[Deck] Goblins

[namrufmot]

Gobolord...you seem to have done more testing than most people here. Can you show me what you think the "ideal" SB would be for a typical meta? Also, please tell me which decks you would SB those cards in for. Everyone seems to have suh a variety of opinions. I'd like to take your and test them out.

[feline]

The main thing would probably be to run some 1 of's in the sideboard for Goblin matron targets, like a Tuktuk scrapper / Tin Street Hooligan for opposing artifacts, like Jitte/Batterskull etc, Another Stingscourger for those Show and Tell matchups. I also run 1 Vexing Shusher in the sideboard because I hate blue when playing goblins enough to run it in addition to the Cavern of souls, Goblin Lackey & Aether Vial I also run some Tarfire because they help against some match ups, especially when nuking a Stoneforge Mystic before it can use it's ability to a Batterskull. I also have a Goblin King in the sideboard in addition to 1 maindeck Goblin Chieftain because of the +1/+1 against Engineered plague and the mountain walk might help in some match up's.

After that is probably the 2 most obvious things you want to be able to answer, so run some amount of graveyard hate & anti combo hate, things like Grafdigger's cage (Since it can also be used against opposing Green Sun's Zenith) or Faerie Macabre since you can also Aether Vial it in if you for some reason need that option of a 2/2 Faerie Rogue flyer, Go with Surgical Extraction since it's essentially "free" (2 life) & nets all copies from their deck/hand/graveyard, go with Tormod's crypt since it's actually free, go with Relic of Progenitus since it draws you a card, go with Leyline of the void since it start's in play when in the opening hand, though it also means getting stuck with them as you draw into them. Etc Etc Etc, every anti-graveyard card has it's benefits & drawbacks.

As far as anti combo goes, I am mono red, so I don't have the discard route of things like Duress Thoughtseize etc. So I just use Mindbreak trap.

[namrufmot]

Feline, have you tried Thorns or Chalice to stop combo?

I am leaning towards Faeries since its free and they cant counter it. Can a well-timed faerie shut down a renaimator or dredge deck? Or do they still have a good chance to stabilize from it? <----I've never used it.

How exactly does Minbreak stop combo? What permanents do you hit with it?

[Ace/Homebrew]

How exactly does Minbreak stop combo? What permanents do you hit with it?

for reference: Mindbreak Trap and Tendrils of Agony

I am unfamiliar with any application for MBT outside of stopping storm combo. This becomes apparent when analysing the card. Storm doesn't win unless multiple spells are played. MBT becomes free as the storm player "goes off". Once the storm player resolves their storm card, you would need a separate counterspell to void each copy. Before Flusterstorm this was not possible. So Wizards made MBT exile any number of spells.
There are 2 factors that prevented MBT from hosing storm like Wizards had hoped it would... First is that it ONLY shuts down storm. Second is that good storm players expect some sort of fight game 2 and will wait to go off after they Duress or Thoughtseize it from your hand.


Constructing a sideboard is an art but as in all of magic, it is subject to a bit of luck. You can do all the research and nail the % of decks in a meta and build your sideboard accordingly and then play rogue decks for the first 3 rounds. You could never draw the hate or mull looking for it into unplayable hands...
Metagames also vary depending on the country you play in (or even the region of the country).

For the sake of discussion, I'll treat your question as though you asked it generally.

Most boards will contain a minimum of 4 graveyard hate. The gy hate is varied and there are arguments for and against all of them.
You will also find 2-4 pieces of additional removal. This is typically Pyrokinesis for Goblin lists. This improves the match-up against other creature based decks.
Next are your silver bullet goblins. Usually 2-3 of these.
That's 8-11 of your 15.
The rest is generally meta and play-style dependent. What decks could you beat if you had a little help or some specific hate? It helps if these cards are broad answers that have application against a wide range of lists.

It is important to realize that you cannot make Goblins > 50% for all match-ups post board. It is generally a wasted effort to do so. Goblins is bad against combo. It's the nature of the deck in the same sense that combo is weak against Force of Will. It just is. If you dedicate 15 cards against storm combo you *might* beat it, but at the risk of losing others matches because you didn't have room to hate them. This is why Chalice of the Void is a good card for Goblins in the board. It hinders RUG which is a DTB and something you will likely face. It also has applications against Burn, Zoo, U/R Delver, Affinity, Belcher, ANT, TES, and other combo decks playing Lotus Petal and Lion's Eye Diamond.

[namrufmot]

I'm willing to give a maxmium of 5 slots in my SB to graveyard hate. Which combination do you prefer and why?

[jrw1985]

I'm willing to give a maxmium of 5 slots in my SB to graveyard hate. Which combination do you prefer and why?

I've been doing a project as late where I've been compiling the decklists of high-performing Goblin decks into a spreadsheet and averaging out the card counts across the decklists. Today I went and included the two Goblin decks that made Top 8 at Gencon (both from tournaments of ~350 players). When I averaged out their decklists into the other lists (extending back to the release of M13) the averaged decklist looked like this:

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
6 Mountain
5 fetchlands
1 Dual land

Sideboard
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Gilded Drake
1 Goblin King

So, to answer your sideboard question about 5 pieces of GY hate...

2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Aside from being useful against GY recursion decks these pieces also have a number of other applications.
2 Relic of Progenitus - Shrinks Goyf and Mongoose against RUG Delver
1 Faerie Macabre - Removes High Tides in response to Timespiral and rituals in response to Past in Flames without building Storm count
1 Surgical Extraction - Removes Intuition targets
1 Grafdigger's Cage - Shuts down GSZ and Snapcaster

[feline]

I like how you analyzed the averages of the deck, I do stuff like that and look at stuff like that like crazy. I noticed the rise in Krenko since it has come out so I now run one myself, tonight I played goblins as well and was lucky enough to go 4 - 0 with it, beating out a U/W miracle deck that had some bad luck with looking at their top 3 a billion times and just not getting what they needed, then went against a maverick type deck splashing black for Dark Confidant, then a half Painter's stone half Scepter chant type deck, and then against merfolk in the finals.

Things to note for the night, Rishadan port is still awesome, and Krenko is definitely staying in. Had a game where I could only attack with 2 creatures a turn, but with a Krenko out I just kept making more goblins anyway, in the end I had out over 70 goblins, lol.

[supachai]

It's pretty cool to see the averages of all the top decks, but you have to take it with a grain of salt. Consider for a second the 2 Chalices in the board. I think most lists run 0 or 3-4, averaging out to 2. I'm also not sure about running that many singletons in the main...I think there would be different lists focused on different things, and that all averages out to 1-ofs. Still, props for doing that, it is appreciated.

As for gravehate, I agree that having 2-4 different cards is good. It makes it harder for them to Therapy, and it can provide a more varied attack on their graveyard, making it harder for them to play around.

[GoboLord]

Gobolord...you seem to have done more testing than most people here. Can you show me what you think the "ideal" SB would be for a typical meta? Also, please tell me which decks you would SB those cards in for. Everyone seems to have suh a variety of opinions. I'd like to take your and test them out.

Ok, to answer your question we first have to clarify what "the typical meta" is.
In my oppinion there are 2 "big metas" - the American meta and the European meta. The past has shown that those metas are quite different form each other (it appears to me that Americans tend to run more "netdecked" lists, while Europeans like 'experimental' decklists). So, when talking about "typical meta" you have to know where you live. For the American meta the "DTB" section of this board usually gives a good sketch of what decks you will likely see on tournaments. However, for the first time since I'm into the format the meta of boths regions (America and Europe) seem to quite equal. This means that we have the most diverse meta I've ever seen right now. This important to keep in mind.
Now, why did I give you this lame introduction? I find it important to keep the above mentioned DIVERSITY in mind when it comes to deckbuilding. Someone who usually plays "big" tournaments will likely NOT face the same decks twice on one day. That's the status quo of legacy.
This surely means that there is no such thing as an "ideal sideboard". Your sideboard constructipn should take into account (1) the meta game, (2) your maindeck and (3) your playstyle. So what I write next is not "the truth" or "the best sideboard" or anything close - it's just my (educated) oppinion.

SIDEBOARD:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Excplanations:

Leyline
No matter how often I though about it or how often I tested other graveyard hate (and believe me, I thought about this A LOT) it always comes down to this: If you can spend 4 slots on graveyard hate, fill them with Leylines, because it's without any doubt the best graveyard hate available. It's as simple as this: If you need graveyard hate it's only because you can't win given MUs without it. If you can't win those MUs without graveyard hate there is no point in running anything other than the best card available. e.g. You don't win against Dredge/Reanimator/Lands/younameit with 4 Faerie Macabres drawn on Turn 5 - you need them on your opening hand. The "mulligan agrument" which is supposed to speak against Leylines is not valid: Goblins is agruably the deck that is least affected by frequent mulligans. There is simply no other legacydeck that has good 5-card-openings - we are the only ones. So, son't be afraid of taking mulligans into hatecards in general when you will otherwise lose the game.

Chalice
This one aims at the DIVERSITY of the metagame. Chalice is a surprising sideboard choice for Goblins and will be unexpected for most players. It is just those 4 cards you have to beat this "DIVERSITY". You will always see an random Burn-player or an random Elves-deck on any tournament. Even Rouge strategies tend to be glue-ed together by cantrips and other cheap spells. There is just no denying it: Chalice is THE perfect sideboard card for Goblins as it does not disrupt our strategy the slightest.

Sulfuric Vortex
This one is a meta-call and I can see it being cut in near future. Right now it's just the perfect card to deal with lifelinking Batterskulls, annnoying board-sweepers (e.g. Terminus) and this occasional Rockdeck (Kitchen Finks, Ooze) and Punishing Fire-engine. Being an enchantment means that it is hard to get rid of. It adds up to our strategy against any control deck as it deals the remaining damage that we couldn't deal with our usual racing-strategy.

Pithing Needle/Null Rod
Needle is another card that credits the DIVERSITY. This card is not just flexible as hell, but it is also the best answer to the decks that run Batterskull and Jitte right now. I have explained elsewhere that “conventional” artifact hate in form of Goblins (Tuktuk, TSH, Tinkerer) are terrible cardchoices if you are aiming at equipments. The two “big” decks that feature equipments are Maverick and Stoneblade. In those MUs Pithing Needle has so many applications – it’s not even funny. As for Null Rod: this one card shuts down each and every card in Stoneblade and UW miracle that is scary: Engineered Explosives, Jitte, Batterskull, Sensei’S Divining Top and Vedalken Shakels.

Sharpshooter
This guy is also awesome against many random strategies (like Elspeth, Bitterblossom, Thopter Foundry) while wrecking havoc on more popular decks (Goblins, Elves, Empty the Warrens). As you can see he is also meant prepare the deck for many unexpected strategies.
Krenko
I’m not decided on this slot yet, but I figured out that basically any creature-based strategy will be crushed by an avalanche of Goblin tokens if they can’t handle Krenko immediately.

So, as you can see, the sideboard I’m currently running is build to fight archetypes and strategies, and is not per se designed to crush specific decks.

[I am the brainwasher]

With Delver of Secrets beeing near unbeatable and the ridiculously bad Merfolk matchup, I strongly recommend this guy:

http://s.mtgprice.com/sets/Planeshift/img/Slingshot%20Goblin.full.jpg

I test those currently as a solid 3-of in the sideboard. Beware the predicter of the future, Slingshot Goblin it is.

[Cleston]

about leyline of the void, have anyone actually done the math for finding it either on your opening hand or a mulligan to 6 or a mulligan to 5 or a mulligan to 4?

(I personally wouldn't go below 4... going below 5 is too much risk already)

I'm trying to come up with the numbers... I'll post as soon as I have something solid.

[GoboLord]

about leyline of the void, have anyone actually done the math for finding it either on your opening hand or a mulligan to 6 or a mulligan to 5 or a mulligan to 4?

(I personally wouldn't go below 4... going below 5 is too much risk already)

I'm trying to come up with the numbers... I'll post as soon as I have something solid.

3 Leylines
Without Mulligan: 36,89%
Mull 6: 31,33%
Mull 5: 25,88%
Mull 4: 20,52%

4 Leylines
Without Mulligan: 49,18%
Mull 6: 41,78%
Mull 5: 34,50%
Mull 4: 27,36%

[BWM]

3 Leylines
Without Mulligan: 36,89%
Mull 6: 31,33%
Mull 5: 25,88%
Mull 4: 20,52%

4 Leylines
Without Mulligan: 49,18%
Mull 6: 41,78%
Mull 5: 34,50%
Mull 4: 27,36%

So, when mulliganing into it:
3 Leylines:
Hand of 7: 36.89% chance of Succes
Hand of 6: 56.66% chance of Succes
Hand of 5: 67.88% chance of Succes
Hand of 4: 74.47% chance of Succes

4 Leylines:
Hand of 7: 49.18% chance of Succes
Hand of 6: 70.41% chance of Succes
Hand of 5: 80.62% chance of Succes
Hand of 4: 85.02% chance of Succes

[ScatmanX]

With Delver of Secrets beeing near unbeatable and the ridiculously bad Merfolk matchup, I strongly recommend this guy
<3

About Leylines, does anyone have any numbers considering that you play 4 Leylines + 2 Serum Powder? I'm not that good at percentages, so if someone could do it, it would be great.
Thanks.

[Cleston]

So, when mulliganing into it:
3 Leylines:
Hand of 7: 36.89% chance of Succes
Hand of 6: 56.66% chance of Succes
Hand of 5: 67.88% chance of Succes
Hand of 4: 74.47% chance of Succes

4 Leylines:
Hand of 7: 49.18% chance of Succes
Hand of 6: 70.41% chance of Succes
Hand of 5: 80.62% chance of Succes
Hand of 4: 85.02% chance of Succes

yeah, I came to the same results, except that I went further and did a test for mulligan into 1 as well.

There's a 9,06% probability you will not find it even after mulliganing all the way to one card.

I have the excel file if anyone is interested in making experiments with other cards and combinations as well ;)

[jrw1985]

There ought to be a Stats thread on the Source where people can get their draw percentages...

[Ace/Homebrew]

There's a 9,06% probability you will not find it even after mulliganing all the way to one card.

I'm fairly certain this is bad math...

If I flip a coin there is a 50% chance it comes up heads.
If I flip it again there is a 50% chance it comes up heads.

You cannot take those two sentences and then say that there is a 100% chance a coin will flip to heads after two flips...

Similarly you cannot add all of your percentages together to say what chance you have of mulling into Leyline if you go all the way to 1 card. As a proof, Start with a hand of 10 cards. Then do your math. If your percentage says you have over 100% chance of mulling into hate when you go to one then you've just proven your math is bad.

[Cleston]

I'm fairly certain this is bad math...

If I flip a coin there is a 50% chance it comes up heads.
If I flip it again there is a 50% chance it comes up heads.

You cannot take those two sentences and then say that there is a 100% chance a coin will flip to heads after two flips...

Similarly you cannot add all of your percentages together to say what chance you have of mulling into Leyline if you go all the way to 1 card. As a proof, Start with a hand of 10 cards. Then do your math. If your percentage says you have over 100% chance of mulling into hate when you go to one then you've just proven your math is bad.

in the coin flip example, the chance of finding a heads in at least one of the two flips would be (1/2) + (1/2*1/2)

and in the leyline example, here was my reasoning:

Leyline / Hand
0,49 in 7
0,42 in 6
0,35 in 5
0,27 in 4
0,20 in 3
0,13 in 2
0,07 in 1

NO Leyline / Hand
0,51 not in 7
0,58 not in 6
0,65 not in 5
0,73 not in 4
0,80 not in 3
0,87 not in 2
0,93 not in 1

Chance / Description
0,49 in 7
0,21 not in 7 AND in 6
0,10 not in 7 AND not in 6 AND in 5
0,05 not in 7 AND not in 6 AND not in 5 AND in 4
0,03 not in 7 AND not in 6 AND not in 5 AND not in 4 AND in 3
0,02 not in 7 AND not in 6 AND not in 5 AND not in 4 AND not in 3 AND in 2
0,01 not in 7 AND not in 6 AND not in 5 AND not in 4 AND not in 3 AND not in 2 AND in 1
0,09 not at all

notice that each AND means a multiplication, the chance for not finding leyline times the chance for finding it on a new hand.

is it clear enough now? I'm fairly convinced of the numbers. For sure after the first event happens (means: mulligan to six) the next events are totally independent, and you should not mulligan believing your chance is actually higher on the next try.


EDIT: it is also interesting to notice that after the mulligan to 4, your chances are 1 out of 5, and add almost nothing to the net result. The chances for finding a leyline until the mulligan to 4 are 0,86, and the chances of finding it all the way up to one card is 0,91.

[Marshal]

So, when mulliganing into it:
3 Leylines:
Hand of 7: 36.89% chance of Succes
Hand of 6: 56.66% chance of Succes
Hand of 5: 67.88% chance of Succes
Hand of 4: 74.47% chance of Succes

4 Leylines:
Hand of 7: 49.18% chance of Succes
Hand of 6: 70.41% chance of Succes
Hand of 5: 80.62% chance of Succes
Hand of 4: 85.02% chance of Succes

ehh?!
The where did you get this.
To calculate the probability you need to use a thing called a hypergeometric distribution.
Here is a link of an online calculator

http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

Population size - number of cards in deck
Number of successes in population - number of cards that you want to have in your opener
Sample size - number of card you draw
Number of successes in sample - 1

So for a 60 card deck, with 4 cards tha you must draw in your opener you have a probability of succes (1 or more) of 0,399 % percent.

[namrufmot]

Ok, to answer your question we first have to clarify what "the typical meta" is.
In my oppinion there are 2 "big metas" - the American meta and the European meta. The past has shown that those metas are quite different form each other (it appears to me that Americans tend to run more "netdecked" lists, while Europeans like 'experimental' decklists). So, when talking about "typical meta" you have to know where you live. For the American meta the "DTB" section of this board usually gives a good sketch of what decks you will likely see on tournaments. However, for the first time since I'm into the format the meta of boths regions (America and Europe) seem to quite equal. This means that we have the most diverse meta I've ever seen right now. This important to keep in mind.
Now, why did I give you this lame introduction? I find it important to keep the above mentioned DIVERSITY in mind when it comes to deckbuilding. Someone who usually plays "big" tournaments will likely NOT face the same decks twice on one day. That's the status quo of legacy.
This surely means that there is no such thing as an "ideal sideboard". Your sideboard constructipn should take into account (1) the meta game, (2) your maindeck and (3) your playstyle. So what I write next is not "the truth" or "the best sideboard" or anything close - it's just my (educated) oppinion.

SIDEBOARD:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss

Excplanations:

Leyline
No matter how often I though about it or how often I tested other graveyard hate (and believe me, I thought about this A LOT) it always comes down to this: If you can spend 4 slots on graveyard hate, fill them with Leylines, because it's without any doubt the best graveyard hate available. It's as simple as this: If you need graveyard hate it's only because you can't win given MUs without it. If you can't win those MUs without graveyard hate there is no point in running anything other than the best card available. e.g. You don't win against Dredge/Reanimator/Lands/younameit with 4 Faerie Macabres drawn on Turn 5 - you need them on your opening hand. The "mulligan agrument" which is supposed to speak against Leylines is not valid: Goblins is agruably the deck that is least affected by frequent mulligans. There is simply no other legacydeck that has good 5-card-openings - we are the only ones. So, son't be afraid of taking mulligans into hatecards in general when you will otherwise lose the game.

Chalice
This one aims at the DIVERSITY of the metagame. Chalice is a surprising sideboard choice for Goblins and will be unexpected for most players. It is just those 4 cards you have to beat this "DIVERSITY". You will always see an random Burn-player or an random Elves-deck on any tournament. Even Rouge strategies tend to be glue-ed together by cantrips and other cheap spells. There is just no denying it: Chalice is THE perfect sideboard card for Goblins as it does not disrupt our strategy the slightest.

Sulfuric Vortex
This one is a meta-call and I can see it being cut in near future. Right now it's just the perfect card to deal with lifelinking Batterskulls, annnoying board-sweepers (e.g. Terminus) and this occasional Rockdeck (Kitchen Finks, Ooze) and Punishing Fire-engine. Being an enchantment means that it is hard to get rid of. It adds up to our strategy against any control deck as it deals the remaining damage that we couldn't deal with our usual racing-strategy.

Pithing Needle/Null Rod
Needle is another card that credits the DIVERSITY. This card is not just flexible as hell, but it is also the best answer to the decks that run Batterskull and Jitte right now. I have explained elsewhere that “conventional” artifact hate in form of Goblins (Tuktuk, TSH, Tinkerer) are terrible cardchoices if you are aiming at equipments. The two “big” decks that feature equipments are Maverick and Stoneblade. In those MUs Pithing Needle has so many applications – it’s not even funny. As for Null Rod: this one card shuts down each and every card in Stoneblade and UW miracle that is scary: Engineered Explosives, Jitte, Batterskull, Sensei’S Divining Top and Vedalken Shakels.

Sharpshooter
This guy is also awesome against many random strategies (like Elspeth, Bitterblossom, Thopter Foundry) while wrecking havoc on more popular decks (Goblins, Elves, Empty the Warrens). As you can see he is also meant prepare the deck for many unexpected strategies.
Krenko
I’m not decided on this slot yet, but I figured out that basically any creature-based strategy will be crushed by an avalanche of Goblin tokens if they can’t handle Krenko immediately.

So, as you can see, the sideboard I’m currently running is build to fight archetypes and strategies, and is not per se designed to crush specific decks.

Again, thank you for the well-written insightful answer. Other than Chalice for 1, what would you SB in against combo?

[GoboLord]

Again, thank you for the well-written insightful answer. Other than Chalice for 1, what would you SB in against combo?

Assuming were are talking about tendrills-based storm combo:

Null Rod (against IMSs)
Sharpshooter (against Empty)
Krenko (for more Combo-potential)

[namrufmot]

Assuming were are talking about tendrills-based storm combo:

Null Rod (against IMSs)
Sharpshooter (against Empty)
Krenko (for more Combo-potential)

Thanks again. I am leaning towards replacing the two vortex's with either another Stingscourger, Pyrokensis, Tuktuk, Thorns, or even a Red Elemental Blast. I do like your idea of using Pithing Needle. Who knows what random jank decks you might be able to hose with at :P

[BigBopper]

Thanks again. I am leaning towards replacing the two vortex's with either another Stingscourger, Pyrokensis, Tuktuk, Thorns, or even a Red Elemental Blast. I do like your idea of using Pithing Needle. Who knows what random jank decks you might be able to hose with at :P

I wouldn't give up on vortex too fast if you haven't tested it yet. It makes Batterscull a 4/4 vigilance body, which we can deal with and unables one of Jittes activities (although its the least useless one, when playing vs. gobbos). However, more importantly I´ve seen Punishing Fire combined with Grooves more frequently in the last time.
We don't have lifegain, so it doesn't effect us (expect the 1 life you always get for your turn 1 lackey) and it sets a clock that has to be dealt with. And as mentioned earlier on, no one expects goblins to have a post-board enchantment in its deck.

[namrufmot]

I wouldn't give up on vortex too fast if you haven't tested it yet. It makes Batterscull a 4/4 vigilance body, which we can deal with and unables one of Jittes activities (although its the least useless one, when playing vs. gobbos). However, more importantly I´ve seen Punishing Fire combined with Grooves more frequently in the last time.
We don't have lifegain, so it doesn't effect us (expect the 1 life you always get for your turn 1 lackey) and it sets a clock that has to be dealt with. And as mentioned earlier on, no one expects goblins to have a post-board enchantment in its deck.

Ok I'll test it out in Cockatrice tonight. A few more questions:

From your suggest SB, what would you suggest siding in against Show and Tell? Combo? Thresh? Reanimator?

How does the vortex stop terminus?

What was your experience with using the Winstigator over the PD in the 2 slot? Granted PD brings a word of hurt, but they have to deal with Instigator riight away or its typically good night.

I used to be a HUGE gobbo player back in the day. I played a R/W version with STP. I just came back and all these new decks are overwhelming at first so I thank you for letting me pick your brain.

[Annatar]

It always gets messy when people start talking about percentages and Leyline of the Void.

As far as I'm concerned the fact is that I'm not sold on playing a card that is only good if you have drawn it in your starting hand and can't reliably be cast under any other circumstances, no matter how much math you put into it.

[Humphrey]

the discussion about the right gy hate is a neverending story, and gobolord made his choice.

But I think, Leyline is absolutely crap.

Its correct, against some decks you need gy hate most of the time to win, but sometimes you can just race dredge or reanimator and i dont want to topdeck leyline ever and/or mull into oblivion. Leyline is unflexible too, other gy hate has more applications or is fine as 2-of, like Relic against Canadian.

My choice for the optimal gy hate is 2x Relic of Progenitus (good against semigy-based decks and cycles) and 3x Surgical Extraction (very useful against combodecks, too)


4 Chalice of the Void
Chalice is a good sb choice against a lot of decks, but it can be to slow. because of that i run 2x mindbreak trap instead


2 Sulfuric Vortex
In Burn i loved that card, might be cool in gobs too, although i dont see any deck we cant kill otherwise.

2 Pithing Needle
never leave the house without them, but id always add an artifact killing goblin to he sb, too

1 Null Rod
cute, not as useful as needle. i prefer tt-scrapper

1 Goblin Sharpshooter
sometime great, sometimes crap. pyrokinesis is better unless you run 3x main

1 Krenko, Mob Boss
lol, run 2 main gobolord ;)

so depending on how many pyrokinesis you run mainboard (always have at least 2 in 75) my favorite sb is

2 pithing needle
1 tuktuk scrapper (1 main)
2 relic of progenitus
3 surgical extraction
2 pyrokinesis

flex:
2 mindbreak trap
2 chalice of the void
1 pyroblast

Mono R ofc. Atm Im totally sold on the blue splash for 3x spell pierce 2x envelope

[supachai]

I just realized that Torpor Orb is amazing against us...Matrons, Ringleaders, Siege-Gang, War-Marshal all become sitting ducks. Tuktuk can't even hit it :/

Anyone faced Orb from the side? Should we run Tinkerer instead of Tuktuk? Splash green for Grips? Or is it rare enough an occurrence that we shouldn't worry about it?

[Kanti]

Though I don't play Goblins I can agree with a lot of the sb choices GoboLord made as they pretty much mirror my sb strategy in Affinity, which really allows me to bring in answers to most everything but SnT. Damn SnT.

For reference, I run this in my Affinity build;

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revokers
3 Krosan Grip
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Tormod's Crypt

Chalices are AMAZING. I would never, ever, everrr cut Chalice. Running Mindbreak Traps offers no where near the versatility of Chalice, that like GoboLord said, is meant to answer the diversity of decks that make up Legacy.

