I board in decay so much and I wanted to take a chance in MD.

Sorry for my english

I played this list in Prague and tested it alot: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19921&iddeck=151726

BUT there is a problem with the lists. If you board in Blooodmoon and still want to play decays you need a birchlore online or DS or play the Bloodmoon second turn. It happens quiet a lot that one of the factors tip over your plan. So BM is a good card, but there is no synergy with the rest of your deck. If you wanna play decays in your maindeck, remove the bloodmoon and the taiga. I like 2 Caverns ;-) =)

[TGCRequiem]

I THINK it's the stronger build with (3) NO. Of course it depends on the meta and some awesome players are really successful without. My choice is 3. The 4th slot is used for sylvan library so far but i will try the jitte in the next month. I also tried a bloodmoon build which was successful at the Eternal Prague but not at the GP Prague.

I played against Miracles. Maybe you are just interested in the sideboard decision i took.

+3 Aprubt Decay
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Garruk
+1 surgical Extraction
+1 Gaddock Teeg

-3 Gaeas Cradle
-3 Heritage Druid
-1 Glimpse of Nature

Do you board in the Thoughtseize? Would be interesting to know.

The Ruric is very strong any very expensive at the same time. I board him in against storm, omniscience, delver, burn and miracles if i didn't see a single karakas/legend in his first game... and it depends also on your choice to take out NO against delver decks.

Jan Lenger



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-3 Gaea's Cradle

MIND BLOWN. It both makes a ton of sense and is something I would never have considered. I don't personally think I'd want to take out more than 2 in the hopes of getting a very explosive start out of it but still.

Also, the Garruk...is this over Wren's Run Packmaster specifically due to the fact it cannot be Terminus'd while still being grindy as heck?

[Julian23]

Had a pretty tight match vs Caleb's Tin Fins in the Legacy Mediocre League tonight, make sure to check it out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iEERuFgMGs

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Julian: Brilliant sideboarding and playing. You really made the most out of an ugly situation.

[Nargoron]

Had a pretty tight match vs Caleb's Tin Fins in the Legacy Mediocre League tonight, make sure to check it out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iEERuFgMGs

and that's the reason why surgical extraction has just half of it's value for me, cose i definetly can't do this xD
Yep, u r a Wizard :)

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Hey Julian: Would you be willing to take a few minutes to share with us what was going on in your head during those games. I'd understand if you want to wait until after the tournament is over--but perhaps you would write it down now and save it for later. Understanding what led you to your decisions (side boarding, what to name with hand removal, etc.) would be really helpful. As one of the commentators said, lots of people can learn to pilot the deck, almost no one has your instincts for playing it with such precision.

[thefringthing]

Hey guys
Thats Im playing for now, I put aside caos elves for now

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/431776#online

I really like win against eldrazi and lands and I board in decay so much and I wanted to take a chance in MD.

Sorry for my english
5 Parsley
12 Sage
10 Rosemary
7 Thyme

[almostnice]

First post -- I apologize in advance if this is not the spot for this post.

So, I'm looking to build Elves. I play Elves in Modern, and outside of mana dorks, Nettle Sentinels, Heritage Druids, Cavern of Souls, Fetches, I'm going to building this thing from the ground up.

I would like to play legacy at my LGS in the meantime -- they do not allow proxies.

All of this to say, practically speaking, what would be the recommended purchase plan so that I may play the deck? I am looking at buying either a Cradle or Bayou, and trading into another of the two lands.

Thank you in advance. I am hoping to even out the list and then work my way to finalizing it.

[Diogo37]

5 Parsley
12 Sage
10 Rosemary
7 Thyme


I do not know what happened, now it is right.

[dte]

All of this to say, practically speaking, what would be the recommended purchase plan so that I may play the deck? I am looking at buying either a Cradle or Bayou, and trading into another of the two lands.

Definitely Cradle. It is a very important piece. If you can buy two lands, go for two cradles and play an overgrown tomb.
And since you do not have the cradle playset, play some crop rotations and a SB bokuja bog.

Mana acceleration is really important.

[Julian23]

Finally finished my tournament report for GP Prague. Check it out on my blog:

GP Prague — 226th with Elves (http://itsjulian.com/?p=2320)

[dwarshaw]

Great tournament report Julian. Any chance you could speak more to why you switched back to the order version. I am trying to decide which version to run next week on MTGO to try and qualify for the legacy championships.

[AznSeal]

Great tournament report Julian. Any chance you could speak more to why you switched back to the order version. I am trying to decide which version to run next week on MTGO to try and qualify for the legacy championships.

The NO version is better against lesser skilled players, which makes it better for a GP IMO. It's also pretty good against Eldrazi.

