[Primer] R/G Lands

[Dice_Box]

Bummer.

Hate that match-up.

[Chatto]

Aaaah too late to watch, I will take a look later this week.

Played a small tournament today. There were 20 people. The list:

RGCL

Spells (16)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble

Other Spells (10)
2 Manabond
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond

Lands (34)
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Taiga
3 Maze of Ith
3 Dark Depths
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

Sideboard (15)
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Choke
3 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip

The rounds:

R1 Jamie (12th at GP Lille) with ANT, 1-2 L

Not much to say. Jamie told me he kept a good hand when facing Burn or Goblins, for we know eachother for some time now, and I have played against him with those two decks. Imagine his surprise :smile: Against all odds I win the first game. In game two and three he shows he knows how to play ANT. I made big error by not siding in Bog, and unfortunately did not see any hate. I did draw a 3Sphere, which he took with Duress.

R2 Tim with 4c Delver. 1-2 L.

Here's a interesting scenario: he has two Delvers, Shaman, some cantrips, and instants/ sorceries in the GY. I have the combo assembled, together with some lands: Waste, Taiga among others. I'm on eight, he has to kill me or will face Marit Lage. He goes all in, I make a token, he plays Submerge... Too eager, not paying attention cost me the game.

R3 Jordy with Shardless Bug, 2-1(?) W

Not much to say, other than playing thight was what won me the game. It was rather amusing giving him 10+ life with Grove.

R4 Balthasar with DnT, 1-0-1 W

Game one ends rather quickly, game two goes on and on: he has RiP in play, so I decide to slow-roll this one. He manage to get me to six, I make a Witch, he plows, aaaaand we start all over again. I do manage to get RiP off the board, play Tabernacle, two Maze, and Port to keep his mana/ creatures in check. He slowly eats my lifetotal away. We go to time, I make a Witch, he plows again. Aaaaand back to square one, and 26 life. I'm able to assemble the combo, but as we are already out of time, it's a draw.

Balthasar played the new taxing pony Vryn Wingmare, which is a pretty annoying card. Still, having acces to a lot of mana, and him not drawing Port or Waste made me not worry to much. But it should be dealt with right away.

R5 Niek with Shardless Bug, 2-0 W

Game one brings me Manabond, LftL, and Wasteland. Needless to say he never got to keep lands, and he concedes rather quickly. Not knowing what he is playing ( I only saw Bayou, and U-Sea, so had a hunch) I only board some K-Grips. Game two takes a bit longer. I play it safe, not knowing what he's up to. I manage to safely keep LftL running (having Thicket as an emergency-brake), despite the fact of a Shaman online. He then procedes to build up pressure through creatures and Waste. I manage to waste one Waste. I then Loam back a DD, play it to bait a second Waste later in the game, which he quickly removes from the game with Shaman. Unknown to Niek at that point, I already had a second DD in hand. Just when he thinks he has the game, I play DD, and at the end of his turn...

So... 3-2, good enough for 7th place. Unfortunately, there's only a T4. Still, felt good to play the deck, and while I'm not there yet the deck starts to feel more familiar.

[barcode]

I was very surprised to see David Long's sideboard choices on SCG coverage for his Temur Delver match. I always cut my Crop Rotations because Delver plays so much countermagic that having Rotation countered sets you so far behind (and it's probably unrecoverable).

Do other people leave Crop Rotation in their deck in that matchup? My sideboard plan is:

-3 Crop Rotation
-1 Manabond (I only play 1)

+2 Chalice of the Void
+1 Choke
+1 Trinisphere

If I suspect equipment or a Relic of Progenitus or Sulfuric Vortex that I have to deal with I cut Glacial Chasm for a K-Grip.

[Chatto]

I was very surprised to see David Long's sideboard choices on SCG coverage for his Temur Delver match. I always cut my Crop Rotations because Delver plays so much countermagic that having Rotation countered sets you so far behind (and it's probably unrecoverable).

Do other people leave Crop Rotation in their deck in that matchup? My sideboard plan is:

-3 Crop Rotation
-1 Manabond (I only play 1)

+2 Chalice of the Void
+1 Choke
+1 Trinisphere

If I suspect equipment or a Relic of Progenitus or Sulfuric Vortex that I have to deal with I cut Glacial Chasm for a K-Grip.


I always keep CR in. Yesterday I only boarded +2 Choke, -2 Manabond. Sometimes I will take out -2 Tranquil Thicket, and -1 Karakas for +3 K-Grip.

I really never considered taking CR out.

EDIT: thinking about it, I have no idea what Timur Delver is, hahaha. I was reffering to 4c Delver.

[Crimhead]

I always cut my Crop Rotations because Delver plays so much countermagic that having Rotation countered sets you so far behind (and it's probably unrecoverable).

Do other people leave Crop Rotation in their deck in that matchup? My sideboard plan is:


Most of Delver's counter-magic is the soft, taxing sort which we can play around. When they have no lands at all they can only play force (and we can almost always recover against a landless Delver opponent). They can't even cast Force without land when there is a Sphere up!

I think I've only lost one match to Thresh, and I screwed it up. You can probably board however you want (within reason).

[UnsungHero]

Lands just rocked Grixis Delver 2-0 on camera in some rather quick games. I believe lands may be in the t8 of SCGDC.

[barcode]

Lands just rocked Grixis Delver 2-0 on camera in some rather quick games. I believe lands may be in the t8 of SCGDC.

Damn! I was hoping it would slide under the radar before Champs!

[Sibelius]

Good afternoon,

Both Daryl Ayers and David Long had Molten Vortex in their sideboards. Do we have any data on how those cards performed? I'm assuming they were testing a replacement for Seismic Assault in the Bloodmoon matchups, with the upside of it being an easier to cast removal spell when we need a fifth Pfire.

They were also both playing a 4th Dark Depths rather than what I have come to think of as the standard three. Is this because we need to increase the chance of naturally drawing the combo vs miracles going long and having a combo opener vs fast combo game 1 ? I like a Boseiju out of the side to accompany the Chokes if I am very worried about Miracles.

Is four fetchlands now the norm? Even with 3 I have found I often get to the point very early where I have nothing to fetch for. (as did David when he cracked his fetch with the Taigas in the grave and the forest on the board. He looked so sad I wanted to give him a hug through the screen :frown: ) I understand they are there to ensure Green on turn one. But is the chance of mulligan increased so much by swapping that 4th fetch for a useful mana producer or utility land like Ghost quarter or even Horizon canopy (if we want to maintain green count) ?

Sphere of resistance seems to have left the sideboard as well. I agree totally with 4 trinisphere. It is a beating against omni and amazing if we get the time to land it vs storm. I am also aware of the slight nonbo with Sphere and Trinisphere.

Cheers in advance for some hopefully good discussion.

[barcode]

I can't fathom playing fewer than three Tiagas. Watching one Ayers trying to Punishing Fire down creatures and lacking red sources was a sad thing indeed.

I saw the Molten Vortex in action on camera and it wasn't impressive, it could have been a factor of his Loams being extracted or just getting overwhelmed by tokens. Overall I wasn't super impressed by the showering. It gets under countermagic more easily than Seismic Assault but I don't think Seismic Assault or Molten Vortex would have been good in that game.

[Whitefaces]

Does anyone know what happened in the T8 match vs Shaheen? Why did Daryl scoop?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I can't fathom playing fewer than three Tiagas. Watching one Ayers trying to Punishing Fire down creatures and lacking red sources was a sad thing indeed.

I saw the Molten Vortex in action on camera and it wasn't impressive, it could have been a factor of his Loams being extracted or just getting overwhelmed by tokens. Overall I wasn't super impressed by the showering. It gets under countermagic more easily than Seismic Assault but I don't think Seismic Assault or Molten Vortex would have been good in that game.I've been on three taigas for a long time now and I haven't ever wanted to go back. It makes closing out games with punishing fire a bit more realistic as well as preventing feel bad moments like David Long had when he tried to fetch with his forest in play and both taigas in the bin. I think the third taiga is way better than the fourth fetch and would like to hear some opposing view points since it's not even close for me personally.

[Chatto]

Now I'm curious: what does your manabase look like?

Regarding 3Sphere vs SoR: I have a lot of competent Storm-plagers in my meta. 3 Sphere is just too slow. I do see the appeal of dropping SoR.

[Dice_Box]

Playing with a 3 Dual base, mine looks like this:

1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Fetches
3 Taiga
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Mox

I feel like when hedging against Storm you need speed. If your dropping Spheres for 3spheres, add Chalices.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I'm playing the same as dice except with an additional tranquil which I'm guessing is in the place of a utility land (I'm running bog and karakas in the side right now).

[Crimhead]

I think the third taiga is way better than the fourth fetch and would like to hear some opposing view points since it's not even close for me personally.The benefit of the fourth fetch over a third Taiga is that we can fetch our basic vs a Moon deck. I'm not saying this makes it better overall; we have to weight the pros and cons.

The density of Moon decks in your meta should be the biggest deciding factor I think.

[barcode]

Now I'm curious: what does your manabase look like?

Regarding 3Sphere vs SoR: I have a lot of competent Storm-plagers in my meta. 3 Sphere is just too slow. I do see the appeal of dropping SoR.

My mana producers:

4 Mox Diamond
3 Fetches
3 Taiga
1 Forest
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Rishadan Port
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bojuka Bog (hey, it makes mana)
1 Karakas

I will never play fewer than 3 Taigas.

[Dice_Box]

You can say we have hit the stage with a bang now, people want to ban us:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31352_Format-Problems-And-Solutions.html

(Yes, that list is playing a playset of Tabernacle.)

[barcode]

You can say we have hit the stage with a bang now, people want to ban us:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31352_Format-Problems-And-Solutions.html

(Yes, that list is playing a playset of Tabernacle.)

I can't take what he says seriously; I've seen him commentating in the booth.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

The benefit of the fourth fetch over a third Taiga is that we can fetch our basic vs a Moon deck. I'm not saying this makes it better overall; we have to weight the pros and cons.

The density of Moon decks in your meta should be the biggest deciding factor I think.I sort of meant beyond the obvious. Thanks for explaining blood moon though...

[lavafrogg]

Another lands top 8... still under the radar?

[Chatto]

I can't take what he says seriously; I've seen him commentating in the booth.

Have you seen his list? Of course he hates playing vs RGCL. Nothing what he has to say about bannings is to be taken seriously (well, maybe Top), except slowplaying being extremely irritating.


Another lands top 8... still under the radar?

Nope, but this deck hasn't been under the radar for quiet some time now :smile:

[The_Dingo]

I had a really hard time taking Shaheen Soorani's article seriously. His bias shows through quite clearly, and while I have no comments on top, I do have some comments about P firing someone to death when loam or depths has been extracted or is otherwise not a valid game plan.


While it takes many turns to actually close out a game with P fire, the amount of time it takes every turn to shortcut a p fire to the face then rebuy and cast again is probably 1 second once the loop has been established with your opponent.


What takes way more time is this scenario, which always seems to come up for me: Opponent draws a card, stares blankly at it for 5 seconds, Looks through my GY, flips through their cards for 5 more seconds, asks how many cards in hand, Looks through my GY again (they forgot), tanks for 5 seconds more, looks through their own GY (no, you have no more outs in your deck), frantically click their pen 20 times, Move their hat brim from the back to the side, then to the back, then take it off then put it on brim facing forward, sort out their lands perfectly like an obsessive compulsive (I try not to leave them many lands for this reason), then pass the turn where it takes me one second to shortcut through some P fires to the face. On my turn I take 3 seconds to untap draw, pass. Then they have to tank again in your end step, draw a card and look at it for 5 seconds, take a short nap, look through a trash can, sort their laundry, file their taxes etc etc.


P fire doesn't take very long at all to kill, it just gives your opponent a bunch of turns to sit around and look bored and act like an obsessive compulsive when they should just concede the game.

[Crimhead]

I sort of meant beyond the obvious. Thanks for explaining blood moon though...
Defense vs Moon is the only benefit I can think to a 4-2 split over a 3-3 split. I do think its potentially relevant.


(Yes, that list is playing a playset of Tabernacle.)
Damn! Better start saving...

[Nikolai004]

What takes way more time is this scenario, which always seems to come up for me: Opponent draws a card, stares blankly at it for 5 seconds, Looks through my GY, flips through their cards for 5 more seconds, asks how many cards in hand, Looks through my GY again (they forgot), tanks for 5 seconds more, looks through their own GY (no, you have no more outs in your deck), frantically click their pen 20 times, Move their hat brim from the back to the side, then to the back, then take it off then put it on brim facing forward, sort out their lands perfectly like an obsessive compulsive (I try not to leave them many lands for this reason), then pass the turn where it takes me one second to shortcut through some P fires to the face. On my turn I take 3 seconds to untap draw, pass. Then they have to tank again in your end step, draw a card and look at it for 5 seconds, take a short nap, look through a trash can, sort their laundry, file their taxes etc etc.


P fire doesn't take very long at all to kill, it just gives your opponent a bunch of turns to sit around and look bored and act like an obsessive compulsive when they should just concede the game.

This right here is something that people don't seem to understand. I've played two Legacy decks in major tournaments, Miracles and Lands. I know that both can be very slow to win and are both difficult to pilot and to play against. Almost every single time my matches would go to time is due to the opponent being in a position where I've got the game locked down and they need to play carefully to keep their chance of winning from slipping away.

Conversely it's a skill to know when to scoop because you can't win and you may need as much time in order to win the next two games. I haven't gotten comfortable calling a judge over because my opponent is slow playing, though usually by the time they do this we're one of the last matches and a judge wonders over and watches anyway and does a good job keeping the pace steady.

[Chatto]

Regarding Fetch in case of Blood Moon: It will be relevant, not potentially relevant. If this deck keeps performing like it does now, you can be sure Blood Moon will be played in higher numbers. Thing is that Tabernacle keeps us in check, so maybe dedicating slots to a 'maybe to encounter MU' will keep those numbers low enough. Still, I don't play that often, and people start remembering me as 'that guy on RGCL'.

With such a high percentage of wins there will be time that people will dedicate one or two slots in their SB.

[barcode]

Regarding Fetch in case of Blood Moon: It will be relevant, not potentially relevant. If this deck keeps performing like it does now, you can be sure Blood Moon will be played in higher numbers. Thing is that Tabernacle keeps us in check, so maybe dedicating slots to a 'maybe to encounter MU' will keep those numbers low enough. Still, I don't play that often, and people start remembering me as 'that guy on RGCL'.

With such a high percentage of wins there will be time that people will dedicate one or two slots in their SB.

Given how greedy people are being with their mana bases (why do you think we all do so well?) I would expect the red decks that can tolerate their own Blood Moon to play it for broader hate.

[gigapatrick]

On Soorani's article:

While, like others, I don't take seriously the idea that Punishing Fire or Depths will be banned (since after all these two cards see play only in Lands and a smattering of other decks, none of which has a large enough share of the meta to warrant a banning), I am rather irritated by Soorani's notion that slow play is especially a problem in regards to Lands. While watching Soorani play Ayers in the semifinals (not live, mind you), I couldn't help but notice that Soorani took much more time to think than did Ayers and that Soorani's deck has way more durdling cards built into it than does Ayers'. Ayers and Long have significantly shifted their decks towards generating the combo has fast as possible by maindecking the fourth copy of Depths, while Soorani's deck sports five one-mana cantrips, two Digs, and three Jaces, all of which encourage a player to take lengthy, complicated turns. If anything, I think Soorani's match against Ayers stands as evidence of the time sink inherent in playing blue-based decks, and if arguments for bannings on the basis of slow play were even valid, then we'd be banning a swath of blue cards including Brainstorm and Dig.

[Crimhead]

I think the decks that can run Moon already do run Moon. Moon is like Chalice - they hose almost every deck in the format, but do to their symmetric nature almost every deck can't actually run them!

[Croprot]

So this is my first post but hopefully can contribute something to this thread and the discussion about lands in general. I placed 19th at the scg open in DC with what I think is a pretty solid list. At the end of the day I was 11-4 with losses to mono red stomp, infect, shardles bug, and my friend who top 8 on reanimator. My victories were to infect, mana dredge, Omni tell, Stoneblade, several iterations of rug, grixis, and 4c Delver. Here is the list I ran.

4 Grove of the burnwilllows
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 thespian stage
3 dark depths
3 foot hills
2 Maze of ith
2 taiga
1 Forest
1 tranquil thicket
1 karakas
1 Glacial chasm
1 Bojuka bog
1 Ghostquarter
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
4 exploration
2 mana bond
4 mox diamond
4 crop rotation
4 life from the loam
4 gamble
4 punishing fire
1 zuran orb

SB
*
2 ashen rider
4 Trinisphere
2 choke
1 boseiju who shelters all
1 Chalice of the void
4 krosan grip
1 Pithing needle

Things that I will be changing is I am going up a Maze of ith and most likely putting the Bojuka and karakas in the board.
If anyone has any comments or questions they are welcome.

[Chatto]

On Soorani's article: (...).

That guy does not deserve the attention he gets. If he would be an employee of WotC, he would have singlehandedly killed a whole format. And for what? His personal gain. F**k him. My apologies, but I finally found a deck I like without blue! Killing some one with PF isn't slowplaying, it's winning. A good played will concede when he/ she has no lands in play, and Punishing-Grove is online: on to the next game, hopefully better luck this time.

I agree with you that Blue cantrips are more time consuming, unfortunately Soorani is a Blue mage and will never admit this.

EDIT: welcome Croprot! And congrats!

[Croprot]

On Soorani's article:

While, like others, I don't take seriously the idea that Punishing Fire or Depths will be banned (since after all these two cards see play only in Lands and a smattering of other decks, none of which has a large enough share of the meta to warrant a banning), I am rather irritated by Soorani's notion that slow play is especially a problem in regards to Lands. While watching Soorani play Ayers in the semifinals (not live, mind you), I couldn't help but notice that Soorani took much more time to think than did Ayers and that Soorani's deck has way more durdling cards built into it than does Ayers'. Ayers and Long have significantly shifted their decks towards generating the combo has fast as possible by maindecking the fourth copy of Depths, while Soorani's deck sports five one-mana cantrips, two Digs, and three Jaces, all of which encourage a player to take lengthy, complicated turns. If anything, I think Soorani's match against Ayers stands as evidence of the time sink inherent in playing blue-based decks, and if arguments for bannings on the basis of slow play were even valid, then we'd be banning a swath of blue cards including Brainstorm and Dig.

So i encountered several people who were not happy to play against lands at the scg open, one of them even chided "well i guess im going to time this round" after realizing the deck i was on. that game in particular i killed him on turn three. I think with the trend towards a faster combo deck with controlling elements that RG lands is going towards this criticism will soon be laughed at as people start scooping on turn two to a 20/20 more regularly. the longest round i played at the open was against an omni tell player simply because he wasnt aware of how trinisphere worked through omniscience. 3 turns after the judge ruling he scooped. not once did my games go to time nor did i not have time to use the restroom after finishing a round.

[lavafrogg]

Just to add on the slow play train: I Have played a 3 match game against miracles many times where we both agreed that we would hurry up and not go to time. This includes many game 3's played in less than 5 minutes, with both players making an effort to not draw.

Be respectful and if you are locked under a jace and time is called, extend your hand and scoop. If a lands player has the game locked down and just can't find the kill, people need to have a little more sportsmanship and just call the game. It really just involves being a good winner and a gracious loser.

[barcode]

So this is my first post but hopefully can contribute something to this thread and the discussion about lands in general. I placed 19th at the scg open in DC with what I think is a pretty solid list. At the end of the day I was 11-4 with losses to mono red stomp, infect, shardles bug, and my friend who top 8 on reanimator. My victories were to infect, mana dredge, Omni tell, Stoneblade, several iterations of rug, grixis, and 4c Delver. Here is the list I ran.

4 Grove of the burnwilllows
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 thespian stage
3 dark depths
3 foot hills
2 Maze of ith
2 taiga
1 Forest
1 tranquil thicket
1 karakas
1 Glacial chasm
1 Bojuka bog
1 Ghostquarter
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
4 exploration
2 mana bond
4 mox diamond
4 crop rotation
4 life from the loam
4 gamble
4 punishing fire
1 zuran orb

SB
*
2 ashen rider
4 Trinisphere
2 choke
1 boseiju who shelters all
1 Chalice of the void
4 krosan grip
1 Pithing needle

Things that I will be changing is I am going up a Maze of ith and most likely putting the Bojuka and karakas in the board.
If anyone has any comments or questions they are welcome.

How did you like Zuran Orb? It seems kind of weak since you can't tutor or recur it like the blue version. Was Ashen Rider playable?

I'm surprised you lost to Shardless Sultai! How did you lose that one? They have such a greedy manabase.

I play Karakas and Bojuka Bog in the main and I'm quite happy with them. Bog gives extra outs to Reanimator and makes Dredge winnable and also makes Temur Delver more even. Karakas means never losing to Death & Taxes.

[Croprot]

How did you like Zuran Orb? It seems kind of weak since you can't tutor or recur it like the blue version. Was Ashen Rider playable?

I'm surprised you lost to Shardless Sultai! How did you lose that one? They have such a greedy manabase.

I play Karakas and Bojuka Bog in the main and I'm quite happy with them. Bog gives extra outs to Reanimator and makes Dredge winnable and also makes Temur Delver more even. Karakas means never losing to Death & Taxes.


Zuran orb was sided out a lot so its getting cut from the build. i was worried about burn being big and not wanting to rely solely on my chasm to save the day. im thinking of putting seismic assault somewhere to deal with the blood moon matchup but thats still in the development stages.

Ashen rider has exactly 2 matchups that it comes in for. sneak and show and omni tell. one of the wins against the omnitell player was almost textbook in terms of the theory behind it. my opponent looks at my hand with probe and just goes straight for the throat with a turn to show and tell which i put a trinisphere in he puts omniscience. this locks him out. i go waste land on his city of traitors and then krosan grip on my turn. he eventually reassembles and puts emrakul in with the show and tell which is met by ashen rider. i think for this matchup if there is a single permanent to put in from the lands side that isnt trinisphere or choke i think ashen rider just does everything you want. it must be asnwered as it is a 4 turn clock and if they attack with emrakul it dies to annihilator and kills emrakul before damage. i like the card a lot but im not sure that its completely necessary yet. if anyone else has tested with it i would like to know there experience as mine has been nothing but positive in that matchup.

My match with reanimator was very one sided as i predicted it would be. karakas doesnt seem as good as bog in my opinion as we just cant answer tidespout tyrant. i was killed with grave titan two games in a row as i couldnt get tabernacle into play. also the bojuka bog was barely useful in the mana dredge match in round 15. i would have liked more chalice of the voids in my board as that was very useful in game two even though i lost. i tested with my friend after the event more and that card is very good with trinisphere and choke which are both rock stars.

i lost to mike braverman, i dropped turn 2 sphere into turn 3 choke both game 2 and 3 with wasteland hate after losing game one. game one loss was my fault as i kept a relatively loose hand and he was well equipped with deathrite and counter magic. game three the reason i lost was he stuck a goyf that i never found a maze of ith to try and match. goyf killed me over the course of 10 turns. just couldnt stabalize.

something else i would like to know is how you feal about being on 0 sphere of resistance in lieu of 4x trini and 2 chalice.

[barcode]

something else i would like to know is how you feal about being on 0 sphere of resistance in lieu of 4x trini and 2 chalice.

I play 2 Trinisphere, 2 Chalice of the Void and 3 Sphere of Resistance (this might go back up to 4 before Champs - not sure yet).

I think Sphere of Resistance is better than Trinisphere but not for every matchup.

I only want Spheres for combo matchups but 3balls for Miracles, Omni, and other decks which are short on lands.

[Croprot]

I play 2 Trinisphere, 2 Chalice of the Void and 3 Sphere of Resistance (this might go back up to 4 before Champs - not sure yet).

