[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[Atog]

Most of the time its Warrens Weirding in multiples that gives me trouble and i dont want to talk about Krosan Grip..
Asume that they have put down a Lackey and then Fetch on turn 2, is it good to Stifle here or to keep the Stifle and try to get Nought asap?
Regarding Wasteland, i do like you said if i dont plan to play Standstill, where i try to keep them for there Wastelands to hit with Mishras.


That depends what you have in hand. If you have counterbackup, i would drop nought. Then opponent have 2 turns left to answer your nought or die away. If you stifle fetch and then don't have another stifle in hand you give opponent time to find some answers or/and new threats.

And that wasteland still, i try to avoid dropping that if it's possible. Opponent has many time fetch taiga or plateau (he plays rgw-goblins) because i don't have wasteland in play. Sometimes i have won game by manascrewing opponent when he fetch first taiga, then drop lackey or vial and i daze it. Then i play wasteland and destroy his only land. They sometimes trust that vial / lackey too much so they can start with only one land.

[Atog]

Have anyone played recently against Merfolks? Just thinking what kinda matchup that is because vials, standstills and mutavaults from opponent. Countertop is good there and EE will shine too, right? How about our side? Do we side out all standstills for REBs/Echoing truths(resolved LoA is going to be problem if not solved quick)? Any comments are welcome :)

[jazzykat]

I have played against merfolk lists that aren't quite the normal build. Counter/Top is OK, EE sort of sucks since their cc's are different and it is a bit slow.

Again your MVP's here would be Pyroclasm or Firespout but you don't want to play them.

Personally I would take out all my Standstills and if necessary an EE or 2 to put in: REB, Pyroclasm/Firespout, and PITHING NEEDLE because vial will own you.

[J.V.]

Yeah like most tribal decks, merfolk can give Dreadstill a run for its money. -Standstills +Rebs, Firespouts/Echoing truth tends to be the strategy against them.

[Atog]

I have played against merfolk lists that aren't quite the normal build. Counter/Top is OK, EE sort of sucks since their cc's are different and it is a bit slow.

Again your MVP's here would be Pyroclasm or Firespout but you don't want to play them.

Personally I would take out all my Standstills and if necessary an EE or 2 to put in: REB, Pyroclasm/Firespout, and PITHING NEEDLE because vial will own you.

Yep, i just forget that needle. That's obvious. How your games went against that list? Did it play mutavaults and wastelands or just either one?

[jazzykat]

Yep, i just forget that needle. That's obvious. How your games went against that list? Did it play mutavaults and wastelands or just either one?

They had mutavaults and my results don't help you, Pyroclasm and Firespout DESTROYED them. The game I didn't draw one I lost.

[Rood]

Merfolk is a very very tough matchup even with removal/REBs postboard. Try to get lucky if you can G1 and G2-G3 it's probally about a 50/50 matchup. I'd say it's the toughest out of the tribal decks for Dreadstill.

[FredMaster]

Well they have not much out for an early Nought, have they?
At least thats the way I win games against this deck.

[BKclassic]

Well they have not much out for an early Nought, have they?
At least thats the way I win games against this deck.

Yeah, i have played 3 matches against Merfolk and I have never dropped a game. Run Spell Snare. As long as you can control Lord of Atlantis and Aether Vial, they don't really get ahead. Goyf is better then weenies and Factory is better than Mutavault. If they are running a splash, thats just gravy because that means you can Stifle their fetches and Waste their duals. Nought is a beating.

[Rodney]

This is my Dreadstill: (list of standard Rodney Hannigan ... I think the best ... the Ur version allows us a first perfect game by Mono U .. 2 game in our strategy is implemented by cards MU improve our worst:

creatures

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Mage trinket

instant

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind

enchantment

3 counterbalance
4 Standstill

artifact

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top

land

3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland


Sideboard:

3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 echoing Truth
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Magus of the Moon

The side as I said earlier adverse MU improves some of this deck ... I Think the real problem with the exit of Pyroclasm is the worsening of MU to Goblin ... there are BEB and EE but could nn enough ... some criticism or suggestions?

[e=mc^2]

@Rodney Before my last tourney I switched out my Firespouts for Magus of the Moon, and in he first round I faced Merfolk. I got slaughtered. If you expect to face a lot of aggro I would think that Firespout would go in the MotM slot.

I have question about facing TES and ANT, as I expect to see a lot of it at the Winter Wonderland tourney. What do people board them against it, and how do you play against them?

[J.V.]

What build are you going to be playing? I'll give you a sideboarding strategy and play by play for both.

[e=mc^2]

I play the standard Ur list, with MotM in the board to deal with all the 3c Threshold.

[Rood]

@Rodney Before my last tourney I switched out my Firespouts for Magus of the Moon, and in he first round I faced Merfolk. I got slaughtered. If you expect to face a lot of aggro I would think that Firespout would go in the MotM slot.

I have question about facing TES and ANT, as I expect to see a lot of it at the Winter Wonderland tourney. What do people board them against it, and how do you play against them?

Sideboarding strategies against TES

-2 Dreadnought
-1 Daze

+3 BEB
is normally how I go against them now. E-truth used to be good against them and still can be, but they rely on ETW alot less now.

ANT you normally want to bring in REBs instead of BEBs but the sideboarding strategy still remains the same for the most part.

The best way to beat these decks is just beat them down with Factories...don't really rely on too much else just control them and get in there with Factories. We run so much disruption that most of the time they can't really handle it.

[Atog]

Sideboarding strategies against TES

-2 Dreadnought
-1 Daze

+3 BEB
is normally how I go against them now. E-truth used to be good against them and still can be, but they rely on ETW alot less now.

ANT you normally want to bring in REBs instead of BEBs but the sideboarding strategy still remains the same for the most part.

The best way to beat these decks is just beat them down with Factories...don't really rely on too much else just control them and get in there with Factories. We run so much disruption that most of the time they can't really handle it.

Against TES we should safe counters for.. Ad Nauseam, Burning wish and Infernal Tutor, Orim's chant? Those take quite much resource at least if we won't get fast countertop online.

And against ANT i guess Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor and Mystical tutor? How about first turn LED? That enables to operate with IGG what we wont't want or should we just safe counters for that IGG?

[Bahamuth]

Against TES we should safe counters for.. Ad Nauseam, Burning wish and Infernal Tutor, Orim's chant? Those take quite much resource at least if we won't get fast countertop online.

And against ANT i guess Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor and Mystical tutor? How about first turn LED? That enables to operate with IGG what we wont't want or should we just safe counters for that IGG?

Your goal in this matchup is to drop a Counterbalance. They can barely win after you've dropped one. Aside from that, Standstill is a very strong turn 2 drop as well. Always counter the Chant, even if you don't have any other counters, because this will cut him off IGG.

Don't counter LED, except with Counterbalance (and be careful here if you have a top, keep mana open for other spells). Counter Infernal Tutor if the hand is empty. Counter Burning Wish if the TES player has 4 mana open and you don't have an answer to EtW. If his had is empty while playing Wish, counter it anyway. Always counter AdN of course. Mystical Tutor shouldn't be countered in my opinion, but it might actually be good sometimes, if you somehow manage to be certain he will be looking for his buisness spell.

[Atog]

Your goal in this matchup is to drop a Counterbalance. They can barely win after you've dropped one. Aside from that, Standstill is a very strong turn 2 drop as well. Always counter the Chant, even if you don't have any other counters, because this will cut him off IGG.

Don't counter LED, except with Counterbalance (and be careful here if you have a top, keep mana open for other spells). Counter Infernal Tutor if the hand is empty. Counter Burning Wish if the TES player has 4 mana open and you don't have an answer to EtW. If his had is empty while playing Wish, counter it anyway. Always counter AdN of course. Mystical Tutor shouldn't be countered in my opinion, but it might actually be good sometimes, if you somehow manage to be certain he will be looking for his buisness spell.

Thank you for good coverage and advices :) Just thinking that burning wish if i have Dreadnought in play, they can get shattering spree or something else answer. I haven't play more than five games against those decks so just trying to figure by decklists what is must-counter.

[Bahamuth]

Thank you for good coverage and advices :) Just thinking that burning wish if i have Dreadnought in play, they can get shattering spree or something else answer. I haven't play more than five games against those decks so just trying to figure by decklists what is must-counter.

That's true, but I still don't think it would be worth the counter then. If they are forced to waste buisness spells on your clock, you're in a good position anyway.

You can counter if your Dreadnought kills him next turn of course.

[e=mc^2]

Sideboarding strategies against TES

-2 Dreadnought
-1 Daze

+3 BEB
is normally how I go against them now. E-truth used to be good against them and still can be, but they rely on ETW alot less now.

ANT you normally want to bring in REBs instead of BEBs but the sideboarding strategy still remains the same for the most part.

The best way to beat these decks is just beat them down with Factories...don't really rely on too much else just control them and get in there with Factories. We run so much disruption that most of the time they can't really handle it.

Against ANT you would bring in REB's to counter their cantrips?

[J.V.]

Against ANT you would bring in REB's to counter their cantrips?

Yes exactly, stopping them from setting up is key against them since for the most part if you let them sculpt a god hand without CB/T They will just bust in your eyes even if you have 2-3 counters, so simply don't let them get the resources, also I have a slight disagreement with Rodney's Sideboarding plan:
Against TES:
-2 Trinket Mage
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
+3 Blue Elemental Blast
+1 Pithing Needle (For Vexing Shusher)

Against ANT
-1 Trinket Mage
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
+3 Red Elemental Blast

[klaus]

Sideboarding strategies against TES

-2 Dreadnought
-1 Daze
+3 BEB


Am I the only one who boards out 1 basic Island against combo and other shaz that doesn't disrupt your manabase at all?

Rood, as much as I respect your overall Dreadstill skills, I gotta say your boarding approach against TES is flawed.
You don't want to board out counters against super-fast combo and boarding out 2 of the spells that read "counter one relevant spell and I'll race him for sure" doesn't seem wise either.
Your approach is more suitable against FT, since you'll need your Stifles for their fetchlands (TES doesn't run any obviously) - the speed that you gain that way and the fact that FT needs more land to go off let's you get there via Factories, which imo are much worse against TES as our primary killcon.

My suggestion (UR DS VS. TES):
+3 BEB
-1 Island
-1 Standstill (you never want to drop it turn 2)
-1 Dreadnought (if you're running 4)/ -1 Trickbind (if you're running 3)

[Atog]

...
My suggestion (UR DS VS. TES):
+3 BEB
-1 Island
-1 Standstill (you never want to drop it turn 2)
-1 Dreadnought (if you're running 4)/ -1 Trickbind (if you're running 3)

Why you don't want to drop it turn 2? Because you want play nought or counterbalance on turn to or what..? And don't you think that trinket mage is too slow against TES? Like you said it's "super fast combo".

[Rood]

Am I the only one who boards out 1 basic Island against combo and other shaz that doesn't disrupt your manabase at all?

Rood, as much as I respect your overall Dreadstill skills, I gotta say your boarding approach against TES is flawed.
You don't want to board out counters against super-fast combo and boarding out 2 of the spells that read "counter one relevant spell and I'll race him for sure" doesn't seem wise either.
Your approach is more suitable against FT, since you'll need your Stifles for their fetchlands (TES doesn't run any obviously) - the speed that you gain that way and the fact that FT needs more land to go off let's you get there via Factories, which imo are much worse against TES as our primary killcon.

My suggestion (UR DS VS. TES):
+3 BEB
-1 Island
-1 Standstill (you never want to drop it turn 2)
-1 Dreadnought (if you're running 4)/ -1 Trickbind (if you're running 3)

Boarding out an Island is something I would never do, risking the chance of not drawing enough land and losing against TES is something I would never take the chance of doing. Standstill is still good against them, if anything it buys you time to sculp a god hand full of answers to stop them...I can't see boarding these out either. I think you don't want anymore then 2 Dreadnoughts against him, normally you're not willing to burn a Stifle on him because even if you could drop him I'd feel better beating with Factory and keeping the Stifle when they try to combo. There are situation where this changes, but most of the time I like to keep my Stifles/Trickbinds. I agree my approach probally wasn't optimal I think that

-2 Dreadnought
-1 Trinket Mage
+3 BEB
seems a bit better

[Bahamuth]

Boarding out an Island is something I would never do, risking the chance of not drawing enough land and losing against TES is something I would never take the chance of doing. Standstill is still good against them, if anything it buys you time to sculp a god hand full of answers to stop them...I can't see boarding these out either. I think you don't want anymore then 2 Dreadnoughts against him, normally you're not willing to burn a Stifle on him because even if you could drop him I'd feel better beating with Factory and keeping the Stifle when they try to combo. There are situation where this changes, but most of the time I like to keep my Stifles/Trickbinds. I agree my approach probally wasn't optimal I think that

-2 Dreadnought
-1 Trinket Mage
+3 BEB
seems a bit better

Saving Stifle against both TES and ANT is far from as good as you might think. As both TES and ANT have the option of going for Ad Nauseam, the Stifle you keep will not be usefull at all in stopping the AdN. If the AdN resolves, the combo player should always cast more protection before trying the Tendrils. Especially ANT is very good at that.

Dropping a turn 2 Dreadnought might seem risky, but, again especially against ANT, both your Spell Snare and Stifle aren't that good at all. I think it will be worth it to play a turn 2 Dreadnought most of the time on the play. Chopping 12 life away makes their AdN much much worse.

[Enigma]

In UGR or UGWr build, I take off Goyfs for 3x REB's to counter mysticals.

[klaus]

Boarding out an Island is something I would never do, risking the chance of not drawing enough land and losing against TES is something I would never take the chance of doing. Standstill is still good against them, if anything it buys you time to sculp a god hand full of answers to stop them...I can't see boarding these out either. I think you don't want anymore then 2 Dreadnoughts against him, normally you're not willing to burn a Stifle on him because even if you could drop him I'd feel better beating with Factory and keeping the Stifle when they try to combo. There are situation where this changes, but most of the time I like to keep my Stifles/Trickbinds. I agree my approach probally wasn't optimal I think that
seems a bit better

Seconding Bahamuth:
Stifle/Trickbind are really bad against no-fetchlands-combo.dec. (beyond supporting Dreadnought)

Again, the problem with Factory as your killcon is that it requires you to tap 2 lands for each attack and usually I want at least 2 lands for CB actions plus one land for Spell Snare, BS and what not.

My general strategy against fast combo, and I've made exclusively positive experiences with it, is:
- keep a and with FOW or Daze (mull to 5 if neccessary)
- counter relevant stuff
- assemble CB+Top (which is why T. Mage is still OK.)
- beat down with whatever
-----
1-2 REB's are an option if you see some Ponders G1 (Brainstorm, Mystical are always worthy targets), Pact of Negation has also to be accounted for, and progressive ANT lists have adopted Spell Snares (emidln style)
Just thinking.
---

@Atog:
CB is the only spell I'd be willing to tap for on turn 2, unless your opponent has mulled to 4 :eyebrow: .

[J.V.]

In UGR or UGWr build, I take off Goyfs for 3x REB's to counter mysticals.
Siding out Dreadnoughts seems significantly better so you can use your Stifles on Fetches/Storm. Also don't you run swords? If so they should be coming out.

[Bahamuth]

I don't understand why you just don't board out 3 Trinket Mage. What's it going to do? Find Explosives? Certainly not against ANT, and TES will only attempt an EtW turn 1 or maybe 2, in which case the Mage is too slow.

[Atog]

I don't understand why you just don't board out 3 Trinket Mage. What's it going to do? Find Explosives? Certainly not against ANT, and TES will only attempt an EtW turn 1 or maybe 2, in which case the Mage is too slow.

It can be pitched to FoW just when you don't need it. And you don't want to leave all four noughts in against deck you can use your stifles / trickbinds agaist then efficiently than usual. Also nought is a dead card in hand if you spend your stifles and trickbinds to tendrils or EtW. You know that too :)

[Bahamuth]

It can be pitched to FoW just when you don't need it. And you don't want to leave all four noughts in against deck you can use your stifles / trickbinds agaist then efficiently than usual. Also nought is a dead card in hand if you spend your stifles and trickbinds to tendrils or EtW. You know that too :)

If you manage to spend your Stifles on Tendrils or EtW, you already won, in which case it doesn't matter if you have a dead card in hand. I can see why you don't want to leave 4 Dreadnought in, but I'd not board out more than one then.

Pitching to FoW is hardly an argument, since your entire deck does that. Leaving in cards just because they pitch to FoW is never a good idea. Also, you will barely ever need them, and when you do, chances are he's too slow.

[J.V.]

Pitching to FoW is hardly an argument, since your entire deck does that. Leaving in cards just because they pitch to FoW is never a good idea. Also, you will barely ever need them, and when you do, chances are he's too slow.

I have to completely disagree since every other blue card in your deck is good against storm and being able to save them is a big deal, Also something that your not giving him credit for is that he grabs top in this matchup. If you land CB/T you are going to win like 90% of the time.

[e=mc^2]

The biggest problem I have with combo is chant. I believe the only counter in the deck that can handle it is FoW. So, unless you have a Counterbalance out all they have to do is Duress the FoW or play multiple chants.

[Enigma]

Siding out Dreadnoughts seems significantly better so you can use your Stifles on Fetches/Storm. Also don't you run swords? If so they should be coming out.

The swords are now in SB. They've replaced by Spell snares.

About the Dreadnought: I find he's good against ANT because he puts pressure on them to combo quickly and not necessarily have all their disrupts cards.

[Irish_Mafia]

Alright so I played Dreadstill at the WW event. I played a basic list with a tiny change in the sb due to not having Echoing Truth (lol..). So I ended up going 4-3 fail.. I went 4-1 losing to Lam and his Canadian Thresh deck. And the going 0-2 to Di's Elf Survival and some guys GBW Survival. Although the Elf Survival was close. Anyone got a strategy vs. them I had never played against a survival deck before.. And also Trinket Mage is the MVP in this deck by far.

[Whit3 Ghost]

So I also played Dreadstill at the Winter Wonderland to a disappointing 4-3 finish after starting out 3-0. My first hand of the tournament had the turn 2 Naught with Force backup. However, it was all downhill from there, as I only saw one more hand involving a turn 2 Naught. I beat Goblins, UGb Thresh, Tendrils and RG Beats, losing to the Tendrils list that T8ed, the 4c Counterbalance deck and Counterslivers. I don't think the Ur list has enough removal, and Naught felt fragile as hell for most of the day.

[Irish_Mafia]

So I also played Dreadstill at the Winter Wonderland to a disappointing 4-3 finish after starting out 3-0. My first hand of the tournament had the turn 2 Naught with Force backup. However, it was all downhill from there, as I only saw one more hand involving a turn 2 Naught. I beat Goblins, UGb Thresh, Tendrils and RG Beats, losing to the Tendrils list that T8ed, the 4c Counterbalance deck and Counterslivers. I don't think the Ur list has enough removal, and Naught felt fragile as hell for most of the day.

What color would you suggest for removal, would you go white or black?

[Omega]

White because STP and enlightened tutor are superior cards to other color

E.Tutor is a very interesting addition because it helps the deck getting the missing CB/top combo card. It can also fetch landstill, dreadnought and/or any other artifact enchant from the deck

Robert

[Whit3 Ghost]

What color would you suggest for removal, would you go white or black?
I have no idea. I don't think I'm going to be playing the deck seriously for the next while, but I'd have to think that Swords is going to be your best option.

[Irish_Mafia]

I have no idea. I don't think I'm going to be playing the deck seriously for the next while, but I'd have to think that Swords is going to be your best option.

Yeah. I don't know what I'm gonna do haha. I love this deck and all but idk yet.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

I personally love enlightened tutor in this deck for several reasons. First of all, as mentioned before, it can grab either piece of the countertop combo. It can also grab dreadnought turn one at EoT so that you can play a turn 2 nought. Finally, it lets you run a toolbox either sideboard or mainboard (or both). Some things it can grab that trinket mage can't that I like are crucible, serenity, oblivion ring and lightning greaves. It also grabs E. Explosives turn 1 in case of an early Empty the Warrens. I just think that trinket mage is too slow. I know E. tutor gives you card disadvantage, but I think it is still worth it.

[Atog]

I personally love enlightened tutor in this deck for several reasons. First of all, as mentioned before, it can grab either piece of the countertop combo. It can also grab dreadnought turn one at EoT so that you can play a turn 2 nought. Finally, it lets you run a toolbox either sideboard or mainboard (or both).Some things it can grab that trinket mage can't that I like are crucible, serenity, oblivion ring and lightning greaves. It also grabs E. Explosives turn 1 in case of an early Empty the Warrens. I just think that trinket mage is too slow. I know E. tutor gives you card disadvantage, but I think it is still worth it.

Just curious, what your list look like? That e.tutor just seems unnecessary to me, because trinket mage does exact same thing, just little slower but still doing it. We have plenty of counters to slow opponent to turn three or so on, when we can play that Trinket mage what also block and attack what e.tutor doesn't do. That maybe be bad argument but it's fact. And that crusible, what is that for? If you wanna ruin opponents manabase that Magus of the moon will be fine if not the best on that job. Just ask Roodmistah. EtW, can be denyed by stifle or/and trickbind so that won't be a huge problem.