It's amazing against RUG, BUG, UW Miracles, Elves, Storm, and I'm testing bringing it in against Reanimator, atleast on the play. Preventing Entomb, BS, Reanimate, Ponder and all that other goodness seems pretty nice.

Though Needles are nice I'd probably replace them with Revokers, especially in Goblins. The 2/1 body can end up swinging games. Null Rod just seems like a better version of both though against UW Miracles, though it's pretty crappy against Maverick. These 3-4 cards are again here to answer the versatility that Legacy brings. Null Rod is sick against combo, as are Revokers, and have obvious uses against many top tier decks. Solid.

As for gy hate I'm not really sure. Leyline IS the strongest answer, though that doesn't necessarily make it the best. You can't hardcast it in Goblins, which is pretty crappy, but then again you have 0 card draw in Goblins. Leyline is strongest in decks with little to no library manipulation as your chances of drawing into hate are pretty slim if you're not packing blue. I've started testing it in my Affinity deck though I think it's worse there as I run a playset Ravagers to slow down Dredge (I'd keep a hand with a t1-t2 Ravager and no gy-hate) and a playset of Thoughcasts to help me find hate. This deck, on the other hand, has no card draw and does not run any creatures than can sac Bridges, so the power of Leyline goes up a shitton as many hands without any hate or singleton Mogg Fanatics (if you run them) are not keepers. The more I think about it the more I would be inclined to run Leyline in Goblins.

Vortex is pretty damn soilid against anything UW, and anything Batterskull. I haven't testing it much but it looks solid on paper.

The blue splash seems nice but I think it only really makes you stronger against combo decks, specifically SnT and Reanimator. I don't know if it's worth it considering you could bridge the Reanimator match with the Leylines and run Chalice which are WAY more high impact to UW Miracle decks (I'm looking at you Envelop) and RUG decks. Seriously, Chalice@1 ends the game. They can't even use their shitty Brainstorms to find answers. I don't know if it's good giving the SnT match-up awy, but it's really up to what you value. (Ru builds seem to place high anyhow so there is probably some merit to going that route. I haven't seem them run Envelop but I would definitely consider a split like you mentioned)

I'm not sold on not having any Pyrokenesis in the board though, that card is amazing vs anything aggro. It's the last thing an Elves, Goblins, or Maverick player want to see thrown. The fact that you could also burn an opponent out with them to finish things off also has Merit. They might be stronger than running extra Krenkos.

I'd probably run this as Gobbos;

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Pyrokenesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

[BigBopper]

I'm not sold on not having any Pyrokenesis in the board though, that card is amazing vs anything aggro. It's the last thing an Elves, Goblins, or Maverick player want to see thrown. The fact that you could also burn an opponent out with them to finish things off also has Merit. They might be stronger than running extra Krenkos.

Note: Pyrokinesis can't burn a player, it only targets creatures.
In fact I don't want 4 Pyros in my deck at any time. Running 2 Pyros MD should take home game 1 vs. most aggro decks.

[namrufmot]

Phyrexian Revoker vs. Pithing Needle is very close.

Revoker is a lil slower and easier to remove/skill, but it can attack in pinch and you can even Vial it in if you have to...hmmm

[jrw1985]

Top 8 - Nic Fit
G3 I was on the draw and kept a pretty abysmal hand of 2x Piledirver, 2x Wasteland, Mountain, Warchief. He led with T1 Bayou and cast CT on me, missing naming Lackey, but seeing my CT vulnerable hand. T1 I had to choose between Wasting his Bayou or building a manabase with Mountain. I went for the Mountain. T2 he missed his land drop and played Veteran Explorer, then flashed back CT taking my Piledrivers. Things went downhill from there. I did have a brief window where I could have gotten back in the game (he sac'd a creature to Recurring Nightmare his Explorer out of the graveyard, but I Surgical'd the Explorer in response) but it wasn't happening, and I lost.
I needed to have a better hand and more GY hate this game. Also, had I Wasted his Bayou T1 he wouldn't have been able to Explorer and CT my Drivers away T2 (he missed a T2 land drop) but I don't blame myself for missing that play at all. He kept his opening 7 that game and had a T1 play. I'm not psychic, so all I could do was assume that Wastelanding his Bayou there will put me behind more often than not. After the match a spectator was asking me why I hadn't gone for the Wasteland T1 (in the ever-so-pleasant Why-didn't-You-take-this-"RIGHT"-line-of-play-that-Iiiiiii-noticed tone that makes me want to lay a sucker out). My reasoning: he kept his 7 and had an excellent T1 play (CT naming Lackey), which he was probably going to follow-up with a land drop and Something (Top, CT, Explorer, GSZ @ 0). If I Waste him T1 I'm assuming he A) doesn't have a T2 land drop, B) has a higher manacurve in hand, and C) I'll be able to make 2 more turns of land drops before he can get anything rolling.
I'm working through this right now so bear with me. HAD I Wasted him T1 he would have missed a land drop T2 and passed. I would have played a Mountain and either passed or Surgicalled the CT (had I drawn the Surgical at that point, which I cannot recall). Now T3 he's behind on land 0-1, but he still has the Veteran Explorer in hand and a CT in the graveyard. if he makes the T3 land drop into Explorer into CT he'll have 3 lands in play, and I'll have 3 lands in play, and my Piledrivers will be gone, but I'll have 1 less Wasteland. So whether I led with Waste or not the board position would have been exactly the same had he made a T3 land drop. The Wasteland play only really matters if he misses the T2 land drop then doesn't make another land drop for at least 3-4 turns, which, considering how he kept a 7 card opener and had a great T1 play, didn't seem like the case.
Decision matrix
I don't Waste, he makes the land drop
I don't Waste, he misses the land drop
I Waste, he makes the land drop
I Waste, he misses the land drop.

I don't Waste, he makes the land drop: He plays VE > CT. He has 4 lands EOT, I have 3.
I don't Waste, he misses the land drop: He plays VE > CT. He has 3 lands EOT, I have 3.
I Waste, he makes the land drop: He plays VE > CT. He has 3 lands EOT, I have 2.
I Waste, he misses the land drop: He passes. I play Mountain. If he makes the land drop T3 he plays VE > CT. He has 3 lands EOT, I have 3. If he misses his land drop, he passes. I play Wasteland and Piledriver #1, pass. If he makes the land drop T4 he plays VE > CT. He has 3 lands EOT, I have 4. If he misses the land drop I play Piledriver #2 or Warchief, depending on my draw.

So, what should I have done there? It seems to me that not Wasting was the right play because I only come out ahead if he misses the land drop, and since he kept 7 with a strong T1 play it wouldn't be prudent to assume he was going to be mana screwed. Maybe one of you Sourcers has a clearer way of analyzing this scenario than me...


Sorry to repost, but I was really hoping to get some feedback on this. Who here thinks I should have just Wasted T1? Would you Waste T1 on the draw?

[jrw1985]

2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage


Reposting myself again, but I thought this was relevant to the GY hate discussion that has returned for it's semi-annual season.

While Leyline is a game winner against Dredge and Reanimator (and, in my experience, Lands) it is downright unplayable against anything else. A diversified GY hate package like the one listed above can be played against a wider range of decks, can be played mid-game, and can be sided in as a 1-or-2-of.

So the question is: What is more important? Power or Flexibility?

I'm leaning toward flexibility these days. Here's why: Running Leylines means you're playing 4 cards with the intention of crushing Dredge, but won't be siding them in for anything else. That essentially means you're devoting 30% of your deck to crushing 5% of the meta. But a more flexible GY hate package in your sideboard lets you gain advantages against any deck with a recursion element. And you can still play those flexible cards against the 5% decks that Leyline crushes, they'll just be only 75% as powerful against those decks.

[Cleston]

Sorry to repost, but I was really hoping to get some feedback on this. Who here thinks I should have just Wasted T1? Would you Waste T1 on the draw?

I would not waste. You have defended that point pretty well in my opinion, and just because the outcome wasn't the best for you it doesn't mean your decision making is wrong, does it?

I noticed I usually use my wastelands after I've got a threat on the table, is it just too conservative thinking of my part?

[troopatroop]

I would waste, because you don't have any pressure to build to anyways. You're better off Wasting him, and giving yourself more chance to screw him AND draw Vial/Lackey. It's like, turn 1, do nothing or something? I also didn't see, that you had 2!!! Wastelands. Obviously, your plan A with this hand has GOT to be Waste him ftw. Piledriver into Warchief swing for 5 turn 3 is not strong...

[Mantis]

I would Waste there. If you lead off with Mountain, what is your plan here? Hope he doesn't have anything? I think your best bet is to either hope you can manascrew him, which isn't too unlikely considering he leads off with a dual or to buy time with your Waste and hope you can topdeck into a Lackey, Vial or Instigator.

A good friend of mine adheres a very simple rule when it comes to mulliganing: you must have a gameplan. A perfect mix of lands and spells means nothing if you have no gameplan. Now, I think mulling to 5 will likely resolve in a gameloss so I think your best plan is to follow the above. Hoping you can beat him down on the draw with turn 2 Piledriver, turn 3 Warchief, turn 4 Piledriver, means you lose to just about every disruption spell out there, especially considering he is going to Therapy the Pileys away. So just play your outs here and hope he is screwed or you get a lucky topdeck.

Edit: Ah, troopatroop beat me to it, excellent reply sir!

[GoboLord]

So the question is: What is more important? Power or Flexibility?

I'm leaning toward flexibility these days. Here's why: Running Leylines means you're playing 4 cards with the intention of crushing Dredge, but won't be siding them in for anything else. That essentially means you're devoting 30% of your deck to crushing 5% of the meta. But a more flexible GY hate package in your sideboard lets you gain advantages against any deck with a recursion element. And you can still play those flexible cards against the 5% decks that Leyline crushes, they'll just be only 75% as powerful against those decks.

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQF2FVk9ZZWBG-4jnOdw7HZerrT0-0FcDg_XfPLXfESl4-2UUz0
Other available graveyard hate is nothing more than a cute trick and not worth sideboarding against most decks of the field. The way I build my sideboards, I never have room for GY-hate against decks other than Reanimator, Dredge, Lands & Co.

e.g. No matter what, I'd never side in more than those 4 Chalices agains RUG (aka. a graveyard-based deck, against which Leyline just stinks) because graveyard hate is not powerful enough in this MU. Same goes for Maverick...


//EDIT:
I would have used Wasteland on T1. Chance are that he eith play VE, or another CT

[troopatroop]

Atm Im totally sold on the blue splash for 3x spell pierce 2x envelope

Share? I'd be very much interested in that list. Envelope is sexy against Show and Tell.

[GoboLord]

Share? I'd be very much interested in that list. Envelope is sexy against Show and Tell.

Stingscourger anyone?

[ScatmanX]

I would have wastelanded too.
- You can draw Vial/Lackey next turn, which would be awesome.
- You could randomly manascrew him.
- If he had Zenith instead, he would take 1 more turn to cast it (or even more), giving you time to draw your cheap dudes.
- You had 2 other lands on your hand, one being another waste. There was a pretty big chance you drew another on the next 2-3 turns.

[Mantis]

stingscourger anyone?
reb?

[ScatmanX]

reb?
They have WAY more counters than we have.
In a list with ReBs on the SB, they were never relevant, while Stingscourgers won me 4 of 5 games I played already on tournaments. (one of them it didn't showed up...)

[namrufmot]

Gobbolord....

1) You mentioned how Vortex can screw over Terminus. Can you explain how as I am not seeing it.

2) What was your experience in playing Instigator (with no Chrome Mox) instead of Piledriver at the 2 spot?

3) Do you prefer Needles or Null Rod going into an unknown meta. Null Rud shuts down all equipment and Lotus Petal (for example), but it is slower and can't hit Planeswalkers....

[RaZe]

Sorry to repost, but I was really hoping to get some feedback on this. Who here thinks I should have just Wasted T1? Would you Waste T1 on the draw?


I would have wasted seeing as he laid the Bayou first turn knowing we run wasteland.

[GoboLord]

Gobbolord....

1) You mentioned how Vortex can screw over Terminus. Can you explain how as I am not seeing it.

2) What was your experience in playing Instigator (with no Chrome Mox) instead of Piledriver at the 2 spot?

3) Do you prefer Needles or Null Rod going into an unknown meta. Null Rud shuts down all equipment and Lotus Petal (for example), but it is slower and can't hit Planeswalkers....

(1)
Sulfuric Vortex deals damage every turn and is totally unaffacetd by Terminus. The UW Miracle usually plays out like this: in early game we deal some damage (while not receiving any). In midgame they try to delay our damage output with Terminus. After that they try to not let us come back in game (with chumpblock + spot removal). At this point Sulfuric Vortex finishes them off since they usually can't handle it (well, they can counter it, but they are likely to have thrwn some countermagic at our Goblins). They are just prepared for damage that is NOT dealt by creatures.

(2)
I never replaced Piledriver with Winstigator. To me Winsitigator always fought with MWM for the cc2 spot. Piledriver is a must-have.

(3)
I prefer Needle + a singleton Null Rod. Null rod does more that shutting down Lotus Petal (+ LEDs) + equipments. It is one card that shuts down any annoying cards in currently popular strategies (Engineered Explosives, Sensei's Diving Top + Vedalken Shakles in UW Miracle and E. Explosives and Equipments in Bladecontrol).7
Besides: it does funny things against those ocassionally appearing Affinity and MUD.

[L10]

1) You mentioned how Vortex can screw over Terminus. Can you explain how as I am not seeing it.
Vortex provides a nice clock when our goblins gets removed. UW Miracle has no early pressure but removals. Vortex can also race Jace's ultimate.

2) What was your experience in playing Instigator (with no Chrome Mox) instead of Piledriver at the 2 spot?
Instigator can be pretty decent without Chrome Mox if you have the removal package. I would not replace Piledrivers for Instigators per say. They play completely different roles. Piledriver can be treated as a beater and as a removal. You can view Piledriver like Warren Weirding with legs because you have no direct control on who gets to die.

3) Do you prefer Needles or Null Rod going into an unknown meta. Null Rud shuts down all equipment and Lotus Petal (for example), but it is slower and can't hit Planeswalkers....
Needle is fantastic. I almost always have three in my SB nowadays. I don't like Null Rod at a unknown meta because it shuts down Vial and Chome Mox if you run Winstigator.

[namrufmot]

(1)
Sulfuric Vortex deals damage every turn and is totally unaffacetd by Terminus. The UW Miracle usually plays out like this: in early game we deal some damage (while not receiving any). In midgame they try to delay our damage output with Terminus. After that they try to not let us come back in game (with chumpblock + spot removal). At this point Sulfuric Vortex finishes them off since they usually can't handle it (well, they can counter it, but they are likely to have thrwn some countermagic at our Goblins). They are just prepared for damage that is NOT dealt by creatures.

(2)
I never replaced Piledriver with Winstigator. To me Winsitigator always fought with MWM for the cc2 spot. Piledriver is a must-have.

(3)
I prefer Needle + a singleton Null Rod. Null rod does more that shutting down Lotus Petal (+ LEDs) + equipments. It is one card that shuts down any annoying cards in currently popular strategies (Engineered Explosives, Sensei's Diving Top + Vedalken Shakles in UW Miracle and E. Explosives and Equipments in Bladecontrol).7
Besides: it does funny things against those ocassionally appearing Affinity and MUD.

Thanks...so let me rephrase that question. In your experience how did playing Warren x2 work out in the MWM spot?

So far my SB looks like this:

4 Leylines
4 Chalice
3 Needles
1 Null Rod
1 Sharpshooter
1 TukTuk
1 Vortex

Decent?

[GoboLord]

Thanks...so let me rephrase that question. In your experience how did playing Warren x2 work out in the MWM spot?

So far my SB looks like this:

4 Leylines
4 Chalice
3 Needles
1 Null Rod
1 Sharpshooter
1 TukTuk
1 Vortex

Decent?

Well, there are other players that have tested Winstigators recently and in any combination w/o MWMs and Piledriver. I'm being lazy and foward this question to those guys, since I don't want to give you my (colored) view on this topic...

Your sideboard looks solid. I'm still not a fan of Tuktuk Scrapper (and "not a fan of" can be read as "he's total crap").

[hagar852]

Thanks...so let me rephrase that question. In your experience how did playing Warren x2 work out in the MWM spot?

So far my SB looks like this:

4 Leylines
4 Chalice
3 Needles
1 Null Rod
1 Sharpshooter
1 TukTuk
1 Vortex

Decent?

Its crap

[namrufmot]

Its crap

I'm going to add 45 Echoing Truths to my deck now

[hagar852]

Its crap

This was just a joke everyone.. I know him.. We are testing together..

[namrufmot]

Well, there are other players that have tested Winstigators recently and in any combination w/o MWMs and Piledriver. I'm being lazy and foward this question to those guys, since I don't want to give you my (colored) view on this topic...

Your sideboard looks solid. I'm still not a fan of Tuktuk Scrapper (and "not a fan of" can be read as "he's total crap").

How do you destroy artifacts? Or do you just lock them down with Null Rods, etc

[namrufmot]

This was just a joke everyone.. I know him.. We are testing together..

I've never met this person I swear! :tongue:

[hagar852]

How do you destroy artifacts? Or do you just lock them down with Null Rods, etc

I can see how Tuktuk is kinda crappy since it is 4cc to destroy an artifact when you probably need to do it much sooner than later.

null rod vs needle.. hmmm I always hated needing another needle to shut down another card like both jitte and the other stupid equipment. It is less costly mana wise but wouldn't it be better to shut all down.. Null Rod is I guess the perfect switch with vials for SB..

[GoboLord]

I'm not encouraging this personal chit-chat anymore.

[namrufmot]

Needle will shut down either Jitte or Batterskulls, but won't they just fetch the equipment we don't needle? Making Null Rod more effective? - Althought a turn slower.

[Humphrey]

Share? I'd be very much interested in that list. Envelope is sexy against Show and Tell.

I got the idea for the blue splash here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=658724&viewfull=1#post658724)

Tobias Dreger (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8757&iddeck=63945) made T32 on GP Gent with that splash and won the last Magiccardmarket.eu tournament with this list:

Deck: Tobias Dreger - Goblins
//Lands
4 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
1 Karakas

//Creatures
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

//Creatures
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Siege-Gang Commander

//Spells
4 Aether Vial

//Sideboard
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Zo-Zu the Punisher
1 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
4 Surgical Extraction

[ScatmanX]

//Lands
4 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
1 Karakas

//Sideboard

3 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
7 Blue initial mana sources is quite a low number for something you want to have turn 1-2. I'm inclined to believe he won despite of that choice, instead of because of it.
But would really like to hear what he have to say.

[namrufmot]

What do you guys SB in against Maverick?

Here is MY current SB:
4 Leylines
4 Chalice
3 Needles
1 Null Rod
1 Sharpshooter
1 TukTuk
1 Vortex

Here is the deck I played and had some trouble...especially with Jace:
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte


CHalice at 1 stops much of their deck...needles shuts down their equipment and Jace...Vortex puts them on a clock and stops som of their equipment. Can't play them all so which do you reccommend?

[RaZe]

What do you guys SB in against Maverick?

Here is MY current SB:
4 Leylines
4 Chalice
3 Needles
1 Null Rod
1 Sharpshooter
1 TukTuk
1 Vortex

Here is the deck I played and had some trouble...especially with Jace:
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte


CHalice at 1 stops much of their deck...needles shuts down their equipment and Jace...Vortex puts them on a clock and stops som of their equipment. Can't play them all so which do you reccommend?

Doesnt look like Maverick.

But I would bring in Tuktuk, null rod n needld only.

[from Cairo]

Doesnt look like Maverick.

But I would bring in Tuktuk, null rod n needld only.

Wouldn't bring in Null Rod, our Vials look beast against the list. Tuktuk and a Needle or two seems fine.

[BigBopper]

How do you destroy artifacts? Or do you just lock them down with Null Rods, etc

I'd pack a pair of Shattering Spree, altough I haven't played them since the printing of Cavern of Souls. Still thinking you should have enough mana so destroy Jitte and Batterscull. You can even cast 2 copies and dodge counterspell, since each copy has to be countered seperately.

[fimo]

//Sideboard
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Zo-Zu the Punisher
1 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
4 Surgical Extraction

@Humphrey: I always want to be open to new ideas so I would like to hear more about this. It seems like you are the only one really sold to blue splash. So the idea is basically to splash blue for about 4 counterspells in the SB. What problem do they solve? mono red lists would probably run chalice of the void in place of those counterspells, it seems like they compete for the same spot, but are counterspells just better or what?
Another thing that I don t understand is: doesn t thoughtseize do more than spell pierce? why choosing U splash over B splash?
Would you side in spell pierce against non combo? did they help in your experience to counter equipments? But again, wouldn t discard just be better?

@all: has anyone tried Zo-Zu the Punisher? I can see it in the SB above but it looks a bit odd to me. What is he there for? Against Knight of the reliquary decks?

[Humphrey]

I tried Discard against Reanimator and Sneakshow and it didnt help at all, since they hide it with Brainstorm or find another buisness spell.
Counter their buisness or delay it, gives you the crucial 1 or 2 turns to race them. Also its often pretty unexpected.
Against combo i board 4/5 counter.

Envelop and Pierce are also strong against UW Miracles, so I board all of them in, too.

Against other decks, I usually board 2 Pierce against stuff like Humilty, Plague or removal.
Its pretty nice to bring Lackey with Caverns and counter the STP or counter the force on Vial.

Counter are much more versatile than discard, since it hits the keyspells, not the random stuff they keep on hand.


About Zo-Zu, I have no idea why it is there. Probably against lands? Or maybe he just wanted to test it. I think there are better sb options. Hes nice against fetches, though.

[Rabrab]

Somebody plays Krosan Grip and Chalice of Void or something and in my opinion does Spell Pierce the same thing like both cards.
It is "combohate" and a solution for Humility, Moat and maybe Timely Reinforcement.

I choose Envelop instead of 4th Spell Pierce cause it counters most same things. Ponder, Show&Tell, Exhume, Reanimate, Timely Reinforcement and it counters easier miracled Terminus and Entreat the Angels (When you opponent know you blue splash, he plays around Spell Pierce if he can.)
It doesn't counter hatespells like Moat, Humility or Sneak Attack. But my metachoice was more Miracle than Sneak Attack -> more miracled Terminus/Entreat as Sneak Attack.

1 Zo-Zu was against Christian Donner cause he was playing AggroLoam and wouldn't borrow me the 2. Envelop:)

[Humphrey]

welcome tobi, hope you continue to share your thoughts :)

[Pee-Dee-2]

Hi Tobi (rabrab),

so we'd like to hear some explainations of your choices. The main question was:

"What makes the blue splash better than any other red choices?"

For example you played cards like Spell Pierce and Envelop like you said against Reanimator, UW, Sneak and other Show and Tell decks. Ok...why not playing cards like Stingscourger, Vortex etc which would let you be more safe against Stifle/Wasteland.

We all know, you did well at GP, but after that, would you still play R/u?

[BigBopper]

My question would rather be whether a blue splash is still any good if people expect it. If they see a Volcanic game 1, they might be prepared for counters post-board games. Especially since we have access to Stinger why would you prefer Gildet Drake?

[Rabrab]

The easiest answer for Spell Pierce vs other options: flexibility.
We've more SB options for everything when we're using flexible cards.

Chalice -> storm
Discard -> storm + sneak/show
Krosan Grip or something -> hatepermanents
REB/Pyroblast -> only blue cards

Stingscourger is great vs Reanimator but not good enough vs sneakshow. These are the 2 MU for Stingscourger.
Sulfur Vortex is a great card but i don't like it unless in Burndecks and these are only vs controldecks.

Spell Pierce uses the cards to board in vs control and combo.

At GP i played Gilded Drake because I thought many people would play Reanimator and the Drake is the best options for this.
Vial 2 -> steel Griselbrand, Iona, SPhinx of Steel Winds and Elesh Norn.
Don't forget your Cavern of Souls with naming Drake to cast a uncounterbale hate for him. They're statregy is reanimate or show/tell a great creature and Gildet Drake would awesome vs both.
Vs Sneak Attack is Gildet Drake useless but still boarding in vs turn 2 show/tell -> Emrakul/Griselbrand.
=> Gildet Drake is in a "heavy" Reanimatormeta.


Wastelands: 1 Volcanic Island doesn't worst and try to keep Volcanic in your Libary until you need it.
Sometimes when I had a Volcanic on board my opponents know my Spell Pierces and plays around. I didn't have one but i get a mindgaming "timewalk". It's great vs Miracle when they're wouldn't cast their Moat/Humility on turn 4. Same things like vs Combo when they're thinking about Spell Pierce and waiting for 1-2 turns.

Finally I would still playing Ru Goblins.

Edit: When anyone interesting in GP and MKM results.
GP Ghent
Grinder 3:
Round 1 Goblins 2-0
Round 2 Maverick 2-0
Round 3 Miracle 2-0
Round 4 BUG Dreadnought 2-0
Round 5 Miracle he had 3 byes and concedes but i think i would still won this.

GP Day1
3 Byes
Round 4 4c Control 2-1
Round 5 Stoneblade 2-0
Round 6 Maverick
Round 7 RUG 2-1
Round 8 SneakShow 1-2
Round 9 Miracle 1-1-1

7-1-1

Day2
Round 10 Maverick 2-0
Round 11 Elfball 2-1
Round 12 Miracle 0-2
Round 13 RUG Cascade 2-0
Round 14 Maverick 1-2
Round 15 Miracle 2-0
Round 16 RUG 2-1

12-3-1

MKM
Round 1 Burn 1-2
Round 2 Doomsday 2-0
Round 3 Maverick 2-1
Round 4 Merfolk
Round 5 Miracle 2-0
Round 6 Goblins 2-0

5-1

Top8
Quarter NicFit 2-0
Semi Miracle 2-0
Final Miracle 2-0

=> I'm still thinking that Goblins are a great mteachoice at the moment.

[jrw1985]

Congratulations on the good showings, rabrab! Your decklist from Ghent looked super solid and your sideboard seemed pretty rad. I actually feel kinda dumb looking at your list because it's just so obvious. No tricks in the maindeck, just 34 Goblins with the Krenko-supporting Sharpshooter/Prospector package. You kept it simple and got the results. I dig it.

I've yet to play against a Miracle deck. Would you mind elaborating on how you sideboarded and played those rounds?

Thanks much! And again, Congrats!

[ScatmanX]

@Rebrab:
With that list, how do you side against Canadian?

[Rabrab]

Thanks:)

I playstyle vs Miracle was keeping 3-5 dmg like 2 goblins on board and play around Terminus and try to play tempo and don't keep your Gempalm and Stingscourger on your hand.
Your opening hand should have 2-3 lands + Vial or Cavern of souls (with Cavern are these 3-4 lands). These 8 cards are the keys with Goblin Matron and Ringleader.