I think Sphere of Resistance is better than Trinisphere but not for every matchup.

I only want Spheres for combo matchups but 3balls for Miracles, Omni, and other decks which are short on lands.

thats fair. i dont think i really need the ashen riders to be honest. they were a knee jerk reaction to how overwhelmingly helpless we are game one against omni tell. currently the board im working with is
1 boseiju
4 k grip
3 trini
2 chalice
3 sphere
2 choke

the choke may come out of the board if i find the riders are necessary or perhaps iona.

[horrain]

Hey All, this weekend I'm going to be playing in as many Legacy side-events as humanly possible during GP London. Since I built my deck, the meta has changed, so in preparation I've been updating my 75 so its hopefully slightly better positioned vs an unknown meta.

Its super stock, but inexperience is getting the better of me, so am hoping for seasoned vets to tell me its alright :)



4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
4 Punishing Fire

4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Choke
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Krosan Grip
4 Trinisphere


Does it make sense to board in Emrakul vs Omni-Tell? If so, if/when my opponent goes for a Release the Ants win, do I clash till I top deck Emrakul, and hope I can make a Witch during their end-step?

Option wise, I have available:



4 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Zuran Orb
2 Worm Harvest


I'm hoping to be able to take detailed enough notes, so with any luck I'll be posting a wall of text in a few days time :)

[Whitefaces]

Does it make sense to board in Emrakul vs Omni-Tell? If so, if/when my opponent goes for a Release the Ants win, do I clash till I top deck Emrakul, and hope I can make a Witch during their end-step?

Option wise, I have available:



4 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Zuran Orb
2 Worm Harvest


Emrakul was added to Longs SB for the Painter MU, I doubt there will be much of that at the GP side events to be honest, it's probably not worth the SB slot. I can't imagine it's worth bringing Emrakul in the hope to win the clash with Omni either. Even if you did strike lucky and get it, you'd better still be able to win on your following turn as they're going to draw that Emrakul (assuming they can't draw it after failing the clash) and hit you in the face. Since you'll be spending resources (I imagine) on Porting them, the chances of you having the combo ready to go is slim.

I'll be playing in the side events too, but not with lands. I have no idea what people will be on though, I'm planning to just play a bunch of janky Nic Fit decks probably, it'll be quite unpredictable! I'd suggest something like this, but I'm not an expert on the deck.

4 Krosan Grip
3 Trinisphere
3 Choke
1 Worm Harvest
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Boseiju
1 Bojuka Bog

[Croprot]

Hey All, this weekend I'm going to be playing in as many Legacy side-events as humanly possible during GP London. Since I built my deck, the meta has changed, so in preparation I've been updating my 75 so its hopefully slightly better positioned vs an unknown meta.

Its super stock, but inexperience is getting the better of me, so am hoping for seasoned vets to tell me its alright :)



4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
4 Punishing Fire

4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Choke
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Krosan Grip
4 Trinisphere


Does it make sense to board in Emrakul vs Omni-Tell? If so, if/when my opponent goes for a Release the Ants win, do I clash till I top deck Emrakul, and hope I can make a Witch during their end-step?

Option wise, I have available:



4 Pithing Needle
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Zuran Orb
2 Worm Harvest


I'm hoping to be able to take detailed enough notes, so with any luck I'll be posting a wall of text in a few days time :)

I've never liked the emrakul vs Omni tell. It is clunky and doesn't do anything if you don't have a sphere in play first. If you are looking for a beater I'd recommend either ashen rider or iona. Both do immediate damage and iona doesn't need a sphere effect. The only time you want ashen rider over any of them is when you have a sphere so they cant trick bind you. Both of them also race pyromancer very well.

[Whitefaces]

The problem with all these 'hidden tricks' is they run a set of Gitaxian Probe. Any good Omni player will know to probe first.

[Croprot]

The problem with all these 'hidden tricks' is they run a set of Gitaxian Probe. Any good Omni player will know to probe first.

yes but i dont think that precludes us from playing the beaters if we think that we need them. even if they do see an ashen rider or iona they still need to play around those cards now, and they must do it quickly because we still have a 20/20 that can happen. i personally still think we should go for the 20/20 plan but i do know some lands players who swear by iona or ashen rider as a card. i think the choice to play a beater is a personal one and has advantages and disadvantages. with choke trini and k grip the matchup is pretty tilted in our favor post board.

[barcode]

Emrakul is ONLY playable if you expect a certain percent of the field to be playing Painter. Don't waste a sideboard slot on a match you'll likely never see.

[Dice_Box]

Better off playing that new Vortex anyway. I have done some testing against Painter. It's only a touch easier than Dragon Stompy and that decks a bitch too. Honestly my suggestion is really, not worth the sideboard slots anyway unless you know you will face it. The match is just too unbalanced.

[horrain]

Thanks for the replays, have swapped Emrakul out for Worm Harvest.

As there are six four round legacy side events over the weekend, I imagine I'll be able to get a feel for the meta, and be able to adjust my board accordingly.

Dissection: I played in a dark sphere legacy event earlier in the year, saw quite a few Omni-Tell, Shardless Bug, Reanimator and Delver decks.

[Whitefaces]

Dissection: I played in a dark sphere legacy event earlier in the year, saw quite a few Omni-Tell, Shardless Bug, Reanimator and Delver decks.

That's where I play, good chance I was on Shardless too. Though the 'meta' there is totally unhinged, you never know what to expect!

Due to there only being these rather casual looking 4-round side events, this is probably a good opportunity to try different things. I've always been slightly on the fence about Worm Harvest, but it wrecks miracles, I'm sure there will be some of those at the GP side events. See if it's worth the SB slot.

[Crimhead]

I sort of meant beyond the obvious. Thanks for explaining blood moon though...
I guess the other benefit is that fetches can be Loamed back. With a four two split you can get a second (or third) forest in play faster and more reliablly. The downside is they become dead draws later, but the theory is that once you've fetcvhed (or drawn) both Taigas and a Forest getting yet another is of reduced value.

Maybe this is obvious too, but nonetheless these are reasons to run a 4-2 split (and you did ask).

[djxstream]

I guess the other benefit is that fetches can be Loamed back. With a four two split you can get a second (or third) forest in play faster and more reliablly. The downside is they become dead draws later, but the theory is that once you've fetcvhed (or drawn) both Taigas and a Forest getting yet another is of reduced value.

Maybe this is obvious too, but nonetheless these are reasons to run a 4-2 split (and you did ask).

a "dead" fetch is still a great crop rotation sacrifice.

[Croprot]

I'd like to know how you guys play against miracles. I've had some trouble with playing against it and I'm considering putting worm harvest back in my board but i don't know if its worth it or not. currently my board is

1 boseiju
4 k grip
3 trini
3 sphere of resistance
2 chalice
2 choke

my usual board out is
punishing fire x3
tabernacle x1
glacial chasm x1
karakas x1
bojuka bog x1
mana bond x2

i bring in
boseiju x1
k grip x4
trini x3
choke x2

as i understand it we are trying to turn them off of as much blue as possible throughout the match so port and wasteland are both priority. once they get counter top up i almost always take out top first to prevent them from digging down into their deck. id like to know your opinions on this strategy as well as if you guys have any insight.

[barcode]

Chalice of the Void is very good against Miracles -- ESPECIALLY the Ponder variants. You want it in your deck. You probably don't want Crop Rotation in vs a deck with a ton of counterspells (and since you're packing Chalice). If you need more slots cut a Dark Depths.

[CptHaddock]

I'd like to know how you guys play against miracles. I've had some trouble with playing against it and I'm considering putting worm harvest back in my board but i don't know if its worth it or not. currently my board is

1 boseiju
4 k grip
3 trini
3 sphere of resistance
2 chalice
2 choke

my usual board out is
punishing fire x3
tabernacle x1
glacial chasm x1
karakas x1
bojuka bog x1
mana bond x2

i bring in
boseiju x1
k grip x4
trini x3
choke x2

as i understand it we are trying to turn them off of as much blue as possible throughout the match so port and wasteland are both priority. once they get counter top up i almost always take out top first to prevent them from digging down into their deck. id like to know your opinions on this strategy as well as if you guys have any insight.

I think I would take out maze of ith before I start taking out the punishing fires, same with the bog and karakas (I play both of those in the sideboard). I usually take out some number of crop rotations aswell. Other than that that sounds about right, I would bring in the chalices as well. Post board you just want to try to lock them out whatever way you can and fight through all their hate.

[GrimoirePath]

The slow play complaints seem a bit strange to me. I rarely get to play Magic due to living a life, and when I do set aside a day for a tournament, I want to, you know, play Magic. Racing through games isnt why i paid an entry fee. Now of course, I dont want to draw out every round, but games where the balance of power shifts between players who need to continue to make optimal decisions are the best games!

I think perhaps some players are jaded and no longer excited about playing, and are just going through the motions?

[barcode]

The slow play complaints seem a bit strange to me. I rarely get to play Magic due to living a life, and when I do set aside a day for a tournament, I want to, you know, play Magic. Racing through games isnt why i paid an entry fee. Now of course, I dont want to draw out every round, but games where the balance of power shifts between players who need to continue to make optimal decisions are the best games!

I think perhaps some players are jaded and no longer excited about playing, and are just going through the motions?

Slow play is a HUGE problem. The complaint has nothing to do with casuals coming out to play magic but with people taking longer than normal to play the game. You do not have the right to steal clock time from your opponent.

[lavafrogg]

Went 4-2 at today's legacy tournament.

Beating RUG Delver 2-0, BUG Delver 2-1, Infect 2-0 and Elves 2-1.

Losing to Miracles 0-2 and Omnitell 0-2.

I am fine losing to Omnitell but I want to find ways to win against miracles without switching to RUG. I am comfortable running 4 depths 4 stage and just racing in the combo matchup.

Does anyone have a good miracles plan?

[barcode]

Does anyone have a good miracles plan?

Read up a few posts; this very topic was discussed.

[GrimoirePath]

Slow play is a HUGE problem. The complaint has nothing to do with casuals coming out to play magic but with people taking longer than normal to play the game. You do not have the right to steal clock time from your opponent.

Right, but that article seems to be suggesting that Lands is a de facto "slow play" deck. Thats baloney.

[Dice_Box]

I will take as much time as someone gives me. If I have Grove, Fire going and you want to hold on for dear life, ain't my issue. The one I have to explain sometimes us "You had the combo on board, why did you not got for it?" And that normally comes down to "I was looking for a Port for your Plains."

[lavafrogg]

I have played quite a few miracles matches and I assure you that the miracles person is easily the "slower" player. All of the blue cantrips and topping is infinitely more than, gain 1 take 2 go, or remove 1 counter from my depths go.

Want to ban cards for game length talk to my RUG opponent who lost to a turn 2 manabond(to play around daze) or my elves opponent that lost on turn 3.

You will never see a miracles player win on turn 2, 3, 4, or 5 for that matter.

@barcode I can find a few general sideboard cards but nothing that specifically talks about what people are doing against miracles.

The opening post has some good points but I was just asking.

[Dice_Box]

Quick question: how do people feel about boarding Exploration out against Miracles? Putting in multiple Sphere-effects, Choke and Boseiju.
Start there, read on.

[lavafrogg]

Start there, read on.



Quote Originally Posted by Chatto View Post
Quick question: how do people feel about boarding Exploration out against Miracles? Putting in multiple Sphere-effects, Choke and Boseiju.
My plan for Miracles is:

+1 Boseiju
+1 Choke
+2 Trinisphere
+2 Chalice of the Void
+4 Krosan Grip

-3 Crop Rotation
-1 Manabond
-3 Maze of Ith
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Dark Depths

Exploration is very important to getting a mana advantage so you can cast Trinisphere and other hate cards. Later, being able to Loam back Stage and Depths and play both in the same turn is very powerful indeed.

Thanks?

[barcode]

Quote Originally Posted by Chatto View Post
Quick question: how do people feel about boarding Exploration out against Miracles? Putting in multiple Sphere-effects, Choke and Boseiju.
My plan for Miracles is:

+1 Boseiju
+1 Choke
+2 Trinisphere
+2 Chalice of the Void
+4 Krosan Grip

-3 Crop Rotation
-1 Manabond
-3 Maze of Ith
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Dark Depths

Exploration is very important to getting a mana advantage so you can cast Trinisphere and other hate cards. Later, being able to Loam back Stage and Depths and play both in the same turn is very powerful indeed.

Thanks?

That sounds like something I'd write. Hey it is, and it's a few pages back. Gosh, I'm full of such wonderful advice.

Do you have anything to share in the discussion of Miracles sideboarding? Questions? Comments? What has been working for you? What hasn't been working for you?

[lavafrogg]

I am usually able to steal a game by combining before they can get multiple plains, as they usually go for the counter top lock as soon as possible, but if they can get multiple basic plains up it just seems as if I am waiting to see if they draw a win condition before I can naturally draw more ports/stages.

They have no interaction with our lands and lots of dead cards game one.

I am just not sure what I can do or what I am doing wrong.

[RPGbudgie]

I haven't seen this mentioned before so I figured I'd share it here. I found a novel way to get around a deathrite/punishing fire standoff.

This type of standoff comes up when your opponent has an active deathrite and you have a punishing fire in the yard and a grove on the field. You can't trigger punishing fire and buy it back because your opponent will eat it in response and your opponent can't eat it preemptively because then you will trigger it in response and buy it back. This situation normally gets resolved when one side finds a way to break parity. This usually happens when you get another punishing fire or they get another deathrite.

However, you can also use krosan grip to get your punishing fire back without any possible interference from your opponent, even surgical or extirpate out of the hand.

As most will know, you can save a punishing fire from extirpate since split second still lets you use mana abilities and grove's mana ability will trigger the punishing fire. In this case, we turn that around. Cast krosan grip targeting any artifact or enchantment and hold priority. Tap your grove and trigger punishing fire and then buy it back. Your opponent cannot interact due to the wording on split second:

"As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities"

The trigger can't be stifled, the punishing fire can't be surgical extractioned, the death rite can't eat it, etc.

[Dice_Box]

Trixy, I like it.

[barcode]

I haven't seen this mentioned before so I figured I'd share it here. I found a novel way to get around a deathrite/punishing fire standoff.

This type of standoff comes up when your opponent has an active deathrite and you have a punishing fire in the yard and a grove on the field. You can't trigger punishing fire and buy it back because your opponent will eat it in response and your opponent can't eat it preemptively because then you will trigger it in response and buy it back. This situation normally gets resolved when one side finds a way to break parity. This usually happens when you get another punishing fire or they get another deathrite.

However, you can also use krosan grip to get your punishing fire back without any possible interference from your opponent, even surgical or extirpate out of the hand.

As most will know, you can save a punishing fire from extirpate since split second still lets you use mana abilities and grove's mana ability will trigger the punishing fire. In this case, we turn that around. Cast krosan grip targeting any artifact or enchantment and hold priority. Tap your grove and trigger punishing fire and then buy it back. Your opponent cannot interact due to the wording on split second:

"As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't cast spells or activate abilities that aren't mana abilities"

The trigger can't be stifled, the punishing fire can't be surgical extractioned, the death rite can't eat it, etc.

Very nice find.

[door]

I haven't seen this mentioned before so I figured I'd share it here. I found a novel way to get around a deathrite/punishing fire standoff.
A nice find, thank you! The only question however is to find a target for the Krosan Grip.


I'd like to know how you guys play against miracles. I've had some trouble with playing against it and I'm considering putting worm harvest back in my board but i don't know if its worth it or not. currently my board is

Worm Harvest is a very good card against Miracles. But if you choose to play it, put it in the maindeck not SB. After sb it usually looses most of its value because of the opponent's gravehate brought from sideboard. Also check the strategy against Miracles in the primer (first post). Additionally I used 2 Stranglehold in SB versus miracles with certain success.

[Chatto]

@ RPGbudgie: thanks for sharing. Perhaps put a link in the OP?

[Dice_Box]

Will do.

[UnsungHero]

A nice find, thank you! The only question however is to find a target for the Krosan Grip..

Mox Diamond, Exploration, Manabond, Artifact or an Enchantment from the board.
Very awesome trick, thats for sure! This should defiantly be put in the primer.

[CptHaddock]

For those of you that run Boseiju in the board, how do you guys like it? Are you guys very aggressive with it in the miracles matchup? Do you also board it in for any other matchups?

[Nikolai004]

I am usually able to steal a game by combining before they can get multiple plains, as they usually go for the counter top lock as soon as possible, but if they can get multiple basic plains up it just seems as if I am waiting to see if they draw a win condition before I can naturally draw more ports/stages.

They have no interaction with our lands and lots of dead cards game one.

I am just not sure what I can do or what I am doing wrong.


The best advice I can have for you, especially game one against miracles, is to make them have it. Game one they only have 3-4 swords and 4 terminus which has to be top decked to be useful and you can recur the combo, basically forever. Eventually they'll run out of answers and as long as you have an exploration or manabond it's a quick process.

[Sibelius]

For those of you that run Boseiju in the board, how do you guys like it? Are you guys very aggressive with it in the miracles matchup? Do you also board it in for any other matchups?

I have in the past cropped for Boseiju in the early turns before the counter top lock arrives. It is great against them. Uncounterable fire against Jace and unprotected Mentor and uncounterable Loam for when you really need it give you a significant edge.
Unless they are land light and you waste them out early or you make Lage and they don't have 'it' you are going long. The matchup is won and lost in how you sequence your spells and lands in response to what they are doing. Casting grip after they are rearranging at the end of turn, using Ghost Quarter at the right point to force through a Crop or Grip or to destroy one of their two plains, casting Crop into a fetchland activation to see if they are willing to put their top back into the library, the list goes on.
The addition of Choke is also massively helpful but resolving it can be hard. Burn Crops and Explorations etc to get it through CB.
Remember Rishadan Port is great in this matchup. Think carefully about how to use it though when you have multiples. if you are going for the combo take out the white, otherwise try to keep them off Jace mana. If you are tapping blue weigh up the advantages and disadvantages of tapping a blue before the draw step. They will use this to top and set their draw. If however you tap two blue after you might give them a 'free' Dig Through Time.
My last piece of advice is know when to concede. Usually when they have Jace + Top + CB ....:wink:

My current board for reference
4 Grip
4 Trini
3 Choke
1 Boseiju
1 Bog
2 Chalice

Hope this helps

[Nikolai004]

Has anyone been trying out Ancient Tomb in the side as a 1 of lately? With the increase of Omnitell and the increase of Trinisphere in the sideboard I would imagine that the sol land would help to counteract the sphere affect. I've tried it out recently but have only managed to go to one tournament and we barely had ten players. While I did well I didn't get much of a chance to really test it out and didn't see it often when I did bring it in.

[Chatto]

I tried AT a while back, but only naturally drawn into it. Problem with AT is that you either have it with hate in hand, naturally draw it, CR for it and also make it to your second landdrop (unless you have Mox D of course). All the while you need to keep in mind that your opponent can couter CR (which set you back, and will probably make you lose) or couter your hate (which probably will make you lose the game).

Now the benefits are obvious, but in my (rather limited) testing I never had the feeling AT as a one-of gave me an edge. I much more believe in holding on to Trini, drop it with SnT, and play a Choke as a follow-up (I did this, the only time I played and won against Omnitell). I would say test it, and let us know :smile: Perhaps I'm just too negative, and will you prof me wrong.

[Nikolai004]

I tried AT a while back, but only naturally drawn into it. Problem with AT is that you either have it with hate in hand, naturally draw it, CR for it and also make it to your second landdrop (unless you have Mox D of course). All the while you need to keep in mind that your opponent can couter CR (which set you back, and will probably make you lose) or couter your hate (which probably will make you lose the game).

Now the benefits are obvious, but in my (rather limited) testing I never had the feeling AT as a one-of gave me an edge. I much more believe in holding on to Trini, drop it with SnT, and play a Choke as a follow-up (I did this, the only time I played and won against Omnitell). I would say test it, and let us know :smile: Perhaps I'm just too negative, and will you prof me wrong.

That's been my experience with it too and that's exactly how my omni-tell match usually goes. I just hold onto Trinisphere, why risk letting them counter it, until they let me put it into play for free. Hopefully afterwards I get to drop a choke. When I land both the game is essentially over. Trinisphere slows them down but both locks them out, with at least one Port available.

I'm attempting to talk myself out of the Ancient Tomb in the side and put in something else, more hate for Omni or Burn, or something. I just can't decide what I'd like or even if it's something I should drop. Hence why I figured this place would be the best to ask.

[Croprot]

Has anyone been trying out Ancient Tomb in the side as a 1 of lately? With the increase of Omnitell and the increase of Trinisphere in the sideboard I would imagine that the sol land would help to counteract the sphere affect. I've tried it out recently but have only managed to go to one tournament and we barely had ten players. While I did well I didn't get much of a chance to really test it out and didn't see it often when I did bring it in.

I have an Omni tell player at my local store and I went from getting crushed by him to not dropping a match by just allowing his show and tell to resolve and keeping a fist full of hate and not casting the sphere effect. The match up is almost unlosable in my experience if played correctly. It's a weird line of play to let them try and go for their combo because we usually have to be preemptive with most combo decks. Because their deck is so linear and predictable the only thing you really need to do on each turn (barring waste land effects which can be debatable depending on board state) is accumulate cards in hand and put lands on the table. They are on the clock because we will eventually find our combo pieces. Casting our hate gives them time to respond and that is something that we can't afford in the match up. They have to cast a show and tell to do anything which is really good for us as it let's us put a piece of hate on the board without them being able to do anything about it. The automatic go to to put in should be Trinisphere or sphere of resistance, I'm off thorn because it doesn't hit emrakul. After that either use a krosan grip or drop choke and they have a very difficult time building anything resembling a board state. Bottom line we don't need ancient tomb.

[Nikolai004]

I have an Omni tell player at my local store and I went from getting crushed by him to not dropping a match by just allowing his show and tell to resolve and keeping a fist full of hate and not casting the sphere effect. The match up is almost unlosable in my experience if played correctly. It's a weird line of play to let them try and go for their combo because we usually have to be preemptive with most combo decks. Because their deck is so linear and predictable the only thing you really need to do on each turn (barring waste land effects which can be debatable depending on board state) is accumulate cards in hand and put lands on the table. They are on the clock because we will eventually find our combo pieces. Casting our hate gives them time to respond and that is something that we can't afford in the match up. They have to cast a show and tell to do anything which is really good for us as it let's us put a piece of hate on the board without them being able to do anything about it. The automatic go to to put in should be Trinisphere or sphere of resistance, I'm off thorn because it doesn't hit emrakul. After that either use a krosan grip or drop choke and they have a very difficult time building anything resembling a board state. Bottom line we don't need ancient tomb.

I agree completely with your thought process and line of play against Omni. It seems to me to be the most obvious and efficient way to win, use their card against them.

[Dice_Box]

I tried that. The guy learnt and would dig for Emmy before he showed in Omni. Then he would cast Emmy for 3 on the next turn and just kill me.

[Whitefaces]

Putting in 3Sphere from SnT followed by a Choke is definitely the best line to beat omni. Having Ports to back it up is great too. But it won't always work. Savvy Omni players will probe, see what's up and then dig for 6 mana + emrakul.

[barcode]

I tried AT a while back, but only naturally drawn into it. Problem with AT is that you either have it with hate in hand, naturally draw it, CR for it and also make it to your second landdrop (unless you have Mox D of course). All the while you need to keep in mind that your opponent can couter CR (which set you back, and will probably make you lose) or couter your hate (which probably will make you lose the game).

This is why I cut Crop Rotation against omni. While it would be great to just flash assemble the combo the chance that my opponent force of wills and sets me so far back is just not worth it. Of course some people might write the matchup off and force their opponent to "have it" and that's a valid strategy too, but it isn't mine.