[Irish_Mafia]

What do you guys think about Fire//Ice main and Magus of the Moon sb? I'm thinking I like fire//ice for the fact it can slow people down on a land screw and help against tombstalker and such. Plus fire can help with spot removal with mishra's or just burn and what not/ I haven't tested yet but I def. am going to.

[psu42]

i play Ugr dreadstill with goyfs main

i play magus side specifically for 3/4 color decks with like 1 basic land, i side in magus basically for the goyfs and it works well

fire/ice is amazing maindeck, i currently run 3...it taps down creatures, it fries merfolk, goblins, slivers, elves, etc, it pitches to fow, it is quite a nice utility card

[zuzy]

i play Ugr dreadstill with goyfs main

i play magus side specifically for 3/4 color decks with like 1 basic land, i side in magus basically for the goyfs and it works well

fire/ice is amazing maindeck, i currently run 3...it taps down creatures, it fries merfolk, goblins, slivers, elves, etc, it pitches to fow, it is quite a nice utility card

Can you write down you decklist + SB? I really like the Goyfs in main. I play it the same, but the Fire/Ice idea is also fine. But what for?
Thanx
ZUZY

Hallo all,

What is better version for Dreadstill. With splash for Green for Tarmogoyf or without splash and with +3x Spell Snare and +1x Trickbind?

Thank you
ZUZY

[Jules]

Hey,
i'm going to play the following list on a Tournament next sunday...

creatures

3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

instant

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

enchantment

3 counterbalance
4 Standstill

artifact

2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top

land

3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland


Sideboard:

3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Firespout

What is your Boarding Strategy against Goyf Sligh, Threshold, Team America and Landstill. What in what out?

[zuzy]

Hallo,

If you will play just 3x Dradnoughts and 2x Trinket Mage, that you will have problems to play Dread/Stifle really fast. That is what you want.

Than the Spell Snare is good card, but you have to have 1 mana free.

I am playin the almost same version, but like:

- 3x Spell Snare
+ 1x Dreadnought
+ 1x Trinket Mage
+ 1x Land - Island or Tropical

Land drop every turn is necessary and sometimes even with 21 lands it is problem.

SB: I had problems with Goblins. And I had 2x Pyroclasm and 1x Firespount. On the other side I have never sided in the Krosan Grips. If you want to play the version with Spell Snares, you should be able to counter the Conterbalance.

Than the Pyroclasm is better, that Firespout. It WILL happened to you, that you will not have 3 mana to play Firespount. It seems better, but you will be tapped by Rishadan Port and will have problems to get 3rd mana.

My SB is now:

3x REB
3x BEB
2x Pithing Needle - Vial, Port, Grindstone, Seismic Assault...
2x Krosan Grip - to have something against CB. I am not playing the Spell Snares
2x Pyroclasm
1x Firespount
2x Tormod´s Crypt

ZUZY

[Enigma]

What you guys do against a resolved Tombstalker? I wouldn't play Dreadstill without a Bounce or any removal.

I really think it's lacking in your build. Maybe in the Grip's or the Needle's spots, put Echoing truth, and so you will be able to side them against TA. Combined with Tormod's, it can slow them a lot, especially in the mid/late game because they can't fill the graveyard quickly.

PM

[J.V.]

What you guys do against a resolved Tombstalker? I wouldn't play Dreadstill without a Bounce or any removal.

Submerge is the new hotness, haven't you heard?

[URABAHN]

What you guys do against a resolved Tombstalker? I wouldn't play Dreadstill without a Bounce or any removal.

I really think it's lacking in your build. Maybe in the Grip's or the Needle's spots, put Echoing truth, and so you will be able to side them against TA. Combined with Tormod's, it can slow them a lot, especially in the mid/late game because they can't fill the graveyard quickly.

PM

I agree with JV, Submerge seems awful good, seems good in some mirror matches as well, if they're running 'goyf as well as 'nought. Are we at the point where Submerge might be pretty good as a 4x in the SB?

[AngryTroll]

Where would you fit in a playset of Submerges? It doesn't hit Dreadnaughts, and sometimes won't even hit Tombstalkers. Swords to Plowshares, Wipe Away, Rushing River, Threads of Disloyalty, and Echoing Truth all seem like more flexible (if less cool) options. If you had all the space in the world, it'd be neat to have available, but with a cramped sideboard, I'll take the more flexible removal over the more powerful but narrow removal.

[J.V.]

The only matchup that runs Tombstalker that you care about is Team America and it WILL hit tombstalker against them. As for Dreadnought, that may be true, but the mirror often comes down to Mishra's Factory anyways...

Anyways I'm not sure if we really need 4 in the board, I'm currently running 3. This is my Current board:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Submerge
2 Firespout
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle

[psu42]

Submerge is somewhat nice, but I don't think it is as flexible as echoing truth.

Truth also can get tokens against ichorid or combo when it matters and is also useful for bouncing opposing multiples of goyf and then counterbalancing them when they are replayed.

I also run Magus sideboard for 3+ color decks and Team America which generally only runs 1 basic and if they don't see it coming, or even if they do, if it resolves you generally can hold on and win.

[Rood]

It needs more testing to be proved a solid choice in the sideboard, but Submerge definetally seems powerful given the rise of Tombcaver and whatnot. I'm just not sold on it yet though, Echoing Truth seems to fill the role better.

[Enigma]

Submerge is the new hotness, haven't you heard?

Yes i did. I'm running it in Canadian Trash and it is really good.

[J.V.]

Yes i did. I'm running it in Canadian Trash and it is really good.

Yup. That's where the idea came from.

[BKclassic]

Yup. That's where the idea came from.

Are you sure the red splash is worth it for just Firespout? 2 more basic Islands would help solidify the mana base, helping against other Stifle/Wasteland strategies. You could make the Firespout into either the 2 Echoing Truth people seem to want, or possibly 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Crucible. Another Needle would help shore up the Gobos match up, and Crucible is obviously great against control.

Also, with that SB, how would you board against an average Survival deck? Mostly, it seems like Submerge should come in, but I can't imagine what I should bring out for it.

[The_Red_Panda]

Are you sure the red splash is worth it for just Firespout? 2 more basic Islands would help solidify the mana base, helping against other Stifle/Wasteland strategies. You could make the Firespout into either the 2 Echoing Truth people seem to want, or possibly 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Crucible. Another Needle would help shore up the Gobos match up, and Crucible is obviously great against control.


Yes. You need firespout against speed aggro decks, like Elves! or Goblins. The fact that it comes in against dragon stompy to clear moon magi, RPD, and un-Hellbent Gathan Raiders is just an added bonus.

The red splash consists for me of two red duals, and swapping those to basics really wont make the manabase THAT much more consistent.

[Irish_Mafia]

Are you sure the red splash is worth it for just Firespout? 2 more basic Islands would help solidify the mana base, helping against other Stifle/Wasteland strategies. You could make the Firespout into either the 2 Echoing Truth people seem to want, or possibly 1 Pithing Needle and 1 Crucible. Another Needle would help shore up the Gobos match up, and Crucible is obviously great against control.

Also, with that SB, how would you board against an average Survival deck? Mostly, it seems like Submerge should come in, but I can't imagine what I should bring out for it.

I first started out with the same thoughts as you. I was playing no fetchies/duals. And i played back to basics, but the fact is the reason you play red spash is to exponentially improve some match ups.

[URABAHN]

I first started out with the same thoughts as you. I was playing no fetchies/duals. And i played back to basics, but the fact is the reason you play red spash is to exponentially improve some match ups.

Exponentially? Well, I'm all ears, then! What matchups do the red splash improve and why?

[zuzy]

Hallo,

Regarding my SB options I choose.

I had 2x Echoing Truth in my SB at my last tournament. And I have never sided them in. There was no need for that. I had it there instead of 2x T. Crypt. I knew, that there will be no ichorid.

Now I have 4x "free" spots there. 2x Krosan Grip and 2x T. Crypt. In the Larger tournaments, I WANT to have the T.Crypts there.

The Krosan Grip is there mainly for Couterbalance, which is quite played here. But it´s spot can be used also for 2x Echoing Truth. It is more easy to counter with Counterbalance, but it can target "everything".

RED COLOUR IN MD:

I have Red colour in MD because of mass removal - 2xPyroclasm and 1x Firespount + 3x REB. It is really perfect card. Against a lot of decks. Almost "every" deck play blue....

ZUZY

[BKclassic]

Yes. You need firespout against speed aggro decks, like Elves! or Goblins. The fact that it comes in against dragon stompy to clear moon magi, RPD, and un-Hellbent Gathan Raiders is just an added bonus.

The red splash consists for me of two red duals, and swapping those to basics really wont make the manabase THAT much more consistent.

Well, Rood has cut them from his board. If he can do it, I feel like we should be able to was well, and we even have Tarmogoyf.

[Rood]

Yeah I had put them back in again just to see if it changes anything but I tested against Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk. Everytime I boarded in all 3 Clasms and they didn't do anything for me so they're staying out permanently most likely.

[XTermina11nvasionX]

Yeah I had put them back in again just to see if it changes anything but I tested against Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk. Everytime I boarded in all 3 Clasms and they didn't do anything for me so they're staying out permanently most likely.

And why should they? Dropping a 12/12 trampling creature is what makes the deck so fun to play against little men. I can, however, see Merfolk being annoying with countermagic pre-board, but that should be the least of your worries. Trinket Mage solves all of your problems with Explosives or anything else you can find (like a 12/12) that can thrash an opponent.

And Stifles sometimes against Goblins tend to come out quicker from your hand than you'd like, I'm assuming. After all, the C.I.P. effects in Goblins are quite powerful and theres no reason to think you wouldn't consider Stifling a turn one Lackey trigger when you have Factory in hand and an Island out and you're on the draw. Stifles are just that huge.

[The_Red_Panda]

And why should they? Dropping a 12/12 trampling creature is what makes the deck so fun to play against little men. I can, however, see Merfolk being annoying with countermagic pre-board, but that should be the least of your worries. Trinket Mage solves all of your problems with Explosives or anything else you can find (like a 12/12) that can thrash an opponent.




Do not assume you get dreadnought every game. The games you have him he's a house against speed aggro, but you simply do not draw stifle and nought every hand. In those situations, where you have to dig for three or even four turns in order to get the nought, it's very possible for speedy aggro to stomp you into the ground. I personally have played several games against elves, and can say from experience that if you don't have the turn-two nought-combo, you're not going to be able to race them. They dump their hand all over the table every game by turn two (three at the latest) casting at least 2-3 spells on the second turn. You can't just sit back and counter all of that, or at least my Ugr version cant. In those cases, they're going to squish you.

While trinket mage seems attractive as a way to find explosives or a nought, remember that it comes down on turn three, and then whatever you found comes down on turn four. This can be too little too late.



Yeah I had put them back in again just to see if it changes anything but I tested against Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk. Everytime I boarded in all 3 Clasms and they didn't do anything for me so they're staying out permanently most likely.

I'd love to hear the specifics here. Did you draw into them consistently? Was the damage from clasm not enough, or was it that it didn't clear enough creatures? I'd like to hear how these games panned out.

Thank,

TheRedPanda

[Jedi Knight]

Pyroclasm can get you to some major blow out games against some decks!

[zuzy]

Yeah I had put them back in again just to see if it changes anything but I tested against Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk. Everytime I boarded in all 3 Clasms and they didn't do anything for me so they're staying out permanently most likely.

Hallo,

Cay tell me more about that? I had the feeling, that the DMG from Pyroclasm aren´t enought. Because of some +1/+1 efects from Slivers, Merfolks and so on. That is why I have Firesoupt in the SB.

But Pyroclasm helped me all the time well. Every time, when there is a trade at least 1 for 2. Is really good. The more you trade this 1 card for more of your oponnents, the better.

My problem was, that I mis-sideboarded in the G2 against Goblins. I sided 3x BEB, 2x Pyro, 1x Firespout, 2x Pithing Needle for 4x Standstill, 4x Coutnerbalance.

If I will sided out 4x Standstill and 4x FoW, than it will be much better. The game went really long and the Counterbalance will win me the game. It was like TopDeck mode. The Goblins were RW for SB cards - Orims Chant, Swords, Seal of Cleansing. Swords and Seals can be easily coutnered by Counterbalance without loosing the 2nd card, like with FoW.

ZUZY

ZUZY

[deadlock]

Its rather uncommon that both players go into topdeck mode in my expierence. I would never side out the cards you mentioned. Look at this boarding plan and let me know what you think.

On the play:
-3 CB (try to setup an early Nought OR Standstill. CB is iffy, because they always can slip through something)
-2 EE (too many different casting costs)
-2 Spell Snare (needed room for better cards)
+3 BEB
+2 Needle
+2 Pyroclasm / Firespout

On the draw:
-3 CB
-4 Daze
+3 BEB
+2 Needle
+2 Pyroclasm / Firespout
(-1 EE / +1 Firespout)
I wouldnt go to three Clasm effects overall

If you dont run Clasm effects i would keep the Spell Snares to hit Warrens Weirding, Tin Street and Piledriver. If you expect Chalice then you better keep the EE's in ofc.

[zuzy]

Its rather uncommon that both players go into topdeck mode in my expierence. I would never side out the cards you mentioned. Look at this boarding plan and let me know what you think.

On the play:
-3 CB (try to setup an early Nought OR Standstill. CB is iffy, because they always can slip through something)
-2 EE (too many different casting costs)
-2 Spell Snare (needed room for better cards)
+3 BEB
+2 Needle
+2 Pyroclasm / Firespout

On the draw:
-3 CB
-4 Daze
+3 BEB
+2 Needle
+2 Pyroclasm / Firespout
(-1 EE / +1 Firespout)
I wouldnt go to three Clasm effects overall

If you dont run Clasm effects i would keep the Spell Snares to hit Warrens Weirding, Tin Street and Piledriver. If you expect Chalice then you better keep the EE's in ofc.

I am not sure, if you know that my SB is looking like this:

3x BEB
3x REB
2x Pyroclasm
1x Firespout
2x Tormods Crypt
2x Krosan Grip
2x Pithing Needle

About your SB Ideas:

I am almost always SB out standstill, because they have early Aether Vial or Lackey. After this is is really hard to play Standstill, with them on the board.

Daze seems also week to me, but it can stop early threads.

To be honest I didn´t play that much games against the Goblins. So I don´t know if my SB plans are good.

ZUZY

[Atog]

I am not sure, if you know that my SB is looking like this:

3x BEB
3x REB
2x Pyroclasm
1x Firespout
2x Tormods Crypt
2x Krosan Grip
2x Pithing Needle

About your SB Ideas:

I am almost always SB out standstill, because they have early Aether Vial or Lackey. After this is is really hard to play Standstill, with them on the board.

Daze seems also week to me, but it can stop early threads.

To be honest I didn´t play that much games against the Goblins. So I don´t know if my SB plans are good.

ZUZY
Siding FoW out in any case is BAD. Never ever don't side them out. What i see from deadlock's post that seems quite good plan against goblins.

Strange but i have been losing more against goblins than merfolks :E Some said that merfolks should be worst matchup of tribal decks. But dunno then..
I played today against merfolks (mono-u version) and games went 6-4 for my favor. I could win couple games but i was so freezed. Those games were played without sideboard btw.. Pyroclasm could shine there if we would use sideboards, maybe next time. Only card what did cause i some problems was suprise, suprise Loa. When that don't hit table or i have nought in play it was a win for me.

[deadlock]

Goblins can be troublesome, but you wont face them too often - speaking of the UR build. I am curious, with Tarmogoyf they should be quite manageable, arent they?

Placey 2nd in a small local tournament today, i felt quite confident with the UR build.

My question is, how to board correctly against Aggro Loam (consider the standard sideboard, with some numbers changed).
First off, how good is Counterbalance? They have quite some three drops, so its power is diminished i suppose.
If so i would go for something like this:
On the play:
-3 CB
-1 Trickbind
-1 Spell Snare
-3 Spell Snare
+3 BEB
+2 Relic

On the draw:
-2 Daze
-3 CB
+3 BEB
+2 Relic

On the other hand if you mange to set the CB up with a two drop on the top you should be in a good position.
In this case the boarding plan for me would look like:
Play:
-1 Trickbind
-3 Spell Snare
+2 BEB
+2 Relic

Draw:
-4 Daze
-1 Trickbind
+3 BEB
+2 Relic

Some builds run Solitary Confiment, a couple of Echoing Truths should come handy here.
Also i thought about siding out one Trinket Mage too, but considering their two drops and more importantly their COTV and Moxen, i have the feeling that i need the maximum number of EE.

BTW: If someone is interested in testing matchups, drop a PM - i really want to squeeze the last bit out of this. :eyebrow:

[Atog]

Goblins can be troublesome, but you wont face them too often - speaking of the UR build. I am curious, with Tarmogoyf they should be quite manageable, arent they?

Placey 2nd in a small local tournament today, i felt quite confident with the UR build.

My question is, how to board correctly against Aggro Loam (consider the standard sideboard, with some numbers changed).
First off, how good is Counterbalance? They have quite some three drops, so its power is diminished i suppose.
If so i would go for something like this:
On the play:
-3 CB
-1 Trickbind
-1 Spell Snare
-3 Spell Snare
+3 BEB
+2 Relic

On the draw:
-2 Daze
-3 CB
+3 BEB
+2 Relic

On the other hand if you mange to set the CB up with a two drop on the top you should be in a good position.
In this case the boarding plan for me would look like:
Play:
-1 Trickbind
-3 Spell Snare
+2 BEB
+2 Relic

Draw:
-4 Daze
-1 Trickbind
+3 BEB
+2 Relic

Some builds run Solitary Confiment, a couple of Echoing Truths should come handy here.
Also i thought about siding out one Trinket Mage too, but considering their two drops and more importantly their COTV and Moxen, i have the feeling that i need the maximum number of EE.

BTW: If someone is interested in testing matchups, drop a PM - i really want to squeeze the last bit out of this. :eyebrow:

I would side out Standstills against that loam, they can just discard lands and cycle them all day long. So i would side like this:

Out:
-4x Standstill
-2x EE
-4x Daze

In:
2x Echoing Truth
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Pithing Needle

Im not sure is this correct plan, but im quite convidence that standstills should take out in any case. Counterbalance is needed in because if you get C/B working, you can counter that loam always and burning wish. Just thinked that needle can be usefull if you see Seismic Assault.

[BKclassic]

I would side out Standstills against that loam, they can just discard lands and cycle them all day long. So i would side like this:

Out:
-4x Standstill
-2x EE
-4x Daze

In:
2x Echoing Truth
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Pithing Needle

Im not sure is this correct plan, but im quite convidence that standstills should take out in any case. Counterbalance is needed in because if you get C/B working, you can counter that loam always and burning wish. Just thinked that needle can be usefull if you see Seismic Assault.

You definately don't want to take out Engineered Explosives unless you are sure they don't have Chalice of the Void.

I don't think Standstill is so bad against them, as long as you have a few threats down. They don't have too many answers to Naught so its obviously a beating with it, but a Factory and a Mage should get you some mileage, too. During the Source tourney, Rood did -1 Naught, -1 Standstill, -2 Daze for +2 BEB, +2 Crypt. Seems pretty solid to me.

[Atog]

You definately don't want to take out Engineered Explosives unless you are sure they don't have Chalice of the Void.

I don't think Standstill is so bad against them, as long as you have a few threats down. During the Source tourney, Rood did -1 Naught, -1 Standstill, -2 Daze for +2 BEB, +2 Crypt. Seems pretty solid to me.

Ah, i forget that chalice. You are right EE remains..

[deadlock]

Thanks for the quick answers.

Why do people want to cut the Standstills so often? Turn two Standstill is one of the 'three' broken openers this deck does.

Roods plan looks good concerning the Dazes (even on the play), but i cant decide between two of these three cards (Nought, Standstill, Trickbind).
Not that one card is that important.

I thought about adding Submerge to the board, but there seems to be not enough room both in the board and in a boarding scenario. Take this matchup for instance, we can side up to three BEBs, Relic/ Tormods and even Truth against Confiment if they run it. Thats usually 2-6 slots + the Truths in some cases. i dont see to board additional cards. In the TA its similar..

[FoolofaTook]

Why do people want to cut the Standstills so often? Turn two Standstill is one of the 'three' broken openers this deck does.

Standstill is a very situational play. There are a lot of matchups where having Standstill in the opening hand is a break even event for you. Against those decks Standstill becomes an easy sideout for an option that is clearly superior in the matchup.

A lot of players also prefer to hold Standstill until they're sure they know what the opponent is playing. So the broken opener isn't really that unless you're willing to take a risk and lay it out semi-blind.