My boardingplan was:
3 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
1 Zo Zu (He's a goblin who deals 4 dmg each round)
2 Surgical Extraction (counters Swords to Plowshares of Timely Reinforcementflashback by Snapcaster Mage and miracles from Entreat/Terminus when he's tapping his Sensei Top.)

Out:
1 Tuktuk Scrapper or Skirk Prospector depended on Vedalken Shackles or not. 1 drop is better but Tuktuk safes vs Shackles

2 Stingscourger

4 Gempalm Incinerator or 3 and 1 Sharpshooter depended on playing Mishra's Factory and/ or Timely Reinforcement and who's starting the game.

G2 is the same gameplan unless that we have disruption for his miracle and sb-tricks and we don't need the tempoplays like g1.


Edit: SB vs RUG.
I don't remember how I boarded. But I boarded Pyrokinesis in.

I think:

+3 Pyrokinesis (combat for Tarmo or early Delver(s) and the have enough CA)
-1 SKirk (we don't need shootertricks or overextending. Maybe he's playing Rough/Trumble. Try to play control and hold his creature off the board)
-1 Shooter
-1 Tuktuk

[Pee-Dee-2]

Ok, away from the blue sideboard. At the moment I try to test Sudden Shock. Nearly uncounterable removal could do well against Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mytics and others.
Doaes anyone else have some experiences?

[feline]

I have seen sudden shock in a sideboard before, though it wasn't a goblin deck, for myself I like how Tarfire is nettable via Goblin Matron / Goblin Ringleader so I stick with tarfire's in the sideboard.

[ScatmanX]

Ok, away from the blue sideboard. At the moment I try to test Sudden Shock. Nearly uncounterable removal could do well against Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mytics and others.
Doaes anyone else have some experiences?
If Tarfire did not existed, and Maverick was an abismall MU, then I'd consider it.

[jrw1985]

Thanks:)

I playstyle vs Miracle was keeping 3-5 dmg like 2 goblins on board and play around Terminus and try to play tempo and don't keep your Gempalm and Stingscourger on your hand.
Your opening hand should have 2-3 lands + Vial or Cavern of souls (with Cavern are these 3-4 lands). These 8 cards are the keys with Goblin Matron and Ringleader.

My boardingplan was:
3 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
1 Zo Zu (He's a goblin who deals 4 dmg each round)
2 Surgical Extraction (counters Swords to Plowshares of Timely Reinforcementflashback by Snapcaster Mage and miracles from Entreat/Terminus when he's tapping his Sensei Top.)

Out:
1 Tuktuk Scrapper or Skirk Prospector depended on Vedalken Shackles or not. 1 drop is better but Tuktuk safes vs Shackles

2 Stingscourger

4 Gempalm Incinerator or 3 and 1 Sharpshooter depended on playing Mishra's Factory and/ or Timely Reinforcement and who's starting the game.

G2 is the same gameplan unless that we have disruption for his miracle and sb-tricks and we don't need the tempoplays like g1.


Edit: SB vs RUG.
I don't remember how I boarded. But I boarded Pyrokinesis in.

I think:

+3 Pyrokinesis (combat for Tarmo or early Delver(s) and the have enough CA)
-1 SKirk (we don't need shootertricks or overextending. Maybe he's playing Rough/Trumble. Try to play control and hold his creature off the board)
-1 Shooter
-1 Tuktuk

I like that you sided in 2 Extractions. I've found that to be a super useful card and have considered playing more of it.

How do you approach casting your counterspells? I have never been a fan of REB or Pyroblast because I hate chosing between keeping mana open to cast a counterspell or tapping out to put more pressure on the board. Playing strick counters seems like it really slows down your board development. Have you found that to be the case?

[ScatmanX]

@Envelop: People who run it assure it is the best option?
A teammate suggested Flusterstorm, which may seem better, since it comes in against more MU's (like Reanimator). Also, the 2 top decks that Envelop is good against are SnT, where Envelop is easier to FoW, and UW Miracles, where Envelop looks clearly better. But is is worth it because of 1 already good matchup run it instead of Fluster?

[BigBopper]

Talking about hate, since Goblins became dtb. Isn't Krosan Grip the best answer to face that? It takes care of:
Engeneered Plaque
Engeneered Explosives
Moat
Humility
Ensnearing Bridge
Deed
Shakles
Sword of F/I
Jitte
Sneak Attack
Divining Top
It can't be countered and works with instant speed. You don't have to have it when they play that threat and can pull it up the top of your library or with Gempalm...
Would it be an option instead of blue "counter" splash? Thinking of cards like TSH and ancient grudge.

[Rabrab]

How do you approach casting your counterspells? I have never been a fan of REB or Pyroblast because I hate chosing between keeping mana open to cast a counterspell or tapping out to put more pressure on the board. Playing strick counters seems like it really slows down your board development. Have you found that to be the case?

I had never problem to keep mana open. I would be a turn slower as a fewer turn dead vs combo.
Vs Miracle we want to keep 2 (maybe 3) goblins on board and it was easy to keep 1 open but it dependes who starts.
When I start I could tap out in turn 1, 2 and 3 and up turn 4 I need to keep 1 mana open to counter his 4 mana enchantment. Each other turn we have 5+ lands and we never problem to cast Goblin Ringleader and keep 1.

Question about the counter like Envelop vs Spell Pierce vs Flusterstorm.
Each counter shines in some special MU.
Flusterstorm vs Reanimator
Spell Pierce vs Sneakshow + decks which are playing hateenchantments.
Envelop vs Miracle (miracle Entreat + Terminus)

Imo it is a metachoice of the countersplit. I would run 4-5 (I like 5) and depended on meta.
Atm I would say the meta (in Germany) is most Miracle followed by RUG and Maverick. In 2. line is Sneakshow and other decks but Reanimator never show us atm.

Spell Pierce is the flexible cards of the 3 and would run of most like 3 of 5 or 2 of 4 and the other 2 counter slots you may choose depend on your meta.


(sry for my english)

[jrw1985]

Let your drunk flag fly dude. I'm singing classics from the 90's with my friends right now, and it is awesome.

[Pee-Dee-2]

Does anyone test Tower of Magistrate in the newer past? I think against esper and Mav with Equipments it could work and we can play it main.

[namrufmot]

As a 1 of? I've been trying out a couple Mutavaults MD as well....hmmm

Lands does seem to be the one place where we can improve slightly in this deck...esp with monored

[RaZe]

As a 1 of? I've been trying out a couple Mutavaults MD as well....hmmm

Lands does seem to be the one place where we can improve slightly in this deck...esp with monored

The best thing about mono red is its wasteland resistant mana base to fuel out this mana guzzling deck

[namrufmot]

Monored typically plays 8 nonbasic lands anyway - 4 Caverns and 4 Wastes.

Wastes are becoming less useful in Legacy since many decks and operate on 2-3 lands anyway (Thresh, RUG, SnT, Zoo, etc).

Only in that rare case when your opp gets severly mana-screwed do you want to use Waste. It often hate to use my Wastes because I find it sets me back a turn early game when I'd prefer to be applying pressure - you're right gobbos are mana hungry.

[Pee-Dee-2]

Monored typically plays 8 nonbasic lands anyway - 4 Caverns and 4 Wastes.

Wastes are becoming less useful in Legacy since many decks and operate on 2-3 lands anyway (Thresh, RUG, SnT, Zoo, etc).

Only in that rare case when your opp gets severly mana-screwed do you want to use Waste. It often hate to use my Wastes because I find it sets me back a turn early game when I'd prefer to be applying pressure - you're right gobbos are mana hungry.
So what did you want to tell us. Did you want to say, that Tower or Mutavaults are bad, because they could be nonbasics #9 to #10?

My question was not, how many nonbasics normally we gonna play. My question was, if someone has tested the Tower.

Furthermore you are wrong. You can play more than 8 nonbasics. That is the core, but some players sway f.e. of #2 Ports and do well with them.

But you're absolutely right: We have to use wastelands deliberated because we need much mana in our deck

So I will test them, because they can be the autowin against Esper (Stoneblade) wven if they don't play wastes.

[namrufmot]

I was saying that I'd rather play the Tower, Mutavaults, or other utility land OVER Wastelands.

If an opponent Wastes our Caverns (as they are likely to do), do you really want to use YOUR Wastes on their lands? We'd be so far behind the mana curve we'd neer be able to cast 2-3 gobbos per turn.

[Vandalize]

I was saying that I'd rather play the Tower, Mutavaults, or other utility land OVER Wastelands.

If an opponent Wastes our Caverns (as they are likely to do), do you really want to use YOUR Wastes on their lands? We'd be so far behind the mana curve we'd neer be able to cast 2-3 gobbos per turn.

Man, Wasteland is one of the best cards in Legacy. It steals wins out of nowhere, and punish people for keeping bad hands. I'm sure you would want to waste Gaea's Cradle, Maze of Ith and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale more than casting 1~2 more goblins.

Moreover, it's a REALLY GOOD card against the top deck (RUG Delver) and has a nice utility against any archtype.

If you want to hardcast dudes, just play Elves. Manadenial was and still is a very important part of Goblins strategy.

[jrw1985]

Played in a 4 round tourney today. Went 3-1. The deck performed awesomely (it's a real word, I swear). I ran the decklist that I've been working on that's a compilation of the highest performing Goblin decks averaged togather (AKA, add up the total number of all the separate cards from all the different Goblins decks that have top 8'd or had strong showings in large tourneys [100+ players], then divide those by the total number of decklists you aggregated, and Voila, and averaged decklist). Here's the averaged decklist and sideboard I ran...

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
6 Mountain
5 fetchlands
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Gilded Drake
1 Goblin King

R1 - Belcher
G1 I was on the play and kept a 1-lander (Port) with 2 Vials and an excellent curve. It was looking pretty good, then my opponent T2 Belched me. Sigh. I actually made a huge mistake by scooping as soon as he Belched. He was on Rgb Belcher, so there's a chance he was running Bayou and would have fizzled. Should have made him reveal to lethal, but I didn't. That's the weird thing about playing in casual tourneys. You tend to let your guard down too easily.
G2 I sided out 2 Vials and 2 Gempalms for 2 Chalices and 2 Pyrokinesises. I mulled to 6 and kept a hand with Chalice. I T1'd Chalice 2 0 and my opponent scooped.
G3 I sided out the last 2 Vials for Faerie Macabre and Surgical Extraction. They were just better than Vial at that point. I mulled to 6 on the draw and kept a hand with Lackey, Lackey, Pyrokinesis, 3 Lands. My opponent made 14 Gobbos T1. I topdecked a second Pyrokinesis and removed the Lackeys to clear 8 gobbo tokens off the board, then played a land. Took 6. I played another land. Took another 6 (8 life now) Next turn I cracked a fetch and played (7 life) a Mogg War Marshall. Took 4 (3 life, only 4 Goblin tokens on my opponent's board. I played a Ringleader. Took 2 (1 life). I then played another Mogg War Marshall and started going on the attack with Ringleader. He had rebuilt his hand at this point and dumped a billion new gobbos onto the board. I hit a few too many lands and wasn't able to get a Sharpshooter in play.
So I picked up a loss, but it was a well fought game and I came pretty close in a generally unwinnable MU.
0-1

R2 Bye
Dammit

R3 - Bant
G1 He was a little low on lands. I resolved a Krenko off of Vial. He cracked a fetchland with an active KotR so I activated Krenko in response to the fetch and made like 4 goblins, then Gempalmed his KotR before the fetch resolved. He Scooped.
G2 - Very much like G1. Resolved a Krenko and smashed. 4 pieces of spot removal = good MU.
2-1

R4 - RUG Delver
G1 Before we start playing my opponent talks about how bad the Goblin MU is. Which is funny because I've always thought RUG Delver is a terrible MU. Well, only one of us could be right. After a grindy game where he neglected to Force my Vial I resolved a Krenko and took it over.
G2 I sided in 2 Pyrokinesises, Surgical Extraction (heard the players in the RUG Delver mirror during the prior round talk about Wasting and extracting one of the duals to shut down R or G from the deck), and 2 Relics, sided out 4 Piledrivers and a Sharpshooter. He played a T1 Tropical and passed. I played a T1 Cavern and Lackey. He played a T2 Goyf. I T2 Pyro'd it, and connected with Lackey but had nothing to put into play off of it. This game was gonna be a grind. I took a bunch of Delver hits but stabilized with Mogg War Marshal and used some creative blocking and well-timed Gempalms to kill off his Goyfs and Delvers. I landed a Seige Gang Commander and took the game over with a Krenko. Here's the thing about RUG Delver: They only run 4 Bolts these days. They're running more Fire // Ice and Forked Bolt, so they actually have limited options for dealing with a resolved Krenko. And a resolved Krenko will win the game for you. After being beaten down to 7 life I took over the game and won. Felt good.
3-1

The day felt pretty good. The only thing I would want to change about the deck is that a second Krenko might be necessary, if only because it is so fucking powerful. You could easily replace Chieftain, Tuktuk, or Pyrokinesis from the MD for a 2nd Krenko. 1 was enough today, but tomorrow having a second might be the way to go.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Reporting back from the PLS (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24395-Philadelphia-Legacy-Series-Season-1-Championship-Top-Deck-Games-on-Aug-25th!) in Haddon, New Jersey. I got in without having to pay the $30 entry because I top 8'd here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-Deck-Vial-Goblins-2.0&p=659969&viewfull=1#post659969). After 7 rounds of swiss and the top 8, I walked away with play sets of Underground Seas and Plateaus! It was a 79 player event and my largest Legacy tournament to date.

My 75 were inspired by Brad Campbell (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8917&iddeck=65153)'s list from Gen Con which placed 4th of 350 a week ago. My changes were scribbled on the way to the event on the list I printed. I took the following 75:

4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothill
1 Arid Mesa
1 Taiga
-
22 Lands

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Holligan
-
4 Artifacts, 34 Goblins

Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Round 1 - Matt with RUG Delver 2-0
He was playing with Stifle and Grim Lavamancer. Having removal and getting 3 off of Ringleader won this.
Out: Krenko, Tin Street
In: 2 Relics
He lands Lavamancer turn 1. I play Vial. I refuse to play anything while keeping him off mana first with 1 port, then a 2nd. Once Vial hit 3 I unloaded and overwhelmed.
Win

Round 2 - Robert with Maverick 1-2
I'm on the play and get 2 colorless lands. Mull to a hand with no lands. :cry: Kept Mountain, Aether Vial, Tin Street Hooligan, Goblin Warchief, Cavern of Souls. TSH destroyed a Jitte before Warchief was Vialed in. I thought I stablized with SCG but tricks with Scryb Ranger and Mother of Runes put me too far behind.
Out: 3 Piledriver, 2 Gempalm
In: 3 Kinesis, TSH, Sharpshooter
Game 2 he scoops to the swarm.
Game 3 he has removal for all my guys and blows up my Vials.
Loss
He eventually makes it into the top 8

Round 3 - Truongg with Nic-Fit 2-0
He was not running Birthing Pod. He leads with Veteran Explorer, I with Lackey. I gladly trade with him during my next attack step and play Ringleader which drowned him in card advantage.
Out: Vial, Stingscourger, MWM
In: 2 Cage, TSH (still thought Pod was played in this...)
We each mull to 5. Goblins 5 is better than most decks 5.
Win

Round 4 - Brad with Aggro Loam 2-0
I recognize him from the local Legacy scene. He wins the die roll. I establish a clock but didn't write notes. That usually means mana denial got me there.
Again, no notes on sideboarding.
He mulls to 5 and keeps a hand with 'comes into play tapped' cycle lands which he has to play. I lead with Lackey. Connect and drop SCG, play Piledriver. Next turn attack for 17 and throw a chump.
Win

Round 5 - Brandon with Affinity 2-0
He put me on a slow deck and kept a slow hand. I was on the play and led with Lackey. Next turn was Wasteland and Goblins. I think I naturally drew TSH which destroyed a Cranial Plating.
No sideboarding notes
Game 2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas made Ornithopter a 5/5. Signal Pest gave it the 6 he needed to finish me.
Game 3 he mulled to 6 and I overran him. Pyrokinesis helped here.
Win

Round 6 - Tim with Sneak Show 2-1
I had dodged Show and Tell all day. I had played last week against Omniscience and that shit is nuts. He was also anxious being this close to drawing in. He wins game one by doing something broken... it doesn't really matter what.
out: 4 Aether Vial, TSH
In: 2 REB, 2 Pyroblast, Stingscourger
He durdles with cantrips and my clock is too quick! Sideboarding didn't do anything here, just good oldfashioned goblin swarms. I was holding REB the whole game though, leaving :r: available.
Game 3 I mull to 6 and he's on the play... Great. As the game proceeds I have Wasteland for his Ancient Tomb and Port for his City of Traitors. I get there!
Win

Round 7 - Blake with ??
We both make it into the top 8. I find out he is on Miracle.
I place 7th of 79 after 7 rounds of swiss.

Top 8
Round 8 - Greg with RUG Delver
I walk into Daze enough that he comments on how much I enjoy doing it during game 2. He gets this game.
Game 2 he mulls to 6. He sees I'm playing fetchlands. Vial sticks and gets too many guys on the board.
Game 3 he leads with a cantrip. I play a mountain and pass, commenting on how I've walked into daze enough this round. Second turn I play a fetchland and it's Stifled! He boarded them in game 3. I play Vial with my land from last turn and it's dazed... Next turn it's more of the same. Fetchland is stifled and Lackey is dazed. Fortunately his disruptive hand had no gas and he didn't draw into any. His buddy told me he boarded 2 Mongoose out to make room for the Stifles.
Win

Round 9 - Eric with Show and Tell 2-1
He plays Omniscience turn 2 and wins.
Out: 3 Aether Vials, TSH, Sharpshooter
In: 2 REB, 2 Pyroblast, Stingscourger
Game 2 he shows Griselbrand, I show Matron which gets me Stingscourger. He draws 7 before returning Grizz but Goblins overwhelmed.
Game 3 we each mull to 6. He has to take a chance and Intuitions for Show and Tell. I'm holding 2 Stingscourgers. He tries to draw into an out but can't.
Win

Final Round
Round 10 - Josh with RUG Delver
We agree that getting either 1st or 2nd is good and play for the top spot. He is playing with Lavamancers. I mull to 6 but keep him off :u: by wasting the land he intended to cantrip into victory with. His only other land was a Wasteland which didn't do much against my mountains.
Out: TSH, 2 other things...
In: 3 Relics
He burns away creatures and gets a clock established early.
Game 3 I'm on the play and he mulls to 5. He puts up a good fight but draws a Daze when he needed a land to play and equip Jitte to have a chance at stablizing.


For me this was a return to the more traditional style of Goblins. I generally prefer more Chieftains and WInstigators and had stopped playing with Port till today. TSH was good. I had never tested it before but it is good when you need it (which is early). Mostly I was impressed with how Goblins just did it's thing. I frequently boarded in 3-4 cards which I never saw and won due to mana disruption or overwhelming the board.

Kuddos to Nick and the guys at Top Deck Games for a great event. I had a blast. Thanks to the other local stores involved in the PLS for generating more local Legacy tournaments recently.

[Chatto]

Congrats to you both.

Some questions for Ace:

I noticed you also play one Krenko, like Jrw1985. Do you also going to two or do you think one is enough. And did you ever had problems casting TSH, because of Warchief?

And a second Sharpshooter? Could you tell me why? I can see you boarded in against Maverick.

Again congrats with your finish!

Cheerio

[GoboLord]

Round 3 - Truongg with Nic-Fit 2-0
He was not running Birthing Pod. He leads with Veteran Explorer, I with Lackey. I gladly trade with him during my next attack step and play Ringleader which drowned him in card advantage.
Out: Vial, Stingscourger, MWM
In: 2 Cage, TSH (still thought Pod was played in this...)
We each mull to 5. Goblins 5 is better than most decks 5.
Win


[...]


Round 6 - Tim with Sneak Show 2-1
I had dodged Show and Tell all day. I had played last week against Omniscience and that shit is nuts. He was also anxious being this close to drawing in. He wins game one by doing something broken... it doesn't really matter what.
out: 4 Aether Vial, TSH
In: 2 REB, 2 Pyroblast, Stingscourger
He durdles with cantrips and my clock is too quick! Sideboarding didn't do anything here, just good oldfashioned goblin swarms. I was holding REB the whole game though, leaving :r: available.
Game 3 I mull to 6 and he's on the play... Great. As the game proceeds I have Wasteland for his Ancient Tomb and Port for his City of Traitors. I get there!
Win


[...]


Round 9 - Eric with Show and Tell 2-1
He plays Omniscience turn 2 and wins.
Out: 3 Aether Vials, TSH, Sharpshooter
In: 2 REB, 2 Pyroblast, Stingscourger
Game 2 he shows Griselbrand, I show Matron which gets me Stingscourger. He draws 7 before returning Grizz but Goblins overwhelmed.
Game 3 we each mull to 6. He has to take a chance and Intuitions for Show and Tell. I'm holding 2 Stingscourgers. He tries to draw into an out but can't.
Win.

I'm really courious about your explanations on your sideboarding for those MUs.

Why did you side OUT Stingerscourger vs. NicFit? I totally love him here because he (1) timewalks their Veteran Explorer and (2) can bounce their fatties (including Scavenging Ooze with 10+ counters.

AND

Why did you side OUT Aether Vials and not Gempalm Incinerator vs Show & Tell decks? I can't help myself but GI seems to be a dead card here, while Aether Vial can be left @ 2 or 3 to enable Matron --> Stingscourger stuff in response to Show and Tell.

[jrw1985]

Final Round
Round 10 - Josh with RUG Delver
We agree that getting either 1st or 2nd is good and play for the top spot. He is playing with Lavamancers. I mull to 6 but keep him off :u: by wasting the land he intended to cantrip into victory with. His only other land was a Wasteland which didn't do much against my mountains.
Out: TSH, 2 other things...
In: 3 Relics
He burns away creatures and gets a clock established early.
Game 3 I'm on the play and he mulls to 5. He puts up a good fight but draws a Daze when he needed a land to play and equip Jitte to have a chance at stablizing.


He boarded Jitte against you? What an asshole! An active Jitte would be awful in the RUG Delver MU. Artifact hate is usually the first thing I side out against that deck. Jitte does seem like a bit of a shit show though, just cause they need 4 mana to play and attach it (which seems rough for that deck) and they run Mongoose which is attach-proof. I guess if you draw enough spot removal there's no problem with them boarding out spells that will do something for a Jitte that might just sit there. Still, I've offically got another thing to worry about against them...

Congrats on your big win, Ace! In the future I would suggest leaving Krenko sided in against RUG Delver. They're only running 4 Bolts as answers these days and they'll drown in the CA of an active Krenko as much as any other deck that plays fair.

As one who has played Winstigator for a long time, let me say that I am a convert to the ways of the Mogg War Marshal. That card was hugely helpful at my last tourney, and really gave me time to get some other things going.

[Tammit67]

Reporting back from the PLS (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24395-Philadelphia-Legacy-Series-Season-1-Championship-Top-Deck-Games-on-Aug-25th!) in Haddon, New Jersey.

Kuddos to Nick and the guys at Top Deck Games for a great event. I had a blast. Thanks to the other local stores involved in the PLS for generating more local Legacy tournaments recently.

Holy crap, you got first? Congrats!!

[Ace/Homebrew]

@Cleston - I have a friend in school for statistics and his #'s regarding Leyline %s were close enough to yours that I owe you an apology!

@Chatto - 1 Krenko was enough for me yesterday although I used 3 a month before and was thrilled with them. I was using 7 haste lords and 4 WInstigators in that build though. 1 (maybe 2) is probably the correct number.
The Shooter in the board could have been something else. I never played any Blade decks which I believe it was intended for.

@GoboLord - I haven't extensively tested against Nic-Fit. I hadn't seen an Ooze although it makes sense that they'd play it. In my limited experience I'd rather kill Explorer on my terms than bounce it so I get first use of the extra mana. I remember now that he tapped out for a Deed while I had a Warchief and something else in play. I played a SGC and forced him to pop it for 0 or die that turn. It bought him 1 turn.
Game 1 against my first S+T deck I kept a hand with SGC, MWM, and a Gempalm with other stuff. He showed Grizz and I the SGC. My turn I played MWM and was close to killing Grizz with the Gempalm if I had gotten another turn. I boarded out Vial because I deemed them too slow to matter. If I'm holding Stingscourger and he S+T's then I don't need the vial protection anyway. That was my thinking at least.

@JRW - Thanks man! I tried siding out a variety of cards against RUG. I saw it 3 times and attribute the wins to practice and patience. I focused and made good plays like attacking before casting the goblins I wanted to stick around so they would use their bolts on the guys I did not care about. RUG players definitely keep risky hands knowing that they only need 2 to function. If you catch them when they do this, Wasteland and Port can set them back too far to recover.

@Tammit - Thanks Matt!

[namrufmot]

Ace, I notice there are no removal spells like Pyros or Tarfires. id you ever find yourself wanting more creature removal?

[Ace/Homebrew]

If I did, I would board in Pyrokinesis games 2/3. I don't believe I ever added more than 2. Chieftain was used a few times to make my guys bigger than the opponents blockers. Siege-Gang made all my guys removal a few times as well. I was comfortable with trading when necessary and felt the amount of removal was appropriate.

[namrufmot]

Couple more questions...

With so many fetches...did that 2-3 life points ever come back to bite you in the ass?

Did you ever lack enough red mana? I'm thinking about running the deck but with only 2 Ports and more red mana.

Did anyone ever Waste your Taiga? Would you fetch for the Taiga right away?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Tom right?
No, never. The only downside to fetchlands is exposing yourself to Stifle.
Red was never a problem. I essentially ran 14 red sources.
Like rabrab said in an earlier post, you keep your dual land in the deck for as long as possible before you actually need it.

[namrufmot]

Thanks again...next question because I'm very interested in how "old-school" your build was.

How did you the Prospector? As a sac engine for the Sharpshooter? With the Moggs spitting out tokens I can envision you saccing them to the Shooter for the fatal last 3-4 damage.

[namrufmot]

My friend and I just had a new (cool or lame?) idea for the mana base. We really like the idea using the Hooligan and Wort Boggart Auntie (a Gempalm, Mogg, or Sting every turn!?) and since neither of us have a full set of Taigas/Badlands were were looking at something like this:

4 Caverns
3 Ancient Ziggurats
4 Wastelands
7 Mountains
4 Fetches

In essence that gives us 7 lands to cast either the Hooligan or Wort...and in early testing this has never been a problem. And since we don't MD any spells aside from Vials, the drawbacks shouldn't be a problem.

