[Primer] Elves!

[nudon]

Okay, but what's your rationale? Counterspells hit a lot harder when you have fewer threats in your deck.

In my limited testing against RUG, I felt generating 4 mana for NO wasn't that easy with all of their disruption. They also bring in submerges and rough//tumble post-board. Moreover, tapping out and getting a NO countered is about the worst thing possible and is a virtual time walk for the opponent. While I'm not sure boarding 3-4 NO out is correct, I definitely think progenitus is too slow in the matchup since he needs to swing twice. My general game-plan is to bait out their counters/removal and try to get to the end-game via symbiote/visionary recursion. Once that happens, I feel it's hard for us to lose.


Hmmm, I once added the 4th NO to overload on threats against counters ... it's strange that you now want to board it out against counters :/

I think having the 4th NO is better against discard decks because we don't waste mana when they take away our cards. Like I said above, it's a blowout if we get our NO countered. Against control decks like miracles and traditional stoneblade, I think the 4th NO is better because they don't have the clock to pressure us.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Wirewood Symbiote is a card you know. Oh you have a 4/5 goyf? Block and bounce. Oh you killed the symbiote instead of an elf? NBD, means I can combo off next turn because you didn't kill heritage druid.



I never said DRS was too slow.
Dredge wins game one. Game 2 you start and you get Ooza out turn two and have maybe one or two mana open to eat something of his. you get a turn 3 and possibly go off or not play anything to keep a fair amount of mana open to eat stuff while he still has potential to just overrun it. Game 3 you still get Ooze turn 2 but he gets turn 3 first and wins. I'd rather only need to keep one mana open (ala crop rotation) or play a creature turn one (dryad militant/DRS) and not worry about anything and just go for the win.



what
They're narrow but powerful. I also have 2 crop rotation which gives me 3 effective copies of bojuka bog.

Dredge doesn't necessarily win Game 1. I've crushed Dredge 2-0 before by using the many untap effects in the deck to keep using Deathrite Shaman to exile Ichorids and stuff. You can also exile their Bridge from Belows by Crop Rotating Dryad Arbor. Cute but it works. Scavenging Ooze is definitely great. I board him in against RUG and he is great because he can get out of burn range (yeah Submerge sucks but what in our deck isn't bad against that card?), gain me life, and eat cards from their graveyard to shrink Mongoose and Tarmogoyf. Ooze is generally good against most DRS decks or Threshold-needing decks. I do agree with what you said about RUG Delver not being a bad matchup though. Only their Forces are very relevant usually. They cannot possibly have a blazing fast clock, removal for all our guys, AND counters for all our trumps at once unless we draw quite poorly.

[PendelSteven]

Merfolk: -2 heritage, -1 NO, +2 decay, +1 ooze

My question: do you side in the decay's vs. Aether Vial and lords in general?

Since the way I view Merfolk is like someone else feel like againt Delver: the only problem are the flyers in the deck. In this deck, Coralhelm Commander has cost me the game far too often, so I recommend bringing more destruction you can use Vial specifically so you can Decay their stupid flying Merfolk. Often 5/5 flying Merfolk :-/.



Let me add this thought. Many of you see this Elves-deck as a reasonably fast combo deck. The way I view this deck is that we're often defending (Symbiote/Elf / Ranger/Dryad) until we can find an "Overrun", in our case, often with Symbiote/Visionary and/or Glimpse+Heritage+Nettle Sentilnel to find NO, Hoof or GSZ. Actually, that is why the core of the deck is Symbiote, Visionary, Green Sun Zenith, Glimpse of Nature, Nettle Sentinel and to a lesser extend Querion Ranger, Dryad Arbour and Craterhoof Behemoth.

This defending until we find the overrun, makes it that we often get in a boardstall vs slower decks that can be broken by flyers and other unblockable creatures. Imho this is where Abrupt Decay (and Beast Within before it) shines.

Please note that DRS completely supports the deck if viewed like this. The incidental life gain and life loss on the other side is great in a boardstall...

[Lemnear]

So you don't think that we run the full set of NO, Glimpse and GSZ (X=8) and 2 Hoofs in order to be the aggressor and end the game fast? I do ... successful

DRS/Symbiote/Visionary are secondary options, if you can't find the primer options or see them discarded/countered. They are a bridge ... nothing more

Don't try to be the control-deck with Elves.

[Dice_Box]

So you don't think that we run the full set of NO, Glimpse and GSZ (X=8) and 2 Hoofs in order to end the game fast? I do. DRS/Symbiote/Visionary are secondary options, if you can't find the primer options or see them discarded/countered.

Don't try to be the control-deck with Elves.I agree to all points here. Elves is strongest when it has more threats than can be answered. It's an aggro deck that combos off, you need to put up a fight.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Absolutflipz]

I agree to all points here. Elves is strongest when it has more threats than can be answered. It's an aggro deck that combos off, you need to put up a fight.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

I'm on the same page, with some side notes.

Against RUG I like to go down to 2 Natural Orders (from 3) because:

A) Daze/Spell Pierce and lots of removal don't make for the best times for the 4-mana sac a dude sorcery
B) I bring in 2 Chokes as equally, if not more back-breaking spells to try to resolve

(Keep in mind, I'm only taking one Natural Order out, so it's not like I don't think it's workable against RUG)

I also like to take out both Hooves and bring in the 1 Progenitus.

I find Progenitus is plenty fast enough, as the game is usually grindy enough that your life gain from Deathrite/Ooze and Decay on Delver should buy you enough time.

Further, Hoof is much more underwhelming since they have Stifle and it's much harder to resolve a NO into Hoof with multiple other, un-sumoning sick elves available.

[nudon]

My question: do you side in the decay's vs. Aether Vial and lords in general?

I haven't really had problems with merfolk. In fact, most merfolk players tell me they don't like seeing elves on the other side so I don't think the third decay is necessary.


So you don't think that we run the full set of NO, Glimpse and GSZ (X=8) and 2 Hoofs in order to be the aggressor and end the game fast? I do ... successful DRS/Symbiote/Visionary are secondary options, if you can't find the primer options or see them discarded/countered. They are a bridge ... nothing more

Don't try to be the control-deck with Elves.

I thought about it some more and think you and igri are right. Bringing in the 3 decays slows down delver, which is the only scary creature in their deck in my opinion. I think I will try: -2 heritage druid, -2 nettle, -1 hoof, +3 decay, +1 ooze, +1 prog. I usually don't board out nettles but don't think they're that great against RUG, especially when taking out heritage druids too. Also, stifle in conjunction with wasteland makes quirion ranger (which I usually board out) more important.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Second place finish last night with the same list I played at the last tournament, minus the Emrakul, Priest of Titania, and two Faerie Macabre, plus 4 Cabal Therapy in the sb.

Round 1 vs. Aaron with Maverick

Game 1 he plays typical Maverick guys and taps out for a Knight of the Reliquary and a Deathrite Shaman or something and I NO out Hoof and kill him with ease.

I forgot what I boarded out but I boarding in the 4th NO and Progenitus

Game 2 I draw Progenitus on the first turn :mad: and Aaron gets a turn 2 Ethersworn Canonist, then flashes in Aven Mindcensor in response to my attempted Green Sun's Zenith for Viridian Shaman. I anticipated this play but unfortunately I had no other choice so my Zenith gets me a random dork instead. I slowly play dudes, he slowly plays dudes. I eventually play Craterhoof Behemoth and swing but he has Maze of Ith for the Behemoth itself and blocks with a Noble Hierarch to be at 2 life instead of 1 (lol). Aaron pings me with Mindcensor for a while and I start using Wirewood Symbiote to replay Elvish Visionary every turn. Eventually I start discarding dorks to hand size and exiling them with my Deathrite Shaman to gain some life. Aaron lands a Knight and starts accumulating lands in his grave, but I start exiling them with DRS. Eventually round time is called so we have 5 turns left. Thanks to my DRS shrinking Aaron's Knight and eating my dead creatures, he is not able to finish me off with Mindcensor, a Scryb Ranger, and Knight pro-green'd by Mother of Runes. Aaron lands his own DRS but on my last turn (while his DRS is still summoning sick) I exile a Glimpse I had played just to get it in the grave and finish him off.

1-0 2-0

Round 2 vs. Josh with 4 Color Cascade

Game 1 was rather uneventful. Josh played a few of his guys and brainstormed a couple times. Before that I thought he was on Jund because he played a DRS and Punishing Fire'd one of my elves. I had an early NO into Hoof and killed him.

Out 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Priest of Titania, In 2 Scavenging Ooze

Game 2, Scavenging Ooze kicked Josh's ass. He played a DRS, Shardless Agent (I cannot for the life of me remember what he cascaded into), and two Tarmogoyfs, and burned a couple of my dorks. I played some elves, Green Sun's Zenith'd into Ooze, ate two of my dead elves and swung for 4 before he had the goyfs. I used my own DRS and Ooze to prevent him from doing anything with his graveyard until Ooze got Maelstrom Pulse'd. I Zenith'd for a Visionary and got a bit of card advantage. Josh dropped a Sylvan Library. Then he had two card in his hand so I baited with Crop Rotation and he obliged pitching Shardless Agent to Force of Will. Next turn I resolved NO and won. During this round I look over to my left and see somebody get turn 1'd twice by Tin Fins, and I'm like please God don't let me face that guy.

2-0 4-0

Round 3 vs. Taylor with 4 color Zombardment (?) or something, I dunno, kinda like Junk with a red splash for Goblin Bombardment

I have a terrible record against Taylor and I'm hoping for redemption. Game 1 he has double Tidehollow Sculler and I just happened to draw both Craterhoof Behemoth and Regal Force, so he takes both of those and later sacrifices the scullers to flashback two Cabal Therapies to send both my fatties to the grave. :(
I play some guys both Taylor gets a million spirit tokens from Lingering Souls, ravages my hand with discard, and decimates me.

Out I forget, In 1 Natural Order, 1 Progenitus

Game 2 I have a sweet hand with Natural Order and a combotastic mix of elves. Of course I proceed to draw Progenitus AGAIN. Wtf? It doesn't matter. Taylor can't really do anything as I Glimpse combo and charge for way past lethal.

Game 3 Unfortunately ends in a draw as we run out of time after Taylor has done serious damage to my hand with discard and Perished away my field, but has resolved no threats yet by the time five turns are over.

2-0-1 5-1-1

Round 4 vs. Elliot with Tin Fins (Yep. THAT guy. lol)

I look at the match pairings and get a sinking feeling as I now have to face one of the worst matchups ever. To make matters worse, my opponent is a person who crushed me a while ago with RUG Delver when I was playing Maverick, by nut drawing three Submerges in a row and using them all on my poor Mother of Runes to triple time walk me out of the game. I hope this time he doesn't have such great luck.

Game 1 Elliot doesn't do anything except play lands for a couple turns while I play some dorks and swing in. Sadly, on turn 3 he plays Show and Tell, gets Griselbrand, draws a million cards, Dark Rituals into an Entomb and Reanimate Children of Korlis, sacs that and draws the rest of his deck basically. I scoop.

Out 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Priest of Titania, 4 Elvish Visionary, 1 Joraga Warcaller, 1 Regal Force, In 2 Surgical Extraction, 2 Scavenging Ooze, 4 Cabal Therapy

Game 2 I have a Surgical Extraction in my opener and some guys and land so I keep. I play some dudes. Elliot Gitaxian Probes me and sees my Extraction. He cantrips once or twice. I beat him down with dorks until he's too low to use Griselbrand. He Entombs one and plays Animate Dead, I surgical in response, and he Shallow Grave's in response. Griselbrand comes in and hits me, Elliot draws until he can't anymore but he cannot finish me and I have lethal on board so he scoops. Holy shit I beat Tin Fins with Elves!

Game 3 Elliot is too afraid of Deathrite Shaman. He turn 1 Cabal Therapies me naming DRS. I don't have it but I do have my own Therapy and GSZ with some dorks. I turn 1 Therapy him back naming Entomb like a fool and he shows a land, Lotus Petal, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, and Hapless Researcher. I kick myself for not naming Brainstorm or Dark Ritual, both of which I was considering naming. Elliot plays the Petal, Researcher, and Brainstorm, and sacs Researcher to flashback Cabal Therapy nabbing my Zenith. I topdeck DRS obviously and play it. LOL. On his turn Elliot casts his Dark Ritual, Entombs and Reanimates Griselbrand (he is now at 10 life). He draws 7 with Griselbrand, plays a Petal and another Dark Ritual, and Show and Tells Iona into play naming green. Fuck. I instantly wonder, do I lose? But I look at my board, double check Elliot's life total (3), and smile. "My turn? Tap Bayou for black, tap Deathrite Shaman to exile your Show and Tell, you lose two life. Activate Quirion Ranger, return Bayou to untap DRS. Play Bayou as land for turn, tap for black, tap DRS to exile your Dark Ritual, you lose two life." And just like that, Elliot is dead. Victory!

3-0-1 7-2-1

They were going to do 5 rounds which would have probably meant me winning the tournament since the guy in first was playing Grixis Tempo, but they decided not to have the last round. Booooo. I still get second place and get a foil Jace Beleren, the cool looking one. Yay. They had other options for prizes but I didn't care about any of them.

Props:
Deathrite Shaman was a house. I personally won two games I would otherwise not have won. Three of my four opponents were also playing him, lol.
Turning a 1-0 win into a 2-0 win thanks to last second DRS activation
Seeing only one Force of Will the whole tournament
Not facing either of the two Miracles players (one of whom was the guy that Tin Fins beat turn 1 twice)
Beating Tin Fins with Elves!

Slops:
Drawing Progenitus EVERY time I sided him in. wtf.
Perish. Hate that card.
Elliot taking forever to play every turn
Removing the Faerie Macabres from my sb because "no one's gonna be playing Reanimator" *facepalm*

Thanks for reading!

[Chrandersen]

I played elves last weekend in Cincinnati and felt like I had the best deck in the room.

4 deathrite shaman
4 fyndhorn/llanowar elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Priest of Titania

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
9 Green Fetchlands
4 Gaea's Cradle

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
2 Meekstone
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dryad Arbor

Only losses were to belcher and omniscience when I got flooded. Looks like I'm back to casting Elvish Visionarys for the foreseeable future : )

[Koby]

Chranderson, what happened to the Mirror Entity build? Why did you abandon it this last showing?

[Chrandersen]

As much as I like entity, I recognize that Natural Order is a more robust and powerful deck while sacrificing almost no consistency. I think entity is still good as a value card, but the combo with her is almost completely unnecessary now. Therefore I am playing an Ezuri instead, so I can zenith for my "entity".

[Zombie]

WOW. Thats fucking nuts. Pity the other two abilities are not that helpful for us.

I've heard Miracles really, really likes planeswalkers that make tokens.

[Zombie]

I played elves last weekend in Cincinnati and felt like I had the best deck in the room.

4 deathrite shaman
4 fyndhorn/llanowar elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Priest of Titania

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
9 Green Fetchlands
4 Gaea's Cradle

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
2 Meekstone
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dryad Arbor

Only losses were to belcher and omniscience when I got flooded. Looks like I'm back to casting Elvish Visionarys for the foreseeable future : )

Meekstone <3
Priest and Regal still seem kinda bad, though. Did they pull their weight at all?
Why the extra Thoughtseize?

[Lemnear]

I've heard Miracles really, really likes planeswalkers that make tokens.

The same Miracle-players which first shrink Tarmogoyf and Mongoose first with Rest in Piece, just to Terminus them later anyways? lol

Honestly, I have the impression, that a large potion of pilots simply don't understand the beauty of Miracles and thus fail to crappy Token-generators

[Kayradis]

So,good news this week eh!
Crandersen back on Elves.

Shit gonna be reaaaaaaaal!

Who's thinking about playing the deck in DC?

[igri_is_a_bk]

Meekstone is interesting because RUG has no reason to bring in Ancient Grudge for game two and they may not get a chance for game three. Although, we already have Ooze and Decay, which are also great here, and I think more applicable across the legacy scene.

Hang on, you're missing Ooze in the 75. Have you tested him? He's a cheap, disruptive threat that gets bonkers w/ Cradle.

[Kayradis]

True.
Meekstone is one fun thing....

[Chrandersen]

I don't really like ooze right now. DRS does enough regarding graveyard removal, and you dont really have a need for a large body. Ooze is a fine man and I suppose you could cut a meekstone if you felt so inclined. I just really like meekstone. I have never lost a game where I cast one against rug.

Thoughtseize is awesome and I would add one before I cut one.

