[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[ForlornEgoist]

What do you do if your Wish for Enchantress or whatever gets countered ? Boom a fearsome 2 for 1 in the face and an awful waste of time. I'd rather use any other card than doesn't give me such awful card disadvantage as a must counter. And how playing a potentially-countered Wish for Shusher is better than playing a non-counterable Shusher ? That's stupid, just play more Shusher SB+Guile.

And losing one turn against aggro isn't cool neither.

I dunno, what do you do if the protection (Moat, Grass, Confinement) gets countered after you've tutored it via Enlightened Tutor? True, E. Tutor does fetch out any enchant/artifact in the deck, however it also opens you up to card disadvantage unlike Wish (or in simpler terms, it makes you lose a turn). Majority of players who actually use counters opt to counter the card you tutor for, not the enabler. Both tutors in majority of situations will resolve, the difference being that Wish won't delay you a turn of card draw which can be critical. And given how much you advocate Shusher, I'd assume you'd want some way to get it online faster vs control decks, which Wish does enable.


Plus it completely destroys your SB....No really I don't get it. Why playing this card ? Instead of Mirri's Guile that increases your chances to get useful enchantments/enchantress effects, and/or Enlightened Tutor than can tutor half your deck and increases the number of enchantress's presence ?

Seeing as how majority of other Enchantress players (excluding me) give combo an auto-win and thus opt not to SB against them I can't imagine how 3-4 slots would "completely destroy the SB." All of the answers in our deck are universal to pretty much any threat: Moat/Grass for creatures, Confinement stops creatures/spells, O-ring/Halo deal with specific threats, and misc. cards like Ground Seal for GY or Karmic Justice for Enchantment-hate. I mean, honestly, how poorly are you doing against certain decks that you really need to dedicate all 15 slots to hate against specific situations.

As for Guile, yes it's extremely useful in fixing your draws. However, once you're past turns 4-5 and have 2+ Enchantress effects online it loses much of it's utility since any enchantment nets you 2+ cards, so really you're only digging 1 extra card deeper with Guile, and unlike Top it's only an upkeep-effect (no, I'm not advocating Top for Enchantress).

Forlorn Egoist

[adunakhor]

Well, I do know about the synergy our enchantments have and that's why I would not play the wishes instead of Grass/Confinement or even Guile, but in addition. Sorry, if I didnt' make that clear enough. Speaking of sufficient enough, have you never had situations where your Grass or Halo wasn't enough and you had no Confinement ready? Wishes are extra tutors that give you solutions for that extra turn you need to win.



Show and Tell+Kul ? Kinda bad MU ok but not that represented and I'd rather pay 4 for a Moat or 3 for a O-Ring than 1G+2W and 1W each turn for wishing a fragile Peacekeeper.

Please. Wastelands is way more played than Krosan Grip.


How is Moat gonna help you vs Emrakul? O-Ring won't help you, if they use Mosswort Bridge. Sure, it's not a common MU, but I was just giving examples where Wish is helpful, not a detailed pro and con list.



What do you do if your Wish for Enchantress or whatever gets countered ? Boom a fearsome 2 for 1 in the face and an awful waste of time. I'd rather use any other card than doesn't give me such awful card disadvantage as a must counter. And how playing a potentially-countered Wish for Shusher is better than playing a non-counterable Shusher ? That's stupid, just play more Shusher SB+Guile.


How is Enlightened Tutor no card disadvantage compared to Living Wish? :wink: It also take another draw to get the card you searched for.

What do you do, if your Enchantress gets countered? Search another one with Guile, right, or crack a Grove to find a Presence. However, running Wish enhances your chance to find one.

About Shusher: Of course you don't run a single Shusher in your SB --> that is indeed stupid.
Run 4, three to side in and one to Wish for --> again your chances to find the right card increase. What's not to like?

Anyhow, not trying to convince anyone, just pointing out the obvious. Wish will stay in my list for the time being, and in case I'll get the chance to play Legacy again next year, I'll provide some field reports.

[Dack]

I dunno, what do you do if the protection (Moat, Grass, Confinement) gets countered after you've tutored it via Enlightened Tutor? True, E. Tutor does fetch out any enchant/artifact in the deck, however it also opens you up to card disadvantage unlike Wish (or in simpler terms, it makes you lose a turn). Majority of players who actually use counters opt to counter the card you tutor for, not the enabler. Both tutors in majority of situations will resolve, the difference being that Wish won't delay you a turn of card draw which can be critical. And given how much you advocate Shusher, I'd assume you'd want some way to get it online faster vs control decks, which Wish does enable.


The difference is that if the Enlightened tutored card gets countered you still have ~5 other tutors to get it or you can just simply draw it. A Wish countered and you have only ~2 cards to get it and you can't draw it. So for such a crucial card as Argothian which solution, in terms of probability, which solution is better ? The 1st, obviously.
And ok, the Wish doesn't delay you, but please, a good U player won't be stupid enough not to counter the Wish if he could, for the reason above.

As for the Shusher, 3*SB + Guile + fetchs is has been enough for me to get them when I want.


I mean, honestly, how poorly are you doing against certain decks that you really need to dedicate all 15 slots to hate against specific situations.

I'm sorry, I haven't got a meta with only aggro and combo decks. I play seriously, and Legacy is a very wide format. So yeah my SB is tight.
And how poorly are you doing against aggro that you really need to put Glacial Chasm and Peacekeeper in SB...

[adunakhor]

And how poorly are you doing against aggro that you really need to put Glacial Chasm and Peacekeeper in SB...

Seriously, why exactly are you starting to get bitchy?

You don't like Wish, that's fine.
But like it or not: contrary to your opinion, lists with Wish produce results and that's a fact.

[Valtrix]

I think shusher is a pretty terrible card for this deck, as it's mostly useful against merfolk and little else. Why? Against any other deck you want it against they are going to be running targeted removal (probably swords) and probably mass removal too (EE, firespout, deed). Shusher just opens yourself up to turning these cards on even more by the opponent. What deck with counterspells are you really scared about? It's likely that you're only scared of decks running counterbalance, since most other decks won't be running enough countermagic for you to care about, in which case something like null rod, krosan grip, or heck even harmonic sliver, are probably stronger choices for you.


The difference is that if the Enlightened tutored card gets countered you still have ~5 other tutors to get it or you can just simply draw it. A Wish countered and you have only ~2 cards to get it and you can't draw it. So for such a crucial card as Argothian which solution, in terms of probability, which solution is better ? The 1st, obviously.
And ok, the Wish doesn't delay you, but please, a good U player won't be stupid enough not to counter the Wish if he could, for the reason above.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but your "statistical" argument is rather flawed. In your scenario that you have "~5 other tutors" to get a specific card is including sterling groves (I assume), but those groves are still present when you run wishes, so really you have the same amount of cards left to find something you want. See, the thing is that wishes fill a somewhat overlapping role, but not identical to enlightened tutor. If it did fill an identical role then you probably wouldn't need it. Wish allows you to have diversity. Now, it's possible that you can wish for an argothian and it gets countered. Sure, then you can't go ahead and wish for it again if you (happen to get) another wish, but you can easily go grab a win-con or a sanctum or whatever else you have in your board, all of which is still useful to you. Additionally, it's not as though you're designing your deck to critically need the wish effect--If it gets dealt with so what? You still have plenty of other options at your disposal.

It's somewhat funny, because when you state that a good U player will always want to counter the wish means that you're in a much better situation over enlightened tutor. Why? Because with enlightened tutor they know that they can easily counter anything you could tutor for, putting you back a card and more mana than the wish scenario.

[adunakhor]

See, the thing is that wishes fill a somewhat overlapping role, but not identical to enlightened tutor. If it did fill an identical role then you probably wouldn't need it. Wish allows you to have diversity.

Thank you! You have to be open to this idea to see it's benefit, though :cool:
About the statistical thing: He was talking about Replenish. Still a bogus argument as the SB options are for board situations you can't handle with the usual stuff. Diversity is key here!

Vexing Shusher is great in any Countertop MU, because it will help you to resolve at least one spell and that's quite often enough. Definitely a good choice vs Blue.

[Dack]

So you all think adding a Wish tech for 1 Argothian and aggro solutions is good. Ok but I don't.

And I wasn't the one who started being bitchy. But we apparently don't have the same meta.

[adunakhor]

And I wasn't the one who started being bitchy.

I didn`t realize I was being bitchy. English isn't my first language, so in case I was: no offense intended ;-)

Let's move on and forget about it.

[Dack]

Wasn't talking about you ^^

Anyway, please test those Wishes and tell me what comes from it.

[arcboundravager2]

so some silly news. at my weekly legacy tournament i put the lignify in the side bumping the 3rd replenish out and put a single genesis wave in the main for funsies. if you want to have some fun i HIGHLY recommend it. it was the lolz all night and i ended in third.

[ghettobaron]

Spoiled Card


Green Sun's Zenith XG
Sorcery (R)

Search your library for a green creature card with converted mana cost X or less and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle Green Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.