Anyone ever fully test something like this?:eyebrow:

[ScatmanX]

My friend and I just had a new (cool or lame?) idea for the mana base. We really like the idea using the Hooligan and Wort Boggart Auntie (a Gempalm, Mogg, or Sting every turn!?) and since neither of us have a full set of Taigas/Badlands were were looking at something like this:

4 Caverns
3 Ancient Ziggurats
4 Wastelands
7 Mountains
4 Fetches

In essence that gives us 7 lands to cast either the Hooligan or Wort...and in early testing this has never been a problem. And since we don't MD any spells aside from Vials, the drawbacks shouldn't be a problem.

Anyone ever fully test something like this?:eyebrow:
11 lands that add R For gempal seem to few. 13 would be the minimun i'D play.

[Pee-Dee-2]

@Ace: At first congrats to you! I also have one question and I don't know if it has been answered: You boarded out Incinerators against Maverick? Surely the Pyrokinesis does better in this matchup, but Incinerators also are very strong. So why did you do it. In my opinion you are more the control deck aganst Maverick so you need this removal. Incinerator is the only removal that create cardadvantage.
Thanks for the explaination ;)

Yesterday I also went to a tournament but did...awfull. I went 3:3 and did't play well (f.e. didn't play a chalice against Zoo and than get Path'ed, Bolt'ed and Nacatl'ed) and drew crap (f.e. after a hand with 3 Gobos, Pyro and 3 Lands, drew Land, Land, Land, Land, Vial, Vial, Vial, Vial while my opponent drew threats and removal).

It's sometimes very hard if you see, that there a bad players around you, who luck themselves into the prices (and afterwards talk like they would be the best player) while you do the greatest shit on earth.

But that's life. So ofter two bad tournaments there will be light, I hope ;)

[GoboLord]

My friend and I just had a new (cool or lame?) idea for the mana base. We really like the idea using the Hooligan and Wort Boggart Auntie (a Gempalm, Mogg, or Sting every turn!?) and since neither of us have a full set of Taigas/Badlands were were looking at something like this:

4 Caverns
3 Ancient Ziggurats
4 Wastelands
7 Mountains
4 Fetches

In essence that gives us 7 lands to cast either the Hooligan or Wort...and in early testing this has never been a problem. And since we don't MD any spells aside from Vials, the drawbacks shouldn't be a problem.

Anyone ever fully test something like this?:eyebrow:

If you want to include Wort, you don't need dual-lands at all. You have 4 Cavern + 4 Vials + 4 Lackeys to stick her on the battlefield.
TSH is different, since Lackey and Vial don't enable his ability. I'd just stick to 1 Taiga (or Stomping Ground) and 4 fetches if you want to run TSH. I havn't tested Ziggurats so far, but they aren't necessarily a bad idea. For the longf run I'd invest in 1 or 2 Taigas (or Stomping Grounds) to make yourselves open to include K.rips and Ancient Grudge.

[Cleston]

@Cleston - I have a friend in school for statistics and his #'s regarding Leyline %s were close enough to yours that I owe you an apology!


hey man, no need for that ;)

congratulations on your great finish!

as a goblin player who is using no non-basic except for cavern and wasteland, let me ask you something: how important were those rishadan's over the tournament? do you think you could have won without them?

just want to know how much I should priorize investing on those... I'm still gathering my fetches and duals.

[BigBopper]

as a goblin player who is using no non-basic except for cavern and wasteland, let me ask you something: how important were those rishadan's over the tournament? do you think you could have won without them?



Remember Rishadan Ports may serve as temporal removal, tapping down manlands as Factories, Dryad Arbor, Mutavault and these Zendikar lands, seen every once in a while. All of this additional to its usual use, stated many times in this threat.

[kingsey]

Nice job dude!!

[jrw1985]

Congratulations to James Hitchens for coming in 16th at SCG Denver this weekend!

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger

Legendary Creatures
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

Basic Lands
7 Mountain

Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction

[Cleston]

Remember Rishadan Ports may serve as temporal removal, tapping down manlands as Factories, Dryad Arbor, Mutavault and these Zendikar lands, seen every once in a while. All of this additional to its usual use, stated many times in this threat.

I know about it's utility, for sure, I just wanted to know if the player piloting the deck thought there were key to his win.

you know, it's been some pages since rishadan was dropping in quantity from most lists (I guess since the printing of cavern of souls?), some people used 2, some used none, and now we see a successful list running 4. I dunno what to think about it, hence my question for him.

[Cleston]

Basic Lands
7 Mountain

Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction[/cards]

I'd like to hear more about this choice of 6 fetches, 7 basic, 0 duals, 0 splashes. and referring to my previous post, notice he runs zero rishadans.

[Humphrey]

Ports a kinda top or flop card, sometimes you will win the game because of them, otherwise youre colorscrewed and lose.

Actually, last time I tried one! I lost 2 games, I had to mulligan because my hands were like Port, Wasteland, Lackey and my hands got worse.
This happened to me everytime I tried ports, although I won a few games with them, Ill never run Ports again, since caverns are enough non-basics.

[L10]

Loved the report Ace. Glad to see goblins doing well.


I'd like to hear more about this choice of 6 fetches, 7 basic, 0 duals, 0 splashes. and referring to my previous post, notice he runs zero rishadans.
He probably think the life loss is worth the virtually irrelevant card advantage. Personally, I think it is a bad call, and probably lost him some games that went down to the wire.

You don't have to run ports to win. But personally, every time I try to take out my Ports, I always put them back in, which is why it has been hard for me to adopt Winstigator. I find Port to be an excellent stall in our deck, especially when we tap the right manas. Against Merfolk, tapping an island can really annoy them because most of there lords has a UU cost. Against Maverick, tapping down Maze of Ith is also good for Piledriver. Tapping down Karakas against DnT can be annoying because they can't do combat tricks with Thalia or force them to use the Mangara trick when they do not want to. Against MUD and any Stompy deck, tapping down a Sol Land can be big. You have to use Ports for a while to appreciate its utility.

[jrw1985]

Congratulations to James Hitchens for coming in 16th at SCG Denver this weekend!

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger

Legendary Creatures
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

Basic Lands
7 Mountain

Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction

Now that I've actually taken the time to read the list-
1. Krenko > Kiki-Jiki
2. Don't use fetch lands if you're not running duals. You need to crack 4 of them before you're likely to draw one more goblin off Ringleader. 4 life for 1 random goblin maybe = not worth it.
3. If you're running Kiki, Tuktuk > Tinkerer.
Otherwise, good times.

[Jim Higginbottom]

i'm pretty sure shuffling after casting a ringleader is a pretty big downside to all your fetches...

[Cleston]

i'm pretty sure shuffling after casting a ringleader is a pretty big downside to all your fetches...

I have heard this argument before here at this board, but I wonder what about Matron? She makes us shuffle the deck as well. I won't keep myself from playing Matron just because my ringleader has cleaned some lands from the top...

[namrufmot]

5 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Rishadan Port
2 Ancient Ziggurat
1 Taiga
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Holligan
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie


It might end up being a miserable failure, but here is the deck I plan on testing over the next few days.

[Nelis]

I have heard this argument before here at this board, but I wonder what about Matron? She makes us shuffle the deck as well. I won't keep myself from playing Matron just because my ringleader has cleaned some lands from the top...

Because playing a Matron has a specific purpose which negates the downside of shuffling your lands back in.

[magicmerl]

So it seems like we are settling on a deck core or all 4s and 1s:

22 land (or 21 land with the 4th Mogg War Marshall)

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal

** 5 utility **
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Holligan / Tinkerer / TukTuk

** 2 fatties **
1 Krenko, Mob Boss / KikiJiki
1 SGC / Wort, Boggart Auntie

So the big questions is whether we want the 22 land, and our artifact destruction and fatty choices?

[Ace/Homebrew]

I haven't had a chance to practice with Maverick so I don't have a concrete plan against them when sideboarding. A friend at my LGS just built it so that will change.

Rishadan Port and Wasteland won my games against the Show and Tell decks. Goblin's "plan A" to flood the board is great, I had forgotten how important the "plan B" of mana denial is to winning close/bad matchups. I would have done much worse if my Ports were Mountains. Cleston, my advice would be to get your set of Ports first.

[Zupponn]

I run mono-R with SGC, Krenko, Tinkerer, and 21 lands. For lands I'm running 4 Caverns, 4 Wastelands, 2 Ports, and 11 Mountains. Krenko seems like my go-ahead guy when searching via Matron. I really like him.:smile:

[Final Fortune]

So it seems like we are settling on a deck core or all 4s and 1s:

22 land (or 21 land with the 4th Mogg War Marshall)

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal

** 5 utility **
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Holligan / Tinkerer / TukTuk

** 2 fatties **
1 Krenko, Mob Boss / KikiJiki
1 SGC / Wort, Boggart Auntie

So the big questions is whether we want the 22 land, and our artifact destruction and fatty choices?

Not certain I'd agree, I've been using 23 Lands with 4 Wasteland, 4 Rishadan Port, 4 Cavern of Souls and 11 Mountains and 4 Mogg Fanatics instead of the toolbox Goblins, all I play is 1 Krenko, Mob Boss and I really don't understand how you guys are consistently beating Maverick and Sneak/Show decks without being able to retard their mana development. I'm not even confident you can consistently beat Elves or have a chance against Dredge without Mogg Fanatic either, he's been the card that has pretty much held the deck together for me.

[magicmerl]

What's hard about maverick?

Mom is annoying, but matroning up Sharpshooter and waiting until Mom taps to kill her with incinerator in response is a line of play that works for me. And MWM is great against giant durdly dudes.

Sharpshooter is the nuts vs elves too.

[Amon Amarth]

Elves is harder without the extra removal but Maverick and Dredge aren't that hard. Post board you have Pyrokinesis which is enough to slow Evles down to lock 'em out with Sharpshooter. Maverick usually gives you quite a bit of time for you to set up or you can get the really aggressive Lackey into Incinerator on their blocker hands. Dredge feels even to me preboard. MWM does a good job of dying to remove bridges and Prospector is great here too. Sharpshooter cleans up dorks and SS bounces any DRed guys. Postboard GY hate buys you a couple turns which is almost always enough. I agree that Ports are invaluable against Show & Tell decks. I also play 23 lands +4 Ports.

[BigBopper]

Not certain I'd agree, I've been using 23 Lands with 4 Wasteland, 4 Rishadan Port, 4 Cavern of Souls and 11 Mountains and 4 Mogg Fanatics instead of the toolbox Goblins, all I play is 1 Krenko, Mob Boss and I really don't understand how you guys are consistently beating Maverick and Sneak/Show decks without being able to retard their mana development. I'm not even confident you can consistently beat Elves or have a chance against Dredge without Mogg Fanatic either, he's been the card that has pretty much held the deck together for me.

I am also holding fast on Mogg Fanatic (but only finding 2 slots for him). He's a beast in the Blade MU in terms of preventing combat damage.

@magicmerl: what's so hard about maverick? Jitte! 4x StP, Aven Mindsensor, KotR, combat tricks with Scryb Ranger-almost every card is better than ours. Only they don't have that card advantage machine...

[Pee-Dee-2]

Maverick: I never had problems against them and only lost one round during a tournament (and that was at GP day two). You can make it without fanatics or Ports. The card you need is called "Pyrokinesis". Surely they will kill you dudes with StoP, but so will do other decks.
Normally, if you keep a hand with a Pyrokinesis and some dudes, you will win.

Elves: I run Pyrokinesis main over Fanatics. You always can trade 2 cards for four of them (or two to four) and will win. A fanatic always trade 1:1 and is irrelevant in this matchup.

Ports: So far, I don't play Ports. Sometimes, you will win with them and sometimes you lose because of them so it's even. They shut down manlands but I never had Problems against a factory because it can only block one little green man. The problem is: You need two mana/lands to activate it. Why not play another Goblin for this two mana to keep pressure up? It's nice to handle a maze or to deal with Karakas, but you will also win against these decks without having a Port.

In my last testingsessions I tested Tower of Magistrate again becuase sometimes I lost against equipments in the past. I felt more safe with them and against Esper it is often like a wincondition. Stonebladedecks have problems with the tower and you often can overrun them while keeping the tower untapped.
And hey, you can handle Affinity, MUD or Factorys as well. So at the moment, if I want to play more nonbasics, I will play the tower in my meta.

Question: How do you guys play against Deadguy Ale (BW) and what are your favourites to board? I don't like ths matchup, Removal, Liliana, Equipments, hymn, Wastelands. They often have everything against me and draw each time the opposite of the card, I lay down an the table.

[hagar852]

Maverick: I never had problems against them and only lost one round during a tournament (and that was at GP day two). You can make it without fanatics or Ports. The card you need is called "Pyrokinesis". Surely they will kill you dudes with StoP, but so will do other decks.
Normally, if you keep a hand with a Pyrokinesis and some dudes, you will win.

Elves: I run Pyrokinesis main over Fanatics. You always can trade 2 cards for four of them (or two to four) and will win. A fanatic always trade 1:1 and is irrelevant in this matchup.

Ports: So far, I don't play Ports. Sometimes, you will win with them and sometimes you lose because of them so it's even. They shut down manlands but I never had Problems against a factory because it can only block one little green man. The problem is: You need two mana/lands to activate it. Why not play another Goblin for this two mana to keep pressure up? It's nice to handle a maze or to deal with Karakas, but you will also win against these decks without having a Port.

In my last testingsessions I tested Tower of Magistrate again becuase sometimes I lost against equipments in the past. I felt more safe with them and against Esper it is often like a wincondition. Stonebladedecks have problems with the tower and you often can overrun them while keeping the tower untapped.
And hey, you can handle Affinity, MUD or Factorys as well. So at the moment, if I want to play more nonbasics, I will play the tower in my meta.

Question: How do you guys play against Deadguy Ale (BW) and what are your favourites to board? I don't like ths matchup, Removal, Liliana, Equipments, hymn, Wastelands. They often have everything against me and draw each time the opposite of the card, I lay down an the table.

Yes I agree with what you said about Port as well. People bring up the fact how well it may work against whatever deck, but in reality those situations don't happen ALL the time. Too many times it mana screwed me off of enough red to cast more goblins, which gave the other player more time or extra chance to stabilize the board.

The tower is also an interesting addition that my friend and I tried testing as well. Need more time to look at it though before making any conclusions, but on paper it is like the "Rishadan Port" for equipment and artifacts sort of speak.

[Cleston]

Rishadan Port and Wasteland won my games against the Show and Tell decks. Goblin's "plan A" to flood the board is great, I had forgotten how important the "plan B" of mana denial is to winning close/bad matchups. I would have done much worse if my Ports were Mountains. Cleston, my advice would be to get your set of Ports first.

I appreciate the answer, tks. My plan so far for this matchup was buying the stuff for a black splash and trying to run some form of disruption + chalice + 2 stingscourger main deck.

Despite the thread not reaching a consensus over Rishadan Port, I'll definitely try to have a playset close at hand.

[L10]

Before buying a set of Ports, proxy them and use it at your LGS. As long as you are playing in casuals and tell people ahead of time, most people do not mind proxies for testing. Ports are an expensive commitment.

[jrw1985]

Man, I'm so excited to play Goblins at SCG Minneapolis this Sunday! Gonna try to go 2-for-2 on SCG Top-8's. The thingsI'm wondering about are:
Should I swap out the 3 Pryblast/REBs from the sideboard for Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm/Mindbreak Trap?
Should I run a 2nd Surgical Extraction over Faerie Macabre in the SB?
Should I find room in the manabase for a Karakas?
Should I replace Goblin King with something good?

The list as it stands...

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
6 Mountain
5 fetchlands
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Gilded Drake
1 Goblin King

[Amon Amarth]

I'd take out the Faerie for the 3rd Relic. Faerie is only better against Reanimator. I think running a split like that is cute but not optimal. Get rid of that Goblin King too. He doesn't solve any of the difficult matchups and isn't even that great against the fair decks. Krenko would do everything you would want Goblin King to do but much better.

[ScatmanX]

Should I swap out the 3 Pryblast/REBs from the sideboard for Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm/Mindbreak Trap?
Should I run a 2nd Surgical Extraction over Faerie Macabre in the SB?
Should I find room in the manabase for a Karakas?
Should I replace Goblin King with something good?
- I still belive that 6 U sources are to few to support Pierce. Keep those ReB there if you like them.
- I like the Fearie 1-off. Depends. Do you think you'll see a lot of Reanimator. Surgical is ook against SnT decks that play Intuition or Limdul's Vault, which is apparently becoming a thing.
- Only if you cut Ports. 12 R sources is limit low to use Gempalm/ReB in my opinion.
- Maybe a Boartusk Liege? If goblins is DtB, you may find yourself battling against E.Plague or Firespout on the early rounds. (This would also be an argument on twicking the manabase a little, because Pierce can win you some games against E.Plague if well timed, and those decks also usually run Seize/Inquisition/Hymn/Top/removal, so Pierce is almost never dead).

Good luck on SCGO. Hope to hear good news!

[magicmerl]

6 Mountain
5 fetchlands
1 Volcanic Island
Why do you run more targets than fetches? Wouldn't running 6 fetches and 5 mountains and a single volcanic island just be better?

[Cleston]

Before buying a set of Ports, proxy them and use it at your LGS. As long as you are playing in casuals and tell people ahead of time, most people do not mind proxies for testing. Ports are an expensive commitment.

for sure I'll test them with my team mates before buying, it's just that now I need to start watching them on ebay...

[jrw1985]

Why do you run more targets than fetches? Wouldn't running 6 fetches and 5 mountains and a single volcanic island just be better?

Not really. It's an insignificant change in the grand scheme of things. I'm just using the numbers I am because I'm playing around with an "averaged" list, as I've mentioned before. Also, I don't really need the splash, but it's nice to have a available for the two MUs I'll side in Drake for.

But I'm interested In why you think an even ratio of fetches to targets is better.

[Pee-Dee-2]

Why does nobody answer my question or talk about the tower (except of hagar)? :rolleyes:

[dunk]

Tower is just another colorless mana source that weakens concistence. Over the course of 7 or 8 rounds it will probably be only useful in 2 matches and screw you in all the others. Unless the meta is full of jittes and batterskull I don't see why you want to run any.

[magicmerl]

Not really. It's an insignificant change in the grand scheme of things. I'm just using the numbers I am because I'm playing around with an "averaged" list, as I've mentioned before. Also, I don't really need the splash, but it's nice to have a available for the two MUs I'll side in Drake for.

But I'm interested In why you think an even ratio of fetches to targets is better.
More fetches means more sources of blue mana, and a better manabase. I think that the life loss is pretty negligible, and you will basically never have the situation of having fetches to crack and no mountain to fetch up with 6 fetches and 6 targets. When would you need more than 7 lands in play? Even with 6 fetches I think you are pushing it for the splash.

Here's the current list I am tinkering with:

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Skirk Prospector

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
7 fetchlands
6 Mountain
1 Taiga

Sideboard
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Pyroblast
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Goblin Tinkerer

[Lorenzo767]

Hi, after month i decided to restart play testing this deck, and i would like to begin from the list that made top 8 at Gen Con, but i have some question:
What you think of Krenko? it's a good choice?
Are really necessary four copies of MWM?

[fimo]

Man, I'm so excited to play Goblins at SCG Minneapolis this Sunday! Gonna try to go 2-for-2 on SCG Top-8's. The thingsI'm wondering about are:
Should I swap out the 3 Pryblast/REBs from the sideboard for Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm/Mindbreak Trap?
Should I run a 2nd Surgical Extraction over Faerie Macabre in the SB?
Should I find room in the manabase for a Karakas?
Should I replace Goblin King with something good?

The list as it stands...

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver


EDIT: @lorenzo767. Krenko is very good. He should be AT LEAST a 1-of imo, I play 2. MWM is good but he is not necessarily a 4-of.
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
6 Mountain
5 fetchlands
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Gilded Drake
1 Goblin King

I would adjust the mana base as follows:

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
5 Mountain
7 fetchlands
1 Volcanic Island

You never need more than 5 basics.
Since you splash blue I would replace pyroblast/REB for spell pierce. They could also help you against E. plague.
goblin king is not needed.
I agree with scatmanX regarding karakas.

[feline]

Yes Krenko is worth the hype, it's just dumb!

As far as Mogg war Marshall goes, I've been pushing 4 ever since I made the deck, it makes Goblin Piledriver stronger, the Marshall itself can block and you don't even have to pay the upkeep, just tricks here and there.

[Nelis]

As far as Mogg war Marshall goes, I've been pushing 4 ever since I made the deck, it makes Goblin Piledriver stronger, the Marshall itself can block and you don't even have to pay the upkeep, just tricks here and there.

I agree. Mogg War Marshal allows you to play control when necessary, works nice with Sharpshooter and Skirk Prospector. And it can solve occasional mana problems (with Prospector) like when you run Rishadan Ports.

And it's more fun having to decide if you pay the upkeep cost or not. :laugh:

[Lorenzo767]

Yes Krenko is worth the hype, it's just dumb!

As far as Mogg war Marshall goes, I've been pushing 4 ever since I made the deck, it makes Goblin Piledriver stronger, the Marshall itself can block and you don't even have to pay the upkeep, just tricks here and there.

I presume it was good, but the problem is which card from this LIST (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8917&iddeck=65153) can i cut to give it a try!

In the SB i was thinking to play Chalice of The Void that is a great card that i played for a lot of time in the sb of this deck, it is useful versu combo like TES and Spiral Tide and it's also reusable in a lot of others MU (Burn, Fast Zoo,Canadian, ecc.) maybe i would like to try something like this:


1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Grafdigger's Cage/Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Tin Street Hooligan

What you think? Any advice?

[Cleston]

I presume it was good, but the problem is which card from this LIST (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8917&iddeck=65153) can i cut to give it a try!

In the SB i was thinking to play Chalice of The Void that is a great card that i played for a lot of time in the sb of this deck, it is useful versu combo like TES and Spiral Tide and it's also reusable in a lot of others MU (Burn, Fast Zoo,Canadian, ecc.) maybe i would like to try something like this:


1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Grafdigger's Cage/Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Tin Street Hooligan

What you think? Any advice?

it seems to me that this list avoided krenko for the double R cost, as it is running 4 rishadan ports as plan B.

but if I had to cut one copy of something to include him, it would be either one incinerator or one war marshall. I wouldn't cut any of the one-ofs, and any of the other four-ofs.

as for sideboard, I myself haven't decided on one yet, but yours looks fine. I've found leyline is more to my liking, though.

[Humphrey]

ok guys. ive done it.
i didnt want to, but i think its necessary.

I finally added the most ridiculously overpowered card to the deck. After I had to splash blue for sideboard options anyway.

-4 Goblins
+4 Brainstorm

[fimo]

ok guys. ive done it.
i didnt want to, but i think its necessary.

I finally added the most ridiculously overpowered card to the deck. After I had to splash blue for sideboard options anyway.

-4 Goblins
+4 Brainstorm

Interesting, I m very much looking forward to hear how it plays out

[that0neguy]

I know someone that tried brainstorm a few years back and the problem is that its not a goblin, so your ringleaders just got weaker. Also depending on which goblins you cut, it can make your curve awkward.

Also, not even merfolk runs brainstorm, its not what they want to be doing with their mana, and I don't think its what Goblins wants to be doing either.

[GoboLord]

I know someone that tried brainstorm a few years back and the problem is that its not a goblin, so your ringleaders just got weaker. Also depending on which goblins you cut, it can make your curve awkward.

Also, not even merfolk runs brainstorm, its not what they want to be doing with their mana, and I don't think its what Goblins wants to be doing either.

I#m pretty sure that this "someone" was NOT me, but I tested brainstorm too. Its as simple as this: it doesn't improve our hand sigificantly since virtually any card on hand is good. So the result is much like this:

Hand before BS:
Goblin, Goblin, Goblin, Brainstorm

Hand after BS:
Goblin, Goblin, Goblin, Goblin

Plus, we usually don't have the option to use it like an "Ancenstral Recall" (i.e. drawing 3 juicy cards and topping 2 Lands), because we either need more lands or don't have any lands left. In the latter case we just change goblins for goblins.

[kombatkiwi]

I know someone that tried brainstorm a few years back and the problem is that its not a goblin, so your ringleaders just got weaker. Also depending on which goblins you cut, it can make your curve awkward.

Also, not even merfolk runs brainstorm, its not what they want to be doing with their mana, and I don't think its what Goblins wants to be doing either.

You could argue that it makes ringleader stronger, you can draw lands and put goblins back to guarantee some ringleader flips.

But I agree, it's not what goblins wants to be doing with its mana

[Humphrey]

Often I got flooded or screwed or got a hand full of useless goblins.

[Cleston]

Often I got flooded or screwed or got a hand full of useless goblins.

my friend, allow me to tell you that, if this was not a trolling of your part, you're probably playing the wrong deck.

[Humphrey]

my friend, allow me to tell you that, if this was not a trolling of your part, you're probably playing the wrong deck.

dude im playing goblins since this format is called legacy

[Cleston]

elaborate then on the point of a useless goblin in hand.

[fimo]

Also, not even merfolk runs brainstorm, its not what they want to be doing with their mana, and I don't think its what Goblins wants to be doing either.

The fact that merfolk doesn t play brainstorm doesn t mean a thing. Merfolk is a completely different deck.

[Humphrey]

elaborate then on the point of a useless goblin in hand.

CC>3 goblins on your starting 7 without vial or lackey.
Lackeys lategame
Useless utiility goblins like tuktuk or sharpshooter in certain matchups.

[Cleston]

CC>3 goblins on your starting 7 without vial or lackey.
Lackeys lategame
Useless utiility goblins like tuktuk or sharpshooter in certain matchups.

but how come those are useless? the whole point of the deck is to apply pressure and gain card advantage just so you can have a load of critters, isn't it?

in the first situation, a mulligan could solve the problem. lackeys late game are still goblins, and cheap ones, if or when you've got a board they could be doing nice things like beating with haste, or increasing board presence for gempalms and piledrivers. it's a pity when they come late, but it's better than drawing a mountain, i guess. the utility goblins can also attack, and sharpshooter can dome well with echo and prospectors.

when I say wrong deck what I'm suggesting is that maybe you're probably expecting things from the deck that it isn't supposed to be doing? hand and library manipulation are cute, and I can see it getting you out of a bad situation, but still it seems just too "smart" for a deck that wants to unload and smash, when playing aggro, or playing a cheater and avoiding mana, when playing control.

(which is just to say I don't like the concept, not denying any kind of results, of course, since I haven't tested it)

[Humphrey]

Im def not sure that BS will work here, im just testing it, but I can see 2 BS might work in gobs.