Priest is very good against sneak and show. Also it's too powerful not to have as a green sun's zenith target, especially with 3 quirion rangers and 4 symbiotes.

Regal Force is better than the second Craterhoof, because it plays much better with green sun's zenith. Gszing for hoof kinda sucks because you usually tapped all your guys to cast the zenith. With regal it doesn't matter if they're tapped, you still get the cards.

[HammafistRoob]

But a lot of times when you'rd drawing 20 cards off glimpse you'd end up drawing your hoof and then have to pass the turn. Regal Force sucks.

[Lemnear]

I don't really like ooze right now. DRS does enough regarding graveyard removal, and you dont really have a need for a large body. Ooze is a fine man and I suppose you could cut a meekstone if you felt so inclined. I just really like meekstone. I have never lost a game where I cast one against rug.

Thoughtseize is awesome and I would add one before I cut one.

Priest is very good against sneak and show. Also it's too powerful not to have as a green sun's zenith target, especially with 3 quirion rangers and 4 symbiotes.

Regal Force is better than the second Craterhoof, because it plays much better with green sun's zenith. Gszing for hoof kinda sucks because you usually tapped all your guys to cast the zenith. With regal it doesn't matter if they're tapped, you still get the cards.

Please read the thread from the beginning. He had the topics of 2nd Hoof vs. Regal Force and the application of Ooze well covered.

Regal Force does nothing if you face combo, sweepers or stifle

[igri_is_a_bk]

Priest is very good against sneak and show. Also it's too powerful not to have as a green sun's zenith target, especially with 3 quirion rangers and 4 symbiotes.

Regal Force is better than the second Craterhoof, because it plays much better with green sun's zenith. Gszing for hoof kinda sucks because you usually tapped all your guys to cast the zenith. With regal it doesn't matter if they're tapped, you still get the cards.

I don't think you've tested without Priest or Regal Force because these were undeniable staples in the old elves deck. I understand they are skeptic changes, and I was highly suspicious when I made them. But I can tell you, Priest is unnecessary most games. Sneak and Show is not as popular as OmniTell, where Priest (and all of our creatures outside the sb) are useless. One deck that makes up a very small percentage of the field is not worth it. Priest has been in my binder for months.

I know you would have hesitation to get your first Hoof when it wouldn't be lethal because you only have one total. Hence you place a lot of value on it. If you have the second, you'll be glad to get the first one and put some pressure on your opponent. And I really don't buy that you can GSZ for x=8 yet you can't attack with any other creature besides the Hoof. The frequency of that happening is really low between Nettle, Quirion and Symbiote in the deck.

[nudon]

In addition to all of the good points above, I just want to add that 4 llanowar/fyndhorn/mystic is definitely wrong. Most of us are down to 0/1 now. I'll admit that you need to work gsz->arbor harder now than in the past but the 4th heritage druid and X number of birchlores add way more explosiveness, especially in conjunction with cradles. Also, the nice benefit of fetching arbor early is at least you don't have to worry about drawing it later. Like Lemnear said, I suggest you read the thread from start to finish to see how the deck has progressed since GP Denver.

[Lemnear]

I don't literally mean reading 50+ pages, but all the topics and arguments for the quantities of NO, Cradles, Birchlores, Lands, Llanowars, Hoofs, Sideboard-Fatties, etc. are all in those 50 pages. If needed you can search for it.

As mentioned, the 50 pages cover the Transformation since GP Denver which imo turned the deck into a total beast



Edit:
Sadly, I feel the deck has caped it's development capacity for the moment :/
I may need a new archtype to flip over and rebuild...

[Chrandersen]

In those situations you either cast the craterhoof and win the game because you've clearly full blown combod if you've drawn 20 cards, or you pass the turn and win the game next turn.

Regal force is awesome.

[Chrandersen]

And yes I tested this version of the deck without regal force and without priest. And lol at telling me to read the forum.

[danyul]

And yes I tested this version of the deck without regal force and without priest. And lol at telling me to read the forum.

Yeah you guys post at a very high frequency in here. I can barely keep up and all I do is read. Chrandersen, the Crown Prince of Pendelhaven, likely has other things to do with his time. I have other things to do too, like trying desperately not to be unemployed, but that's a story for another day.

I just find it disturbing when 3-4 posters in a row have the audacity to so openly question the list of the guy who reinvigorated our chosen archetype. Do people tell Gerry T how to build his Shardless list? I mean maybe they do in that thread. I haven't checked. But if they do, that's kinda gross.

Success with this deck, more than any other deck IMO, relies more on playskill than decklist optimization. I understand that you guys are trying to fine tune an engine, but you can't ignore the driver in that equation, although it is a much more vague and difficult metric to measure. And this deck, likely more than any other, is especially forgiving when it comes to SUPER EXACT X's and Y's in the list. If you have a list that works for you, and you are winning with it, then I don't see a huge reason to change just because some forum shlub (and I count myself among that number) feels that you aren't playing an "optimized" list.

Of course there are some common sense exceptions to that rule (plz don't play Eladamri). But for the most part, we should all be able to run *somewhat different, yet mostly similar* lists of 75 and still be able to have happy fun elf times together.

That said, there are some personal qualms I have with Chrandersen's lists. But all that means is that I wouldn't take his exact list to a tourney I was playing in. That doesn't mean I feel like I should tell the Welterweight of Wirewood and Titan of Titania what list he should take to his next event.

Priest is still a card that taps for a bunch of mana. R.Force is still a card that can draw you out of a jam. Just because the "forum meta" of what an Elf deck "should" look like has changed, that doesn't mean Priest and R.Force are now blanks or dead cards. They are still great at what they do. Am I fanboying too hard on Chrandersen? Perhaps. But if so, then you guys aren't quite fanboying hard enough. At the very least you should give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he knows what he is doing (because he does). If your suggestions are truly more efficient or whatever, I'm sure he will come to the same suggestions in time. Or he will just continue playing his own list. Whatever. As long as you do well (in a legit tourney!), I find it difficult to question your list. Even if you don't do well, sometimes Lady Luck can ruin your day.

There isn't a Right or Wrong list here. There is just a Your Deck and a My Deck. And if the player is good enough, they are all weapons with which we will destroy our non-Elven foes.

But please, fuckin please, do not play Eladamri.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

This is my first post; though, I've been a lurker for some time.

I have been having some trouble with Miracles. I know that we all agree that this is a tough match for us. But I want to improve my odds against Miracles, as it's a hot deck in the metagame where I play. How do we realistically deal with Miracles?

[nudon]

@Daniel: To be fair, we (the elves thread) last heard from Chrandersen during the weekend of GP Denver when he borrowed the Nass-ty LSV list for the SCG event. Since then, he's top 8'ed a few times with tezzerator but hasn't openly played elves. I'm sure all of us agree that the play skill of the pilot is more important than anything else. Moreover, no one (as far as I know) is questioning Chrandersen's capability. However without context, it's difficult to gauge exactly how much he's followed the elves build over the past 8 months. He even stated himself "Looks like I'm back to casting Elvish Visionarys for the foreseeable future : )" To the average eye, this suggests that he put elves aside and had at least temporarily picked up another deck. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with offering suggestions to the Prince of Pendelhaven, especially given the context. As far as we know, he's a cool guy and should be open to suggestions.

[danyul]

I'm open to suggestions about people offering suggestions, but most of the "suggestion" posts have been more like "you're wrong, do this" posts or "that sucks, why are you playing it" posts.

Chrandersen has historically done just fine without having to poke his head in to this little corner of the internets.

And it's totally OK to switch up decks. I shelved this deck entirely when Miracles was everywhere in my meta. Do you think the Lord of Llanowar would forget the smell of grass? Would the Ambassador of Argoth forget the shade of his elder tree?

@Lord_of_Rivendell - You aren't going to like this, but if Miracles is a huge meta presence for you, you might wanna move into Jund or BUG Control. If you just wanna beat it the times you see it once in awhile, then okay. We can talk about that. But if you will have to face it regularly and need a plan to beat it on a consistent basis, then you actually just want a whole new deck.

[Lemnear]

In those situations you either cast the craterhoof and win the game because you've clearly full blown combod if you've drawn 20 cards, or you pass the turn and win the game next turn.

Regal force is awesome.

If you draw more than 6 cards with Regal Force, Craterhoof would have been deadly between Nettle, Quirion and Symbiote, just for info.

Passing the turn is a bad idea with S&T, Terminus and Storm in the meta, therefore the focus on Hoof over Regal


@Daniel
Though I disagree that your registered lists are pretty wayne with Elves as long as the pilot is good, I do have a slight problem with the idea that a previous successful player doesn't need to catch up on the meta, new printings or other development due to the plain fact that he WAS a vocal member of the Elves-crowd more than half a year ago.

I have no clue what his latest known state of art with Elves is since he's a member with 20 posts, so that would have been helpful to know. If you suddenly think Regal is a valid option for the meta, then why do you run 2 Hoofs? Because it's better in the current meta! That's all the other users care about too. That's why some run Birchlores over Llanowars, cut C.Rotations or alter the manabase. If we keep our eyes on the success of previous iterations and players we would all still play 16-lands-Emrakul. It's not that todays GROW-strategies in Vintage would exist without Stephen Menendian, but regardless of that, the archtype left Quirion Dryad behind without his initial approval


Edit: Is there a problem if the thread develops while you have, without a doubt, more important things to do?

[Chrandersen]

If you draw more than 6 cards with Regal Force, Craterhoof would have been deadly between Nettle, Quirion and Symbiote, just for info.

Passing the turn is a bad idea with S&T, Terminus and Storm in the meta, therefore the focus on Hoof over Regal


@Daniel
Though I disagree that your registered lists are pretty wayne with Elves as long as the pilot is good, I do have a slight problem with the idea that a previous successful player doesn't need to catch up on the meta, new printings or other development due to the plain fact that he WAS a vocal member of the Elves-crowd more than half a year ago.

I have no clue what his latest known state of art with Elves is since he's a member with 20 posts, so that would have been helpful to know. If you suddenly think Regal is a valid option for the meta, then why do you run 2 Hoofs? Because it's better in the current meta! That's all the other users care about too. That's why some run Birchlores over Llanowars, cut C.Rotations or alter the manabase. If we keep our eyes on the success of previous iterations and players we would all still play 16-lands-Emrakul. It's not that todays GROW-strategies in Vintage would exist without Stephen Menendian, but regardless of that, the archtype left Quirion Dryad behind without his initial approval


Edit: Is there a problem if the thread develops while you have, without a doubt, more important things to do?


Okay I'll try to carefully articulate my thoughts for you.

Craterhoof is better than regal force in regards to natural order. You almost always want to get hoof with NO given the option.

Even though crater hoof is better than regal in that situation, regal is still excellent and will usually win the game anyway if hoof is already in your hand and you can't search for it. You get to load your hand up, have the biggest creature on the board, and are in a great position to cast hoof the next turn. Yes it's slightly worse than hoof x2 IN THIS SITUATION, but it's still good enough to win the game ALMOST EVERY TIME ANYWAY.

Regal force is MUCH MUCH MUCH better with green sun's zenith. You usually need to tap all of your elves and use your symbiote/quirion activations to get up to nine mana without the help of double cradle. I've played a lot of games with this deck with double hoof and this situation came up for ,e over and over again and it was very frustrating. I was usually just better off zenithing for a visionary in those situations and grinding them out. It doesn't matter what resources you use to get to regal zenith mana, because regal doesn't care whether your elves are tapped or not, you still get the cards you need. And zenithing for a regal is a GAME WINNING play against a ton of decks, and definitely a powerful line you can shape a gameplan around. The same really can't be said of craterhoof. When you have the mana to zenith for eight AND have enough guys to attack them for lethal afterward, you are probably in a pretty dominating position anyways, and zenithing for either creature is more than enough to put the game away.

Heritage Druid sucks, and it has always sucked. Especially now that we are playing glimpse as a plan C. Same with birchlore ranger. I played a birchlore at the invitational in jersey and used it zero times. They are only really good when comboing with glimpse, and are usually your worst creature when you aren't. They are a great lightning rod for removal though because most people are clueless and think she should be kill on sight. Fyndhorn effects are even better turn 1 plays because they set you up for turn 3 natural orders, which is incredibly important against combo. With 7 creatures that untap other creatures, I always want a Fyndhorn of some kind available to me. I could see playing 3 but I don't know what would be better than the fourth one.

Zenith for Priest of Titania is too of a turn 2 play against combo decks to cut. You want to be a turn 3 deck if you can, and priest does a very good job of setting you up for a kill. It's definitely worth a slot.

Scavenging Ooze is a good card, but I don't think you need the gy removal utility in the open series meta game right now. There isn't much dredge around, almost no Reanimator, and DRS does a great job of handling those decks anyway. The main reason you would want him is for his big body, and I think Ezuri does a better job of being a huge man than ooze does. Especially since double cradle is a thing now.

Just because I haven't been playing the deck in opens doesn't mean I'm not paying attention to the development of the deck. This deck is my baby and I'm constantly working with it. Also the condescension is pretty amusing. At least now I have 21 posts o the source. Hopefully that makes me slightly more legit :D
P.S. <3 danyul

[Dice_Box]

I have 21 posts o the source. Hopefully that makes me slightly more legit :DMakes you old enough to drink...

I think I will give a shot at your list and see what I find. I am not a Fan of Priest with 4 Cradles tho. If you're going all out to try and get that mana, I can see how GSZ can help, but I just feel like personally, I would rather have a rotation there. Thing is I can see that you're using Preset to push Regal force as a Mana buff. But how do you deal when you do not have that large mana influx? Say you get your mana elves burnt out or GSZ is counted? What do you do then?

Edit: -4 Symbiote? I really really really don't like that. Makes the deck seam a touch neutered.

[Lemnear]

Okay I'll try to carefully articulate my thoughts for you.

Craterhoof is better than regal force in regards to natural order. You almost always want to get hoof with NO given the option.

Even though crater hoof is better than regal in that situation, regal is still excellent and will usually win the game anyway if hoof is already in your hand and you can't search for it.

with 2 Hoofs there's still one left in the deck to NO for in that case ;D

You get to load your hand up, have the biggest creature on the board, and are in a great position to cast hoof the next turn. Yes it's slightly worse than hoof x2 IN THIS SITUATION, but it's still good enough to win the game ALMOST EVERY TIME ANYWAY.

Regal force is MUCH MUCH MUCH better with green sun's zenith. You usually need to tap all of your elves and use your symbiote/quirion activations to get up to nine mana without the help of double cradle. I've played a lot of games with this deck with double hoof and this situation came up for ,e over and over again and it was very frustrating. I was usually just better off zenithing for a visionary in those situations and grinding them out.

if you control enough creatures to generate 9 mana without the help of Cradle, Hoof is still at least 10/10 haste and a 5/5 attacker next turn. How is that worse than durdling with Visionary against decks like RUG Delver, BUG and combo? It's immune to Lightning Bolt and Decay too

It doesn't matter what resources you use to get to regal zenith mana, because regal doesn't care whether your elves are tapped or not, you still get the cards you need. And zenithing for a regal is a GAME WINNING play against a ton of decks, and definitely a powerful line you can shape a gameplan around. The same really can't be said of craterhoof.

it's often a LOSING play once you battle against sweepers, lethal boardstates or combo. I would not underestimate that impact in the current meta and in that regards I trimmed the deck

When you have the mana to zenith for eight AND have enough guys to attack them for lethal afterward, you are probably in a pretty dominating position anyways, and zenithing for either creature is more than enough to put the game away.

Heritage Druid sucks, and it has always sucked. Especially now that we are playing glimpse as a plan C. Same with birchlore ranger. I played a birchlore at the invitational in jersey and used it zero times.

because you won't Tutor for Birchlore as an one-off. It changes a lot once you play 3-4 and see them as mana-Elves in combination with ANY other elf, which doesn't tap for mana usually like Quirion and Nettle (with the later Setting up T2 Glimpse combos with Birchlore). It's ability to accelerate dropping creatures for T2 Cradles is shared with Llanowars but the ability to ignore summoning sickness (T1 Nettle, T2 Birchlore ... if you NO or Flumpse combo, Nettle can now attack) while creating Black and White mana in demand for DRS and Sideboard options like Cabal Therapy and Thalia is unique

They are only really good when comboing with glimpse, and are usually your worst creature when you aren't. They are a great lightning rod for removal

isn't it a good thing to have more Virtual Heritages in the deck that catch a Lightning Bolt rather than follow-up symbiotes or Heritages?

though because most people are clueless and think she should be kill on sight. Fyndhorn effects are even better turn 1 plays because they set you up for turn 3 natural orders, which is incredibly important against combo.