I haven't played Ancient Tomb and don't intend to. We already have a ton of mana, Tomb is dead in every matchup except one.

[Whitefaces]

From my understanding, Tomb is mostly there for combo matchups like storm. It allows you to CR > Tomb > Sphere effects/CotV.

[Nikolai004]

From my understanding, Tomb is mostly there for combo matchups like storm. It allows you to CR > Tomb > Sphere effects/CotV.

That's mainly why I wanted to try it. The usefulness in omni as a way to work around my own sphere effects.

[Crimhead]

I tried that. The guy learnt and would dig for Emmy before he showed in Omni. Then he would cast Emmy for 3 on the next turn and just kill me.This is the argument for not waiting - sphere effects can make it harder for them to cantrip into their combo/answers.


The match up is almost unlosable in my experience if played correctly.Only if we play correctly but they do not. Omni is a very hard MU.


I haven't seen this mentioned before so I figured I'd share it here. I found a novel way to get around a deathrite/punishing fire standoff...
...However, you can also use krosan grip to get your punishing fire back without any possible interference from your opponent, even surgical or extirpate out of the hand.Beautiful! I never thought of that one (which is kind of sad seeing as my EDH Lands deck sometimes uses Phyrexian Tower as a sac outlet in response to split second).

[lavafrogg]

I am on the 4 choke sideboard plan right now. Islands are everywhere at this point.

4 sphere
4 choke
4 grip
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
1 ghost quarter

Is what I am currently running.

What are your thoughts on death and taxes?

[Chatto]

This is the argument for not waiting - sphere effects can make it harder for them to cantrip into their combo/answers.

(...)

Only if we play correctly but they do not. Omni is a very hard MU.

It is an argument for not waiting, but (depending on your SB) you should have enough answers. I mean, assuming Trinisphere was dropped through SnT, had Dice dropped a Choke or played K-Grip it was gg. In my opinion it was just bad luck. I do agree it's not that easy MU, though. Properly sequensing and mulling is/ can be pretty hard.


I am on the 4 choke sideboard plan right now. Islands are everywhere at this point.

4 sphere
4 choke
4 grip
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
1 ghost quarter

Is what I am currently running.

What are your thoughts on death and taxes?

I play two Choke, and sofar it's been enough.

I never have a problem with DnT. Before SB, StP given you enough time to assemble the combo multiple times, allmost all their creatures are in PF-range, and Maze handles the rest. Only their taxing creatures can be a pain in the ass. After SB, watch out for RiP, take some damage if you must, but try to hold on to PF, and only combo out when you are sure they can't answer the Witch or you are able to K-grip their RiP.

[Philipp2293]

Also keep in mind that they probably bring in Cataclysm, so if possible, try to port them of Cataclysm mana. Even if it resolves, it's very possible to recover, but RIP -> Cataclysm is very brutal.

[Chatto]

That is a beating, thank God I never had to go through that one.

[Croprot]

Also keep in mind that they probably bring in Cataclysm, so if possible, try to port them of Cataclysm mana. Even if it resolves, it's very possible to recover, but RIP -> Cataclysm is very brutal.

Yea this deck and a few of the faster combo decks is the reason I had to put sphere of resistance back in my board. Cataclysm is so ruthless.

[barcode]

I am on the 4 choke sideboard plan right now. Islands are everywhere at this point.

4 sphere
4 choke
4 grip
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
1 ghost quarter

Is what I am currently running.

What are your thoughts on death and taxes?

I have never lost a match to Death & Taxes and I have between 10 and 15 matches in the can. Almost every creature in their deck dies to Punishing Fire and they have very few ways to interact favourably with our 20/20 aside from Flickerwisp and Karakas. Their important cards are all answered by Krosan Grip.

I think you'll want some number of Trinisphere in your sideboard, by the way.

I had a D&T player cast Cataclysm. In response I made a 20/20 and kept:

Merit Lage
Exploration
Mox Diamond
Forest

He kept
Batterskull
Germ
Plains
Aether Vial

And then he fished up another Plains with Flagstones.

He lost. Even if I couldn't create a 20/20 right there I still would have won since I had access to Loam and Exploration. Reassembling from Cataclysm is trivial.

[snorlaxcom]

He kept
Batterskull
Germ
Plains
Aether Vial

And then he fished up another Plains with Flagstones.

He lost.

How can he have vial and bskull or am I missing something?

[barcode]

How can he have vial and bskull or am I missing something?

I goofed! He ditched the Vial!

I had more permanents than he did.

[djxstream]

so question. just listening to the brainstorm brewery's podcast episode on lands to study up for eternal weekend!

and when talking miracles, omni, storm matchups i hear more of less the following said: "and you want the fast hand with manabond/combo in these games to sneak out a win"

this got me thinking that maybe instead of 8 hate pieces in the SB, like spheres, chokes, chalice. cut 2 of them and use 3rd and 4th manabonds and you bring them in for these unfavorable matches that sometimes cant handle the super quick combo. anyone try this already? I'm not going to do it this weekend..but maybe i'll toy with it after the tourney.

[Nikolai004]

so question. just listening to the brainstorm brewery's podcast episode on lands to study up for eternal weekend!

and when talking miracles, omni, storm matchups i hear more of less the following said: "and you want the fast hand with manabond/combo in these games to sneak out a win"

this got me thinking that maybe instead of 8 hate pieces in the SB, like spheres, chokes, chalice. cut 2 of them and use 3rd and 4th manabonds and you bring them in for these unfavorable matches that sometimes cant handle the super quick combo. anyone try this already? I'm not going to do it this weekend..but maybe i'll toy with it after the tourney.

I certainly can't speak for everyone, and I'm sure I'm missing another major reason but I wouldn't risk it. Too many things need to be exactly right for the win and too many things can go wrong. If they bring in graveyard hate then dumping your hand could put us behind too much. On the other side, things could go perfectly and they'll have an answer for the token and we can still very easily lose. Taking a more control/lock out approach we're able to prolong the game and when it comes to the long game, we're more likely to win then.

[Dice_Box]

The thing is, Manabond on its own does nothing, it's just another piece that needs extra pieces to work, in multiples it doesn't stack and if your opponent brings in any graveyard hate it's a liability. Add on that the fact that you often want to keep spells or hate pieces in your hand after siding that Bond makes you discard and you have a bad mix all round.

Extra speed is a sideboard option, normally shown in the form of Depths number 4 (or 3) depending on how many you run main. That's the best plan if that's your goal.

[Chatto]

@ djxstream: adding to what has been said: we can be fast, but certain Storm-decks are just faster. Sure, I have had T2-kills, but Storm can have T1-kills.

Sphere-effects are there to combat the faster decks in your meta. It also helps you when going the control-route. A fast Witch doesn't garantuee anything as your opponent can take care of her, just like you said.

[Chatto]

RGCL went top 8: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/legacychamp15/top-8-decklists-2015-08-22

[Dice_Box]

Also in 9th, 10th and 24th. So close to 3 decks in the top 8.

Good catch by the way. I missed that Eternal was due.

[lavafrogg]

Is tarmogoyf just not good in legacy anymore? It's so sad.

[iamajellydonut]

Is tarmogoyf just not good in legacy anymore? It's so sad.

Tarmogoyf has been awful for years now.

[Croprot]

Hey guys. I just got in from eternal weekend but I'll be posting a tournament report tomorrow at some point about the legacy world championship. Here is the list for now and I'll give you guys a report tomorrow after I recover(I got ninth place) http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/legacychamp15/top-32-decklists-2015-08-22

[Chatto]

Hey guys. I just got in from eternal weekend but I'll be posting a tournament report tomorrow at some point about the legacy world championship. Here is the list for now and I'll give you guys a report tomorrow after I recover(I got ninth place) http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/legacychamp15/top-32-decklists-2015-08-22

Congrats! Looking forward to your report!

[Croprot]

Ok guys here is my report from eternal weekend, but first some preliminary stuff. I walked into the event knowing that it was going to be large and there were going to be a variety of decks, in fact i drove down with a painter player (thank god i didnt see him or any of his ilk during this event) and felt fairly good about my chances given my choices to keep ghost quarter in the main, the ashen riders in the board for omni tell, as well as a zuran orb in the main to fend of the pesky burn players (which i didnt see all day, they must have known what i was up to). my final record was 9-2 and i lost my top 8 position to another lands player by 4% breaker points. so here it is round by round.

ROUND 1 Jeff Racan on OMNI TELL
I knew this deck was going to be here, its popular, linear, and very very strong. i lose game 1 as i should. i dont have a turn 2 kill and he opens with only islands into the show and tell. game 2 i rip into a hand that is a turn 2 choke and tabernacle and it sticks. he scoops a few turns later after a put a rishadan port on the field. Game 3 my opponent mulls to 5 and i go turn 2 trinisphere into the crop rotation for the 20/20. He scoops. RESULT 2-1 WIN

ROUND 2 Harry Corvese on SHARDLESS BUG
This was sweet sweet revenge after losing to this deck at the open in DC. game 2 i turn two a 20/20 and he scoops on the spot. Game 2 he mulls to 5 and i open up with a trinisphere on turn 3 off of taiga forest thespian stage which goes uncountered and drop the dark depths on turn 4. he scoops and my blood oath against shardless bug goes fulfilled. RESULT 2-0 WIN

ROUND 3 Brad Neikowski on RUG DELVER
Pretty typical round 3. i rip him in half with a turn 2 20/20 and he scoops game 1. Game 2 he puts 2 goose in play and gets them threshold very fast and i die quickly. Game 3 i assemble maze of ith punishing fire lock for his delvers and goyfs he has out and then i rip a dark depths off the top of my deck to end the game with the crop rotation in my hand. RESULT 2-1 WIN

ROUND 4 Devin Reilly on MIRACLES
This was the big bad slow game that i didnt want to play early on in the day. While the match is in my favor i dont want to spend my mental capital in an 11 round event this early. To add to this we get deck checked before we start which makes me think about did i register everything correctly. Game 1 he opens up with island into ponder and i put in land exploration which resolves into fetch. he lays down a plains which makes me sink in my chair as i have the dark depths thespian stage in hand and im dead sure he has a swords in his. i put the dark depths thespian stage in play to put him on tilt. he puts karakas into play which i meet with wasteland. 2 turns later he has top but no counter balance. i fish up a ghost quarter with crop rotation on his second main phase and eat his plains. he in response floats a white and gets an island with the ghost quarter search. he uses the island to top and then we go to his end step and i make a 20/20 and kill him the next turn. Game 2 was something out of a fairy tale for me. He puts counter balance up on turn to and for 11 turns doesnt flip a 2 cmc to respond to my punishing fires that i am using 1-2 times a turn. he finally finds a top and i k grip his balance in response. He had to swords his own snapcaster to stay alive an extra turn to try and dig farther into his deck. RESULT 2-0 WIN

ROUND 5 Alex Cadieux on MONO BLUE OMNI TELL
Whats worse than an omni tell player? An omni tell player who plays lotus petal and turn 1 kills me on game one. Alex wins the die roll and has git probe on turn 1, sees im on lands and goes land, petal, petal, S&T omniscience, enter the infinite, C wish, release the ants. I feel like im on the wrong end of a Mike Tyson fight after game one. Game 2 i almost had him, i had sphere of resistance and trinisphere in play he cast S&T for 4 mana and i didnt have an ashen rider to put into play. he drops omniscience and casts emrakul for 3 mana. i talked with him afterwards and it turns out there is a lands player he tests with and he has played this matchup quite a lot. I am demoralized but not dead and i tread on to round 6. RESULT 0-2 LOSS

ROUND 6 Mattew Long on U/R DELVER
Game 1 was very close he had me at 6 life and had 3 delver of secrets up and flipped and i had a 20/20. he swings putting me to 3 becuase i have a maze of ith. i dredged my loam at EOT with thicket and flipped another, off of that. my turn i dredge and get a punishing fire, kill his untapped maze delver and punch him for 20. Game 2 i turn 2 him and we go on to round 7. RESULT 2-0 WIN

ROUND 7 Louis Neiman on RUG DELVER
Im going to preface this round report with my own personal comments on it. I played against a very skilled and very technical player and the way in which i won this round should not make anyone think otherwise. Louis at any given point in the round had a very large amount of control of the game and was able to put significant pressure on me very early all three games we played. Game 1 he gets goose online very fast and rides it to victory. i was prepared for any other creature and 3 punishing fires in yard and 2 maze in play. Game 2 i have tabernacle in play and an active loam and exploration. i have a very technical turn with using thicket to bring back a loam to save it from a surgical on my upkeep. then i draw a second loam. i cast the first loam and it is countered. i cast a second and louis brainstorms and it eventually resolves. i dredge off thicket and cast a third loam on my turn and i got to his turn. on his turn he untaps with 2 goose online and two flipped delvers. he says "draw for turn" and i say "sure." he draws his cards and point out that the tabernacle wipes his board. he calls a judge over to clarify that i don't have to announce the triggers as he knows how tabernacle works but was unsure if i had to announce the triggers or not. I get a 20/20 on board a few turns later and he scoops. Game 3 he assembles an armada of goyf x2, insect aberation x2, and online goos x2 and plenty of lands to pay for the tabernacle i have on board. i am at 5 and playing tricks with my thespian stage and glacial chasm to try and stabalize. i go to 3 by paying the upkeep of chasm so i can assemble a 20/20 and try and get something going. This was the only game i saw my zuran orb and it was dredged into the yard. after i make a 20/20 i continue to play tricks with the thespian stages and chasm. at the end of one of my turns with less than 6 minutes left in round he asks me if the thespian stage i have out is a glacial chasm. i confirm that my only thespian stage on board is a glacial chasm as i sack the real one during upkeep after making a copy. He looks at his hand and untaps and draws for turn. i announced that he has missed his tabernacle triggers and i kill him the next turn with my 20/20. This was a grueling game for me and it showcased how uncertain our delver match up can be post board. RESULT 2-1 WIN

ROUND 8 Ed Demicco on GRIXIS DELVER
Game 1 i put a 20/20 on board and swing for the win. Game 2 i had the worst draws of my life. 6 turns. no lands. and nothing but a sphere of resistance and mox diamond draws. he surgicals my punishing fire in response to me trying to bring it back to my hand and kills me with delver. Game 3 he assembles 2 deathrites and 2 flipped delvers in the first 4 turns. i cannot compete with it and i lose. RESULT 1-2 LOSS

ROUND 9 Andy Markiton on MUD
I recognize andy from some of the vintage events that i go to (i play dredge in vintage, what a surprise) and he recognizes me. i am fairly demoralized from round 8 and i take some deep breaths to calm myself down. Andy is on the play game 1 and leads with cavern of souls naming construct. i look down at my hand and it is mox, mox, waste, waste, forest, exploration, loam. Game one ends after i demonstrate wasteland lock for 3 turns. game 2 begins with ancient tomb and chalice on 1. this is a little annoying but my hand is mox, tabernacle, port, loam, stage, depths, waste. we replay game 1 and my spirits are lifted again. RESULT 2-0 WIN

ROUND 10 Jun Yin Loke on OMNI TELL
Ive been playing magic for about 17 years. in that time ive seen some decks with almost all foils and then some beta or alpha to fill in the blanks. This was the first time ive seen a deck in all foils in an eternal format. every single card. judge promo when available and the glare from the lights actually made me think some cards were others. Game 1 i lose because i cant interact with him at all. Game 2 he goes S&T and i put down trinisphere. i follow with krosan grip on his omniscience on that same turn. on my turn i draw into ashen rider and cant help but smile. we do draw go for 2 turns because im sand bagging the ashen rider in my hand and i cant find a crop rotation to make the stage in play a 20/20. i also am porting him and wasting when appropriate because i also have a choke he knows about. he goes S&T again and i put in ashen rider. by this point he was at 14 and was on only 5 lands. he was aggressively fetching and probing throughout the game as he should be. he puts in omniscience and it gets RFG after he realizes he doesnt have the mana to do anything through the trini because of the porting and wasting. i go to my turn put him to 9 and then play the choke which he cant counter as he only has 2 mana up. Game 3 i land a trinisphere and sphere of resistance. he is stuck on lands and eventually has 8 lands up one of them being boseiju. he show and tells emrakul on his turn and i put in the depths to make the 20/20. EOT i waste his boseiju bring him down to 7 lands. i go to crop rotation on my turn with the intention of getting karakas and he knows this. he has a choice to make cunning wish to get the wipe away for his next turn and let the emrakul go back to his hand and die or force the crop rotation and block with the eldrazi. he goes to block because otherwise he is dead. he needs to draw a land next turn to stabilize and doesnt get one. RESULT 2-1 WIN

ROUND 11 Das Anuraag on MIRACLES
This was the final round and my opponent leads game 1 with island and i am dreading that i am going against omni tell again. he plays ponder and passes. i open with mana bond, he forces pitching snapcaster. i dont think anyone has ever said this in real life but i think to my self "thank christ its miracles." he plays another island and passes. i gamble on my turn for another mana bond and pitch the loam into the yard that was in my hand. mana bond resolved into port, maze, karakas, thespian stage. two turns go by of me tapping him down and him missing land drops and he scoops and we go to game 2. Game 2 was the text book way we want a miracles game to go. he mulls to 4 and i keep a grip of 7 with loam, thicket, choke, crop rotation, taiga, exploration, stage. he goes island pass. i draw the depths of the top and decide to sand bag it until i have some real control over the game. my turn one epxloration resolves and i drop the stage. my opponent goes plains pass. on my next turn i rip grove off the top and decide to put loam in the yard to bait something out. he attempts to surgical and i thicket in response. next turn i drop choke on him and crop rotate my extra forest out for boseiju. i get to do some uninteractive loaming for a few turns while he misses every land drop except a volc that i wasteland, i have the depths in play by this point and im waiting for a port or ghost quarter to show up. he finally taps his island for a brainstorm and then plays top off of his plains and i make a 20/20 at the end of his turn. RESULT 2-0 WIN

Every card in my deck played like i wanted it to except zuran orb. that will most likely turn into another fetch land for the deck if not something else. i was finding myself to be on the lucky end of a lot of events during the day; people missing land drops, people misplaying, people not knowing what ashen rider was (answer: its the nut). if you guys got questions or comments, shoot.

[barcode]

Hey folks, I made 24th at EW. Now that I'm home in front of a computer I can write a report. It'll be a little while but I'll write one up.

Grats to Croprot for the 9th place and missing top8 on breakers.

[Croprot]

Hey folks, I made 24th at EW. Now that I'm home in front of a computer I can write a report. It'll be a little while but I'll write one up.

Grats to Croprot for the 9th place and missing top8 on breakers.

Congrats on your finish Barcode. Look forward to seeing your report. i was happy to see so many lands decks in the top 32.

[Dice_Box]

With all the respect that is due, fuck you all for living in the US.... I am jelly right now. Also fucking good show. Hats off to the lot of you.

[iamajellydonut]

With all the respect that is due, fuck you all for living in the US.... I am jelly right now.

With all the respect that is due, fuck you. I am jelly.

That ever so clever and always fresh quip out of the way, I'd just like to cheer on all of the Lands players from this past weekend. It was everywhere you looked, and I'm only slightly ashamed to have plowed David Long in.

[barcode]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/legacychamp15/top-32-decklists-2015-08-22

Decklist (60):

4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire
3 Crop Rotation

4 Mox Diamond

4 Exploration
1 Manabond

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Taiga
3 Maze of Ith
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm

Sideboard (15)
4 Krosan Grip
2 Trinisphere
2 Primeval Titan
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Choke
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Round 1: Paul, UR Omnitell

We sit down at our table and realize neither of us can understand the head judge announcements. We can tell the HJ is making noise but not what that noise means. I win the die roll and then do something irrelevant and die. Paul is playing UR Omnitell and shows me in game 1 that he has Lotus Petal and Griselbrand. Okay, that's an older build.

Game 2 he casts Show & Tell and I put in Trinisphere and hope to draw the K-Grip or Choke but I don't hit anything. I am able to port him for several turns but it's getting to the point where he'll have 6 mana no matter what so I go for Primeval Titan and force him to Have It Or Die. He has Burning Wish for Void Snare and then I die.

0-1 [0-2]

Round 2: Ben with UG Enchantress

Ben is sitting next to his buddy (playing Manaless dredge). I win the die roll again and do some stuff. Ben starts off with Forest into one of the Wild Growth effects and gets ahead but can't find Words of Wind to do anything relevant and then I kill him.

Game 2 goes weird when I have a very mana light hand with Sphere of Resistance and Chalice of the Void on 1. I've already deployed 2 or 3 Exploration and then stumble more on lands. Ben is able to develop his board before I get the Chalice on the table and eventually is able to go over the top of me with Words of Wind. I return the Sphere instead of the Chalice and then rack up a bunch of GRVs as I: Gamble AND play Exploration. Ben's buddy catches the Exploration but it was too late to rewind the Gamble. I scoop my cards up since I needed the extra land drop to even have a chance on his turn. There's like 13 minutes left and I need the time to win. He tells me he could have gone infinite on his turn anyways.

Game 3 can be summarized by: "I have more Rishadan Ports than Ben has lands"

1-1 [2-3]

Round 3: Joe on BUG Delver

I win the die roll but it doesn't matter since Joe never sees more than 1 land in Game 1 and is severely punished for it.

Game 2 he has a very commanding lead with 2 DRS and a flipped Delver. He forces a Punishing Fire on that Delver and then immediately extracts it before I can get a Grove in play. Then he wastes my Thespian's Stage (no forest to copy ugh) and extracts that, too!

I keep the Delver at bay with a Maze of Ith and can't give the DRS fuel since I haven't seen a loam! He's been attacking with them chipping two points away at a time since his mana was pinned for Tabernacle payments. He Forces a Titan and then I'm left with 4 win conditions left in my deck (the second Titan and 3 Dark Depths going manual style).

Once I hit a Loam I'm able to bring back Wastelands and Tranquil Thickets (to protect the Loam). I start attacking his black sources while he's pinned on mana thanks to the Tabernacle.

On a critical turn he tries to DRS my Loam with the only shaman able to activate (due to lacking black sources) and I protect it with Thicket. He is disappointed with himself but plays on. He makes the same mistake when I'm at 6 life and then is out of black mana and unable to pay for his creatures through Tabernacle. He scoops up his cards and doesn't make me kill him manually (thankfully!)

2-1 [4-3]

Round 4: Scott on Burn.

I lose the die roll and in this matchup that matters a lot. He has the god hand of Goblin Guide into Eidolon. I take a risk when I'm at 16 life which will give me an opportunity to assemble the 20/20. I fetch my Forest and play an Exploration (going to 13 life). Then he hits me to 9 and then on my next turn I try to assemble Merit Lage. He responds with Price of Progress but I waste a land and only take 4 damage down to 5. He attacks, I block and ask if he has it. He does.

For game 2 I have an early 20/20.

Game 3 starts with Scott playing only Monastery Mentor. I smile inside. I play Mox Diamond, land and Sphere of Resistance. The sphere buys enough time for me to wipe him out with Merit Lage. He laments my draw.

3-1 [6-4]

Round 5: Elton on MUD

I win the die roll.

I don't have many notes from this one but I'm pretty sure I loam lock him in game 1 (except for the weirdo Darksteel Citadel) and game 2 is the more memorable one.

After he mulligans once he has Metalworker and powers out the old 7/10 Sundering Titan to kill a Taiga and a Thespian's Stage (copying forest). I eat a hit and he gets out a Platinum Emperion through Forgemaster! He's forced to pay the Tabernacle tax but can easily do so with Metalworker. I try and rebuy Punishing Fire with Grove to make this simple but Emperion makes his life total static! NO LIFEGAIN=NO P.FIRE. I had a Maze in play to deal with the Sundering Titan and then resolve Primeval Titan and fish up another Maze and make a 20/20 to block any attacks. I can't attack him for lethal and he can't attack me. We have a weird standoff with me attacking with my titan and mazing it before blocks so I can thin my deck. I need to draw one of my Krosan Grips or another Punishing Fire to end it. He has no lands to pay for Tabernacle so killing the Metalworker wraths him.