Far Far Far better than wish and tutor and doesnt require you to butcher your sb. Seems like it could be very powerful in Enchantress. With essentially 12 Enchantress effects theres no reason not to be able to cast an enchantress effect t2.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I haven't seen a full top 8 yet but goblins just won it's 2nd SCG in a row. The field may finally be ripe for Enchantress, if only it wasn't so damn hard to play the good version correctly.

Spoiled card seems interesting. Enchantress #9 @ 3 cmc and the option to grab Shusher post board but what spot does it go in if any?

[overseer1234]

Okay, it's been a while since Ive read this thread (like, sigil of the empty throne just got printed and everyone wa OMGWTF!!!!!!!)

But since when did we start playing freaking wishes and non enchantress creature's in this deck to fight controll????

Why oh why would you want to play vexing shusher instead of city of solitude???

And why the hell would you put wishes in the deck so you could find them better???

You already play sterling grove (I hope for your sake 4 times) so you don't need extra tutor's for city of solitude.
It's an enchantment so is gets grove protection
It doesn't make your business spells cost 1 more mana to keep them uncounterable



Owh, and about the new tutor:

you allready play 8 enchantress effect's + 4 tutor's + 3 mirri's guille

If you still can't find what you need by the time you need it in this deck then I thing you're doing something wrong......

[dontbiteitholmes]

Okay, it's been a while since Ive read this thread (like, sigil of the empty throne just got printed and everyone wa OMGWTF!!!!!!!)

But since when did we start playing freaking wishes and non enchantress creature's in this deck to fight controll????

Why oh why would you want to play vexing shusher instead of city of solitude???

And why the hell would you put wishes in the deck so you could find them better???

You already play sterling grove (I hope for your sake 4 times) so you don't need extra tutor's for city of solitude.
It's an enchantment so is gets grove protection
It doesn't make your business spells cost 1 more mana to keep them uncounterable



Owh, and about the new tutor:

you allready play 8 enchantress effect's + 4 tutor's + 3 mirri's guille

If you still can't find what you need by the time you need it in this deck then I thing you're doing something wrong......

@ Wishes- There are still plenty of people in this thread who don't agree with Wish MD, me included. I don't care what Tutor is getting I still think it's a waste of time.

@ Vexing Shusher- He's better than City of Solitude vs. Counterbalance which is the most relevant countering card vs. us. If they are playing Counterbalance all they need to do is counter City of Solitude to keep Top active and either way Counterbalance stays active. If we are playing Shusher instead they side out their creature removal and you can resolve crippling spells like Replenish, Blood Moon, Choke, or w/e without having to worry about counterspells. With City Counterspell into FoW > all of those plays. Short of it is City can be countered and dies to Grip (without Grove of course) while Shusher dies to everything they usually sideboard out and can't be countered. Another thing which is crucial is the Vexing Shusher + Dovescape combo which makes it virtually impossible to lose the control match if you land it (and is quite easy to land with Shusher on the table). Seriously it's something I playtested quite a bit when I picked up the deck last year after taking a 4 year break from Magic and Shusher is hands down better than every other option I tried. We don't have to worry about that 1 extra mana as much as other decks because of 8x Growth effects and dropping uncounterable Shusher into uncounterable Choke is a real back breaker vs. control.

@ New Tutor- One of the reasons 3x Mirri's Guile is so good is that it finds Enchantress effects when you don't open with one or when your first one gets countered. It's worth testing to see if maybe 1x or 2x new tutor is worth playing as Enchantress's #9-10. It could turn out that it's worse than Guile since Guile is good for more than just finding Enchantress but more than anything else I've seen the past 2 blocks it's worth testing.

[arcboundravager2]

Okay, it's been a while since Ive read this thread (like, sigil of the empty throne just got printed and everyone wa OMGWTF!!!!!!!)

But since when did we start playing freaking wishes and non enchantress creature's in this deck to fight controll????

Why oh why would you want to play vexing shusher instead of city of solitude???

And why the hell would you put wishes in the deck so you could find them better???

You already play sterling grove (I hope for your sake 4 times) so you don't need extra tutor's for city of solitude.
It's an enchantment so is gets grove protection
It doesn't make your business spells cost 1 more mana to keep them uncounterable



Owh, and about the new tutor:

you allready play 8 enchantress effect's + 4 tutor's + 3 mirri's guille

If you still can't find what you need by the time you need it in this deck then I thing you're doing something wrong......

^this

[Masamune]

How about with Living Wish take Karakas against Sneak'n'Show deck? Glacil Chasm and Confinement isn't so good because Emrakul does it own abilitie to sac six permanents even if damage is prevent :[

[arcboundravager2]

How about with Living Wish take Karakas against Sneak'n'Show deck? Glacil Chasm and Confinement isn't so good because Emrakul does it own abilitie to sac six permanents even if damage is prevent :[

uh whatever this meant^
but seriously though karakas doesnt stop them. they do play other threats that karakas doesnt bounce and if you dont have an enchantress and youre wishing for a karakas you probably lose

[Masamune]

uh whatever this meant^
but seriously though karakas doesnt stop them. they do play other threats that karakas doesnt bounce and if you dont have an enchantress and youre wishing for a karakas you probably lose

So...what we gonna do? Enlightned Tutor + Needle?

[arcboundravager2]

So...what we gonna do? Enlightned Tutor + Needle?

its an option, but sneak attacak is such a small portion of the meta i feel like you can just lose to that and be strong against almost everything ele. also turn 2 aura of silence isnt terrible

[Quark.Nova]

If working with a wishboard, would Squee, Goblin Nabob make eventually make sense? In some cases he might be useful to keep Solitary Confinement online.

[Masamune]

If working with a wishboard, would Squee, Goblin Nabob make eventually make sense? In some cases he might be useful to keep Solitary Confinement online.

The problem isn't take many cards kept in hand to ful S. Confinement, but how we would win the game using the Naboo and still not drawing nothing every turn...

[Masamune]

BTW...someone tested Green Sun's Zenith? I'm running four of then, but I'm thinking to back down. I'd rather Living Wishes because I could take outside my precious Sanctum and also creatures like Faerie Macabre. Despite GSZ can take Gaddoks (against most combo decks) and often Argothians.
I hate draw GSZ in late game... return itself to deck is terrible :S

[wcm8]

4 may be too many. Perhaps 2 or 3? The goal is to have an Enchantress effect by turn 2 and Zenith is faster than a Living Wish in that regard. To make it slightly more useful you can run 1 Dryad Arbor in place of a forest. I think Zenith is a powerful tool, but Enchantress doesn't want to dilute its own gameplan too much by running a bunch of toolbox creatures just because it has a tutor. Other decks can capitalize on Zenith better.

Chance of having one Enchantress in opening 7 if you have x of them in your deck:
8 - 65%
9 - 70%
10 - 74%
11 - 78%
12 - 81%

This is ignoring the rest of the hand, so it is not factoring in whether you'll actually have enough lands or auras to cast them. But you can see there is a diminishing effect the more you add, with the 'sweet spot' being 11 (in my opinion). So until they print another Enchantress, 3 Zenith seems to be the best way to make the deck more consistent.

[Masamune]

4 may be too many. Perhaps 2 or 3? The goal is to have an Enchantress effect by turn 2 and Zenith is faster than a Living Wish in that regard. To make it slightly more useful you can run 1 Dryad Arbor in place of a forest. I think Zenith is a powerful tool, but Enchantress doesn't want to dilute its own gameplan too much by running a bunch of toolbox creatures just because it has a tutor. Other decks can capitalize on Zenith better.

Chance of having one Enchantress in opening 7 if you have x of them in your deck:
8 - 65%
9 - 70%
10 - 74%
11 - 78%
12 - 81%

This is ignoring the rest of the hand, so it is not factoring in whether you'll actually have enough lands or auras to cast them. But you can see there is a diminishing effect the more you add, with the 'sweet spot' being 11 (in my opinion). So until they print another Enchantress, 3 Zenith seems to be the best way to make the deck more consistent.

Hmmm...I don't know...we can draw too many cards for instace with just two echantress effects. A single Living Wish can itself make our game strong, taking in advantage Sanctum and an Eramkul or even Iona. GSZ in late is very bad...I realize this option just make sense when Mirri's Guile is there open our choices better to take any card. With shuffle effect I figure out that GSZs appears every time when itself return to deck.... yep I hate when it happens

[wcm8]

Using gsz in conjuction with guile is good. Even if zenith is just saying "g: shuffle your library", it will have some potential late-game utility. If you're worried about it coming back as a dead draw later, pitch it to confinement or imprint on Chrome Mox. And as I mentioned before, running a dryad arbor or two can still make zenith usable. (random idea: post-board natural order as a surprise play??)

Late game, I agree that the flexibity of wish is stronger, but the concern is getting to the late game. Against aggro you need to develop your board fast, and against control, they can just counter wish or even potentially the card you wish for. Wish is just so slow and clunky early on.