Turn 3 is too slow on the draw in almost all cases I fear. Birchlore and the full set of Cradles are an attempt to push the deck and/or it's hate towards turn 2

With 7 creatures that untap other creatures, I always want a Fyndhorn of some kind available to me. I could see playing 3 but I don't know what would be better than the fourth one.

Zenith for Priest of Titania is too of a turn 2 play against combo decks to cut. You want to be a turn 3 deck if you can, and priest does a very good job of setting you up for a kill. It's definitely worth a slot.

Zenith for Priest turn 2 however requires a mana dork T1 and is still cold on the draw as mentioned above. You'll need Therapy/Thorn/Thalia /Teeg against combo turn 2, not Priest

Scavenging Ooze is a good card, but I don't think you need the gy removal utility in the open series meta game right now. There isn't much dredge around, almost no Reanimator, and DRS does a great job of handling those decks anyway. The main reason you would want him is for his big body, and I think Ezuri does a better job of being a huge man than ooze does. Especially since double cradle is a thing now.

DRS is not enough to keep Nimble Mongoose, reanimator, Tarmogoyf and Past in Flames in Check. Ooze can AND comes with a Body + Lifegain. How is double Cradle an argument for Ezuri, while you previously deny it being an argument for Hoofs 9 mana?

Just because I haven't been playing the deck in opens doesn't mean I'm not paying attention to the development of the deck. This deck is my baby and I'm constantly working with it. Also the condescension is pretty amusing. At least now I have 21 posts o the source. Hopefully that makes me slightly more legit :D

this isn't post-count-elitism or discrediting. I just wondered, how involved, active you were with that count. It was a question, not a reproach

P.S. <3 danyul

[danyul]

@Daniel
Though I disagree that your registered lists are pretty wayne with Elves as long as the pilot is good, I do have a slight problem with the idea that a previous successful player doesn't need to catch up on the meta, new printings or other development due to the plain fact that he WAS a vocal member of the Elves-crowd more than half a year ago.

I have no clue what his latest known state of art with Elves is since he's a member with 20 posts, so that would have been helpful to know. If you suddenly think Regal is a valid option for the meta, then why do you run 2 Hoofs? Because it's better in the current meta! That's all the other users care about too. That's why some run Birchlores over Llanowars, cut C.Rotations or alter the manabase. If we keep our eyes on the success of previous iterations and players we would all still play 16-lands-Emrakul. It's not that todays GROW-strategies in Vintage would exist without Stephen Menendian, but regardless of that, the archtype left Quirion Dryad behind without his initial approval


Edit: Is there a problem if the thread develops while you have, without a doubt, more important things to do?

I think GerryT is on this forum too and has like less than 50 posts. Post count means very little here (AND IRL TOO GUYZ). Perhaps you guys didn't recognize the name of Chrandersen, Lord of Leaves. That explains a bit. I gave him plenty of shout-outs in the primer. I thought he was a known dude.

I'm not saying we should just ignore past innovations. There are shades of grey to this. I'm just saying give the man the benefit of the doubt and assume that he knows what he is doing and has made the conscious decision to play X instead of Y. Clearly Chrandersen has caught up to the meta, as seen by his NO-Centric list. He has simply kept certain card choices that you do not necessarily agree with. If he was still running Mirror Entity then I could see an argument to be made for all the criticism. But sometimes I miss Regal Force and Priest. I can see a reason to keep them around, especially when he is thinking about the SCG Open meta, which often skews towards fair decks and grindy games. And nobody is asking for his approval to move forward with the deck. On the contrary, you all seem to be questioning whether or not you approve of lists that aren't copies of your 75.

Lemnear, I recall you mentioning that you have an exceptionally combo-heavy meta. And you have openly said that you are pushing Elves to be as fast as possible. That changes your build and entire philosophy towards the deck. Not everybody is approaching the deck in this manner. You don't seem to take this into account when looking at other people's lists.

And I'm not saying the thread shouldn't develop in my absence. Far from it. You guys discussing things is great and makes me feel less obligated to chime in all the time - not that I ever had anything much to say. I brought up the post-frequency only to point out that it is difficult to keep up with all the action in here. Thus, it is a little unreasonable for you guys to just tell somebody "go read the thread" or "why haven't you been keeping up with this thread" when, realistically, most people cannot do that.


Makes you old enough to drink...

I think I will give a shot at your list and see what I find. I am not a Fan of Priest with 4 Cradles tho. If you're going all out to try and get that mana, I can see how GSZ can help, but I just feel like personally, I would rather have a rotation there. Thing is I can see that you're using Preset to push Regal force as a Mana buff. But how do you deal when you do not have that large mana influx? Say you get your mana elves burnt out or GSZ is counted? What do you do then?

Getting dudes burned out and GSZ countered is a problem for any build of Elves. It's a little silly to question somebody's card choices by presenting them problems that every elf player must deal with regardless of their build.



Edit: -4 Symbiote? I really really really don't like that. Makes the deck seam a touch neutered.

What is this in reference to?

[Dice_Box]

Oh shit he did have Symbiotes and I missed them.

I think the question at hand is an important one. Yes the points I made are issues all Elf players have to deal with, but if you're pushing your build to stand on a two cards, asking what happens when those cards become non entities seams like a question worth asking.

Ok Edit:

What I like:
Ezri main.
A push at a "3rd option" of play

What I dislike
Cutting Birch totally
1 basic (I know I am in a minority here)
Cutting Hoof two.

What I think I will look at in my own build:
Adding Ezuri into my 75.
Maybe runing Force again for a bit and seeing what it does, if anything now.

What I do not think I will do:
Cut the Rangers. Pushing turn 2 is just so much simpler with them. Siding in Dual coloured cards is too. I like them too much. I have always liked them.

Chrandersen, while I understand the impact you have had on the deck in the past, and I can see what you are saying now, I do not know if your build is a direction I can see myself taking. At the same time I do understand how Priest would help as a "Tutorable" Cradle. But if you are going to run her, you need the Birthlores. Because dropping her into play off a draw turn 3 makes her near on worthless. At least with other elves like Rangers you can tap her for mana the turn she hits play.

Cards like Ezuri are good pulls, Force may indeed play well, maybe we have pulled too much at only NO and Hoof. I will test this out and see what I find, you may be onto something. But I am worried about the idea of cutting a Win Con for a draw card, the deck has 4 Ancestral Recall already and 7/8 fetches for Visionaries if you need them. I do not feel Force has a place in my 75. But thats just my personal view.

[Lemnear]

Lemnear, I recall you mentioning that you have an exceptionally combo-heavy meta. And you have openly said that you are pushing Elves to be as fast as possible. That changes your build and entire philosophy towards the deck. Not everybody is approaching the deck in this manner. You don't seem to take this into account when looking at other people's lists.

Daniel, there's no doubt that the circumstances in certain metas requires the Elves pilot to alter their Maindeck. I wouldn't even blame peeps for running Teeg and Thar over the Hoofs in a Combo-meta, but advocating for Priest in terms of combo is absurd. I quote:


Zenith for Priest of Titania is too of a turn 2 play against combo decks to cut

The same goes for Regal Force against Combo and RUG ... I rather cut them off from Ad Nauseam or roll over the Delver with a Hoof than drawing cards and rather have their life threatend than mine. So much for game 1.

Combo doesn't care for your additional Elves and Lands in hand post Regal Force or for Priest off GSZ. They care for Gaddock Teeg off GSZ and if you can Strip them from their life-based-engines or kill them after they durdle with Gitaxian Probe and Thoughtseize



Edit @ Ezuri: That guy eats more mana than Hoof! To play him and overrun are 8 mana.

Edit @ Regal Force: I don't know why this deck should need more draw effects between Glimpse, visionary, symbiote and 8 Tutors to assemble the BFF's

[Dice_Box]

Ezuri has Regen, thats what I like the most. The overrun is cool, but the idea of making Punishing Fire have to target him is nice. Also I can see him as a non dead topdeck. He is not cheap, but he is not dead in the water either.

[Lemnear]

Ezuri has Regen, thats what I like the most. The overrun is cool, but the idea of making Punishing Fire have to target him is nice. Also I can see him as a non dead topdeck. He is not cheap, but he is not dead in the water either.

You can play Joarga Warcaller too in that case and boost your doods out of the P.Fire-Grove-range. That option is even cheaper manawise and can't be handled by Karakas ran by Punishing-Miracles/-Maverick.

I'm still able to tackle the issue with speed

[Julian23]

The problem with Ezuri against Punishing Fire is that he/she only regenerates other Elves. So the best it can do is grant a Regeneration Shield for a single turn; might be enough sometimes but I doubt it.

[Lemnear]

The problem with Ezuri against Punishing Fire is that he/she only regenerates other Elves. So the best it can do is grant a Regeneration Shield for a single turn; might be enough sometimes but I doubt it.

Kudos, I missed that. Another point against Ezuri

Danke, Julian

[Dice_Box]

Yea, I see the point. Might go down the Warcaller rote, want to test that.

Edit:
Is it just me, or does it feel like the changes in Meta over the past few months make this a harder deck to pilot? I am not saying it is not strong, just the increase in burn and discard has made this a deck that can be a challenge against a larger part of the Meta than it use to be.


Warcaller isn't GSZ'able. Or, well, it is, but it doesn't do any tasty pumping action without being hardcast.
Arr shit...

[Zombie]

Warcaller isn't GSZ'able. Or, well, it is, but it doesn't do any tasty pumping action without being hardcast.

[Lemnear]

Warcaller wasn't considered as a GSZ target by me tbh just as a SB 2-off if your meta demands. I doubt there is a economic way to battle Forked Bot and Punishing Fire with Elves aside Ooze

@meta:
It's no surprise the the meta finally adapts to the DRS-menace and starts playing more and more sweepers.



A lil update to the Miracles-Matchup:
Enjoyed blowing out one opponent with Realm Razer ;)

[Dice_Box]

Razer is fun, I forget you mentioned it to me, I think back in the old thread. With two Lands decks locally I run it sometimes just for the fun of it. If he had more defence I would run him more, but he is still fun to troll with. Just a pity he dies to Punishing Fire.

[Lemnear]

Trolling peeps with wacky cards is part of my local madness (aka SB flex-slots). Everyone leaves with a laugh and a Story to tell how their 1600$ miracles deck with T1 Top, T2 Counterbalance got blown by Realm Razer ;)

[Kayradis]

Im away from the internets for a couple hours and the whole thread goes to shit.

Damn.

haha.

Played yesterday to a 1-2 record. I really really really really like 2 Thorn/1 Thalia in the board. Didn't play against RUG so didn't board in the Meekstone.

I believe that the 2 Hoofs/1 Hoof + 1 Regal is up to the player's preference. I understand that we all work towards fine tuning the deck and we all believe in a better world where everybody loves each other, rainbows and shit. But goddamn guys. I understand that we can all be sometime Thruns (the last troll....see the pun there?) but post count is somewhat irrelevant at this point. I believe that this thread is fuelled by good elves players that all look forward to achieving new levels of awesomeness with the deck.

@Chrandersen:
I'm slowly falling towards bringing back force. I've played for a couple weeks with variations of 2 Hoofs, 1 Hoof - 1 Ruric Thar, 1 Hoof - 1 Ezuri, 1 Hoof - 1 Force, ect... and I'm well aware that the deck main goal is to Hoof stomp people as early as possible. Unfortunately, the worldwide meta is adapting to our green shenanigans and a lategame draw option (AKA R.Force) is getting more and more attractive. My meta here knows me for insane glimpse chain and stupid DRS Untap interactions. Im expecting a LOT of removal in the majority of the fair decks (yesterday a guy boarded in 6-8 mass removal [pyroclasm and friends] against me). That's a lot of fucking hate. Regal is resilient to bolt, make you gain stupid amount of life if Sworded, is a m*therf*cking wall against anything that is scary in legacy (Batterskull anyone?) and once the EtB trigger resolves, he's done all that we expected of him.


I was running 18 lands yesterday. I never been that flooded with the deck in my entire life.
Going back to 17 and bringing back 1 Multani's Acolyte. I love that card as a 1 of so much and now I miss it. Might even go to 2 of it.

Ill take notes and let you know.
60 people tournament tomorrow.
Gonna hoof people with a SWEEEEEEEEEEEEET MTGTHESOURCE.COM playmat!

-Gabe

[Lemnear]

Gabe, Regal Force doesn't solve the problem of getting your doods burned and therefore only drawing 2-3 cards. I'll rather push into the red-zone with a 8/8 haste or run Progenitus as NO-target if burn goes rampant in my meta

[Kayradis]

The thing is, our main way to put Hoofy-Doofy into play is NO.
The problem is, all our guys are dead and if that happens, our mana-producing engine OR the sac cost for NO can't be done.

So hardcast is out of the equation.

Im still toying with ideas.
Im spending too much time working in a military think-tank.
I'm debating getting a work group on that.
Dunno if its gonna get approved.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Warcaller isn't GSZ'able. Or, well, it is, but it doesn't do any tasty pumping action without being hardcast.

Wirewood Symbiote. :D

[Lemnear]

Wirewood Symbiote. :D

Tbh, the same can be said for Ezuri, but I'm sure we set sail to cute-pony-island somewhere

[Kayradis]

One day, in the wonderful world of MtG being owned by Hasbro, the My Little Pony franchise will do a cross over.

My expectations? Within 5 years we will have a My Little Pony block.
Just sayin.

[Lemnear]

One day, in the wonderful world of MtG being owned by Hasbro, the My Little Pony franchise will do a cross over.

My expectations? Within 5 years we will have a My Little Pony block.
Just sayin.

http://d37nnnqwv9amwr.cloudfront.net/photos/images/newsfeed/000/221/478/102145%20-%20applejack%20crossover%20fluttershy%20magic_the_gathering%20mtg%20pinkie_pie%20ponies_mtg%20rainbow_dash%20rarity%20twilight_sparkle.jpg

Right over my cold, dead body...




Ok, lets cut that crap...

[Kayradis]

That just went way too far...

Back to our little green dorks.

[Koby]

After thinking about the list I played last weekend, and the discussion over the last few pages I'm going to make changes to my list:

-1 Land to 17 lands (Agree with Kayradis and have also argued less lands is better)
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
+1 Regal Force
+1 Elvish Archdruid (as team pump to help the man plan, and as a psuedo Cradle elf)

As for the argument that Hoof is better than Regal Force when Hoof is not lethal - it has no difference. In one aspect you're just attacking them down to low single digits. In the other, you're reloading your hand with tons of gas. Which would you rather have against a "land, Wrath you" plan which is being argued?

[nudon]

After thinking about the list I played last weekend, and the discussion over the last few pages I'm going to make changes to my list:

-1 Land to 17 lands (Agree with Kayradis and have also argued less lands is better)
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
+1 Regal Force
+1 Elvish Archdruid (as team pump to help the man plan, and as a psuedo Cradle elf)

As for the argument that Hoof is better than Regal Force when Hoof is not lethal - it has no difference. In one aspect you're just attacking them down to low single digits. In the other, you're reloading your hand with tons of gas. Which would you rather have against a "land, Wrath you" plan which is being argued?

Koby, I was curious about how the slight differences in your deck performed at the event. Did the single llanowar pull its weight or do you think you'll eventually try to increase the birchlore count? Also, did you ever run into problems with wasteland by having only 1 bayou? I was thinking about dropping the second one to increase the number of fetches. As for the number of lands in the deck, I don't think it matters too much since it seems all of us are having success with 17-19 lands. Play-style and mulligan decisions factor more into this than probably given credit for.

[Koby]

Koby, I was curious about how the slight differences in your deck performed at the event. Did the single llanowar pull its weight or do you think you'll eventually try to increase the birchlore count? Also, did you ever run into problems with wasteland by having only 1 bayou? I was thinking about dropping the second one to increase the number of fetches. As for the number of lands in the deck, I don't think it matters too much since it seems all of us are having success with 17-19 lands. Play-style and mulligan decisions factor more into this than probably given credit for.

The singular Llanowar performed well the few times I opened with it. The Birchlore Rangers performed fine the few times I needed to use them to produce mana. I only ran 2 Birchlores and never felt like I wanted more while playing.