I find my Fire before he finds a Darksteel Citadel (which forces me to find a Grip).

4-1 [8-4]

Round 6: Tian on Merfolk

This is one of the few matches I lost the die roll.

I know this is a great match for me since I've played it a lot. I crush him easily game 1 after he forces my turn 1 Mox (??). He constantly laments how bad the matchup is for him throughout the match.

Game 2 I mulligan to 5 and he gets two TNN's online and I die.

Game 3 is the opposite: He mulligans to 5 and then I kill him.

5-1 [10-5]

Round 7: Kerry on Bant Thopter Sword

This could not possibly be a bad match. Their entire strategy is to go wide and Tabernacle naturally keeps that in check. All of their relevant creatures die to Punishing Fire. The only real way to win is with Jace or Humility (game 1). I win the die roll again, obviously.

That's basically how it went. He E-tutored for Humility but with such a greedy manabase (2 island, 1 plains) he never has enough lands to cast the powerful Enchantment (or planeswalker) once I go after his dual lands with Loam and Wasteland.

I make my 20/20 and dwindle his lands and then he scoops all of his cards up for game 2.

In game 2 he gets Rest in Peace in play and Needle on Stage but my hand is all gas. I've got him choked and he can't ever cast spells (his only non-island lands are plains and savannah). I keep porting fetches to induce use and then waste the land they get, or porting the basic. This keeps up until I have enough lands to port his only Plains, K-grip his Needle and make my 20/20 all in the same end step. (I imagine people behind me at like table 10 were wondering wtf I was waiting for). He dies.

6-1 [12-5]

Round 8: Michael with UB Omni

I win the die roll and do my thing. Then he plays Underground Sea and Thoughtseizes me. I could have used Crop Rotation from hand but I didn't want to sac the land and have it get dazed and then he play a fetchland to save the Sea from waste. He takes the rotation and then plays islands and duresses me. The duress tips me off to him being a combo deck. I had no idea what he was doing until the S&T. I couldn't assemble my combo fast enough or pin his mana down enough (he had almost infinite fetches).

For game 2 I sideboard my usual and get the 3-ball and Choke in play. He can't cast spells and then scoops to a couple ports but not before wishing for Surgical Extraction to see how I boarded.

Game 3 I take a mulligan to a great hand. Trinisphere, chalice. Unfortunately he has a lot of discard spells and I can't deploy my hate cards. Since I couldn't play my hate cards I had no way to interact with his combo and I died, thus making me dead for top 8 due to my round 1 loss.

6-2 [13-7]

Round 9: George with UG Infect

I don't have great notes for this match.

I lose the die roll and then lose a quick one to a double invigorated exalted infector.

Game 2 I have myself at 9 infect before I'm able to stabilize and kill him.

Game 3 I get to 6 infect before the game ends in my favour.

Either game 2 or 3 he leads with a forest and a Noble Hierarch. I have Tabernacle in my hand and I don't know if I should play it or a mana land. I didn't have acceleration so this lead off play would truly dictate the course of the game. I decide against Tabernacle and play a fetchland for Taiga in the hopes of Punishing Fire the Hierarch and following creatures.

I always felt a turn behind George. Mana acceleration is SO important in this match and it's important to have a delicate balance between ways to interact, mana to interact, and ways to win.

7-2 [15-8]

Round 10: Russell with BUG delver

As the day goes on my memory and notes fade. 11 rounds is a long time! Luckily these last few rounds are routine.

I win the die roll again.

Crush him game 1 and then game 2 I lose. Game 3 he extracts something from my deck, probably loams, and then I comment that my early opponent extracted my fires and stages and I still won. Like that match, I win this one.

8-2 [17-9]

Round 11: James with MUD

I don't know what he's on but the math is clear. If we ID we both are a lock for top 32 and $150. I offer the draw immediately and he says no.

And so I lose the die roll but win the game in easy fashion: He plays Ancient Tomb into Chalice for 1. I play a Wooded Foothills. He plays Trinisphere. I play Forest. He does something irrelevant. I play Thespian's Stage and copy Forest. He does something really irrelevant and then I make a 20/20. Casting spells is for suckers.

He takes game 2 after going infinite with Staff of Domination and Metalworker.

Before game 3 he offers the draw and I accept. We sign the slip 1-1-1 and write ID to prevent scorekeeper confusion (we really did play 2 games so they MUST be recorded) and explain it verbally just to be sure.

8-2-1 [18-10-1]

My record is good for 24th place and $150 credit with Card Titan.


A note on my 75 cards.

I never played Miracles so I never needed Boseiju. The 75 cards felt good. Bojuka Bog is disappointing in the main deck but I'm always glad it's there when I need it. It feels like the 23rd card in a limited draft: your deck is incomplete without it but you don't like playing it.

Both of my losses were to Omni and that highlights a problem. First, the deck is busted. Please ban Dig Through Time. Second, I need more hate cards. It is a winnable match but I need to access that win better. I hesitated before the tournament between the 4th Sphere of Resistance and the 2nd Titan. I expected to see decks where Titan would be great but maybe that second titan should be something else entirely. Or maybe they ought to be Terrastodons. Or maybe Choke, or Boil or Angel of Despair, or Trinisphere...

p.s. I live in Canada, not the US. ;-)

[haymaker18]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/legacychamp15/top-32-decklists-2015-08-22

Decklist (60):

4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire
3 Crop Rotation

4 Mox Diamond

4 Exploration
1 Manabond

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Taiga
3 Maze of Ith
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm

Sideboard (15)
4 Krosan Grip
2 Trinisphere
2 Primeval Titan
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Choke
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Round 1: Paul, UR Omnitell

We sit down at our table and realize neither of us can understand the head judge announcements. We can tell the HJ is making noise but not what that noise means. I win the die roll and then do something irrelevant and die. Paul is playing UR Omnitell and shows me in game 1 that he has Lotus Petal and Griselbrand. Okay, that's an older build.

Game 2 he casts Show & Tell and I put in Trinisphere and hope to draw the K-Grip or Choke but I don't hit anything. I am able to port him for several turns but it's getting to the point where he'll have 6 mana no matter what so I go for Primeval Titan and force him to Have It Or Die. He has Burning Wish for Void Snare and then I die.

0-1 [0-2]

Round 2: Ben with UG Enchantress

Ben is sitting next to his buddy (playing Manaless dredge). I win the die roll again and do some stuff. Ben starts off with Forest into one of the Wild Growth effects and gets ahead but can't find Words of Wind to do anything relevant and then I kill him.

Game 2 goes weird when I have a very mana light hand with Sphere of Resistance and Chalice of the Void on 1. I've already deployed 2 or 3 Exploration and then stumble more on lands. Ben is able to develop his board before I get the Chalice on the table and eventually is able to go over the top of me with Words of Wind. I return the Sphere instead of the Chalice and then rack up a bunch of GRVs as I: Gamble AND play Exploration. Ben's buddy catches the Exploration but it was too late to rewind the Gamble. I scoop my cards up since I needed the extra land drop to even have a chance on his turn. There's like 13 minutes left and I need the time to win. He tells me he could have gone infinite on his turn anyways.

Game 3 can be summarized by: "I have more Rishadan Ports than Ben has lands"

1-1 [2-3]

Round 3: Joe on BUG Delver

I win the die roll but it doesn't matter since Joe never sees more than 1 land in Game 1 and is severely punished for it.

Game 2 he has a very commanding lead with 2 DRS and a flipped Delver. He forces a Punishing Fire on that Delver and then immediately extracts it before I can get a Grove in play. Then he wastes my Thespian's Stage (no forest to copy ugh) and extracts that, too!

I keep the Delver at bay with a Maze of Ith and can't give the DRS fuel since I haven't seen a loam! He's been attacking with them chipping two points away at a time since his mana was pinned for Tabernacle payments. He Forces a Titan and then I'm left with 4 win conditions left in my deck (the second Titan and 3 Dark Depths going manual style).

Once I hit a Loam I'm able to bring back Wastelands and Tranquil Thickets (to protect the Loam). I start attacking his black sources while he's pinned on mana thanks to the Tabernacle.

On a critical turn he tries to DRS my Loam with the only shaman able to activate (due to lacking black sources) and I protect it with Thicket. He is disappointed with himself but plays on. He makes the same mistake when I'm at 6 life and then is out of black mana and unable to pay for his creatures through Tabernacle. He scoops up his cards and doesn't make me kill him manually (thankfully!)

2-1 [4-3]

Round 4: Scott on Burn.

I lose the die roll and in this matchup that matters a lot. He has the god hand of Goblin Guide into Eidolon. I take a risk when I'm at 16 life which will give me an opportunity to assemble the 20/20. I fetch my Forest and play an Exploration (going to 13 life). Then he hits me to 9 and then on my next turn I try to assemble Merit Lage. He responds with Price of Progress but I waste a land and only take 4 damage down to 5. He attacks, I block and ask if he has it. He does.

For game 2 I have an early 20/20.

Game 3 starts with Scott playing only Monastery Mentor. I smile inside. I play Mox Diamond, land and Sphere of Resistance. The sphere buys enough time for me to wipe him out with Merit Lage. He laments my draw.

3-1 [6-4]

Round 5: Elton on MUD

I win the die roll.

I don't have many notes from this one but I'm pretty sure I loam lock him in game 1 (except for the weirdo Darksteel Citadel) and game 2 is the more memorable one.

After he mulligans once he has Metalworker and powers out the old 7/10 Sundering Titan to kill a Taiga and a Thespian's Stage (copying forest). I eat a hit and he gets out a Platinum Emperion through Forgemaster! He's forced to pay the Tabernacle tax but can easily do so with Metalworker. I try and rebuy Punishing Fire with Grove to make this simple but Emperion makes his life total static! NO LIFEGAIN=NO P.FIRE. I had a Maze in play to deal with the Sundering Titan and then resolve Primeval Titan and fish up another Maze and make a 20/20 to block any attacks. I can't attack him for lethal and he can't attack me. We have a weird standoff with me attacking with my titan and mazing it before blocks so I can thin my deck. I need to draw one of my Krosan Grips or another Punishing Fire to end it. He has no lands to pay for Tabernacle so killing the Metalworker wraths him.

I find my Fire before he finds a Darksteel Citadel (which forces me to find a Grip).

4-1 [8-4]

Round 6: Tian on Merfolk

This is one of the few matches I lost the die roll.

I know this is a great match for me since I've played it a lot. I crush him easily game 1 after he forces my turn 1 Mox (??). He constantly laments how bad the matchup is for him throughout the match.

Game 2 I mulligan to 5 and he gets two TNN's online and I die.

Game 3 is the opposite: He mulligans to 5 and then I kill him.

5-1 [10-5]

Round 7: Kerry on Bant Thopter Sword

This could not possibly be a bad match. Their entire strategy is to go wide and Tabernacle naturally keeps that in check. All of their relevant creatures die to Punishing Fire. The only real way to win is with Jace or Humility (game 1). I win the die roll again, obviously.

That's basically how it went. He E-tutored for Humility but with such a greedy manabase (2 island, 1 plains) he never has enough lands to cast the powerful Enchantment (or planeswalker) once I go after his dual lands with Loam and Wasteland.

I make my 20/20 and dwindle his lands and then he scoops all of his cards up for game 2.

In game 2 he gets Rest in Peace in play and Needle on Stage but my hand is all gas. I've got him choked and he can't ever cast spells (his only non-island lands are plains and savannah). I keep porting fetches to induce use and then waste the land they get, or porting the basic. This keeps up until I have enough lands to port his only Plains, K-grip his Needle and make my 20/20 all in the same end step. (I imagine people behind me at like table 10 were wondering wtf I was waiting for). He dies.

6-1 [12-5]

Round 8: Michael with UB Omni

I win the die roll and do my thing. Then he plays Underground Sea and Thoughtseizes me. I could have used Crop Rotation from hand but I didn't want to sac the land and have it get dazed and then he play a fetchland to save the Sea from waste. He takes the rotation and then plays islands and duresses me. The duress tips me off to him being a combo deck. I had no idea what he was doing until the S&T. I couldn't assemble my combo fast enough or pin his mana down enough (he had almost infinite fetches).

For game 2 I sideboard my usual and get the 3-ball and Choke in play. He can't cast spells and then scoops to a couple ports but not before wishing for Surgical Extraction to see how I boarded.

Game 3 I take a mulligan to a great hand. Trinisphere, chalice. Unfortunately he has a lot of discard spells and I can't deploy my hate cards. Since I couldn't play my hate cards I had no way to interact with his combo and I died, thus making me dead for top 8 due to my round 1 loss.

6-2 [13-7]

Round 9: George with UG Infect

I don't have great notes for this match.

I lose the die roll and then lose a quick one to a double invigorated exalted infector.

Game 2 I have myself at 9 infect before I'm able to stabilize and kill him.

Game 3 I get to 6 infect before the game ends in my favour.

Either game 2 or 3 he leads with a forest and a Noble Hierarch. I have Tabernacle in my hand and I don't know if I should play it or a mana land. I didn't have acceleration so this lead off play would truly dictate the course of the game. I decide against Tabernacle and play a fetchland for Taiga in the hopes of Punishing Fire the Hierarch and following creatures.

I always felt a turn behind George. Mana acceleration is SO important in this match and it's important to have a delicate balance between ways to interact, mana to interact, and ways to win.

7-2 [15-8]

Round 10: Russell with BUG delver

As the day goes on my memory and notes fade. 11 rounds is a long time! Luckily these last few rounds are routine.

I win the die roll again.

Crush him game 1 and then game 2 I lose. Game 3 he extracts something from my deck, probably loams, and then I comment that my early opponent extracted my fires and stages and I still won. Like that match, I win this one.

8-2 [17-9]

Round 11: James with MUD

I don't know what he's on but the math is clear. If we ID we both are a lock for top 32 and $150. I offer the draw immediately and he says no.

And so I lose the die roll but win the game in easy fashion: He plays Ancient Tomb into Chalice for 1. I play a Wooded Foothills. He plays Trinisphere. I play Forest. He does something irrelevant. I play Thespian's Stage and copy Forest. He does something really irrelevant and then I make a 20/20. Casting spells is for suckers.

He takes game 2 after going infinite with Staff of Domination and Metalworker.

Before game 3 he offers the draw and I accept. We sign the slip 1-1-1 and write ID to prevent scorekeeper confusion (we really did play 2 games so they MUST be recorded) and explain it verbally just to be sure.

8-2-1 [18-10-1]

My record is good for 24th place and $150 credit with Card Titan.


A note on my 75 cards.

I never played Miracles so I never needed Boseiju. The 75 cards felt good. Bojuka Bog is disappointing in the main deck but I'm always glad it's there when I need it. It feels like the 23rd card in a limited draft: your deck is incomplete without it but you don't like playing it.

Both of my losses were to Omni and that highlights a problem. First, the deck is busted. Please ban Dig Through Time. Second, I need more hate cards. It is a winnable match but I need to access that win better. I hesitated before the tournament between the 4th Sphere of Resistance and the 2nd Titan. I expected to see decks where Titan would be great but maybe that second titan should be something else entirely. Or maybe they ought to be Terrastodons. Or maybe Choke, or Boil or Angel of Despair, or Trinisphere...

p.s. I live in Canada, not the US. ;-)

Omni-Show is obviously a big concern. I think there are many cards that are pretty good against the strategy, but you hit on the fact that you need to board in so many cards since you desperately need to have like 2 hate cards to have a chance (and we can't Brainstorm into them or even Enlightened Tutor for them).

I have some experience playing the 4-color loam list against Omni-Show: the 4x Chalice of the Void are pretty good (on 1 usually) if they don't already have everything in their hand. Heck, X=3 should knock them out completely if you find a 2nd one (no S&T and no Cunning Wish). Spheres are likely better than Thalia Guardian of Thraben and/or Ethersworn Canonist, but Gaddock Teeg is another interesting card--completely shuts off Dig Through Time/FoW. Choke really isn't stellar against them (it's fine, but useless off a cast Show/Tell).

The most important card to mention is SLAUGHTER GAMES (lights out when you name Show and Tell). I'm pretty certain it would be worth it to run 2-3 Slaughter Games in the board. It's slightly less amazing against a few other matchups (spheres are nicer to have vs storm), but you can randomly hit important cards vs several bad matchups (and if we're running 2x Ashen Rider, we're already into narrow land). I like the Ashen Rider tech and all, but you can die at instant speed. If it's your only piece of hate, you very well might still lose--or just get re-comboed the next turn. Slaughter Games ends the game on the spot. It does mean you can't dredge all that aggressively, so you are playing a slightly different game, but those are my thoughts. The problems with the Sphere effects is they get to (albeit slowly) keep casting their cantrips. And then you have to combo kill them as quickly as possible. With something like Chalice and Slaughter Games in your deck, you slow them to a crawl (no cantrips) and then you have more ways to close the game out. I would love to get others' thoughts (obviously an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and probably a Bayou would be considerations for the Slaughter Games plan).

[barcode]

Omni-Show is obviously a big concern. I think there are many cards that are pretty good against the strategy, but you hit on the fact that you need to board in so many cards since you desperately need to have like 2 hate cards to have a chance (and we can't Brainstorm into them or even Enlightened Tutor for them). I have some experience playing the 4-color loam list against Omni-Show: the 4x Chalice of the Void are pretty good (on 1 usually) if they don't already have everything in their hand. Heck, X=3 should knock them out completely if you find a 2nd one (no S&T and no Cunning Wish). Spheres are likely better than Thalia Guardian of Thraben and/or Ethersworn Canonist, but Gaddock Teeg is another interesting card--completely shuts off Dig Through Time/FoW. Choke really isn't stellar against them (it's fine, but useless off a cast Show/Tell). The most important card to mention is SLAUGHTER GAMES (lights out when you name Show and Tell). I'm pretty certain it would be worth it to run 2-3 Slaughter Games in the board. It's slightly less amazing against a few other matchups (spheres are nicer to have vs storm), but you can randomly hit important cards vs several bad matchups (and if we're running 2x Ashen Rider, we're already into narrow land). I like the Ashen Rider tech and all, but you can die at instant speed. If it's your only piece of hate, you very well might still lose--or just get re-comboed the next turn. Slaughter Games ends the game on the spot. It does mean you can't dredge all that aggressively, so you are playing a slightly different game, but those are my thoughts. The problems with the Sphere effects is they get to (albeit slowly) keep casting their cantrips. And then you have to combo kill them as quickly as possible. With something like Chalice and Slaughter Games in your deck, you slow them to a crawl (no cantrips) and then you have more ways to close the game out. I would love to get others' thoughts (obviously an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and probably a Bayou would be considerations for the Slaughter Games plan).

Paragraphs, dude.

I've thought about Slaughter Games but worry about the black mana. Right now there's only the moxes and Bojuka Bog. Urborg may not be good enough since it would be a one-of and which slot does it take? Bayou doesn't cast red our eight very important maindeck spells and is vulnerable to Wasteland so that's not a real ideal card. I'd rather retain the 3 Taiga since Punishing Fire is so important.

I would love to have access to black spells but fitting them may make the deck worse overall. :(

There's also the consideration to play Red Blasts. I've done it before and it's really good, however, it makes Chalice on 1 much worse. There's also the consideration for a Blue splash instead for Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce. Blue brings us back to our BUG heritage anyways and gives us access to Academy Ruins, Tolaria West and Intuition. But it's a different deck.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I've played blasts before in RUGx while trying to hedge against omni and it wasn't the worst but it still felt the same as other sideboard cards where you needed at least two of your sideboard cards in combination to make a difference. A single blast on it's own wouldn't turn things around.

I've never tested with slaughter games in Lands but I have a lot of doubts about it's effectiveness without massive manabase changes. I don't think a bayou and an urborg get you there consistently on turn 4 and that's already pretty much too slow for omni. It's a hugely powerful card when it works though so if anyone has any luck please share.

[Nikolai004]

Eternal Weekend was definitely a blast and I played two Lands mirror matches, it was not very lucky for me and I was quickly run over both times. I definitely need more practice in the mirror match I think.


Other than that I ended up going 5-2-1 with the draw due to a Reanimator player who took 5 minutes just to decide to lose win I did beat him. Slow play is a huge problem and I certainly have to stop being a nice guy and start calling my opponent's out on it and getting a judge involved if need be. My wins were nothing special, in fact they were pretty standard since 4 were the same deck, or at least near enough. Grixis splashing for deathrite using Young pyro to swarm just isn't a good strategy against The Tabernacle and wasteland. The 5th win was against an Esper stoneblade player who basically succumbed to the same fate and decided that giving me 20 life to keep removing my threat just wasn't a good idea. All in all I ended up 21st, not the best but certainly not horrible.


Highlight of the day was definitely teaching the second lands player some tricks with Thespian stage he wasn't aware of.

[haymaker18]

I've played blasts before in RUGx while trying to hedge against omni and it wasn't the worst but it still felt the same as other sideboard cards where you needed at least two of your sideboard cards in combination to make a difference. A single blast on it's own wouldn't turn things around.

I've never tested with slaughter games in Lands but I have a lot of doubts about it's effectiveness without massive manabase changes. I don't think a bayou and an urborg get you there consistently on turn 4 and that's already pretty much too slow for omni. It's a hugely powerful card when it works though so if anyone has any luck please share.

Bayou could also be Badlands, which may be more correct. My thinking was I'd rather cast the green spells early than worry too much about the late red spells (especially in this matchup, P-Fire is terrible), but it may be a toss-up as neither land casts everything that matters. 2 Wooded Foothills and 2 Verdant Catacombs can still fetch Badlands so there's no real damage to the manabase. The Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth doesn't help cast Slaughter Games a ton, so I'll concede that may not be worth it.

One Badlands plus the 4 fetchlands plus the Moxen should be enough to reliably cast Slaughter Games. Add 4 Crop Rotations to the mix and it's over 20% of the deck that is black mana or can find black mana. Percentages get a bit better with a Bojuka Bog and/or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. The Badlands could begin in the board if there's a worry about the mana in the maindeck (and there are certainly cuttable lands post-board against Omni-Show).

Turn 2-3 Slaughter Games are quite possible, so the benefits are worth a bit of work.

[haymaker18]

Paragraphs, dude.

I've thought about Slaughter Games but worry about the black mana. Right now there's only the moxes and Bojuka Bog. Urborg may not be good enough since it would be a one-of and which slot does it take? Bayou doesn't cast red our eight very important maindeck spells and is vulnerable to Wasteland so that's not a real ideal card. I'd rather retain the 3 Taiga since Punishing Fire is so important.

I would love to have access to black spells but fitting them may make the deck worse overall. :(

There's also the consideration to play Red Blasts. I've done it before and it's really good, however, it makes Chalice on 1 much worse. There's also the consideration for a Blue splash instead for Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce. Blue brings us back to our BUG heritage anyways and gives us access to Academy Ruins, Tolaria West and Intuition. But it's a different deck.

I'll test the red blasts too as they might very well be solid. My fear is that they will probably keep in almost all of their counters since they have a wish-board and not much to bring in. That means they can likely just win a counter war over our red blast since so few of our cards are actually counterable and/or threatening spells.

[L10]

Round 5: Elton on MUD

I win the die roll.

I don't have many notes from this one but I'm pretty sure I loam lock him in game 1 (except for the weirdo Darksteel Citadel) and game 2 is the more memorable one.