[deadlock]

I wasnt implying that i put it down blindly, but the matchups were it isnt good are quite few, namely Ichorid, Landstill and the mirrormatch.
Its feasible to side out a single copy in some other matchups, i use the follwing system to determine this:

Against decks that can potentially create a stronger hand than you, even if they have to break the Still at the some point.
For example a FTDD build that builds a hand with like 3-4 Chants/ Duress.
In this case it seems risky to put the Still down on turn two with no threat (in this case CB, Mishras, Trinket).
So you need some sort of threat before you can put it down to prevent this.

Another example was my round three enemy today playing Ugr Dreadstill, he didnt know what i was playing and put down a Standstill on turn two. We drawed for a while before he gets a factory online.
After a couple rounds of beats i breaked the Still at the end of his turn with a Brainstorm. (he had to discard 4 cards).
In my turn i startet to deploy threats in form of 2 CB both countered, but eating nearly his whole hand in the process. I managed to put down a Top and answered his last card - a Tarmo with an Explosives before dropping a Nought, which he couldnt answer..

To summarize i think i got a quite good grip on the card, so discussing sideboard choices and strategys would be more productive.

[Mantis]

Last night I tested about 15 games in total between pre and post board Goblins vs. Dreadstill. I played Goblins, my friend played UR Dreadstill, my friend played a version with Ponder, which helped him a lot resulting in like one unkeepable hand all night and a lot of quick Noughts. Ponder is amazing for DS, I would advise running that as a 4-of. If you are wondering about just how good Ponder is in Legacy I would advise you to read this: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/16926_So_Many_Insane_Plays_A_Next_Level_Legacy_Tournament_Report_Top_4_Split.html.
If anyone is interested this is how the games against Vial Goblins (GO) play out:

Preboard; a couple of things can happen.
GO drops Vial/Lackey and will likely proceed the game if left unanwsered.
GO drops Vial/Lackey but DS will answer it, then proceed to win the game with a quick Nought or Stifles and Wastes for GO lands.
DS drops a quick Nought and protects it to victory.
DS fails to draw into Nought, GO plays a ton red men and stomp DS.

As you can see, two major factors determine the outcome of the game those are Vial/Lackey for GO and Stifle and to lesser extent Dreadnought for DS. Another important factor is if GO is able to make all of it's land drops, a 2 fetchland hand + Piledriver + some more expensive spells is horrible against DS but otherwise pretty solid against most of the decks. Also, you can allow one Piledriver to hit the board as long as you can stop anything else coming out.

Preboard we came to about 6-4 in Dreadstills favor (I'm not 100% sure).

Postboard is a whole different animal. GO is the clear favorite afterwards thanks to DS not being able to stop Krosan Grip. Krosan Grip > DS, if GO plays RB or Mono R you should be able to take the match but with Krosan Grip you are in for a tough fight. We ended up going 4-1 or something in GO favor postboard. Pyroclasm didn't help all that much for DS, I think you could easily cut it. I do think some EE's would help to stop Vial. Needle was horrible for DS, it helped once stopping a Vial but GO didn't need Vial that game and even had Tin Street to nuke the Needle.

Goyfs would help DS, especially postboard, where DS just can not rely on Dreadnought. UR just might want to run a Tropical in the mainboard and then side in some Goyfs. Trop mainboard would also allow you to set EE to 3 which could be relevant sometimes.
Pyroclasm was pretty useless, as Goblins can easily recover from it thanks to Siege Gang and Ringleader.

So the conclusion in terms of who is the favorite is that I think GO is the favorite if it can bring in Krosan Grip. If it doesn't splash G, DS is the definite favorite.

[Atog]

Last night I tested about 15 games in total between pre and post board Goblins vs. Dreadstill. I played Goblins, my friend played UR Dreadstill, my friend played a version with Ponder, which helped him a lot resulting in like one unkeepable hand all night and a lot of quick Noughts. Ponder is amazing for DS, I would advise running that as a 4-of. If you are wondering about just how good Ponder is in Legacy I would advise you to read this: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/16926_So_Many_Insane_Plays_A_Next_Level_Legacy_Tournament_Report_Top_4_Split.html.
If anyone is interested this is how the games against Vial Goblins (GO) play out:

Preboard; a couple of things can happen.
GO drops Vial/Lackey and will likely proceed the game if left unanwsered.
GO drops Vial/Lackey but DS will answer it, then proceed to win the game with a quick Nought or Stifles and Wastes for GO lands.
DS drops a quick Nought and protects it to victory.
DS fails to draw into Nought, GO plays a ton red men and stomp DS.

As you can see, two major factors determine the outcome of the game those are Vial/Lackey for GO and Stifle and to lesser extent Dreadnought for DS. Another important factor is if GO is able to make all of it's land drops, a 2 fetchland hand + Piledriver + some more expensive spells is horrible against DS but otherwise pretty solid against most of the decks. Also, you can allow one Piledriver to hit the board as long as you can stop anything else coming out.

Preboard we came to about 6-4 in Dreadstills favor (I'm not 100% sure).

Postboard is a whole different animal. GO is the clear favorite afterwards thanks to DS not being able to stop Krosan Grip. Krosan Grip > DS, if GO plays RB or Mono R you should be able to take the match but with Krosan Grip you are in for a tough fight. We ended up going 4-1 or something in GO favor postboard. Pyroclasm didn't help all that much for DS, I think you could easily cut it. I do think some EE's would help to stop Vial. Needle was horrible for DS, it helped once stopping a Vial but GO didn't need Vial that game and even had Tin Street to nuke the Needle.

Goyfs would help DS, especially postboard, where DS just can not rely on Dreadnought. UR just might want to run a Tropical in the mainboard and then side in some Goyfs. Trop mainboard would also allow you to set EE to 3 which could be relevant sometimes.
Pyroclasm was pretty useless, as Goblins can easily recover from it thanks to Siege Gang and Ringleader.

So the conclusion in terms of who is the favorite is that I think GO is the favorite if it can bring in Krosan Grip. If it doesn't splash G, DS is the definite favorite.

About those Tin Street Hooligan and Krosan grip, they both can quite easy be stopped atleast TSH. It's cop ability can be stiflet, trickbinded or you simply just counter it. And that grip, that is little bigger problem, but if you can cut Goblin player to fetch taiga or wasteland them and then playing that nought you will be safe for a moment. Maybe that long you win by nought. Yet still, if you managed to ged C/B and left Trinket mage on top of your library on YOUR OWN TURN when opponent has no mana to cast grip.

[Mantis]

About those Tin Street Hooligan and Krosan grip, they both can quite easy be stopped atleast TSH. It's cop ability can be stiflet, trickbinded or you simply just counter it. And that grip, that is little bigger problem, but if you can cut Goblin player to fetch taiga or wasteland them and then playing that nought you will be safe for a moment. Maybe that long you win by nought. Yet still, if you managed to ged C/B and left Trinket mage on top of your library on YOUR OWN TURN when opponent has no mana to cast grip.
He boarded out his Counterbalance. I've always thought it was stupid to leave Counterbalance in against GO, but after tonight I'm not 100% sure that statement holds truth. I had the feeling that CB was pretty good at protecting Dreadnought especially from Weirding and TSH. My friend rarely had Trinket Mage on top when he set up Counterbalance as he only played 2.

Tin Street Hooligan isn't really that big of problem for DS I know, that's why DS is favored pre board where GO only has Weirdings and TSH to deal with Dreadnought.

The best advice I can give any DS player is to play Ponder. Having Ponder + Brainstorm/Fetch is just gravy. I am on the point where I just want to drop Goblins so I can play 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm.

[deadlock]

The bigger question is, what did you cut for Ponder? I asume a combination of land and business, which is both unaceptable.
The mainboard of Ur is perfectly fine, i wouldnt cut anything especially for such a clumsy card like ponder.

Again about Goblins, there games were you just get blown out. For example if they hold two Lackeys or something like this, especially on the draw - were Daze cant be fully utilized.
I made my peace with this matchup and just keep practicing.
Also i disagree with Pyroclasm being 'bad' (it might be uneeded / doesnt improve the matchup by a large margin).
It answers the lackey even on the draw and comes handy if they break a Still with a huge hand.

Concerning CB in this matchup, of course setting up a CB and then use it to protect your Nought is nice, but in my expierence there is no time for this.
Also please tell me what do you want to side out if the Balances being kept.

Needle is good, but probaly cut be cut to a one-of like Rood suggested - in my meta there is a bunch of Affinity and maybe even Painter decks so it would need a good replacement. I am thinking about the 4th Counterbalance in the board to get it more reliable against ANT.

[Mantis]

Also i disagree with Pyroclasm being 'bad' (it might be uneeded / doesnt improve the matchup by a large margin).
It answers the lackey even on the draw and comes handy if they break a Still with a huge hand.

I never said Pyroclasm was bad. In fact I said it didn't help much and that based on those games I could see an argument for cutting it. At least thats the way I was hoping people would interpret my statement on Clasm.
Anyway, I think my memory was a bit hazy when I typed up that Pyroclasm never mattered. It would have actually mattered once, but my friend didn't draw his Clasm after digging a lot.

All I was trying to do is provide you guys with some information here and shed some light on the Goblins matchup. I have never played DS nor am I planning to pick it up anytime soon. I'm not even sure why I am trying to help another deck than Goblins get better, I guess I just like discussing Magic.

I just think Ponder is the nut high and I can't see an argument for not playing it. Space is not an issue as it cantrips anyway, so you can just cut additional copies of cards because you will see them just as much anyway. I like to compare cantrips to the imaginary card 0 --> draw a card. They thin out your deck and make your deck more consistent. I think consistency is very important if you are playing a card like Dreadnought because you need 2 lands, Stifle, Dreadnought, protection everytime you play it. A 7 card deck with all 1 ofs will give you the same opening hand each and every time. A 14 card deck with all 2-ofs is going to give you a ton of different opening hand and is thus less consistent. This is the concept of consistency. I hope I made my point clear this way, I'm not really used to writing the concepts I use when designing/playing a deck down on paper. I hope a better writer than I am will write an article about this sometime.

In short: Ponder makes the deck more consistent, which is exactly what a deck with a 2 card combo that needs protection wants. I haven't even mentioned what Ponder does to your mulligan ratio, but let me tell you: it makes you much less prone to mana flood/screw.

The only downside of Ponder is that you are weaker against Chalice for one. And that's a legit reason not to play it, if you are expecting a lot of Stompy/Stax decks.

Anyway, Duncan (my friend) told me he would register here and comment about what he cut in order to make room for Ponder so I'll leave it to him.

[deadlock]

Maybe i am off, but the way i see it is that Ur Dreadstill is a (combo) controll deck with a really low curve, Nought is just an option - not a mandatory.
I dont play it foremost because its a sorcery and it doesnt help in the case i open with colorless mana open. These hands were it would help (1 blue source, no Brainstorm / Top) are extremely rare.
Keeping mana open on turn one is also good because of enemy Dazes, the option to Stifle a Fetch or use an Brainstorm to find a counterspell / set up turn two plays.
I always smile if someone opens with ponder against me, because it means that i can Daze his turn two spell or if i am on the play, can drop something nasty turn two (not turn one creature -> Standstill usable turn two).

Maybe for the greem splash version it fits, because its more Threshold like :eyebrow:

[Mantis]

I always smile if someone opens with ponder against me, because it means that i can Daze his turn two spell or if i am on the play, can drop something nasty turn two (not turn one creature -> Standstill usable turn two).
I don't see what Ponder has to do with you being able to Daze a spell turn 2 or drop a Standstill. Your argument doesn't invalidate my points in any way. If the opponent instead played Nefarious Lich in that slot you would also be able to play Daze or Standstill.

Also take into account that Ponder does not only fix your early game, it's also good late game. I dare say it's even better than Brainstorm in the lategame.

[URABAHN]

He boarded out his Counterbalance. I've always thought it was stupid to leave Counterbalance in against GO, but after tonight I'm not 100% sure that statement holds truth. I had the feeling that CB was pretty good at protecting Dreadnought especially from Weirding and TSH. My friend rarely had Trinket Mage on top when he set up Counterbalance as he only played 2.

Tin Street Hooligan isn't really that big of problem for DS I know, that's why DS is favored pre board where GO only has Weirdings and TSH to deal with Dreadnought.

The best advice I can give any DS player is to play Ponder. Having Ponder + Brainstorm/Fetch is just gravy. I am on the point where I just want to drop Goblins so I can play 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm.

I had similar results going 5-5 Pre Board testing with my 'mates here in VA. I used a U/G version of Dreadstill packing 'goyf and I tested against Templar Goblins. I had issues with Lackey on the play, but found that 2nd turn Dreadnought is often more than Goblins can handle. Mostly the matches boiled down to a few things

1. Lackey
2. Dreadnought
3. Thoughtseize taking Dreadnought
4. Warren Weirding sometimes killing Dreadnought

I find it more than a little strange that your friend boarded out Counterbalance. I'm certain boarding out at least 3 Standstill would be better because of AEther Vial. I'd also like to know what he cut for Ponder.

EDIT: Mantis, this talk that Ponder is better than Brainstorm in the late game is just crazy talk. Brainstorm draws 3 cards, it doesn't rearrange the Top 3 and let you draw the one you want.

[Mantis]

Brainstorm requires a Fetchland.. But it doesn't actually matter if Brainstorm or Ponder is better, you run them together. Ponder makes Brainstorm even more powerful as it's yet another shuffle effect.

He also cut Standstill. He boarded in 3 BEB and 2 Pyroclasm and 2 Pithing Needle for 3 Counterbalance and 4 Standstill.
This would be better I think:
+3 BEB, +2 Pyroclasm
-4 Standstill, -1 Counterbalance/Trickbind/whatever.

Removed the list by DK's request.

[FoolofaTook]

Ponder is a great card but an iffy inclusion in any deck that would like to keep blue open on turn one for Stifle or Brainstorm.

[Enigma]

If you guys have problems with Aggro decks, why don't you just run an UGr version. I really think it's so much better. I faced Goblins twice on tournament with my UGWr list and Tarmogoyf, Swords, BEB and Firespouts are pretty good against them.

1st game, I usually go for dreadnought stifle quickly, because they do not have a revelant answer, but game 2 or 3, just go with Goyfs. + Never underestimate the power of Mishra against Goblins, I find it really good.

[Mantis]

Ponder is a great card but an iffy inclusion in any deck that would like to keep blue open on turn one for Stifle or Brainstorm.
It does not have to be played on turn 1, it's actually still fine to play on turn 21. Also, Brainstorm is like a bad Opt if played on turn one. It's way better on turn 2 in conjunction with a fetchland OR a Ponder ;).

[DKK]

Hi guys!

I'm the friend Mantis is referring to. This whole Ponder debate made me sign up to The Source for defending our case.

I feel Ponder makes this deck even better than it already is. I feel most of you guys can't get past the idea that you don't have to play Ponder on turn 1 so you CAN leave mana open for Stifle/Brainstorm. On top of that you are running the Ponder vs. Brainstorm discussion, which is not an issue, because I run both.

Reasons why I believe Ponder is good:
- It can dig 4 cards deep on turn 1 to find your missing Stifle/Dreadnought/protection, therefore enabling more turn 2 protected 12/12 tramplers. Or to find your counterbalance for turn 2, while at the same time putting the right cmc-card at the top of your library. (all of this Brainstorm can do too).
- It is an extra shuffle effect after Brainstorm or with Top.
- If you draw it mid/late-game you don't have to have a shuffle effect to make it effective.
- It is more versatile than the cards I have cut for it (from Roodmistah's UR list: 21st land, 4th Daze, 2nd Explosives, 3rd Trinket Mage). I don't miss any of the cards I have cut for it, except for maybe the 4th basic Island when splashing another color (I'm not completely set on this) and playing against stax.
- It is a sorcery so it pumps Goyf (when splashing green, which I do at the moment).
- It is blue and therefore pitchable to FoW.

Overall it smoothens the decks draw even more. In about 40 games I think I have mulliganed only twice.

Aside from the Ponder debate, I think Dreadstill is a strong deck and cool to play. This deck makes me like to play Legacy (I'm a Vintage player by heart).

[Omega]

Unlike tres.hold, you don't have to cast ponder on turn. Others have pointed it out already. You can keep the mana open for stifle, although more and more people are playing around it anyway.
Personally though, i love to cast first turn ponder because it allows me to set up my game for the next turns. Also, it can increase the chance of having a fow/daze/CB in hand

Definately the second best draw/tutor of legacy (after brainstorm)

But i can understand people not running it...
4 standstill
2-3 sensei's divining top
and 4 brainstorm can be enough in some matchup. But in the games where you side out Standstill, its good to have 3-4 more draw cantrip

Robert

[jazzykat]

Hi guys!

I'm the friend Mantis is referring to. This whole Ponder debate made me sign up to The Source for defending our case.

I feel Ponder makes this deck even better than it already is. I feel most of you guys can't get past the idea that you don't have to play Ponder on turn 1 so you CAN leave mana open for Stifle/Brainstorm. On top of that you are running the Ponder vs. Brainstorm discussion, which is not an issue, because I run both.

Reasons why I believe Ponder is good:
- It can dig 4 cards deep on turn 1 to find your missing Stifle/Dreadnought/protection, therefore enabling more turn 2 protected 12/12 tramplers. Or to find your counterbalance for turn 2, while at the same time putting the right cmc-card at the top of your library. (all of this Brainstorm can do too).
- It is an extra shuffle effect after Brainstorm or with Top.
- If you draw it mid/late-game you don't have to have a shuffle effect to make it effective.
- It is more versatile than the cards I have cut for it (from Roodmistah's UR list: 21st land, 4th Daze, 2nd Explosives, 3rd Trinket Mage). I don't miss any of the cards I have cut for it, except for maybe the 4th basic Island when splashing another color (I'm not completely set on this) and playing against stax.
- It is a sorcery so it pumps Goyf (when splashing green, which I do at the moment).
- It is blue and therefore pitchable to FoW.

Overall it smoothens the decks draw even more. In about 40 games I think I have mulliganed only twice.

Aside from the Ponder debate, I think Dreadstill is a strong deck and cool to play. This deck makes me like to play Legacy (I'm a Vintage player by heart).


That does sound like some reasonable cuts! Given that there are a 7 colorless sources and only 21 lands, your deck sounds like it would be more consistent. Although, given that you are cutting actual business and would only have 2 3CC cards for counterbalance I am intrigued.

What do your current lists look like, if you don't want to share them with the world then PM them to me by all means, as I like what you are doing A LOT!

I think Ponder would be VERY worthwhile to test. My goal in optimizing would be to make the probabily be very small, that an opening hand does not contain an island and a cantrip. Saving on the mulligan is worth it to me.

BTW welcome to the source. I have collaborated with Mantis before, years ago on CAL and I am glad he has brought over another worthy mind.

[Enigma]

I don't feel cutting those are bad plans, except the 2nd EE which I love so much to cut. But in addition of the green splash, I would hardly know what to cut. In UGr list, we already cut the 3rd Mage. So we have to find four other ones: -1 Trickbind, -1 dreadnought are fines. I feel like cutting a Standstill would be ok because of ponder is doing a similar job. I really do not see the last one, so I guess you would stick to 3 goyfs?

// Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 Ponder
3 Standstill
1 Trickbind
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Snare

I do not feel confidant with this list at the first regard, but would need good test.

[Irish_Mafia]

Idk, although testing is required it seems like you are pushing to hard to make it work. You are trying to fit it in by cutting the consistancy of the deck and i think that is a huge mistake. But like you said testing is required

[BKclassic]

Firstly, never cut Standstill. If you want to run Ponder in a green splash build, do as Rich Shay did that one time and cut the Trinket Mages and Trinkets for 2 Ponder and Krosan Grip.

[Enigma]

I agree. Whatever, as I tested, I do not want to drop to 20 lands, nor to 3 standstills. I just think Ponder doesn't deserve a spot in this thight MD.

[The_Red_Panda]

Yeah I had put them back in again just to see if it changes anything but I tested against Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk. Everytime I boarded in all 3 Clasms and they didn't do anything for me so they're staying out permanently most likely.

I'd love to hear the specifics here. Did you draw into them consistently? Was the damage from clasm not enough, or was it that it didn't clear enough creatures? I'd like to hear how these games panned out.

Thank,

TheRedPanda



Did this ever get answered? I'd still love to hear how this testing went, and if you're keeping those sweepers out.

[zuzy]

Hallo,

I am also thinking about adding Ponder to the deck, but I don´t know what to cut...

There is an idea in my mind about cutting:

1x Engineered Explosives - it is quite situation card and I have 2 in MD that I feel, they are too much.

1x Phyrexian Dreadnought - often I am using stifles for some other things, that Stifling the Dreadnought´s CIP effect. And it happened to me, that I have Dreadnought in hand and can´t play it.

For these 2 cards I want to add 2x Ponder.

I will NOT CUT:

3rd Trinket Mage, because it can find needed Dreadnought (one will be out), Explosives and SDT.

1 land - The 21 land manabase is really perfect and fit´s me really well.