On the mana base:
I had a few unfortunate mulligans with no usable lands throughout the tournament. That's unavoidable with the configuration we're running (and I calculated a while back). It should occur about 15-20% of the time. Beyond that, I liked the 2 Forest 1 Bayou 1 Savannah configuration in practice. If I felt that in a given matchup I would be Wastelanded, I would fetch basic Forest. Bayou only really matters when you need to start using DRS every turn. It does slow you down a bit when you have multiple DRS out and draining life, but that seems to be a "first world problem" type where the game is stalled against a deck without Wastelands and your only recourse is to drain. Actively using Quirion Ranger/DRS on your turn then untap and reset for their turn seems to work just fine.

I definitely felt flooded most of the day with 18 lands. I also don't like having such a big reliance on 1 Dryad Arbor to get a turn 1 mana dork out. I may bump up Llanowar Elves to two in the deck, likely flexing Crop Rotation out of the deck again.

Like I've stated many times before, the core is solid and we're just tuning the last 5 or so slots for taste/metagame consideration. I certainly don't fault anyone for having good reasons for running more land, less Craterhoofs, more Birchlores, or extra utility elves/Regal Force.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

@Lord_of_Rivendell - You aren't going to like this, but if Miracles is a huge meta presence for you, you might wanna move into Jund or BUG Control. If you just wanna beat it the times you see it once in awhile, then okay. We can talk about that. But if you will have to face it regularly and need a plan to beat it on a consistent basis, then you actually just want a whole new deck.

You're right . . . I don't like it. The truth sometimes hurts. But, with a sense of tenacity in the air, I like playing elves. And I like our deck. So, I trying to think of solutions, even if they are modest. I'm wondering if buying ourselves a little more time is a useful edge on Miracles. Specifically, I'm thinking of adding 3 Winter Orb to the sideboard. I've always been a big fan of the elf lock with Winter Orb and Mishra's Helix, but think the Helix is just too slow here. But a turn 2 or 3 WOrb will give us a few extra turns to go off, or so it seems.

[Dice_Box]

Root Maze can help that lock if you are not looking to overload on Fetches. Sometimes, if you must, moving back to a Mono green build might work out in your favor.

[danyul]

You're right . . . I don't like it. The truth sometimes hurts. But, with a sense of tenacity in the air, I like playing elves. And I like our deck. So, I trying to think of solutions, even if they are modest. I'm wondering if buying ourselves a little more time is a useful edge on Miracles. Specifically, I'm thinking of adding 3 Winter Orb to the sideboard. I've always been a big fan of the elf lock with Winter Orb and Mishra's Helix, but think the Helix is just too slow here. But a turn 2 or 3 WOrb will give us a few extra turns to go off, or so it seems.

I have also considered Winter Orb in the SB for this matchup. It helps against a few other matchups as well. I have yet to test it though. Let us know how it goes.

Oh, and I also picked up a few copies of Gloom with the intention of testing them against Miracles. You could give that a spin too.

[Kayradis]

Alright.
Tournament is firing in 4 hours approx.
Last minute(hours?) change

-17 Lands
-1 Hoof/1 Regal/1 Ruric Thar MB as NO Targets
-Running 4 Visionaries and 1 Multani's Acolyte.
Let's crush.

[Dice_Box]

Thats an odd lineup. I am interested to see how it goes. I wonder if Acolyte will hold her weight.

[Kayradis]

Im taking a shot in the dark with that.

[andrebonotto]

Alright.
Tournament is firing in 4 hours approx.
Last minute(hours?) change

-17 Lands
-1 Hoof/1 Regal/1 Ruric Thar MB as NO Targets
-Running 4 Visionaries and 1 Multani's Acolyte.
Let's crush.

Good luck!

And let us know how it went.

[Tombstalker]

Greetings elven nation do you guys happen to have any secret tech vs punishing fires combo that might splash into a RUG shell by chance? Looking for creative ideas.

[LeoCop 90]

Men , i don't really understand playing with 17 lands , if these 17 include 4 cradle and 1 dryad arbor. you are left with 12 playable mana sources for turn one, and this would make me feel like i'm playing belcher. Belcher has usually eleven win conditions and automulls if it doesn't find one in the opening hand.... so, given that with elves i am not playing a straight all-in combo deck, why should i have about the same mulling percentage of a belcher player? I assume that you can also keep a hand with dryad arbor as your only land but this is very risky and slow.... or maybe it's just me that don't have the balls of playing with so few mana sources.

[LeoCop 90]

Creative ideas against Punishing Fire ? What about Steely Resolve or Absolute Law ?

[Koby]

Rest in Peace or Absolute Law could both work. That gives Jund tension regarding whether to kill your creatures or kill RIP with Abrupt Decay.

[Tombstalker]

Those are all good choices actually, RiP splash damages goyf but the others might be doable. I'm currently using scavenging ooze main and surgicals from SB but kinda looking for something nastier.

[Kayradis]

Top 4.
More to come.

[Tombstalker]

Just got a great suggestion in wild defiance. Puts all creatures out of burn range and let's forked bolt= double giant growth on 2 creatures! (For my colors anyway). Well just thought I'd share since I believe elves have problems with PF as well.. amirite? Sorry to hijack good look at the tourney kaydadis.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Punishing Fire is too slow and inefficient to keep up with our output of elves. They have to pay three to kill our dude that likely cost one. It's mainly a problem when it follows a sweeper or Chalice @1. And in those situations, it was actually the sweeper/Chalice that was the problem.

If you can fire off a single Glimpse then you should undo all the work P. Fire does turn after turn. I don't think it's a problem worth extra sb space. Ooze and Thorn are both pretty good at fighting it, which you probably have in your sb currently.

[Kayradis]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26682-Ruric-Cratherhoof-and-Friends(3rd-Place-Maritimes-Magic-Tour-w-ELVES!)&p=749511#post749511

Report from my Top 4 finish w/ decklist.

Cheers.

-Gabe

[trevaftw]

Reid Duke is about to play on camera with Elves (vs RUG Delver)

for fututre reference: Round 3 of the legacy open at Philadelphia 2013

EDIT:

Game 1 - RUG delver starts with an untapped volc, Reid Duke goes and attempts to fetch and gets stifled. He has no more lands for the next 3 turns and scoops. Cedric said he was on 20 lands with 4 cradles and two dryad arbor as well

[Kayradis]

He's running 20 laaaaaands...

[LeoCop 90]

So yes, this legitimates my feeling that playing 17 lands is just plain wrong. ( i don't know how much lands he is running, it's just a general statement).

[Zombie]

Call the police! I see riffling! My eyes can't take it!

[igri_is_a_bk]

Men , i don't really understand playing with 17 lands , if these 17 include 4 cradle and 1 dryad arbor. you are left with 12 playable mana sources for turn one, and this would make me feel like i'm playing belcher. Belcher has usually eleven win conditions and automulls if it doesn't find one in the opening hand.... so, given that with elves i am not playing a straight all-in combo deck, why should i have about the same mulling percentage of a belcher player? I assume that you can also keep a hand with dryad arbor as your only land but this is very risky and slow.... or maybe it's just me that don't have the balls of playing with so few mana sources.

Completely agree. I always want 14 starting sources, but that's 20 lands because I don't want to drop the second Arbor. I'm curious what Reid's mana looks like.

[LeoCop 90]

As long as RUG's players keep using force of will on things like quirion ranger all is fine... if he had forced the zenith instead the game would have been different. (2nd game)

The third game unfortunately natural order for behemoth with only visionary on board was not enough to race two flipped delvers. A ruric thar there would have been boss because of reach.

[danyul]

I agree Punishing Fire is too slow to shut us down. They are paying 3 mana to stop something we paid 1 mana for. However, when paired with other forms of disruption, P.Fire can be a pain in the butt if they have put us into topdeck mode. Bring in Scavenging Ooze for that card. And decks that run it are typically heavy in other kinds of removal so bringing in Progenitus is something to consider. You can usually just overwhelm the board though and push through their removal.

Also, Reid lost that last game to Rough/Tumble more than any other card IMO. But the whole RUG disruption package was on display. That's exactly why I find that matchup to be super unfun.

Also also, please don't play Wild Defiance. It's too narrow, isn't an elf, and costs 3 mana. You will get more value by assembling Visionary+Symbiote aka best friend team and getting a rebuy or two, forcing them to burn your symbiote first.

[Dice_Box]

That whole post read to me as an advertisement for running Library.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Lemnear]

Completely agree. I always want 14 starting sources, but that's 20 lands because I don't want to drop the second Arbor. I'm curious what Reid's mana looks like.

I doubt there's much surprise ... 4 Cradles, 2 Arbor, 9 or 10 fetches, 4 or 5 Duals/Forests ... aside the second Arbor which I don't like, I expect pretty much the manabase I run for months

[igri_is_a_bk]

I was just fishing for the fact he's likely playing two Arbors.

[resum]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58920
0 birchlore
0 ooze main

[Lemnear]

Hahaha, he even runs the 4 Fetchland split xD

Sideboard is crap though ... Pridemage instead of Sliver, only 3 Therapies, MBT ... o_O

[danyul]

Those matches were great. Reid played well and took it down. Can't fault his list too much since the guy won. I like the stability he is going for though. Seems smart for a longer tourney.

[theross]

It's worth noting that Reid's list is straight from Andrew Cuneo, who has streamed with Elves for months. My own list from Atlanta was heavily based on Andrew's, and I would place no opinion on the current iteration of the deck above his.

[Blastoderm]

Not sure I like the 2 arbor. But I think after mulliganning so much today at a local tourney with 17lands+arbor, ill go up to 19.

I had a question though. When does he side in the 3 therapy 4 thoughtseize? Does he really side in all 7?

[danyul]

He may not bring in all 7 at once, although sometimes you really wanna get em and might do that, but I can see a reason to sometimes bring in one and not the other. For example, in his match against Manaless Dredge, Thoughtseize was a good call because it definitely hits *something* and he doesn't have to try to jedi mind trick his way into deciding what crazy card his opponent might be holding. But later on, against Show and Tell (a deck Reid knows well because he has piloted it before), Cabal Therapy offered him resilience against Countermagic and the ability to hit cards that the opponent's play was signaling might be in his hand. Whereas against a weird deck like Dredge, the opponent's play doesn't really tell you enough to make an educated Therapy call.

Different tools have different uses. He may just want the flexibility of using one over the other, depending on the situation.

[Chrandersen]

Hahaha, he even runs the 4 Fetchland split xD

Sideboard is crap though ... Pridemage instead of Sliver, only 3 Therapies, MBT ... o_O

Dude... Have you ever thought to yourself, "hey maybe I'm wrong."? Andrew Cuneo is a very smart person and I'm sure he has very good reasons for the choises in the deck he's been playing for the last 6 months. I don't agree with his slots either, but I'm not gonna just brush it off as crap and ignore it. I respect his opinion and I'm going to ask myself why he chose the slots he did and evaluate those decisions before coming to my own conclusions. Have some friggin hubris man... You might just learn something.

Being "right" on the Internet isn't as important as learning something and improving yourself as a player and deck builder.

[Lemnear]

I just don't see the need for a Sideboard with 7 discard-spells and 2 MBT ... too much of the same. I like splitting the hate and it's not that OnmiTell, Storm and Reanimator can't recover from a discard spell or dodge MBT. All 3 have more troubles with resistors. The cut of a Decay is also devastating against Chalice and Counterbalance

Obviously I was NOT wrong in my way building the manabase

[Kayradis]

Reid is a good player.
I'm not 100% behind his list, but he brought some ideas I was debating to fruition yesterday.
I was thinking about swapping the Cabal Therapies for Thoughtseizes for a while now. I understand that Cabal is amazing when you know exactly what to name, but tearing his hand without a chance of missing is worth the 2 lifes.

His match against Manaless Dredge was quite funny to be honest.

Isn't he part of the source too? That would be sweet to have him explain his choices in regards to MD build/SB slots choices.

-Gabe

[igri_is_a_bk]

Obviously I was NOT wrong in my way building the manabase

Hang on. You mean the mana base that LSV and Matt Nass created and we all copied and pasted? You didn't build this mana base.

Nass report from GP Denver 9 months ago (http://www.channelfireball.com/home/getting-nassty-elves-in-denver-top-8/)

I can understand why Reid put more discard in his sb. Haven't you ever played a sb game and drawn a combination of discard and Thorns that effectively screwed yourself up? Or held a Thorn and not got a second turn on the draw? Or played a Teeg then topdecked the NO? I'm not dismissing any idea from his sideboard except the MBT. I really think the odds of that card doing anything are so marginal that I wouldn't try it again.

[Lemnear]

Just to keep this civil: My point was all about running a single forest, 10 Fetches (split over 4 types for pithing needle) and 14 initial manasources among them aka 18 non-creature lands. Moreover, Reid proved that Thar and Regal Force are completely unnecessary in a diverse meta.

Edit:
Having Teeg out and drawing NO never happend to me, because I side out the NO package against pure combo and for the scenario of drawing Thorn + Thorn, lemme ensure you that this is the reason I have cutted the Thorns for Thalia recently, instead of running the split (aside the marginal Chance to draw 2 out of 2 Thorns without being able to make up for a 3-mana-Thorn

[PendelSteven]

It's worth noting that Reid's list is straight from Andrew Cuneo, who has streamed with Elves for months. My own list from Atlanta was heavily based on Andrew's, and I would place no opinion on the current iteration of the deck above his.

Also known as Gainsay. He has tested this with Tom Martell on his twitch-channel and it turns out this list does make sense.

Oh yeah. That was on 4 April, since then apparently he swapped out a Scavenging Ooze for an extra mana Elf. Functionally it is the same list though (albeit different fetches, maybe Fyndhorn vs Llanowar-configuration, but who cares about that?)

Cuneo's sideboard idea is that Teeg, Thorn, Thalia (and Thar, presumably) don't work with the fact that an average Elves-list runs about 20 noncreature spells in the 75 (if you didn't notice). Especially if you're gonna put more Thoughtseizes in it makes a lot of sense to cut Teeg!

Say what you will, but there's a fair chance your 75 works against itself if you analyse it closely. That's probably one of these things that would give you 1 % more chance of winning (in this case not losing), so worth looking at, in my opinion.

[theross]

On the use of 7 discard spells in the sideboard:

My understanding is that Cuneo uses all 7 against opposing combo decks, and Thoughtseize alone comes in against decks that use a varied answer suite, the primary example being Esper. They can have EE, Verdict, or Perish for wraths, Jitte, and counterspells for a key Glimpse or NO, so having the card that will take whichever one they draw is important. Additionally, in any matchup that is attrition-based, missing with Therapy is too damaging while the combo decks have relatively few cards that hold their deck together, so ensuring you take all copies of such cards is valuable.

[Zombie]

I'm not a fan of the "Leyline, eat spaghetti / be eaten by ants" scenario.

If going for the full 7 discard suite, 4 Seize 3 Therapy sounds sane. Nothing like hitting Therapy on prior information.

[PendelSteven]

On the use of 7 discard spells in the sideboard:

My understanding is that Cuneo uses Thoughtseize alone comes in against decks that use a varied answer suite, the primary example being Esper.

Against Esper Stoneblade he sideboarded like this:
+4 Thoughtseize
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Craterhoof
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Fyndhorn Elves (/ Scavenging Ooze actually on the video while it was in the maindeck)

[Absolutflipz]

I kind of like the additional 4x Thoughtseize over Thalia/Thorns. Thoughtseize is a lot better than Thalia/Thorns against fair decks like Stoneblade/Shardless BUG, as well as Miracles, and doesn't disrupt your ability to Glimpse/NO once you've cleared the way.

The only 2 cards I don't like are the 2x Mindbreak Trap, which I'd rather have as Chokes...but he obviously wants to really go after the Storm/combo matchup.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58920
0 birchlore
0 ooze main

Stooge question: Is there a place to see these games or at least detailed reports of the games?

[danyul]

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/458303326

Top 8 starts around the 13 hour mark.

[Dice_Box]

Stooge question: Is there a place to see these games or at least detailed reports of the games?http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/458303326
...Nij'd...

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/458303326

Top 8 starts around the 13 hour mark.
Many thanks.


Edit: Are there other good links to our deck being piloted especially well?

[Kayradis]

Are there other good links to our deck being piloted especially well?

Matt Nass article on Channel Fireball is a good read if you haven't look at it yet.
There's also Chrandersen article on SCG, even if its a bit out of date, that might help you get a better understanding of all the interactions of the combo. Other than those, I firmly believe that most of this relating to Elves! is within this thread. It's quite a read!