After he mulligans once he has Metalworker and powers out the old 7/10 Sundering Titan to kill a Taiga and a Thespian's Stage (copying forest). I eat a hit and he gets out a Platinum Emperion through Forgemaster! He's forced to pay the Tabernacle tax but can easily do so with Metalworker. I try and rebuy Punishing Fire with Grove to make this simple but Emperion makes his life total static! NO LIFEGAIN=NO P.FIRE. I had a Maze in play to deal with the Sundering Titan and then resolve Primeval Titan and fish up another Maze and make a 20/20 to block any attacks. I can't attack him for lethal and he can't attack me. We have a weird standoff with me attacking with my titan and mazing it before blocks so I can thin my deck. I need to draw one of my Krosan Grips or another Punishing Fire to end it. He has no lands to pay for Tabernacle so killing the Metalworker wraths him.

I find my Fire before he finds a Darksteel Citadel (which forces me to find a Grip).
That was one of the funniest and most memorable games I ever had playing against lands. I was really banking to find one of my two Voltaic Keys, so I can untap Metalworker on upkeep and start playing some Magic again, but it never came. lol

[barcode]

That was one of the funniest and most memorable games I ever had playing against lands. I was really banking to find one of my two Voltaic Keys, so I can untap Metalworker on upkeep and start playing some Magic again, but it never came. lol

Agreed! That was such a WEIRD game!! I was so surprised with the Grove of the Burnwillows not giving you life. Dang that Golem!

[Djehuti]

Hey all. Long time lurker, 1st time contributor here.

Went 3-4-1 drop at eternal weekend. Although I might not have the best record to boast, but I'll give a little tournament report anyway; forgive me for the lack of detail but i'm going by memory on this one.

Here's my list:
4x Mox Diamond
4x Exploration
4x Crop Rotation
4x Gamble
2x Manabond
4x Life From the Loam
4x Gamble

4x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Taiga
1x Forest
1x Verdant Catacomb
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Tranquil thicket
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Karakas
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Tabernacle at pendrell Vale
3x Maze of Ith
3x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

SB
1x Boseiju, who shelters all
1x Dark Depths
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Pithing Needle
1x Molten Vortex
3x Sphere of Resistance
2x Trinisphere
1x Choke
4x Krosan Grip

Round 1: Esper Stoneblade
G1: My important spells get forced or thoughtseized. Stoneforge Mystic finds a Jitte and Lingering souls hold it well, punishing fire can't come online once that thing gets counters. I lose this one and it took way too much time. Mental note: pick up the pace.
G2: I grip his batterskull, he tries to return it to his hand but I politely tell him that will not be possible, punish his lingering souls, bog his graveyard, make a lage and punch em for 20 and finish the job with a punishing fire to the face
G3: We have 8 minutes left, I'm not terribly confident that this game will end quick enough and I joke that we might both go the miracles bracket. We end up going to time and drawing as I could not push through all of the lingering souls tokens, navigated around a jace TMS, and wasteland and port didn't show up much in any of these games. This draw didn't feel too good.

Round 2: Jeskai Stoneblade?
G1: I see a bunch of basic plains and Islands with a sensei's divining top so I put him on miracles early. He makes a True Name Nemesis; I'm somewhat relieved. I aggressively loam into the combo kill.
G2: See Game 1

Round 3: Grixis Delver
G1: Delver beats and young pyromancer lay the smack down while I fail to find much of relevance.
G2: Punish your guys, find combo, nothing else to go over
G3: Now this was memorable. I keep a hand of 2 Crop rotations and some useful lands. He Gitaxian probes me and follows up with cabal therapy and suddenly my hand is a lot more embarrassing. I try to stabilize but 2x monastery swiftspear was too mucIh to handle. Lesson learned, I should have mulled that last one.

Round 4: Tin Fins
G1: I make a questionable keep with crop rotation but very few lands. I thought he was on reanimator when he dumped a griselbrand in the yard with entomb, I desperately attempted to crop rotation into bog but he had the daze for it. He then plays goryo's into triple lotus petal, draws 14, swings, and kills me with a tendrils for lots
G2: Side in all the sphere effects, chalice, pithing needle, the other DD, and none of it mattered. I draw 7 and theres a chalice and a crop rotation. I think it might get there and I dread the thought of mulling into jank when I could have done something relevant. I slam the chalice for 0 so casting tendrils off of free mana becomes harder. He fetches basics around my wastes and casts a goryo's on his own grisel. I respond with crop for bog, it resolves but he responds to the exile trigger with another instant speed reanimate spell and I lose to triple dark ritual into tendrils. Chalice was moot, should have mulled into a sphere.

Round 5: U/W death and taxes
G1: Plains into aether vial. I think I like where this is going. He deploys some stuff, I fetch up a tabernacle and force him to play all of his stuff through aether vial and only keep a modest posse of weenies. except one of those weenies was meddling mage, I don't like where this is going... punishing fire off line. he pressures me a bit but I rotate into a glacial chasm. I guess he knew there was no way to get around that with 2x exploration of field and loam in yard, he put his cards in a pile and we move to game 2
G2: plains into aether vial. good start. vryn wingmare, mom, meddling mage on PF, and phyrexian revoker on mox diamond round out the troop that would be the death of me
G3: 2 moms online and a wingmare provide him with a blocker that lage can't get through. I gamble for a pithing needle and it pays off. Mother of Runes becomes Eager Cadet and he puts his cards into a pile before lage even got to swing.

Round 6: Reanimator
G1: I felt bad about this one. He cantrips a bunch, all i see are underground seas, ponders, brainstorms, misty rainforests and polluted deltas. I put em on BUG control, very little give aways from this game. I make a 20/20 and end it.
G2: Its the same story as game 1, except for a thoughtseize on T1. He shows me his hand at the end and its 3 reanimates and 2 griselbrands, he just couldn't find a way to dump the fatties. Even as his opponent, I have to say that's a cruel set of draws.

Round 7: BUG delver
G1: I open with wasting him 3 straight turns but he continued to draw into lands, courtesy of nice brainstroms I suppose. I did my best to fight off delver and Co. but my glacial chasm couldn't buy me enough time and I feed the tarmogoyf.
G2: My opening 7 are Exploration, Exploration, Choke, Verdant Catacomb, Punishing Fire, Rishadan port, Mox Diamond. No matter what if I draw into a land I have a T2 choke so I open with fetching a forest and casting exploration. He Forces pitching stifle. I pass, he plays a deathrite, I rip a taiga off the top, play port, cast mox, it resolves, I pitch the taiga and cast Choke. IT RESOLVES! This is the first time I ever resolved it and I feel pretty comfortable behind this thing while he's forced to eat some stuff with his deathrite but he finds an abrupt decay for my choke. He untaps and casts a goyf and wastes my maze of ith... I dredge life trying to find another maze and flip a pithing needing into my yard which sped up the clock by a turn. I die with 2 punishing fires in my hand an not enough mana to punish the goyf to death.

Round 8: Miracles
Since we were out of contention for any prize, my friend and I agreed that we would drop after this round and finish out with some buying and trading. I play loose and carelessly since I'm salivating over foiling my sideboard and my opponent was pretty chill [as were all of my opponents, really great competitors all around].
G1: make a marit lage and swing though some entreat tokens over several turns. I get there
G2: He entreats twice and has a jace and I keep recurring lages. I made a poor sideboard call: pulled out some loams expecting rest in peace, and sided in molten vortex. Its a good thought but less loams is less ammunition for the vortex. It didn't matter, he surgically extracted my loams when my vortex was online anyways. I only killed one angel token with the vortex (at this point, I'm not sure how I feel about this card outside of blood moon matchups). I concede after some attrition and offer the game 3 concession so our crew can leave.

Some things I need to improve on are recognizing when to start the slow burn of PF, and when to crop rotate and what to search for. This deck has so many lines of play that I find it hard to decide between lands when I crop rotate, especially on defense.

On sideboard choices, I brought the fourth dark depths in pretty often, so I would consider moving it to the main board and side out a punishing fire or the karakas. Molten vortex has been lackluster but I can't bring myself to cut it since I feel more confident having a 3rd win condition in the sideboard since surgical effects on depths and PF totally stops this deck from winning. Pithing Needle was an all star as was K-grip. I've been considering bringing in CotV against any player that might run StP just to make the witch kill less cumbersome. I might not have played against ANT but my game against tin fins really shook me and i think I need at least 1 more sphere effect in the board, if not 2 or 3 for the fast combo matchups (max out Sphere of Resistance, 1 more 3Sphere, 1 more CotV? no idea what to take out and move around for it though).

Hopefully this info will be helpful for some of you going forward. I'll try to take better notes at the IQ this weekend in NJ.

[cab0747]

All,

I recently picked up, most of the cards needed for RG Lands online. Looking at a few of the recent lists, it looks like some have dropped sphere of resistance for 3ball. Can anyone explain the switch? Is it personal preference or does one have a specific use over the other.

Thanks in advance!

[Fl0do]

All,

I recently picked up, most of the cards needed for RG Lands online. Looking at a few of the recent lists, it looks like some have dropped sphere of resistance for 3ball. Can anyone explain the switch? Is it personal preference or does one have a specific use over the other.

Thanks in advance!

If Omnitell plays Show and Tell and drops Omniscience while you drop Trinisphere, they can't play a spell unless they have 3 mana up, so you have the time to play Krosan Grip. The same goes if they drop Emrakul, if they don't have 3 mana to play anything you can play Crop Rotation, Loam or Gamble to find Karakas without getting disrupted.

[barcode]

At FNM this week I'm going to be trying a few changes to see if it will help the Omni matchup.

The maindeck loses a Tranquil Thicket and 2 Taiga and the Bojuka Bog. Add in a Bayou, Badlands, Urborg, Riftstone Portal. Fetches become Verdants or Wooded Foothills

Sideboard cut all the artifacts and add 3 thoughtseize, 4 slaughter games, 2 bob. keep the 4 k-grips, choke and boseiju.

We'll see if these cards are good enough. So far in goldfishing the mana post-board is awful.

[Chatto]

Hmmm, I'm not sure I like where you are going. Don't see the upside of your proposed changes at all. Looks like different deck all together. Also, combo in different shapes is still a deck :smile:

[haymaker18]

At FNM this week I'm going to be trying a few changes to see if it will help the Omni matchup.

The maindeck loses a Tranquil Thicket and 2 Taiga and the Bojuka Bog. Add in a Bayou, Badlands, Urborg, Riftstone Portal. Fetches become Verdants or Wooded Foothills

Sideboard cut all the artifacts and add 3 thoughtseize, 4 slaughter games, 2 bob. keep the 4 k-grips, choke and boseiju.

We'll see if these cards are good enough. So far in goldfishing the mana post-board is awful.

I think my experimental board would be something like this:

3x Sphere of Resistance
3x Trinisphere
1x Badlands
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All (you want this vs Miracles, but it seems only OK against anything else...would almost rather have a 3rd Slaughter Games)
2x Slaughter Games
4x Krosan Grip

Against Omni-Tell, I would cut something like:

3x Maze
1x Tabernacle
4x Punishing Fire (maybe you leave 1x in for an additional win condition, but it's pretty bad here)
2x Manabond (you can't afford to discard your hate cards in this matchup)
1x Wasteland (maybe 2...pretty bad against all the islands)
Karakas is only relevant if they S&T in an Emrakul, but it probably has to stay
Tranquil Thicket isn't great, but I do think you want more insurance against getting your Loams Surgical'd. Also you don't want to cut too many lands for things like Mox Diamond.


In come:
3x Sphere of Resistance
3x Trinisphere
2x Slaughter Games
1x Badlands
(maybe 1x Boseiju)
3x Krosan Grip

I've been able to cast a good number of Slaughter Games on turn 3 (thanks Gamble). If they have the nut draw, sure that's too slow, but if they do have the nuts, your Sphere effects and/or Grip are going to have to do the heavy lifting anyway. It feels like we've got game though...

[gigapatrick]

Congrats to barcode and Croprot for their good finishes at Eternal Weekend. While that was going on, I was piloting Lands at my local store. Here's the list and the report:

Main

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
3 Fetch
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Tabernacle
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire
2 Manabond

Board

4 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Trinisphere
2 Choke
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Karakas

I've adopted the now-widespread choice of using a playset of Depths main, moved the Karakas to the board (since in these months and months I've played Rg Lands I've only faced Sneak and Show once), and switched the three Thorns previously in the board to three Trinisphere. I'd probably play four, but at my local there are a number of Storm players and I decided to hedge that I was still more likely to see it than Omni-Tell. The one Courser should have been a third Choke, but I couldn't find a third one and decided I'd go with the closest thing Rg has to a Dark Confidant. I debated making room for the fourth Punishing Fire main, which I used to run and which now the big names are running, but if Miracles and Omni-Tell are the two decks to beat right now, then the fourth Punishing Fire doesn’t do that much, and I figured that the matchups where I want Fire (Death and Taxes, Delver, to a lesser extent Elves) have always seemed very winnable to me without a fourth copy.

Round One: Pyromancer Delver (I didn't see any black during this match, so I'm not calling it Grixis.)

Game One: Delver starts off strong with a flipped Delver, but I've got good acceleration and a Loam into a Maze of Ith. He starts bolting and otherwise burning me, but I'm stabilizing with the Maze and the Punishing Fire I dredge. Both Pyromancers he plays die, and though I'm at four life when I win, I feel like I've crushed him.

I board in: 1 Courser of Kruphix
I board out: 1 Crop Rotation

I reckon that against Delver, our strongest matchup, we should be boarding very little, and the two Manabonds, which I normally board out, struck me as quite strong, allowing for a kind of Force-this-or-you-probably-lose type of play, considering that resolving one would swing the tempo of the game heavily in my favor. I wanted at least one more out to a Surgical or other piece of graveyard hate, so I dropped one Crop for the Courser. Crop is very, very good, but in some situations, if it gets countered, you can be left way behind.

Game Two: I start off strong again with Mox and Loam, but Delver has to fumble around with cantrips before he can put any action into play. He gets me down to ten life before I Crop Rote into Tabernacle and Waste his only land, killing one flipped Delver and an unflipped Delver. At this point, I have Loam in the yard, the ability to replay it, and he has no permanents on board. He should concede, but he doesn’t. About three turns later, when he has a single basic and I Fire the third Delver he plays, he concedes.

1-0

Round Two: The Mirror

Game One: While I’ve seen my opponent before the tournament testing his Lands deck (so I know what type of hand I should keep against him), my opening grip is good against pretty any non-combo deck: Exploration, Gamble, Fire, a bunch of good utility lands. My opponent starts with a Mox Diamond Loam, but my Exploration is just too fast for him. He dredges a turn earlier than me, but I dredge into Waste and Port and he doesn’t. I play a bunch of Lands per turn, Waste him, Port him, and make the token on my turn so he can’t find a Wasteland to break it up. This play was, of course, weak to Crop Rotation into Karakas, but going for it as soon as possible and making him have it seemed like the best plan. He didn’t have it.

I board out: 1 Punishing Fire, 1 Glacial Chasm
I board in: 1 Courser of Kruphix, 1 Karakas

Again, I kept in Manabond since comboing off as quickly as possible should, I think, be the plan in the mirror. In retrospect, and at the end of the match seeing how my opponent boarded, I think I should have taken out Tabernacle instead of Chasm.

Game Two: Again, I have a near perfect hand, including Mox, Loam, Exploration, and good lands. I worry about Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog, but I can’t really mull the really good hand out of fear. If he has it, then he has it. My opponent has Mox into Loam, but I have Mox into Loam into Exploration, and again he simply can’t keep up. He slows things down for me with two Mazes of Ith, but after making the token, I port one Maze at the end of his turn and Waste the other before attacking.

2-0

Round Three: Grixis Delver

Game One: Fairly textbook game against a Delver variant. Maze of Ith slows his aggro plan down until Waste and Fire clean up his board. He’s burnt toast.

I board out: 1 Crop Rotation
I board in: 1 Krosan Grip

I have to admit: before the tournament, my Grixis Delver opponent was talking about bringing in Pithing Needle against Lands to name either Stage or Maze of Ith. Lo and behold, I find myself sitting across from him so I decided I should board in a Grip as an out to Needle.

Game Two: Delver leads with a Deathrite Shaman, and I lead with land, Mox Diamond. I have a Punishing Fire in my hand, and I’m uncertain if I should just Fire the Shaman and risk Daze or Force, or if I should try to wait and see if I can Fire at a safer time. Not having Grove in my hand but having Loam, I decide to just go for it. The Shaman dies. After this, Delver has to cantrip a lot either to find a threat or to set up a delve threat. My dredges aren’t doing too much, and Delver lands a Gurmag Angler. At this point, I have three lines: I can try to Waste him out with Tabernacle as cleanup; I can drop Maze and stall until I can combo; or I can simply go for the combo. My opponent has four lands in play and I have no Exploration, so I decide that I can’t try to Waste him out and reasonably expect to win. I can go for the combo, but not knowing if has Submerge or something like it, I feel that this is unsafe and it could end up with me losing two lands and being at a perilously low life total. So I decide that using Maze is the safest route. Of course it gets Wasted and I get beat down to fifteen life. Next turn, with two Moxen in play and a Forest, I attempt to Loam back the Maze. Loam gets countered. I have a Stage and another Loam in hand, so I drop Stage and Loam back Maze. Of course, with Stage in play and Depths in hand, I know that next turn I’ll be playing Depths and making a witch rather than playing a Maze. Delver hits me down to ten with Gurmag, and I make a witch on my turn. Delver cantrips for an answer, finds and plays his Pithing Needle too late. He doesn’t have Submerge or any to return the witch, so I send her flying at him.

3-0

Round Four: TES

My final round opponent is undefeated like me, so we split for thirty bucks store credit each. We play for fun.

3-0-1

Game One: With all the cantripping that’s going on, I know my opponent is on some storm variant. On my fourth turn (just before his fourth), I have two lines: I can Waste his only land in play, or I can play Depths and threaten to kill him. I decided on Depths. Wrong move. With his one Volcanic Island, TES untaps and kills me.

I board out: 2 Manabond, 3 Punishing Fire, 2 Maze of Ith
I board in: 3 Trinisphere, 4 Sphere of Resistance

Here I board out the Manabonds because I’m boarding in a lot of unrecurrable spells that I’d prefer not to discard.

Game Two: I have a good hand with two mana-producing hands, one Trinisphere, an Exploration, and a couple non-mana-producing lands. I have to draw the third mana land off the top, but I can’t mull this hand. I just have to gamble that I’ll draw the third mana producer, which I do. I play Trinisphere turn two, slowing my opponent down greatly. I eventually draw a Wasteland, and when I go to Waste one of my opponent’s three lands on my main phase, he Decays my Trinisphere. Now that I can pay one for Gamble, and having six cards in hand, I Gamble for another Trinisphere and play it. My opponent topdecks another land, putting him at three again, and right as I go to Waste him for a second time, he Chain of Vapors the Trinisphere. Since I’ve Loamed this turn, I don’t have the mana to play it again. For my second land, I can either play another Wasteland, which would take out his Volcanic Island, or I can drop a Port to tap his basic Swamp during his upkeep. I opt for the Port and tap the Swamp. He only has one turn to go off before I play the Trinisphere again and, thinking about his lines, says he’s two mana short one way and one mana short the other way. He concedes.

Game Three: I keep a good hand with Mox, Sphere, Loam, two Crop Rotes, and lands. TES Duresses my Sphere away, and so I’m stuck on Loam. Eventually I draw a Gamble. So again I have two lines. With five cards in hand, I can Gamble for a Sphere effect and hope I keep it, or I can threaten the witch and leave up Crop Rote into Bog if necessary. Of course, TES knows about my Crop Rote so he storms out without using the graveyard. Twice I threaten the witch and twice I lost. Should have gone for the Sphere.

Peace out.

[Layalouhamesh]

Congrats to barcode and Croprot for their good finishes at Eternal Weekend. While that was going on, I was piloting Lands at my local store. Here's the list and the report:

Main

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
3 Fetch
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tranquil Thicket
2 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Tabernacle
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire
2 Manabond

Board

4 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Trinisphere
2 Choke
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Karakas

Never had mana problem with only 3 fetch lands? I guess the 3rd Thicket stabilizes the outs a bit.

[Chatto]

Three fetch is enough, never had a problem. I would think three Thicket is a bit much.

Regarding the fourth DD: do people think it is really neccesary? Karakas could be easily be mixed to SB, so making room is pretty easy.
Regarding Spheres/ 3Ball: I like the 3/3 split, do people feel the same?

[Dice_Box]

I don't think you need it, it's really dead on it is own. 3 is a good number for Depths on my view. Plus, that other one off card can be really helpful. Thinking about testing a second Tabernacle in that slot.

As for the sideboard, I can't say. Having too much hassle with Reanimator locally so my sideboard is all screwed up to deal.

[Layalouhamesh]

I was thinking on something recently: Dark Confident could be really nice in the deck, creating a free drawing engine since most cards are either lands or 1-2 CMC.
Also, some of the black mana is already given by Bojuka Bog, and it would allow some creatures recursion with a Volrath's Stronghold.

The main drawbacks I see are the following:
- We become affected by opponent's anti creatures.
- Tabernacle becomes less powerfull.
- Necessity to introduce a third color, thus no less than 4 fetches.

For these reasons, I don't know if it's worth trying. Any opinion on that?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

People have tried confidant before since it's explored territory being fairly common in RUGx Lands sideboards. It's nice but it doesn't help with the current problem matchups and the ever-present combo in the RG version means that there is less pressure to get card advantage going when the graveyard is shut off like in the RUGx build.

It's normal play pattern in Lands is to be in the sideboard and brought in games 2-3 when they've boarded out spot removal that can't deal with Marit Lage.

[Chatto]

I thought about Bob as well, but came to the following conclusion:

- you would need to fit in at least two-three black manasources.
- I see Bog as gravehate first, and as a manasources second.

So, what to cut?

I never answered that question, because I couldn't cut anything (besides Thicket... maybe) I think Bob really shines in Turbo Depths and RUGx Lands, but just not in RGCL.

[gigapatrick]

Regarding the fourth DD: do people think it is really neccesary?

It isn't necessary, no--but my thinking is that if Karakas in this meta is not a necessity main deck, then you should replace it with the fourth Depths, since that means you'll be able to combo a non-zero percent more often.

[Croprot]

Quick congrats to everyone on making the decks to beat page. Cheers all around

[barcode]

Quick congrats to everyone on making the decks to beat page. Cheers all around

Happy to do my part to bring R/G lands back to be a deck to beat. Good job to yourself for the same. ;)

[Dice_Box]

If I am reading the numbers right, it apears we will be staying here more than a month this time.

[Chatto]

Congrats everybody! Let's make things last as long as possible!

EDIT:
It isn't necessary, no--but my thinking is that if Karakas in this meta is not a necessity main deck, then you should replace it with the fourth Depths, since that means you'll be able to combo a non-zero percent more often.

I decised to try Bog in the main. It gives an ot pre-board against Storm-combo, which is still big in my meta.

[KIP_NZ]

Congrats everybody! Let's make things last as long as possible!

EDIT:

I decised to try Bog in the main. It gives an ot pre-board against Storm-combo, which is still big in my meta.

Gave me G1 vs Mana less dredge at the weekend as well.