Enchantress is the 'bluest not-actually-blue' deck in legacy. Think of mirri's guile and gsz as being like ponder and brainstorm for other combo decks. Without an enchantress, winning is incredibly hard. Increasing the chances of reliably having one by turn two is going to make this deck much better, and some casual testing has confirmed my assumptions about gsz. It just needs to be taken to a tournament and put up some results.

[TheSleeper]

My early goldfishing shows GSZ as a one-of is a decent addition. It won't move the deck into Tier 1 status, but does help you get Argothian(s) when you draw it. I wouldn't run more than one though: it shuffles in, we only have 4 creatures in the deck (and don't *need* all 4 in in play), and we need a critical mass of enchantments.

FWIW this is what I'm testing:
// Lands
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
3 [B] Plains (2)
8 [B] Forest (2)

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [B] Wild Growth
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
1 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 [UD] Replenish
1 [ON] Words of War
1 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
1 [OD] Ground Seal
2 [TE] Mirri's Guile
1 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Ground Seal
SB: 2 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 2 [8E] Choke
SB: 1 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [DDD] Lignify
SB: 1 [DIS] Dovescape
SB: 1 [8E] Blood Moon

[wcm8]

Why would you play Dovescape without vexing shusher? No Moat? Also, I don't think you really need that many (or even any) ground seals. Otherwise the list looks good.

[anonymos]

Why would you play Dovescape without vexing shusher? No Moat? Also, I don't think you really need that many (or even any) ground seals. Otherwise the list looks good.

I play dovescape without shusher. I've been Earwig Squad'd to the point of keeping a 4th win condition around for just in case of the squad. Anyone who cares can see my newest list in Brians article today (2/1/2011). It really hasn't changed much.

On the game 3 Deed, I hadn't seen it in either games 1 or 2 and had Karmic Justice in for game 2. Didn't see anythnig that had justified it, so it came back out for choke. Bit me in the butt that did.

I purposely replenished into the spellbomb near the end. I wanted to be able to build up defensive enchants in GY in case I drew the last replenish in time.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/extended/21046_Vintage_AvantGarde_Looking_Local_Wednesday_Night_Legacy.html <-- Link for the lazy. Scroll down to top 8.

[ForlornEgoist]

Went 4-1 at a tourney yesterday. Here's my list:


4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
6 Forest
3 Plains

2 Replenish
3 Living Wish

3 Argothian Enchantress

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
2 Ground Seal
2 Runed Halo
4 Sterling Grove
1 Karmic Justice
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Enchantress's Presence

1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Null Rod
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Uwr Intuition Countertop 2-0
Game 1: I knew what he was playing since he's been using it the past 4 weeks, so I kept an initial hand of: Fetch, Fetch, Argothian, Living Wish, Grove, Growth, Sprawl. Essentially how this MU broke down is he countered my first 2 Enchantress effects, dropped an Elspeth, and beat me down to 3 While also resolving Countertop. I managed to wear out his counters, resolves an Enchantress/Solitary, O-Ring the Countertop, and went off. He nearly won it with Jace. Got it to 13 counters and passed. I attempted to O-Ring but he hardcast a FoW (2 cards left in hand and he was tapped out). I then Wished a Shusher, cast it. He attempts to FoW, I use Shusher's ability, then a Replenish. Yeah, close one. O.O
SB: -1 Replenish, -2 Runed Halo, +3 Null Rod
Game 2: He managed to keep me off 4, count 'em 4 Enchantress's. Apparantly he got some very bad draws because he Topped incessantly, cracked 7 fetches, and cast 7 draw spells. I managed to top deck a Sigil and cast some enchantments beating him down to 4 w/tokens. He then top decks and EE and gets a lock on my board. After stalling for several turns by dropping threatening enchantments to him I manage to get him to tap out all his mana with no cards in hand. I then Living Wish for Bog, removing EE, and proceed to swing for lethal with an Angel.

Dredge 2-0

White Stax 0-2
Game 1: He T1 Flagstones of Trokair and passes. I immediately asked him: "Don't you feel dirty for playing that deck?" to which he responded, "Yeah, I kinda do." I T1 Forest->Growth. He T2 3sphere. I spent 1-2 turns doing nothing, then he drops Baneslayer, I Halo it. From here essentially I only get 1 Argothian and top deck allot of useless stuff while he draws nothing but Suppression Field and Ghostly Prisons (got 3 Field and a play set of Prisons out :P). Eventually I manage to get a decent enough field to make good use of Sanctum. I O-Ring 3 sphere and the 0-counter Stax. I have 5 mana in the pool. I Wish->Iona and pass. This was a stupid thing to do. Next turn he Armageddon's, recurs Mishras, and wins. If I had just Wished for Teeg I could have stopped him from playing Stax/Geddon/Wrath.
SB: -2 Ground Seal, +2 Null Rod I felt the Null Rod at least would be slightly more useful since it stops Mishra pumps/Moxes.
Game 2: I T1 Fetch->Forest->Sprawl. He T1 Crucible. I T2 Wish->Teeg. He T2 Stax. Dammit.

The Rock 2-1
Every couple of weeks this guy picks a deck that puts up Top 8 results, so I assumed he was playing Rock still since he played it last week.
Game 1: T1 Fetch->Scrub->Thoughtseize verifies this. Fetch, Fetch, Argothian, Growth, Sprawl, Grove, WoW. He nets Argothian. I T1 Fetch, pass. He T2 Hymns hitting a newly drawn Presence and a Grove. Awesome. Luckily I draw/drop an Argothian, and manage to draw into a second Enchantress meanwhile he dropped Goyf/Bob/KotR. I then drop a Sigil rather than go for a long haul and try to mass tokens asap (since I saw 3 MD Deed last week). Luckily he doesn't draw into a Deed and I get there with tokens.
SB: -2 Runed Halo, -1 Replenish, -1 Wish, +4 Leyline of Sanctity.
Game 2: I mull to 4 because of bad hands. Didn't even see a Leyline. He Thoughtseizes away a Grove, drops a Mox->Waste, Extirpates it. He sees the Wishes, jokingly asks me if that's the new tech, and starts naming off cards I could Wish for. He essentially named off all the cards but I don't verify this. He then drops a KotR/Goyf, and swings for Lethal 2 turns later.
Game 3: I begin the game with 2 Leylines in play (he kept a hand with Thoughtseize/2 Hymns/KGrip :P). I Fetch->Forest->Growth. He passes. I Forest, Argothian, pass. He drops 2nd land and passes. From here there are a bunch of misc. things that happen but basically it breaks down to me getting 2 Enchantress's, him Kgriping a Grove, and me winning via a Wished Iona->White.

Deadguy Ale 2-0

Overall Living Wish definitely found use in all of my MU's; I found myself wanting to tutor Bojuka Bog in nearly every MU at some point. I love Iona and definitely like her earlier playability as opposed to Emrakul, but I ran into similar issues with her as I did with Emrakul in that by the time I could reasonably afford to cast her I had already won the game. I'm considering running Peacekeeper in the SB for aggro (since I can't afford Moat or Tabernacle --').

There were numerous instances yesterday where I was wishing I had a tutor beyond Sterling. So, I think I'll do some play testing with Wish and E. Tutor (maybe 3 Wish and 2 Tutor), possibly removing 1 Replenish/1 Karmic. Leyline definitely pulled its weight yesterday against Rock and Deadguy. Discard is extremely annoying for us early game, and Leyline essentially removing their discard was a huge factor in my beating both decks. While I don't think the Savannah's are necessarily needed, I definitely plan to add a Plateau as a 1-of since often times I found myself wish that Taiga tapped for white rather than green.

On a random note I've had an amusing time seeing my friends play my deck at tournaments. Often times I saw them recieve a game loss because they drew cards they weren't supposed to; ah to be a young Enchantress player. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Sorry I don't have the Dredge/Deadguy MU posted right this second but I literally spent the past hour or so typing up this report and then accidently deleted it, so I had to retype it all. I don't have the energy to immediately retype Dredge/Deadguy, but I'll get back to it in maybe half an hour. :P

Forlorn Egoist

[TheSleeper]

Why would you play Dovescape without vexing shusher? No Moat? Also, I don't think you really need that many (or even any) ground seals. Otherwise the list looks good.

I prefer a more pure build without any non-Argothian creatures/wishes (though both versions have shown they are capable of putting up results). We already have so many threats that a Blue-mage needs to counter: Enchantress-effects, City of Solitude, Choke, Replenish. Its rare they can keep up with you (granted it can happen). My logic is that if they have a FoW, then your City/Wish are both countered regardless, although at least City might have drawn you a card and can be Replenished. If they don't have a counterspell, then City is just as good as Wish-for-Shusher (actually better because again it can draw you a card and costs overall less mana). Its probably a flex slot so each to their own.

While I was using Dovescape as an additional threat vs Control, its actually very strong in the Enchantress mirror (a few people have the deck in my area). Unless they are running something random like Emrakul, if you cast it when you're ahead in Enchantress effects, they basically can't win. I would love to play Moat but I don't own one. I think the deck can get there without it, even if its stronger with it. As for Ground Seal I love it and would always play a couple. From Dredge to Loam/Lands to EE-recursion, it really shuts down a lot of strategies as well as drawing a bonus card.