[Pee-Dee-2]

@humphrey: Nice to see you testing that card but:

Do you really want to play a card for which you have to fetch at first and show you opponent you SB-color?
And than, BS only will do well if you have fetchies and/or Matron. But if you have a Matron, you don't need any BS.
I think a Brainstorm is like it's in Merfolk not more as a "U: Cycle this card".
You also coud play SDT ;)

[namrufmot]

What is everyone's experience playing with Wort?

I've been testing playing 1 Wort over 1 SCG, but havent had sufficent time.

[magicmerl]

I presume it was good, but the problem is which card from this LIST (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8917&iddeck=65153) can i cut to give it a try!
I think that the first Krenko is hands down better than the 4th Mogg War Marshal.


In the SB i was thinking to play Chalice of The Void that is a great card that i played for a lot of time in the sb of this deck, it is useful versu combo like TES and Spiral Tide and it's also reusable in a lot of others MU (Burn, Fast Zoo,Canadian, ecc.) maybe i would like to try something like this:

3 Grafdigger's Cage/Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice Of The Void
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan

What you think? Any advice?
I think that you don't seem to have enough graveyard hate. I think that you need 5 slots minimum vs GY strategies. I think that the Hooligan should be another relic, and one of your other cards should be too.

Here's the coverage I think we are aiming for:
5-6 vs Graveyard
3-4 vs storm/combo
2-4 vs blue
2-4 vs creatures

Now, obviously you can't max all of those slots since you don't have room for 18 cards. I personally think that a 5-4-3-3 configuration helps you without being too distorted in any matchup.

[jrw1985]

What is everyone's experience playing with Wort?

I've been testing playing 1 Wort over 1 SCG, but havent had sufficent time.

Wort sucks. 4cc, 2 colors, doesn't do anything, and slow slow slow. Don't play him. Just don't do it. Play Krenko, play 2 SGC, play anything else.

[Lord Gibbo]

I think that you don't seem to have enough graveyard hate. I think that you need 5 slots minimum vs GY strategies. I think that the Hooligan should be another relic, and one of your other cards should be too.

Here's the coverage I think we are aiming for:
5-6 vs Graveyard
3-4 vs storm/combo
2-4 vs blue
2-4 vs creatures

Now, obviously you can't max all of those slots since you don't have room for 18 cards. I personally think that a 5-4-3-3 configuration helps you without being too distorted in any matchup.

Why 5-6 GY in your sidebord?
In Which MU you side in so much GY? (Obviously VS Reanimator and Ichorid... But is your meta so full of this decks?)
I realy don't know... Italian Metagame is problably a bit different...

[Final Fortune]

Why 5-6 GY in your sidebord?
In Which MU you side in so much GY? (Obviously VS Reanimator and Ichorid... But is your meta so full of this decks?)
I realy don't know... Italian Metagame is problably a bit different...

If you're not playing 4 Leyline of the Void or a 3/3 split of Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt you punt the entire matchup, especially if you're not playing with 4 Mogg Fanatic vs Dredge.

[raindrainxi]

You can also use them to shrink goyfs and and geese, but 5-6 is a bit too much. I think 4 is enough for specific GY hate, personally I prefer 2 Grafdigger's and 2 Relics. An early resolved Graf can buy us enough time against reanimator. Never really had a problem getting them in a 2-2 split.

My question is, in a UW Miracle infested meta, do we necessarily need to put 3-4 Sulfuric Vortex? My problem with this is that I can't really find any other relevant deck to side in vortex, which messes up our SBing goal, which is versatility. With that, I think that 4 CotV is king.

So the sideboard dilemma looks like this:

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
X REB / Pyroblast
X Sulfuric Vortex

Any other suggestions? Is Surgical Extraction really good?

[Lord Gibbo]

If you're not playing 4 Leyline of the Void or a 3/3 split of Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt you punt the entire matchup, especially if you're not playing with 4 Mogg Fanatic vs Dredge.

Ok, I agree with you... But this isn't what i asked...

I'm just asking if you side in GYhate in other MU than Reanimator and Ichorid.

Italian metagame isn't full of Ichorid at all and Reanimator is a small part of the meta...

[Davran]

Ok, I agree with you... But this isn't what i asked...

I'm just asking if you side in GYhate in other MU than Reanimator and Ichorid.

Italian metagame isn't full of Ichorid at all and Reanimator is a small part of the meta...

GY hate (mostly Relic) is sometimes useful vs. RUG/Canadian and other goyf decks (Maverick, BUG etc.)...it really depends though. Keeping RUG off of threshold and/or using Wasteland + Surgical extraction on one of their colors will help with the match some, but it's not super necessary for us to win.

[Lord Gibbo]

GY hate (mostly Relic) is sometimes useful vs. RUG/Canadian and other goyf decks (Maverick, BUG etc.)...it really depends though. Keeping RUG off of threshold and/or using Wasteland + Surgical extraction on one of their colors will help with the match some, but it's not super necessary for us to win.

I'm playing this sb right now:

2 F macabre
2 surgical extraction
3 Pyrokinesis
3 torn of ametist (not shure on this)
3 REB
2 Ancient grudge

VS Maverik I side in 3 pyrokinesis and 1/2 ancient grudge
VS Canadian: 1/2 surgical and 2 Pyrokinesis

Do you think Relic will be better than this card?
If it is, probably, I can run 2 relic and cut 2 Grudge...

[Davran]

I'm playing this sb right now:

2 F macabre
2 surgical extraction
3 Pyrokinesis
3 torn of ametist (not shure on this)
3 REB
2 Ancient grudge

VS Maverik I side in 3 pyrokinesis and 1/2 ancient grudge
VS Canadian: 1/2 surgical and 2 Pyrokinesis

Do you think Relic will be better than this card?
If it is, probably, I can run 2 relic and cut 2 Grudge...

I think Surgical is better vs. RUG than Relic, but I haven't had any opportunity to test that theory (I don't own any Surgical). Ideally, you'll be able to Wasteland + Surgical to keep them off of a color, or somehow deal with a Goyf and remove the rest.

I don't really like Ancient Grudge in goblins. If you're in need of one, you can't go grab it with matron. If you're not in need of one, it sits in your hand or gets buried via Ringleader. Assuming that you're splashing green for the flashback (I didn't go back and look for your list), try out Tin Street Hooligan. It's both fetchable and can attack/block when needed.

As for your plan vs. Maverick, that seems fine. Depending on my mood, I might put one or two Relic in vs. them, but it doesn't happen very often.

Thorn of Amethyst is fine as combo hate. It's better vs. Hive Mind and Hypergenesis than Chalice, and it has some uses vs. decks like Burn. In my mind, the hierarchy is something like this:

Chalice > Thorn > Mindbreak Trap/Surgical > Pyrostatic Pillar

For reference, my board looks like this right now:

4x Chalice of the Void (Burn/Storm/Elves)
3x Relic of Progenitus (Dredge/Reanimator/RUG)
2x Shattering Spree (Affinity/Maverick/Stoneblade)
2x Pithing Needle (Miracle/BUG/Stoneblade/Many others)
2x Anarchy (Miracle/Maverick/Enchantress)
1x Goblin Sharpshooter (Storm/Belcher/Elves/UWb Blade)
1x Boartusk Liege (BUG/Pox/Black Decks) - I'm expecting Engineered Plague to be more popular.

Note that I run 2x Pyrokinesis in the main deck which helped to free up some slots in the board.

[movingtonewao]

has anyone tested against the new omni-tell combo decks? how do we fare against them?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Poorly... If they resolve Omniscience then we've lost (kinda like Hive Mind). If they go for a fattie (Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Griselbrand) then we have a chance to Sting them away.

[that0neguy]

If you are running Chalice for Combo, don't you want to bring it in against rug as well. It shuts off most of their burn, their mongeese, delvers, grim lavamancers, cantrips, ect. It leaves them with Goyf, Daze, Force and maybe fire/ice if they run it (rare).

As a RUG player, I would be 1000x more afraid of Chalice for 1 than a Relic. For Relic to be really backbreaking against RUG, you need to have it on turn 1, or you need 2 of them. And even then, if I have a hand with Delvers and Goyfs instead of mongeese, I still might not be afraid of it.

[jrw1985]

If you are running Chalice for Combo, don't you want to bring it in against rug as well. It shuts off most of their burn, their mongeese, delvers, grim lavamancers, cantrips, ect. It leaves them with Goyf, Daze, Force and maybe fire/ice if they run it (rare).

As a RUG player, I would be 1000x more afraid of Chalice for 1 than a Relic. For Relic to be really backbreaking against RUG, you need to have it on turn 1, or you need 2 of them. And even then, if I have a hand with Delvers and Goyfs instead of mongeese, I still might not be afraid of it.

Relic T1 is a bad play. It will just be countered, Grudged, or Stifled. If you want to get value out of a Relic you need to turn a bunch of guys sideways, draw out some chump blocks, then cast and pop relic post-combat to wipe their board.

[magicmerl]

Why 5-6 GY in your sidebord?
In Which MU you side in so much GY? (Obviously VS Reanimator and Ichorid... But is your meta so full of this decks?)
I realy don't know... Italian Metagame is problably a bit different...
It's not so much that they are a massive part of the metagame, as that we auto-lose to them otherwise.

[movingtonewao]

Poorly... If they resolve Omniscience then we've lost (kinda like Hive Mind). If they go for a fattie (Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Griselbrand) then we have a chance to Sting them away.

so other than bounce an academy rector as it sits on the opposing side of the board, theres nothing else we can do right? When the rector dies Omniscience appears and we're dead?

That really sucks.

[lordofthepit]

so other than bounce an academy rector as it sits on the opposing side of the board, theres nothing else we can do right? When the rector dies Omniscience appears and we're dead?

That really sucks.

You can use most forms of graveyard hate to remove the Academy Rector in response to the trigger. It has to be a replacement effect (Leyline, Wheel) or instant-speed removal though (Crypt, Ooze, Macabre, Extraction, etc.).

[Amon Amarth]

Relic T1 is a bad play. It will just be countered, Grudged, or Stifled. If you want to get value out of a Relic you need to turn a bunch of guys sideways, draw out some chump blocks, then cast and pop relic post-combat to wipe their board.

In addition exposing it to Daze, which should never counter it, as well as prioritizing it above Lackey or Vial is a mistake.

[LPEuler]

For reference, my board looks like this right now:

4x Chalice of the Void (Burn/Storm/Elves)
3x Relic of Progenitus (Dredge/Reanimator/RUG)
2x Shattering Spree (Affinity/Maverick/Stoneblade)
2x Pithing Needle (Miracle/BUG/Stoneblade/Many others)
2x Anarchy (Miracle/Maverick/Enchantress)
1x Goblin Sharpshooter (Storm/Belcher/Elves/UWb Blade)
1x Boartusk Liege (BUG/Pox/Black Decks) - I'm expecting Engineered Plague to be more popular.

Note that I run 2x Pyrokinesis in the main deck which helped to free up some slots in the board.

The boardstuck liege is only for the +1/+1 I guess?
Why not then putting a Chieftain, it will give also haste to your goblins and costs 1 mana less.


If you are running Chalice for Combo, don't you want to bring it in against rug as well. It shuts off most of their burn, their mongeese, delvers, grim lavamancers, cantrips, ect. It leaves them with Goyf, Daze, Force and maybe fire/ice if they run it (rare).

As a RUG player, I would be 1000x more afraid of Chalice for 1 than a Relic. For Relic to be really backbreaking against RUG, you need to have it on turn 1, or you need 2 of them. And even then, if I have a hand with Delvers and Goyfs instead of mongeese, I still might not be afraid of it.

I agree with you.
Chalice is one of the best against RUG. I usually side against this match-up my 3 Chalices and my 2 REBs.
Of course, don't be too greedy and cast it on turn 3 in case they hold a daze in hand! (And if you have REB you can counter their FoW!).

[Annatar]

I don't think Chalice of the Void is as good as advertised against RUG Delver.

For one thing, they have to many efficient counters that can stop it resolving. Also, a chalice on 1 also negates one of, if not the best, card you can play against them: Aether Vial.

As a rule of thumb, I normally side out Aether Vial against matchups in which I side in Chalice of the Void, and even then not all of them, two at most. Against Elves or Burn Vial itself doesn't do nearly as much as a resolved chalice and on it's own it can be quite poor against those decks, even on turn one, since they are faster then you are.

Against RUG, however, there is probably no other card you would care more about resolving. That's why I don't see the point in sideing in a card that makes our strongest card in that matchup worse.

[Cleston]

fellow warchiefs,

- supposing we have 5 ways to go, which are: the way of the Mountain, of the Taiga, of the Plateau, of the Volcanic Island and of the Badlands,

- someone previously provoked a discussion about the blue splash, and today it just came to my mind that maybe we should be aiming at Vapor Snag as the blue card of choice, over Spell Pierce or Brainstorm, which were previously considered.

- yeah, I know it makes our ringleaders worse, and I know it can be countered. ignore that, for a while, please, because every no-goblin and every no-creature we decide to test will have those drawbacks. I'm just wondering if that improves any matchup better than the cards considered.

- besides that specific point, I'm trying to come up with ideas for creatures in each and every path, since caverns and vials makes them much more reliable than normal spells (yeah, it still makes our ringleaders worse, but...)

- I already bought myself some Rishadan Ports (the 6th way? lol), but as I'm also investing on my duals, I want to have my packages well planned.



When you play goblins the first time on a scene, nobody knows you're a goblin. When you come back next time, wouldn't you want to be playing a different tuned deck? A different splash? A different way?

thoughts?

[Davran]

Relic T1 is a bad play. It will just be countered, Grudged, or Stifled. If you want to get value out of a Relic you need to turn a bunch of guys sideways, draw out some chump blocks, then cast and pop relic post-combat to wipe their board.

Definitely agree here. Playing around Daze is a pretty solid strategy in this match up.


The boardstuck liege is only for the +1/+1 I guess?
Why not then putting a Chieftain, it will give also haste to your goblins and costs 1 mana less.

I run Chieftain over Warchief in the main. Chieftain is all well and good, but Boartusk is the only creature we have access to that is capable of surviving double plague. I prefer to have the out if needed rather than auto-losing to plague.

[Justin]

I don't think Chalice of the Void is as good as advertised against RUG Delver.

For one thing, they have to many efficient counters that can stop it resolving. Also, a chalice on 1 also negates one of, if not the best, card you can play against them: Aether Vial.

As a rule of thumb, I normally side out Aether Vial against matchups in which I side in Chalice of the Void, and even then not all of them, two at most. Against Elves or Burn Vial itself doesn't do nearly as much as a resolved chalice and on it's own it can be quite poor against those decks, even on turn one, since they are faster then you are.

Against RUG, however, there is probably no other card you would care more about resolving. That's why I don't see the point in sideing in a card that makes our strongest card in that matchup worse.

Your logic about Chalice of the Void and siding out Vial is flawed. You should play both cards together. Aether Vial is really only great if you have it early and are casting it during the first two turns. Resolving a Vial later in the game is not a lot of help, as it will likely be too slow. You typically want to cast a Vial or Lackey on turn one (and you will mulligan most hands that don't include one of those two spells). Then you can drop your Chalice@1 on turn two. If you have more than one Vial/Lackey, you have the option of droping the extra(s) on turn two and save Chalice for turn three. Also, there are some matchups that you will want to side in Chalice to set it at zero, before one, so it doesn't conflict with your one-drops.

Although it is true that Vial is not great against fast combo decks, players should be careful about siding it out. You should think of Vial as a mana source (and mana accelerator) rather than a normal spell. It acts as a busted Sol Ring for this deck. If you board out Vials, you increase your chances of losing to mana screw.

[jrw1985]

Played last night, went 2-1-1
Pox 2-0
Dredge 1-2
RUG Delver 1-1-1
RUG Delver 2-0

It felt good. I actually won G1 against Dredge, but mulled into a hand without hate G2 and a hand with hate but no gas G3. When playing against Dredge it is incredibly important that you actually have a playable hand against them. You can't just drop hate and hope they fizzle. you need to back up your hate with some game.
The RUG matches felt really good. I actually won G1 in R3, but I lost G2 because I kept a hand with excellent hate (Extraction + Wasteland took all his Tropicals T1), but it didn't have enough game to answer the resolved Delver that flipped and beat me down. I couldn't believe I lost that game.

[namrufmot]

Local tourney with about 28 people attending. Went 2-3 with the following list.

6 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Badlands

4 AEther Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Red Elemental Blasts
2 Pyrokensis
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger

Report:

I lost a random janky Infect/Poison deck! He used a 2/2 dude with pro red and white. Despite Pyrokenesis on his weenies in one game and Sharpshooter in another, he double Invigorated the pro red dude and I lost games 1 and 3. I hang my head in shame. How can I stop pro red creatures?? 1-2

I beat a Stoneblade deck. Turn 1 Lackey kept me on the offensive. I Hooliganed his Jitte, and he got got a chance to get rolling. 2-0

I lost a a random G/R/W deck centered around Noble Heriarchs, Oozes, Goyfs, Natactls, Esperth, Maze of Ith and a butt load of burn. He's burn my Warchiefs/Lackeys and swing with 3/3 or larger creatures forcing me to chump. Once he dropped a Jitte or Swords of Fire and Ice it was game over. Pyrokensis did me no good. 1-2

Beat a Threshold deck. He stomped on me game one with Geese and Goyfs. I think he got every counter in his opening hand. Second game I got Chalice a 1 for game. Game three he got land screwed and my Wastes made sure it stayed that way. On a side note I started the game with 3 Caverns and 3 lackeys in my hand. :D 2-1

I lost to a strange B/G/W deck. It seems like he took every good card and through it in a deck. Cliques, Goyfs, Snapcaster, Jace. Game 1 he counters and Mazes me and swings with massive Goyfs. Game 2 I just pound face and he can't find answers. Game 3 I REB his Jace and Ancestral Visions...then he draws into 2 massive Goyfs, Cliques a Ringleader and I lose. 1-2

I'm not sure why I didn't do so well. I didn't think I'd run into as many creatures as I did. 2 Pyrokenesis int he SB wasn't enough. What else can gobbos use for mass removal? Perish only works against Green....


Even though people said not to play Wort I gave her a go. She only hit the table once, I got a Gempalm back then she was Swords'd. If she sticks around she can be an abolsute beast. Better than a SCG or 2nd Krenko?

Despite the somewhat strange lands, I never had a problem casting any goblins I needed. Splashing two colors if we choose is VERY doable.

[orcanmail]

Went 4 and 0 in a local tourney beating reanimator, RUG, a Thalia deck, and a Goblin classic warchief deck.
Some close games. Tarfire and stingcourger saw me over the line plus also playing around daze, In the mirror my chieftains and pyros destroyed the warchief build.

My decklist is

4 wasteland
16 mountains ( no caverns or fetches v stifles and wastelands )

4 lackeys
4 vials
4 tarfires
3 MWM
2 Piledrivers
2 Winstigators
2 Stingscourgers
4 Gempalms
4 Matrons
4 Chieftains
1 Krenko
4 Ringleaders
2 Siege Gangs

SB
3 pyro
2 relic v Goyfs
2 Grave( GY Hate v reanimator )
4 chalice
3 thorn of amethyst
1 boartusk liege v e.plagues

The list seems solid and is good in the mirror. It has lots of removal but every card in game 1 is useful. tarfires deal damage, stingers and gempalms can double up as goblins. i try to keep the curve down, and chieftains add to early damage. krenko, gang bangs and tarfires can get you over the finish line.

[jrw1985]

At the convention very in Minneapolis, waiting for the Legacy Open to start. Wish me luck, Sourcers. Looking at this field of assassins I'm gonna need it.

[BigBopper]

At the convention very in Minneapolis, waiting for the Legacy Open to start. Wish me luck, Sourcers. Looking at this field of assassins I'm gonna need it.

All the luck to you! Looking forward to see you on the live stream!

[Chatto]

Good luck to you sir! Looking forward to read your report!

[Amon Amarth]

Don't stream the Open right now. Oh lordy. So bad.

[Steamflogger]

Too late man... I did witness this tragedy. Almost fascinating how bad those two matches were.

[Amon Amarth]

It was like... bad. It was a lesson in "why siding in Surgical Extraction against all decks is bad" among other things. How was he 7-0 playing like that?

[namrufmot]

What happened? Fill us in!

[Amon Amarth]

Watch Kenny Dungar's two matches, they should be archived.

[namrufmot]

Got a link? I just combed SCG and couldnt find it!

[Amon Amarth]

I think it should be archived sometime tonight. Regardless, he's in the Top 8, which is pretty crazy, 8 different archetypes.

[magicmerl]

Got a link? I just combed SCG and couldnt find it!
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/330864343

It does highlight how bad Surgical Extraction is (and how good Rishadan Port and Thalia are).

[Humphrey]

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/330864343

It does highlight how bad Surgical Extraction is (and how good Rishadan Port and Thalia are).

Well actually does it highlight how bad Port is, too. Because he sits on 1 Caverns, cant cycle the gempalm or cast many goblins.

[GoboLord]

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/330864343

It does highlight how bad Surgical Extraction is (and how good Rishadan Port and Thalia are).

This game only highlights how bad that dude is playing... I mean srsly - he only wins game 3 because his opponent doesnt know how to use Brainstorm properly...

@ Humphrey: where did you find this situation? he never drew Gempalms in the course of the games

[Steamflogger]

Wow.. and he even made it 4th.


(and how good Rishadan Port and Thalia are).

I just rewatched both matches. Thalia did nothing but to attack. In six games. Although I know that she should have done better against Know & Tell, I would rather side in Thorn of Amethyst and add three goblins to the main deck.

@Humphrey
I actually think port performed well. He just forgot to activate it when his opponent was one landdraw away from hardcasting Griselbrand. This one Gempalm was just win-more. He was even good enough casted as a creature.

[movingtonewao]

he might've found the surgical extractions useful had he met omni-tell instead.

[jrw1985]

Tourney report of a long tournament! I never made it to the SCG stream, and things didn't go as well as I hoped in the tourney. Playing the following decklist:
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
5 Mountain
6 fetchlands
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Spell Pierce
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Gilded Drake
1 Goblin King

My last minute audible was adding 1 more fetch in place of a mountain and swapping out the SB REBs for Pierces.

R1 - RUG Delver
On the Draw
G1 He's throwing around FoW left and right but never gets pressure going, so I win.
G2 He keeps a Volcanic, Wasteland hand with a few burn spells. I T1 Waste his Volcanic and win.
Rounds 1-0
Games 2-0
I will say that my RUG Delver MU has gotten much better since adding MWM to my repertoire.

R2 UR Omni Tell
On the Draw
G1 I'm on the draw and only get to connect once with Lackey before he Shows Omni and hardcasts Emrakul. That'll play around Stingscourger.
G2 He's mana-light and plays a lot Sorcery speed dig spells (Ponder, Preordain), so I use 2x Ports to keep him off U and slowly beat him down. Not being able to cast his dig spells wrecks him.
G3 See G1.
It sucked to be x-1 so early in the tourney, but at least it was against a horrible MU I'd never played against before and at least I picked up 1 win along the way.
1-1
3-2

R3 RUG (no Delver)
On the Draw
G1 He's playing a Grove of the Burnwillows RUG build with Ancestral Visions. Every game this match he T1 suspends Ancestral. G1 I stabilize at 5 life and grind it out.
G2 was another grindy match, but he had the burn to finish me off this time.
G3 started with 6:30 left on the clock. Time was called during our game. I managed to resolve a Krenko and Warchief and was able to get the W on T4 of extra turns.
2-1
5-3

R4 Maverick
On the Draw
G1 Resolved Krenko. W.
G2 Mulled to 5 on the Draw. Didn't get there.
G3 Mulled to 5 on the play. My opponent mulled to 4. W.
3-1
7-4

R5 Maverick
On the Draw
G1 At one point his board was something like Mom, Mom, Dryad Arbor, Hierarch, KoTR. I had a Warchief in play and a Vial @ 3. I attacked with some guys, he blocked and gave something Pro Red. I responded by Gempalming Mom, so he responded by giving her pro Red, so I responded by activating Vial for Sharpshooter then wiped 4 cards off his board. Then I resolved Krenko and won.
G2 I mull to 5. He resolves Fauna Shaman and 2 KoTR and is able to use their activation to generate enough mana to tutor for then play an Elsh Norn. yup.
G3 I mull to 6 and start off pretty stron but a Dueling Ground soon puts an end to my fun. The format has been pretty averse to Propaganda effects (thanks Emrakul), but Dueling grounds fits in perfectly with a deck that plays Maze and KotR. After dinking around for a while he's able to Tutor up Elsh Norn again. I pray to the Sun Gods to miracle top deck Guilded Drake. It is not to be.
3-2
8-6
Top 8 ain't happening at this point, but Top 64 still pays out. 64-33 $50 (Covers entry and concessions), 32-9 $100, so I'm going to try and win out still.

R6 Ubgrw Omni Tell
On the Draw
G1 He resolves SnT.
G2 I resolve a Grafdigger's Cage to keep him from Flashing back Cabal Therapy off of Rector. I use Wastes to disrupt his development and somehow manage the W.
G3 He Shows Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, I bounce it. He Shows it again. I have an active Krenko that nets me enough tokens to survive the Annihilator trigger. I take 10 and kill him on the return swing. Sweet.
4-2
10-7

R7 BUG Control
On the Draw
G1 He keeps like a 2 lander and I Waste/Port him out.
G2 See G1.
5-2
12-7
I'm 5-2 at this point, feeling really good about the next two rounds because I really only need to win 1 to finish in the money. But it's been a long day, and I haven't played 9 straight hours of Magic since High School, so I'm starting to fade. I'm using an All-Natural Organic deodorant that I've never used before today (my girlfriend insists will keep me from getting cancer) and it plain old sucks. I smell. Bad. I can smell myself whenever I lift my arms slightly and I'm pissed that I've become one of those stinky Magic players. Then all of a sudden I start getting a foot cramp. This is not something that happens to me, so it's bizarre. A muscle cramp or spasm is causing my second toe (the dude next to the big guy) to curl down independently of the other 4 toes on my foot. It's not exactly painful but it's very distracting. I made sure to get some water before round 8, but I doubt that was the problem given as I'd been drinking water all day.
I think what I'm saying is that I was starting to fade.

R8 - Miracle Control
On the Draw
G1 He has T1 Top. I overextend into a Terminus and can't get rolling again. L
G2 I mull to 4. It wasn't that I was mulling to hate or anything. I just had to mull 3 entirely slow, unplayable hands.
5-3
12-9
I admit, this round crushed my spirits. Not only have I never played against Miracle Control with goblins before, also having to mull to 4 G2 was a swift kick in the ass. My dreams of finishing in the top 32 and netting $50 was gone. At this point I could only break even.