[Kayradis]

So, still nothing new for the deck in regards to spoilers.
Wasn't expecting much either.

[Dice_Box]

There are no elves in Greek Mythology. So the chances of getting new in tribe creatures are exactly zero. As for other cards, elves is such a tight deck to start with that something would have to be really really good to make an impact. I think the bar is just too high for a set that has no elves to reach.

[Kayradis]

Well, if we keep on the following trend, we could face another Shadowmoor/Eventide block next block (New[Zendikar Block]/Revisit[Mirrodin]/New[Innistrad]/Revisit[Return To Ravnica]/New[Theros]/Revisit[?])

[Dice_Box]

Oh good, please be an Onslaught revisit...

[danyul]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26901_SCG-Legacy-Open-Philadelphia-1st-Elves.html

Reid Duke has a tournament report up from his win last weekend.

It's on the premium side of the site. No premium tears allowed!

[Zombie]

*sheds a premium tear*

[andrebonotto]

[2] *sheds another premium tear*

[danyul]

Reid Duke, the newly appointed Guardian of Gaea, has no sympathy for your premium tears!

The article, which I won't summarize here, has some very good observations in it but isn't a primer or guide or whatnot. It won't reshape the way you play Elves, so don't feel like you are superduper missing out on anything. But it was a good little Reid (LOL GET IT IM SO SMAHT) and the revised list offered by the Guardian of Gaea has some interesting choices in it.

[Dice_Box]

Ok. Was testing today. Just played out a few hours. I am now firmly in the belief that we need to run choke. RUG just dies to it. They have no lands they can untap. Its also such a common play that I just can not see a reason not to have at least two. It has a splash effect against so many other decks that I just love it.

[lordofthepit]

Reid Duke, the newly appointed Guardian of Gaea, has no sympathy for your premium tears!

A fitting choice for the new elvish champion.

Pretty sure he wouldn't take "Duke of Deepwood" unless he were getting into porn.

[Chrandersen]

Ok. Was testing today. Just played out a few hours. I am now firmly in the belief that we need to run choke. RUG just dies to it. They have no lands they can untap. Its also such a common play that I just can not see a reason not to have at least two. It has a splash effect against so many other decks that I just love it.

MEEK

STONE

I've Never lost a game where I resolved one against rug delver. NEVER.

You don't need splash damage against anything else playing islands.

[trevaftw]

Anyone else thinking about trying Swan Song in their sideboard?


MEEK

STONE

I've Never lost a game where I resolved one against rug delver. NEVER.

You don't need splash damage against anything else playing islands.

You don't think Choke worth using against stuff like High Tide, ANT/TES, Counterbalance, SNT, etc?

[Chrandersen]

Choke is too slow for any combo matchups except high tide, and they have candles and turnabout to make it not matter when they go off. Countertop doesn't really exist on the open series, and it's such a bad matchup that I just ignore it and take my loss in the extremely rare circumstance that I get paired to it. If its prevalent in your area, then this might not be the deck for you. Also, choke isn't even that good against rug. Sticking it is really hard to do, and they can just daze things to make more mana.

[HoneyT]

Anyone else thinking about trying Swan Song in their sideboard?



You don't think Choke worth using against stuff like High Tide, ANT/TES, Counterbalance, SNT, etc?

Counterbalance. That's it. You'd rather have a threat against High Tide. They're not beating discard spells and we're a faster combo deck. ANT/TES don't play enough Islands to make it worth it. Again, discard and a clock are what we're after. Choke does nothing. Sneak and Show needs one Island to go off (not even if they're Sneak Attacking). Between Petals and Sol lands, you're not going to stop them from playing one Island and killing you. Again, you'd rather have any card that does something.

Chris is right, if you're really gunning to beat RUG, play Meekstone. They can't realistically beat that card. Miracles/CB is such a bad matchup anyway, I wouldn't worry about 2 Chokes that are likely to get countered anyway.

[Zombie]

High Tide is pretty much free, esp. postboard. There's just way too much stuff for them to deal with. Every second nonland card murders them.

[bruizar]

Short, concrete question:

I have a tournament tomorrow but I only have 3 Gaea's Cradles 3 Quirion Rangers and 3 Natural Orders and no Mindbreak Traps. Otherwise I have an identical list to Reid Duke's. How would you fill up the slots?

Missing:
1 sideboard natural order
2 sideboard mindbreak traps
1 maindeck cradle
1 maindeck quirion ranger

[HoneyT]

Short, concrete question:

I have a tournament tomorrow but I only have 3 Gaea's Cradles 3 Quirion Rangers and 3 Natural Orders and no Mindbreak Traps. Otherwise I have an identical list to Reid Duke's. How would you fill up the slots?

Missing:
1 sideboard natural order
2 sideboard mindbreak traps
1 maindeck cradle
1 maindeck quirion ranger

I'd probably play a Birchlore Ranger and a Crop Rotation in the main. The sideboard should be tuned to your meta. Blind I would say 2 Thorn of Amethyst and something for the fair matchups in place of NO. Personally I'm a fan of Jitte.

[Kayradis]

Don't run MB Traps.

Fill the slots with Birchlore Rangers

[Lemnear]

Don't run MB Traps.

Fill the slots with Birchlore Rangers

Geeeez ... Telling peeps about dropping MBT is like talking against a wall ...

If he's running Reid's list, he already has 3 Llanowars in there ... I doubt he want's 3 Birchlores in addition to them while having 4 DRS + 20 Lands ... but that's another old Story like MBT

[Kayradis]

@bruizar:

As an example, here's my SB for an unknown meta.

3 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Harmonic Sliver
1 x Gaddock Teeg
1 x Progenitus
4 x Cabal Therapy (Can be swapped for Thoughtseize)
1 x Qasali Pridemage
2 x Thorn Of Amethysm
1 x Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
1 x Meekstone

Cheers

[MD.Ghost]

@Kayradis: Sideboard looks good so far, but Sliver and Pridemage? Maybe one more Meekstone/Ooze?

@Spoiler: .... - So we get nothing

Some weird Theros Options:

Xenagos, the Reveler: Not better than Garruk Wildspeaker (which has a good synergie but loses to Natural Order)

Polukranos, World Eater: Solid Body and castable, but only good against other tribes/mirror IF you can use the ability, which means untap with that guy / also can´t shot down a 4/5 gofy (unless you have enough mana to win via Zenith or Hardcast Hoof)

Nemesis of Mortals: Solid Body, and easy to cast if we fight against removal/sweeper heavy decks and can get a 10/10 without evasion (...) Normally NO into Progenitus is the weapon of choice (if you not play against RUG), the Hydra God is harder to setup but you gain a better creature

Arbor Colossus: Yeah, really weird idea, but 6/6 with reach for 5 Mana is a solid creature

Each Monster are harmed from Submerge and white exile spells, but that is a general problem besides Progenitus (or Thrun) I think we have to wait for the next set/commander release...
Still searching for an option besides the 4th Natural Order and Progenitus.

[Dice_Box]

Prophet of Kruphix looks totally unnessacry but cool. The idea of combing off in someone else's turn in response to them declaring an attack... Yea so many better options, but trolling is fun.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

Edit:
Creatures only get Flash... Dam now trolling is not even an option.

[Dice_Box]

Ok guys, need some input. This is my list right now:

Creatures
4x Birchlore Rangers
2x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
3x Quirion Ranger
4x Wirewood Symbiote

Sorcery
4x Glimpse of Nature
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order

Land
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Taiga
4x Gaea's Cradle
8x Fetches
2x Forest

Sideboard
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Progenitus
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Umezawa's Jitte

What I want to do is put Shaman maindeck again and put 3 Meekstone in the side. My thoughts was cutting Jitte, an Ooze and the place made by moving Shaman. But I would like to know what others think. Also I have no idea what to cut from the main to make space. So I open to the floor for ideas.

Thanks.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[bruizar]

Thanks I will slightly adjust my sideboard plan. I will be facing at least 2 good players who are on mono red (goblins and painter). Any suggestions for hate?

[igri_is_a_bk]

It's been said a dozen times that you need more than eight fetches. There's no opinion behind that, just hard numbers.

Why are you ignoring Reid's list like it's not better than the Birchlore-lists you guys have been trying to support?

[Dice_Box]

Racing goblins is not hard. They do not often have a lot of burn until after they side. Once they side I would go down the "Hold your cards and don't overextend" route. If they are running with the white splash you might see a Cannonest. Jitte works in this situation as well as Motarpod and art hate. Decay is MVP tho. Lastly, kill Vials as fast as you can. You really hurt goblins when you do. Think of it as killing 3 or more land at once. It really is that important to the goblins plan.

Against Painter, Art hate and decay. Mono red Painter can be very fast, but the sad truth is that when playing Painter, you have to draw your stone naturally. There is no tutor for it. So kill it when it hits the table. If Painter is dropped early Kill it too. Because once everything is blue they can interact, until that point they have nothing.

First turn Moon is a killer. Fetch your basics first always. But know unless they have that first turn moon or second turn kill your likely going to be ok. Elves is not a deck I like to see when playing Painter. I will personally try and stick a moon then Painter on blue in that order. Decay kills both.

Also last point. Remember to float mana when moon hits, the Decay it. A pain in the ass that is.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Dice_Box]

It's been said a dozen times that you need more than eight fetches. There's no opinion behind that, just hard numbers.

Why are you ignoring Reid's list like it's not better than the Birchlore-lists you guys have been trying to support?personally. I think the "You must have more that 8 fetches" is bull. I do just fine without the 9th. As for Reid's list. Please post out to me where that's the new gold standard. Because right now I have not seen a lot of talk on it and what talk I have seen mostly was on Regal Force. I like my Birchlores and have not seen a good reason to change. Yes a build did well without them but that not to say that we should suddenly take up that one build based on one win.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

Edit. Can't quote and edit and stuff easily on my phone. That's the reason for the double post.

[bruizar]

Thanks,

Right now my sideboard is:

3 abrupt decay
3 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
1 thorn
1 teeg
1 jitte
1 scavenging ooze
1 meekstone
1 Qasali pridemage

How important is Progenitus? I could play it but would need to remove 1 seize / therapy or something from the sideboard

[igri_is_a_bk]

Fetches and the odds of seeing at least one in your opening seven.

8 = 65.4%
9 = 70.0%
10 = 74.1%

I would not say ~10% is bull. But seriously, do you think LSV, Matt Nass, and Reid Duke were wrong? That's kinda funny to me. They're genuinely at the top of the American player pool.

[Dice_Box]

What I like most when I have a fetch is a fetch target. Also I have the option of eating everyone's else's fetches. In a meta that has 2 38 land decks, 3 SnT decks, 2 12 post decks and almost everything else is armed with Wastelands, I am ok on 8. I am no fool. I understand the numbers but I am not running down to the SCG torny and I am not playing on a US stage. I am playing at my card shop. So I am not tweaking my deck against unknown quantities. That is why I asked for ideas while also placing my own thoughts down.

As for talking about Birchlore Rangers, I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this because my views have yet to change. I have admitted I was wrong in the past, I am sure I will have to do it again, but right now I see no reason to drop past 3 of the card. It's useful and the off mana it offers just helps. I can Morph it to get past a local Pox players Plagues and I can use it to speed up my deck. I am happy to hear what everyone has to say but right now I hold that card in fairly high regard.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[trevaftw]

As for talking about Birchlore Rangers, I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this because my views have yet to change. I have admitted I was wrong in the past, I am sure I will have to do it again, but right now I see no reason to drop past 3 of the card. It's useful and the off mana it offers just helps. I can Morph it to get past a local Pox players Plagues and I can use it to speed up my deck. I am happy to hear what everyone has to say but right now I hold that card in fairly high regard.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

After Reid's win with 0 Birchlore I am going to go back and try some mana dorks in their place for a few weeks and see how how it feels.

[trevaftw]

Elves on camera right now
round 4 of the 2013 legacy open in atlanta.

aaaaand he has 4 basics and a bayou in play at the moment

EDIT: He just won game one versus Young Tokens.

[Julian23]

I ran into too much issues with only 8 Fetchlands, especially when going second. The easiest solution was going to 10 Fetchlands and I feel fine now. Every now and then my DRS goes to bed hungry, but at least that was the most I can do. Also, it's not like you're going to fetch more than 4 times in a match anyways.

[yuMi-]

BAD elves player on camera.

[Zombie]

Quirion untap DRS, replay land, GSZ for Visionary is too hard, it seems : /

[yuMi-]

Missed Neetle Sentinel untap trigger.

Did not return Fauna Shaman with Wirewood Symbiote.

UNTAPED Neetle Sentinel at untap step.

With bad lines of play all long the match.

he is just bad and bad.

[Zombie]

...Did he just pass without the a lethal swing / Bonfire effect?

[danyul]

@Goblins

I board in all copies of Decay and sometimes the 4th Natural Order. I hold Decay for the Goblin Sharpshooter and pray that they aren't smart enough to hold the Sharpshooter in hand until it can be hasty via Warchief. Otherwise I feel that the matchup is very much in our favor. As long as you don't let them get Sharpshooter active, you can typically assemble a lethal Hoof before they can overwhelm you. Also, be careful about the very first turn. If they lead with Lackey, things can be tricky. I will be more than happy to trade my 1 drop for their Lackey, or I'll just LUL as I drop a Nettle Sentinel/DRS and make them cry.

Lackey and Sharpshooter. That's all you need to be paranoid about.

@Painter

I tested this matchup a little bit after its recent strong finishes. Only for like an hour or something. But I found that I need to dodge the early Blood Moon and the naturally drawn Painter+Stone combo. If they don't have those godhands, then they take a bit too much time to assemble their combo and our fundamental turn happens a turn before theirs. I also have 1 maindeck Viridian Shaman which was useful in slowing them down. You do autolose to a turn 1 Blood Moon though.

@Fetchlands

I run 8 but am looking to go up to 9, if not 10. The biggest issue here is that I'm a spoiled brat and play fully foiled and finding two more foil fetches is a pain in my ass. But I fully understand the grok the merits of playing 8+ fetches. Also, going past 8 fetches for me would involve cutting my 2nd basic Forest or my Savannah or the 2nd Dryad Arbor. None of those seem like exciting cuts at the moment so I'm a bit indecisive right now on where I want to go IRT to the 9th fetch. Also, there have been *plenty* of times when I play a DRS and just have to pray that my opponent has a couple fetches for me to eat. That never feels good.

@Birchlore+Reid Duke, The Guardian of Gaea

I tested 3 of these in my last big tourney (100 players). They were nice to have and definitely allowed me to do some stupid stuff earlier than I normally could. But I never actually felt they helped me win a game I wouldn't otherwise have already been able to win. What I mean by that it is they felt very Win-More. After Reid's finish I've been back to testing 2 Llanowar, 1 Birchlore. I really forgot how much I missed going Forest, Llanowar, go. I think I like it more than leading with Deathrite. The stability of always having a Turn 1 Manadork is just a timeless piece of tech.

Reid's deck was built to be more resilient than explosive. You can tell by the Llanowar count, the high land count, and the no-nonsense list full of 4-ofs. For the larger SCG meta, I think this is the correct way to build the deck. I think the deck designer, Mister Cuneo, wanted to be able to keep every opening 7 he could possibly draw. So he geared the deck to be as reliable as possible.

Also, upping the Llanowar count allows you to more easily recover from board wipes and win through grindy attrition matches. The difference is rather subtle, but in the matches where it counts, it really counts.

@ the SCG match right now

The player is clearly on a budget list. 2 Cradles. No arbor. No Crop Rotations to make up for the other Cradles missing. Fauna Shaman. Emrakul. I think he just borrowed the deck the day of the event. Or he just started playing the deck fairly recently. Or he is just a kitchen table dude. And all of those are okay. I still hope he X-0s the event with a suboptimal build and questionable plays. LOL. That would fill my heart with joy.

[Einherjer]

...and he still won...

[trevaftw]

@danyul

wrt Goblins - Don't forget Pyrokinesis. That can be devastating.

[Julian23]

The Goblin players in my meta started running Warren Weirdings and Pyrewild Shaman (go ahead, look it up!) to let their Turn1 Lackey connect through or at least kill a 1st turn DRS or Sentinel. I loled.

[danyul]

Right. I forgot to mention Pyrokinesis. I just play right through it. You can't really play around it so I just start going. Against Goblins you don't have the luxury of waiting around. They will outdraw you if you let them. The one thing I can say is to play out your elves as if your opponent has shown you a Lightning Bolt and always has a Mountain up. Play your Heritage Druids as late as possible. That way they need to shoot an inconsequential elf to keep you off 3, or they need to let it resolve and give you access to its mana before they get priority to shoot it. Stuff like that. Or play Visionary out before Wirewood, or the other way around, so they are forced to zap the one you care least about before the other resolves and gives you access to value via Visionary bounce. Stuff like that. Small stuff.