Forlorn: Congrats on your finish and cheers for the report - I enjoyed it! I've been tossing up whether a playset of Leylines was worth it, but as you say early discard is so good against us, and having a tool that negates this and stuff opponents starting hands is great.

[ghettobaron]

Anyone else having serious problems against zoo? Qasali Pridemage really wrecks you since you usually get the lock at low life and unless you get grove+enchantress+confinement out pridemage is gg.

[anonymos]

The trick is to make them waste their pridemages or set yourself up with multiple defensive pieces. They are only going to draw 1 or 2 in a game. It's a matter of comfort with your list. I play a bit confinement heavy as a result of zoo being popular at home.

[wcm8]

Humility is worth considering for a slot in the sideboard. Granted, it's 4 mana, but it will solve the creature problem.

[arcboundravager2]

Humility is worth considering for a slot in the sideboard. Granted, it's 4 mana, but it will solve the creature problem.

no it wont. the creatures will still be applying pressure, just less. you know whats 4 mana, solves creatures, and doesn't turn off enchantress? moat

[wcm8]

I use Moat in the main and humility in the sideboard to bring in vs decks running tons of utility creatures/Emrakul. Humility obviously is just a further lock piece, because it hampers your own development too.

[Masamune]

...
Anyway...what position do you take? IMO Aura of Silence is slight better than Null Rod against Staxes... MindBreak trap is good, but running 4 Leylines you could taking any time precious slots in future replacing it with: +1 Karmic Justice, +1 Serra's Sactum (often we have argothian and all we need, and a lot of mana pool to spent again to accelerate is a perfect way) and even +1 Emrakul (I hate control decks and I love to kill then with these biggesty bodies). Wheathever U want to run... your matches were great :]

[ForlornEgoist]

I honestly wasn't expecting Stax and normally I don't encounter it so I never bother to build a SB to stop it. I really wasn't keen on the Null Rods in that MU but I decided that I'd rather have that than Ground Seal at the time.

I don't have a 3rd Sanctum otherwise I'd most likely keep it in the SB (although Tabernacle would be better ;P).

The problem with Emrakul is that while he does screw over the control player by the time you ramp to 15 you've already won. If you have that prominent a board position where Sanctum can ramp you up to where you need then winning shouldn't be an issue. Iona accomplishes about the same thing in the control MU only she is more reasonably cast. She has evasion, shuts my opponent off a color, and jumps above Deed and EE which are currently seeing more and more play.

Forlorn Egoist

[grahf]

So I played Enchantress in a small local tournament... and Junk utterly eviscerated me. He went something like T1 Mox+Hymn, T2 Hymn+Thoughtseize, T3 Vindicate my only land... I had no chance. Would Leyline of Sanctity be worth bringing in to combat heavy discard? (I don't currently own any) Any other good sideboard tech for this matchup?

[ForlornEgoist]

Leyline is pretty much our best defense against Rock/Junk as it disables their 8-10 discard spells and forces them to search for either Deed or Vindicate if they want to be able to slow us down. You may also want to consider running a MD Karmic Justice and perhaps 1 SB. GY hate can also be viable here as it weakens KotR/Goyf, although few Enchantress builds really opt for GY hate beyond Ground Seal.

You could even go so far as to use Null Rod to disable Mox/SDT as their deck relies heavily on SDT to fix draws/Bob (8 fetches/KotR for lots of shuffling fun). Null Rod, however, I would said has an incredibly low priority and realistically I doubt I would ever side-in Null Rod.

Rock/Junk typically side in some combination of the following: Deed/EE, Diabolic Edict, Krosan Grip, Extirpate and Engineered Plague.

I'm sure there are other things I'm forgetting, but this what I could think of at the top of my head.

Forlorn Egoist

[ESG]

So I played Enchantress in a small local tournament... and Junk utterly eviscerated me. He went something like T1 Mox+Hymn, T2 Hymn+Thoughtseize, T3 Vindicate my only land... I had no chance. Would Leyline of Sanctity be worth bringing in to combat heavy discard? (I don't currently own any) Any other good sideboard tech for this matchup?

Leyline of Sanctity is probably best, since it preserves your hand from the beginning and has benefits in several other matchups. If you frequently run into decks with heavy black, you might add Compost to your sideboard. Karmic Justice and Replenish are important in this matchup.

[Mono_Thematic]

Hi all, I'm new to enchantress but I've taken it for a couple of spins in MWS which has lead to a couple of questions:
1) I'm probably gonna get kicked in the nuts for asking this, but what does Solitary Confinement actually add? Seems like everytime I played it I was already in a stable position that didn't need anymore lock effects. The other times that I drew it I wasn't in a position to support it, so it ended up as a dead card. To this end I'm testing -3 SC and +1 runed halo +2 story circle. These seem to cover all the bases that SC normally covers, but they do so on their own merits. I assume I'm over looking something but so far I've had no problems with this.
2) Is the red splash for WoW really worth it? I know it's only a minor splash, but for the same cc as WoW you could have Sacred Mesa which wins games just as instantly. I know that WoW prevents you from decking yourself, but realistically Sacred Mesa will force a GG upon resolution. The only problem that I see with the mesa is that without Serra's Sanctum getting enough W-mana to go crazy with it is difficult.

[wcm8]

Solitary Confinement is the card that makes you win. Most opponents scoop to a stable confinement lock. It demands an answer before your opponent can really do anything, and by that point you should be pumping out angels or burning them to death. Story circle is sooooo slow. Versus zoo, for example, you need to able to quickly stop their creatures and burn. Confinement does both.

Im hoping that was an honest question and youre not trolling, because even if you played just one game the reason for the card should be clear. Enchantress without confinement would be tier 3 at best, more like a casual joke deck.

I would play a second Sigil before I'd play sacred Mesa. Words of war and blood moon make the splash well worth it though.

[Mono_Thematic]

It was, and still is, an honest question. Lets just look at an ideal situation against Zoo:
T1 = land + Utopia Spawl (5 cards in hand
T2 = land + Enchantress's Presense (4 cards in hand
T3 = land + Solitary Confinement (4 cards in hand
You've stabilized. But your in a position where you're -2 cards per turn (no draw phase, and upkeep cost to SC) with only 1 enchantress in play and 4 cards in hand. Can you win from here? Sure. But you're digging your way out of a deep hole. If they pridemage your Confinement, then you're down alot of cards/answers.
Instead imagine that Solitary Confinement is Story Circle (Green). You've only got 1 mana left open to stop their biggest fatty, but next turn you're untapped with 5 cards. From then onward its card advantage city. If on the other hand they pridemage your Circle, you still have a full hand of answers.

It just seems that confinement is too high commitment. Without a Grove to protect it and another enchantress to support it, then its a fragile lock.
I will continue to test both builds, though. As I am admittedly still new to this deck.

[ForlornEgoist]

Granted you typically need +2 Enchantress effects to support SC, but you also need to look at the downsides of Story Circle.

Firstly, to use it effectively you need to keep mana in reserve, meaning you're giving up the ability to develop a board position. After we stabilize past turns 4-6 we typically beat aggro. Story Circle, while stopping early attackers better than SC (due to us not losing -2 cards) it doesn't stop them from dropping more attackers meaning if we want to live we have to dedicate more and more mana to keeping them from killing us. SC, however, only requires us sacrifice a draw/upkeep cost which is neglible if we get good draws off 1 Enchantress or have 2+ Enchantress's online.

Secondly, Story Circle only prevents damage. It doesn't stop effects such as Tendrils of Agony which are life loss and, more importantly, it doesn't prevent you from being targeted by cards such Diabolic Edict , Jace, the Mind Sculptor, discard, burn, etc.

Overall Story Circle just requires much more investment on your part than SC does. Yeah, SC sucks when you only have 1 Enchantress effect on the field, but we're MDing 4 Argothian/Enchantress + 4 Sterling Grove +2-3 Enlightened Tutor. With this number of effects/tutors you shouldn't have any problem covering the meager upkeep costs of SC.

Forlorn Egoist

[Mono_Thematic]

Granted you typically need +2 Enchantress effects to support SC

See this goes back to my original post: by the time I get SC online I'm already at turn 5+ which is far to late to be stabilizing (either I'm dead or the opp has gas'ed). I'd much rather drop a single enchantress on T2 then start dropping answers on T3-T5 while still accruing cards off the enchantress.


but you also need to look at the downsides of Story Circle

I agree entirely with everything you just said. Thats why I only run 2 circles. But then again I back it up with 2 O-rings, Leylines (MB), Journey to nowhere, runed halo, and ghostly prison and 3 elephant grass. So while I'm reserving some mana for the Circle each turn I'm also answering threats (or whole swarms) with the rest of the mana. Its a battle of attrition that I win because I got the Enchantess to 2-for-1 them everytime.


With this number of effects/tutors you shouldn't have any problem covering the meager upkeep costs of SC.