Just for your information here is my decklist:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// NAME: ZUZY – Dreadstill UGr

// Lands
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ALA] Island (1)
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought (one will be cut for 1x Ponder)

// Spells
1 [TSP] Trickbind
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives (one will be cut for 1x Ponder)
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MM] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

What do you think?

ZUZY

[DKK]

I don't feel cutting those are bad plans, except the 2nd EE which I love so much to cut. But in addition of the green splash, I would hardly know what to cut. In UGr list, we already cut the 3rd Mage. So we have to find four other ones: -1 Trickbind, -1 dreadnought are fines. I feel like cutting a Standstill would be ok because of ponder is doing a similar job. I really do not see the last one, so I guess you would stick to 3 goyfs?

-List-

I do not feel confidant with this list at the first regard, but would need good test.

I wouldn't cut any Standstills ever. I did cut one Spell Snare, which sometimes feels too narrow. And yes, I'm running only 3 Goyf. As of now, that has been fine with me.

Adding green and 4 ponder has made sideboarding a whole lot more difficult I have to say. Deciding which cards to remove from the main is harder than before.

In testing, I sometimes felt I missed the 21st land against mana-denial strategies (white stax, I can imagine it applies for TA too). Therefore I might cut Ponder #4 for Island #4.

I'm discussing and testing a lot these days, so more info to come.

- DKK

[jazzykat]

From someone that actually understands probability and statistics I would love to know the probability of opening with:

at least 1 Blue Source OR Fetch

AND

at least 1 Brainstorm OR Ponder


For the case of 20 and 21 lands (assuming 7 are colorless 3 waste + 4 factory) for all possibilities of 4 Brainstorms and 0 to 4 ponders.

I think that will give me an objective place to start tweaking to minimize mulligans mathematically.

[DKK]

From someone that actually understands probability and statistics I would love to know the probability of opening with:

at least 1 Blue Source OR Fetch

AND

at least 1 Brainstorm OR Ponder


For the case of 20 and 21 lands (assuming 7 are colorless 3 waste + 4 factory) for all possibilities of 4 Brainstorms and 0 to 4 ponders.

EDIT: Percentages deleted, because the model was wrong. On page 56 the correct probabilities are shown.

EDIT: While obtaining further probabilities (the one described below) from my little model in excel I found some things which I believe are wrong, so if anyone can check the numbers above I would appreciate it.

A more interesting statistic in the light of mulligan decisions is the sum of the following two probabilities:
A. The probability of having zero blue sources in your opening hand.
B. The probability of having exactly one blue source and zero Ponder/Brainstorm in your opening hand.
These are the hands you will mulligan most likely.
(Hands like: Blue Source, Stifle, Dreadnought, 2 Force, 2 Random Blue cards on the draw are hands you probably will keep, but that is not taken into account here.)

[jazzykat]

These are the hands you will mulligan most likely.
(Hands like: Blue Source, Stifle, Dreadnought, 2 Force, 2 Random Blue cards on the draw are hands you probably will keep, but that is not taken into account here.)

From experience if I only have 1 blue source for mana and no cantrips I almost always ship the hand, unless it is a god hand and has some seriously relevant cards. From my experience mana screw does happen a bit if you take a 1 land hand as you HAVE to hit land 2 on turn 2 otherwise your hand just got a lot worse.

What I'm trying to determine is if we can run 20 land and 8 cantrips and actually decrease mulligans.

[BKclassic]

From experience if I only have 1 blue source for mana and no cantrips I almost always ship the hand, unless it is a god hand and has some seriously relevant cards. From my experience mana screw does happen a bit if you take a 1 land hand as you HAVE to hit land 2 on turn 2 otherwise your hand just got a lot worse.

What I'm trying to determine is if we can run 20 land and 8 cantrips and actually decrease mulligans.

I am pretty sure you can, but I think you are going to have alot more success cutting a Wasteland instead of an Island. Cutting blue sources for Ponder when you are only running 14 of them really makes no sense if you are trying to improve the decks consistnecy.

[GUnit]

I am pretty sure you can, but I think you are going to have alot more success cutting a Wasteland instead of an Island. Cutting blue sources for Ponder when you are only running 14 of them really makes no sense if you are trying to improve the decks consistnecy.

That's simply untrue. I can see how intuitively you might be inclined to say that cutting a blue source and adding ponders, in an attempt to find blue sources more consistently, would fail miserably, but statistically it actually increases your chance of hitting 2 blue sources by turn 2.

Your chance to naturally draw 2 blue sources by turn 2 is reduced by about 4% in removing a single blue source, but your odds of drawing a ponder, which will find you a blue source if you only have 1 in your opening hand 70% of the time, are quite good. So, something like 30% of the time, a "one-land" hand will have a ponder in it that will find another island.

In actual fact, what this means is that your odds of hitting 2 blue sources by turn 2 are actually increased by almost 5%, not to mention the increased consistency throughout the course of a game granted by running a set of ponders.

[BKclassic]

That's simply untrue. I can see how intuitively you might be inclined to say that cutting a blue source and adding ponders, in an attempt to find blue sources more consistently, would fail miserably, but statistically it actually increases your chance of hitting 2 blue sources by turn 2.

Your chance to naturally draw 2 blue sources by turn 2 is reduced by about 4% in removing a single blue source, but your odds of drawing a ponder, which will find you a blue source if you only have 1 in your opening hand 70% of the time, are quite good. So, something like 30% of the time, a "one-land" hand will have a ponder in it that will find another island.

In actual fact, what this means is that your odds of hitting 2 blue sources by turn 2 are actually increased by almost 5%, not to mention the increased consistency throughout the course of a game granted by running a set of ponders.

Yeah, cutting a blue source for ponders will definitely help you get double blue. But the things is, getting double blue is not really an issue in this deck, since there are only 3 cards that have double blue in their cost. Much more important is getting that first blue mana source, which definitely becomes less likely when you cut them for ponders.

Also people, while I don't think Ponder is a bad card, before you work in more Ponders, you guys should definitely play the 3rd Sensei's Divining Top. That card has way more synergy with the deck and is a beating under Standstill.

[AngryTroll]

Are Thoughtseizes better than Spell Snares?

The argument against them is that they encourage you to tap out on the first turn instead of waiting for Stifle or a Brainstorm, and open with a fetchland for a non-basic; on the other hand, they are more versatile than Spell Snares against a lot of decks.

Black also offers creature removal mainboard; Plague is less powerful than Pyroclasm, but still potent; Thoughtseize and REB are on similar power levels.

[BKclassic]

Are Thoughtseizes better than Spell Snares?

The argument against them is that they encourage you to tap out on the first turn instead of waiting for Stifle or a Brainstorm, and open with a fetchland for a non-basic; on the other hand, they are more versatile than Spell Snares against a lot of decks.

Black also offers creature removal mainboard; Plague is less powerful than Pyroclasm, but still potent; Thoughtseize and REB are on similar power levels.

While discard is better suited to protecting Naught, I don't find it to be that great in Dreadstill due to being non-blue, doesn't let you leave mana open for Stifle, but most importantly, can't be played after your opponent pops Standstill. Being left with Force of Will as the only counter that does anything post-still really sucks because it un-does the card advantage Standstill gives you.

[Rood]

Are Thoughtseizes better than Spell Snares?

The argument against them is that they encourage you to tap out on the first turn instead of waiting for Stifle or a Brainstorm, and open with a fetchland for a non-basic; on the other hand, they are more versatile than Spell Snares against a lot of decks.

Black also offers creature removal mainboard; Plague is less powerful than Pyroclasm, but still potent; Thoughtseize and REB are on similar power levels.

Rich and myself were testing the black splash Dreadstill last night and it was actually pretty good but it needs to be tested more. I was visiting the white splash potential of Dreadstill. Seize is good, I think a 2/2 split between them is probally the best way to go. White splash was really nice as well, StP is too good.

On the discussion of Ponder, there's two things you have to take in when you maindeck this card. One, you do make yourself very consistent to an already extremely consistent deck. But I tend to hate running too many Sorceries because if you're under a Standstill they're absolute garbage so you would probally only want to run two.

[DKK]

I found the error in my model and these are the correct probabilities:

With 13 blue sources (20 land, 7 colorless) the probability is:
#Ponder/Brainstorm - Probability of having at least 1 ponder/brainstorm + at least 1 blue source
8 - 0,5306
7 - 0,4863
6 - 0,4368
5 - 0,3816
4 - 0,3201


With 14 blue sources (21 land, 7 colorless) the probability is:
#Ponder/Brainstorm - Probability of having at least 1 ponder/brainstorm + at least 1 blue source
8 - 0,5477
7 - 0,5021
6 - 0,4511
5 - 0,3942
4 - 0,3308

[GUnit]

One thing to note:

In a one land hand, ponder is actually much better than brainstorm because it digs deeper and prevents being doomed to 2 dead draws in the case of a whiff. I'd be more likely to keep a single land + ponder hand than the analogue with brainstorm. The BS hand would have to be good to keep.

[DKK]

As I mentioned, a more interesting statistic in the light of mulligan decisions is the sum of the following two probabilities:
A. The probability of having zero blue sources in your opening hand.
B. The probability of having exactly one blue source and zero Ponder/Brainstorm/colorless mana sources in your opening hand.
These are the hands you will mulligan most likely.
(This strictly goes for hands on the play. On the draw it is a whole different scenario. Also, points can be made for keeping hands with Sensei’s Top, but that is not what I would keep.)

Here are the probabilites for 13 and 14 blue sources and variable amounts of ponders:

With 13 blue sources (20 land, 7 colorless) the probability is:
#Ponder/Brainstorm - Probability of mulligan as described above.
8 - 0,1933
7 - 0,2001
6 - 0,2081
5 - 0,2175
4 - 0,2284


With 14 blue sources (21 land, 7 colorless) the probability is:
#Ponder/Brainstorm - Probability of mulligan as described above.
8 - 0,1653
7 - 0,1714
6 - 0,1787
5 - 0,1873
4 - 0,1974

Conluding, cutting a blue source and adding 4 Ponders decreases your mulligan ratio by 0,5%. Adding 4 Ponder without cutting a blue source decreases the mulligan ratio by 3,2%.

And, like Roodmistah said, there are other things to consider when adding Ponder to the deck. The above numbers are to clarify some things and I made them because I like doing these things. However, in a game like Magic, the number of things to consider grow enormously quick, what makes these things difficult.

[GUnit]

Before people get carried away with 0.5% vs. 3.2% (or whatever the numbers may be) let's not forget that there's no law against playing 16 blue sources, or 13, and that sensei's divining top is another consideration (although I'd only consider it relevant on the play when against other blue decks).

The stats are informative though- just pointing out that it's not cut and dry, as has already been suggested above.

[jazzykat]

As I mentioned, a more interesting statistic in the light of mulligan decisions is the sum of the following two probabilities:
A. The probability of having zero blue sources in your opening hand.
B. The probability of having exactly one blue source and zero Ponder/Brainstorm/colorless mana sources in your opening hand.
These are the hands you will mulligan most likely.
(This strictly goes for hands on the play. On the draw it is a whole different scenario. Also, points can be made for keeping hands with Sensei’s Top, but that is not what I would keep.)

Here are the probabilites for 13 and 14 blue sources and variable amounts of ponders:

With 13 blue sources (20 land, 7 colorless) the probability is:
#Ponder/Brainstorm - Probability of mulligan as described above.
8 - 0,1933
7 - 0,2001
6 - 0,2081
5 - 0,2175
4 - 0,2284


With 14 blue sources (21 land, 7 colorless) the probability is:
#Ponder/Brainstorm - Probability of mulligan as described above.
8 - 0,1653
7 - 0,1714
6 - 0,1787
5 - 0,1873
4 - 0,1974

Conluding, cutting a blue source and adding 4 Ponders decreases your mulligan ratio by 0,5%. Adding 4 Ponder without cutting a blue source decreases the mulligan ratio by 3,2%.

And, like Roodmistah said, there are other things to consider when adding Ponder to the deck. The above numbers are to clarify some things and I made them because I like doing these things. However, in a game like Magic, the number of things to consider grow enormously quick, what makes these things difficult.

The next question becomes does 3% matter and what is the effect of seeing those 3 cards...

More interestingly, say you have the 1 Blue source + Ponder (BS is different) and you only have 20 land what's the probably of hitting that 3rd land...does it matter to have 3 lands.

I think it is going to be a matter of am I cantripping just to not see a cantrip and is cutting the numbers of certain cards going to be more detrimental than seeing a lot of cards?

[Muppet86]

Hello everyone,

i'm currently playing this list:

5x island
3x flooded strand
3x polluted delta
4x wasteland
4x mishra's factory
2x volcanic island
(21 land)

4x dreadnought
3x trinket mage
(7 creatures)

4x stifle
2x sensei top
1x trickbind
4x counterbalance
4x standstill
4x force of will
3x spell snare
4x daze
2x engeneered explosives
4x brainstorm
(32 spells)

I've removed a island for an extra wasteland and a trickbind for the fourth Counterbalance. For the rest i;m not sure about the second EE en the fourth daze. If i would cut the second EE and the fourth Daze i could play to ponders mb.

Would do you guy's think, is it smart to remove the two cards to play the ponders?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Last night i did some testing (Ponder vs 13/14 blue sources) and looked at the numbers. It was not a strictly thorough testing session but rather informal, however, it did help me to confirm an "educated guess" i had made.

I knew i also wanted a number of Ponders in the deck but like jazzycat said, too many cantrips might not always be advantageous since (i'm quoting him a bit out of context) "cutting the numbers of certain cards [could] be more detrimental than seeing a lot of cards". The thing is, the deck is already tight and i'm not sure if cutting important cards for extra Ponders will make it any better.

So i settled on just two Ponders, cutting a land and the third Mage.

Which land? A Wasteland. Sure i missed it in a couple of games but i was always happy to see the Ponder in its place, both in the early and late game. I marked one of my 14 islands as the 'missing' Wasteland to see what i would prefer to have whenever i drew it. It turned out to be largely irrelevant during games. However, i saw it in my openning hand in two games, both of which i would have had to mulligan had it been a Wasteland.

My approach was more informal than DKK's and my sample size could be insignificant, but i was happy to see that his results do not contradict my initial guess and testing:

"Cutting a blue source and adding 4 Ponders decreases your mulligan ratio by 0,5%". In other words, it doesn't help much. You have more Ponders which increased chances of not being able to cast for not having blue sources.

"Adding 4 Ponder without cutting a blue source decreases the mulligan ratio by 3,2%". So not cutting a blue source is better in terms of consistency (which is the whole reason you're adding Ponder); now you just need to evaluate how much you miss having a third Wasteland (or a fourth Factory if you cut that one). I could have used the third Wasteland in my testing but it was never critical so i'm not too sad to see it go temporarily.

As for leaving 21 lands but cutting other cards for Ponder, i haven't done that but i'm not too convinced.

[jazzykat]

I do think that the Ur version provides you the best chance of success for fitting ponders in optimally. It has more redundancy and thus can give up a little for consistently hitting your first two land drops.

What I really like about the idea of running ponder is that you get a better chance at setting up a turn 2 standstill which is normally backbreaking.

Lastly, in a non-Landstill heavy meta I think cutting a factory is the way to go. Think of it this way...landstill is awfully tough anyway, so if you can make your game a bit better against the rest of the field it might be worth it. I think this is a meta call but basics are hot and I love playing them.

[georgjorge]

In a one land hand, ponder is actually much better than brainstorm because it digs deeper [...]

Not true. Both dig three cards deep, but if you have a shuffle effect your next turn, Ponder lets you only get two of those while Brainstorm can you get all three (in exchange for one from your hand). If you play a Ponder and don't use the shuffle effect, Brainstorm would ALWAYS have been just as good or better.

[DKK]

If you do not hit your second land you have no shuffle effect. In that case with brainstorm you will draw dead for 2 turns, while with ponder you can even lucksack a land on this very turn.

[URABAHN]

If you do not hit your second land you have no shuffle effect. In that case with brainstorm you will draw dead for 2 turns, while with ponder you can even lucksack a land on this very turn.

I'm not convinced you've played with either card enough to know what you've just said is ridiculous. By lucksack, do you mean Ponder, shuffle and hope to draw a card? I fail to see how that's better than Brainstorm.

[DKK]

I'm not convinced you've played with either card enough to know what you've just said is ridiculous.

I find such a statement ridiculous and this is not the place to discuss my play experience (which I have enough by the way).

Let me make it more clear what I meant in my previous post (I thought it was obvious).

Let's assume this is your hand:
1 Brainstorm
1 Island
5 Random, non-blue, non-cantrip cards

You open with Island and then Brainstorm, and you see this:
3 Random, non-blue, non-cantrip cards.

Now after resolving Brainstorm the top of your library will look like this:
2 Random, non-blue, non-cantrip cards.

Which means, you'll draw absolute crap for the next two turns, virtually already losing the game.

Now if that Brainstorm was a Ponder instead you see the non-land cards at the top of your library, shuffle them away and IMMEDIATELY draw another card, which can be a land. If not, then you have you next draw step to draw a land so you don't miss a land drop. If that won't happen, you've got another draw step to draw a land and still be a turn ahead of the Brainstorm situation.

With a 1 land, 1 cantrip hand there are 3 possible cases:
1. You do not find a land in the top 3 cards.
2. You do find a land in the top 3 cards, but it is not a fetchland.
3. You find a fetchland in the top 3 cards.

In case 1, Ponder is way better than Brainstorm. In case 2, there isn't much difference and in case 3, Brainstorm is slightly better than Ponder.

This is what I thought was commonly known knowledge and was wat GUnit and I pointed at.


By lucksack, do you mean Ponder, shuffle and hope to draw a card? I fail to see how that's better than Brainstorm.
How can having the chance of finding your second land not be better than definitely NOT drawing it for the next two turns?

I'm not convinced you have played with either card enough to know what you've just said is ridiculous. Even a single game would make this obvious.

[KrzyMoose]

Let's assume this is your hand:
1 Brainstorm
1 Island
5 Random, non-blue, non-cantrip cards

You open with Island and then Brainstorm

You should never, ever, ever lead with Brainstorm if you're trying to find a second land.

98% of the time, you should simply play your Land and pass the turn. Then, 90% of the time, you should Brainstorm during your next mainphase. (If the opponent plays like Tropical Island and passes, you may want to play Brainstorm at the end of his turn, so that you don't signal you're mana-screwed, which may make him Daze your Brainstorm). By waiting until your next turn, after your draw step, you see an extra card.

[DKK]

You should never, ever, ever lead with Brainstorm if you're trying to find a second land.

98% of the time, you should simply play your Land and pass the turn. Then, 90% of the time, you should Brainstorm during your next mainphase. (If the opponent plays like Tropical Island and passes, you may want to play Brainstorm at the end of his turn, so that you don't signal you're mana-screwed, which may make him Daze your Brainstorm). By waiting until your next turn, after your draw step, you see an extra card.

I know, just for the purpose of this example I didn't make the distinction between your own and your opponents turn. I agree with you on the Brainstorm next mainphase. In that case, however, Ponder would have been better on your first turn.

But let's not make this while thread a Ponder vs. Brainstorm debate. We should put our efforts into improving the deck rather than arguing which of those is better in what situation.

[KrzyMoose]

I'm actually of the belief that every deck should start with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder.

People should just suck it up, cut Trinket Mage, and play the following:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Xx other cards

And there you have it: the perfect deck.

[DKK]

So yesterday I played UGr Dreadstill in a 156 player tournament in Utrecht, the Netherlands.

Top 8 was:
1. Ur Dreadstill
2. UGR ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
3. UGr Dreadstill (me)
4. BGW Rock
5-8. Merfolk
5-8. Combo Elves
5-8. Faerie Stompy
5-8. UGR ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (not sure)

The first prize was a flight, probably hotel, entree fee and 3 byes to GP Chicago. While playing the semi's it became clear that both the later finalists didn't want/weren't allowed to go to Chicago. So me and the other semi-finalist played it out and I won 2-0. Guess I'll be going to Chicago!

Here's my list:
Creatures:
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage

Spells:
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands:
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle

I went 6-0-2 resulting in a 3rd place Swiss finish with 20 points. In t8 I defeated the Elf player and lost a very close and cool match against Ur Dreadstill. His crucibles were key in the mirror. Game 3 I thought I was at 5 when I wanted to swing for the first 12 with my Dreadnought when he had 2 Factories with Crucible out. Then I noticed I'd forgotten one life point and I was 1 life short of winning. Unfortunately I didn't see much Goyfs in the semi's.

Overall I went 8-1-2 in matches and 18-6 in games, playing Ponder as I promoted for the past week in the this thread. I used to play 4 Ponder and 20 land in my deck. But the probablities I've posted here gave me more insight on the impact of Ponder, therefore I switched to 21 land and 3 Ponder. Last minute I discussed my list with Rich Shay who advised me to play a second Explosives in the deck. I cut the 3rd Ponder for it. The deck is real consistent and very good.