R9 - Maverick
On the Draw
G1 I'm kinda mana screwed. i have a hand full of 3drops but he's been Wasting my Caverns and Ports. He also gets like 3 Moms in play, then starts hitting me with a 10/10 KoTR. L
G2 I side out my Tuktuk Scrapper because I'm an idiot. He plays T2 Jitte and runs the board.
5-4
12-11

I punted right out of the money R9. What a waste. But in writing this report I realized something that totally escaped me during the tournament: I never played first. I lost every single dice roll. And before deteriorating in the last 2 rounds I had gone 5-2. Not too shabby.

What I would do differently:
- I wouldn't try a new deodorant for a high stress, 11 hour tournament.
- I'd try to stay more focused for the last two rounds. It's weird, but those are always the most important rounds of your tournament. They dictate whether you'll be in the money or not, and they're Must Win.
- I wouldn't side out Tuktuk against Maverick.
- I'd find room in the deck for a Prospector. With Krenko and Sharpshooter he provides and out to the Dueling Grounds scenario in R5.
- Anarchy would have been decent.
- Blue splash was entirely irrelevant. Never cast a single blue spell even though I sided multiples in.
- I'd win at least 1 dice roll. The odds of losing every dice roll in a 9 round tourny = 1/512. Lucky me.

What worked:
- Krenko Krenko Krenko
- 2 Ports
- 3 MWM

Observations-
-Goblins just wants a Shatter-on-a-Stick Goblin. That is all. Tuktuk is horrible against Top (relevant R8) and is bad enough in general that it gets too tempting to side him out (R9). Tinkerer is good against Top but terrible against Equipment. Tin-Street hooligan is awful with Warchief and G splash just isn't where we need to be now. WotC, just print an RR Shatter-on-a-Stick Goblin already. Geez.
- Goblins has some incredibly powerful synergies (Warchief/Sharpshooter/Krenko) but these synergies have really high casting costs which basically means we can't rely on them. We need to rely on the 2cc and less cards. This basically means that, even though we'd really like to run fewer of them to make room for more powerful effects, MWM and Piledriver are still essential.
- Anarchy would have been an amazing SB card this tourney. Aside from devastating Maverick it's also pretty good at sweeping Angel Tokens. Miracle Control doesn't actually run that many counters, so it's a real possibility.

Cards I'm considering playing around with:
-Cabal Therapy (4 MWM MD, 4 CT SB)
- Anarchy
- Pithing Needle

That's all for now. I was pretty disappointed in going 5-4, but after realizing that I was on the draw each and every round, 5-4 doesn't seem all that bad. Still, punting out R9 was very silly of me.

[GoboLord]

Thx for your report, Jon it was a good read as always.
For now I have to say 2 things:

(1)
Thank you, thank you, thank you for your words on artifact hate. People, please believe us when are saying that Tuktuk is horrible. Pithing Needle is absolutely the right way to go.

(2)
The scenario that Anarchy catches Miracle's Angels is just not going to happen. When I playtested the MU I dound out that they will usually (i.e. in 9 out of 10 cases) spawn enough Angels at your End of Turn to alpha-strike you on their next Combat Step. However, Anarchy can catch Maverick off guard and is nice a gainst a bunch of random-decks (like Enchantress, Thopters and White-Chalice-Aggro aka. Staxx).

[BigBopper]

@jrw1985: Thanks a lot for the detailed report. I love your list (maybe because it looks pretty similar to mine right now). Cool how you won that Omni-tell MU! And about mulling-sometimes you just draw bad hands...on the other hand you usually win, when your opponent has to mull as well.

The only thing I can't agree with is what you said about the green splash. I also see the problems with TSH, especially since he can only be cast with sorcery speed and not vialed in (well he can, but that´s not the point, right?). My argument for a green splash is Krosan Grip. This is able to answer all artifacts and equipments we face AND entchantments, like omniscience or dueling grounds. Not to mention it being uncounterable.

I could see the goblin-king in your SB change for a Anarchy, the gilded drake into a stinger and the 3 Pierce into 3 Grips. One more not so unimportant argument for green splash is that it was the last to win a SCG tournament.

[Annatar]

Cudoes for the report jrw1985! Shame it didn't end so well.

I would only ever consider splashing green again (been on the mono red wagon for a few months and I haven't looked back since) it would be for the enchantment hate and little else. Dueling Grounds in particular is very nasty, even if you can sometimes crawl out from under it.

Shatter goblin would be sweet even at 3 mana but I think we will have to wait for the next core set or something similar before they get it out there.

[magicmerl]

Wow.. and he even made it 4th.



I just rewatched both matches. Thalia did nothing but to attack. In six games. Although I know that she should have done better against Know & Tell, I would rather side in Thorn of Amethyst and add three goblins to the main deck.
The know and tell guy had the kill in his hand G1. Thalia and Port won that game a more conventional goblins build would not have.

@jrw1985: Thanks for the match writeup. Some thoughts:

1. In round 2 vs Know-tell, did you keenly feel the need for Pyroblast? Going forward are you going to make space in your SB for it?

[ScatmanX]

omg. Saw 2 games so far played by Kenny Dungar. I want to cry. Should I continue watching it?
Edit: yeah, someone should have stopped me...

[namrufmot]

I only saw the one when he played Show and Tell...where are the others?

[magicmerl]

I only saw the one when he played Show and Tell...where are the others?
Both matches are in the same stream I linked to above.

[Barbed Blightning]

Hey all,

Been somewhat of a lurker here, but I'm piloting Gobs for the first time this Saturday at the Northeast Legacy Championship (NELC) in upstate New York. I've been a committed Death& Taxes pilot for about a year now, but I'm looking for a bit of a vacation with another perennial mono-colored vial deck.

This is my list (welcome to criticism):

12 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Rishadan Port


4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Æther Vial

3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter


Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre


I've been trying to keep up with recent posts/developments, so I'll keep the noobish questions to a minimum:

Is Pithing Needle considered the go-to artifact hate currently, and if so, why is TukTuk bad?

In terms of yard hate, is surgical any good? I've noticed comments (specifically in relation to the Dungar match v. Know&Tell) that Surgical is bad. If so why, or why not?

Finally, what is typically the plan for combo matchups--such as Storm, Belcher or even Show&Tell decks? Are chalices relevant in these matches, and what other matches are they used for?

Thanks!

[Matt]

I loathe Chalice with all of my being...

- A dedicated storm player

[that0neguy]

I don't know why people criticize the inclusion of Surgical against the Rector Show and tell deck.

Surgical stops the Rector from triggering and finding an enchantment. And if they go for intuition or you REB a show and tell, you can grab those too.

I think the commentators were so focused on how weak the extractions are against the previous match up, that they failed to realize how good they actually are against rector.

That being said, I wonder if Surgical isn't a bit too narrow. It can sometimes steal games, but in many match ups or situations it can be dead.

[LPEuler]

Hey all,

Been somewhat of a lurker here, but I'm piloting Gobs for the first time this Saturday at the Northeast Legacy Championship (NELC) in upstate New York. I've been a committed Death& Taxes pilot for about a year now, but I'm looking for a bit of a vacation with another perennial mono-colored vial deck.

This is my list (welcome to criticism):

12 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Rishadan Port


4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Æther Vial

3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Stingscourger
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter


Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre


I run the same MD as you but
- 1 Mountain.
- 1 Stingscourger.
- 1 Incinerator.
+ 1 Krenko.
+ 1 Chieftain.
+ 1 TukTuk.

I think you should include one MD Artifact Hate, TukTuk or Tinkerer. Tinkerer is cheaper but can be killed before it works (unless you have a haste lord on). Tuktuk is more expensive but instant, you can drop it by vial surprising the attacker with his equipment and it also deals 1 damage.

They are not amazing but they are not as bad. I would include 1 MD and 1 SB.

[jrw1985]

I don't know why people criticize the inclusion of Surgical against the Rector Show and tell deck.

Surgical stops the Rector from triggering and finding an enchantment. And if they go for intuition or you REB a show and tell, you can grab those too.

I think the commentators were so focused on how weak the extractions are against the previous match up, that they failed to realize how good they actually are against rector.

That being said, I wonder if Surgical isn't a bit too narrow. It can sometimes steal games, but in many match ups or situations it can be dead.

Ah, yes! I hadn't noticed that before. i was under the impression that the Rector's ability was triggered upon her going to the graveyard and that removing her and fetching an Enchantment were part of the resolution of the same ability. I didn't realize the fetch was contingent upon you her controler resolving the trigger and removing her from the game. So, yes, Surgical is actually a great card Rector Tell because they can't remove Rector to fetch Omniscience if you Surgical Rector first.

Thanks for the tip.

[GoboLord]

Ah, yes! I hadn't noticed that before. i was under the impression that the Rector's ability was triggered upon her going to the graveyard and that removing her and fetching an Enchantment were part of the resolution of the same ability. I didn't realize the fetch was contingent upon you her controler resolving the trigger and removing her from the game. So, yes, Surgical is actually a great card Rector Tell because they can't remove Rector to fetch Omniscience if you Surgical Rector first.

Thanks for the tip.

I'm not sure if that works, but Surgical Extraction DOES take away Cabal Therapy, which is their only way (apart from Pernicious Deed) the get the Rector buried.

[Chatto]

If i'm not mistaking: as soon as Rector hits the graveyard, it can be removed from THE game. The player controlling Rector would have priority. Extraction would be to slow, right?

[ScatmanX]

Rector has a triggered ability. That means both players have a chance to respond to it. Any card that remove him from the graveyard before the trigger resolves will fizzle it's effect.

Apart from Intuition, I've seen lists running Lim Dul's Vault too, so Surgical is quite nice.
Those commentators no nothing about goblins, or for what it's worth, legacy.

@chatto: Yes, the Rector controller will get priority first it Rector dies on his turn. Still, for the trigger to resolve, both players have to be giver priority. When he passes it to you, you can do your stuff.

[that0neguy]

academy rector

When rector goes to the graveyard, it triggers, you respond to the trigger to remove her from the game (Even Crypt/Relic works as well).

Then the trigger says, if you remove her, then search. Since you can't remove her when the trigger resolves, you can't search.

Granted, I am not entirely sure that Kenny knew about the trick either, because he surgicaled the therapies, but I can't remember how many cards were in the show players hand (maybe he thought he could resolve extraction then and there, and would not have been able to do it later).

[L10]

By the way, Brad Campbell has a pretty good writeup at MtG Salvation.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=94190&page=211

[jrw1985]

I'm not sure if that works, but Surgical Extraction DOES take away Cabal Therapy, which is their only way (apart from Pernicious Deed) the get the Rector buried.

It works. Rector dies and its graveyard trigger goes on the stack. Trigger says when Rector dies they MAY remove it from the game. If the do, they can enchantment fetch. But if you surgical rector in response to the gy trigger they never get to remove it, and they only get to enchantment fetch if THEY were the one that removed it from the game.

[Barbed Blightning]

By the way, Brad Campbell has a pretty good writeup at MtG Salvation.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=94190&page=211

Definitely a great read. I like his point about Krenko & Chieftain. Personally, I like Chief's buff as a means to make combat easier, rather than evading E Plague. And Krenko...well, he is stupid fun. Maybe winmore, but I'm down with that. I've always wanted to do a Kiki-Jiki build as well, but that's probably pushing it.

[ScatmanX]

Definitely a great read. I like his point about Krenko & Chieftain. Personally, I like Chief's buff as a means to make combat easier, rather than evading E Plague. And Krenko...well, he is stupid fun. Maybe winmore, but I'm down with that.
I definitely don't agree on his reasoning behind not running chieftain and not running Krenko.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Brad did a great write up, my only regret is that he didn't post it here :frown:
I refuse to get an account over at MTGSAL. I know I would nerd rage over every stupid post... (Source has stupid posts too, but they are fewer and easier to ignore)

I liked the way Brad supported his card choices. I agree with the changes he would make to his sideboard. It was helpful to see how he sideboarded in his matches.
I disagree with his assessment of Krenko and Chieftain but that is his personal taste. He didn't say they were bad, just that they weren't his style.

I owe my recent success to his list and would like extend a "thank you" to Brad for his report.

[Amon Amarth]

Thanks for the link! That was an excellent report by Mr Campbell. I really like that he's advocating the 23 land build. I've always been happier with 23 lands. I'm also liking TSH these days too. I can see why he wouldn't want to play Chieftain but his logic on Krenko is just odd. I don't think it is win-more at all. Not every board state where you have goblins on the board is a good one. A token, prospector, matron board is a weak board state and adding a Krenko to it makes it a hell of a lot better. When he untaps that's at least 4 more goblin tokens before you play an goblins for the turn. I'm not sure how you couldn't leverage tons of free creatures into a win. It's not like they cant block. I wonder why he thinks Krenko is bad against Delver. That doesn't make any sense either. If you land Krenko your plan is Gempalm Delver and make infy dudes. Pretty easy way to win if they can't race you with Delver.

[pxao]

Hello all!
I've been testing the match against Omnitell and found it extremely complicated.
He simply ignore the Stingscouger mostly time and not suffer for Pithing needle / Phyrexian revoker

In the version without Thalia and Guilded Drake (monored), which proves more useful sideboard against the deck?

The mana denial strategy + REB and race against time is the only way out?

[that0neguy]

Krenko seems rediculous against the field right now. If they can't remove him immediately, or if he has haste, 3-50 free goblin tokens will take over the game very quickly, even through batterskull, opposing knights/goyfs.

Krenko grinds out the long game if you can protect him, and makes fightning from back from a losing position possible. Thats the opposite of win more.

[magicmerl]

Hello all!
I've been testing the match against Omnitell and found it extremely complicated.
Really? I would have thought that they were a fairly uninteractive deck. Which means that the match is us racing while disrupting them. Thalia just acts as another port. Lackey, REB and mana denial are the cards you want.


Krenko grinds out the long game if you can protect him, and makes fightning from back from a losing position possible. Thats the opposite of win more.
Agreed. He is the man vs green decks. How many other cards in our deck can laugh off multiple opposing tarmogoyfs?

[that0neguy]

Thalia is more than a port. It is on par with port if they cast 1 non creature per turn. If they cast 2 non creatures per turn its even better.

Also, they can not petals combo out through thalia. They need to kill thalia first.

As much as I think that pretty much every non land non vial card needs to be a goblin, I think that Thalia might have a home in goblins, at least in the board.

I played against Kenny at SCG MLPS in round 3 with RUG, and Thalia was a beating.

[magicmerl]

Thalia is more than a port. It is on par with port if they cast 1 non creature per turn. If they cast 2 non creatures per turn its even better.

Also, they can not petals combo out through thalia. They need to kill thalia first.

As much as I think that pretty much every non land non vial card needs to be a goblin, I think that Thalia might have a home in goblins, at least in the board.

I played against Kenny at SCG MLPS in round 3 with RUG, and Thalia was a beating.
Yeah, you're right. She seems like a port though because when she's out your opponent only plays one spell per turn....

[B-rad]

Hey guys. I posted this on Salvation but wanted to put it here as well as it seems to be a much more active forum! Again, happy to answer any questions or give my opinions on topics!

Hello Everyone! I have been browsing over the forums and have a few things I would like to give my opinion on about goblins and color/card choices. First, a little bit about myself!

My name is Brad Campbell and I'm 24 years old and have been playing goblins....forever. Here is a list of my accomplishments with the deck over the years:

2003: Won a JSS with Goblin Bidding in standard
2007-2008: Top 8ed 3 extended PTQs with different variations of the deck(Boblins, Bidding, Blood Moon).
2008: 2nd place 200 man side event at GP Indy(left the game a couple months later)
2012:1st Place SCG Open Indianapolis(won a standard PTQ 2 weeks later in Niles, Illinois with with Naya Ramp
2012: Top 4 Legacy Champs at Gen Con

Needless to say this has been quite the successful summer of magic for me since returning to the game in May after a 4 year hiatus. I've made many new friends and have reignited relationships with people of the past!

I'd like to give my tournament report of Gen Con and then explain some of the choices in my list and reasons for some of the exclusions. Here's the list I played!

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga

Sideboard

4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger

Obviously my list didn't change much from SCG Indy but I really felt like the main was pretty much exactly where I wanted it to be. This list is built to be competitive versus RUG and Maverick and have a fighting chance against Show and Tell decks. If I were to play in a big tourney tomorrow the MD would be the same with the SB having a few changes. The cages would turn into Surgical Extractions and I would cut the Sharpshooter for a Krosan Grip and try to find room for the 2nd one.

Card Choices:

4 Mogg War Marshal-Time and time again I have cut 1 or 2 of this guy trying other things and regretted it instantly. He is just SO GOOD vs RUG and Maverick that I want the full set of 4. If they have one of those draws where they're just vomiting large creatures against you fast he is the perfect man to buy you time until your card advantage overwhelms them. The synergy with Skirk Prospector is not to be underrated as you can do some silly things especially if you have a warchief. And don't forget he's awesome with incinerator!

1 Skirk Prospector-Please Please Please put one of these into your deck. This guy was my MVP at gen con and is capable of allowing you to do some silly things with a War Marshal or a Matron. Not to mention he denies your opponents gaining life with Batterskull or getting Jitte counters by blocking with a random dude and sacrificing it for a red mana before damage!

1 Tin Street Hooligan-I hate Tuk Tuk Scrapper. I hate Goblin Tinkerer. If I'm searching my deck for a creature that costs 4 mana you can be damn sure it's a Ringleader. I have heard a lot of people say they don't like Hooligan because it forces them into green or doesn't work well if you have a warchief in play. Honestly, I love Hooligan. I think he's just nutty since they decided to print the card Cavern of Souls. A good majority of legacy decks have a problem artifact that's hard for goblins to deal with so having a 2 mana guy with 2 power to blow it up and sometimes be uncounterable is awesome. As for "not working well with warchief" I have 2 things to say about that. 1. If you have a warchief and it's not getting blown up then you should be way ahead with all the cheap guys you should be playing. 2. By the time a warchief would hit the table you should be able to determine if you can run him out there or if you need to set up a Hooligan for the Jitte/Batterskull. Once again, I love Hooligan and won't be taking him out any time soon.

0 Krenko, Mob Boss-I honestly don't understand all the hype about this guy. He is a win more type of creature that just doesn't accomplish what I want to when I'm playing goblins. When testing with him I always wanted to just get a Ringleader if I have a vial on 4 and take over the game via card advantage. Making a few 1/1s as opposed to fact or fictioning for a couple higher quality creatures is a no brainer for me as I want the Goblins that actually do something. Not to mention he is quite terrible vs RUG Delver and as I said earlier that's the match I want to be solid against.

0 Goblin Cieftan-I get it. He is the anti Engineered Plague and can win you games if you have a bunch of guys out or are trying to race combo. Again, this is not the type of style I want to be playing with gobbos. I want to stay in the game and out gas my opponent until they fall over.

I'm not saying either of those guys are bad includes in a goblin deck. They could very well be awesome and lead you to success time and time again. I'm just giving my opinion of what I want to do when I'm playing goblins and neither of them fall into that category.

23 Lands-I see so many lists running 18-20 lands and wonder to myself how they have any success at all with such a low land count. I would much rather keep land heavy hands than land light ones. All it takes is one matron into ringleader and all the flood doesn't matter at all and can actually be a boon with all the wastelands running around. Not to mention that with 4 wastes and 4 ports you really never lack anything to do with your mana. Moral of the story: PLAY MORE LANDS

Gen Con Legacy Champs Tournament report:

Woke up late of course and pulled the standard B rad register 3 minutes before a tournament starts routine. 360 players showed up and after the first of several Pastimes delays(seriously it was at least a half hour between every round) we were ready to turn some dudes sideways!

Round 1 Show and Tell Omniscience

Welcome to the tournament I had no idea what he was playing as all he was doing was playing islands and saying go. Just when I thought I was playing against High Tide he EoT Intuitions for 3 Show and Tells and I knew I was in trouble. I had the natural stingscourger and dropped it off S+T even though I knew he was bringing an Omni to class. A Griselbrand happened then an Emrakul happened and then a me being dead happened. Great start to the day!

+4 ReB +1 Stingscourger -3 Gempalm -1 Sharpshooter -1 Hooligan

He FoWs a couple of my early plays and casts a S+T dropping Girselbrand to my Stingscourger. He makes a mistake here as I have no guys out and hes at like 18 and snaps back the Gbrand without drawing any cards. I was very puzzled and we get to a point where I have a Lackey in play and a warchief + ringleader in hand with 4 lands. He casts another Show dropping Emrakul and I drop ringleader revealing 2 Matrons and a Lackey. I play both the Warchief and 2nd lackey and attack with 2 lackeys chief and ringleader. He decides to block the chief(mistake!) and i drop a matron off the first lackey trigger getting stingscourger and slam it on the table from the 2nd lackey trigger. He was dead soon after.

Game 3 he mulls to 6 and seems unhappy with it. I mull to 5 and keep 2 Lackey Fetch Waste Port. He leads with an Ancient Tomb that I waste immediately. He draws his card anddddddd says go! Lackey 1 gets FoW but Lackey 2 lands and I draw a million ports and eventually find a matron to seal the deal.

1-0

Round 2 Merfolk

He leads with an island and I'm thinking please please please not this matchup again. Island gets tapped for a Cursecatcher and an instant feeling of joy hits me. I stick 2 vials and Incinerate anything that matters.

+4 Reb -2 War Marshal -1 Hooligan -1 Stingscourger

I draw 3 ReBs and kill the 3 Lords that he plays. He runs out of gas and I obviously do not and crush him. This was about a 10 minute match and was not close at all. Goblins > Merfolk

2-0

Round 3 Naya Zoo

Game 1 he kills everything I play and gets a couple of very large Knights going. I draw a million warchiefs and no pieces of gas and die pretty quickly.

+3 Pyrokinesis -2 Goblin Piledriver -1 Stingscourger- I leave the Hooligan in because I'm always scared of Jitte

Game 2 I get out multiple vials and he has a rather clunky draw and I smash some face.

Game 3 was a pretty funny one. I don't have any vials and all he has is an early Lavamancer. I have warchiefs that will enable my shenanigans but I don't want to throw them away to the lavamancer. Eventually I draw the Incinerator for his Lavamancer and he promptly replaces it with a second one. He hits 3 goyfs in a row and it looks like I should be dead but all we have in our GYs turn 15 is Lands and Dudes. His army of 2/3s holds me off and he eventually gets a knight out. I play a bunch of guys but the board turns into an ugly creature log jam. We go to time and take a draw. Yup Goblins and Zoo took a draw.(Kind of neat because he eventually got 2nd place in the whole thing)

2-0-1

Round 4 Cephalid Breakfast

I am unfamiliar with this deck and especially after he leads with Scrubland into Aether Vial. He is stuck on lands and I eventually find a Hooligan for his vial and kill his SFM before he can drop an equipment.

+1 Hooligan -1 War Marshal(remember I had no idea what he was playing)

Game 2 he leads with a shuko into a Nomads and I start to figure the puzzle out. Unfortunately for him I land with a Lackey and drop a gang banger and coast to victory.

3-0-1

Round 5 U/W Miracles

This matchup is damn near impossible to lose. Just never overextend yourself to where you dont have a matron or ringleader ready to reload if he casts a Terminus. Vial and Cavern Laugh at his Counter-Top and we really don't care about Jace. This is probably Goblins best matchup along with merfolk. Game 1 goes according to plan and I have a vial and 2 Caverns. He stays alive for awhile but I never let myself run out of gas and get him dead.

+4 ReB -3 Gempalm -1 Stingscourger

Game 2 I draw about 6 lands in a row and he hits an early miracle entreat for 2 and races me. I almost win the game in what was probably the best possible draw he has against my deck.

Game 3 goes about the same as game 1. I get him tapped out on his turn somehow and drop 2 hasty Piledrivers to finish him off.

4-0-1

Round 6 RUG Delver

I love this match. It is the most fun I have playing legacy goblins as both players need to play it extremely tight and make 0 mistakes or you can just lose. Game 1 I could tell my opponent has minimal experience playing against goblins and I feel extremely confidant in this match up having played it more than any. We go back and forth looking for the small edge in the game and my experience eventually pays off and I get there.

+3 Relic -2 Piledriver -1 Hooligan

I mull to 6 game 2 and keep a Port Waste Double vial hand. I play around daze and run out my first vial which he lets resolve! EoT Ancient Grudge and I figured I had no way of winning this game as I needed a vial going to have a chance. This is where I take a HUGE gamble. he only has 1 trop and 1 volc out and hasnt played his 3rd land.I go all in on him not having a third and slam my 2nd vial. He lets it resolve(had the FoW in hand). I waste his Trop and he bricks 3 or 4 draws in a row while my vial grows and lets me play all kinds of dudes. The gamble pays off and I am on to the next round. Sometimes you gotta roll the dice!!!

5-0-1

Round 7 U/W Miracles/Stoneblade

He had kind of a neat hybrid deck between the Miracles and SFM package. These were kind of a boring couple of games as his draws were pretty atrocious and mine had caverns and vials

+2 ReB +1 Hooligan -2 War Marshall -1 Incinerator

6-0-1

Round 8 Elves

His deck does what it does Game 1 and he craps dudes all over while I sit there helpless with my 1 Piledriver. Sad day

+3 Pyrokinesis +1 Sharpshooter -1 Hooligan -2 War Marshal -1 Piledriver

All I can say is that Pyrokinesis is just the sickest card versus elves. I have just a cavern and vial out and my opponent gets all chipper thinking I'm land screwed. I wipe his board, vial a matron for sharpshooter and suddenly my opponent isn't happy any longer.

I am in kind of bad shape game 3 but my opponent doesn't have the collection of combo pieces to go off. Instead he goes all in on the beat down plan with 3-4 lands 2 nettle sentinels heritage birchlore and the Mirror Entity to grow them all. His lands are tapped so he can only add 3 mana from the druid. I EoT vial in a Lackey and untap and tank. I end up cycling gempalm on his Mirror Entity and he responds by making his team 3/3s. Now, I know that the Entity gives all his guys every creature type but I am under the assumption my opponent does not know this. I respond to the pump by vialing in a war marshal and this guy just loses his mind. He starts screaming "OF COURSE HE WOULD HAVE THE EFFING WAR MARSHAL" and I am trying to contain my laughter. Needless to say he was tilting hard and the rest of the game was just mop up duty. Oh and I never told him about the Entity. L2 be nicer sir!

7-0-1

Round 9 Lands!!!

Sitting at table 1 are the only X-0-1s left and that is me and Mr. Bobby Kovacs. He won the SCG Legacy Open in Detroit the week after I won mine in Indianapolis. We ID and I go into the top 8 as the 6 seed. Can I get a shout out to the best decks of 2005! Magic is weird some times

7-0-2

Quarterfinals Maverick

I played against my buddy Nick Becvar and honestly the games weren't pretty. He didn't have a single knight either game and it seemed like I had an answer for every card he played. The times you lose this match are when they have a large knight or 2 and are constantly hammering away at you until you crumble. He had no such draws and I won a very quick 2 games.