Played our legacy monthly for the first time at the weekend. On RG Lands again as I have been for most of this year (2013 was BUG Lands, 2014 Aluren and now RG Lands). I sort of won it as my opp scooped to me in the finals because he had borrowed his deck from me and he wanted lunch (He’s a Gold Pro so the credit difference didn’t mean anything to him)

4 Mox Diamond
4 Gamble
4 Exploration
4 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Taiga
3 Maze of Ith
3 Dark Depths
4 Crop Rotation
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Manabond


4 Krosan Grip
3 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Choke
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Dark Depths

R1: Manaless Dredge
G1:
I lose the roll, he says “I’ll take the draw” and I go “$%&#” this is a horrid match up for me without crop rotation. I look at my opener, 3 punishing fire, port and 2 crop rotations and some other cards…. Only 1 land and no green source. That’s not a keeper. Down to 6.
I keep a 6 with no loam but with crop rotation and 2 green sources, play T1 fetch and pass. He draws, probes me, and then discards Grave Troll (I later find out he kept a no dredger hand and got lucky drawing the probe then the troll off it). We start playing back and forth and then EoT my 3rd turn he activates Phantasmagorian, holds priority and discards again. I pause him then and crop rotate for the main deck Bojuka Bog exiling his yard. This leaves him dead to rights and I naturally assemble stage / depths 2-3 turns later and my new shiny Marit Lage token visits him.
SB
-4 Wasteland
-1 Karakas
+4 Sphere of Resistance
+1 Dark Depths
I was unsure if taking out my Maze of Ith’s for 3balls is also correct to protect my hand / crop rotations. I assumed (correctly) that the first and every cabal therapy would be naming Crop Rotation and that the sphere’s would protect them / shut off dread return.
G2:
The deck cutting gods are happy with me. Once again I fan open my starter, CR, depths, sphere and 2 green sources & another land? T1 play is just a land which leaves me with a fetch untapped as he goes draw / discard grave troll. I drop another land and play the sphere which causes him to sigh. He dredges into narcomeba, thug and cabal & passes back (I think there might have been a street wraith here as well).
I draw for my turn and bink get stage to go along with the depths still in my hand, I proceed to just make my land drops and I think during his 3 or maybe 4th upkeep I bog him with Ichorid triggers on the stack. He has 1 Narcomeba in play when the big guy comes but the extra turn of chump blocking can’t save him.

1-0 (2-0)

R2: Maverick
My best match up in the room as far as I can see.

G1: Not much to say here, Maze of ith holds him off, Tabernacle eats his mana & then Loam finds me stage / depths.
-1 Karakas
-1 Manabond
-1 Bog (this was a mistake)
-1 Stage
+4 Grip
My thinking here is he’s bringing in RIP and this is going to be a longer game hence cutting a stage and the manabond. Bog and Karakas didn’t seem relevant (note bog would have been super relevant to search for to reduce his knights)

G2:
He goes land -> hirach
I go mox diamond, exploration, land, exploration, land, land, loam (getting my fetch and the discarded land) and then surgical’s it, his 1 of in his entire deck…. Needless to say it’s only a matter of time before he kills me.

G3:
Right I shuffle up and draw, natural stage / depths in the opener, CR and exploration with a Loam. This is a keep. To cut a long story short I get to like turn with stage / depths on board and him with 1 untapped mana (thanks Tabernacle!), I have CR’d for port last turn to tap him down & the mana spare to port him main, stage him EoT. He says “your turn” and I just make a 20/20. He immediately plows it. Le sigh what a punt. Well this is where it goes downhill. He rips running cards to waste my tabernacle and destroy my exploration. Pretty soon I’m on the ropes and staring down a pair of 10/10 knights. Needless to say they do the business on the last turn, I’m on 11 can block 1 with Marit but he finds a wasteland to waste his own land to make his unblocked knight a 13/13.
1-1 (3-2)

R3: Burn
I’ve played this guy a few times, he always plays burn, loves the deck so both us knew what to expect when we sat down opposite each other.
G1:
I assemble a T3 stage/depths off an exploration T1 and 2 helpful Goblin Guide triggers. I kill him at 2.

-3 Wasteland
-1 Karakas
-1 Manabond
+4 Sphere
+1 Depths
I figure here I just need to race him and that a sphere would be real helpful
G2:
I mull to 6 and then to 5. At this point in time I know I’m dead most likely but I’ll try. He opens with suspended riff bolt and T2 eidolon of the great revel, I am forced to gamble for Pfire to kill it and he then drops a T3 eidolon which seals my doom. I take 4 to kill the first one but can’t kill the 2nd in time.
G3:
I get a solid opener with Loam, gamble and the natural combo but that’s a T5 play. I decide to go all in on the race and T1 gamble for exploration (wish I still had manabond in my deck!) and luckily he rolls and takes a maze of ith. He opens with Guide which gives me a land, T2 I play exploration, drop stage and another land to cast loam. His T2 he drops eidolon of the great revel which is fine by me, I’m not casting any more spells. T3 I drop depths and get lucky as he has amassed enough creatures to kill me with his burn in hand (I started his T3 at 13!) and I block the eidolon leaving me on 2 with the big fellow and would kill on the crack back. He reaches across the table with the hand (and his 1 untapped mana) and shows me his 2 fetch lands!

2-1 (5-3)

Rd4:
This is a 4 round event with cut to T8 and I’m seeded 4th currently, myself and Alex (3rd) decide that if we shake here we’ll end up with 3rd 4th most likely unless exactly the 9th guy wins and leap frogs us to take 3rd. Well for some reason the guy in 6th place decides he wants to be on the play and makes table 3 play it out. We end up in but in 5th and 6th place (the 9th guy won) and the “want to play guy ends up 3rd”
2-1-1 (5-3)

QF:
I end up in 6th so end up vs Omni-Tell “On the play” guy. My worst match up…. Here we go.
G1:
I have nothing going on, I die on like T5 after resolving loam a couple times
-4 Wasteland
-3 Maze
-1 Tabernacle
-3 Pfire
+4 Sphere
+3 3ball
+2 Choke
+1 Boseiju
+1 Depths
So many bad cards! I considered cutting the bog, remain pfire, mana bond & karakas for the grips as well but decided I wanted to race.
G2:
I look at my hand, choke, loam, mox and lands. I open with mox & port. He goes island, go & I tap him down. My T2 I put choke on the stack and he rocks backward and sighs sure. He then plays ancient tomb which I proceed to start tapping down while building a fist full of lands off loam. Pretty soon I gamble for Exploration (I have a 3ball in hand just in case of SnT) and go into overdrive. When I have 3 stages in play all as ports (just in case!) The depths rolls off and he scoops.

G3:
I make no changes and the shuffle gods once again smile on me. I open a hand with sphere, loam and 3ball and I actually draw choke. I open with mox sphere (fow), T2 choke (fow) and then am able to start building ports & get down an exploration while he’s cantripping etc. I keep holding the trinisphere in my hand to lay when he casts show n tell, not risking it getting countered. Pretty soon I assemble the combo and he wishes for trickbind as he thinks he can counter the trigger (sorry dude as per discussions post this game you should have got wipe away) and I make a 20/20. One thing that’s notable as I opened with loam in my hand but never needed to actually cast it so I didn’t want him wishing for surgical.

3-1-1 (7-4)

SF:
My burn opponent from R3 again
G1:
This went long, crazy long. I had a T1/2 manabond and I ended up crop rotating for Chasm when I was on 11. On the turn I paid 4 life (leaving me on 5) to maintain it I drew the loam and was able find a stage to copy the chasm. Next turn I paid the 2 life and loamed back chasm into play. Next turn I paid my final upkeep of chasm and loamed into thicket and another stage therefore putting myself into the position of having 2 stages which would allow me to infinitely maintain the stages. Note I had manabond in play so putting 4-6 lands per turn into play wasn’t a problem. Opp scoops after confirming with the judge he can keep a chasm in play for ever.

Same as above lets go racing!
G2:
I actually don’t remember this game and I don’t appear to have a life total page for it. I’m pretty sure no hate was used and I just got there.
What I do remember is when I assembled the combo I was facing down Eidolon and 2 swift spears and a suspended rift bolt when I was on 7 life. I knew I was dead on board but I had to play it out hoping for a missed trigger / nothing played from hand.
Upkeep – rift bolt, he unsuspends and casts it targeting me. Down to 4
He doesn’t announce his swift spear triggers (!)
Draw and attack
I make a 20/20 and block the Eidolon. I say to him “I take 2?” His reply was “Yes you will when combat damage resolves” and then extends the hand and shows me 2 lands again (see R3)

4-1-1 (9-4)

Finals:
I loaned Joe my Omni-tell deck during round 1 (he took a R1 match loss after arriving in the store to find someone to go to lunch with and everyone was playing) and then he had gone 5-0 since then with a deck he didn’t know. Joe is a really good player, was Gold last year, captain of the NZ team at WMC & playing my hardest match up. Needless to say I wasn’t looking forward to this but he just walks up to me, hands me my deck and says “I scoop to you for loaning me the deck & I’m going to go get lunch”

5-1-1 (11-4) (sort of)

Sweet, I get the win and the store credit which I immediately blow on another Guru land for my deck :cool:

[barcode]

R2: Maverick
My best match up in the room as far as I can see.

G1: Not much to say here, Maze of ith holds him off, Tabernacle eats his mana & then Loam finds me stage / depths.
-1 Karakas
-1 Manabond
-1 Bog (this was a mistake)
-1 Stage
+4 Grip
My thinking here is he’s bringing in RIP and this is going to be a longer game hence cutting a stage and the manabond. Bog and Karakas didn’t seem relevant (note bog would have been super relevant to search for to reduce his knights)

G2:
He goes land -> hirach
I go mox diamond, exploration, land, exploration, land, land, loam (getting my fetch and the discarded land) and then surgical’s it, his 1 of in his entire deck…. Needless to say it’s only a matter of time before he kills me.

G3:
Right I shuffle up and draw, natural stage / depths in the opener, CR and exploration with a Loam. This is a keep. To cut a long story short I get to like turn with stage / depths on board and him with 1 untapped mana (thanks Tabernacle!), I have CR’d for port last turn to tap him down & the mana spare to port him main, stage him EoT. He says “your turn” and I just make a 20/20. He immediately plows it. Le sigh what a punt. Well this is where it goes downhill. He rips running cards to waste my tabernacle and destroy my exploration. Pretty soon I’m on the ropes and staring down a pair of 10/10 knights. Needless to say they do the business on the last turn, I’m on 11 can block 1 with Marit but he finds a wasteland to waste his own land to make his unblocked knight a 13/13.
1-1 (3-2)

If Maverick is your "best match" I would have been very unhappy. I consider Maverick to be a very poor matchup. They have tools to assemble Knight of the Reliquary and Scavenging Ooze (and Thalia is no hack) to disrupt our game plan. Knight is often unkillable with Punishing Fire and Ooze eats everything from our yard. I do not like this matchup one bit.

I played Maverick against 4 colour lands of old (before the Legend rule change) and it wasn't even hard. He used EE to kill my 2 drops but I ate it with Ooze in response (EE's cost is 2, sac) so he couldn't recur it anymore. Knight just wasted his key lands and grew out of control. GSZ acted as multiple copies of key cards.

The match is probably better for our blue-brethren since they have access to Explosives.

Congrats on your finish. That looks like a very hostile environment for lands!

[The_Dingo]

I'm never too excited to play lands against anything with Knight of the reliquary, scavenging ooze, Deathrite shaman, and several basic lands. It's always an ordeal, but surprisingly most maverick pilots that I know seem to think the MU should be in our favor.

I really like having bog against maverick and 4 color loam. Shoot KoTR with a P fire, then bog them to finish it off, and there's no way to save the Knight.

[KIP_NZ]

I'm never too excited to play lands against anything with Knight of the reliquary, scavenging ooze, Deathrite shaman, and several basic lands. It's always an ordeal, but surprisingly most maverick pilots that I know seem to think the MU should be in our favor.

I really like having bog against maverick and 4 color loam. Shoot KoTR with a P fire, then bog them to finish it off, and there's no way to save the Knight.

I saw many knights but didn't see ooze and he was traditional GW Maverick. Note as I said, I had the win rolled up G3 and I Punted it.....

[Nikolai004]

Has anyone tried out Worm Harvest recently? Maybe even dropping the fourth Punishing Fire to run it in the main? My recent experience with Miracles has left me wanting a card in the main deck for if the game goes long. I'm not sure if it's good against any other match ups, maybe the mirror and Death and taxes but I'm sure it's negligible.

[Chatto]

4 Mox Diamond
4 Gamble
4 Exploration
4 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Taiga
3 Maze of Ith
3 Dark Depths
4 Crop Rotation
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Manabond


4 Krosan Grip
3 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Choke
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Dark Depth

(...)

5-1-1 (11-4) (sort of)

Congrats on your finish. How is 3/3 Grove/ Taiga working out? Did you never missed the second Manabond? Would you swap the fourth DD for Karakas?


Has anyone tried out Worm Harvest recently? Maybe even dropping the fourth Punishing Fire to run it in the main? My recent experience with Miracles has left me wanting a card in the main deck for if the game goes long. I'm not sure if it's good against any other match ups, maybe the mirror and Death and taxes but I'm sure it's negligible.

Never used it, can't say I'm eager to try it out either.

[barcode]

Congrats on your finish. How is 3/3 Grove/ Taiga working out? Did you never missed the second Manabond? Would you swap the fourth DD for Karakas?

I can't speak for KIP but I have never missed the second Manabond (I recently cut it; placed 24th at Champs with just one). It's awesome in the mirror and that's basically it. I always sideboard it out.

[Djehuti]

Has anyone tried out Worm Harvest recently? Maybe even dropping the fourth Punishing Fire to run it in the main? My recent experience with Miracles has left me wanting a card in the main deck for if the game goes long. I'm not sure if it's good against any other match ups, maybe the mirror and Death and taxes but I'm sure it's negligible.

I tried it for a while and absolutely hated it :mad:. Theoretically it seems good but I never made more than 3 tokens with it. The card is a paradox because you need to put 5 lands into play to even be able to cast it, 3 of which must produce G. When these lands stay in play they neither contribute to making more tokens by being in the graveyard nor contribute to casting the card with retrace because the land isn't in your hand anymore. Also if any of the lands you use to cast worm harvest are wasteland/rishadan port, you aren't using those cards to keep your opponent off of their mana. The card doesn't help you in the miracles match up once counter top lock is assembled since loam will most likely never resolve again and your only way to put a land in your hand is to manually draw it; therefore you will not be dredging life and putting lands in your yard, and the card will cease to do anything anyway.
As for the other match ups, it was never relevant when I play tested it but feel free to try it for yourself :wink:

[barcode]

I tried it for a while and absolutely hated it :mad:. Theoretically it seems good but I never made more than 3 tokens with it. The card is a paradox because you need to put 5 lands into play to even be able to cast it, 3 of which must produce G. When these lands stay in play they neither contribute to making more tokens by being in the graveyard nor contribute to casting the card with retrace because the land isn't in your hand anymore. Also if any of the lands you use to cast worm harvest are wasteland/rishadan port, you aren't using those cards to keep your opponent off of their mana. The card doesn't help you in the miracles match up once counter top lock is assembled since loam will most likely never resolve again and your only way to put a land in your hand is to manually draw it; therefore you will not be dredging life and putting lands in your yard, and the card will cease to do anything anyway.
As for the other match ups, it was never relevant when I play tested it but feel free to try it for yourself :wink:

This was my experience back in the BUG lands days years ago. It's just too slow to be useful.

[Nikolai004]

I tried it for a while and absolutely hated it :mad:. Theoretically it seems good but I never made more than 3 tokens with it. The card is a paradox because you need to put 5 lands into play to even be able to cast it, 3 of which must produce G. When these lands stay in play they neither contribute to making more tokens by being in the graveyard nor contribute to casting the card with retrace because the land isn't in your hand anymore. Also if any of the lands you use to cast worm harvest are wasteland/rishadan port, you aren't using those cards to keep your opponent off of their mana. The card doesn't help you in the miracles match up once counter top lock is assembled since loam will most likely never resolve again and your only way to put a land in your hand is to manually draw it; therefore you will not be dredging life and putting lands in your yard, and the card will cease to do anything anyway.
As for the other match ups, it was never relevant when I play tested it but feel free to try it for yourself :wink:

That's basically what I was worried about, it being better in theory and in the abstract than in actual play. After being blood moon'd several times recently and seeing no omni-tell I think I'll be adjusting my sideboard and put Seismic Assault in again. Molten Vortex though does just seem strictly better though I haven't had much practice and I haven't seen any games where it gets used either.

[KIP_NZ]

I can't speak for KIP but I have never missed the second Manabond (I recently cut it; placed 24th at Champs with just one). It's awesome in the mirror and that's basically it. I always sideboard it out.

Yup you do speak for me :)

Manabond is a liablity G2-3 as you'll notice my SB is all non-land things that I want to keep in my hand like trinisphere and grip. If I play manabond and never resolve the trigger it's like putting a flashing light above my head saying "I have a reactive non-land thing in my hand"

RE Karakas - No, I really like having the G1 bullets to rotate for, hence why the Bog and Karakas are MD. I feel I only need the 4th depths when I have to race, I'm not a racing player. I prefer to lock them out then tighten the noose. I only recently went from 2 to 3 DD in the main.

[Djehuti]

Manabond is a liablity G2-3 as you'll notice my SB is all non-land things that I want to keep in my hand like trinisphere and grip. If I play manabond and never resolve the trigger it's like putting a flashing light above my head saying "I have a reactive non-land thing in my hand"

I'll be play testing burgeoning as a replacement for this very reason.

[Nikolai004]

I'll be play testing burgeoning as a replacement for this very reason.

Honestly that sounds like a pretty good idea in situations like Reanimator or dredge when you draw the bog and can't crop rotate for it. Are you testing replacing both manabond's or just the one?

[Djehuti]

Honestly that sounds like a pretty good idea in situations like Reanimator or dredge when you draw the bog and can't crop rotate for it. Are you testing replacing both manabond's or just the one?

I'll try replacing them both first just to see if I miss manabond. If I do miss it, i'll hedge with a split and try it again.


That's basically what I was worried about, it being better in theory and in the abstract than in actual play. After being blood moon'd several times recently and seeing no omni-tell I think I'll be adjusting my sideboard and put Seismic Assault in again. Molten Vortex though does just seem strictly better though I haven't had much practice and I haven't seen any games where it gets used either.

I tried both seismic assault and molten vortex. So far I settled on Molten Vortex. It won me at least two games at the 5KIQ in NJ this weekend (1 against BURg Delver, 1 against the mirror). The other times I resolved it, it was Pithing Needled, wear//teared, my red sources were destroyed, or Loam was Surgically Extracted so i couldn't give it ammunition. That might not sound very good but it was a one mana spell that ate a lot of hate cards because people were scared of it. I bring it in against almost everything but storm, omni, and burn, but i might be siding it in too often. You could say seismic assault could have done the same thing except i doubt I could have cast seismic assault in half of the games that I resolved vortex.

[RingoDeathStarr]

Burgeoning seems like it would be very good in the mirror as well.

[haymaker18]

Burgeoning seems like it would be very good in the mirror as well.

In terms of the stack, are there any advantages or disadvantages with Burgeoning--specifically in the mirror? They play a land (which doesn't use the stack), then burgeoning triggers...they have a chance to respond to the trigger before we play a land? Once the trigger goes off and we play a land, who has priority? I wondered if there were any tricks or advantages to combo-ing in the mirror (or in other matchups) if you had a burgeoning in play.

[Dice_Box]

Yes, they get to respond to the trigger, that part is as normal. Once the trigger resolves and the card is in play, the stack is empty and the active player gains priority.

[Chatto]

RGCL-player Alexander Lorenz took first place during SCG Somerset this weekend (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90581).

Interesting to see yet another list dropping a Thicket, and four copies of DeeDee.

EDIT: this list by Ross Chodan during SCG Invitationals (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90456). Sweet, no Manabonds, but Sylvan Libraries and Bobs(!)

Am I wrong, do we have a list succesfully incorporating Bob?

[barcode]

RGCL-player Alexander Lorenz took first place during SCG Somerset this weekend (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90581).

Interesting to see yet another list dropping a Thicket, and four copies of DeeDee.

EDIT: this list by Ross Chodan during SCG Invitationals (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90456). Sweet, no Manabonds, but Sylvan Libraries and Bobs(!)

Am I wrong, do we have a list succesfully incorporating Bob?

Lands, the archetype, has always had success with Dark Confidant. However as the archetype split from the blue versions to a streamlined RG combo package the RG has eschewed Bob because we don't have black mana (except for Moxes and Bog).

[Chatto]

I know that (see post #634), just pleasantly surprised seeing the list.

[Croprot]

Do you guys think 4 punishing fires is necessary with the amount of death rite shaman in the format right. I don't want to have too many in my main board because more often than not unless I'm facing Delver, Shardless bug, or DnT at least one comes but against those decks it's nearly unbeatable.

[barcode]

Do you guys think 4 punishing fires is necessary with the amount of death rite shaman in the format right. I don't want to have too many in my main board because more often than not unless I'm facing Delver, Shardless bug, or DnT at least one comes but against those decks it's nearly unbeatable.

Those decks are unbeatable because of the four Punishing Fire, I think. I wouldn't dream of registering fewer than four, especially since the creatures you're likely to run into in a Legacy event are going to be x/1 or x/2. I'm happy sideboarding some out in some matches but personally I'll register four to start.

Here are some creatures we'll run into that die to Punishing Fire:

* Mother of Runes
* Thalia
* Flying Glowrider
* Monastery Mentor
* DRS
* Delver
* Baleful Strix
* Every card in Elves (except 2)
* Dark Confidant
* Stoneforge Mystic
* Flickerwisp
* Every creature in burn decks

And Serra Avenger dies easily enough to 2 by the time it comes down.

There are more creatures running around than you think and I still think we need four punishing fire.

[gigapatrick]

On Punishing Fire:

I've been playing only three main deck for quite a while now, and I haven't really missed the fourth. That being said, I've been wondering why all the lists showing up in top eights have been playing four, to the point that this weekend, at the SCG Cincinnati IQ, I think I'm going to go back up to four in the main. I'm not sure what I'm hedging against, maybe Grixis Delver. It isn't a bad matchup, but I suppose, if you want to win, Young Pyromancer and Deathrite Shaman probably have to die immediately. Not sure which land I'll cut, probably Bog like everyone else. Anyone else have ideas about Fire?

[Djehuti]

On Punishing Fire:

The only reason I run 3 copies in the main and 1 in the side is because the 4th PF is the weakest card by process of elimination when I'm trying to jam main board karakas, bog, ghost quarter, and DD #4. No doubt I want to see PF in heavy creature based matchups, but I've found that I lose more games because I can't make Marit Lage in time than failing to punish weenies.

[Alix444]

If a player puts wasteland into play off on a manabond activation, can they use that wasteland before the turn ends? Or does activating manabonds basically end your turn?

[Rampart]

If a player puts wasteland into play off on a manabond activation, can they use that wasteland before the turn ends? Or does activating manabonds basically end your turn?

So manabond triggers at the beginning of your end step every turn, then you have a choice to either reveal your hand or not. After the resolution of the manabond trigger you then have the opportunity to activate effects like stage or wasteland or your opponent can activate or cast spells too. much like the upkeep phase.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

One thing to note if you are a magic online player is that you will need to have a stop set on your own end step or the game will automatically move to their upkeep after you confirm or decline the manabond trigger. Probably not applicable but I've lost a game to it before.

[Dice_Box]

I wish they would reprint it with that wording, the amount of Judge calls...

[Alexeezay]

Djehuti can you post your list? I like mb karakas, bog & GQ but can't really find room.

[Djehuti]

Djehuti can you post your list? I like mb karakas, bog & GQ but can't really find room.


4 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire

1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacomb
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
2 Taiga
3 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

Sideboard:
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Molten Vortex
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Punishing Fire
2 Trinisphere
4 Krosan Grip


If you need me to explain any card choices, feel free to friend me and send me a PM :smile: I played 74 of this 75 at an IQ last week and went 5-3-1. I cut Choke for Chalice #2 and swapped punishing fire #4 from the main with DD in the side, and I'll be trying this tomorrow at another IQ.

[Crimhead]

I really dig that main deck. Big fan of Bog, Karakas, and Ghost Quarter.

EDIT - Deck to beat!

[barcode]

At FNM this week I'm going to be trying a few changes to see if it will help the Omni matchup.