[Ezuri]

Guys. What about Vexing Shusher? anybody tested it (as sideboard card)? Great against force of will, daze etc. But also get's us past Chalice on one (the vexing itself is two) and countertop...

Could be a nice addition to the deck. And.. IT MAKES NATURAL ORDER COME THROUGH!

[Curby]

Shusher gets past Chalice on 2, to be clear. But I have to wonder if it's really worth it.

1) We have few enough non-Elf spells that a sideboard card that only really adds benefit to non-Elf spells might be considered of too-low impact.
2) The fact that you can only afford to run one means you won't draw it naturally, and instead must fetch it with an unprotected GSZ/NO. Chicken and egg: who's going to protect the spell you use to get the Shusher you'll use to protect your spells? :confused:
3) Lastly, my sig. What other options exist, and would Shusher be better than those options? If you fear counterspells and the decks that run them, many people already run Ruric Thar, who has the additional benefit of attacking as well as impacting the cantrips that every non-Merfolk counterspell deck uses. Others use Teeg, who foils Chalice and Force.

I'd never discourage testing a neat idea, but I'd be surprised if this one panned out.

[Zombie]

If you want to get through Chalice and Counterbalance, just up the Decay and Cavern count. Not like the deck breaks down and you gain oercentage vs. Delver etc. too.

[jjkbb2005]

I actually like Ezuri's idea, playing a GSZ for 2 to fetch Shusher is very unlikely to be countered by most players due to the fact it's largely expected that we would fetch up visionary (or if post-SB) Gaddock Teeg. With GSZ it gives us 5 copies. Unfortunately the biggest problem with Shusher is that it dies to a slew of things (StP, Decay, Dismember, etc.) and we have no way to protect it with something like Wirewood, also relying on our opponent to have no answer to it probably makes it too weak to warrant a spot in the SB.

[Julian23]

Elves, especially of the Chaos variety, is at a point where people sometimes even side out Counterbalance against because we're so overly prepared for it. The big thing we still haven't found a really good way around is Terminus.

If I was concerned about Counterbalance, there's probably 5-10 other cards I'd include in the SB before turning to Vexing Shusher, which does almost nothing. And against Chalice, you're either heavily favored anyways (Merfolk, MUD) OR GSZ'ing for Vexing Shusher is WAY too slow anyways (Eldrazi). Hell, it's gotten to a point where Abrupt Decay(!) is often too slow vs Eldrazi when you're on the draw.

[Lemnear]

Guys. What about Vexing Shusher? anybody tested it (as sideboard card)? Great against force of will, daze etc. But also get's us past Chalice on one (the vexing itself is two) and countertop...


Shusher gets past Chalice on 2, to be clear. But I have to wonder if it's really worth it.

I'd never discourage testing a neat idea, but I'd be surprised if this one panned out.

I really wonder whats fucking wrong with this thread to discuss the same issues every two pages and people coming up with hilarious idea to tackle issues we solved months ago.

[Shagstaman]

Vexing shusher would be fine if it was ONLY miracles we had to worry about..

but even then...it's not counterbalance that does us in normally...it's 1 mana wraths and 3 mana armies in a can.

for the purpose of not being toxic and inviting new/fresh ideas-- I like the thought of shusher. I've been known to cast that guy in modern before (uncounterable scapeshifts are fun...who needs boseju!?)...but he's just a BIT too slow for what we need in this deck imo.

Personally, Ima just keep on keeping on...my win % with the current version of the deck in the current meta is ridiculously high. IF they ban miracles like some pros are calling for-- I will win lots and lots of legacy tournaments, because the number of "horrendous" matchups will be sliced almost in half (since there's less reanimator/sneak/pox total than there is total# of miracles players). Until then however, we're in fine shape. No need for alarm/discord. elf power!

[Lemnear]

for the purpose of not being toxic and inviting new/fresh ideas-- I like the thought of shusher. I've been known to cast that guy in modern before (uncounterable scapeshifts are fun...who needs boseju!?)...but he's just a BIT too slow for what we need in this deck imo.

In order to being less toxic, I want to elaborate why I'd call Shusher a bad inclusion: It doesn't solve the Chalice/Counterbalance issue, but makes you pay extra mana every time you try to resolve a spell and you are back in a horrible position, if he eats Plowshares or the like. What is the exact advantage of this creature compared to R.Sage which simply geta rid of the permanent and works with Symbiote & GSZ too? Whats the advantage compared to discard against Counter (not that recent iterations of Elves do care much about counters at all)? These are fundamental questions which need to be asked before suggesting a card imo.

Raise the number of decays in your Sideboard first, if Counterbalance/Chalice is your concern. If 4 Decay is not enough, take a look at Sages/KrosanGrips in addition

[Shagstaman]

:cool:
I agree on all points with this analysis...good breakdown.