[Dice_Box]

What round was the Elf player in? Makes life easy once I am home to know? Thanks.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

Edit.
The thing about Pryo, it's kind of like grave hate. You either mull for it hard in your opener, or you just pray to draw it. That's why I like to keep as many cards in my hand as I can and go off at once. Because if they did not start with a god hand or mull hard, they are unlikely to wipe your board but you still have options. If they do have it they have to keep something in their hand to use it with and you offer few choice targets. But as you set up they have to slow you down some how so the card will end up used.

[danyul]

Round 4. The first round of Legacy coverage for the day.

[Einherjer]

Second round, actually. We've had Merfolk vs Grixis in R3.

Greetings

[Dice_Box]

K thanks.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[danyul]

Ooh. My bad. LOL I woke up just as the Round 4 coverage began so I'm a bit loopy this morning.

[trevaftw]

another elves feature match! and, lo and behold, versus goblins.

round 5, legacy open, 2013, atlanta

[danyul]

This guy has a proper build too. I think he's on Reid's list. The guy had a grip full of lands and gets overrun by red dudes. :(

[Dice_Box]

What colour is the Goblin build?

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[danyul]

Looks monored.

The misplay daggers from that last missed bounce may haunt this guy if he doesn't win.

[yuMi-]

Another bad elves player.

Jeff King and Joel Wright

[danyul]

Another bad elves player.

Jeff King and Joel Wright


LOL what is with this public shaming shit? No need to write their names down like you are going to exile them from the Elven Alliance. The deck is fairly complex and the guy may be nervous from being on camera. And everybody makes mistakes. This game is hard. It's easy to be a bully when you aren't the one playing. He made a misplay in that one moment. I'm sure he will watch the coverage later and never make that mistake again.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

LOL what is with this public shaming shit? No need to write their names down like you are going to exile them from the Elven Alliance. The deck is fairly complex and the guy may be nervous from being on camera. And everybody makes mistakes. This game is hard. It's easy to be a bully when you aren't the one playing. He made a misplay in that one moment. I'm sure he will watch the coverage later and never make that mistake again.

An excellent point. We're all learning . . . some of us--read as especially me--have a lot more learning to do than others. I am always glad to see people piloting versions of our deck. When they play well, I learn. When they play poorly, I learn. Of course, when they play better, they usually play longer, which means I learn more.

I'd love to see a post here that includes links to recorded games of people piloting the deck. I know that there are some links throughout the pages, but ti would be nice to have a section in the OP, perhaps, that includes links (and perhaps the minutes where the elves mage is playing.)

Edit: Here, for example, is one link (forgive me if this has already been posted elsewhere, as I know chrandersen posts here): http://www.twitch.tv/chris_vanmeter/b/459597137
Edit2: The link is dead. Apparently they took what was quite a nice twitch video down.

[Dice_Box]

Elves are on, they do not have "Repeat" on the screen so it seems to be live. King is playing.

Elves lost.

[LeoCop 90]

Jeff King ( the guy with the budget list i suppose) is 6-0 playing against shardless bug, near to 6-1 anyway. how is possible that people obtain such results with bad lists and playskills ?

[Dice_Box]

Jeff King ( the guy with the budget list i suppose) is 6-0 playing against shardless bug, near to 6-1 anyway. how is possible that people obtain such results with bad lists and playskills ?Luck and redundancy in the deck? How many other combo decks have so many options of play to them?

[LeoCop 90]

Luck for sure , plus the fact that elves deck is quite strong and difficult to fight also with budget cards. But I am still astonished by his results because i would never go to a very big tournament without a list that i consider optimal... maybe I'll try next time, go and play with some crappy card main deck and see if luck rewards me :)

[uncletiggy]

It never hurts to go with a sub optimal list attemping to cash into what you still need it is after all a game and having fun matters too...7-x should get him something. Not too mention experience in a larger setting is valuable

[Lemnear]

Jeff King ( the guy with the budget list i suppose) is 6-0 playing against shardless bug, near to 6-1 anyway. how is possible that people obtain such results with bad lists and playskills ?

Looks like that the players still have not adjusted to a point, where the last 10-20% of tuning to the Elves' lists matter.

That's kinda sad imo if your opponents are that unprepared that it doesn't even matter if you play Priest + Emrakul or NO + Hoof, not to talk about the minor topics of 3/4 NO, Llanowar/Birchlore, Hoof/Ruric Thar, Thorn/Thalia/Thoughtseize, 18/19/20 lands :/

This observation should change our perception about how to rate T8 performing lists.

[lordofthepit]

LOL what is with this public shaming shit? No need to write their names down like you are going to exile them from the Elven Alliance. The deck is fairly complex and the guy may be nervous from being on camera. And everybody makes mistakes. This game is hard. It's easy to be a bully when you aren't the one playing. He made a misplay in that one moment. I'm sure he will watch the coverage later and never make that mistake again.

No one on the Source ever makes play mistakes, and all our decklists are perfect.

[Kayradis]

No one on the Source ever makes play mistakes, and all our decklists are perfect.

I couldn't say better.

[bruizar]

So I went 2-2 unfortunately.

Jund 0-2
First game I flood out with 6 lands.

Second game I nearly combo off with a whole army of elves, but I wasn't drawing natural order, gsz or hoof, all of which I could hard cast. I get him down to 6, and I managed to block/return dryad arbor against his tarmogoyf, but his dark confidant just kept drawing removal spells. I couldn't deliver enough pressure because a Deathrite shaman was exiling creatures later on in the game. I boarded in 3 Abrupt Decays, a Jitte and some discard, but I drew none.

Angel Stompy 0-2
He's on the play, opens with chrome mox into chalice for one. I manage to play a GSZ and fetch a dryad arbor, eventually casting a natural order for Hoof, but because my hand was filled up with 1-drops, that hoof wasn't lethal. He manages to establish Batterskull and Jitte and I'm dead.

Game two I lead off with a good combo hand, but it turns out he kept a hand with 3 Swords to Plowshares and a jitte. After dealing with my team one for one with his multiple StP's, a Squadron Hawk gets his pals and a Jitte is quickly bashing in my skull. SfM/Batterskull happened too, so my natural order for Hoof was pretty useless. I learn the hard way to always bring progenitus with me.

Affinity 2-0
G1 He does dumb stuff and equips a cranial plating to a non-flyer which I just block with dryad arbor and return. I combo off dealing 50-ish damage and drawing half my deck.
G2 I board in Abrupt Decay, he gets a ravager and sacs a creature to it, I respond with Abrupt Decay, later he drops 2 disciples of the vault which would have been lethal considering the amount of artifacts he had on board. I explode on the battlefield, and a nasty hoof makes short work of him. I remember double-glimpsing this turn.

Esper Deathblade 2-1
Game 1 he has a god draw against me, he actually knows I'm on elves and opens with a T1 therapy on GSZ hitting two copies. He draws all 4 Swords to Plowshares in the first 3 turns, one of which hits my Craterhoof Behemoth. He follows up with a Zealous Persecution, a Counterspell, a wasteland for my bayou (cradle wasn't producing any mana at this point) and I just herp-a-derp-scoop.

G2 I win off the back of hoof. He kept a non interactive hand with only 2 plowshares and an SFM grabbing a jitte. At one point I tap deathrite shaman to eat his polluted delta, he responds by tapping his deathrite shaman and he mumbles something that I clearly didn't hear. He has an underground sea and a black mana producing land in play. I play a spell (glimpse i think?) and he plays counterspell. I tell him that he doesnt have to blue mana available. He tells me that he floated blue with deathrite shaman. I tell him that he should have said so, and if he did I would just empty the pool by going to my combat step/second mainphase. We agree that I can resolve the glimpse and that I'm in my second mainphase. I explode on the battlefield so now the impact of his jitte that would come online this turn is meaningless to my swarm of elves.

G3 was a turn 3 hoof with little interaction.

He forget to sideboard even though he had a nature's ruin, an extra zealous persecution and 2 envelops to counter my natural orders and zeniths.

Last night was an uphill nightmare.

[.Ix]

I really forgot how much I missed going Forest, Llanowar, go. I think I like it more than leading with Deathrite. The stability of always having a Turn 1 Manadork is just a timeless piece of tech.


I totally agree with this. Not having to use a Zenith for a Turn 1 manadork is fantastic.

I took down a really small LGS tourney with this pile:

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman

2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forest
1 Crop Rotation
2 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Savannah
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Dryad Arbor

I knew I would get paired against flying jitte decks, so MD Viridian was a must. I wasn't running 4 Cradles because they sucked when I tried them. Either they had no real effect on the game, or a Crop would have done the same thing in the slot without taking my land drop for the turn. So I decided against running them, played 1 Crop and 1 Viridian Shaman in the spare slot. I did not miss the extra Cradles at all.

All of this is from memory, so many details have been lost.

Round 1 - UR Delver
G1 - I get him early with glimpse-hoof
G2 - I glimpse T2. He bolts a Heritage in response to the first elf i cast, then bolts another elf in response to the second. I drew another glimpse, topdecked a Heritage Druid, and killed him.

1-0, 2-0

Round 2 - Mono black reanimator
G1 - T1 Llanowar, T2 glimpse and I actually go off. He looks at everything I play, so I decide to showboat a little and hardcast both Craterhoofs.
G2 - Fun game. I board in my Abrupt Decays and Ooze. T1 Putrid Imp, T2 Reanimate Blazing Archon, paying 9 life. At some point I Glimpse for about 3 cards, draw and play the Ooze. I take 20 damage with the Archon, but I gain 1 life by eating the Putrid Imp that I Abrupt Decayed. I draw cards with Visionary/Symbiote until I have 2 Deathrites in play and a Glimpse in hand. I Glimpse and go off until I have enough sorceries in the graveyard to take him from 11 to 0 with twiddled Deathrites. I've never found a real NEED for Birchlores before this game.

2-0, 2-0

Round 3 - All Spells (man, I hate this deck name.)
G1 - I win the die roll and open with DRS. He doesn't have a T1 kill and scoops.
G2 - I board in my Therapies and Thorns, but forget my Teeg. I mull to 6 and keep a hand with T2 Thorn. He doesn't have the T1, so he passes. I play a T1 Deathrite. He plays all his artifact mana (4 mana total) waiting to topdeck a Belcher. I play Thorn and an elf. He draws and passes. I Natural Order for Viridian Shaman, and play Wirewood Symbiote from my hand. He scoops. I got really lucky!

3-0, 6-0

Round 4 - Junk
G1 - I lose the die roll, mull to 5, and keep a mediocre hand because I didn't think I could draw a better 4, especially since he was playing discard. Surely enough, he opens with discard, taking my glimpse. I play 3 creatures over the next two turns. He plows each one and plays a Deathrite. I topdeck poop, and even have to NO for a 7/7 Craterhoof to slowroll him. It was really my only chance. He plays Elspeth, makes a token to chump until he lands a KOTR. I lose a few turns later.

G2 - I board in Progenitus, NO, and Arbor. I mull to a mediocre 5 yet again, playing a T1 elf. I TOPDECK PROGENITUS! His inquisition takes my Zenith, and I pray that my hand of Quirion Ranger and Nettles get there. He later gets a Jitte in play, but I have a fetch. He swings with Knight + Jitte, runs into my fetched Arbor and gets fogged. He gets annoyed and Plows the Ranger. I draw land, play it, and pass. He plays Liliana and makes me discard. I pitch Progenitus of course, and now I can actually NO for Progenitus to win, since I had enough creatures to pitch to Lili / Jitte. I don't topdeck NO and lose.

3-1, 6-2 and took 1st. It's not much, but I got a Stomping Grounds, the best rare out of all prize packs, and traded two of them for a French Crucible of Worlds. :D

I don't think I could have done much about that last round. Mulling to 4 in Game 2 could have given me a hand with NO-> prog, but given his disruption that would have been really unlikely.

[majikal]

Another bad elves player.

Jeff King and Joel Wright
Hey, fuck you buddy. I was on zero hours of sleep and had to drive to Atlanta at 5:30 in the morning, plus I had to face a 3-time pro tour Top 8 player on camera. I'd like to see you do better in that situation.

[DragoFireheart]

Hey, fuck you buddy. I was on zero hours of sleep and had to drive to Atlanta at 5:30 in the morning, plus I had to face a 3-time pro tour Top 8 player on camera. I'd like to see you do better in that situation.

But I thought Elves was a auto-pilot deck? Don't you just play them and turn them sideways and then win? /troll

[danyul]

Hey, fuck you buddy. I was on zero hours of sleep and had to drive to Atlanta at 5:30 in the morning, plus I had to face a 3-time pro tour Top 8 player on camera. I'd like to see you do better in that situation.

https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/pthon09/top8

Tom Ross ain't no joke. Tough losses man. You were bricking super hard in that first game. Don't stress the haters. Keep fighting the good pointy-eared fight. If I was on camera I would be nervous as shizzzzzz and would probably be trying to cast Forests off of Llanowar Elves.

[Zombie]

I've actually aimed a Maelstrom Pulse at an untapped Top due to nerves. Fucking thing haunts me to this day because the play was just so godawfully retarded.

[HoneyT]

On another note, I won a local legacy tournament this weekend with the following list:

// Deck: Elves (60)

// Lands
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote

// Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 4 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Thoughtseize

Matchups:

U/B Tezzeret 2-1
U/R Delver 2-0
Esper Deathblade 2-1
Omnishow 2-0

The list ran wonderfully. I wouldn't change a thing. I'm now a firm believer in the second Dryad Arbor. It was the best card for me on the weekend.

[afb0032]

Congrats on the win HoneyT. What advantages in your matchups did the 2nd Arbor provide during the event?

[Anusien]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/ths/obasdfkjw8324lz/MhZtozVOOQq_EN_LR.jpg

It's admittedly worse than Cradle, especially on turn 2 (especially because it doesn't count Dryad Arbor), but if there's ever a deck that would run Nythkos, it's this one. I think it's better than Crop Rotation because it doesn't get countered. It might even be relevant that one of these things can sit next to a Cradle on the battlefield.

[danyul]

As far as budget alternatives go, I'd maybe run this if I had ZERO Cradles. But if I have even a single Cradle, I'd rather have Crop Rotation.

I am a bit curious to see if this other Theros thing has a home, though -

Nemesis of Mortals
4gg
Creature — Snake Uncommon
Nemesis of Mortals costs 1 less to cast for each creature card in your graveyard.
7{G}{G}: Monstrosity 5. This ability costs 1 less to activate for each creature card in your graveyard. (If this creature isn't monstrous, put five +1/+1 counters on it and it becomes monstrous.)
5/5

I hate Perish and Supreme Verdict.

[Koby]

I hate Perish and Supreme Verdict.

Perish (Sorcery)
Elf (Creature)
Fetchland (Land)

At this point just play Goyf if the goal is to have a large beatstick with no relevant abilities after a sweeper. I hope that highlights just how bad both Goyf and the Snake are for that strategy.

Point stands: Vengevine is the best anti-sweeper card to play in these scenarios.

[danyul]

You right. You right. I just got a bit excited about casting bigass snakes.

I have calmed down now.

[Absolutflipz]

As far as budget alternatives go, I'd maybe run this if I had ZERO Cradles. But if I have even a single Cradle, I'd rather have Crop Rotation.

I am a bit curious to see if this other Theros thing has a home, though -

Nemesis of Mortals
4gg
Creature — Snake Uncommon
Nemesis of Mortals costs 1 less to cast for each creature card in your graveyard.
7{G}{G}: Monstrosity 5. This ability costs 1 less to activate for each creature card in your graveyard. (If this creature isn't monstrous, put five +1/+1 counters on it and it becomes monstrous.)
5/5

I hate Perish and Supreme Verdict.

Scavenging Ooze>>>>This

[HoneyT]

Congrats on the win HoneyT. What advantages in your matchups did the 2nd Arbor provide during the event?

That card singlehandedly allowed me to almost win G2 against Tezzeret through 2 Chalice of the Void on 1, a Chalice on 2, an Ensnaring Bridge and double Perish. I'll type out a more in depth report when I get to a computer tonight. Posting on my phone atm.