Its not that simple and you know it. Enchantress's get thoughtseized, Tutors get Dazed, Groves get K.Gripped. Assuming your going to perfectly ramp enchantress -> enchantress -> confinement is a good way to be disappointed fast. Thats why I prefer to play under the assumption that I'm gonna get disrupted, so my top-deck had better not suck.

[grahf]

It's true that playing Solitary Confinement very early is usually not sustainable. Sometimes though it's necessary to do so inorder to stay alive. And don't forget that you have 2-3 Replenishes. I often use Confinement like an Orim's Chant - stall for a turn or two, decline to pay the upkeep and let it die, then Replenish it back later.

Confinement is like Ivory Mask + Moat in a single card, for less mana than either. No other card can do that.

Mono_Thematic, could we see the list you're testing with Story Circles? We could make more informed criticisms, seeing the whole picture that you're working with.

Forlorn Egoist and ESG: Thanks for the advice on Rock/Junk. I do have one Karmic Justice in my 75, but finding it early game is not always easy. I'll definitely be getting some Leylines.

[Mono_Thematic]

Other than what I already mentioned, I think my build is pretty standard. But without further ado:

Land
4 plains
4 forest
4 savannah
4 windswept heath
1 verdant catacombs
1 marsh flats
2 serra's sanctum
Other mana bits
4 utopia spawl
4 wild growth
Auto-Includes
4 argothian enchantress
4 enchantress's presense
4 sterling grove
Defense
3 elephant grass
2 ghostly prison
2 story circle
2 oblivion ring
2 seal of cleansing
2 journey to nowhere
2 runed halo
2 leyline of sanctity
Livin' on a Prayer
1 replenish
Kill-Con
2 sigil of the empty throne
1 sacred mesa

[ESG]

Mono_Thematic, what have you tested against besides Zoo? And, roughly, in how many games have you tested the stock list and the Story Circle list? How did those games go?

[Mono_Thematic]

@ESG: I see where this is going and let me just skip to the punch-line (albeit for the third time): I'm new to this deck. So if you know of some match-ups where Confinement is absolutely irreplacable, than please tell me as I originally came to this thread meerly equipped with a question. So far the only answers I've received are that saves you from death, which is a fair statement. But what I want to know is whether it saves me like Force of Will or whether it saves me like Foil (one mana cheaper, but a sick card sink).


Confinement is like Ivory Mask + Moat in a single card

Precisely true. But either Moat or Mask could be played T3 (with or without an enchantress to back it up) without having to sweat the disadvantages of confinement. The only deck that I can think of that would require both Mask and Moat effects is Zoo, and yet we've already established that a Confinement doesn't come on line until far too late to be of any lasting benefit.

[Nonex]

I would compare the damage prevention effect with Glacial Chasm rather than Moat, but it's ok as long as we understand each other. The fact is that there are matchups where you don't need Ivory Mask, and there are others where Moat is useless instead, but it's practically impossible to find a competitive Legacy deck that kills without dealing damage or targetting you in some way. The fact that Solitary Confinement has two separate effects so that at least one of them will be relevant no matter what you are playing against is what makes it shine.

The deck can actually be divided into some recognizable parts: a draw engine, some finishers, Solitary Confinement, and a bunch of cards that slow down your opponent's game or buy turns for you to assemble a Confinement lock.

[ESG]

So if you know of some match-ups where Confinement is absolutely irreplacable, than please tell me.

All of them. I can't even conceive of a situation I would board it out in. Solitary Confinement has the power to shut down pretty much every way the opponent can kill you: Progenitus, buncha goblins, burn to the head, lotsa zombies, Tendrils of Agony, Brain Freeze, a team of merfolk, an ultimate Jace, a huge Knight or Terravore, Stroke of Genius, Mindslaver, Grindstone, Earthquake for 20 -- everything short of, I suppose, some symmetrical mass-draw effect, like Prosperity. It does not win the game on its own, but it often keeps you alive long enough to win.

Also, we have NOT established that Solitary Confinement is too slow in the Zoo matchup. You offered a series of plays that showed it was too slow. That's one scenario out of billions. Yes, sometimes it is too slow. Sometimes it's not. That's why we test things.

I am all for people testing different strategies, so feel free to run cards other than Confinement. Maybe they will work out for you. Maybe they won't. Try them in different matchups. Let us know your thoughts when you've tested ~50 games with Confinement and ~50 games without Confinement.

[Mono_Thematic]

I've been testing both builds alot over the last couple of days, and I'm still convinced that confinement is too slow but I don't think circle is a suitable replacement. The aggro is ridiculous with Zoo, Boros beatdown (steppe lynx and goblin guide attacking on turn 2 with lightning bolt back up = fun), and artifact beatdown (first turn lodestone golem, sure why not) making goblins look like a cakewalk. Its a mad world out there.

So for now I'm going to take my own advise and run -2 circles and +2 moats. This then makes ghostly prison reduntant, so -2 prison -> +1 replenish +1 enlightened tutor to hopefully combat all the CB-Top locks and recurring EE. Though mainboarding pithing needle is tempting, I know thats only because I'm all hot and bothered over some clutch-losses.

Anyways thats me, take it or leave it.

[wcm8]

Here's my list. Give it a try. I have been playing the deck for over a year now and have tested multiple configurations and various cards. I am not saying that this is the be-all end-all list, but it's pretty close to what I would consider optimized given the current meta and card pool.


20 lands
(5 fetch, 2 savannah, 1 taiga, 2 sanctum, 8 forest, 2 plains)
8 argothian enchantress/presence
7 wild growth/utopia sprawl
4 sterling grove

3 mirri's guile
1 green sun's zenith
4 elephant grass
3 solitary confinement
1 moat
2 replenish
2 oblivion ring
1 lignify
1 runed halo
1 sigil of the empty throne
1 words of war
1 choke

Sb
3 vexing shusher
1 dovescape
1 blood moon
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 aura of silence
1 karmic justice
1 enlightened tutor
4 leyline of sanctity
2 flex slots for expected meta

Vexing shusher is definitely the best option to bring in vs counterbalance and other blue decks. Mirri's Guile should probably be considered a 'must' for this deck by now. I would go with as safe of a mana base as possible, running 20 lands and 10 basics gives you remarkable resiliency vs wasteland. You really don't want to be enchanting duals with your auras.

[Dack]

Vexing shusher is definitely the best option to bring in vs counterbalance and other blue decks. Mirri's Guile should probably be considered a 'must' for this deck by now.

+1000.

Also, could you give us some feedbacks about this Green Sun's Zenith. Maybe 1* isn't enough ? Did you feel any difference playing it ? And has the Blood Moon really been decisive for you, because it always came way too late in my tests...Even with randoms Enlightened Tutor (who are pretty hard to fit in now).

[wcm8]

1 gsz seems to be enough to improve the chance of getting an enchantress on board in a timely matter. Too many clog the deck up though. I board it out versus blue decks usually, because it is an easy spell pierce target. I also don't play tutor in the main because getting 2-for-1'd really sucks.

When blood moon is good, it is -really- good. G2 your opponent will probably be fetching duals recklessly, and once you can ensure that it will resolve, the effect can be back-breaking.

The deck is still hopeless vs. combo, but with aggro strategies taking over and combo on the decline, now is a good time to play Enchantress. Zoo lists have also commonly opted to drop steppe lynx and user higher cc spells, making that matchup even easier.

Peacekeeper in the board might be a good surprise for g2 vs. some decks, since a lot of opponents may side out removal.

Null rod may deserve consideration for the mud deck and affinity.

[Masamune]

Hi there, could anyone please tell me why run Dovescape in current SB? Against control decks? Would be more specific about it?
@wcm8
Ur list is very nice IMO... I would play with -1 Oblivion, +1 Karmic Justic MD and the another open slots: 2 Auras of Silence. Its a bomb when we face our bad matches like TES, mirror matches and even Affinity decks...

[wcm8]

Dovescape trumps control decks, especially if you have a Vexing Shusher out. You get the tokens -and- resolve your own spells.

[Masamune]

Dovescape trumps control decks, especially if you have a Vexing Shusher out. You get the tokens -and- resolve your own spells.

Ok, but I'd rather my Chokes ^^ What do you think?

[Hisa]

So, I played in a local legacy tournament yesterday with about 35 people. I finished second and figured I'd put up a list and a quick rundown of my matches.


Round 1 UBW Counter Top with Thopter/Sword of the Meek
Game one - I play some cards that he one-for-ones and manage to kill him with Words of War shortly after he assembles sword/foundry.
Game two - An early blood moon turns him off for more than long enough for me to get set up. Match goes to time after I land Sigil and Words and he's gaining 9 a turn with thopter/sword. I'm pretty sure I win if time isn't called.