*hums Britney spears while at work*

[Ezuri]

Thanks for the respons. I agree on the input.

@ Julian: I am obviously wondering what those 5-10 other cards would be.

Indeed we only would need one susher (GSZ) and people aren't going to counter a GSZ on two mana I believe.
Problem with ruricThar is the fact that he requires a lot more mana to tutor. And a Ruric on hand isn't that nice. A susher can be played much easier.

I apologize for randomly suggesting a card. The idea just passed my mind.

Currently playing 2 caverns of souls and a reclamation sage MB and SB 3 decays and 2 thought seize, 2 cabal therapy and 2 surgical extraction.
Still running into lots of counter (daze and FoW) against NO.
Could be my meta, could be my play.

[Lemnear]

Thanks for the respons. I agree on the input.

@ Julian: I am obviously wondering what those 5-10 other cards would be.

Indeed we only would need one susher (GSZ) and people aren't going to counter a GSZ on two mana I believe.
Problem with ruricThar is the fact that he requires a lot more mana to tutor. And a Ruric on hand isn't that nice. A susher can be played much easier.

I apologize for randomly suggesting a card. The idea just passed my mind.

Currently playing 2 caverns of souls and a reclamation sage MB and SB 3 decays and 2 thought seize, 2 cabal therapy and 2 surgical extraction.
Still running into lots of counter (daze and FoW) against NO.
Could be my meta, could be my play.

NO has a "COUNTER ME!" Las Vegas Casino sign on its back, so if you want to minimize the damage from 2-for-1'ing yourself in the face of counters, don't opt to beat the hate with Shusher/Discard, but sidestep it by not running such an obvious counter target in the first place. Don't fall into the trap of diluting your deck with fatties, NO, discard and stuff, if you could simply race them with a bunch of green creatures, rather than acting like a bad combo deck in that situation. Go make it hard for them to counter the right spell and apply pressure rather than fighting over NO, which you don't NEED to win.

TL;DR: NO was never the right choice to fight control decks.

P.S.: All your sideboard needs to cover atm is permanent hate and combo matchups.

[Zombie]

Thanks for the respons. I agree on the input.

@ Julian: I am obviously wondering what those 5-10 other cards would be.

Indeed we only would need one susher (GSZ) and people aren't going to counter a GSZ on two mana I believe.
Problem with ruricThar is the fact that he requires a lot more mana to tutor. And a Ruric on hand isn't that nice. A susher can be played much easier.

I apologize for randomly suggesting a card. The idea just passed my mind.

Currently playing 2 caverns of souls and a reclamation sage MB and SB 3 decays and 2 thought seize, 2 cabal therapy and 2 surgical extraction.
Still running into lots of counter (daze and FoW) against NO.
Could be my meta, could be my play.

It probably is your play. Elves is a deck that can do a lot of things well, but not quite the best. The nature of the deck is that it's a proactive deck: You build your own resources to the point and in a way that the opponent can't deal with them and win from there. You can play like Shardless and wall people's attackers out while drawing a ton of cards, vomit out tons of dudes with Glimpse and Packmaster, field big bodies like Packmaster, NO targets, Ooze.If the opponent can't interact on the stack very well, you can just kill them. You can imitate a traditional Sligh deck (low-curve red aggro with a bunch of burn) by just playing little dudes, refueling with small Glimpses and using Deathrite and Shaman of the Pack as burn spells. You can do just about everything. Just about every deck has something it has a hard time dealing with. Find that thing and do it.

The reason I said it was probably your play was what Lemnear alluded to above: Countering single big spells that the opponent builds their gameplan around is something Daze decks are pretty much built to do: Storm decks fight through it by going in really quick (TES, Elves isn't that fast), or shredding their hand until they can punch the combo through (ANT, Elves is fast enough but can't include discard without making the combo unwieldy). You don't want to be a countermagic-less Tinker deck or a discardless Storm deck against Delver decks. That's just asking to get yourself killed.

What do Delver decks have trouble dealing with, then? Well, raw card advantage is one thing. Shardless wins against just about every Delver deck, Elves' strongest gameplan is grindy card advantage heavy board control. You can fog their attackers, Decay their attackers, draw tons of cards with small Glimpses, Visionary engine, Sylvan Library. Sounds good to me. What else do they have trouble with? Just about anything extreme, really. Delver decks win by keeping the board state in hand and winning on efficiency. So go out of hand. Nonwhite Delver decks have tons of problems dealing with big bodies - Packmaster and Ooze are fantastic. TES kills Delver by vomiting out a ton of Goblins. If you can play a lot of dudes quickly or spam tokens with Packmaster or Dwynen's Elite or a Planeswalker, do so. Delver players will hate you. Elves can do combo, but it isn't a capable combo deck in many matchups, and in those you absolutely should just play fair, which the deck is really good at.