Here are the matches I've played:
Rnd 1: UW Control, 1-1
Rnd 2: MUC, 1-0
Rnd 3: BUG NoughtFish, 2-1
Rnd 4: Mono R Goblins, 2-0
Rnd 5: RG Goblins, 1-1
Rnd 6: RGWB Survival, 2-0
Rnd 7: UWG ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, 2-1
Rnd 8: MUC(with white splash for swords), 2-1

Top 8: Elf Combo, 2-0
Top 4: Ur Dreadstill, 1-2
3rd/4th: BWG Rock, 2-0

[Atog]

Congratulations for your result! How were ponders working for you during day? And how were firespouts, did you ever wish they were pyroclasms?

In the future, please refrain from quoting large bodies of text.
-TOOL

[DKK]

Congratulations for your result! How were ponders working for you during day? And how were firespouts, did you ever wish they were pyroclasms?

Ponders were good, finding the cards you want when you need them.

I have never been in a situation where I wished firespouts were pyroclasm. I boarded them in vs. Elves, Goblins and The Rock. I haven't been in mana problems, so the higher mana-cost wasn't an issue. The same for flyers. I did counter a Vindicate with CounterBalance against the Rock. I think the 3cc is more of a benefit than a liability because of counterbalance.

[Atog]

Ponders were good, finding the cards you want when you need them.

I have never been in a situation where I wished firespouts were pyroclasm. I boarded them in vs. Elves, Goblins and The Rock. I haven't been in mana problems, so the higher mana-cost wasn't an issue. The same for flyers. I did counter a Vindicate with CounterBalance against the Rock. I think the 3cc is more of a benefit than a liability because of counterbalance.

Ok. That rock-deck should be our worst matchup yes? Did you have luck or did opponent has bad draws or something? One more question, what did you side agaist ugr thresh? Thanks!

[Rodney]

I could see the list of Ur Dreadstill version? Thanks

DTB posts are required to have more content.
-TOOL

[DKK]

Ok. That rock-deck should be our worst matchup yes? Did you have luck or did opponent has bad draws or something? One more question, what did you side agaist ugr thresh? Thanks!

I heard it was our worst matchup, but I have to admit I hadn't played against it before the tournament. I did test some against Eva Green though, aside from the Tombstalkers (which my deck has no answer for, I couldn't lay my hand on some submerges) it is winnable.

I won the die-roll which is a big plus and managed to outdraw and control him both games with standstills and countertop. I boarded in Firespouts to deal with his army of skullers/witness/confidants and to have more 3cc's for counterbalance (against vindicate). I had some luck, but I also got the feeling I played very tight those games (after already 10 rounds of tournament play :smile: ).

Against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (it was UGW) I boarded like this:
+3 Krosan Grip (for their CB)
+2 Red Elemental Blast
-3 Daze (I won game 1, almost always board these out on the draw, because of the tempo disadvantage)
-1 Island (my initial build had 20 land, so I'm comfortable with playing only 20 and I'm on the draw)
-1 ???

Game 3 I boarded the Dazes back in, but I can't remember what I boarded out (I think 2 Spell Snares and something else). Almost always I make notes afterward how I boarded, but somehow I didn't do it this tournament.

Hope this will help you some.

[FoolofaTook]

Your UGr is interesting because it cuts the middle somewhat between a classic Dreadstill and a more Thresh like build. I have a few questions from glancing at the list:

1. Did you find CounterTop coming out often enough to be a dominant effect? The 2x Trinket Mage and 2x Sensei's Divining Top seems a little bit light, maybe by one mage or one top.

2. How often did you get a fast win off of Tarmogoyf with counter backup? I've been looking at a bunch of builds that use Tarmogoyf to speed things up and allow for a second fast win mechanism.

3. You have only two 3cc spell in the main list, does that feel like a solid number?

Your showing was very impressive for a 156 person tourney so obviously the list is sound. Are there any changes you would make based on the tourney at this point?

[jazzykat]

3. You have only two 3cc spell in the main list, does that feel like a solid number?


Which is why I was considering an old thresh shell removing the CB because the main enemy is Krosan Grip (somewhat less so when you run goyfs as a kill as well) and we only have 2 cmc 3.

Alternatively, I think that crucible has a place in dreadstill because of its cmc and rather neat ability.

[Muradin]

So I've piloted Dreadstill to a first place finish at the GP Chicago Trial. There were 156 players as I was told and I was playing an Ur variant that is very similar to Roodmistah's build.

I played the following decklist to a 6-0 followed up with 2 draws in the Swiss and then found my way through the top 8. Resulting in a 9-0-2 score at the end of the day.

Lands: 21
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishras Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island

Creatures: 7
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

Spells:32
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
2 Trickbind
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard: 15
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon (MVP)
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives

The maindeck is the usual Ur Dreadstill but I still wanted to play this one Crucible as I expected a lot of Landstill builds that are otherwise really difficult matchups. That's also the explanation for the Crucibles in the sideboard and it worked out very well for me.
Blood Moon was a card that won many games on its own and helped me to win some otherwise hard matchups.

I had to play against:
Ad Nauseam Storm 2-0
Team America 2-1 (Blood Moon!)
UWb Landstill 2-0 (Crucible)
BW Aggro-Control 2-0 (Explosives, Pyroclasm)
Ugb Landstill with Intuition/Loam 2-1 (Relic, Blood Moon and 3 Crucibles made this matchup a walk in the park after having had a very bad matchup preboard)
Imperial Painter 2-1
2x Draw into top 8

Merfolk 2-1 (I had really bad draws game 1 & 2 but could kill about 5 of his guys with one Pyroclasm in game 2 when he tapped out to come back in this already lost game. Last game I drew the nuts and just won)

Ugr Dreadstill(DKK) 2-1
Those were very close games and I really think he should have had an edge postboard as he had access to Krosan Grip(but I have Crucible which is also very strong). However I could win game 3 because I had some tempo advantage so I could swing a couple of times with a pair of factories. When he got to slip through a Dreadnought I had him down at 4 life and a Crucible on the board. Mishras keep him from attacking and eventually won.

(Those were very tight and close games and it could have turned out the other way round as well)

Finals: Ugr Tempo Threshold
In our first game I had to mulligan to 6 and he got out a pair of Goyfs quite quickly and kills me. (I misplayed here by not going for explosives with 2 counters for 3 mana to dodge spell snare. I'll blame this on being tired at that moment)
In game 2 I mulliganed again but I get a Blood Moon to stick and he has to scoop after I drop Dreadnought and Counterbalance.
In our last game the deck showed how good it is and while he had to mulligan and kept rather bad 6 cards I got an awesome draw with many Relics, Explosives and win based on cardadvantage from my Standstills.

The deck worked very smoothly and I only had to mulligan about 5 times during the whole tournament. The Crucibles in the board were just a metagame adjustment but the Blood Moons definitely will have to stay there as they just give you very easy random wins against many decks.
However I think that there should at least be 1 Crucible in the 75 of Dreadstill as it is such a reliable card that improves your late game a lot.

For me the board worked out quite well, but what do you think about it?
I think this deck is a very good choice in the current metagame because it is very consistent and plays a lot of basic lands which is very important in the times of Team America and Canadian Threshold.
It can execute a very strong gameplan while also being highly disruptive and is very well equipped to deal with Ad Nauseam Combo. Of course there is also a number of bad matchups and problematic cards for Dreadstill but with a good and innovative sideboard there are only very few problems we can not handle.

@ DKK: Nice you won the ticket to Chicago as I can't go and the Threshold player who finished second place doesn't go as well.

[jazzykat]

I think your list is also super tight and I have done some testing with crucible which I feel is a must for the deck. My question is, since you don't have a great answer for Tombstalker did you just plan on bloodmoon for most of the more powerful tombstalker type decs?

Also, do you prefer Bloodmoon or Magus of the Moon?

[Enigma]

Against Red Trash, Blood moon is really better, since they can't burn it.

I also very like your list, I will give it a try for sure.

PM

[Van Phanel]

His plan against Tombstalker was simply racing them with a Nought or stopping them from entering play at all with a Moon or Relic. In testing, he had several games with boarded Echoing Truth, where his opponent could simply replay the Stalker and win which is also why he didn't play them.

[DKK]

1. Did you find CounterTop coming out often enough to be a dominant effect? The 2x Trinket Mage and 2x Sensei's Divining Top seems a little bit light, maybe by one mage or one top.
Counter Top is definitely good in this deck. Some games you just dominate your opponent with it, and in others it is good at baiting counters/removal to make sure year Noughts can go all the way. I could see adding another top in the deck, but it's real tight.

Of course there are games where you should board out CB, like stax, but in most matches resolving it will mean winning with 90% certainty.



2. How often did you get a fast win off of Tarmogoyf with counter backup? I've been looking at a bunch of builds that use Tarmogoyf to speed things up and allow for a second fast win mechanism.
I hardly use Tarmogoyf as a fast win with counter-backup. Part of that is because I only run 3, so I don't always have him in my opener.
Another thing to consider is how you want to play this deck. My goal is to fetch out an early basic and gain control before dropping a creature to go all the way. Tarmogoyf does a great job in stopping early hordes of creatures (like Goblins), while you clear the way for Nought.



3. You have only two 3cc spell in the main list, does that feel like a solid number?
Pre-board I am not that concerned with the amount of 3-cc spells in my deck. You don't get out CounterTop all the time, Krosan Grip is mostly played pre-board (which, if properly done, can be played around counterbalance) and spells like vindicate can still be countered with force/daze. I am considering adding a single Crucible in the main, although for now I don't know what to cut for it.



Your showing was very impressive for a 156 person tourney so obviously the list is sound. Are there any changes you would make based on the tourney at this point?
Thank you! There aren't any drastic changes I've come up with so far. The maindeck is very tight and felt good all day. I think it suites my playstyle and perception of what this deck wants perfectly. As I already mentioned, I am looking at the possibility of adding a single (or maybe a 2nd sb) crucible in the deck.

About the sideboard, 3 Firespout, 2 Rebs, 3 Grips and 2/3 Hydroblast are definite stayers. Needle wasn't exceptionally good, but is a good catch-all. I haven't really used the graveyard hate, but that was because of my matchups.


So I've piloted Dreadstill to a first place finish at the GP Chicago Trial. There were 156 players as I was told and I was playing an Ur variant that is very similar to Roodmistah's build.

I played the following decklist to a 6-0 followed up with 2 draws in the Swiss and then found my way through the top 8. Resulting in a 9-0-2 score at the end of the day.
Again, congratulations on your awesome performance! Dreadstill has shown itself to be one of the best decks out there. You had no losses, and my only loss was in the mirror.



Lands: 21
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishras Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island

Creatures: 7
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

Spells:32
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
2 Trickbind
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard: 15
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon (MVP)
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
The main reason I added green was for Krosan Grip and the Aggro Matchup. How do you deal with a resolved Counterbalance? Or does it simply not resolve? I notice you play only 2 BEB and 2 Pyroclasm, against my 3 Hydroblast and 3 Firespout. Combined with no Goyfs, how hard are Aggro matchups? Crucible-factory recursion might jump in here of course.



Ugr Dreadstill(DKK) 2-1
Those were very close games and I really think he should have had an edge postboard as he had access to Krosan Grip(but I have Crucible which is also very strong). However I could win game 3 because I had some tempo advantage so I could swing a couple of times with a pair of factories. When he got to slip through a Dreadnought I had him down at 4 life and a Crucible on the board. Mishras keep him from attacking and eventually won.

(Those very very tight and close games and it could have turned out the other way round as well)
Well said! I saw you unboarding after your match with the Merfolk player so I knew you had Crucibles (thought only in the board, so I was somewhat surprised to see one G1, which won you). I think the green splash dreadstill should have an edge postboard (a small one) because of Goyf as an extra beater and of course Grip, which should give me the opportunity to neutralize your Crucible/CB/Nought. I just couldn't get there those games. Very well played. They could have gone either way indeed.



For me the board worked out quite well, but what do you think about it?
I think this deck is a very good choice in the current metagame because it is very consistent and plays a lot of basic lands which is very important in the times of Team America and Canadian Threshold.
It can execute a very strong gameplan while also being highly disruptive and is very well equipped to deal with Ad Nauseam Combo. Of course there is also a number of bad matchups and problematic cards for Dreadstill but with a good and innovative sideboard there are only very few problems we can not handle.
Can you elaborate on your general boarding strategies? I'm curious if there are big differences with my boarding plans.



@ DKK: Nice you won the ticket to Chicago as I can't go and the Threshold player who finished second place doesn't go as well.
Now at least a Dreadstill player goes! :D

[Rood]

Wow guys, really impressive job in the tournament. I'm glad to see Ugr doing well and that Ur list looks really great. I see you only made a few changes to the SB but I have to agree, Crucible is really tight. Miss E-truth at all? That's probally one of my favorite SB cards TBH. Good work. I'll see you in Chicago?

-Edit: does anyone else find it funny that DKK's Dreadstill list lost to only the mirror? lol

[Rodney]

@ Roodmistah: Since the Maindeck is almost always identical to the version Ur, What is your sideboard at the moment? Which deck or protect you prefer to have answers to the threats?
MU as the calculations of the deck? Thanks

[Muradin]

My plan against Tombstalker is exactly what Van Phanel said. I found the Echoing Truth quite useful against Stalker and Chalice, but often they were also lacking. Postboard I rather like to board in the Moons and Relic is a beating against Team America as they make both of their threats extremely bad. Goyf gets really small and they will have difficulties in playing tombstalker early on before can gain control of the game.
For me mutliple relics were better than Echoing Truth in this matchup as well as against Ichorid where I always boarded Echoing Truth as well.
Of course if Staxx is in your meta Truth is probably very good as we don't have removal for artifacts with higher converted mana cost in the Ur build.
For me the 2nd Engineered Explosives in the sideboard was very important in some matches I played against Dragonstompy on a tournament the day before the trial in Utrecht (went 4-1 in swiss but lost to mono W Control in the top 8)

Considering the Aggro matchup you are probably right that Firespout is superior to Pyroclasm most of the time as it can kill Mongoose, Wild Nacatl and Kird Ape as well (and those cards see play in Goyf Sligh and some random aggro) and has cc3 for Counterbalance. I am quite happy with my maindeck at the moment but will still have to tweak my sideboard.
I didn't have that big difficulties preboard as most aggro decks lose against a resolved Dreadnought preboard which is my primary goal in those matchups.
Goblins are actually really hard (especially postboard) because they have so much removal and very diverse mana costs to dodge Engineered Explosives, but most other aggro decks were at least ok for me in play testing.

I don't think the green splash is necessary though definitely a possibility because with Engineered Explosives you can handle the most commonly played artifacts and enchantments (Counterbalance [pay more than 2 mana to resolve it], Dreadnought, Vial, Chalice) as well. In general i felt that Counterbalance for sure is very strong when resolves but often it an still be destroyed by explosives as most decks playing CB (except this one) don't play Stifle and can't use the Counterbalance in the CC3 section. So you practically have 4 outs preboard (Mage and Explosives itself) and 5 postboard to make the whole plan more reliable (in case you already used your first explosives)
Grip is nice but for me 6 basic lands in the deck are absolutely awesome as you can't just play Blood Moon without them.
Especially as Team America is very popular at the moment together with Aggro Loam and Canadian Threshold you win many games because you are playing such a big number of basic lands.

My boarding plans were actually not 100% determined before the tournament as I have a low opinion of following sideboard plans like a robot.
However I often board out 3 Dreadnought and 2 Trickbind if I feel my opponent has so much removal that winning early will be very hard. (for Crucible, Moon, Relic, Explosives, Blasts... Whatever I need in those matchups.)
Against most decks running Standstill I take out my own Standstills because with Decree of Justice they win the Standstill fights most of the time and you can not reliable drop it if they just go on to draw some more Mishras and Wastelands than you do.
Against decks like Staxx/Dragonstompy I take out 3 Counterbalance and 1 Top for Explosives and what else I need in those matchups (Dragonstompy: Blasts, Staxx Crucible, probably a relic.)

I am rather sceptical considering determined sideboarding for certain matchups as you always have to consider the differences between your opponents build of the deck and the build you did your testing against. Furthermore it can be done based on common sense most of the time really well and everybody who knows his deck will easily find out what is good and what is bad against the deck you are playing against.

[Rood]

So I think we can agree then Muradin that Ponder isn't necessary in the Ur list? At list I don't see it making it any stronger than it already is, maybe in Ugr builds like DKKs.

Also never board out 3 Dreadnoughts, always keep 2 in..I found in testing you almost want 2 postboard even if you're going against heavily dedicated control.

[DKK]

-Edit: does anyone else find it funny that DKK's Dreadstill list lost to only the mirror? lol

I had thought of this myself :cool:. However, I felt like the mirror was a close match which either deck could have won. As stated before, my advantage lies in Krosan Grip and Tarmogoyf, while his advantage are the Crucibles.

I think both Ur and UGr are good deck choices. Your playstyle and your meta should determine which deck you want to play.

The way I see it now Ur has a better matchup against decks like Team America, while UGr has a better Goblins matchup. Both have their pros and cons, but both are clearly good decks.


So I think we can agree then Muradin that Ponder isn't necessary in the Ur list? At list I don't see it making it any stronger than it already is, maybe in Ugr builds like DKKs.
I think I agree with this statement. Ponder is better in UGr than in Ur because of Goyf. But if you want to speed up the Ur deck Ponder enables more turn 2/3 protected Dreadnoughts. If that is where you want to take the deck I suggest adding it.

[Muradin]

I also agree with you concerning Ponder. And with boarding out Dreadnought I'll try out if leaving 2 of them in the deck is better than only one, but probably you are right as you are the person who is most experienced in playing Dreadstill.

Actually I might have to build this deck myself instead of lending it from other people all the time as it plays out really well and also seems to be quite consistent.

[KubaM]

Hello all!
This is my first post so first of all I would like to apologise for my English - I'm not from English speaking country [Poland] (which shouldn't be excuse when you post on English-speaking forum, but anyway), but I'll do my best:)

Like DKK I registered here to reply on Dredstill topic - this is seriously, one of my most favourite decks I ever played in Magic. I'm playing Ur construction.

I would like to ask Muradin(or anyone who will be kind to replay) for an opinion on playing against two types of decks:

1.Landstill.
How do you deal with this deck!? I have to say, that in my local meta this is most problematic deck for me..I already know that I have to side out x4 Landstill, but what else can I do? Is Crucible of Worlds really that strong? Why do you play Blood Moon not Magus? It can do somenthing what Moon can't - kill opponent:)
Isn't removing Echoing Truth from side too risky? When opponent deploy card like Moat (I know this is maybe not the best example you don't see them too often), but let say..Humility, what can you do? I'm not referring only to Landstill threats.
So could you please give your boarding and game plan against Landstill?

2.Ichorid/Dredge
Like above - could you give some advice about how to play against this?

At the end I would like to say thay 1.5 format is very rarely played in my country (I'm lucky to be located in only one city in Poland where Legacy is popular) so I will be delighted to go to one of European tournaments in the future to meet you guys:) Maybe May in France?

Kuba

[b4r0n]

1.Landstill.
How do you deal with this deck!? I have to say, that in my local meta this is most problematic deck for me..I already know that I have to side out x4 Landstill, but what else can I do? Is Crucible of Worlds really that strong? Why do you play Blood Moon not Magus? It can do somenthing what Moon can't - kill opponent:)
Isn't removing Echoing Truth from side too risky? When opponent deploy card like Moat (I know this is maybe not the best example you don't see them too often), but let say..Humility, what can you do? I'm not referring only to Landstill threats.
So could you please give your boarding and game plan against Landstill?

Crucible is really good, and goes a long way towards winning this matchup. Grips and REBs are also pretty solid (although it depends on the build of Landstill you're playing against). You want to side out at least 2 Standstills, Spell Snares if you run them, maybe a Daze or two. This matchup is unfavorable pre-board, but you can make it somewhat favorable post-board.

As for Moon effects: the idea behind running Blood Moon instead of Magus is that Blood Moon is a lot more difficult to get rid of; with Magus, Landstill can either float W in response and then Swords it, or just fetch a basic Plains and dig for Swords. That said, I'm not a big fan of Moon effects in Dreadstill. It seems like it cripples you just as much as your opponent.


2.Ichorid/Dredge
Like above - could you give some advice about how to play against this?

A fast Dreadnought wins this matchup, as they have no outs besides possibly racing. Also, remember that you can play Dreadnought without Stifle or activate a Factory and Waste it in order to remove their Bridges. Engineered Explosives is really good pre-board, and cards like Firespout/Pyroclasm, Echoing Truth, and Crypt/Relic are amazing post-board. This matchup is about even pre-board, and becomes favorable post-board.

[Rodney]

What are the negative effects of the MU Dreadstill UR? pre-and post-side?

and which are the MU positive?


thanks

[J.V.]

Ur: More Counters, stronger Mana base.
3c Dreadstill: More threats, E.E. at three many more sideboard options.