[bruizar]

The jund matchup of 2 days ago got me thinking about Eladamri, Lord of Leaves. I saw so many lightning bolts, plowshares and abrupt decays this weekend that I'm considering Eladamri, Lord of Leaves as a sideboard Green Sun's Zenith option. It helps me especially in the Jund matchup because they have goyfs and forests, which means I can bypass their biggest threat and clock them regardless. I understand that it disables Quirion Ranger's target, but I can still use it with Dryad Arbor. Natural Order would also require a Dryad Arbor or a Wirewood Symbiote (Symbiote can also bounce eladamri so I can target a non-symbiote creature). What is your opinion on Eladamri in a meta invested with spot removal and forests?

[danyul]

They just shoot your Eladamri and then shoot your other guys. You might as well GSZ up a Wirewood Symbiote. Does the same thing, pretty much. But without the drawback of blanking all your untap effects.

If you want the forestwalk, Elvish Champion is better.
.
..
...
But they can just shoot that too!

[HoneyT]

The jund matchup of 2 days ago got me thinking about Eladamri, Lord of Leaves. I saw so many lightning bolts, plowshares and abrupt decays this weekend that I'm considering Eladamri, Lord of Leaves as a sideboard Green Sun's Zenith option. It helps me especially in the Jund matchup because they have goyfs and forests, which means I can bypass their biggest threat and clock them regardless. I understand that it disables Quirion Ranger's target, but I can still use it with Dryad Arbor. Natural Order would also require a Dryad Arbor or a Wirewood Symbiote (Symbiote can also bounce eladamri so I can target a non-symbiote creature). What is your opinion on Eladamri in a meta invested with spot removal and forests?

Targets are declared before costs are paid. So you can't use Symbiote at all. Eladamri is just bad. The Jund matchup is not that bad. They have to kill every creature and cannot do that realistically. It's incredibly easy to overload their removal and combo off or fire of a NO.

[Kayradis]

I'm taking the rest of September off Elves.
Ideas what else I could play?
Heading towards TES or a degenerate combo deck

[Zombie]

I'm taking the rest of September off Elves.
Ideas what else I could play?
Heading towards TES or a degenerate combo deck

If you want to stay on the fair, tribal aggro style, TES is a good choice.

[Lemnear]

If you want to stay on the fair, tribal aggro style, TES is a good choice.

I agree ... "5-color-Goblins" is a nice way to take a break

[jarvisyu]

played a local GPT with NO Elves because 'I wanted to feel something'.

//20
9 Green Fetchland
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Gaea's Cradle

//29
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Llanowar Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Craterhoof Behemoth

//11
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

minireport:
r1 vs UWr miracles: won 2-1
r2 vs RUG Delver: won 2-1
r3 vs Team America (with Liliana main, but had Tombstalkers): won 2-0
r4 vs UW Painter-Stone: Lost 0-2
r5 vs Sneak: Draw

r1 of t8 vs D&T: won 2-1 (died to flickerwisp beatdown in game 2, embarrassing)
r2 of t8 vs ANT: won 2-1 (nothing that interesting here, but I think i got extremely lucky to win)
r3 of t8 vs UW Painter-Stone: won 2-0 (did not board in Progenitus this time because I saw in the swiss that he was boarding in RiP vs me)

deck is extremely strong and I only really fear other fast combo decks (sneak/storm). the mass amounts of discard postboard help a lot, but Blood Moon is fairly scary from other decks too (i would consider maybe a 3rd basic forest).

I already had 3 byes for the GP, but there were also dual lands on the line for 1st vs 2nd (a tundra vs a scrubland, i want to say...?)

I played a lot of Extended Elves (after PT:Berlin), so picking up the deck again, I wasn't 100% blind...

[DragoFireheart]

, but Blood Moon is fairly scary from other decks too (i would consider maybe a 3rd basic forest).


Really? Blood Moon can impact this deck negatively?

[Kayradis]

Good finish!
I guess I'll see you in DC?

[Dice_Box]

Really? Blood Moon can impact this deck negatively?
If it is dropped turn one yes. If you have fetched a non basic and do not have a mana dork, or if you are on the draw you're more or less fucked. This is why I keep saying "Run more basics." Test against moon. Just because we can create lots of mana early does not change that if our starting suply gets choked off we are in deep water.

[Lemnear]

In all honest, running one more Basic in a 60 card pile changes nothing against T1 Bloodmon on the draw. You can't run 5-6 Basics and still expect DRS working either

[Dice_Box]

I agree with that, but I disagree with running only one basic. I feel 2 is the min that you should use.

[jarvisyu]

Good finish!
I guess I'll see you in DC?

I was going to be there regardless already, yeah (since i had 3 byes from 1500 pwp, so broken!)

who should I be looking out for namewise? :p

[HoneyT]

r3 of t8 vs UW Painter-Stone: won 2-0 (did not board in Progenitus this time because I saw in the swiss that he was boarding in RiP vs me)


Alright, let's clear things up. Progenitus is a replacement effect, not a trigger like Emrakul. RiP doesn't do anything against it. You just choose to shuffle Progenitus in instead of exiling it.

If he activates Grindstone with 1 Progenitus in your deck, Progenitus will be the last card in your deck and Grindstone will stop.

So you should board it in. It gives you one more turn to kill him.

[Zombie]

Alright, let's clear things up. Progenitus is a replacement effect, not a trigger like Emrakul. RiP doesn't do anything against it. You just choose to shuffle Progenitus in instead of exiling it.

If he activates Grindstone with 1 Progenitus in your deck, Progenitus will be the last card in your deck and Grindstone will stop.

So you should board it in. It gives you one more turn to kill him.

Actually, no. You have to eventually exile the Progenitus to end the loop. Choosing to shuffle works but tournament rules say if you can break an infinite draw-forcing loop you have to.

[danyul]

That is wildly confusing.

[Koby]

It's not a may effect so he can't be exiled to end the loop. The game would end in a draw.

Two replacements effecting the same card for the same action can be chosen in any order. Controller gets to pick which one. The game does NOT end up in a draw, since only one card is milled this way and Grindstone's continuation condition is not met (2 cards).


Actually, no. You have to eventually exile the Progenitus to end the loop. Choosing to shuffle works but tournament rules say if you can break an infinite draw-forcing loop you have to.

Only if you have two Progenitus. Grindstone does not continue if it only spots 1 card milled.

[Koby]

Even with two they still can not be exiled. The game would end in a draw at this point.

Only if there is no RIP in play as well. Please read this thread to understand why (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24991-Helm-Combo-vs-Progenitus).

[kingtk3]

Actually, no. You have to eventually exile the Progenitus to end the loop. Choosing to shuffle works but tournament rules say if you can break an infinite draw-forcing loop you have to.

It's not a loop: if you have only a Progenitus in the deck it will be the last card remaining when grindstone is activated; since it will be only one card in the library, grindstone doesn't have another card to check so the loop breaks.

If you have 2 progenitus in the deck then you have a loop.

EDIT: ninja-ed by Koby...

[DragoFireheart]

Yes, a very good call from Koby. It's not a infinitely recurring loop as the player has the ability to make a choice at some point that will end the loop.

So, having the hydra against Grindstone can give you one more turn.

[HoneyT]

Thanks for the backing me there Koby. Apologies. I could have been clearer when explaining that; it was just a lot to type on my phone.

[jarvisyu]

Alright, let's clear things up. Progenitus is a replacement effect, not a trigger like Emrakul. RiP doesn't do anything against it. You just choose to shuffle Progenitus in instead of exiling it.

If he activates Grindstone with 1 Progenitus in your deck, Progenitus will be the last card in your deck and Grindstone will stop.

So you should board it in. It gives you one more turn to kill him.

ok interesting, I obviously did not realize that.

However, the other reason I didn't board it in for the second match was I didn't want a dead card in the combo mirror. I figured I could just kill him faster (esp with the assistance of 7 spot discard spells).

[Dice_Box]

I love playing painter, I hate playing against it. Really the deck is not that fast if you do not start with Grindstone in your hand. If you face the deck just fetch basics and race it. About 70% of the time your going to be faster than the deck and it not interact with you until after Painter comes down onto the table.

[jarvisyu]

I love playing painter, I hate playing against it. Really the deck is not that fast if you do not start with Grindstone in your hand. If you face the deck just fetch basics and race it. About 70% of the time your going to be faster than the deck and it not interact with you until after Painter comes down onto the table.

yeah, I agree with that assessment, which is a major reason I didn't bring in Progenitus for the rematch.

especially vs the blue-white variant I was playing against, he didn't seem very fast, and i knew he was diluting his deck with cards like ensnaring bridge and RiP based on what I saw from the previous match.

[Dice_Box]

Ok against the U/W you need to go FAST. Do not worry about moon, its not going to happen but in the U/W version they have 8 ways to fetch any of the combo cards. If done right they are a turn 3/4 without a lock. The Red version is a Prison combo deck. The Blue one is a Temp combo deck.

I do not know why you would bring in Bridge against Elves tho. You are just going to get swamped by 1/1's. Wait why I am saying that to an elf thread... Ok taking my leave now...

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

I'm taking the rest of September off Elves.
Ideas what else I could play?
Heading towards TES or a degenerate combo deck

I like Zombardment as a fun alternative.

[Kayradis]

TES is built but I kept Elves near in case I change my mind based on the meta tonight.
Running the same list I ran at the last tournament (3rd place) with the -1 Regal Force +1 Cratherhoof change

[Julian23]

with the -1 Regal Force +1 Cratherhoof rectification

FTFY ;-) I guess Regal Force is a card of the past for now...

[Kayradis]

I included it in my last list, but I never found a use for it in 7 rounds (including Top8/4) and I believe I could have used another hoof if available. I'm still 100% behind MD Ruric Thar. The guy is NUTS. In the worst case scenario (Swords To Plowshares) he creates a 12 life total difference. In the best case, they scoop.

[Lemnear]

I included it in my last list, but I never found a use for it in 7 rounds (including Top8/4) and I believe I could have used another hoof if available. I'm still 100% behind MD Ruric Thar. The guy is NUTS. In the worst case scenario (Swords To Plowshares) he creates a 12 life total difference. In the best case, they scoop.

Worst case Scenario is an opponent controlling Karakas, right Daniel? ;D

[Kayradis]

I dont think I'd NO for him if they have a Karakas on the board. Would probably be boarded out for Progenitus in that specific case.

[danyul]

worst case scenario is an opponent controlling karakas, right daniel? ;d

Noooooooooooooooooo. Ruric thar you coward!!!!!!

[Kayradis]

Ruric Thar is the shit.

Danyul, I might eventually put your foily Elves! deck to shame (thanks to Lemnear!!!).

Pictures to come once the package cross the pond.

[danyul]

I've been making some upgrades as well.

I welcome the challenge.

[Kayradis]

This is gonna be interesting!

[MD.Ghost]

I also created a new build:

Mainboard
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor

2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Duress
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Harmonic Sliver

After the discussed 4 Bircholore Speed Build, i am back to a more traditional list with 1 Llanowar and 4 Quirion Ranger. I also tried many alternativ winconditions compared to the 4th Natural Order and decided that 1 Elvish Archdruid is flexible (adds mana, adds additional pump damage, adds an answer against plage and charm etc.) and cheap enough - basically another must answer for most decks.

Sideboard has many established cards, but it is the first time i kicked gaddock teeg and add 2 additional discard effects for aggressive turn 1 disruption. Without Teeg you can also board in the 4th Natural Order against Combo, because you only need an resolved Ruric Thar (your opponent needs chain of vapor in hand to answer this). Harmonic Sliver is the only white Spell in my current 75 cards, so i decided to kick the Savannah for the common 8th Fetchland.

[Dice_Box]

I like Thar main as well. I am thinking that he is of less use in the side when you need him most in that first game. Second game they board in hate too and while still effective, he is hated out a lot.

[Kayradis]

@MD.Ghost : Ezuri > Archdruid. Same cost and has more usefull application. Pyroclasm? Overrun! Bolt? OVERRUN! Swords? Overrun! (I GAIN 5!)

alright.

he overruns.

[Lemnear]

I also created a new build:

Mainboard
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor

2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Duress
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Harmonic Sliver

After the discussed 4 Bircholore Speed Build, i am back to a more traditional list with 1 Llanowar and 4 Quirion Ranger. I also tried many alternativ winconditions compared to the 4th Natural Order and decided that 1 Elvish Archdruid is flexible (adds mana, adds additional pump damage, adds an answer against plage and charm etc.) and cheap enough - basically another must answer for most decks.

Sideboard has many established cards, but it is the first time i kicked gaddock teeg and add 2 additional discard effects for aggressive turn 1 disruption. Without Teeg you can also board in the 4th Natural Order against Combo, because you only need an resolved Ruric Thar (your opponent needs chain of vapor in hand to answer this). Harmonic Sliver is the only white Spell in my current 75 cards, so i decided to kick the Savannah for the common 8th Fetchland.

Dood, you won't need the additional discard against combo ... I'm not attending this saturday ;D Greetings to Kai, Eike and Casten!

I dunno if an Archdruid is SUCH a must-counter compared to NO :/




Ruric Thar is the shit.

Danyul, I might eventually put your foily Elves! deck to shame (thanks to Lemnear!!!).

Pictures to come once the package cross the pond.

Yeah! Lemnear, your #1 source for german foils!

#TheSource'sNotAdFree XD

[Kayradis]

Did we just found a loophole?

[nudon]

@kayradis: Isn't running 3 fatties (2 hoof + 1 thar) main deck a bit excessive? You greatly increase the risk of drawing one in your opening 7.

@people running the 4 birchlore speed build or elven mages who want to chime in: During my 8 rounds and eventual top 4 split a few weeks back, I generally didn't miss llanowar except when keeping a 1-lander with several visionaries in hand. Maybe it doesn't matter since I was able to grind out the match anyway but was just curious how often the following scenarios come up for you guys with turn 1 birchlore.

- 1 land and visionaries stuck in hand
- 2 lands and unable to gsz for visionary t2
- 2 lands and unable to gsz for gaddock teeg t2

[Dice_Box]

Not being able to GSZ in your opening is not a big deal if you have a NO or a Glimpse. If you are totally out of those three choices I would have a long and hard thought about keeping that hand. I do not like to rely on Visionary do get the job done. If someone does not know the bounce trick, they learn it fast. Once they do they let the burn fly and you lose your drawing power. So I think the question is more about keeping the hand based on its win conditions, not if Birchlore is in it.

Really all Birchlore offers is a way to use summoning sick elves and another way to gain off colour mana. Outside of that, he is just another one drop that is often obsolete the moment Heritage hits the table. But if you compare Birchlore to Llanowar, Llanowar is a card you really want in your opener or to drop turn two but the ass drops out of his stock portfolio each turn after. Birchlore is the card that you do not card when you see it, but he is almost never as good as a turn one Llanowar. But Birchlore does offer a much better return on the draw.

Question. To those running Thar main. Do you run a second Hoof in the side?

[Zombie]

Nope. Ruric, Hoof main, Prog side.

[nudon]

Not being able to GSZ in your opening is not a big deal if you have a NO or a Glimpse. If you are totally out of those three choices I would have a long and hard thought about keeping that hand. I do not like to rely on Visionary do get the job done. If someone does not know the bounce trick, they learn it fast. Once they do they let the burn fly and you lose your drawing power. So I think the question is more about keeping the hand based on its win conditions, not if Birchlore is in it.

Really all Birchlore offers is a way to use summoning sick elves and another way to gain off colour mana. Outside of that, he is just another one drop that is often obsolete the moment Heritage hits the table. But if you compare Birchlore to Llanowar, Llanowar is a card you really want in your opener or to drop turn two but the ass drops out of his stock portfolio each turn after. Birchlore is the card that you do not card when you see it, but he is almost never as good as a turn one Llanowar. But Birchlore does offer a much better return on the draw.

Question. To those running Thar main. Do you run a second Hoof in the side?

The question was posed in regards to possibly reducing the birchlore count for a few llanowars to be more consistent on turn 2. Most of the commentary from advocates of 1-3 llanowar haven't tried the 4x birchlore build so I wanted perspective from Lemnear and others who have tested both. GSZ->teeg is a GAME WINNING play against storm. With symbiote in hand, gsz->visionary is a super important play. Not only does it cantrip, it forces the opponent to waste removal on visionary with symbiote on the stack. I think you're underestimating the power of 2-for-1ing someone. A lot of what you said in the second paragraph is common knowledge to all of us so there's really no need to restate.

I cut Thar from my sb recently but if you wanted to run him, there's no point of a second hoof in the side. For match-ups where you don't want Thar, Progenitus comes in.