Match 1-0
1-0

Round 2 Rb Goblins
Game one - I keep an incredibly speculative hand, and don't get there.
Game two - Goes pretty much to plan. I stick an Elephant Grass on the right turn and a Runed Halo on Siege Gang the turn after. He scoops after I get two draw effects and Solitary on the board.
Game three - He gets ready to come over for 18 points on turn three. You know what beats that? Elephant Grass. The card buys me infinite time until I can get a stable lock.
Match 2-1
2-0

Round 3 Mono-R Goblins
Game one - More little red men? Yes please. He plays some guys. I play a moat. He scares me a bit with some Kiki-Jiki / Sharpshooter shenagans, but I stick the Solitary with plenty of breathing room and Angel him out.
Game two - More of the same. Turns out goblins don't fly, so Moat is pretty sweet. There is never a point in any of these games where I feel like I am close to losing.
Match 2-0
3-0

Round 4 - U/R Sneak and Tell
Game one - Turn two Emrakul? Sweet.
Game two - He goes off turn three with a Progenitus. He gets a hit in and then I stabilize with an Elephant Grass and a Choke and some other stall that makes him stare at me for five turns. I let the grass fall and tap out for a second Enchantress effect and a Solitary with the Grove for the hard lock in my hand. He rips his card, shrugs, lays the Sneak Attack he's been holding and pops in the Terastodon (the only one in his deck) that he ripped, kills some stuff and swings with Progenitus for the win.
Match 0-2
3-1

Round 5 - Rgw Goyf Sly (zoo)
Game one - He attacks me with some guys, I stabilize behind a Moat and Words of War (for his Grim Lavamancer) while I look for the lock. I get greedy and decide to hold Solitary for a turn before I assemble Voltron and he punishes me for it by hiting me with three or four burn spells in the face to finish me off.
Game two / three - My notes are shit, but these games are similar. He burns me quick and attacks me with dudes, and I fight back with some combination of Moat / Elephant Grass / Solitary / Leyline. I really like two copies of Leyline in this match, because there are so many red instants in the opposite deck. Moat / Elephant Grass just isn't enough for a soft lock like it is vs Goblins. Game three is also incredibly satisfying, because he wants to make sure that I can actually kill him, so I get to bring someone to zero instead of just watching them pick up their cards.
Match 2-1
4-1

Round 6
My strength of schedule is strong (the Sneak and Tell Guy is undefeated) and I'm in 4th place, so I draw in.
4-1-1

t8 - Dead Guy Ale (B/W agro)
Game one - he plays some Bobs, a Mother of Runes or two and some swords. I set up a lock and start digging for a Grove to beat his vindicates. At some point, while I'm digging for a Grove and he's digging for a Vindicate he pays a black to lose two life, show me his hand and discard two cards (attempts to Thoughtseize me with Confinement out). I find the Grove (my third of the game) and start going for death by Angles. He buys some time with swords and suited up Serra Avengers, I realize I have 4 draw effects on the board and 11 cards left in my Library, sac the grove to search up Words of War (bottom card) and DD him to death so as not to deck myself.
Game two - More of the same except that he's never close to in it, as I have double Grove lock most of the game. God I love decks that win by turning guys sideways.
Match 2-0
5-1-1

t4 -Sneak and Tell
Game one - The same guy who was my loss in swiss. Awesome. He shows in a turn 3 Emrakul and I pick up my cards. Deja Vu.
Game two - He's digging several turn after I have an oblivion ring for the Emrakul he shows in. I get set up and Words of War him to death before he gets another monster on the table (thank you, Ancient Tomb).
Game three - Pretty tight game. He has a chalice for 1 on turn one, which blanks like 4 cards in my hand, but, thankfully, not a lot of follow up. There's some back and forth with a Woodfall Primus, a Terrastadon, some O-Rings Echoing Truth. At one point he attacks with an Sneak Attacked in Emrakul into my Solitary / draw lock, I manage to bin six of my twelve permanents and fight back. There's a hairy moment towards the end of the game where I have to sack my only grove for the shuffle (Three Enchantress effects, Solitary, one enchantment in hand and three lands on the top) and he Sneaks in a terrastadon to wreck my shit. there are like two turns where if he draws a threat I am pretty boned but I manage to rip the replenish first and promptly words him to the face.
Match 2-1
6-1-1

Finals Ugwr Counter Top
Game one - I'm pretty sure this list is a port for the last Starcity 5k, but if not, close enough. I play a bunch of good cards in the first few turns to bate out his hard counterspells, play a Sigil of the Empty Throne turn 4, and beat down with angels over the next three turns for the win.
Game two - He sticks both pieces, I stick a Shusher, but am a little choked on mana. Infinite blows are traded between the Shusher and a Trinket Mage. After I play a moat he Firespouts and lays a 'Goyf. I feel super vulnerable and dig for a Sterling Grove, and, sure enough, get my moat Gripped in response to casting the Grove. I can't find a Solitary or a Replenish before I get run over.
Game three - This game is a lot like game two. We trade some blows, he eventually Firespouts to clear an Enchantress and a Vexing Shusher, and Grips me before I can find a Grove. If I see a replenish at any point (nigh impossible for them to counter with Counterbalance) or a Grove earlier in either game two or game three, I win.
Match
1-2
6-2-1

The list:

4 Solitary Confinement
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress

4 Sterling Grove
3 Mirri's Guile

4 Elephant Grass

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl

2 Replenish

1 Moat
1 City of Solitude
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo

1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

4 Windswept Heath
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Savannah (there were supposed to be three, but I couldn't find them, so I put in an extra forest and plains. TBH I couldn't tell the difference)
1 Taiga
9 Forests
4 Plains

SIDEBOARD:
4 Leyline of Sanctity (For Combo, also good in other matches, like Zoo)
2 Blood Moon (Incredible against Junk, can't beat 43 Lands without it, very good against Blue Control with no red)
2 Choke (for 4 color top and other blue decks with uses for red mana)
2 Vexing Shusher (Control takes out all or almost all of their removal after game one. Allstar)
1 Oblivion Ring (Utility)
1 Ground Seal (Dredge / Academy Ruins / Life From the Loam etc)
1 Aura of Silence (Top)
1 Lignify (Iona on white)
1 Dovescape (Its good v counter top, cause, good luck flipping a six with your counterbalance. I haven't been super impressed, though)

I meant to put in a Humility, but forgot to before I turned my decklist in. I would probably cut the dovescape. I also wasn't particularly impressed with Aura of Silence. It just doesn't do enough.

Hope this is helpful, The list got me a Moat. Also, this deck is hard to play and draining (which I'm sure you all know) so go in aware.

[Masamune]

Hmm.....Congrats!!
Your list is nice but I'd rather run one Green Suns Zenith instead to control enchantress effect faster....
My list have just a single Enrakul + Sigil and Words... by the way I like to kill faster w 15/15, because its a monster to beat just with turn 1 clock.
Does anyone knows how handle with Sneak&Show? IMO is a bad match :( despite Hisa take 2nd taking one down but losing before...

[TheShaun]

Round 4 - U/R Sneak and Tell
Game one - Turn two Emrakul? Sweet.
Game two - He goes off turn three with a Progenitus. He gets a hit in and then I stabilize with an Elephant Grass and a Choke and some other stall that makes him stare at me for five turns. I let the grass fall and tap out for a second Enchantress effect and a Solitary with the Grove for the hard lock in my hand. He rips his card, shrugs, lays the sneak attack he's been holding and pops in the Terastodon (the only one in his deck) that he ripped, kills some stuff and swings with Progenitus for the win.
Match 0-2
3-1
t4 -Sneak and Tell
Game one - The same guy who was my loss in swiss. Awesome. He shows in a turn 3 Emrakul and I pick up my cards. Deja Vu.
Game two - He's digging several turn after I have an oblivion ring for the Emrakul he shows in. I get set up and Words of War him to death before he gets another monster on the table (thank you, Ancient Tomb).
Game three - Pretty tight game. He has a chalice for 1 on turn one, which blanks like 4 cards in my hand, but thankfully not a lot of follow up. There's some back and forth with a Woodfall Primus, a Terrastadon, some O-Rings echoing truth. At one point he attacks with an Sneak Attacked in Emrakul into my Solitary / draw lock, I manage to bin six of my twelve permanents and fight back. There's a hairy moment towards the end of the game where I have to sack my only grove for the shuffle (The Enchantress effects, Solitary, one enchantment in hand and three lands on the top) and he Sneaks in a terrastadon to wreck my shit. there are like two turns where if he draws a threat I am pretty boned but I manage to rip the replenish first and promptly words him to the face.
Match 2-1
6-1-1



I was the Sneak/Show guy, just wanted to compliment you on possibly the best single game I can remember having. Too bad you didn't pull off your matchup in the finals, but Dan Jordan is a pretty hard opponent to beat. Look forward to seeing you at the Depot in the future.

[Masamune]

...I have an oblivion ring for the Emrakul he shows in...
Wait a sec... I didn't catch this...
Is Oblivion Ring a legal target to remove Emrakul when SandT is played?

[Hisa]

Wait a sec... I didn't catch this...
Is Oblivion Ring a legal target to remove Emrakul when SandT is played?

Yes. Emrakul has protection form colored spells. When Oblivion ring picks a target it is a permanent, not a spell. Though if you're asking about the timing on Show and tell I'm not sure. I played the spell the next turn because I wasn't sure on the ruling and didn't want to give away my hand by talking to the judge.