The maindeck loses a Tranquil Thicket and 2 Taiga and the Bojuka Bog. Add in a Bayou, Badlands, Urborg, Riftstone Portal. Fetches become Verdants or Wooded Foothills

Sideboard cut all the artifacts and add 3 thoughtseize, 4 slaughter games, 2 bob. keep the 4 k-grips, choke and boseiju.

We'll see if these cards are good enough. So far in goldfishing the mana post-board is awful.


This was terrible. Don't do this! Thoughtseize is really great and Slaughter Games is merely okay against the rest of the field. Crippling the mana isn't worth it.

It's possible that a feasible plan would be:

2-3 Bobs
2 Bayou
3-4 Thoughtseize

But the Thoughtseize conflicts with the other plan to play Chalice of the Void for 1. Sadly I think Omni is just going to be a match we need a lot of diverse hate for and we'll just have to live with it.

I did learn that Riftstone Portal is worth playing so I'm going to keep that one.

[Chatto]

Ross Chodan could be an example (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90456), but he only splashed for Bob.

Riftstone Portal seems nice, but getting it into the GY can be tricky. Did you dredged it often into your GY? Do you prefer MD it or opt to SB it?

[barcode]

Ross Chodan could be an example (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=90456), but he only splashed for Bob.

Riftstone Portal seems nice, but getting it into the GY can be tricky. Did you dredged it often into your GY? Do you prefer MD it or opt to SB it?

You can Crop Rotation it away, you can discard it to Mox Diamond, you can sac it to Glacial Chasm (then don't pay upkeep), you can wasteland. Last night I discarded it to hand size (!) and then dumped 6 other lands into play with Manabond on the next turn - two of them didn't normally make mana.

There are ways to get it into the bin. :)

[Chatto]

Wauw, of course... Got to think outside the box from time to time :-))

[gigapatrick]

Just got third at the Cincy legacy IQ with our deck. Report tomorrow when I'm not exhausted.

[KIP_NZ]

Just got third at the Cincy legacy IQ with our deck. Report tomorrow when I'm not exhausted.

Congrats! Looking forward to it :)

[Croprot]

Just got third at the Cincy legacy IQ with our deck. Report tomorrow when I'm not exhausted.

How did you like the boil in your side board? im assuming it was for the omnitell matchup and its been something ive been considering but didnt have any data on.

[GrimoirePath]

Interested to read your report giga. I played cincinnati too, with moderate results. Beat MUD twice, beat Grixis Delver. Lost to Omnitell twice, and lost to a weird merfolk stoneforge build after a mull to five rough game one and a draw on game two that went to time.

[gigapatrick]

GrimoirePath: Yeah, I saw you playing against Bernie Wen with his Merforge deck that he told me he just put together on the spot because he wasn't planning on playing. I remember standing next to you near the matchup stand. I was the guy who said, Oh yeah, I just made forty bucks on Ebay! and you said something like, Look at you. Bernie's a real good player in this area (we split an IQ a while ago), and that looked like a grisly long match between you two.

Croprot: I did bring in the Boil against Omnitell, but never saw it during the match. It should have been a third Choke, as I explain here, in my report:

RG Lands in Cincy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29891-SCG-Legacy-IQ-in-Cincinnati-with-RG-Lands)

[Crimhead]

How did you like the boil in your side board? im assuming it was for the omnitell matchup and its been something ive been considering but didnt have any data on.I've been thinking about testing a Flashfires for nuking white sources. Should be a bomb vs D&T too.

[barcode]

I've been thinking about testing a Flashfires for nuking white sources. Should be a bomb vs D&T too.

I wouldn't think we need the help with Death & Taxes.

[Croprot]

I wouldn't think we need the help with Death & Taxes.

So post board it's a possibly difficult match up. If they land early RIP and can tempo us they can win. The biggest thing in the match up in my opinion is how many turns are we leaving RIP Unanswered. Second to that is how long and how many aether vials come online. That being said I know surgical is becoming more popular in the format so I don't know if RIP will maintain its spot or if DnT will put the surgicals in. I test with a DnT guy and them being on the play vs draw is also hugely important in the match up. I myself am no longer on a needle in the board so it is somewhat more difficult for me.

[barcode]

So post board it's a possibly difficult match up. If they land early RIP and can tempo us they can win. The biggest thing in the match up in my opinion is how many turns are we leaving RIP Unanswered. Second to that is how long and how many aether vials come online. That being said I know surgical is becoming more popular in the format so I don't know if RIP will maintain its spot or if DnT will put the surgicals in. I test with a DnT guy and them being on the play vs draw is also hugely important in the match up. I myself am no longer on a needle in the board so it is somewhat more difficult for me.

The only games I have lost to D&T are the ones where they don't have Rest in Peace. The games I lose start with them on the play and go Mother of Runes (or Vial) into Thalia into Stoneforge for SoFaI. I've yet to lose a match to Death and Taxes, however. Not to say it won't eventually happen but it's something like 10 or 12 matches under my belt and the win percentage is 100%.

I'm not sure D&T is interested very much in Surgical Extraction. They don't use their graveyard at all so Rest in Peace is better overall value of nuking everything. I could be wrong. I haven't kept up to date with D&T tech.

[Sibelius]

Beware of 2 x Cataclysm out of many D and T boards. Don't let them get to four mana and try not to waste your Krosan Grips. Should be fine.

[barcode]

Beware of 2 x Cataclysm out of many D and T boards. Don't let them get to four mana and try not to waste your Krosan Grips. Should be fine.

Cataclysm can be devastating but often it works out better in our favour. Consider: We keep Mox Diamond, Land and Exploration. Best case for the opponent (barring Rest in Peace in play) is they keep Land, Batterskull and Germ. We should be able to beat that.

[gigapatrick]

Cataclysm can be devastating but often it works out better in our favour. Consider: We keep Mox Diamond, Land and Exploration. Best case for the opponent (barring Rest in Peace in play) is they keep Land, Batterskull and Germ. We should be able to beat that.

I'm not sure I'd call this the best case scenario for them. Best case seems more like: land, aether vial, creature, RIP, play a land for turn. Admittedly, having land, Batterskull, Germ after Cataclysm is more likely for them.

[Philipp2293]

Lately I found Esper Blade a little bit annoying.....there's one other lands player in my meta and apparently some guys are doing lots of testing with him, so the Esper players usually show up with 3-4 Meddling Mages und Needles in their SBs......games tend to get annoying, yesterday I had a game which went Needle your Stage, MM on Fire, MM on Grip.......ugh. I already run 2 Molten Vortex in the SB, but some other options I'm considering are Barbarian Ring, Volcanic Fallout (those players tend to overextend after their first Mage names Fire) and Rending Volley. I'm tending towards testing the ring for a few times. My list is pretty close to Daryl Ayers list (Bog moved to MD instead of 1 Thicket, Bog-SB slot filled with the 2nd Molten Vortex.

I've started to question the usefullness of Choke, since there is currently 0 Miracles and Omnitell in my meta.

Good news: Went x-1-1 total in my last 2 small locals, drawing vs a slow Esper player and possibly losing to ANT because of a misplay, winning everything else.

[Djehuti]

Lately I found Esper Blade a little bit annoying.....there's one other lands player in my meta and apparently some guys are doing lots of testing with him, so the Esper players usually show up with 3-4 Meddling Mages und Needles in their SBs......games tend to get annoying, yesterday I had a game which went Needle your Stage, MM on Fire, MM on Grip.......ugh. I already run 2 Molten Vortex in the SB, but some other options I'm considering are Barbarian Ring, Volcanic Fallout (those players tend to overextend after their first Mage names Fire) and Rending Volley. I'm tending towards testing the ring for a few times. My list is pretty close to Daryl Ayers list (Bog moved to MD instead of 1 Thicket, Bog-SB slot filled with the 2nd Molten Vortex.

I've started to question the usefullness of Choke, since there is currently 0 Miracles and Omnitell in my meta.

I like the barbarian ring because you can tutor for it with crop rotation and it can be recurred which can't be said for your other two considerations; it doesn't hurt that it isn't a spell so it can't be forced.

On choke: This card has not lived up to the hype for me either. I've never seen it in my omni matchups and it either gets countered or wear//teared or vensered in the miracles matchup.

[barcode]

On choke: This card has not lived up to the hype for me either. I've never seen it in my omni matchups and it either gets countered or wear//teared or vensered in the miracles matchup.

What kind of logic is that? "Don't play hate cards because they can be answered" ?!? If people believed that no one would play Rest in Peace or Surgical Extraction against us. "Oh, they'll just K-Grip it. Oh, they always have Chalice for 1."

[Brendelton]

Long time lurker, just joined due to the fact that type1 seems to have died out. K-Grip seems to be a necessity at the moment in the side board, it has worked wonders. Choke is another card that can close games out, if it resolves.

I was wondering about horizon canopy and use of Gaddock Teeg as hate for a variety of decks. I could be wrong, I would just like some input on this issue.

Thanks

[GrimoirePath]

When I have resolved choke it has been incredible. You can port their islands and they stay tapped. Any other basics can be ported and you have them locked out.

Resolving it is the hard part.

[gigapatrick]

Agreed with barcode on Choke. Choke often ends up as a counter-this-or-you-lose type of play. Yes, it can get countered and it can get Weared--but if it doesn't, you should absolutely win the game, for three mana.

[Djehuti]

What kind of logic is that? "Don't play hate cards because they can be answered" ?!? If people believed that no one would play Rest in Peace or Surgical Extraction against us. "Oh, they'll just K-Grip it. Oh, they always have Chalice for 1."

:really: I think you've mistaken my recollection of personal experience for a suggestion not to play the card. I chose my words carefully and said it hasn't lived up to the hype for me since the games in which it has resolved, it was easily dispatched. I never said people shouldn't play it, and even if I did, I think there's more polite ways to disagree with people.

[Chatto]

As long the your meta is very Blue-oriented Choke is a solid choice. Granted, it will sometimes be a bit lacklusting, but overall it's a solid choice.

[Crimhead]

I wouldn't think we need the help with Death & Taxes.I consider D&T favorable - but it's no cake-walk either. It can be hard to tap-down white sources when facing a deck with a lot of basic plains like Miracles or D&T. I don't necessarily think Flashfires is worthy of a sb slot - but it is something I've been toying with in my head.

[Dice_Box]

Make game one last forever, then you don't have to deal with RIP. ;)

In all honesty, the deck is an aggressive deck and Gives you 20 life time after time. If the Grave is not cut off, this is not the worst deck you can face. Flickerwhisp is a problem, but again, nothing you can't deal with if the grave is open.

Edit:
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/144/61/635770864536487572.png

I am very close to spending a lot of money making this deck sexy...

[barcode]

Took the `ol RGCL out to FNM last night and ended up 4-0. I beat 12post, Death & Taxes with green (possibly Maverick with Vials, but I saw no Knights of the Reliquary or Scavenging Oozes), Jeskai Stoneblade and finally Miracles.

Yeah, I beat 12post. I was shocked, too. He had a slow start with no Locus lands until very late and by that point I was able to Wasteland and use Ports to keep him off blue mana to check Show & Tell. Game 2 he starts with a Cloudpost and I get a concession with Mox, Wasteland, Chalice for 1. He shows me Pithing Needle, Crop Rotation and another 1 drop.

The only other notable match was Miracles. I knew he had a creature heavy version a la Joe Lossett (Venser, Mentor, Clique, Snapcaster) so I left in 1 Punishing Fire. Early in game 2 I Gambled for it so it was in the yard. Game 2 he had no top nor counterbalance. He had a Needle, though. He fetched up a lot of basics and had two of the islands caught by Choke, which was answered two turns later. He forced the second Choke. I landed a Chalice for 1 fairly late to stop plows, needles and tops. He cliques me and tucks my Loam but saw Depths, K-grip, K-grip. The writing is on the wall and it's a few turns before I'm able to deal with the Karakas and bash his face in with a 20/20. Very happy with the sideboard cards.

I'm on the Dark Confidant plan and the Bayou has been weird to adapt to. I am so used to three Taigas in the deck that I played a fetchland intending to get the third Taiga even though both Taigas were accounted for: 1 in play, 1 in my hand (which I should have played for Punishing Fire). Haven't had an opportunity to play Bob yet.

edit: I played a Riftstone Portal in the main deck. It was merely alright, not spectacular. It may have had more utility as a Ghost Quarer. I did discard the Portal to a Mox and was able to tap a Maze of Ith and Dark Depths to activate Thespian's Stage but that game was unloseable anyways. Is the Portal good enough? I think I need more games to tell. It's an easy cut when I expect Rest in Peace, however.

[Crimhead]

Does anybody have links for more video coverage in your bookmarks (I've seen all the videos linked in the primer)? It would save me a lot of googling.

[barcode]

Does anybody have links for more video coverage in your bookmarks (I've seen all the videos linked in the primer)? It would save me a lot of googling.

You might have good luck using/searching mtgcoverage.com and just searching YouTube for "legacy lands."

[Dice_Box]

I really have to stop being lazy and update that thing.

[Crimhead]

Your primer is awesome Dice!

Thanks Barcode for the tech-savvy tip.

Edit - found this from that link:
http://mtgcoverage.com/deck.php?id=262

I'll check 'em out when my 3 year old daughter bores of climbing on me!

[Dice_Box]

Your primer is awesome Dice!
I will take credit for colluding the information into one place, I ain't taking credit for writing it all. It's not my primer, very much a group effort.

[non-inflammable]

I play the "standard" list of RGCL minus one dark depths (I only own three DD) but I main deck a worm harvest.
I even tried a nether spirit as my 61st card but I will probably cut it.

Last Night at the weekly legacy event...

First match is against infect and I usually do well.
Mull to at least a maze of ith or a possible punishing fire or grove combo.
Opponent main-decked two spellskites and that was difficult, he got me to 9 infect counters.
Win 2-0

Second match is against thopter/foundry tezzeret.
I never played against it before but i guessed correctly before we started since he spilled some thopter tokens on the table.
Quick game 1 beats into a slow grind for game 2. Worm harvest and nether spirit kept me in it to time, but he ulted Tezz in extra turns.
I misplayed with my worm tokens thinking I could grind him into extra turns, I also had qlacial chasm in hand, but that damn Tezz ult.
He shut off my GY with Leyline of the Void and also had 2 ensnaring bridges in play.
Draw 1-1

Third Match is against a Jund deck that I made for a friend.
He was inexperienced but a first turn deathrite shaman was tough to stabilize against.
He ran me over game two with a perfect curve with Liliana threatening to ult.
Game three I won because I had the combo in hand. RGCL is rather resilient to discard but if he had one Hymn to Tourach, he would've won.
Win 2-1

Fourth Match is against the best player in the room: RUG Delver (damn nimble mongoose) with seemingly endless counters and stifles.
We were both almost guaranteed to be in top four so we draw for the match but then play for fun.
I'm reckless and cast all my spells into lots of counters and get run over 2-0.
He chuckles about beating me 2-0 and says as we walk away, "See you in the finals."
Intentional Draw

Fifth Match opponent is against the same infect opponent from first round.
Same result but Spellskite is a PITA...
He got me to 9 infect counters again and the only reason I won was glacial chasm shenanigans.
Win 2-0

Sixth and final Match is against the same RUG delver player from the fourth Match.
It seemed like we played for a long time with the last game taking almost an hour.
Game 3 he has two early surgical extractions and gets both my Life from the Loam and Thespian's stage.
I tried to tick down a Dark depths but worm harvest with p-fire loops got me the win against two healthy nimble mongoose.
Seemingly endless daze, stifle, spell pierce and FOW made this game go forever.
Worm Harvest is my MVP.

I've only landed choke twice ever, and both times it was in previous games against this opponent.
He had sided in winter orb and will now side in grafdigger's cage for the worm harvest...

I dodged burn, D&T, omni-tell and a weird Helmerator deck with show and tell...

[Rudiker]

Long time player of lands, all variety. Looking at sb for R/G do you guys think taking molten vortex and moving main in a pf spot is correct and adding a 2nd vortex in the side? Currently I'm running my sb as :4 Grip, 4 Trin, : 2 Chalice, 2 Choke, 1 Karakas, 1 Bojuka, 1 Molten Vortex. I'm thinking if we move vortex main that frees up a spot for boseju in sb leaving us with the 2 chalice to battle storm and omni better. What is everyone's thoughts.

[barcode]

Punishing Fire is way better than Molten Vortex. The reason Vortex is in the sideboard of some players is they see it as a route to victory through Blood Moon and graveyard hate. You couldn't pay me enough money to play Molten Vortex in my 75.

[Nikolai004]

Long time player of lands, all variety. Looking at sb for R/G do you guys think taking molten vortex and moving main in a pf spot is correct and adding a 2nd vortex in the side? Currently I'm running my sb as :4 Grip, 4 Trin, : 2 Chalice, 2 Choke, 1 Karakas, 1 Bojuka, 1 Molten Vortex. I'm thinking if we move vortex main that frees up a spot for boseju in sb leaving us with the 2 chalice to battle storm and omni better. What is everyone's thoughts.

I tried the exact same thing, with the vortex replacing in the main a Pfire and it almost always got milled or was a dead card in my hand for various reasons. The Pfire is just better and honestly the decision between Vortex and Seismic assault, I land on the side of the Assault. Being able to use all of your mana and just pitching lands to deal 2 damage is just way better than having to be careful with your mana with Vortex. There's a big difference between Pith a land and R+pitch a land.

[Rudiker]

So what is everyone's SB looking like then? Also do you like running 4 fetches with two thickets or possible 3 fetches 2 thickets and a HC. Advantages and disadvantages of both, I havent tested the 2nd way yet.

[gigapatrick]

Hello all,

I've recently acquired Lands on MTGO, and now I can make and post videos for everyone's enjoyment:

Building a Fortress #1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0p7lXrMnvg)

Unfortunately, this first video is a little fuzzy because I forgot to change my screen resolution, but it is still watchable. I'll record future videos with the proper resolution. Until then, enjoy this video, if possible.

Edit:

Scratch what I said before. I just checked the video out and it looks fairly clean actually. Enjoy.

[barcode]

So what is everyone's SB looking like then? Also do you like running 4 fetches with two thickets or possible 3 fetches 2 thickets and a HC. Advantages and disadvantages of both, I havent tested the 2nd way yet.

I've been on this list for a week or so. So far, 4-0 at FNM beating 12post, maverick & taxes (death & taxes with savannah and pridemage. saw no knights), UWR stoneblade, miracles. Win each time.

Haven't played Omni yet so...

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rg-lands-4/

[Nikolai004]

So what is everyone's SB looking like then? Also do you like running 4 fetches with two thickets or possible 3 fetches 2 thickets and a HC. Advantages and disadvantages of both, I havent tested the 2nd way yet.

I run a slightly different main than most people because I like to have the main deck Bog. I run 2 Thickets and 3 different fetches. The sideboard right now is 3 choke, 4 K-grip, 4 Trinisphere, 1 Karakas, 1 Boseiju and 2 flex slots which usually is a pithing needle and a chalice or 2 sphere of res.

I have been considering turning the manabonds into either mirri's guile or sylvan library. I almost always take out the manabonds for games 2 and 3 because I can't always just drop my hand and that just telegraphs that I have some non-land cards I can't get back in my hand. Being able to filter my draws is great so I can get my missing piece faster and, possibly even more relevant in the 2nd and 3rd games you're able to check for your hate before deciding to dredge loam which I think would be amazing.

[Chatto]

Main is very stock, also have Bog main. All in all, this list has served me well:

Spells (16)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble

Other Spells (10)
2 Manabond
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond

Lands (34)
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Taiga
3 Maze of Ith
3 Dark Depths
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

Sideboard (15)
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Karakas
2 Choke
3 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip

I like the Spheres over 3Ball, that explains the 4/3-split.

@ Dice: sweet Mother of God! That pimpin' :laugh: :laugh:

[Alexeezay]

@gigapatrick That's great! I liked the 1st video, you had really rough opening hands lol.

On another note: My meta shifted from heavy Miracles/Delver to multiple Loam decks (4C Loam, Lands etc) so my sideboard has 2 Titania, Protector of Argoth (http://magiccards.info/query?q=titania%2C+protector+of+argoth&v=card&s=cname) to gain a small edge. What do you think?

[barcode]

http://media.wizards.com/2015/bfz_8asdifk2Sk2cs/en_Oe8Lza4EjJ.png

Blighted Fen

T: Add :1:
:4::b:, T, Sacrifice ~: Target opponent sacrifices a creature

This is something to consider. It deals with True-Name Nemesis and might even be worthwhile to deal with Emrakul from Omni (Although that would obviously need testing). Personally I've been on the light black splash for Bob and this might take the spot of something like Riftstone Portal in my deck.

[Brendelton]

I really like mirri's guile atm. It seems to replace manabond perfectly, just wondering what everyone else thought?

[barcode]

I really like mirri's guile atm. It seems to replace manabond perfectly, just wondering what everyone else thought?

I haven't played it so I'm speculating here:

I think Manabond has a higher limit to break the game. Loaming multiple times a turn later in the game (and then dumping those lands into play) seems to have more value than manipulating the top 3 each upkeep. Those top 3 which may end up being dredged anyways to recur important lands.

Have you tried Sylvan Library? It's similar in behaviour to Mirri's Guile but it allows us to dredge three times each draw step and to manipulate the cards in such a way that they end up in our hand. It's one mana more, which might matter.

[Brendelton]

Thank you for the reply. I tried sylvan library and the one extra mana is pretty rough. The second and third games I have loved guile because I can check to see if my K-grip in in one of the three cards I would dredge. I do agree that manabond is fantastic when dredging, it just seems that manabond is always #1 card that I side out in every match up, and maybe that is a good thing.

[barcode]

Thank you for the reply. I tried sylvan library and the one extra mana is pretty rough. The second and third games I have loved guile because I can check to see if my K-grip in in one of the three cards I would dredge. I do agree that manabond is fantastic when dredging, it just seems that manabond is always #1 card that I side out in every match up, and maybe that is a good thing.

I think it's great to have an automatic card to cut from the deck. Manabond does a good job at that, especially since it isn't high impact in every matchup but sometimes it's the best card.

[Chatto]

Blighted Fen

T: Add :1:
:4::b:, T, Sacrifice ~: Target opponent sacrifices a creature

This is something to consider. It deals with True-Name Nemesis and might even be worthwhile to deal with Emrakul from Omni (Although that would obviously need testing). Personally I've been on the light black splash for Bob and this might take the spot of something like Riftstone Portal in my deck.

I like it! But perhaps a bit too expensive?

[barcode]

I like it! But perhaps a bit too expensive?

There's no other ability on a land that edicts an opponent. Right now we know the baseline for this ability is five mana. Usually we can have that much mana available and, I think, having access to this gives us an out to more troublesome creatures like True-Name Nemesis, Tidespout Tyrant, the mirror and less probable, Emrakul.

Does this card mean that we can't lose to 12post or Omnitell? No, of course not. But it gives us another utility land for our arsenal that we should consider. Black splash might be worthwhile anyways to have access to Dark Confidant post-board.

It may be magical Christmas land to edict their best creatures but now we can at least have the option.

[Layalouhamesh]

T: Add
, T, Sacrifice ~: Target opponent sacrifices a creature

It really looks great, but I'm not so sure of its efficiency against S&T.
The classical play is to put Omniscience into play, then dig to find a Cunning wish.
Then, you get Firemind's Foresignt that gives you another wish, a Brainstorm, and a Split Decision
With the wish, you can then get an Eladamri Call, and you can copy the wish with Split Decision to get a Trickbind.

So there is an easy way to go around the sacrifice.
That said, the only situation where I think it is great is if Emrakul comes directly with S&T.
However, in this case I find Karakas strictly better.

Finally, it has already been said, but the card looks really nice against Nemesis

[Admiral_Arzar]

The activation cost is a little steep but Urborg fixes that pretty handily. Of course, now we're dealing with another slot which is hard to come by.