[georgjorge]

Now the deck OBVIOUSLY is very good, and I'm starting to play it, but I'm still a bit puzzled by how the Standstills work out on the back of Factory alone. If Factory gets wasted, we'll play draw-go for a number of turns, but many decks seem to have a stronger mid- to lategame with either more land drops or more expensive and thus more powerful spells (Trinisphere, Deed etc). So Landstill, though being broken at times, appears to somewhat work against the goals of the deck by allowing slower decks to catch up, and making Snare worse and Daze useless.

I've had a number of situations where I played a 'Still, Factory died, and I had to discard soon after running out of lands, and in the end got beaten by the more powerful threats my opponent could play after he had had enough time to get his mana together. Any advice on how to better play the 'Stills would be appreciated !


EDIT: Actually, two more questions. Why doesn't anyone play the white splash which would actually give the deck good removal that would enable more second turn Standstills ? And could Merchant Scroll work in that deck (with probably a lone Submerge in there as well) ?

[Enigma]

It really depends against which deck/player you play. If you feel he has wastelands, maybe wait a bit and do not play it on turn 2. There's exceptions on this: Decks that have pro activs weapons such as Thoughtseizes (TA, for example). Those decks want to play their disrupt early, so they will break the Standstill.

The really best is to have a Top in play before. The really really best, is to have Crucible in play before.

Standstill is a really powerful card, but you need to know, more than anything else, how to play with it.

PM

[landstill101]

i'm testing a deck right now that is UBR and it runs confidants main and have liked it a lot soo far has anyone else thought of this???

[RogueMTG]

i'm testing a deck right now that is UBR and it runs confidants main and have liked it a lot soo far has anyone else thought of this???

I haven't tried it personally, but I have seen a kid go: Bob > Standstill > Kill Self. Didn't seem to good at the time.

What does the list look like?

[The_Red_Panda]

GAH, nevermind. I seriously thought it said TAP target creature and it doesn't untap during it's controller's untap step. Poop, and here I thought it would be good.

[Muradin]

1.Landstill.
How do you deal with this deck!? I have to say, that in my local meta this is most problematic deck for me..I already know that I have to side out x4 Landstill, but what else can I do? Is Crucible of Worlds really that strong? Why do you play Blood Moon not Magus? It can do somenthing what Moon can't - kill opponent:)
Isn't removing Echoing Truth from side too risky? When opponent deploy card like Moat (I know this is maybe not the best example you don't see them too often), but let say..Humility, what can you do? I'm not referring only to Landstill threats.
So could you please give your boarding and game plan against Landstill?
Kuba

Basically this matchup is not all that bad for Dreadstill while I am sure it's favorable for Landstill. It all depends on their build first of all. The lonely Crucible in my list is your best trump card preboard as it is going to win the lategame for you when resolved even if their deck is in general better equipped to play the control mirror. If they are not running Decree of Justice and Humility it's actually a quite good matchup.

I have to say that until now I've never faced a Landstill build featuring Moat, so I have to admit that I am totally inexperienced against this card and it doesn't see much play in my metagame. Of course you should play Echoing Truth if cards like Moat are commonly played in your metagame. It is not that I think Echoing Truth if bad or so, it is very versatile and absolutely useful most of the time. However it doesn't fit my personal play style and I don't see a need to run it. It is supposed to handle Tombstalker, however my way of doing so post board is delaying him with Relic of Progenitus. I want my opponent to pay a fair amount of mana for a 5/5 flying creature in order to give me the opportunity to daze it or to give me some time to find a Force of Will /put pressure on him/gain card advantage via Standstills. This is even better as many decks playing Tombstalker tend to play Tarmogoyf as well who also gets weakened by Relic of Progenitus a lot.

Decks playing Humility are usually playing very much removal in general. My plan against such Decks (Truffle Shuffle, some Landstill builds, The Mighty Quinn, decks that have both, Swords and Grips post board) is to change my whole game plan. I take out some Dreadnoughts (as Roodmistah already said, 2 is the right amout) and go for the win via Crucible/Counterbalance/ Trinket Mage beat down. If they drop Humility it is not nice but it doesn't affect my main game plan, recurring manlands beat down.

Furthermore many of the aforementioned decks fall into the category that they simply scoop to Blood Moon. I prefer Moon to Magus because I only board them against decks that simply lose to a resolved Moon effect. And while some of those decks can still kill a creature an enchantment is always much harder to destroy. When your opponent can't cast spells any more it doesn't matter that you just lost the power of your Factories/Wastelands. You are going to win at one point with one of the Dreadnoughts remaining in your deck or Trinket Mage beat down as they simply can't do anything to hinder you from doing so.

Against 4 Color Landstill I board in both, my Crucibles and Blood Moon. Of course they hinder each other, but a resolved Moon always means game and if they counter it you win with Crucible/Wasteland. You just have many strong threats in this matchup postboard and with Dreadstill you are very well capable of backing them up with a lot of counters in order to resolve them.

In my oppinion you should take out 4 Standstills, 1 Explosives and 2 Dreadnoughts. I always board 2 Crucibles and 2 Red Elemental Blasts. The rest depends on their build. If they lose to Blood Moon, board it. If they play Life from the Loam, Crucible, Eternal Dragon (at least some of them) put in 1-2 Relics as they are a cantrip at worst and make some of their best late game tools useless.




2.Ichorid/Dredge
Like above - could you give some advice about how to play against this?

Kuba

I think this matchup is unfavorable preboard, but hey, Ichorid is favored against nearly all legacy decks preboard. However it is not as bad as you would think as a quick Dreadnought is very well capable of racing them if you can counter some of their stuff. Moreover their deck is quite inconsistent so you can randomly get some wins in case they mulligan to oblivion. You should also always keep in mind the tricks b4ron mentioned in his post concerning this matchup. Postboard it gets a much better because you have a quite good number of hate with some Relics, Crypts, Red Elemental Blasts and probably Pyroclasm and/or Echoing Truth. In this matchup I would board out Spell Snare and Standstill.

Concerning the Standstill debate I am sure that Standstill belongs into this deck and that Confidant should only be played under special circumstances. You always have to be careful when dropping Standstill as you only should do so if you get an advantage out of it. With a top in play you can drop it in 90 % of all matchups on an empty board as you will draw plenty of Mishra's Factories, Wastelands and other cards that give you the advantage when Standstill is in play. Nevertheless I think Standstill is very good because most decks will have to break is quite soon because they can't operate at all without doing so.



What are the negative effects of the MU Dreadstill UR? pre-and post-side?

and which are the MU positive?


thanks

Concerning the matchup percentages of Dreadstill pre and postboard you should probably have a closer look at the opening post of this thread written by Roodmistah as I think it describes most of this deck's matchups quite well.

[abbeyroad]

Has anyone ever thought of playing URW dreadstill? It seems pretty good w/ the sideboard options of red plus meddling mage and STP for white.

Don't spam decklists.
-TOOL

[landstill101]

If you want to talk about changes from standards lists that's fine, but don't spam decklists.
-TOOL

[DKK]

Has anyone ever thought of playing URW
3x Ancient tomb

I'm curious about your reasoning to add this to your sideboard. Against what do you board it in and why?

[abbeyroad]

I board the 3 tormod's crypts against Ichorid, which consists of about 6% of my meta. I find Ichorid a difficult matchup without some form of graveyard hate. Also, tormod's crypts is helpful against aggro-loam and Threshold.

[Jak]

Ancient Tomb

Land

T: Add two colorless mana to your mana pool. Ancient Tomb deals two damage to you.

Huh?

[abbeyroad]

Ah sorry I meant tormod's crypt. I have no idea how I confused those two, but I suppose I managed.

[whienot]

I'm thinking Ancient Tomb is supposed to be Tormod's Crypt.... which makes waaaaaay more sense.


@abbeyroad Uwr has been done, to some success. Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=297887&postcount=888)

[BKclassic]

So does anyone else like the white version still? It is currently my favorite due to running actual removal and a steady mana base. The problem for me though is I can't decide between running Swords to Plowshares and Oblivion Ring. Swords to Plowshares is obviously awesome, but I am uncomfortable merely swapping 3 Spell Snare for 3 Swords (from the normal list) because this does not leave you with very many outs to counterbalance, especially when we don't have the luxury of Krosan Grip in the SB for games 2 and 3. So I've made a list that works 3 Spell Snare back into the deck:

21 Lands

Creatures: 7
4 Nought
3 Trinket Mage

Counters: 18
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 CB
4 Force of Will

Board Control: 4
1 EE
3 Swords to Plowshares

Draw: 10
2 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

But I think this list has some problems. I think 5 Stifle effects and 4 Noughts isn't perfect. I don't like 3 Trinket Mage with only a single EE and 2 Tops to search for, (with only 5 stifle effects, I will always have Noughts stuck in my hand). I could cut 2 Daze for a Trickbind and a Pithing Needle/EE, but adding Stifle effects makes Daze better so this doesn't seem optimal. Cutting a Trinket Mage for Needle/EE seems almost good, but having creatures that generate CA rather then take away from it is crucial.

If there was just one more open slot in the deck, I think this would be the "bees knees" as it were, but no such luck. A 3/3/3 split of Swords, Daze and Snare messes with things too much, so I have settled back on running 3 Oblivion Ring in the traditional Spell Snare slot. I really like the versatility it brings to the table and, most importantly, it beats Counterbalance.

So I am running the main deck suggested by Rood a long ways back:

21 Lands (3 Tundra)

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

2 Top
3 CB

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

3 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 EE

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
3 BEB
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle
1 EE

Any suggestion are welcome.
Maindeck- I run Pithing Needle because I have come to the conclusion that Aether Vial is the bane of the deck, way worse then Goblin Lackey, IMO.

SB- I am not sure if Echoing Truth is the best card for the SB, because I have Oblivion Ring already as a catch all, and I might cut it for a Plains and a Crypt. However, I want something that is good against Ancient Tomb decks.
I really like Meddling Mage. Between 4 Meddling Mage and 2 Pithing Needle, you can really limit an opponents ability to do anything with their deck.

Any thoughts?

[Rood]

That's the most annoying thing I found with White splash. Although you get to run StP you lose Spell Snare so your matchup to Counterbalance weakens considerably. So, with that in mind I decided to drop Daze entirely from the White splash for Spell Snare, since it IMO is a stronger card in alot of situations.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
5 [10E] Island (3)
3 [A] Tundra
3 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [US] Disenchant
SB: 2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [R] Circle of Protection: Red

That's the latest UW I'm working with Bocci. Also possible that Path to Exile may make the sideboard.

[Enigma]

Disenchant looks really weak when we need to sideboard agaisnt CB. I would maybe go with Oblivion ring or even Return to dust before running disenchant.

In this spot:

3x Oblivion ring
1x Return to dust

I'll test the wasteless MD if I could be satisfied with it.

PM

[Rood]

O-ring is a wasted slot in the sideboard, especially if you want to use it to hit Counterbalance. They will bring in Grips so I'd much rather have Disenchant, it's not as bad as you think...and isn't vulnerable to Stifle effects either.

As for the Vaults-I was testing them since without Daze the mana denial plan is alot weaker and the extra beaters could become quite useful.

[kiwi]

That's the most annoying thing I found with White splash. Although you get to run StP you lose Spell Snare so your matchup to Counterbalance weakens considerably. So, with that in mind I decided to drop Daze entirely from the White splash for Spell Snare, since it IMO is a stronger card in alot of situations.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
5 [10E] Island (3)
3 [A] Tundra
3 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [US] Disenchant
SB: 2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [R] Circle of Protection: Red

That's the latest UW I'm working with Bocci. Also possible that Path to Exile may make the sideboard.

I really like this version but I havent 3 mutavaults, I only have one, what do you think about playing 1 mutavualt and 2 faerie conclave rather than 3 mutavaults ?

[Wargoos]

I really like this version but I havent 3 mutavaults, I only have one, what do you think about playing 1 mutavualt and 2 faerie conclave rather than 3 mutavaults ?
Don't forget that Mutavault is pumpable by Factories since it also has the asemby-worker creature type,
U can use it directly it comes in to play, and its ability just costs :1: .
So Mutavault > Conclave.

[J.V.]

Don't forget that Mutavault is pumpable by Factories since it also has the asemby-worker creature type,
U can use it directly it comes in to play, and its ability just costs :1: .
So Mutavault > Conclave.

Don't ever play Faerie Conclave, the cipt will screw you over, your better off with 4 Factories, 1 Mutavault, and either wastes or basics in the other two slots than Conclaves.

[Atog]

Again question about siding agaist some deck, this time ITF. I played today agaist agaist that and games went 3-2 for my favor. I think that was ok result, since they have many md answer for nought. I side in relic, crypts and submerges. Should REBS bring in? Submerges were nice quite allways i get opportunity to play them (response to fetch, put tarmo top of deck. That make some noise on the other side of table :cool: ). I sided out dazes and something what i don't remember right now. What i SHOULD side out and put in? Thanks!

[deadlock]

Again question about siding agaist some deck, this time ITF. I played today agaist agaist that and games went 3-2 for my favor. I think that was ok result, since they have many md answer for nought. I side in relic, crypts and submerges. Should REBS bring in? Submerges were nice quite allways i get opportunity to play them (response to fetch, put tarmo top of deck. That make some noise on the other side of table ). I sided out dazes and something what i don't remember right now. What i SHOULD side out and put in? Thanks!

Considering the Ur build, depending on your sideboard, overall viable choices are:

- Blood Moon (very few basics they have, shuts down ther recursion lands)
- Pithing Needle (Deed, Recursion Lands, sometimes EE / Top)
- REB (Foremost countering / destroying CB)
- Relic (Goyf and Intuition)

Choose the ones you run an the number, i sugesst siding out:
1-2 Nought (They have quite a lot of removal)
2-4 Daze (against control they losse their value and this match is not a quick win, isnt it?)
If you bring in Blood Moon you could thin about cutting a Standstill.
Other ideas?

About the Uw build, these are the flaws i see:
- less basic land
- more reliant ont the splash colour, even preboard
- given STP is powerful, but most of the time more versatile cards get cut for it.
- in my opinion worse sideboard options:
Meddling Mage''s UW mana cost is the biggest contra. No sweeper spell against tribal decks and stuff like REB and Blood Moon add up.

[_erbs_]

Hello,


Originally Posted by Roodmistah
That's the most annoying thing I found with White splash. Although you get to run StP you lose Spell Snare so your matchup to Counterbalance weakens considerably. So, with that in mind I decided to drop Daze entirely from the White splash for Spell Snare, since it IMO is a stronger card in alot of situations.

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
5 [10E] Island (3)
3 [A] Tundra
3 [MOR] Mutavault

// Creatures
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [US] Disenchant
SB: 2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [R] Circle of Protection: Red

That's the latest UW I'm working with Bocci. Also possible that Path to Exile may make the sideboard.

I haven't tried the list above but it looks pretty solid (almost like playing a landstill deck). I have a different list and was hoping to hear out some comments about it.

Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Island
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
20

Creatures
2 Trinket Mage
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
9

Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
14

Utilities
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
17

SB
2 circle of protection: red
2 blue elemental blast
2 tividar's crusade
2 tormod's crypt
1 relic of progenitus
1 Krosan grip
2 disenchant
3 meddling mage

I want to push 1 more Sensei's Divining Top and drop 1 island, do you think 19 lands is too low ? and what other pros and cons do you all see in my build

Thanks

[Atog]

Hello,


I haven't tried the list above but it looks pretty solid (almost like playing a landstill deck). I have a different list and was hoping to hear out some comments about it.

I want to push 1 more Sensei's Divining Top and drop 1 island, do you think 19 lands is too low ? and what other pros and cons do you all see in my build

Thanks

Dropping 1 island is a bad idea. Just thinking that sceneratio when Blood Moon or Magus hitting table and you don't have then fetch/island or counter in hand. That would be quite GG. So, i would cut Tundra and Tropical for 2 more islands. Just for more stable manabase. Why Windswept Heath over Polluted Delta? You don't have any just? Then ei would drop 1 tarmo for trickbind. And just of your sideboard, Tivadar's Crusade? Really? Is goblins so popular on your meta? So my suggestions would look like this:

- 1x Tropical Island
- 1x Tundra
- 1x Tarmogoyf
- 3x Windswept Heath

+ 2x Island
+ 1x Trickbind
+ 3x Polluted Delta

[_erbs_]

Dropping 1 island is a bad idea. Just thinking that sceneratio when Blood Moon or Magus hitting table and you don't have then fetch/island or counter in hand. That would be quite GG. So, i would cut Tundra and Tropical for 2 more islands. Just for more stable manabase. Why Windswept Heath over Polluted Delta? You don't have any just? Then ei would drop 1 tarmo for trickbind. And just of your sideboard, Tivadar's Crusade? Really? Is goblins so popular on your meta? So my suggestions would look like this:

- 1x Tropical Island
- 1x Tundra
- 1x Tarmogoyf
- 3x Windswept Heath

+ 2x Island
+ 1x Trickbind
+ 3x Polluted Delta

Thanks for the suggestions
- Yeah i don't have polluted deltas
- Goblins are about 50% in our meta

Do you think 2 SDT would be good enough ?

[Atog]

Thanks for the suggestions
- Yeah i don't have polluted deltas
- Goblins are about 50% in our meta

Do you think 2 SDT would be good enough ?

If you draw enough often mage / top then they are fine :) But that third mage won't hurt you neither.

[Enigma]

Considering I use Muradin's list, what would be your SB plan against UGW Thresh? I really want the REB's for eventually Trygons. I want the extra EE for sure, and the Relics also.

SO:

+1x EE
+3x Relic
+2x REB

But.. what to side out? The Spell snare are obviously great, the Crucible could make Mishra's reccurent blockers... I would think siding out couple of Dreadnoughts.

What you guys think about it?

PM

PS: I added a third colored land to have access to EE @ 3. There is a Faerie stompy player lurking around and it's really good against him. + could be useful to have Firespout instead of pyroclasm with this 2nd splash.

[DKK]

On the draw you should board out the dazes because of the tempo-loss. On the play I think you can at least board 1 Trinket Mage out. For the rest I leave it to the UR players out there :)

[Atog]

Just trying to figure what is must have against ITF, relic and crypts are obvious but i looked the side and figured all but cop:red can side agaist them. Just won't be sure is that all needed, i don't think so. So, mages are good and stopping their loam- and v.stronghold engine yes? How about crucibles, recyclable mishras and mutavault are good chumpblockers but are they worth of siding in? If someone who has done some playtesting agaist ITF could enlighten me :) Thanks!

[whienot]

What about Dismantling Blow in the SB of the white spash? 3 mana disenchant for Counterbalance and will occasionally draw cards.

Though, EEs are our best weapon against Counterbalance.

[kroelai]

My deck:

1 academy ruins
3 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
3 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
4 island
-19-

4 dreadnought
4 dark confidant
3 trinket mage
-11-

4 force of will
3 daze
3 spellsnare
4 brainstorm
2 sensei's top
2 engeneered explosives
4 stifle
1 trickbind
1 crucible
4 standstill
3 counterbalance
-31-

Side
3 pyroblast
3 blue elemental blast
1 pithing needle
1 relic of prognicus
1 tormod's crypt
3 submerge
3 pyroclasm
-15-

[Atog]

My deck:


What about your deck? You want some thoughts of your deck or what? It seems to me pretty standard build, just different colors what usually sees. Is one volcanic enough in main? Just wondering if wasteland hits that and you don't draw a crusible or it don't resolve. Is academy ruins really necessary? And 19 mana sources that seems little low imo, not only because you run academy ruins as colorless source. Couple more lands won't hurt you :)

+1 Fetch
+1 Volcanic Island

[Muppet86]

My deck:

-15-

I don;t like the academy ruins and the all the other basics. You only have 1 volcanic and 4 basic islands. The great thing about this deck that it can survive a whole lot of mana disruption, like wastelands, blood moon (this is good for us) and back to basics. The list your playing makes this version a whole lot more funrable against decks that play those cards.

The single crucible isn;t a good idea as well. You don;t have any way of finding it, like with a trinket mage.

Futhermore, splashing black i would play thoughseizes. There brilliant in the current meta in Holland.

[RogueMTG]

I've been playing a Ugr build for a while now and I was wondering how often you all manage to get CB/Top online? In probably seven rounds or so I was only able to get it down once, though it was a house when it happened. Most of the time for me CB just gets pitched to FoW.

Instead of the normal 3/2 CB/Top split I was thinking of either bumping it to 4/3 for greater consistency (cutting probably a land + a daze) or cutting it altogether for other options (ie: spell snare/Crucible). Any thoughts?

[Bahamuth]

I don;t like the academy ruins and the all the other basics. You only have 1 volcanic and 4 basic islands. The great thing about this deck that it can survive a whole lot of mana disruption, like wastelands, blood moon (this is good for us) and back to basics. The list your playing makes this version a whole lot more funrable against decks that play those cards.

The single crucible isn;t a good idea as well. You don;t have any way of finding it, like with a trinket mage.

Futhermore, splashing black i would play thoughseizes. There brilliant in the current meta in Holland.