[Hisa]

I was the Sneak/Show guy, just wanted to compliment you on possibly the best single game I can remember having. Too bad you didn't pull off your matchup in the finals, but Dan Jordan is a pretty hard opponent to beat. Look forward to seeing you at the Depot in the future.

Ehhhh. DJ is a good player, but my record vs him in constructed is pretty good (and I'm way up on him in draft). I made like a mistake and a half in the games I played against him (I missed an attack with a shusher which turned out to be pretty irrelevant, and I played around daze all three games when I'm 95% sure the list he was playing didn't have any). Other than that my reads were all pretty much dead on, and I'd like to think I did my shit independent of his head games and shit talk. Some times the cards flip the way you need them to, and some times they don't. That's why its MtG and not Chess.

Unrelated and back on topic: I want to fit one more replenish main and one more sideboard. That card is a HOUSE against Counter-Top. Two Jaces and a Moat are your only 4s? Cool, one-for-oneing me is now even worse.

[sa17dk]

Unrelated and back on topic: I want to fit one more replenish main and one more sideboard. That card is a HOUSE against Counter-Top. Two Jaces and a Moat are your only 4s? Cool, one-for-oneing me is now even worse.

I'm running three Replenish in the MD and none in the sideboard. It's been great especially in my control metagame. Replenish basically functions as a win condition against blue decks.

[Masamune]

Yes. Emrakul has protection form colored spells. When Oblivion ring picks a target it is a permanent, not a spell. Though if you're asking about the timing on Show and tell I'm not sure. I played the spell the next turn because I wasn't sure on the ruling and didn't want to give away my hand by talking to the judge.

Targeting Emrakul with O-Ring just seens to me that we can't remove because the protection means all colored sources. O-ring beeing white doesn't matter how it does in play, but still is white and screw us a little bit, when it is played with SaT. This is my opinion (yes I want to see the rules for sure). IMO if there are any rule about it maybe it would be considered something compared with Enduring Ideal + Confiscate enchanting anyone shroud creature controled by opp

[Mark Sun]

The explanation for why an Oblivion Ring can exile an Emrakul can be clarified. The reasoning behind why Oblivion Ring can do so is because its ability is an ETB Trigger, which Emrakul does not have protection from, as simple as that. The triggered source can be all five colors and still target Emrakul.

Show and Tell is resolving - You pick Oblivion Ring, your opponent picks Emrakul.
Show and Tell resolves - Both permanents are put onto the battlefield.
Oblivion Ring's ability triggers - Emrakul is a legal target since at this point, Oblivion Ring is no longer a spell on the stack.

Same concept behind Sower of Temptation, Gilded Drake, and other favorites.


Not to be confused with Show and Tell'ing a Mind Control/Confiscate/Control Magic type card into play (an Aura); that won't work. 303.4f of the Comprehensive Rules:

303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player’s control by any means other than by
resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn’t specify the object
or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the
battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura’s enchant
ability and any other applicable effects.


Since they are entering the battlefield simultaneously, the Aura will not see Emrakul and it will not be a legal object that it could enchant.



If you are playing Enduring Ideal + some Aura, since it will enter the battlefield with Emrakul already there, then that Aura can enchant it.



In the scope of an Enchantress, if you want to save yourself from Emrakul, Show and Tell an Oblivion Ring into play. If you can't, put a Solitary Confinement into play, discard your Lignify, then cast Replenish :tongue:

[Masamune]

The explanation for why an Oblivion Ring can exile an Emrakul can be clarified. The reasoning behind why Oblivion Ring can do so is because its ability is an ETB Trigger, which Emrakul does not have protection from, as simple as that. The triggered source can be all five colors and still target Emrakul.

Show and Tell is resolving - You pick Oblivion Ring, your opponent picks Emrakul.
Show and Tell resolves - Both permanents are put onto the battlefield.
Oblivion Ring's ability triggers - Emrakul is a legal target since at this point, Oblivion Ring is no longer a spell on the stack.

Same concept behind Sower of Temptation, Gilded Drake, and other favorites.


Not to be confused with Show and Tell'ing a Mind Control/Confiscate/Control Magic type card into play (an Aura); that won't work. 303.4f of the Comprehensive Rules:

303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player’s control by any means other than by
resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn’t specify the object
or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the
battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura’s enchant
ability and any other applicable effects.


Since they are entering the battlefield simultaneously, the Aura will not see Emrakul and it will not be a legal object that it could enchant.



If you are playing Enduring Ideal + some Aura, since it will enter the battlefield with Emrakul already there, then that Aura can enchant it.



In the scope of an Enchantress, if you want to save yourself from Emrakul, Show and Tell an Oblivion Ring into play. If you can't, put a Solitary Confinement into play, discard your Lignify, then cast Replenish :tongue:

Nice! I'm glad now to think how I can handle with these hard-shrouded-mounsters...by the way so...If I play Lignify with SaT targeting Emrakul, its resolves like O-Ring right? Knowing about this all concerns about compreensive rules, what is the best strategy?
I was thinking about it minutes ago... in my current list I'm running:
1x O-Ring
1x Karakas
2x Replenish (maybe that what I said could work)
1x Emrakul

SB:
1x O-Ring

[TheShaun]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the judge at our event said lignify can't target Emrakul since the target is announced as the spell is put on the stack, at which point it is still a colored spell, not a permanent. I'm not sure if this is right, it's just what we were told.

[sa17dk]

You are correct. Lignify cannot be used as an answer to Emrakul.

[ForlornEgoist]

But Iona sure loves to be enchanted by it. :cool:

So, y'know, I'm really starting to get annoyed by the Rock MU. Their entire removal suite (with exception for StP) is relevant against us, and I'm just wondering how many other people are having the same issue/how we can best resolve this.

I already am running 4 Leyline of Sanctity in the SB, 1 Karmic Justic MD/SB, however MD Thoughtseize/Hymn/Vindicate/Deed/EE aside, they also have access to Extirpate, Engineered Plague, Diabolic Edict/Deed's/EE's/Krosan Grip (last Rock player I went up against even had Gaddock Teeg and Phyrexian Revoker).

True, mulling aggressively for that Leyline does help, however even that you still need to try and drop Enchantress effects as well as Sterling Groves which even in a good MU is sometimes difficult. I'm thinking about throwing Suppression Field back into the SB as it helps to stop/negate their various Top and shuffle effects (like KotR fetching Karakas/Bog) and at least slows down their fixing/thinning. Granted it'd hurt my deck a little bit more than others since I'm running 8 fetches, but still I'm just trying to figure out ways to deal with this MU.

As for the rest of my SB the only other cards I have that would be of any relevance are my 2 Wish targets Peacekeeper/Bojuka Bog, both of which would only weaken their creatures which is the lowest priority for me most of the time.

Anyway, lemme know what your opinions are.

Forlorn Egoist

[Dzra]

As a Rock player, I'd think that Rock would be your toughest MU. Blood Moon really doesn't do much against us if we are running Mox Diamond. The thing that works best is laying down Sterling Groves and comboing off as fast as possible. Boarding in more Replenish can also be key. Lignify is great too and a lot better than O-ring against us.

[technogeek5000]

My friend plays enchantress, but he plays the blue build, which is why I think the following question is important to answer:

Does the benefits of the standard red splash outweigh the blue.
Red: Blood Moon, Words of War
Blue: In the eye of chaos, Copy Enchantment, back to basics, Energy Flux as an option for the board.

At first, the list he ran contained words of wind, but he chose to replace it with a second in the eye of chaos which at this point has been a universal bomb against everything non aggro which has historically been the more difficult area for enchantress. As a combo player, he has taken several games from me as In the eye of chaos is the only card that the deck cant answer, and as long as the combo player doesnt win first turn it is easy raceable. Back to Basics effectively functions as mana denial, taking over Blood moon's role while copy enchantment functions as general utility, copying draw effects, sterling groves, oblivion rings, or anything else you need at the time. My friend has been successful with his build, and I would like to know what everyone's opinions are.

[Masamune]

IMO In The Eye of Chaos is slight worse than a City of Solitude (considering control meta). I don't like Blood Moons and Back to Basics...Moons effects affect my own fetches and Sanctuary too. BtB in SB is good against most control decks (wich would be replaced by Chokes) but affect my lands instead...
Actually I advocate this because my current list follows a different system: draw many cards as you can get every turn, playing low cc enchants and tap a single Sanctuary summoning Emrakul to hit in a single move. Often I need Sanctuary early and Moon or BtB screw me up sometimes. I hate when it happens, so I prefer change my SB (run Chokes maybe 3).

Explaining about Sneak&Show strategies and compreensive rules (I found, yes I did lol):

6/15/2010: Emrakul may be affected by colored spells that don't target it or deal damage to it, including those that cause it to become blocked. Abilities of colored permanents (such as Journey to Nowhere) may target it. Auras may be moved onto it by abilities or by colored spells that don't target it (such as Aura Graft).