[gigapatrick]

Check out this epic grindfest against Miracles:

Building a Fortress #2 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SQleNwsi3YE)

[Morte]

Thank you gigapatrick, the Miracle matchup usually is quite boring, I enjoied a lot the finale of the game!

Your videos are interesting and useful, go on like this!

[lavafrogg]

Seeing how some people are playing boseju in the sideboard for the miracle matchup, has anyone also added Tsunamis over the chokes?

Uncounterable, one sided armageddons against most of the format seems like something that is worth trying.

[Crimhead]

Seeing how some people are playing boseju in the sideboard for the miracle matchup, has anyone also added Tsunamis over the chokes?

Boil is better - and I think it was discussed (very briefly) a page or two back. I'm thinking of trying it out - I run into too much Submerge for my liking.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Boil is better - and I think it was discussed (very briefly) a page or two back. I'm thinking of trying it out - I run into too much Submerge for my liking.

Resolving Boil in modern Legacy is one of the greatest feelings ever. I believe that blue players should be punished for their sins, and few cards do it better :P.

Anyways, I decided to play this deck for the first time in a year and took down a GPT over the weekend. My list was a tweaked version of the last David Long list:

4 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
4 Gamble
2 Manabond
4 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Horizon Canopy
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Dark Depths
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Karakas
2 Sphere of Resistance
3 Choke
4 Krosan Grip
4 Trinisphere

I opted for full playsets of the combo pieces to increase the number of "oops, I win" hands, and moved the Bog to the maindeck to hedge against graveyard decks (turns out there were several but I was never paired against them). The event had 16 players, we played 5 rounds.

Round 1 - Stifle-Nought

Awesome, paired against one of the friends I drove up here with right off the bat :(. Game one a Dreadnought gets stuck in a Maze and I make a Marit Lage while my opponent is tapped out (Stifle). Game two he opens with Deathrite and a fast Dreadnought. I find Maze but he is able to cantrip into Wasteland and kill me before I can find another Maze or a Grip. I misplayed here by playing an unnecessary Dark Depths, which shut off the desperation Gamble -> Grip play as I needed another manasource in play to pull it off. Game 3 I kill a couple of Deathrites, Maze one Nought, and Grip the other. I eventually make Marit Lage who is bigger than Dreadnought. 2-1

Round 2 - Counter-Sliver

Omg this deck. Both of these games involve lots of Wastelands and the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale followed by big flying tentacle witch monsters. Not much to see here, this matchup is atrocious for him. 2-0

Round 3 - TES

Uh oh. This guy is another friend of mine so I know exactly what he's on. I lose the die roll (!) and keep a hand with the potential to make a turn 2 Marit Lage if I draw an additional land. I draw it but he kills me before I can attack. I board in all the Spheres and some Chokes. Game 2 I make a turn 2 Trinisphere and eventually play a Choke and some Wastelands. He scoops when I play out the combo. Game 3 I keep Mox Sphere Choke 4 Lands and get Duressed. He takes Choke and I turn one Sphere. I draw Wastelands and Ports and Loam and slowly grind him out - he is able to find Chain of Vapor for the Sphere but it isn't enough and I eventually make a 20/20. 2-1

Round 4 - Grixis Control

I lose the die roll. Game one I mulligan to 5 and don't cast a spell the entire game. I have the combo on the board on his turn 5, and he swings to put me at 2 (Pyromancer, Snapcaster, and tokens). I choose not to make Marit and block for fear of Jace, Lili, etc. He Digs into Land + Bolt and we go to game 2. I later learn that he plays Innocent Blood in addition to Jace. Game 2 my hand has Exploration, Loams and Fires but his has double Surgical Extraction. I die before I can naturally draw the combo. 0-2

Round 5 - MUD Painter

I lose the roll again and my opponent makes a turn one Grindstone off of Ancient Tomb. I don't have Wasteland or Port but have the ability to make turn 2 Marit Lage. It doesn't matter as he slams Painter on turn 2 and we go to game 2. Game 2 I keep the Manabond + 6 lands God hand and make Marit Lage on turn 1. Game 3 is a long grindy affair where I have a million ports. Unfortunately, he has Tormod's Crypt, Ensnaring Bridge, Chalice at 2, and Coercive Portal which draws him enough cards to break out of my softlock. I die to Metalworker/Staff combo. I had a lot of time to draw a Grip here but it wasn't happening. 1-2

So at 3-2 I shouldn't make top 4 (they cut to 4 for some reason instead of 8) but the first seed (Grixis Control guy) isn't going to the GP and scoops as prizes were given out at end of Swiss. As the x-2 with the highest breakers I sneak in at 4th.

Semifinals - MUD Painter

I don't even have to move from my seat as I'm playing my round 5 opponent again. He has the play due to higher seed but it doesn't matter. I have immediate Wasteland recursion and his ability to play spells is severely limited. Game 2 I keep a hand without Loam or Exploration but with 3 Wastelands and maybe a Port too. I waste and port every land he plays until I eventually draw Exploration, then a second Exploration, and then Gamble for Loam. Loam gets back 3 Wastelands and that earns a concession. 2-0

Finals - Grixis Tezzerator

My buddy on TES lost to this guy in the semis (Tezz is a terrible matchup for storm, between Chalice, Trinisphere, Leyline, and FOW). He will be avenged. Game one my opponent opens with Ancient Tomb, Chalice on 1, Chalice on 0. I once again establish Wasteland recursion very early in the game (Loam is the only spell I can cast anyways lol). Turns out he kept a land-light hand because of the double Chalice, and is punished for it. There's little he can do other than Force the first Loam, and then I make a Marit Lage. Game 2 he opens with turn 0 Leyline of the Void. I play some Lands and then Gamble for Thespian's Stage (I discard Choke and make a big deal about it). I assemble the combo and pass the turn. I expect Ensnaring Bridge but he doesn't have it and plays Dack Fayden to try and Loot into Wasteland. He doesn't and Marit Lage gets there (turns out Grip was my next card, so Loam was going to be online anyways). 2-0

The deck was powerful, more powerful than I remember. I had a lot of explosive hands that were insane against decks without Swords to Plowshares. I did mulligan a decent amount (the maindeck Bog caused at least 2 mulligans by not producing green mana) but it was only a problem against Grixis where I just did nothing in game one. My sideboard is primarily configured for Omni which I ended up not facing, but all the Spheres were good against Storm and the Grips and Chokes were good against most everything else. I never boarded in Karakas, but I dodged both the Reanimator and Dredge player that were in the room. Boseiju came in against Grixis but I didn't see it.

[Layalouhamesh]

Nice result :)

Nothing related: I was reading the primer on page 1 again, as I'm building a black version. When thinking of Abrupt Decay Vs Krosan Grip, I was mainly in favor of the Decay, but then I realized that it couldn't handle Blood Moon (except on the turn it is played) due to the absence of a Swamp in the deck. Maybe this should appear somewhere in the Abrupt Decay section in the primer.

What do you guys think of the choice of one over the other? I'm pretty much convinced that Decay is better in most situations as long as you stay aware of Blood Moon (other drawbacks I see are an opponent's Venser that can save Decay's target, or the impossibility to destroy Omniscience).

[Admiral_Arzar]

Nice result :)

Nothing related: I was reading the primer on page 1 again, as I'm building a black version. When thinking of Abrupt Decay Vs Krosan Grip, I was mainly in favor of the Decay, but then I realized that it couldn't handle Blood Moon (except on the turn it is played) due to the absence of a Swamp in the deck. Maybe this should appear somewhere in the Abrupt Decay section in the primer.

What do you guys think of the choice of one over the other? I'm pretty much convinced that Decay is better in most situations as long as you stay aware of Blood Moon (other drawbacks I see are an opponent's Venser that can save Decay's target, or the impossibility to destroy Omniscience).

Thanks. I would stick with Grip - it destroys Omniscience and Leyline of the Void, which Decay does not. I suppose you could run a split of the two, but I definitely wouldn't cut Grip.

[barcode]

Krosan Grip is miles better than Abrupt Decay. Split second is extremely relevant.

[Dice_Box]

As is the not being black.

[Layalouhamesh]

Thanks for your answers. I will try both in my local meta to find if a split is worth playing (lots of Miracles and aggro decks)

[Dice_Box]

Against Miracles I hold Boseiju with an unnatural love.

When playing the Black Splash against Miracles, I like Bob and Boseiju. It's likely they have removal, but if they use it on Bob that's a bonus. If they don't, that's a bigger plus.

[Layalouhamesh]

Against Miracles I hold Boseiju with an unnatural love.

When playing the Black Splash against Miracles, I like Bob and Boseiju. It's likely they have removal, but if they use it on Bob that's a bonus. If they don't, that's a bigger plus.

Isn't the life loss a bit too much? Zuran Orb in addition?

[Dice_Box]

The average CMC of a standard build is about 0.46 total. No, it's really not an issue. Plus, if they are hurting, just don't play the upkeep on Tabernacle.

Honestly, the biggest reason to run Black would be Bob. If you have the splash going, run him.

[barcode]

Against Miracles I hold Boseiju with an unnatural love.

When playing the Black Splash against Miracles, I like Bob and Boseiju. It's likely they have removal, but if they use it on Bob that's a bonus. If they don't, that's a bigger plus.

I resolved Bob against a Miracles last FNM (we were the last two 3-0 players) in game 2. He untapped and Terminused it. It blew my mind. On the one hand I knew I was going to win because he still had Terminus in his deck but on the other: he terminused my bob on turn 2! He SET UP Terminus with Ponder!

[Dice_Box]

I resolved Bob against a Miracles last FNM (we were the last two 3-0 players) in game 2. He untapped and Terminused it. It blew my mind. On the one hand I knew I was going to win because he still had Terminus in his deck but on the other: he terminused my bob on turn 2! He SET UP Terminus with Ponder!
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=3744&type=card

[Crimhead]

Krosan Grip is miles better than Abrupt Decay. Split second is extremely relevant.Grip is also better at blowing up SDT - and almost as good at blowing up Counter Balance.

Split second allows us to ounish opponents for sitting on Relic of Progenetus

Decay hits dudes, but we are pretty good already against non-shrouded creatures.

[gigapatrick]

Another grindfest against Miracles:

Building a Fortress #3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvXSeIqwl5c)

Enjoy.

[Dice_Box]

Decay hits dudes, but we are pretty good already against non-shrouded creatures.
Goyf, Knight and other horizontally growing creatures can be painful though. I guess if there was a large amount of them in your meta it could be worth a thought.

[CptHaddock]

Goyf, Knight and other horizontally growing creatures can be painful though. I guess if there was a large amount of them in your meta it could be worth a thought.

Would there be any consideration into just splashing blue for academy ruins, engineered explosives and any other artifacts that might be worth running because of the splash in that sort of meta? Or does that just make the deck weaker? Seems like EE would solve a lot of problems that we may have with hatebears and other problematic permanents.

[barcode]

Check out this epic grindfest against Miracles:

Building a Fortress #2 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SQleNwsi3YE)

Finally had a chance to watch this one. I think I would have Gambled for a second Exploration in game 1. When we can get ahead on lands instead of just breaking even replaying Stage/Depths it's much better for us. We have opportunities to port lands and can start punishing fire them out as plan B. Also, I would have mazed Marit Lage after attacking so we can blank any attacks (instead of just mazing their guys). Other than that: well played. It would be good to see what the match looked like from the Miracles side.

edit: And for #3. Dear god play your Explorations. :( Using your mana every turn makes drawing loam so good. Choke is the nuts! Also, why do you port in draw step?

[Dice_Box]

Would there be any consideration into just splashing blue for academy ruins, engineered explosives and any other artifacts that might be worth running because of the splash in that sort of meta? Or does that just make the deck weaker? Seems like EE would solve a lot of problems that we may have with hatebears and other problematic permanents.
I have tried to do this a few times, my last experiment ended with me dumping the idea totally. I wrote about it some pages back.

[gigapatrick]

Barcode:

Thanks for the advice. I think you're definitely right about Gambling for another exploration in the first match against Miracles. I hadn't even considered that--but that's part of the point of the videos, to improve my play. As for playing out my Explorations in the first game of the second match against Miracles, again I didn't consider it because I had Manabond in play (which is about equivalent to two Explorations), but you're certainly right again.

As for tapping with Port during Draw Step: if I do it during upkeep, they get a free spin of their Top, essentially. Then they draw exactly what they want. If I do it on Draw, they've already drawn their card for turn and spinning then is less useful. Granted, it probably doesn't matter ninety-eight percent of the time, but the other two percent might matter.

[barcode]

As for tapping with Port during Draw Step: if I do it during upkeep, they get a free spin of their Top, essentially. Then they draw exactly what they want. If I do it on Draw, they've already drawn their card for turn and spinning then is less useful. Granted, it probably doesn't matter ninety-eight percent of the time, but the other two percent might matter.

They are likely to be spinning at the end of your turn. If you tap in their upkeep they have no top benefit with the mana (they can still brainstorm or Dig, but that's another issue). Doing it in their draw step you let them use the mana right away to set up their next draw (instead of forcing it end of turn or upkeep; a decision between casting a spell or using top) because the first thing done in the draw step is to draw a card. There's definitely cases to port in the draw step, like when you have multiple ports: use one in upkeep and they may float mana. If they float and pass priority let the mana empty and then use the other port in their draw step to pin down a land and cut off more sorcery speed effects.

Also, on the "production quality" front, when you speak to folks not on the recording please mute your mic. ;) We can all hear you speaking to your little one.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I took my list from the previous page to my local last night. Matchups were as follows:

Round 1 - Omnitell

I lose the die roll and my opponent goes Island -> Preordain. My Exploration gets Forced, and then my Stage activation targeting depths on turn 3 gets Stifled (!). He combos the next turn. I board like this:

-3 Maze
-3 Wasteland
-1 Gamble
-2 Manabond
-3 Punishing Fire
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Glacial Chasm

+4 Trinisphere
+4 Krosan Grip
+3 Choke
+2 Sphere of Resistance
+1 Karakas

Game two I keep a hand with awkward mana but also double Trinisphere. I draw Ports, then a Sphere or Resistance which gets Forced. I rip Thespian's Stage on turn 4 and pass with the combo ready. My opponent casts Show and Tell, I put in Trinisphere and make Marit Lage on his end step. Game 3 I keep a hand with no permanent hate (just a Grip), Exploration, and assorted lands. I eventually draw Choke but hold it in hand for Show and Tell. He casts Show and puts in Omniscience (I put in Choke), then plays Blood Moon (!) off of it. I Grip Omniscience in response. What follows is a very long durdlefest where I try and draw a Grip and he doesn't do anything (all but one of his Islands were tapped under Choke and his fetches were Mountains). I eventually draw 2 Grips and a Trinisphere for backup, Gripping Moon end step and making Marit Lage. He attempts to fetch two Islands, realizes he only has one left in his deck and concedes. 2-1

Round 2 - Death and Taxes

My opponent wins the roll and plays Plains - go. I play Manabond into Tabernacle and Port and other lands. He draws lands and eventually sticks an Avenger and a Revoker (on Mox) through my double Port. Luckily, I immediately rip a fetch (Mox was my only colored source) and then a Loam. Loam + Manabond gets out of hand really quickly and we go to game 2. I board -2 Manabond, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Gamble for +4 Grip and Karakas (I think). Game two he has Thalia and I have Exploration. I take some beats and misplay a Crop Rotation (I got some irrelevant land instead of Tabernacle against his Vial + only 2 lands draw). I eventually Loam into Chasm and then Tabernacle wiping out most of his army. I assemble the combo and he concedes. 2-0

Round 3 - Miracles

Game one I keep a hand with too many lands that don't produce mana, which should have been a mulligan. I eventually resolve Exploration but don't find Loam or Wasteland until it's too late. I had 2 Ports and the combo but he had 3 white sources and a million cards in hand (plus counter-top and Jace) so I wasn't getting there. I board -3 Maze, -1 Punishing Fire, -1 Chasm, -1 Crop Rotation, -1 Wasteland, -1 Bojuka Bog for +4 Krosan Grip, +3 Choke, +1 Boseiju. Game two my opponent fails to draw his 4th land, and his 3rd gets Wasted while I have double Port. He concedes and we go on to an epic game 3. My Exploration gets Forced and I'm left with double Crop Rotation and lands. I draw Port and then Choke. He plays Meddling Mage on Loam which turns off my Loam in hand. He then slams counter-top and I play Choke which resolves. I get slowly beat down by Meddling Mage while I Port his non-Islands every turn. He counters a couple Punishing Fires. Eventually - at 3 life - I find Grove and bait the Counter-Top with Crop Rotation. I Fires the Mage, but unfortunately I don't have enough mana to Port as well and he plays a second Mage on Punishing Fire. I have two draw steps to draw Dark Depths and don't get there (it was the next card). I completely forgot about Meddling Mage and realized I should have left in a couple of Mazes here. Still a pretty fun match though. 1-2

Good enough for second and some store credit. I think my boarding against Miracles was questionable and I didn't leave in enough anti-creature tech. I also need to play Crop Rotation a little better - I didn't use it aggressively enough vs. Miracles and used it to find a superfluous Land vs. DnT.

EDIT: I also made an interesting misplay game 3 vs. Miracles. I had him locked down to only one available land (a Plains) so he could only top once per turn. When he went to Top on upkeep, I attempted to Punishing Fire his Mage only to realize he was floating a 2. If I had waited until after the Top activation resolved and then cast Fires before his draw, I likely would have killed the Mage and perhaps took the game.

[Dice_Box]

Updated. There is now more videos, I have changed the titles to just give names and decks played. I think this is cleaner and easier to understand. It also makes it simple to find the matchups that might be on your mind at the moment. Also added a DRS section with the Split second trick. If I missed anything please let me know.

[gigapatrick]

To barcode:

I see what you're saying, but we're in disagreement on this point. With Top in play, the default should be to Port them during draw because this forces them to use their mana right away to spin Top for their next turn. Doing it during upkeep simply gives them a free spin before they draw. I agree that there are situations in which Porting on upkeep and then Porting again on draw are optimal, like when they're about to Entreat (which forces them to flip their Top before their draw step so that they trigger Miracle), but I don't think this came up in any meaningful way.

[gigapatrick]

Hello all. A couple more videos:

Building a Fortress #4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpESjl_lWyQ)
Building a Fortress #5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYtKiAZxPk)

My play during these videos is . . . less than stellar. Have to make better decisions and be more mindful of clicking through steps. Anyway, enjoy.

[KIP_NZ]

To barcode:

I see what you're saying, but we're in disagreement on this point. With Top in play, the default should be to Port them during draw because this forces them to use their mana right away to spin Top for their next turn. Doing it during upkeep simply gives them a free spin before they draw. I agree that there are situations in which Porting on upkeep and then Porting again on draw are optimal, like when they're about to Entreat (which forces them to flip their Top before their draw step so that they trigger Miracle), but I don't think this came up in any meaningful way.

No Barcode is right, if you port them in their draw step they see an extra card.


Port in upkeep they see 3 cards which they've likely already seen EoT (3 cards)
Port in draw they see the 2 they've already seen on the top of the deck + 1 (4 cards)
Even if they brainstorm with the mana in draw they're seen 1+2+1 (4 cards)

[Morte]

This topic is covered by the primer too:

Tip: Versus a Sensei’s Divining Top, you should use the port-activation during the draw-step. The top-player will use top’s ability in response to the port-activation during upkeep, minimizing the loss of mana while setting up the draw. If you wait for the draw step, your opponent will have to pay anyway for his top, if he wants to set up his draw. After which you additionally port him.

Probably it should be pointed out which phase of the game is considered. Early game I usually find the situation considered by the primer: the Miracles player didn't activate top EoT because he had no mana left, and he will likely do it before drawing, hence porting during the draw step is the best line of play. That's not always true if he could activate top EoT: in this case, porting during draw step steals him one mana before he could play sorcery speed spells. If he uses that mana for top immediately, it's a mana lost anyway if he then uses cantrips, DTT or Jace.

[barcode]

This topic is covered by the primer too:

Tip: Versus a Sensei’s Divining Top, you should use the port-activation during the draw-step. The top-player will use top’s ability in response to the port-activation during upkeep, minimizing the loss of mana while setting up the draw. If you wait for the draw step, your opponent will have to pay anyway for his top, if he wants to set up his draw. After which you additionally port him.

Probably it should be pointed out which phase of the game is considered. Early game I usually find the situation considered by the primer: the Miracles player didn't activate top EoT because he had no mana left, and he will likely do it before drawing, hence porting during the draw step is the best line of play. That's not always true if he could activate top EoT: in this case, porting during draw step steals him one mana before he could play sorcery speed spells. If he uses that mana for top immediately, it's a mana lost anyway if he then uses cantrips, DTT or Jace.

Porting before main phase cuts off mana for sorceries. Most top users will use top end of turn. People who are hunting for cards will use it in their upkeep, before a draw but that is information we don't have because we can't see their hand. The safer assumption is to assume they have the cards they need (otherwise why did they keep the hand?) and it's better to disallow the extra card in their draw step from port. When they float mana, telegraphing brainstorm or dig through time it's best to let them cast it and then port additional lands. They were going to Dig anyways so why not let them port an additional land for you and then tag others in the next step.

That's how I play my ports. I'm not trying to convince people their playstyles are wrong, just offering my point of view.

[Chatto]

Question: it's your oponent's upkeep, he has priority. He asks if you want to use Port, which means you take priority. You keep priority till after he draws a card, so no Top-tricks... Right?

[barcode]

Question: it's your oponent's upkeep, he has priority. He asks if you want to use Port, which means you take priority. You keep priority till after he draws a card, so no Top-tricks... Right?

No. If he asks if you want to use your priority in upkeep and you say no, then your opponent will receive priority right after they draw their card. If you say yes and activate a port then your opponent will have priority to tap that land for mana and use top. Assuming they do nothing after using top you can act again. If you choose not to act then your opponent will receive priority immediately after drawing a card in their draw step.

The active player always receives priority first.

[Chatto]

That's what I said. I take priority, he draws a card without using Top.

[barcode]

You keep priority till after he draws a card


That's what I said. I take priority, he draws a card without using Top.

You don't "keep priority". Active player receives priority after drawing their card.

[Layalouhamesh]

In fact, it is not that either you or your opponent (active player) keeps priority after that. If he passes priority at upkeep and you pass it in return, then you move on to the next phase (draw) and the opponent gets priority since he is the active player.

To come back to the top trick. To my mind, you should do it at upkeep if your opponent used his top during your end phase, since he won't see more cards doing so (doing it during the draw phase would enable him to see one more card).

However, if he doesn't, then you have two cases:
* He uses it at upkeep : then you can port another land in response, since he won't have any benefit using his top again (unless fetch or equivalent).
* He doesn't use it at upkeep : in this case, you should use the port during the draw step, which would force him to use his top.
xxxx* If the opponent doesn't shuffle his deck during his turn or yours, it is strictly equivalent as using top during the end of your next turn, so you can then use your top during the next upkeep.
xxxx* If he shuffles his deck, he is very likely to use his top during your next end phase.

Obviously, this is only my opinion on the play, and there might be flaws in my reasoning. However, I feel that we should force the use of the top as soon as possible to make the opponent make wrong choices or forget about the cards (upkeep if already topped before, or draw to force the your-end-of-turn top to be performed 2 turns earlier)

[Darkgobs]

@ Chatto & Barcode:
You are pretty much saying the same thing. Yes, if the Top player asks you if you wanna do something, he gave you priority. So if you answer no, the game "automatically" goes to the draw step (so he indeed won't be able to activate top at upkeep, which was the important point of Chatto's observation here). And at the draw step, the Top player will recieve priority right after he drew, not you (barcode's point).

As noobish as it may sound, I never thought of this "trick" (which is more about knowing the rules of MtG ^^). Now I know, so thanks!