Having no way of finding a single card is by no means an argument not to run it. You don't run more because you don't have the room, but you can randomly find it, which is good, and you can board in more.

[Valtrix]

Instead of the normal 3/2 CB/Top split I was thinking of either bumping it to 4/3 for greater consistency (cutting probably a land + a daze) or cutting it altogether for other options (ie: spell snare/Crucible). Any thoughts?

4 Counterbalance is probably best I think. The fact is that it just wins so many games when it gets down, and if you get a multiple, oh well. The first is doing its job, and extras can always be used with force. You want it all the time. I'm not an expert on Dreadstill, but I feel like 2 tops is enough when you're running trinket mage, although I would probably prefer 3 so that you can get other things with mage more often. You play enough shuffle effects where extra tops won't really be dead, since you could just play and draw in response to a shuffle.

[abbeyroad]

The single crucible isn;t a good idea as well. You don;t have any way of finding it, like with a trinket mage.

*snip*

Also, the crucible often helps at random times. I am usually never disappointed to see one when I tested it.

If you have a problem with someone's post. Use the 'Report Post' button
-TOOL

[Jak]

Also, the crucible often helps at random times. I am usually never disappointed to see one when I tested it.

*snip*

Anyway, Crucible has been amazing for me. I strongly recommend one in the main and then one SB to help against TA, Sui Black, Pox, or even Stax. It kind of makes me want to run an Academy Ruins as the 22nd land, but that needs testing.

[landstill101]

As I'm trying this again since I seem to not be allowed to post a list but everyone else is aloud without having to put comment, this is my idea for a UBR list which has shown some promising results(but not worthwhile because it is on mws)

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [P2] Island (3)
2 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [U] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [NE] Daze
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FNM] Smother
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [SOA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [CH] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds


The main reason I choose black to add is because of dark confidant, I would like to try and put in some thoughtsiezes in the board but havnt found room.

[Rood]

There is this thing called a typo. Did you notice how the ";" and the apostrophe are right next to each other?

Anyway, Crucible has been amazing for me. I strongly recommend one in the main and then one SB to help against TA, Sui Black, Pox, or even Stax. It kind of makes me want to run an Academy Ruins as the 22nd land, but that needs testing.

Crucible is a powerhouse, I'm pretty sure it will eventually find a permanent spot in almost all Dreadstill lists.

@Landstill: I'd like to maybe see an extra Smother that list, possible even a full playset maindeck. You would surely have a savage mirror match edge with 4x Smother and Bobs maindeck =). Also, cut the Moons your manabase can't use they efficiently and -1 REB/BEB for a playset of E-plagues. Clasms can become more Crucibles maybe or E-truths ftw.

[BKclassic]

I gotta say, it seems like either Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon or Crucible of Worlds is right. Considering the degree to which they do the same thing and the disynergy between them, it seems like a wasted sideboard space to run both.

[Muradin]

Actually, Magus of the Moon and Crucible are not supposed to do the same thing. They have quite different mechanics that do have a completely different impact on the game. However you are right, that there is strong anti synergy between them.
Blood Moon's role is to be a game breaking threat against decks that have immediately lost the game in case you can resolve one. Such decks are mainly 4 colored control decks like 4 color Landstill or ITF. (both are unfavorable preboard)
One other function of Blood Moon is to disable the threat Krosan Grip is for this deck's game plan. If my opponent is splashing green and running 3-4 Krosan grip in his sideboard but no basic Forest, (for example Rgb Goblins) I think it is quite reasonable to sideboard the 2 Blood Moons we have got in this matchup. Our best threat in the goblin matchup is a fast Dreadnought. But they are able to handle it with Warren Weirding (sometimes) and Tin-Street Hooligan. Both of those Threats can be countered very well as they might have to cast them right into a daze if we can drop our Dreadnought early on and both have cc 2, which gives us the possibility to counter them using Spell Snare.

Krosan Grip is an uncounterable solution for Dreadnought and therefore simply negates our best card in this matchup. Blood Moon is very harmful for the goblin player because he loses all possibilities he has got to handle a 12/12 trampling artifact creature in a reasonable time. Therefore I am always boarding in Blood Moon if the goblin deck is Rgb as our Standstill plan is not so viable in this matchup because of our lack of spot removal. Actually if we can drop a Standstill on a clean board it is not so sure that we are going to win here, because they can keep us from killing them under Standstill for a long time with Wasteland/Port. When they eventually break standstill with 6-8 lands in play we will have a hard time winning those games.

Crucible shall win games where an early Dreadnought + stifle has only very little chances of hitting your opponent twice. Those are matchups where you will have to fight through a lot of removal in order to win. This is mostly against dedicated control decks. You only think that Blood Moon and Crucible do the same thing, because they do the same thing in some certain matchups: They win the game for you when they resolve.

Against UWB Landstill I wouldn't board Blood Moon because they typically have about 5 basic lands, that's just one less than we have. We can't cut them off a color with Blood Moon most of the time, so I wouldn't board it here.
Crucible with some Mishras Factories / Wasteland / Fetch land however wins this matchup easily.
Some decks that feature a lot of spot removal do however fall in both categories: They lose to Blood Moon because they play 4 colored and they lose to Crucible paired with our lands. In those matchups I will for sure board both, Crucible and Blood Moon as both of them are a bomb in this matchup. It doesn't matter whether Blood Moon and Crucible do have anti synergy as both of them will win for you when resolved. I'll first of all drop my crucible and have it countered by them. On the next turn I go for Blood Moon and then my goal is to resolve it at any cost.

[Atog]

Report from Legacy Utrecht "GPT Chicago" 01/09


Do you want post here your exact sideboarding strategics against decks you played there? So, these:

Ad Nauseam Storm
Team America
UWb Landstill
BW Aggro-Control
Ugb Landstill with Intuition/Loam
Imperial Painter

?

Thanks if you bother post those :)

[jazzykat]

WRT: Crucible/Bloodmoon I think it has been covered already but against landstill lists that only kill with lands (I think these are almost non-existent) you may want to board in both as resolving either is going to cause them serious issues.

[landstill101]

Crucible is a powerhouse, I'm pretty sure it will eventually find a permanent spot in almost all Dreadstill lists.

@Landstill: I'd like to maybe see an extra Smother that list, possible even a full playset maindeck. You would surely have a savage mirror match edge with 4x Smother and Bobs maindeck =). Also, cut the Moons your manabase can't use they efficiently and -1 REB/BEB for a playset of E-plagues. Clasms can become more Crucibles maybe or E-truths ftw.

Personally I've wished I'ved had atleast another smother or 2 and I'm trying to put them in and for the side, I havn't really tested it. Anyone else have anything to add to the maindeck???

[BKclassic]

Actually, Magus of the Moon and Crucible are not supposed to do the same thing. They have quite different mechanics that do have a completely different impact on the game. However you are right, that there is strong anti synergy between them.
Blood Moon's role is to be a game breaking threat against decks that have immediately lost the game in case you can resolve one. Such decks are mainly 4 colored control decks like 4 color Landstill or ITF. (both are unfavorable preboard)
One other function of Blood Moon is to disable the threat Krosan Grip is for this deck's game plan. If my opponent is splashing green and running 3-4 Krosan grip in his sideboard but no basic Forest, (for example Rgb Goblins) I think it is quite reasonable to sideboard the 2 Blood Moons we have got in this matchup. Our best threat in the goblin matchup is a fast Dreadnought. But they are able to handle it with Warren Weirding (sometimes) and Tin-Street Hooligan. Both of those Threats can be countered very well as they might have to cast them right into a daze if we can drop our Dreadnought early on and both have cc 2, which gives us the possibility to counter them using Spell Snare.

Krosan Grip is an uncounterable solution for Dreadnought and therefore simply negates our best card in this matchup. Blood Moon is very harmful for the goblin player because he loses all possibilities he has got to handle a 12/12 trampling artifact creature in a reasonable time. Therefore I am always boarding in Blood Moon if the goblin deck is Rgb as our Standstill plan is not so viable in this matchup because of our lack of spot removal. Actually if we can drop a Standstill on a clean board it is not so sure that we are going to win here, because they can keep us from killing them under Standstill for a long time with Wasteland/Port. When they eventually break standstill with 6-8 lands in play we will have a hard time winning those games.

Crucible shall win games where an early Dreadnought + stifle has only very little chances of hitting your opponent twice. Those are matchups where you will have to fight through a lot of removal in order to win. This is mostly against dedicated control decks. You only think that Blood Moon and Crucible do the same thing, because they do the same thing in some certain matchups: They win the game for you when they resolve.

Against UWB Landstill I wouldn't board Blood Moon because they typically have about 5 basic lands, that's just one less than we have. We can't cut them off a color with Blood Moon most of the time, so I wouldn't board it here.
Crucible with some Mishras Factories / Wasteland / Fetch land however wins this matchup easily.
Some decks that feature a lot of spot removal do however fall in both categories: They lose to Blood Moon because they play 4 colored and they lose to Crucible paired with our lands. In those matchups I will for sure board both, Crucible and Blood Moon as both of them are a bomb in this matchup. It doesn't matter whether Blood Moon and Crucible do have anti synergy as both of them will win for you when resolved. I'll first of all drop my crucible and have it countered by them. On the next turn I go for Blood Moon and then my goal is to resolve it at any cost.

I totally agree that they do different things and that one is typically more desirable then another in most match ups. However, I still think they largely due the same thing in that both are going to win you games against Control decks and decks with many non-basics. I would also like to point out that Magus of the Moon is still worth of consideration, IMO. Against decks with a lot of basics like UWx Landstill, I think he is still solid due to the fact that he turns sideways and will most likely eat removal for you.

Basically, what it comes down to is that I would just want to have more open space in my SB. Your SB at the GPT seems too homogeneous to me, but considering that you played Ugr Thrash, Ugr Dreadstill, 2x Landstill and Team America, this was clearly the right call.

I would just want Echoing Truth so as to have more answers for Tribal Aggro and Ancient Tomb/Chalice decks, as well as have something to bring in against Tombstalkers. I would also definantly want the 3rd Red Blast and possibly the 3rd Blue Blast. Also Aether Vial is a tremendous beating against this deck, and I can't imagine not running at least 1 Pithing Needle.

So yeah, I pretty much I am fan of Rood's most recent SB except with possibly Crucible in the Magus slot.

[Jak]

Blood Moon can still be worthwhile. As Muradin said, it is amazing as protection. For my Ur SB, I run...

3 BEB
3 REB
3 Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Moon
3 Echoing Truth

I have one Crucible main and have been trying one in the SB, but this is what I like. I might cut an Echoing Truth but the versatility is nice.

[BKclassic]

Blood Moon can still be worthwhile. As Muradin said, it is amazing as protection. For my Ur SB, I run...

3 BEB
3 REB
3 Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Moon
3 Echoing Truth

I have one Crucible main and have been trying one in the SB, but this is what I like. I might cut an Echoing Truth but the versatility is nice.

I am not entirely opposed to Blood Moon. I just think 2 Moons and 2 Crucibles SB is devoting too much sideboard space to beating specifically on non basic heavy decks and control. I think I would still stick with Magus, because you just know UW Standstill is going to waste a Sword on it. And if you play Blood Moon against them, your only real beatstick is going to be Trinket Mage (unless you think that Nought is going to stick). At any rate, 2 Moons SB and Crucible main sounds good to me.

[Muppet86]

Not to be a grammar NAZI, but why do you use semicolons with contractions? Semicolons are used to connect two independent clauses without a coordinating conjunction; semicolons are not used for signaling contractions. An apostrophe is the requisite punctuation to signal a contraction; for example, an apostrophe would be used for the word "don't." /end grammar rant
Also, the crucible often helps at random times. I am usually never disappointed to see one when I tested it.

Is it aloud to make a typo here?...my keyboard as some errors, and sometimes it makes the ;=' and viceversa. So sorry for the mistake, but come on, it's a small mistake! Don't make a big deal out of it.

Spelling and grammer should be double-checked, especially when posting in any DtB threads.
-TOOL

[Rood]

After some thinking of how to improve the mirror matchup of Dreadstill last night I started brainstorming the best ideas.

So, here is the newest creation that I have been testing to much success
Vindication Dreadstill

// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Underground Sea
2 [A] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [10E] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [TSP] Trickbind

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [OD] Divert

This list has been incredible solid in testing so far. My initial list was a difference of

-2 Trickbind -1 Dreadnought +3 Daze, but I found that I wasn't relying on Dreadnought as much and I wanted to increase the mana denial plan with 6 Stifles and 4 Vindicates/3 Wastelands.

The 4x Divert are you meta slot, they can also be 4x Plague in that slot as well. I know full well that one significant difference between this deck and Ur is the manabase...not as many basics. But the sheer power Confidant and Vindicate give you are more then enough to justify this idea.

[jazzykat]

@Rood: I was taking a similar tack but just doing a UWB confidant swap with goyfs and then trying to be more proactive with Thoughtseize and I didn't like the results.

My biggest complaint was never having enough cards in the 3 slot and you upped it by 1 or 2 which seems about right since this deck has a lot of manipulation power.

I love that you have Diverts in your meta slot.

Vindicate is the answer to tombstalker and counterbalance MD that I was looking for.

At this point I think this deck NEEDS meddling mage because you don't run STP MD and you can either chant STP or Grip and the opponents hate becomes trash.

Lastly, the lack of Daze is BALLSY that said have you considered that Daze could be the nut high since you now have, vindicate, wasteland and 6 stifle effects MD...? They may never have mana to pay...
Lastly, I can't say what you need to do with your manabase but if you are going to keep it like that have you considered cutting a spell snare for a MD crucible?

[Rood]

@Rood: I was taking a similar tack but just doing a UWB confidant swap with goyfs and then trying to be more proactive with Thoughtseize and I didn't like the results.

My biggest complaint was never having enough cards in the 3 slot and you upped it by 1 or 2 which seems about right since this deck has a lot of manipulation power.

I love that you have Diverts in your meta slot.
Vindicate is the answer to tombstalker and counterbalance MD that I was looking for.

At this point I think this deck NEEDS meddling mage because you don't run STP MD and you can either chant STP or Grip and the opponents hate becomes trash.

Lastly, I can't say what you need to do with your manabase but if you are going to keep it like that have you considered cutting a spell snare for a MD crucible?

Mage is a pretty interesting idea, although I'm not sure the extra help is absolutely necessary. The idea of Dismantling Blow/Disenchant seemed pretty good to me because of the fact it hits blood moon/back to basics over Mage. The manabase can't be overlooked with this deck, there has to be answers to nonbasic hate.

I really like Snare, but Crucible is a very solid card and would probally be good as a 1x over one.

Daze may be better then snare MD, you may be right with that. I haven't had enough testing to see yet so I'm not sure. If there were 4x Daze MD then the 4x Snare would replace divert

[Atog]

..


What would you cut from side to make room for Disenchant/Dismantling Blow? Diverts? I haven't test them so, i can't say are they first to cut cards from side.

[Rood]

Either Divert or BEBs most likely would be cut for them. Most of the other cards are locked I don't think they can be changed.

[jazzykat]

I just wanted to point out that BEB is an on color solution to bloodmoon that you actually have a basic island for. It is also REBable so I'm not sure if that's where you want to take it.

Also without the utitility of Trinket Mage a singleton Pithing Needle is pretty lonely in the board.

[SirManiak]

Hello all,

First time poster on source so please go easy on me.


I have been playing Ur Dreadstill for about a month now in prep for Chicago. The deck is good, but I believe that UW or Uwb would have a better chance of standing up to 15 rounds of play.

Here is the list I am currently working with. Thoughts and comments would be welcome as I'm not sure where to go from here, and Legacy is not a format that I normally play, so I'm not sure if all my cards here are optimal or if they are going to do what I want them to.

Thanks,
Maniak

Lands
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Island (1)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [TE] Wasteland

Creatures
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

Spells
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle

Sideboard
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [DS] Echoing Truth
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
1 [TE] Propaganda

[BKclassic]

Stuff

I am guessing that you know you are playing a slightly unconventional list, so I'll just point some things that may not have already occurred to you.

-4 Stifles, 4 Noughts, 0 Trickbind- You are probably going to have dead Dreadnoughts sitting in your hand a lot if you do this. Run some Trickbinds.

-1cc-22
2cc-7
3cc-3

Counterbalance is going to be weak. You need more 2 drops.

(Edit- an aside @ Rood- I am very intrigued by your white splash list, but the amount of 1 drops bothers me.)

-Enlightened Tutor- Due to the card disadvantage playing Nought is, I can't recommend more card advantage that is this card. It can grab Standstill or Counterbalance to make up for it, but I am not really a fan.

-Academy Ruins is jank.

-12 Blue sources is probably going to be too few, especially over 15 rounds.

-I would make the SB chants Hydroblasts. Meddling Mage is already good against combo, and answers to Blood Moon and Vexing Shusher can come in handy.

Edit #2- Here is my current White Splash list:

3 Tundra
6 Fetch
5 Island
4 Mishra' Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Engineered Explosives (maybe back 1 EE and 1 Needle since I have some Swords now)

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Hydroblast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds

[SirManiak]

Have you tested Ruins? cuz EE lock has won me games. I would almost rather go -1 waste +1 island than cut ruins.

The rest I can easily agree with as the list is still in planning phase. Has anyone had any success testing a Uwb list outside of MWS? I really feel like the deck wants Bob, and maybe Extirpate out of the side. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Rood]

Have you tested Ruins? cuz EE lock has won me games. I would almost rather go -1 waste +1 island than cut ruins.

The rest I can easily agree with as the list is still in planning phase. Has anyone had any success testing a Uwb list outside of MWS? I really feel like the deck wants Bob, and maybe Extirpate out of the side. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Yeah look on the last page. I posted a recent list UWB that had both Confidant and Vindicate maindeck that is extremely solid. You may want to go with that list considering your mirror matchup will improve and you may have that deck you want to last 15 rounds with.

[FoolofaTook]

Yeah look on the last page. I posted a recent list UWB that had both Confidant and Vindicate maindeck that is extremely solid. You may want to go with that list considering your mirror matchup will improve and you may have that deck you want to last 15 rounds with.

On the Vindication Dreadstill list: how do you manage with 2x SDT and no Trinket Mages? I understand that the Dark Confidants get you to things faster but I just see no inevitability to getting CounterTop up at all in that list. 2-ofs in a deck kind of come and go from round to round unless you have some way to dredge them up that is reliable. Isn't that list stronger with 3x Trinket Mage and 1x Engineered Explosives over the 4x Dark Confidant?

[KillemallCFH]

@Rodney, I like the Vindicate list a lot; it seemed to do really well in testing. A couple of random thoughts though: I'd really like to see the 3rd Top in there. Not quite sure what you'd cut, but running only 2 is kinda iffy. In the absence of K-Grip, Annul seems like a really solid SB option. 1 Mana? Check. Helps you win the CB war? Check. Stops troublesome Arties/Enchantments that Vindicate can't effectively deal with (EE, Deed and Survival come to mind)? Check. It's also really solid against ITF, which is one of the deck's harder matchups. With the somewhat increased focus on mana denial, Daze seems like it should really find a place in here. Spell Snare is really good, but Daze might have the edge over it. Not sure though. Some number of Crucibles in the main and/or side might be pretty good and give you an edge over control (though Annul helps in that regard too). The list is really tight though, so finding room for Crucibles probably won't work out.

[Atog]

@Rodney, I like the Vindicate list a lot; it seemed to do really well in testing. A couple of random thoughts though: I'd really like to see the 3rd Top in there. Not quite sure what you'd cut, but running only 2 is kinda iffy. In the absence of K-Grip, Annul seems like a really solid SB option. 1 Mana? Check. Helps you win the CB war? Check. Stops troublesome Arties/Enchantments that Vindicate can't effectively deal with (EE, Deed and Survival come to mind)? Check. It's also really solid against ITF, which is one of the deck's harder matchups. With the somewhat increased focus on mana denial, Daze seems like it should really find a place in here. Spell Snare is really good, but Daze might have the edge over it. Not sure though. Some number of Crucibles in the main and/or side might be pretty good and give you an edge over control (though Annul helps in that regard too). The list is really tight though, so finding room for Crucibles probably won't work out.

Have you been mana-screwed during testing? Just those 2 basics are my biggest concern, but they maybe be just enough. Have you played with sideboard games or without it? If yes, how it have been working for you, would you change something of Roodmistah current sideboard?

[Enigma]

I like your idea, but would change a couple o' things:

-4 Spell snare
+4 Daze

The reason looks obvious to me: 6 Stifle, 3-4 Vindicate, 3 Wasteland. Yeah.

Other 2 card I want:

+1 Crucible
+1 Top

By the fact I always play 61 cards, I can include one of those two. The other one, I would cut a Vindicate. I play this card in UWb landstill and I find it a bit mana intensive at moment, mostly when I have 2 in hands. So I would probably go with:

-1 Vindicate [EDIT: I think the 2nd Trickbind could be cut before Vindicate]

Other tweak I would like everyone to test it is a safer mana base. In UWb Landstill, I feel really confortable with the 2x Islands, 1x Plain, 1x Swamp and I might considere it in this list for -2 Underground Seas. I did a couple of first hand generator and it never screwed me to have a plain or a swamp in my opening instead of a U. Sea. You cannot keep a 1 land hand with those but it's anyway always risky to do so.