+3 Pyrokinesis -2 Piledriver -1 Stingscourger

Semifinals Sneak and Show

I honestly feel like I could have won this match. My hands both games were very strange but capable of getting me there if I just had 1 more card or 1 more turn. I was so close to having the hands work but they couldnt quite get there and I lost in an awkward 2 games.

+4 ReB +1 Stingscourger -3 Gempalm -1 Sharpshooter -1 Hooligan

Conclusion:

I love goblins. I feel it is an excellent choice in the current legacy metagame going forward due to the amount of "fair" decks people are playing. I am thinking about going to Hotlanta in a couple weeks to play in the SCG Invitational and if I do you can be sure I will be playing the little red men. Well, that's all I have!!! If anyone has any questions or wants more in depth reasoning on my card choices or my opinion on anything goblin related feel free to ask!

PS: Sorry this article was so long....

PPS: If you guys wanna hear my tournament report from Indianapolis I will gladly write one up. Then you can hear me talk about nearly having a heart attack/crapping my pants the last turn of the finals!!!

[Amon Amarth]

First off, grats! Good job on kicking ass. I think I can safely speak for everyone in that we would read any tournament reports you can type. Secondly, how do you feel about the viability of Goblins in a Legacy at the moment? Will you be playing it again?

[Lt. Quattro]

Hey guys. I posted this on Salvation but wanted to put it here as well as it seems to be a much more active forum! Again, happy to answer any questions or give my opinions on topics!

Hello Everyone! I have been browsing over the forums and have a few things I would like to give my opinion on about goblins and color/card choices. First, a little bit about myself!

My name is Brad Campbell and I'm 24 years old and have been playing goblins....forever. Here is a list of my accomplishments with the deck over the years:

2003: Won a JSS with Goblin Bidding in standard
2007-2008: Top 8ed 3 extended PTQs with different variations of the deck(Boblins, Bidding, Blood Moon).
2008: 2nd place 200 man side event at GP Indy(left the game a couple months later)
2012:1st Place SCG Open Indianapolis(won a standard PTQ 2 weeks later in Niles, Illinois with with Naya Ramp
2012: Top 4 Legacy Champs at Gen Con

Needless to say this has been quite the successful summer of magic for me since returning to the game in May after a 4 year hiatus. I've made many new friends and have reignited relationships with people of the past!

I'd like to give my tournament report of Gen Con and then explain some of the choices in my list and reasons for some of the exclusions. Here's the list I played!

4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander

4 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga

Sideboard

4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Stingscourger

Obviously my list didn't change much from SCG Indy but I really felt like the main was pretty much exactly where I wanted it to be. This list is built to be competitive versus RUG and Maverick and have a fighting chance against Show and Tell decks. If I were to play in a big tourney tomorrow the MD would be the same with the SB having a few changes. The cages would turn into Surgical Extractions and I would cut the Sharpshooter for a Krosan Grip and try to find room for the 2nd one.

Card Choices:

4 Mogg War Marshal-Time and time again I have cut 1 or 2 of this guy trying other things and regretted it instantly. He is just SO GOOD vs RUG and Maverick that I want the full set of 4. If they have one of those draws where they're just vomiting large creatures against you fast he is the perfect man to buy you time until your card advantage overwhelms them. The synergy with Skirk Prospector is not to be underrated as you can do some silly things especially if you have a warchief. And don't forget he's awesome with incinerator!

1 Skirk Prospector-Please Please Please put one of these into your deck. This guy was my MVP at gen con and is capable of allowing you to do some silly things with a War Marshal or a Matron. Not to mention he denies your opponents gaining life with Batterskull or getting Jitte counters by blocking with a random dude and sacrificing it for a red mana before damage!

1 Tin Street Hooligan-I hate Tuk Tuk Scrapper. I hate Goblin Tinkerer. If I'm searching my deck for a creature that costs 4 mana you can be damn sure it's a Ringleader. I have heard a lot of people say they don't like Hooligan because it forces them into green or doesn't work well if you have a warchief in play. Honestly, I love Hooligan. I think he's just nutty since they decided to print the card Cavern of Souls. A good majority of legacy decks have a problem artifact that's hard for goblins to deal with so having a 2 mana guy with 2 power to blow it up and sometimes be uncounterable is awesome. As for "not working well with warchief" I have 2 things to say about that. 1. If you have a warchief and it's not getting blown up then you should be way ahead with all the cheap guys you should be playing. 2. By the time a warchief would hit the table you should be able to determine if you can run him out there or if you need to set up a Hooligan for the Jitte/Batterskull. Once again, I love Hooligan and won't be taking him out any time soon.

0 Krenko, Mob Boss-I honestly don't understand all the hype about this guy. He is a win more type of creature that just doesn't accomplish what I want to when I'm playing goblins. When testing with him I always wanted to just get a Ringleader if I have a vial on 4 and take over the game via card advantage. Making a few 1/1s as opposed to fact or fictioning for a couple higher quality creatures is a no brainer for me as I want the Goblins that actually do something. Not to mention he is quite terrible vs RUG Delver and as I said earlier that's the match I want to be solid against.

0 Goblin Cieftan-I get it. He is the anti Engineered Plague and can win you games if you have a bunch of guys out or are trying to race combo. Again, this is not the type of style I want to be playing with gobbos. I want to stay in the game and out gas my opponent until they fall over.

I'm not saying either of those guys are bad includes in a goblin deck. They could very well be awesome and lead you to success time and time again. I'm just giving my opinion of what I want to do when I'm playing goblins and neither of them fall into that category.

23 Lands-I see so many lists running 18-20 lands and wonder to myself how they have any success at all with such a low land count. I would much rather keep land heavy hands than land light ones. All it takes is one matron into ringleader and all the flood doesn't matter at all and can actually be a boon with all the wastelands running around. Not to mention that with 4 wastes and 4 ports you really never lack anything to do with your mana. Moral of the story: PLAY MORE LANDS

Gen Con Legacy Champs Tournament report:

Woke up late of course and pulled the standard B rad register 3 minutes before a tournament starts routine. 360 players showed up and after the first of several Pastimes delays(seriously it was at least a half hour between every round) we were ready to turn some dudes sideways!

Round 1 Show and Tell Omniscience

Welcome to the tournament I had no idea what he was playing as all he was doing was playing islands and saying go. Just when I thought I was playing against High Tide he EoT Intuitions for 3 Show and Tells and I knew I was in trouble. I had the natural stingscourger and dropped it off S+T even though I knew he was bringing an Omni to class. A Griselbrand happened then an Emrakul happened and then a me being dead happened. Great start to the day!

+4 ReB +1 Stingscourger -3 Gempalm -1 Sharpshooter -1 Hooligan

He FoWs a couple of my early plays and casts a S+T dropping Girselbrand to my Stingscourger. He makes a mistake here as I have no guys out and hes at like 18 and snaps back the Gbrand without drawing any cards. I was very puzzled and we get to a point where I have a Lackey in play and a warchief + ringleader in hand with 4 lands. He casts another Show dropping Emrakul and I drop ringleader revealing 2 Matrons and a Lackey. I play both the Warchief and 2nd lackey and attack with 2 lackeys chief and ringleader. He decides to block the chief(mistake!) and i drop a matron off the first lackey trigger getting stingscourger and slam it on the table from the 2nd lackey trigger. He was dead soon after.

Game 3 he mulls to 6 and seems unhappy with it. I mull to 5 and keep 2 Lackey Fetch Waste Port. He leads with an Ancient Tomb that I waste immediately. He draws his card anddddddd says go! Lackey 1 gets FoW but Lackey 2 lands and I draw a million ports and eventually find a matron to seal the deal.

1-0

Round 2 Merfolk

He leads with an island and I'm thinking please please please not this matchup again. Island gets tapped for a Cursecatcher and an instant feeling of joy hits me. I stick 2 vials and Incinerate anything that matters.

+4 Reb -2 War Marshal -1 Hooligan -1 Stingscourger

I draw 3 ReBs and kill the 3 Lords that he plays. He runs out of gas and I obviously do not and crush him. This was about a 10 minute match and was not close at all. Goblins > Merfolk

2-0

Round 3 Naya Zoo

Game 1 he kills everything I play and gets a couple of very large Knights going. I draw a million warchiefs and no pieces of gas and die pretty quickly.

+3 Pyrokinesis -2 Goblin Piledriver -1 Stingscourger- I leave the Hooligan in because I'm always scared of Jitte

Game 2 I get out multiple vials and he has a rather clunky draw and I smash some face.

Game 3 was a pretty funny one. I don't have any vials and all he has is an early Lavamancer. I have warchiefs that will enable my shenanigans but I don't want to throw them away to the lavamancer. Eventually I draw the Incinerator for his Lavamancer and he promptly replaces it with a second one. He hits 3 goyfs in a row and it looks like I should be dead but all we have in our GYs turn 15 is Lands and Dudes. His army of 2/3s holds me off and he eventually gets a knight out. I play a bunch of guys but the board turns into an ugly creature log jam. We go to time and take a draw. Yup Goblins and Zoo took a draw.(Kind of neat because he eventually got 2nd place in the whole thing)

2-0-1

Round 4 Cephalid Breakfast

I am unfamiliar with this deck and especially after he leads with Scrubland into Aether Vial. He is stuck on lands and I eventually find a Hooligan for his vial and kill his SFM before he can drop an equipment.

+1 Hooligan -1 War Marshal(remember I had no idea what he was playing)

Game 2 he leads with a shuko into a Nomads and I start to figure the puzzle out. Unfortunately for him I land with a Lackey and drop a gang banger and coast to victory.

3-0-1

Round 5 U/W Miracles

This matchup is damn near impossible to lose. Just never overextend yourself to where you dont have a matron or ringleader ready to reload if he casts a Terminus. Vial and Cavern Laugh at his Counter-Top and we really don't care about Jace. This is probably Goblins best matchup along with merfolk. Game 1 goes according to plan and I have a vial and 2 Caverns. He stays alive for awhile but I never let myself run out of gas and get him dead.

+4 ReB -3 Gempalm -1 Stingscourger

Game 2 I draw about 6 lands in a row and he hits an early miracle entreat for 2 and races me. I almost win the game in what was probably the best possible draw he has against my deck.

Game 3 goes about the same as game 1. I get him tapped out on his turn somehow and drop 2 hasty Piledrivers to finish him off.

4-0-1

Round 6 RUG Delver

I love this match. It is the most fun I have playing legacy goblins as both players need to play it extremely tight and make 0 mistakes or you can just lose. Game 1 I could tell my opponent has minimal experience playing against goblins and I feel extremely confidant in this match up having played it more than any. We go back and forth looking for the small edge in the game and my experience eventually pays off and I get there.

+3 Relic -2 Piledriver -1 Hooligan

I mull to 6 game 2 and keep a Port Waste Double vial hand. I play around daze and run out my first vial which he lets resolve! EoT Ancient Grudge and I figured I had no way of winning this game as I needed a vial going to have a chance. This is where I take a HUGE gamble. he only has 1 trop and 1 volc out and hasnt played his 3rd land.I go all in on him not having a third and slam my 2nd vial. He lets it resolve(had the FoW in hand). I waste his Trop and he bricks 3 or 4 draws in a row while my vial grows and lets me play all kinds of dudes. The gamble pays off and I am on to the next round. Sometimes you gotta roll the dice!!!

5-0-1

Round 7 U/W Miracles/Stoneblade

He had kind of a neat hybrid deck between the Miracles and SFM package. These were kind of a boring couple of games as his draws were pretty atrocious and mine had caverns and vials

+2 ReB +1 Hooligan -2 War Marshall -1 Incinerator

6-0-1

Round 8 Elves

His deck does what it does Game 1 and he craps dudes all over while I sit there helpless with my 1 Piledriver. Sad day

+3 Pyrokinesis +1 Sharpshooter -1 Hooligan -2 War Marshal -1 Piledriver

All I can say is that Pyrokinesis is just the sickest card versus elves. I have just a cavern and vial out and my opponent gets all chipper thinking I'm land screwed. I wipe his board, vial a matron for sharpshooter and suddenly my opponent isn't happy any longer.

I am in kind of bad shape game 3 but my opponent doesn't have the collection of combo pieces to go off. Instead he goes all in on the beat down plan with 3-4 lands 2 nettle sentinels heritage birchlore and the Mirror Entity to grow them all. His lands are tapped so he can only add 3 mana from the druid. I EoT vial in a Lackey and untap and tank. I end up cycling gempalm on his Mirror Entity and he responds by making his team 3/3s. Now, I know that the Entity gives all his guys every creature type but I am under the assumption my opponent does not know this. I respond to the pump by vialing in a war marshal and this guy just loses his mind. He starts screaming "OF COURSE HE WOULD HAVE THE EFFING WAR MARSHAL" and I am trying to contain my laughter. Needless to say he was tilting hard and the rest of the game was just mop up duty. Oh and I never told him about the Entity. L2 be nicer sir!

7-0-1

Round 9 Lands!!!

Sitting at table 1 are the only X-0-1s left and that is me and Mr. Bobby Kovacs. He won the SCG Legacy Open in Detroit the week after I won mine in Indianapolis. We ID and I go into the top 8 as the 6 seed. Can I get a shout out to the best decks of 2005! Magic is weird some times

7-0-2

Quarterfinals Maverick

I played against my buddy Nick Becvar and honestly the games weren't pretty. He didn't have a single knight either game and it seemed like I had an answer for every card he played. The times you lose this match are when they have a large knight or 2 and are constantly hammering away at you until you crumble. He had no such draws and I won a very quick 2 games.

+3 Pyrokinesis -2 Piledriver -1 Stingscourger

Semifinals Sneak and Show

I honestly feel like I could have won this match. My hands both games were very strange but capable of getting me there if I just had 1 more card or 1 more turn. I was so close to having the hands work but they couldnt quite get there and I lost in an awkward 2 games.

+4 ReB +1 Stingscourger -3 Gempalm -1 Sharpshooter -1 Hooligan

Conclusion:

I love goblins. I feel it is an excellent choice in the current legacy metagame going forward due to the amount of "fair" decks people are playing. I am thinking about going to Hotlanta in a couple weeks to play in the SCG Invitational and if I do you can be sure I will be playing the little red men. Well, that's all I have!!! If anyone has any questions or wants more in depth reasoning on my card choices or my opinion on anything goblin related feel free to ask!

PS: Sorry this article was so long....

PPS: If you guys wanna hear my tournament report from Indianapolis I will gladly write one up. Then you can hear me talk about nearly having a heart attack/crapping my pants the last turn of the finals!!!

I'm always up for some goblin love.

[that0neguy]

You quoted that monster, just to post that? lol.

I really like the list, I think the only thing I disagree with is 0 Krenko.

As a RUG player, I don't know how I would possibly deal with it if it got 2 activations in, and I feel like Maverick is in a similar position.

If it doesn't get immediately bolted/Plowed it just seems like it would run away with the game very quickly.

I can see the rationale behind it though. I like to see as many 4x as possible, and like the bullets you chose, they seem to be very versitile, and I wonder if the RUG/Mav match up needs another bullet.

[raindrainxi]

Brad's tourney report.


Thanks for reposting that here, Brad. Excellent finish.

A question on the U/W Miracle matchup. How do we deal with Entreat? When playing against us, they make sure to create more than lethal for the Angels, to take account for the removals. How do we deal with this? Or is it just basically next game when that happens, and we just race them with at least 5 damage a turn? By the sound of your post, you make it sound like it an automatic win, but haven't felt that way lol. Although I am playing with a more aggressive build (Chieftain, Krenko, Winstigator)

[B-rad]

Thanks for reposting that here, Brad. Excellent finish.

A question on the U/W Miracle matchup. How do we deal with Entreat? When playing against us, they make sure to create more than lethal for the Angels, to take account for the removals. How do we deal with this? Or is it just basically next game when that happens, and we just race them with at least 5 damage a turn? By the sound of your post, you make it sound like it an automatic win, but haven't felt that way lol. Although I am playing with a more aggressive build (Chieftain, Krenko, Winstigator)

The U/W miracle match can be a little tricky if you're unfamiliar playing against the deck or don't have a good strategy vs it. First, it is VERY important to stick a vial or have a Cavern out and then everything else becomes easier. At that point you need to balance your resources between a few different things. You need to apply enough pressure so that they have to deal with your team or they die. Once you have a board presence established, make sure you sandbag a matron or ringleader in case they pop a terminus(and trust me they will). Just be patient and don't go for the big 1 turn kill if you don't have to, unless they're tapped out of course. While this is happening you need to be denying their resources with Wasteland and Rishadan Port. If they have a surplus of blue sources hit the white and vice verse.

It's basically just like walking a tightrope. Make sure your guys are uncounterable. Don't overextend and be left with no fuel after a terminus. Matron up Ringleader after Ringleader. Harass the Miracle players lands. If all goes as planned they won't really be able to miracle a large Entreat and they'll eventually die

[B-rad]

First off, grats! Good job on kicking ass. I think I can safely speak for everyone in that we would read any tournament reports you can type. Secondly, how do you feel about the viability of Goblins in a Legacy at the moment? Will you be playing it again?

I will absolutely be playing goblins again :cool: I love playing the deck and it's very well positioned in the current format(unless Omnishow becomes a thing which I don't think it will). You are 50/50 or better against RUG, Maverick, and any of the other fair creature based decks. Obviously, combo is a problem but luckily there aren't too many maniacs out there sleeving up Belcher or Storm right now.

The U/W Miracles deck seems like it was the best thing that's happened to Goblins in a long while as it keeps the unfair decks relatively in check with Counter-Top......which Goblins laugh at.

[fimo]

congrats Brad! i m glad to see good players piloting this deck while the majority of the "big names" seem to like other archetypes. Keep up the little green man beatdown!
I like most of your reasoning. The only thing I firmly disagree with you is about krenko. He wins you the game against any deck if he remains unanswered for 1 or 2 turns. This is a thing that no other card in the deck does. That is why I think he is special and deserves a spot. Even siege-gang can run out of gas in front of a couple of early tarmos or knights. Krenko instead gives you infinite blockers and beaters that will surely take over the game. However, to work at his best he needs chieftain so he does need some deckbuilding around him. I removed sharpshooter and a removal spell to find room for 2 chieftain. Now I have 6 haste lords and 2 krenko and I m really satisfied with it.

On a side note: have you tried thalia? impressions?

[B-rad]

congrats Brad! i m glad to see good players piloting this deck while the majority of the "big names" seem to like other archetypes. Keep up the little green man beatdown!
I like most of your reasoning. The only thing I firmly disagree with you is about krenko. He wins you the game against any deck if he remains unanswered for 1 or 2 turns. This is a thing that no other card in the deck does. That is why I think he is special and deserves a spot. Even siege-gang can run out of gas in front of a couple of early tarmos or knights. Krenko instead gives you infinite blockers and beaters that will surely take over the game. However, to work at his best he needs chieftain so he does need some deckbuilding around him. I removed sharpshooter and a removal spell to find room for 2 chieftain. Now I have 6 haste lords and 2 krenko and I m really satisfied with it.

On a side note: have you tried thalia? impressions?

I'm not really a big believer in Thalia. I don't really care about the matchups where she is good and will just accept the beating that's about to head my way. With the way the meta is currently I'd rather my deck be more consistent against the fair decks and don't want to make my ringleaders worse with Thalia. That's why I don't really have any storm/belcher hate in the board. Just hope to avoid the matchups she's good and try to steal a win or two against show and tell decks. If I were to try a Krenko I'd probably move the Sharpshooter to the board and put him in that slot. The machine gun has been pretty below average for me lately with elves kind of dieing off. Still would want one in my board for sure though.

[pxao]

Hello brad!
I followed their games and wanted to understand his point of view against RUG:
People try to use or recommend REB against RUG, I think this a feasible idea because you will always have far fewer counters tham they...

You had access to the REB and relic, and opted to use the relic.. Was it worth it? Why?

Against UW / blade, REB helpful? I stopped using this SB against this deck, because only using Stingscourger + tuktuk the game is easy.

--------------------------------------------------

Personally, I'm undecided about the choice between 4 Chalice of the void or 4 Thorn of Amethyst.
Both are very good against RUG, but the chalice simply WIN the game.
Miracles against UW and S & T only the thorn does effect.

Or should I just skip both and stay in REB against S&T / Miracles and use the relics against RUG?
So many slots open, but lose SBs much stronger against burn, ANT / Combos



Thanks for the help guys!

[B-rad]

I used to be on the ReB side of things(see SCG Indy finals) but the more I played against RUG the more I realized that Relic is superior. The times you lose this match is when they have a combination of Threshed Geese and Goyfs. Gem palms will be used on Delvers the majority of the time and Tarmogoys we can chump for days. Mongoose is usually what kills you so I want to be able to neutralize a third of their threats with relic. Not to mention it buys you a ton of time alongside war marshal so that you can get to your late game and eventually take over. Don't be afraid to chump block when you're at a comfortable life total because they'll try and burn you out and steal games they had no business winning!

[Ace/Homebrew]

Brad, I said it before but now that you signed up here I'll say it again:
Congratulations and thank you!

I piloted a slightly modified version of your list to a first place victory here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19931-DTB-Goblins&p=668127&viewfull=1#post668127).

+ Krenko
+ Warchief
- MWM
- Fetch Land

I played RUG 3 times and won each round against them. You definitely tuned the deck for that matchup. My only loss was to Maverick (due to bad mulligan and lack of practice against the deck). I have since gotten some practice in and found out Sharpshooter is a house against that deck.

I had not used TSH before (opting instead for Tuktuk) but am now a convert!
I enjoyed your report and all the notes you took on sideboarding/strategy.

[B-rad]

Playing in a little 20 man duel land tourney tomorrow. Moving Sharpshooter to the board and trying a Krenko main. If he's terrible like I think he is I'm coming after all of you!!!

[jrw1985]

Playing in a little 20 man duel land tourney tomorrow. Moving Sharpshooter to the board and trying a Krenko main. If he's terrible like I think he is I'm coming after all of you!!!

I don't think you'll be disappointed. Against any deck that tends to run out of removal (RUG, Mav) he'll win the game for you. And you'll find wonderful new uses too. I recently used Krenko to generate tokens in response to Tabernacle triggers, so I was making 4 tokens a turn and attacking with them thanks to the Chieftain I was paying to keep around. It was awesome! With just two lands, a Krenko and a Chieftain I managed to generate an impressive clock thru the Tabernacle. He's also helped me survive multiple annihilator triggers, and he's a great matron target when time is called and you need to throw caution to the wind to get the W.

Good luck with the duals!

[Barbed Blightning]

Hey all, just made 5th at this month's NELC (something like 70 people in attendance), including an undefeated 1st place finish in the Swiss! Prizes were duals, so I earned 4 savannahs for my entry fee.

First, the list:

Lands (22):
10 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern
4 Port

Core (21), -1 SGC

Other (17)
4 Gempalm
3 Stingscourger
3 Piledriver
2 MWM
2 Chieftain
1 Krenko
1 TukTuk
1 Sharpshooter

Sideboard:
4 Chalice
3 Pyroblast
2 Relic
2 Surgical
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 TukTuk

Brief rundown of matches:

I'm late getting there with my buddies, and end up scrambling to make my final choices for the MD. TukTuk I felt was strong enough for both side and main, and Sulfuric was added at a friend's recommendation.

Round 1: Josh with Esperblade, 2-1

Not much to report here. Game one, Cavern-Lackey gets me Warchief and a pair of piledrivers. CLG=GG

Game two he gets Batterskull and Jitte.

Game three I manage to catch him by surprise and scrap his batterskull with no way for him to save it. I show him sulfuric and, with plenty of angry little green men on the board, he scoops at 4 life.

Round 2: Bryce with BUG Delver, 2-1

Same story, different country. Cavern-Lackey again, with stingscourger to bounce away his Bob to connect into SGC.

Game two he lands removal and swings with a delver for seven turns.

Game three I take a gamble that pays off: opener of mountain, vial, piledriver and quad-waste. It pays off. Great play of the day: he fetches down to two, brings in an underground sea (his only land) and casts Brainstorm. Pyroblast…teehehe.

Round 3: Jeremiah ("like the bullfrog") with 12 Post, 2-1

Results aside, 12 post is a wicked cool deck. Just saying.

Game one is an uncountered MLG, and with no blockers, I overwhelm him.

Game two we grind for a while, but he eventually goes infinite with Emrakul-Eye of Ugin-Posts.

Game three I keep double-blast and slog through Tabernacle-Elephant Grass. The lawn gets mowed and I swing; he rotates his crops, with a glacial chasm (at 2 life), sacrifices it and attempts to S&T. Blast = <3

Round 4: Greg with Tempo RUG, 2-0

My only easy match of the day. CLG with sting backup makes his life hard when Piledriver hits. Game two I barbecue his Delver with a kinesis and bait out Stifles and counters until I nuke the yards with Relic. Suddenly, nimble mongoose isn't quite so nimble.

Round 5: Allen with Reanimator, 2-0

I have a spiderman moment and turn-1 waste his underground sea; he entombs Griselbrand. Lackey follows off a cavern, then Ringleader reveals many goblins the following turn. He eventually reanimates GB, but I scourge him away; he pays 7, sees nothing but more Griselbrands and I swing lethal.

Game two I win seeing none of the GY hate I packed. Instead, I opt for Stingscourger. Early wasteland stops him dead again, and I eventually Piledriver-Krenko FTW.
I double-ID with Hollywood and Hobler (?) Seneca, playing manaless dredge and Maverick respectively, and end up finishing first in the swiss!

TOP 8

Tom Leger with Yard Sale, 0-2
Well, crap. Tom and I are part of my local group and I saw him developing this deck the night before—Human Tribal Junk. SFM-Batterskull, SFM-Jitte, and fast beats from KotR and Bob thoroughly stomp me. To be fair, I had to mull to 5 for the first time in game one, but I still felt like I had no answers.

Still, though, 4 savannahs aren't nothing to scoff at, and I'm definitely proud of my first real tournament results with goblins! That said, notes from my experience today:

-Krenko felt somewhat dead for me. I would sometimes side him out for more relevant cards, and other times he would sit in my hand/deck with nothing to do. Idk if I'll cut him, I know he steals games, but I think there might be other options.

-By contrast, Stingscourger did work today and often out-right stole the game long enough for me to win.

-TukTuk is wonderful, but I'm begging wizard to print a 2- or 3-drop gob that shatters on ETB. We'll see in RtR I guess.

-I'm thinking about running a Tarfire simply as cheap removal. Any thoughts on what to cut?

Many thanks for the read!