Edit: Ninja'ed by Zombie :)

[Lemnear]

@people running the 4 birchlore speed build or elven mages who want to chime in: During my 8 rounds and eventual top 4 split a few weeks back, I generally didn't miss llanowar except when keeping a 1-lander with several visionaries in hand. Maybe it doesn't matter since I was able to grind out the match anyway but was just curious how often the following scenarios come up for you guys with turn 1 birchlore.

- 1 land and visionaries stuck in hand
- 2 lands and unable to gsz for visionary t2
- 2 lands and unable to gsz for gaddock teeg t2


The question was posed in regards to possibly reducing the birchlore count for a few llanowars to be more consistent on turn 2. Most of the commentary from advocates of 1-3 llanowar haven't tried the 4x birchlore build so I wanted perspective from Lemnear and others who have tested both. GSZ->teeg is a GAME WINNING play against storm. With symbiote in hand, gsz->visionary is a super important play. Not only does it cantrip, it forces the opponent to waste removal on visionary with symbiote on the stack. I think you're underestimating the power of 2-for-1ing someone. A lot of what you said in the second paragraph is common knowledge to all of us so there's really no need to restate.

I cut Thar from my sb recently but if you wanted to run him, there's no point of a second hoof in the side. For match-ups where you don't want Thar, Progenitus comes in.

I'm free to betray secrets here and want to mention that Turn 2 Teeg is NOT a game winning play against storm unless we're discussing ANT preboard. All storm iterations are well aware about Cannonist, Thalia, Teeg and DRS. I would not be surprised if we see more Pyroclasms postboard from storm.dec and I think it's questionable to keeps hands because of their access to Teeg or Visionary alone, rather than for their potential to Glimpse/NO/Discard/Thorn/Thalia in that particular matchup.

One step further, I question the inclusion of Teeg atm because most Combo decks can easily outplay him, especially postboard.

The 4 Birchlore builds can have problems if there's no other 1cc elf in your hand and you are on a single land unlike with Llanowar (regardless of the fact that I would mull such a hand anyways), but that was the fundamental reason to up the landcount to my known 19 (with 10 Fetches) months ago to reduce the chance of that ugly 1-landers happening.

To me, the 3 scenarios you asked about are minor issues, possibly resulting from questionable keeps. I do care a lot more about having multiple outs for Black/White mana in terms of SB disruption and DRS-machine-gun (relevant against RUG Delver & ANT). It's more backbreaking for combo to face a Thalia or Cannonist than Teeg because the Kithkin overlords only blocks the engine-cards but not the progress/filtering for an answer to the Legendary 2-drop and it's not like a 1-Lander with Llanowar is an automatic Keeper in a World of Daze, Wasteland, Lightning Bolt and ... urgh ... Forked Bolt! Not to forget the Karakas still in some ANT SB's and Maindeck-staple in Miracles/Blade-Variants.

Having only access to Black mana via 2 Bayous and the number of Fetches (which some peeps even reduce to run more basics, because they think that adresses Blood Moon! lol) is something to let sink in ... DRS is the reason this deck is Tier 1 atm and I don't think the development of the deck should lead us towards decreasing it's capacity by having less access to Black mana which is also required for the SB ... especially with the trend to run more discard than just the 4 Therapies (I still had no Chance to test with additional Thoughtseize).

The only advantages I see for Llanowars was already mentioned a few pages back in the thread: It creates more mana than Birchlore on paper (unless toolbox elves or summoning sick DRS join Birchlore) and is therefore an unconditional mana-accelerator unlike the B.Rangers and Llanowars are much better for rebuilding after a sweeper ... but afaik, being hit by a sweeper pretty much equals a loss regardless.


Edit: Forgive me my horrible grammer and typos, i'm at my way to work, switching Public transport

[Kayradis]

@kayradis: Isn't running 3 fatties (2 hoof + 1 thar) main deck a bit excessive? You greatly increase the risk of drawing one in your opening 7.



Ruric Thar is surprizingly easy to hardcast. 6 Mana is not hard to achieve with the deck on Turn 2/3 and shuts down lots of options your opponent might have at that point.

The second hoof is exactly for that scenario. You have one stuck in hand? NO for the other one. I wouldn't be surprise that someone in the near future NO for Hoof, swing then next turn Sac the Hoof to NO to go fetch the other one. If stuck in hand?
Cradle for X, Play cradle/sac cradle, tap for X, Hoof?

[Dice_Box]

Cradle for X, Play cradle/sac cradle, tap for X, Hoof?This to me seems like a bit of a pipe dream. Yes it can be done, but how often are you liking cradles like that and not tapping elves for big mana? I don't often get anywhere near that lucky.

[Kayradis]

I'll package you some of my luck and send it for Xmas! :)

[nudon]

Ask and you shall receive. Thanks for the response!


I'm free to betray secrets here and want to mention that Turn 2 Teeg is NOT a game winning play against storm unless we're discussing ANT preboard.

I agree and should have better articulated that I meant teeg slows storm down when they don't have access to their outs (i.e. burning wish, CoV, etc.). You mentioned that the inclusion of the legendary kithkin is now questionable in your eyes. You don't think allowing your gsz's to complement the discard is worth 1 sb slot?


The 4 Birchlore builds can have problems if there's no other 1cc elf in your hand and you are on a single land unlike with Llanowar (regardless of the fact that I would mull such a hand anyways), but that was the fundamental reason to up the landcount to my known 19 (with 10 Fetches) months ago to reduce the chance of that ugly 1-landers happening.

I had been debating internally with increasing the land count from 18 to 19 as well. I guess I'll cut the 4th quirion ranger for another fetch as this should alleviate some of the strain of deciding whether to keep an opening 7 susceptible to a single wasteland/stifle.


Having only access to Black mana via 2 Bayous and the number of Fetches (which some peeps even reduce to run more basics, because they think that adresses Blood Moon! lol) is something to let sink in ... DRS is the reason this deck is Tier 1 atm and I don't think the development of the deck should lead us towards decreasing it's capacity by having less access to Black mana which is also required for the SB ... especially with the trend to run more discard than just the 4 Therapies (I still had no Chance to test with additional Thoughtseize).

Edit: Forgive me my horrible grammer and typos, i'm at my way to work, switching Public transport

I definitely agree that the notion of a second basic forest addressing blood moon is laughable. However, I think the second forest has merit in that it protects your turn 3 play. Being able to fetch a second basic turn 2 will guarantee that you can go off next turn. This is analogous to your previous example that 4 birchlore rangers guarantee a game-breaking turn 3.

In regards to the sb, thorn of amethyst is definitely a bomb against storm. However, is an opening 7 consisting of thorn but no discard worthy of keep on the draw? Your opponent will have 2 full turns before you can play your trump card. Does having access to glimpse in conjunction with thorns change anything?

No worries, I understood you just fine. :)

[Dice_Box]

Just wanting to clarify, when you say 19 land, do you count Dryad in that count?

[Lemnear]

Ask and you shall receive. Thanks for the response!

not a big deal :)

I agree and should have better articulated that I meant teeg slows storm down when they don't have access to their outs (i.e. burning wish, CoV, etc.). You mentioned that the inclusion of the legendary kithkin is now questionable in your eyes. You don't think allowing your gsz's to complement the discard is worth 1 sb slot?

Teeg is a GSZ target aka costing 3 mana. As you mention at the end of your post, 2 mana for a Thorn CAN be too slow against certain decks. I doubt a 3cc solution would turn the tide then. The point is that it does not slow down TES' Infernals, Wishes and cantrips at all to find a solution for him or even the whole field as Wish into Pyroclasm/Grapeshot isn't affected at all.

I had been debating internally with increasing the land count from 18 to 19 as well. I guess I'll cut the 4th quirion ranger for another fetch as this should alleviate some of the strain of deciding whether to keep an opening 7 susceptible to a single wasteland/stifle.

Despite being able to work with a single land, Elves should not do that and then scoop to a single Wasteland, Stifle, Lightning Bolt or Counter (targeting a mana dork).

I definitely agree that the notion of a second basic forest addressing blood moon is laughable. However, I think the second forest has merit in that it protects your turn 3 play. Being able to fetch a second basic turn 2 will guarantee that you can go off next turn. This is analogous to your previous example that 4 birchlore rangers guarantee a game-breaking turn 3.

It's only analoge so a certain degree imo. You might agree that the first land is tremendously more important to survive than the second. Wastelanding your second land is pretty much wayne after you untapped already with DRS or have already an elf in play to combo with Birchlore. It rarely bites my ass ;D

In regards to the sb, thorn of amethyst is definitely a bomb against storm. However, is an opening 7 consisting of thorn but no discard worthy of keep on the draw? Your opponent will have 2 full turns before you can play your trump card. Does having access to glimpse in conjunction with thorns change anything?

Glimpse and NO were my slots to board out previously. I leave the testing of Thoughtseizes instead of the resistors to others, because I'm buisy preparing my Miracles and TES for BoM

No worries, I understood you just fine. :)



Just wanting to clarify, when you say 19 land, do you count Dryad in that count?

Yes, 14 initial mana, 4 Cradles, 1 Arbor

[trevaftw]

@MD.Ghost : Ezuri > Archdruid. Same cost and has more usefull application. Pyroclasm? Overrun! Bolt? OVERRUN! Swords? Overrun! (I GAIN 5!)

alright.

he overruns.

Archdruid is a tutorable elf cradle as well.

[Lemnear]

Archdruid is a tutorable elf cradle as well.

A summoning sick elf cradle which even costs serious mana ... with all the Investment even the Legendary Theros Land appears reasonable lol

[nudon]

Glimpse and NO were my slots to board out previously. I leave the testing of Thoughtseizes instead of the resistors to others, because I'm buisy preparing my Miracles and TES for BoM

You board out the full play-sets of both glimpse and NO? I'm assuming you board in something along the lines of 4 therapy, 2 thorn, 1 thalia, and maybe 1 teeg. Doesn't this strategy make you over-reliant on drawing and resolving (get past their silence/discard) one of your sb cards in your opening 7? Moreover, without glimpse and NO, you're relying purely on turning guys sideways in order to get there. Isn't that too slow (especially on the draw)? I've seen players board out glimpse or NO but never both. I would think that visionary is a better card to cut than glimpse. Both igri and I have the same board strategy of +4 therapy, +3 thorn/thalia, +1 teeg, -4 NO, -3 visionary, -1 hoof. What do y'all think? Here's a list of common board strategies against storm:

1. Cut NO and visionaries and rely on glimpse/turn sideways ftw. See above.
2. Cut glimpse and visionaries and rely on NO->hoof/thar ftw.
3. Cut visionaries + symbiotes and rely on diluted glimpse/NO->hoof/thar ftw.

[Lemnear]

You board out the full play-sets of both glimpse and NO? I'm assuming you board in something along the lines of 4 therapy, 2 thorn, 1 thalia, and maybe 1 teeg. Doesn't this strategy make you over-reliant on drawing and resolving (get past their silence/discard) one of your sb cards in your opening 7? Moreover, without glimpse and NO, you're relying purely on turning guys sideways in order to get there. Isn't that too slow (especially on the draw)? I've seen players board out glimpse or NO but never both. I would think that visionary is a better card to cut than glimpse. Both igri and I have the same board strategy of +4 therapy, +3 thorn/thalia, +1 teeg, -4 NO, -3 visionary, -1 hoof. What do y'all think? Here's a list of common board strategies against storm:

1. Cut NO and visionaries and rely on glimpse/turn sideways ftw. See above.
2. Cut glimpse and visionaries and rely on NO->hoof/thar ftw.
3. Cut visionaries + symbiotes and rely on diluted glimpse/NO->hoof/thar ftw.

Just bad experience with havin resistors + Glimpse ... non-topic with more discard I guess

[trevaftw]

A summoning sick elf cradle which even costs serious mana ... with all the Investment even the Legendary Theros Land appears reasonable lol

Have you ever had games where you had Craterhoof, Progenitus, and Ruric thar in your hand? I have. It sucks. This gives you a way to get them out if you draw a GSZ/NO.

[Lemnear]

Have you ever had games where you had Craterhoof, Progenitus, and Ruric thar in your hand? I have. It sucks. This gives you a way to get them out if you draw a GSZ/NO.

No, never. Maybe because I don't run 3 NO targets at a time

[LeoCop 90]

Just a curiosity: is there any reason why the name of this deck is followed by an exclamation mark? ( Elves!)

[Julian23]

Always has been this way. The way I see it, it addresses the explosiveness of the deck; like someone shouting "OMG ELVES!!!" when 30 of them hit the table on turn2 or 3.

[danyul]

Just a curiosity: is there any reason why the name of this deck is followed by an exclamation mark? ( Elves!)

It also expresses some of the surprise people often felt when they saw an Elf tribal deck actually work in a competitive setting. Elf decks used to be the sign of a huge scrub and have always been a very popular tribal deck type for casual kitchen table players. Seeing one played in a serious tournament setting was once a very odd thing indeed.

[trevaftw]

No, never. Maybe because I don't run 3 NO targets at a time

So you're saying there's never been a time when you had all of your natural order targets in hand with no way to cast them?

[danyul]

Having all your NO targets in hand without a way to cast them should happen so incredibly infrequently that it isn't even worth planning an out for. Your out is just your entire deck, which is designed and tuned to make as much mana as quickly as possible.

In other news, I have cut all the White out of my 75 as a bit of an experiment. I'm gonna jam that at my locals and see how it runs.

[Dice_Box]

Other than Harmonic and Teeg, how much white is run these days?

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[danyul]

That's actually about it. The biggest reason for me to cut white was actually the manabase. I needed to streamline it a bit and the Savannah was cramping my style and needed to go. I thought about the matchups where I would bring in Teeg/Harmonic and decided that I could shore up those slots with other non-white alternatives and just go full Golgari. I haven't given this new configuration any serious testing yet so the verdict is still out.

[Dice_Box]

What alternative cards are you looking at? Since I moved Thar main I have been forced to cut a basic and add a Taiga, dropping back to 3 colours appeals to me.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Zombie]

Well, a 7 discard board worked for Reid Duke, can't see how discard + perhaps resistors type board wouldn't work for a Golgari deck. Cutting white is actually a pretty nice solution to the mana base issue. You can keep 2 Bayous, 2 Forests and a high fetch count. I like it quite a bit.

2 Birchlore, 4 DRS is enough for maindeck Thar, the Taiga is pretty much useless IMHO.

[danyul]

What alternative cards are you looking at? Since I moved Thar main I have been forced to cut a basic and add a Taiga, dropping back to 3 colours appeals to me.


I've maxed out on SB Abrupt Decay and have the 7 discard package. I might want to make the 4th Decay into something that can kill a Leyline/Humility, but those gamestates happen so rarely that I'd rather just leave it up to luck and hope not to see that stuff happen to me.


Well, a 7 discard board worked for Reid Duke, can't see how discard + perhaps resistors type board wouldn't work for a Golgari deck. Cutting white is actually a pretty nice solution to the mana base issue. You can keep 2 Bayous, 2 Forests and a high fetch count. I like it quite a bit.

Yeah the primary reason I wanted to cut the Savannah was that I have only been running 8 fetch and would like to eventually hit 10. Cutting white gets me to 9 with 2 basic lands, and for now that will have to do. I don't really like going below 2 basics.

[Dice_Box]

Forgot about Deathrite... You guys keep pushing me like this I might find myself with 10 fetches. I do that and I need another Windswept for the split.

Thar I want main. I know he can save me game two, but he can win game one. He is just too useful.

So are we looking at a 7 discard, 3 meek, 2/3 Decay, 1 NO target and then like 1/2 flex for the side? If so I vote at lest 1 enchantment hate main.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[danyul]

LoL no need to vote. You just play whatever works for you in your meta. But the enchantment hate I was looking at was a choice between Golgari Charm, which also can be randomly brought in against Verdict/Pyroclasm as well as Empty the Warrens tokens, or Krosan Grip, which is less flexible but has split second.

[Dice_Box]

I would go with the charm. Most of the issues are handled just fine with Decay. I would seek something that offers a broader use than just hitting the stuff Decay can not.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Kayradis]

I'm not 100% behind cutting :w:. It opens us to tons of SB options and I don't see 1 x Savannah being too much of a problem.

Also, I don't run any :r: source for Ruric Thar, The Unbowed since he's over 90% of the time a GSZ/NO target and if the need arise to cast him, Birchlore Ranger and DRS can create :r:.