The SB: My biggest fear with Dreadstill is Landstill. So I would design the SB to fit against it:

+2 Crucible of Worlds,
+2 Tidehollow Sculler
+2 Meddling Mage

-1x Relic (I always side 3 against ITF, Thresh and Loam anyway)
-4x Divert
-1x Needle (too random at a 1 of) (for what I think)

The 4x 2/2's are for beating. MM chanting Swords and if there's a second, EE. I would take out: -2 Trickbind, -2 Dreadnought, -2 Daze. And going mishra & little guy beating. In addition of Dark confidant, this really looks promising.

+MM and Sculler are good cards against combo. If you never tested Sculler, please do so, it's wonderful.


I feel confidant about the Vindication direction of Dreadstill, so let's test those lists in our respectives Meta, It could probably solve some problems.

PM

[Sage]

I recently took my build of Ubw dreadstill to a 13 person tournament in Pittsburg last Saturday. I went 3-1 only loosing to Merfolk. Although my build was a bit different than the Uwb list preceding this post, I think Dreadstill not running red is a big mistake. Aggro decks are making a huge comeback lately, especially Merfolk which is a really bad matchup for this version of the deck regardless of how you play it (in my oppinion). The three decks I beat were Elf Survival (LD won here), white aggro, and UB Painter. I do think this deck has a really good game against most every other deck with the addition of Vindicate (amazing against hard to deal with permanents such as Plainswalkers). But, personally, I am probably switching to Ugr/Ur because of aggros recent numbers. Oh, for the record I ran 3xDreadnought/3xTombstalker and Tombstalker was AMAZING.

[SirManiak]

Sage, do you happen to have a list handy for comparison? If merfolk is a problem, maybe its time for Engineered Plague to make a comeback ( I hear its good against gobos too!). Is there any reason that the deck couldn't support it? Lord is the only fish that survives, and he shouldn't ever hit play anyways. Just a thought.

@Rood: I do like your list a lot. How does it do without EE? and should card #61 be a crucible?? and 1 in the board?

[Rood]

@Rodney, I like the Vindicate list a lot; it seemed to do really well in testing. A couple of random thoughts

-1 Vindicate [EDIT: I think the 2nd Trickbind could be cut before Vindicate]

Other tweak I would like everyone to test it is a safer mana base. In UWb Landstill, I feel really confortable with the 2x Islands, 1x Plain, 1x Swamp and I might considere it in this list for -2 Underground Seas. I did a couple of first hand generator and it never screwed me to have a plain or a swamp in my opening instead of a U. Sea. You cannot keep a 1 land hand with those but it's anyway always risky to do so.

The SB: My biggest fear with Dreadstill is Landstill. So I would design the SB to fit against it:

+2 Crucible of Worlds,
+2 Tidehollow Sculler
+2 Meddling Mage

-1x Relic (I always side 3 against ITF, Thresh and Loam anyway)
-4x Divert
-1x Needle (too random at a 1 of) (for what I think)

The 4x 2/2's are for beating. MM chanting Swords and if there's a second, EE. I would take out: -2 Trickbind, -2 Dreadnought, -2 Daze. And going mishra & little guy beating. In addition of Dark confidant, this really looks promising.

+MM and Sculler are good cards against combo. If you never tested Sculler, please do so, it's wonderful.


I feel confidant about the Vindication direction of Dreadstill, so let's test those lists in our respectives Meta, It could probably solve some problems.

PM
Daze is probally stronger, hasn't been tested.




I recently took my build of Ubw dreadstill to a 13 person tournament in Pittsburg last Saturday. I went 3-1 only loosing to Merfolk. Although my build was a bit different than the Uwb list preceding this post, I think Dreadstill not running red is a big mistake. Aggro decks are making a huge comeback lately, especially Merfolk which is a really bad matchup for this version of the deck regardless of how you play it (in my oppinion). The three decks I beat were Elf Survival (LD won here), white aggro, and UB Painter. I do think this deck has a really good game against most every other deck with the addition of Vindicate (amazing against hard to deal with permanents such as Plainswalkers). But, personally, I am probably switching to Ugr/Ur because of aggros recent numbers. Oh, for the record I ran 3xDreadnought/3xTombstalker and Tombstalker was AMAZING.

Yeah I'm starting to believe Merfolk may be worse for us than ITF. They are all unblockable once LoA hits, so Factory is completely useless. Also Merrow taps down Dreadnought and allows them to keep swinging even if we did land one. Not to mention Standstill is completely useless against them.

[Atog]

Just thinking black answer to merfolks and other rogues, Engineered Plague is obvious, but how about Infest? That does same than Pyroclams but cost just "b" more. But is that too much compared to plague? Infest just kills those Lord of Atlantis, Piledrivers, Goblin Kings and some elfs what plague won't hit (Viridian shaman). E. Plague is long term answer, but if you sweep board by Infest that maybe be just enought to win game. I'm going to test next week that plague vs. infest against merfolks atleast.

[nitewolf9]

I did some testing against merfolk with Team America, and it was horrendous game 1. I lost all 10 games. Then post board, I won 9 and lost 1 on a mull to 4. I can say this: Engineered Plague is an absolute beating for that deck. If you have any additional removal on top of plague they are in trouble. They usually only needed to have 2 or 3 dudes on the table at a time (plus their manlands), so while infest is good, they can simply not overextend into it. Plague sticks around and makes them answer it. If you want to beat them I think plague is the answer, especially if you are already packing swords and/or vindicate. With 1 plague you can just focus spot removal on reejery/lord. With 2 they lose.

[Sage]

SirManiak,

I don't have my list handy, but I'll say that I didn't run CB/top and instead ran 2x Vindicate and Spell Snare in it's place. I only won with Dreadnought twice in 8 total matches (3x 2-0's, 1x 0-2). Tombstalker was, as I said, amazing. I noticed in goldfishing that this deck fills the graveyard very fast, thus making Tomstalker quite easy to cast. I also wanted another few threats in the deck that weren't goyf because Submerge owns Dreadnought (major card disadvantage) if you run the forests. I only ran 3 Dreadnoughts because I want to use my Stifle effects early and if you do that you will quite often have a Dreadnought floating in your hand and not be able to get it down (4xStifle, 1xTrickbind). I only ran 3 Tombstalkers because you will only be able to reliably cast him early once.

The first loss to Merfolk was a double muligan going seccond and he landed an Aether Vial on turn one = gg. The seccond game was quite close, but he Stifled a critical EE @ 1 (he had two vials in play and only two small Merfolk) and that pretty much locked up the game for him as he soon after vialed in a Wakethrasher and beat me down (no swords =[ ).

As for Engineered Plague:
I had 4 in my SB as I thought it to be the easiest to play in a three color deck, but they aren't good enough against merfolk. Even if you land one, it only kills a couple of there guys, thus you need two to make them effective. But, even if you are lucky enough to land two, two lords ends your day unless you have a swords for one. Thus, I also pondered using Infest instead due to its taking down x/2's with one spell, but I didn't get to test it. I really think that the red splash (Firespout) is the better build for 15 rounds in this metta because gobs/merfolk/affinity are rising in popularity and Firespout takes down geese with threshold.

[Muradin]

Ur Dreadstill have very potent sideboard options in the Merfolk matchup. You have Red Elemental Blast, which is just awesome in this matchup and even more important Pyroclasm/Firespout. Eventually they don't even see it coming if you manage not to drop a Volcanic Island in game 1 and let them overextend into clasm.

For me Red hast the best cards to handle swarming strategies, most of whom are also unfavorable matchups and therefore should be your color of choice (probably in combination with green, for goyf) if your meta has a lot of aggro decks.

[Rood]

I have to agree strongly with what Muradin said, red is the strongest splash color against a meta of Aggro decks. REB is sooo good against merfolk it's insane, cards MVP all day.

[SirManiak]

I have to agree strongly with what Muradin said, red is the strongest splash color against a meta of Aggro decks. REB is sooo good against merfolk it's insane, cards MVP all day.

Well if this is the case then, Is there maybe a Urw build that would be the best of both worlds without devolving the deck?

[aTn]

I'm new to playing the deck, but I'd say Urg sounds better than Urw (IMO) in a meta with decent amounts of aggro (Merfolk, Elves and friends).

Access to Firespout and Goyf, which I guess tend to help in these match-ups, is in my opinion way better than access to StoP and Meddling Mage.

[KillemallCFH]

I did a bunch of testing with the Uwb Vindicate list on MWS yesterday, and it's really solid. The manabase sucks, unfortunately, but there really isn't much I can do about that besides run more lands (which may not be an awful idea). I was running:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [US] Island (3)
3 [B] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [NE] Daze
1 [TSP] Trickbind

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [B] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [US] Annul

Random thoughts:
As I said, the manabase sucks. The fact that Vindicate needs 2 splash colors is a huge pain in the ass, especially with a manabase of only 21 lands, 7 of which are colorless, and 2 of which are basic Islands. Still, the raw power of Vindicate (and StP) is worth the white splash methinks. Bob is insane. Like, holy shit. I don't think I'm ever going to run a nonblack Dreadstill list again after playing with him. I found myself winning even less games with Dreadnought with this build than with other builds. They sometimes clogged up my hand, and sometimes were completely superfluous as wincons. I think I'd be comfortable going down to 3, though I'm not certain that is the correct call. Daze is better than Spell Snare in this list. Free >> Not free, especially with the amazing mana denial this list is packing. Vindicate is really powerful. Really good as mana denial, and really good as an all purpose answer. As I said, it is kinda tough on the manabase, but it is manageable. Being a 3cc makes blind CB a bit weaker, but makes CB/Top stronger. I lost a game to TES because my blind CB flipped a Vindicate, where literally any other card would've stopped him from comboing, and given me another turn to lay the Top I had sitting in my hand. The SB was solid. Annul is really good at doing its job, and I was generally happier to have it than Divert, though Divert is certainly plausible. The only thing I'm unsure of is which card should be the 3-of. I really feel like I want all of them to be 4-ofs, but that obviously isn't feasible

[Rood]

I have to agree with many of the things you said. It's unavoidable the bad manabase this version has, you just have to except it and smash face with Vindicates really. Daze was getting added to the list over Snare for pretty obvious reasons. I see you cut a Trickbind for a 3rd Top...not sure if I agree with that one entirely. Don't want too many dead Dreadnoughts in hand...I think this version needs 6 Stifle effects.

@BOB...holy shit you people don't know why you're missing out on...Standstill+Bob as a draw engine is the nuts.

[sauce]

I have to agree with many of the things you said. It's unavoidable the bad manabase this version has, you just have to except it and smash face with Vindicates really. Daze was getting added to the list over Snare for pretty obvious reasons. I see you cut a Trickbind for a 3rd Top...not sure if I agree with that one entirely. Don't want too many dead Dreadnoughts in hand...I think this version needs 6 Stifle effects.

@BOB...holy shit you people don't know why you're missing out on...Standstill+Bob as a draw engine is the nuts.

why even run dreadnoughts, you are almost in landstill territory here...

[jazzykat]

why even run dreadnoughts, you are almost in landstill territory here...

Because the threat of winning in 2 turns is sometimes greater than actually winning in 2 turns.

[BKclassic]

why even run dreadnoughts, you are almost in landstill territory here...

Also, you need something to do with card advantage the Standstill (and Bob) give you. You can devote to either trying to lock your opponent down or winning. Also, if you have locked your opponent out of the game with Stifles/Waste, a quick win is best.

[Griever9977]

Out of curiosity kill, would you run Path to Exile in place of the Swords in your board now that Conflux is out? I'm testing it and I'm not entirely sure if it's better or not.

[BKclassic]

Out of curiosity kill, would you run Path to Exile in place of the Swords in your board now that Conflux is out? I'm testing it and I'm not entirely sure if it's better or not.

I would only run Path to Exile if you already running 4 Swords. Path + Daze/Stifle do not equal synergy.

[Rood]

The more and more I've been testing the different splash variants the more I can say that Ur(x) has held up the strongest. Dreadstill has little answers for swarm aggro which has seen a heavy rise in the meta as of late. Taking this deck into a very large scene (GP) I can say I'd be scared without some form of heavy sweeper such as Pyroclasm or Firespout. Ugr is as good as ever right now I personally am surprised not many people are playing it right now. Uw is kinda meh at the moment. It's a hit or miss splash to me.

[Enigma]

I've taken Vindication list to a local tournament yesterday and completly crap out, loosing to: Death and Taxes, Domain zoo and Aggro-Loam.

Yup, that wasn't cool at all.

[jazzykat]

I have taken the Vindication list and swapped out the CB/Top package for 4 Meddling Mage and 1 CoW (3/3 Tundra/Sea). It's actually really funny to play. It plays like Dreadstill, or sometimes landstill, and sometimes a weird fish deck. When you remove the Dreadnoughts for swords in G2 people sit with a lot of dead artifact hate in their hand and you can just mage their removal or counter it and beat with Wizards!

[Arsenal]

How have you guys found the Armageddon Stax (traditional list, not the Moat/Humility/Elspeth list) matchup?

[BKclassic]

How have you guys found the Armageddon Stax (traditional list, not the Moat/Humility/Elspeth list) matchup?

I find that as long as you draw your counters, its not too bad. I find that mostly you just need to stop Crucible and Trinisphere from resolving. Chalice @ 1, Ghostly Prison, Magus of the Tabernacle, Armageddon and Smokestack are much more manageable if those first two bombs don't resolve. If you have a Crucible main deck, its obviously a house. Your Wastelands are a house and Stifling Flagstones can catch your opponent off guard sometimes when it is sac'ed to Smokestack.

And if they don't get a broken start, sometimes you can just go StifleNought->Daze something->win.

[Arsenal]

I've been finding CotV, 3sphere, and O. Ring all to be problematic. And once they resolve, it's really, really difficult to win.

[BKclassic]

I've been finding CotV, 3sphere, and O. Ring all to be problematic. And once they resolve, it's really, really difficult to win.

On CotV- if they go first and just play Ancient Tomb-> Chalice and your hand was Brainstorm, Spell Snare, Stifle and Dreadnought, this does indeed suck. But if you can just resolve a Standstill before things get too out of hand, or you can respond wasting their Tomb or City, this can really help you out. Or if you just have Daze in hand for the Crucible they are about to play.

3sphere- If they are on the play and go Tomb->Diamond->Trini and you have no Force, you are in trouble. Hopefully this won't happen every time. If you were on the play, try and get Standstill down.

O-ring-Stifle it!

[J.V.]

Also, E.E. @ 0>Chalice of the Void. Play it out in those matchups as quickly as you can.

[scrow213]

Also, E.E. @ 0>Chalice of the Void. Play it out in those matchups as quickly as you can.

Against you guys I always try to push through a Trinisphere before Chalice, so you can't drop EE@0. I hate EE though.

[The Ocho]

Against you guys I always try to push through a Trinisphere before Chalice, so you can't drop EE@0. I hate EE though.

You can play EE for zero through a 3-sphere. You just need to play it off of a combination of 3 factory/waste.

[scrow213]

You can play EE for zero through a 3-sphere. You just need to play it off of a combination of 3 factory/waste.

Well yeah, but given the numbers you can run of each, combined with my Wastelands/Ghost Quarter and Armageddons (hopefully), I can make it tough to come up with 3 colorless lands. That's the plan, although I can struggle with that deck at times. The nuts plays when I am staring down a 12/12 Trample just sucks.

[Atog]

Against you guys I always try to push through a Trinisphere before Chalice, so you can't drop EE@0. I hate EE though.

That's not true. 3x Wasteland/Mishra's factory produce 3x colorless so there you go EE@0. That is also diversion around resolved CoV@0.

[Rood]

You know guys if you really are having issues with Geddon stax in your meta simple solution for those who play red splash

Hammer Mage

[SirManiak]

So after testing the Ubw build with vindicate, I have come to two conclusions:

1) Bob is a house, no doubt about it.

2) Against the quicker aggro decks in the format, Vindicate is just not enough. I would much rather recur EE.

so where am i going with this? Ubr, going to put a list together and post it later.

Maniak

[Atog]

UBR-dreadstill.deck

How were that working for you? Confidant is awesome yes, but did you switch that version to UGR or what?

[J.V.]

I may be switching to it, I expect a lot of aggro at the GP though, so I'll probably be playing Ugr For Goyf and Firespout, in 30-50 player tournaments, I would probably play Ubr now.

[Atog]

So I've piloted Dreadstill to a first place finish at the GP Chicago Trial. There were 156 players as I was told and I was playing an Ur variant that is very similar to Roodmistah's build.


You don't face any Enchantress during last tournament? Just thinking what we have against Enchantress? Those BEB maybe work against Words of War but thats about it. Or is our plan just mulligan to fast nought and protect it couple turns until win? That won't always happen, since there is enought threads you want to counter, example: Choke, Moat, Solitary Confinement, City of Solitude, Runed halo and maybe something else too. There maybe be option to cut couple Crucibles from side and put couple Echoing Truths on that slot?

[Griever9977]

You don't face any Enchantress during last tournament? Just thinking what we have against Enchantress? Those BEB maybe work against Words of War but thats about it. Or is our plan just mulligan to fast nought and protect it couple turns until win? That won't always happen, since there is enought threads you want to counter, example: Choke, Moat, Solitary Confinement, City of Solitude, Runed halo and maybe something else too. There maybe be option to cut couple Crucibles from side and put couple Echoing Truths on that slot?

Well, in my meta at least. Enchantress isn't that big. So beating it isn't much of a concern. As for our best answers, I'd say it depends on the splash, but for the most part. Our countermagic is going to be our best solution. Also recurring EE is another good way to deal with it. At least in the 3c version we can deal with most of those. Except Moat. Not sure what we can do about that.

For the Green splash Tranquility works wonders. Or for any of them. If you're really that concerned. Wash Out could be in the board.

[Atog]

Well, in my meta at least. Enchantress isn't that big. So beating it isn't much of a concern. As for our best answers, I'd say it depends on the splash, but for the most part. Our countermagic is going to be our best solution. Also recurring EE is another good way to deal with it. At least in the 3c version we can deal with most of those. Except Moat. Not sure what we can do about that.

For the Green splash Tranquility works wonders. Or for any of them. If you're really that concerned. Wash Out could be in the board.

We just have a little legacy meta, about 25 people coming, so with my luck i get paired against Enchantress even there is one or two coming :confused:

[whienot]

The green splash is best against enchantress. Enchantress has been a concern in my meta and Reverent Silence/Tranquility is a beating. (Just make sure to counter Replenish)

[Griever9977]

The green splash is best against enchantress. Enchantress has been a concern in my meta and Reverent Silence/Tranquility is a beating. (Just make sure to counter Replenish)

Hadn't thought of Silence. That one's super good. Especially since the life gain isn't too much of a concern with a 12/12 trampling beater pounding face.

[raptorcardz]

I have some trouble against aggro-loam. Once a threat hits the table (and they have plenty) it can be over quickly.

I am considering making modifications to my deck. Right now I am running the standard U/R deck, red for sideboard. I could go U/R/W for swords to plowshares and it would be nice to hit 3 with engineered explosives but then I am more susceptible to non-basic land hate.

Any suggestions?

[BKclassic]

I have some trouble against aggro-loam. Once a threat hits the table (and they have plenty) it can be over quickly.

I am considering making modifications to my deck. Right now I am running the standard U/R deck, red for sideboard. I could go U/R/W for swords to plowshares and it would be nice to hit 3 with engineered explosives but then I am more susceptible to non-basic land hate.

Any suggestions?

Hmmm,

Well Hydroblast kills Countryside Crusher and Relic kills Terravore. Spell Snare and EE can deal with Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. Plus they don't have many outs to your Dreadnoughts. So my advice is try and practice it a bit more, the match up shouldn't be too bad.

With that said, I present you with some links:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11607&highlight=dreadstill
This is Roodmistah's Source tourney report (Ur version), which includes a match against Aggro loam and his sideboarding plan against it.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11693&highlight=dreadstill
This is Klaus's 3 color list and tourney report. He has a match against Aggro Loam, too.

[AngryTroll]

With an older version of Dreastill running just UR (or Urw), running a Relic of Progenitus or several to fetch with Trinket Mage seems really good.

Great against: Thresh, Aggro Loam
Good against: Survival, Ichorid, Stax and Landstill, (randomness: 43 Land, Cephalid Breakfast, Reanimator)
Cantrip against: Merfolk, Slivers, randomness (burn, Elves!, etc), Painter, the rest of the format


True, 2 colorless is a poor cantrip. But winning matchups that you have no business winning is awesome. If you run Trinket Mage, I'd run at least one Relic main.

[SirManiak]

Does anyone have a good 4 color list? I can't seem to find the one that I've heard some people talking about