[GoboLord]

First things first: Congratulations on your fnish, Barbed Lightning
---------------------------------------------------------------------



Hey fellow Warchiefs,
I attended a tournament yesterday and I want to share my experiences with you. This touzrnament was a wonderfully refreshing experience because I learned A LOT about Vial Goblins that day – you really can say that I had several Flash of Insight.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ju/40.jpg

O.k. first things first.
THE LIST
//MANA [21]
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
11 Mountain

//CORE [21]
-1 Siege-Gang Commander

//OTHERS[18]
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
2 Pyrokinesis

//SIDEBOARD
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
1 G. Sharpshooter
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pithing Needle

Round 1: Daniel with Zombardement (BRw)
In game 1 I beat him down pretty fast while he was manascrewed by a single Wasteland.

IN: 1 Shooter, 4 Leylines
OUT: I don’t know

I had a Turn-0-Leyline, which Daniel found quite unimpressive since he had Disenchant for it. I lose the game at the point when I didn’t manage to draw juicy cards.
IN: 3 Pithing Needle, 1 Krenko
OUT: 4 Leylines

“Fuck that” I thought. When I’m going first I just need to race through his army on un-blocking losers. I had an early Pithing Needle @ Carrion Feeder and at some point of the game I had to decide wether (1) to double-waste him and risking to not resolve my double-matron any time soon or (2) just trying to outrace him with 2 Matron and leaving his mana. Later I figured out that the latter plan is better for this MU. I lost because of manascrew after I double-wasted him. So, fellas, listen up: speed matters in this MU. Don’t try to screw the deck if you are taking risks by that. I have learned my lesson!

0-1

Round 2: Holger with MUD

In game 1 I take mulligan to 5, while Holger resolves Sundering Titan on Turn 2 and a Steel Hellkite on Turn 3.

IN: 1 Krenko, Mob Boss
OUT: 1 Pyrokinesis

I win game 2 because Holger has some trouble with his setup. When he resolves 2 Loadstone Golems it’s already too late, since I combo him out via Krenko next turn.

Guys, what follows now is a true story. I will tell you the story of how important it is to have some means of artifact-REMOVAL in your deck. I will also tell you the story of how my decision to kick Tuktuk Scrapper entirely, replacing it with Pithing Needle, came back at me on this match. The game was pretty slow and at some point of the game Holger had a Platinum Emperion equipped with Lightning Greaves – a situation for which I had no solution, since I didn’t have Tuktuk Scrapped. So, for some turns the chump-blocking began. At the time when I build-up a critical mass of Goblins that could actually kill the attacking Emperion (8x block) he resolved Silent Arbiter – which he immediately equipped with another Lightning Greaves. This basically meant that I would never win this match. However, I didn’t want to concede since hee wouldn’t win the match either. From this point on, things started to become ridiculous. My Infinite Ringleader-chain found me a Krenko, which spit out ~40 Tokens on the first activation. Some activations later I had enough tokens to kill all his creatures with Skirk Prospector + Siege-Gang commander. Well all his creatures except for Emperion and Arbiter, of course. The game ended when he drew a Steel Hellkite, after he shut-off my Siege Gang with Phyrexian Revoker. At this point my Krenko got me 83,200 Token cards on the field. If I had used a real Goblin-token card for each of those Goblins, the table would have been burst into pieces under the pressure of 166.4kg (or 332.8 pounds). A stack of those tokens would have created a tower that would reach the amazing height of 24.96 meters (or 81.89 feet). Well, what can I say?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wwN9HIBjXf4/TyhUaG7ZHqI/AAAAAAAAAFg/AgMtJWkTAZ8/s1600/achievement_unlocked_2-1.jpg

0-2

Round 3: Bennie (aka. k1w1) with Dredge.

I knew what he was playing so I took mulligan to 5, searching for a fast hand. I got Wasteland, Lackey, Pyrokinesis, Matron and Warchief. It doesn’t get any better that that I thought. I didn’t draw A mountain before turn 4 or 5. At that time I had stopped Benni’s slow start with a well-placed Pyrokinesis. Before I could get the party started Bennis spammed some tokens, which ate a Lackey, blasting up 3 out of 4 Bridge from below. When benni built himself up again with Dredge into 2 Nacromoebae and 2 recurring Ichorids I had another POyrokinesis trading 2 for 4 again. After that, Benni had some trouble recurring his Ichorids, since he ran out of black creatures. He still managed to win the game after about 25 minutes with only 3 cards left in his library.

IN: 4 Leylines
OUT: 3 Gempalm Incinerator, 1 Krenko

I have a very strong 6 without Leyline. However, it turned out that it wasn’t strong enough.

0-3

Round 4: Lars with Maverick

I was in a good mood, since I had some funny games so far. Unfortunately Lars didn’t have that much fun. I buried him under hordes of Goblins in Game 1

IN: 3 Pithing Needle, 1 Krenko, 1 Sharpshooter
OUT: 4 Goblin Lackey, 1 Stingscourger

Lars resolved an early Dueling Grounds, which immediately reminded me of that cruel Silent Arbiter from Round 2. However, my Sharpshooter managed to get beyond it with the help of Skirk Prospector.

1-3

Round 5: NO-SHOW

No, my opponent was not playing a hybrid version of Natural-Order-Show-and-Tell. He just didn’t show up. Luckily there was another guy with exactly the same problem, so we played against each other just for fun.

Round FUN: Christian with ANT feat. Burning Wish (UBr)

In game 1 Christian Probe’ed and fetched himself to 16 before resoving Ad Nauseam. At 3 life he managed to combo me out.

IN: 4 Chalice, 3 Pithing Needle, 1 Krenko
OUT: 4 Vial, 2 Stingscourger, 2 Pyrokinesis

I kept my 7 being Mountain, Caverns, Lackey, Skrik Prospector, Pithing Needle, Warchief and Krenko.
Turn1: Lackey, Go.
Turn2: (drew Matron) Attack and connect into Krenko. Play Needle and Prospector.
Turn3: tap Krenko for RRR out of Skirky. Play Warchief. Play Matron @ Piledriver. Sac Krenko for R play Piledriver, attack for 14.
I lose on the next turn because I named the wrong Fetchland with Pithing Needle.

1-4

Round 6: Dennis with RUG Thresh
Well, this match went pretty much like this: Dennis scooped game 1 when I “resolved” cavern of souls and he scooped game 3 in response to Aether Vial. Weird shit is weird.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONCLUSIONS
This is where things start to become interesting:

1. ARTIFACT HATE
https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/8/19/w-AwTPEnT0Oa2Hoidm1j2A2.gif
I learned that artifact REMOVAL is a must. As much as I hate Tuktuk Scrapper and Tin-Street Hooligan – we need them. For the future I won’t leave home without at least 1 piece of artifact-destruction, since Pithing Needles just don’t do the same job (this does NOT mean that they are bad – in fact they did a great job yesterday).

2. REMOVAL
Goblins are dumb. That’s what I learned from the match against Maverick. I didn’t win this match because of well-timed removal. I just won it by mass. Goblins aren’t tricky. Goblins aren’t smart. They just want to swarm for the win. For this reason it is absolutely valid to run only 5-6 spotremoval in MD. Most often situations where spot removal is good, some more meat on the board is probably better. For this reason it is absolutely necessary to run a full playset of Mogg War Marshal. Every time when I draw this guy he’s just awesome.
I know that I hereby retreat from what I’ve been advocating the last few months, but I figured out that spotremoval just aren’t good if you don’t have any mentionable amount of goblins on the board. E.g. burning a SFM in the moment when he resolves might buy you some time, but this time-walk is just thrown away if you need time to set yourself up. On top of this I figured out that in many MU you just don’t need that much removal. So it might be a good idea to shift your 6th, 7th and 8th spotremoval to the sideboard and bring them in for those few creature-centric MU.

3. INTERACTION
This is a topic that came back to me on that day several times. Early on that day, Ruffy (aka. I am the brainwasher) told me that he hated cards like Cavern of Souls, or any creature with Shroud or Hexproof. He finds it un-funny because those cards don’t allow your opponent to interact with them. Some hexproofed are just invincible (like Thrun, the last Troll) and you need to have a very specific strategy tailored towards beating those cards. Thrun can be dealt with by spamming infinite blockers. Caverns can be dealth with by running more spot/mass-removal. The list goes on.
Why am I telling you that? Because it is an important to consider when constructing our deck. Let me show you another example:
The RUG Threshold match yesterday really ate me. “How could this guy just scoop to Caverns and Vial?” Answer: Because they restricted interaction with his deck. Those two cards (or 8, if you sum them up) make a large part of his deck useless. Imagine I resolved Caverns and/or Vial and the only thing I do is spamming creatures. Really NOTHING else. No Pyroblasts. No Dismembers. No Pyrokinesis. No Chalice of the Void. Just creatures. If we are going for this route we are suddenly turning the RUG Thresh deck into an aggro deck with cheap creatures. Nothing scary about that, right?
So what did I learn here? I learned that I don’t want to give my opponents the possibilities to interact with me. I don’t want Pithing Needle against Maverick, because they can interact with it. I want Tuktuk or Tin Street Hooligan instead. They just can’t do anything about it. I don’t want Goblin Tinkerer or Tuktuk against Batterskull. I want Krosan Grip here.
I think you all get the picture…


That’s it for now. I hope you enjoyed reading my report and found the conclusion helpful. Feedback and questions are very much appreciated.

GoboLord

[namrufmot]

Are you suggesting gobbos splash green now? LIke weused to do back in the day?

[raindrainxi]

On the topic of artifact hate, I never really agreed on your philosophy before to disregard goblin-shaped artifact hate before, so this was just a reaffirmation. Although it is a good idea not to rely on it largely, and play around it until absolutely necessary.

On the subject on splashing green, I think your example of Krosan Grip vs Batterskull may not be the best, and still depends largely on the meta. Personally I don't want lifeloss from fetches, and adding non-basics obviously opens more target from wastes.

Gobolord:
How was leyline? Did it break your game that you had to choose to keep a hand with no way of implementing your chosen GY hate? I have to say that leyline of the void arguably is the best GY hate, but not best for goblins.

Brad and Gobolord:
I reviewed your advice on the UW matchup and it helped me considerably, and I have seen the error of my ways. Gone from 10% to more than 75%. Thank you.

[Barbed Blightning]

I definitely agree to the Cavern/interactivity sentiment. My RUG opponent yesterday offered me the draw (two rounds from ID-range) and I could see why. He didn't want to waste his lightning bolt on my T1 lackey; he has counters for that. Many counters in fact, whereas he only has 4 bolts in his deck.

I'm not sure about 4 MWM, but I definitely like 2-3 of them. It depends on how many GI's you're using, as well as the number of Goyfs/Knights in the meta. Personally, I think I'm going to play a 3-1 split of GI and Tarfire. My reasoning is this: beyond the benefits I'm sure everyone already knows about, the fact Tarfire costs less means that we can swarm the board even faster which, as GoboLord pointed out, is what Goblins loves to do.

Also, I'd count Stingscourger as both removal and a dude to swarm the board with. He's so good it's not even funny, esp. in how much he sets reanimator back.

EDIT: Also, and thoughts on Zo-Zu, the Punisher (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/200.html)? Seems like he could be good against Maverick/Stoneblade/Anything with fetches.

[Boots]

On Saturday I came full circle in fooling around with legacy decks, and revisted my first love Goblins. After leaving the ol’ deck for those slick and sexy figures of cards like LED and High Tide, I frankly wanted a change, and got tired of maindeck meddling mages and sideboard multiple flusterstorms, despite probably accounting for 80% of all high tides cast in Tokyo at this point, and being one of the only two storm players on a regular basis.

I ended playing the white splash after an insightful conversation with a friend, where in we established, “Hey, Thalia seems pretty good.” Over all I won the tournament, so without further ado:

4 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls

4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg Warmarshall
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Pyrokinesis

Round 1: Dredge – After a triple mulligan from him, a first turn lackey traded for Putrid Imp. The second lackey earned the scoop on turn 2. Game 2 was him discarding 2 dredgers, myself dropping a lackey. He unloaded several cards into his graveyard and decided to not therapy on his narco, after which turn saw Relic eating about 60-70% of his dredge cards. 1-0

Round 2: Maverick – Game one was a first turn lackey, him a turn 2 Fauna Shaman while on the play. I played piledriver turn 2, his turn 3 was pridemage into a pass. Two gempalms later he was too behind eliciting the scoop. Game 2 was a careful jockey game to keep him stalled on mana through ports and wastes while a vial ticked up so I could tuktuk his jitte he had stoneforged turn 2. After jitte’s death Krenko came to party for lethal. 2-0

Round 3: Canadian Threshhold with Punishing Fire D: - Game 1, double grove. Double Goyf, flip delver on fire. Game 2 was long and grindy as no matter how many wastes I threw out at him he always just drew another land. Through Gempalm and relics ground it out. Game 3, turn 1 delver turn 2 blind flip, another delver, ponder, turn 4 flip off punishing fire. 2-1

Round 4: Red Mud? – First turn lackey in SCG while he mana ramped. Beat in more, bounced a wurmcoil to win. Game 2 was over extend in pyroclasm. My bad really. Game 3 was first turn lackey, turn 2 Krenko. He tried to batterskull over fallout, leaving him dead to gempalm. 3-1
Round 5: Canadian Threshhold – Game 1 was him on a fast start knocking me to 4 until I killed delvers and established blockers for goyf and mongoose. An army later and he scooped. Game 2 was odd in the sense I was blown out by spell pierce on REB and grudge on vial. Turns out he plays 4 pierces main and has nothing to side in other than 2 grduge. Game 3 was him forcing a vial, pondering, and then dying to wasteland. 4-1

Round 6: Lands – Quick lackey into SCG, into piledriver. Game 2 was about 40 minutes as I was never fully locked out, and was working to deck him. Managed to hit Worm Harvest as his only win con with 7 cards in deck. Game 3 was turn 1 lackey, waste a maze, drop warchief. Attack, drop warchief. I beat lands, go meeeee.

Overall I was pretty happy with the deck. One thing in the end though, I am not sure if I like Thalia. It never came up. I used her to attack a couple games maybe?

[Sasan]

Hey I joined a legacy tournament on Saturday in Hannover, Germany.

We were 45 attendants. I played goblins with nearly the same list as Brad (Goblins with Green Splash Hooligan and Krosan Grip in Sideboard). I had no luck as I played two mirrors against goblins (and lost) and was rushed away against white weenie (the player draw god hands).but the deck performed well against canadian.

But the 4th place in the tournament was taken by another goblin deck and when I saw the deck list I thought: "OMG..the deck is sooo good."

but first here is the matchup analysis of the fellow goblin player:

Round Deck Win Loss Draw
1 Omnitell U 2 0 0
2 Miracle UWR 2 0 0
3 Threshold UGR (Canadian) 2 0 0
4 Dead Guy Ale 2 1 0
5 Death 'n' Taxes 2 1 0
6 Threshold UGR (Canadian) 1 2 0


this was our meta:

Deck quantity
1 Threshold UGR (Canadian) 6
2 Dead Guy Ale 3
3 Delver UR 2
4 Enchantress 2
5 Goblins 2
6 Goblins RG 2
7 Miracle UW 2
8 Miracle UWR 2
9 ANT 1
10 Bant 1
11 Belcher (1 Land) 1
12 Death 'n' Taxes 1
13 Dredge 1
14 Dredge (LED) 1
15 Elves G 1
16 Goblin Bombardement BR 1
17 Goblins RB 1
18 Goblins RW 1
19 Infect UG 1
20 Junk 1
21 Landstill UW 1
22 Maverick GW 1
23 Merfolk 1
24 Merfolk UB 1
25 Omnitell U 1
26 Omnitell UG 1
27 Omnitell UWBG 1
28 Soldiers of the Chalice 1
29 Spiral Tide 1
30 Stoneblade UW Tempo 1
31 Stoneblade UWR 1
32 Thopter Combo UWR 1


and now...I want to present you the killer list and my thoughts on it:

4th
Philipp John
Mars Attacks!

4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Tarfire
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Auntie's Hovel
9 Mountain
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
2 Pyrokinesis

SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Siege-Gang Commander
SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 3 Earwig Squad
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt


- With the black splash we have auntie. the card is great. first your graveyard becomes your second library. U can cast tarfire and incinerator every round. the removal of a red card for pyrokinesis makes more sense with auntie as the removed card will likely not be lost. imagine a siege gang broght bake for a second time after u attacked with it and let it get killed intentionally :D
-but the killer card is the sideboard inclusion of earwing squad: the card is killer against show and tell, against all combo decks AND you have a good chance to win against our most terrible matchup: Blade Control - just remove all equipments. goblins were always weak against combo but with this deck it could change.
-as goblins have a good matchup against miracles and canadian and now can beat combo decks and blade...I think goblins are tier one.

Changes I would make to the list:
-the manabase is bad, really bad. there are no fetchlands and 4 auntie hovel might not get you your needed black mana. I would include 6 fetch lands , 3 Rishadan ports, 4 Wastelands, 1 Badlands, 4 Caverns, 3 Mountain. That would be an ideal mana base.
-pyrokinsesis belongs to the sideboard. with the free space we need two mogg war marshals as the deck has not many tow mana outs. I would also cut one tarfire for artifact hate (tuktuk or tinker..not sure).
-Chalice is not a good card in the current meta..Red Elemental Blast is moe flexible.
-relic is a better graveyard hate card than ravenous trap.

my decklist would be:
-4 aether vial
-4 lackey
-2 tarfire
-2 goblin pile driver
-2 mogg war marshal
-1 stingscourger
-2 gempalm incinerator
-3 goblin chieftain
-4 goblin matron
-1 goblin sharpshooter
-4 goblin warchief
-4 ringleader
-1 Krenko
- 1 tuktuk
-1 wort, boggart auntie
-3 siege gang commander
-4 Arid Mesa
-1 Badlands
-4 Cavern
-3 Mountain
-3 Rishadan Port
-2 Scalding Tarn
-4 Wasteland


Sideboard:
-1 Surgical Extraction
-1 tuktuk
-4 Red Elemental Blast
-3 Relic of Progenitus
-3 Earwing Squad
-3 Pyrokinesis
-4 Red Elemental Blast.

My sideboard plan could be:
Omni Tell:- 2 war-1 tarf-2 gemp-1 Sharp -1 tuk+4 ReB+3 squad
Merfolk:- 2 War-1 tuk -1 Sting -3 lackey+ 4 ReB + 3 Pyro
Zoo: -2 Piledriver - 1 *Stingscourer+ 3 *Pyrokinesis
Miracles:- 2 Gempalm- 1 Sting - 1 tarf +4 ReB
Canadian T:-2 Pile-1 Sharp-1 tuk -1 Siege-1 Chief+3 Relic+3 Squad
Elves: -1Tuk - 2 War Marsh + 3 Pyro
Blade:-1 Sting-2 War-1 Gemp-1 Sharp-1 Gang -1 Chief+3 Reb+1 Tuk+3 squad
Reani:+3 Squad + 3 Relic-1 Tuk -1 Gem- 2 Pile-1 War- 1 Tar
Dredge: same as Reani
Maverick:+1 tuk+3 Pyro+ 3 squad-4 Lackey-1 Sting-1 Chief- 1 Gang



what do you think? Is the black splash needed to make goblins better? My answer is obvious.

[B-rad]

Hey I joined a legacy tournament on Saturday in Hannover, Germany.

We were 45 attendants. I played goblins with nearly the same list as Brad (Goblins with Green Splash Hooligan and Krosan Grip in Sideboard). I had no luck as I played two mirrors against goblins (and lost) and was rushed away against white weenie (the player draw god hands).but the deck performed well against canadian.

But the 4th place in the tournament was taken by another goblin deck and when I saw the deck list I thought: "OMG..the deck is sooo good."

but first here is the matchup analysis of the fellow goblin player:

Round Deck Win Loss Draw
1 Omnitell U 2 0 0
2 Miracle UWR 2 0 0
3 Threshold UGR (Canadian) 2 0 0
4 Dead Guy Ale 2 1 0
5 Death 'n' Taxes 2 1 0
6 Threshold UGR (Canadian) 1 2 0

this was our meta:

Deck quantity
1 Threshold UGR (Canadian) 6
2 Dead Guy Ale 3
3 Delver UR 2
4 Enchantress 2
5 Goblins 2
6 Goblins RG 2
7 Miracle UW 2
8 Miracle UWR 2
9 ANT 1
10 Bant 1
11 Belcher (1 Land) 1
12 Death 'n' Taxes 1
13 Dredge 1
14 Dredge (LED) 1
15 Elves G 1
16 Goblin Bombardement BR 1
17 Goblins RB 1
18 Goblins RW 1
19 Infect UG 1
20 Junk 1
21 Landstill UW 1
22 Maverick GW 1
23 Merfolk 1
24 Merfolk UB 1
25 Omnitell U 1
26 Omnitell UG 1
27 Omnitell UWBG 1
28 Soldiers of the Chalice 1
29 Spiral Tide 1
30 Stoneblade UW Tempo 1
31 Stoneblade UWR 1
32 Thopter Combo UWR 1

and now...I want to present you the killer list and my thoughts on it:

4th
Philipp John
Mars Attacks!

4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Tarfire
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Auntie's Hovel
9 Mountain
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
2 Pyrokinesis

SB: 2 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Siege-Gang Commander
SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 3 Earwig Squad
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt

- With the black splash we have auntie. the card is great. first your graveyard becomes your second library. U can cast tarfire and incinerator every round. the removal of a red card for pyrokinesis makes more sense with auntie as the removed card will likely not be lost. imagine a siege gang broght bake for a second time after u attacked with it and let it get killed intentionally :D
-but the killer card is the sideboard inclusion of earwing squad: the card is killer against show and tell, against all combo decks AND you have a good chance to win against our most terrible matchup: Blade Control - just remove all equipments. goblins were always weak against combo but with this deck it could change.
-as goblins have a good matchup against miracles and canadian and now can beat combo decks and blade...I think goblins are tier one.

Changes I would make to the list:
-the manabase is bad, really bad. there are no fetchlands and 4 auntie hovel might not get you your needed black mana. I would include 6 fetch lands , 3 Rishadan ports, 4 Wastelands, 1 Badlands, 4 Caverns, 3 Mountain. That would be an ideal mana base.
-pyrokinsesis belongs to the sideboard. with the free space we need two mogg war marshals as the deck has not many tow mana outs. I would also cut one tarfire for artifact hate (tuktuk or tinker..not sure).
-Chalice is not a good card in the current meta..Red Elemental Blast is moe flexible.
-relic is a better graveyard hate card than ravenous trap.

my decklist would be:
-4 aether vial
-4 lackey
-2 tarfire
-2 goblin pile driver
-2 mogg war marshal
-1 stingscourger
-2 gempalm incinerator
-3 goblin chieftain
-4 goblin matron
-1 goblin sharpshooter
-4 goblin warchief
-4 ringleader
-1 Krenko
- 1 tuktuk
-1 wort, boggart auntie
-3 siege gang commander
-4 Arid Mesa
-1 Badlands
-4 Cavern
-3 Mountain
-3 Rishadan Port
-2 Scalding Tarn
-4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
-1 Surgical Extraction
-1 tuktuk
-4 Red Elemental Blast
-3 Relic of Progenitus
-3 Earwing Squad
-3 Pyrokinesis
-4 Red Elemental Blast.

what do you think? Is the black splash needed to make goblins better? My answer is obvious.

I'm not really a fan of the black splash and this list in general. Wort seems terrible and extremely slow. I want my curve to be as low and as tight as possible with the way the current meta is set up. As you all know I'm a fan of the green splash for Hooligan as the card is just bonkers vs Stoneblade which you say you have problems with. With 1 main and 1 in the board that matchup isn't really that difficult assuming you can draw a cavern. I don't know though the list just seems slow and inconsistent. As of now I'm still on the light green splash train as I just think Tin Steeet Hookigan is that good

[Sasan]

Great answer brad :) your deck list has a great influence on me as I am thinking the same as you in most cases. I have not tested the black splash and I think that boggart is perhaps slow but the earwing squad is too good to ignore or? Perhaps one can include 3 earnings and 1 badlands in sideboard and board them in for the taiga and hooligan against combo decks (show and tell is terrible matchup for goblins) and let brads list otherwise unchanged. What do u think brad?


Also I must note that Krosan Grip is not as good as you assumed Brad, as I always found Hooligan better on my tournament. There are not many good enchantments in the current meta (only omniscience)..so hooligan is sufficient enough :)

Sorry for the typos, I'm on iPad :)

[Final Fortune]

Gobolord:
How was leyline? Did it break your game that you had to choose to keep a hand with no way of implementing your chosen GY hate? I have to say that leyline of the void arguably is the best GY hate, but not best for goblins.

.

Depends on what you're facing, you'll lose the match vs Dredge if you play Tormod's Crypt or Grafdigger's Cage and Faerie Macabre is the best disruption vs Reanimator you can ask for, but if you're looking for the best disruption card between Dredge and Reanimator then it's probably Surgical Extraction and if you're looking for the best disruption card for Dredge then it's Leyline of the Void, and I'm not certain Leyline of the Void is that much worse vs Reanimator than Surgical Extraction is honestly. I mean Surgical Extraction is better than Leyline of the Void vs. stuff like Snapcaster Mage or Life from the Loam, but I don't think you really need to board vs Snapcaster Mage and Life from the Loam is absent from the metagame.

I can definitely tell you from a Dredge/Reanimator perspective there is nothing we hate more on this earth than Leyline of the Void.

[pxao]

The Earwig Squad is always quoted and rarely gets space on deck.

There's a guy in the daily event that often plays with a list of very strange and exceptional goblins. Generally he has average results, but yesterday had a 4-0.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/4310574

I just can not imagine how it uses the SB, which take the MD and against what :eek:
What do you think?

[troopatroop]

The problem I'm having with my goblins list, in crafting it, is that everyone disagrees so wildly on several numbers of card choices. With Goblins, it's almost so redundant, that a wide assortment of creature combinations can win you the game. Because of that, it's extremely hard to build the perfect list.

1-2 Siege Gang
0-2 Krenko
0-3 Chieftain
2-4 Piledriver
2-4 War Marshall (I like 3x)
X Stingscourger
0-1 Tuk Tuk
x Tarfire
3-4 Incinerator
3-4 Warchief

It just seems like these numbers vary alot. Personally, I really want 1 Siege Gang, 1 Krenko, 3 MWM, 4 Piledriver, 2 Chieftain and 3 Warchief, but I don't think I've seen a single list with that configuration. Also, I think that Krenko and Chieftain are insane in tandem, and will win you games against the current field. Saying that it's win-more is simply incorrect. Does anyone get what I'm saying? Goblins is perhaps the hardest deck to build and play perfectly in Legacy.