NO is more for decks that just don't run much countermagic like nonblue midrange decks (inc. Shardless) and Eldrazi, where you can just end them on the spot, and is useful for racing opposing combo decks if you have it in the 75. It's the hammer in fair matchups when you've ground the opponent's resources out some. It's the threat that encourages them to kill your dudes to manage Hoof's instakill potential, a Damocles' sword forcing them into conservative play so you can beat them in the value game while they're busy shitting their pants. A lot like Infect's capability to just kill people out of the blue. If Infect is a RUG/Storm deck, Elves is a Shardless/Show and Tell/Storm deck. For both, the fair gameplan is Plan A.

[Krasman]

Guys. What about Vexing Shusher? anybody tested it (as sideboard card)? Great against force of will, daze etc. But also get's us past Chalice on one (the vexing itself is two) and countertop...

Could be a nice addition to the deck. And.. IT MAKES NATURAL ORDER COME THROUGH!

I have had some success lately with Gaea's Herald in the board.

There is a decent number of CotV decks in my meta that this really helps against; I also sideboard this in versus miracles, although it is definitely less good there.

It will not help Natural Order resolve, but that is a terrible card against miracles anyway.

[Echelon]

The problem with these cards is that they all fold to Terminus...

If you want to beat Miracles, run something that doesn't give a shit about Terminus. You already have ways to deal with CounterTop in the form of Abrupt Decay + (GSZ into) Reclamation Sage. All you need is a reliable finisher that does not fold to Terminus.

[Lemnear]

I have had some success lately with Gaea's Herald in the board.

Same issue like Shusher. Every Plowshares/Terminus gets rid of your ability to play through counterbalance. It solves nothing, Jon Snow

[Echelon]

Same issue like Shusher. Every Plowshares/Terminus gets rid of your ability to play through counterbalance. It solves nothing, Jon Snow

I said it first. You're getting slow :wink:.

[Lemnear]

I said it first. You're getting slow :wink:.

Just wanted to express my support ;)

[dte]

I wouldn't board in Gaea's Herald vs miracle.

The card is the contrary of what you'll like in the MU: it is a 1/1 that does nothing by itself.
The best answer to CB is cavern by far.
On the other hand, to beat terminus, you need to threaten with few cards.

Cards like Tasigur, WRP (less because you need at least an elf in play before), ooze lategame, random big guy are quite efficient.

[chewemy]

D&T is a good matchup but with the new Thalia, the glimpse route and natural order for craterhoof will be stopped :/

Thalia
2W Legendary
First Strike
Creatures and nonbasic lands your opponents play enter the battlefield tapped.
3/2

[lowpass]

D&T is a good matchup but with the new Thalia, the glimpse route and natural order for craterhoof will be stopped :/

Thalia
2W Legendary
First Strike
Creatures and nonbasic lands your opponents play enter the battlefield tapped.
3/2

Somewhat crushing if they can get it in play. I don't see how it completely stops the Hoof, though, since that gives +x/+x to ALL your creatures.

[Shagstaman]

I already bring in 4 decay vs DnT...won't change much really (except game 1, where all her abilities are relevant). It's just another hoop to jump through... I'd say the main impact will be that you can't sandbag cradles while she is in play.

disfigure or marsh casualties would be nice, clean answers--if we even need it!

[Julian23]

One thing to notice is that her uses overlap a lot with Containment Priest (good vs Sneak Show, Dredge, Elves). So here's to hoping we won't see an actual overall increase in the hate we face in that matchup.

[ParkerLewis]

Since I have almost all cards to build the deck, I was considering building it, although just for fun and not in a competitive way.

Coming from Julian's decklist (I quote)



// Lands
4 [US] Gaea's Cradle
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [R] Bayou
2 [R] Forest (3)
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [LG] Pendelhaven

// Creatures
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
1 [5E] Llanowar Elves
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
3 [MOR] Heritage Druid
2 [ON] Birchlore Rangers
2 [AVR] Craterhoof Behemoth
1 [M15] Reclamation Sage

// Spells
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [VI] Natural Order
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

Basically, since I'm not planning to play it cutthroat style

1) Cut the SB, which means the list is now mono-G.

2) Obviously now,
-2 Bayou
-8 Fetch
+10 Forest

(Unless it would be worth it to keep some fetches for filtering, but at this point I doubt it.)

3) Also -4 Deathrite : what would you suggest to replace it ? Since the original list was 61 cards (unless I'm mistaken), this means I could fit a 3-of to reach 60. Priest of Titania ? Some general utility ? What would you suggest ?

Thanks for your help.