Right. Oblivion can eat the monster! Sweet :P (live and learn ^^)

[Opax]

In my side i play sacred ground for face emrakul. Simply setting me under confinement or runed haloo for avoid direct damage, i can survive to the annihilator problem using my lands with sacred ground.

And Sacred ground is very useful is some match-up like aggroloam playing devastating dreams or a stax.

[ForlornEgoist]

Sacred Ground does certainly have some merit in mid-late game scenario, however it is not really tech I would consider useful for Emrakul. We're afraid of Emrakul primarily when facing Sneaky Show/Hypergenesis/etc. that can accelerate him out T3-5 whereas in the mirror the Annihilator is manageable. Remember that in regards to Annihilator/Stax (sac) effects, you can't bypass them with SG by simply re-sacing the same land X number of times (because thats against the rules, children). SG does save our lands, however aforementioned sac effects can still rip apart our board to the point of death. Most AggroLoam lists have begun to abandon DD entirely as it is a card that does little to aid the game state for them, hence it has been reduced to a mere Wish target. TBH I've learned to essentially stop trying to stop combo decks and just build a SB to strengthen our aggro/combo MU's.

Forlorn Egoist

[Opax]

Sacred Ground Remember that in regards to Annihilator/Stax (sac) effects, you can't bypass them with SG by simply re-sacing the same land X number of times (because thats against the rules, children).


If you have to sac X permanents you can simply sac X land. SG will save all of them. Right?
Sadly you will lose your growth but no more.

Of course t3-5 fatty is a problem but if you arrange to slow him down to a mid-game you can bring it home with a strong lock.

This deck is not played a lot in my meta, but, should it become, I'll return to 1 karakas maindeck and 1 crop rotation in sideboard as when reanimator was heavily played.

[Hisa]

The list in the t8 of the SCG 5k looks terrrrrrrrible, by the way.

[JCLe]

The list in the t8 of the SCG 5k looks terrrrrrrrible, by the way.

I'm curious what makes you say that, I thought it looked alright...
Care to explain ?

Thanks

[Hisa]

I'm curious what makes you say that, I thought it looked alright...
Care to explain ?

Thanks

Sure, and sorry if Poszgay is on these boards, and I piss him off with this.

I watched the top 8 and t4 games he played with this list (Reference (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36857)), so I'll make some comments about the games and boarding I saw, then the list. Done from memory as I wasn't taking notes, and I have no desire to watch those infinitely slow matches again. Also, I am by no means the law, but I've been playing and tweaking this deck for six months to great effect.

Boarding Notes:

Bringing in runed halo vs zoo? You have got to be kidding me. That card is terrible in the Zoo matchup because their threats are so diversified. He named mindslaver with it g1 (because it was that useful), then brought in two more? Game two the only relevant card named was KotR, which wasn't actually relevant, since he had the lock the entire time Runed Halo was on the table. Also, game one could have been ended 4-5 turns earlier without opening himself up to any other of her outs.

Vs the Tendrils/Doomsday/Show and Tell. I think the boarding was right. You have to run good to win this match, but, that being said, I think he had it. Solitary and humilities help. There were a bunch of misplays in the match though, and lots of sloppy play. Binning a a windswept to Solitary and not a Misty? That's just the wrong line of play, period. If you're gonna think about your turns for twenty minutes at a go (seriously though, I don't mean this as hate) don't play sloppy. There were several other incorrect lines of play in this round I noticed, though I don't recall the specifics off the top of my head (I am willing to watch the video again if people are actually interested).

Deck notes:

Runed Halo - As mentioned above, too many runed halo. The card is way way way too situational. 1 main is ok, so you have an out to ANT and the like game 1, but 2 main is wrong, as is 2 more in the board. Unless you are expecting infinite combo (which you shouldn't be in this environment) this choice is incorrect.

Blood Moon - this is bad main. it does almost nothing against zoo, goblins, 4 color top, Sneak and tell, fish ... the list goes on. It's good against junk, B/W top, BWU top and NO Bant. That's pretty much it. Not even close to a big enough portion of the field to be running it main. Wasted spot.

Solitary Confinement - I run four. I can maybe see an argument for three. Two? Wrong. Would you run one copy of Show and Tell in Sneak & Tell? All it does is fuck your consistency and make you run shitty cards like runed halo and ...

Enlightened Tutor - Fine if you only play against decks that don't run blue. Otherwise, welcome to 2-for-1. How many decks in legacy run blue? Or right.

Chrome Mox - I'm not a huge fan of Chrome Mox, but hey, maybe that's just me. I haven't tested it extensively.

Horizon Canopy - Love this.


SB

Let me get this straight, four copies of Wheel of Sun and Moon and one Choke. So the expectation is more dredge than decks with blue in them? Really? WRONG.

More enlightened tutor, more runed halo, god what a fucking mess this board is.

No Mirri's Guile, 1 Oring (outs to emrakul) in the main and SB, this list is so much less than optimal it hurts to look at. The other Enchantress list at the 5k (that pozsgay beat in the last round for the t8 spot) just looked way way way better.

[JCLe]

Alright, thanks for explaining... the runed halo's did indeed seem like too much.

Do you have a link to that other list or do you just recall from the game?

[anonymos]

Bringing in runed halo vs zoo? You have got to be kidding me. That card is terrible in the Zoo matchup because their threats are so diversified. He named mindslaver with it g1 (because it was that useful), then brought in two more? Game two the only relevant card named was KotR, which wasn't actually relevant, since he had the lock the entire time Runed Halo was on the table. Also, game one could have been ended 4-5 turns earlier without opening himself up to any other of her outs.


In his defense on the Runed Halo naming, the potential on Price of Progress g2 was also significant.

His G1 vs. zoo that he had locked up for forever, he was doing the same thing that I would've done. I would've suggested she concede when I get a confinement lock. After that, my goal is to do as little as possible while boring you to death while I win. I don't mean stall. I just mean that I'm going to play enough to maintain my lock and that's about it. I won't show a win condition unless absolutely necessary. Why would I want to go to game 2/3 where I could get blown out? Do I agree with the 25 minute turns? No. Do I agree with him not killing her as fast as he could have? Yes.

[Hisa]

In his defense on the Runed Halo naming, the potential on Price of Progress g2 was also significant.

His G1 vs. zoo that he had locked up for forever, he was doing the same thing that I would've done. I would've suggested she concede when I get a confinement lock. After that, my goal is to do as little as possible while boring you to death while I win. I don't mean stall. I just mean that I'm going to play enough to maintain my lock and that's about it. I won't show a win condition unless absolutely necessary. Why would I want to go to game 2/3 where I could get blown out? Do I agree with the 25 minute turns? No. Do I agree with him not killing her as fast as he could have? Yes.

I missed the PoP naming. That is absolutely relevant. Not even close to justifying 4 copies of runed halo, though. Also, IIRC, decklists were available to everybody in the t8, so hiding cards isn't really effective. Not 100% on known decklists though, and I guess its a fine argument if you don't have full information.

[android]

G2 vs Doomsday/Shelldrazi I'd say he got EXTREMELY lucky landing that leyline from the start. Just about the only card that saved him. Then of course he proceeded to land all the relevant hate cards in order. Lucky lucky lucky.

I would have liked to see Enchantress take it, don't get me wrong, but the way he played the deck I just don't know how he got through 10 rounds (or was it 8?). I know he won 2 games by taking G1 and going to time G2. I guess that's just how Enchantress wins.

I'd like to believe I can play the deck with more fluidity though, he was turtling big time. And not even with difficult decisions. I have the think his motives were different than just winning the damn game. Maybe he needed to see Mary's entire decklist G1, I don't know. He looked like a novice and obviously paid the price for it.

[FieryBalrog]

Humility is the best answer to Doomsday Emrakul, and might be worth running as a 1-of for Etutor/Grove to find; but it might just be better to ignore that and use Oblivion Ring for the usually more common Show & Tell decks.

[Hisa]

I'd like to believe I can play the deck with more fluidity though, he was turtling big time. And not even with difficult decisions. I have the think his motives were different than just winning the damn game. Maybe he needed to see Mary's entire decklist G1, I don't know. He looked like a novice and obviously paid the price for it.

This.

[Masamune]

Hey everyone!
How beat combo decks??? Notably there is a big problem IMO: testing against most popular combo decks like ANT / TES and its variants, let me explain what's is happened recently.
I can't stop the combo. Sad but true. Even if I control a Leyline and a Null Rod turn 1. I would like to see how we can disrupt these first turn spells fast as soon as possible...
Simply opp can play Wipe Away targeting Null Rod, play Ill-Gotten Gains after (when storm count should be something like 7 ou 8) and finish with the same Wipe Away played before, plus Tutor+Tendrils targeting me, making my anti-combo cards useless.

Suggestions:
Orim's Chant and MindBreak Trap. (IMO Etherswon Canonist sucks because screw me up too much and opp still can return it to my hand with bounce spells)

Can someone help me? ><

[ForlornEgoist]

As someone who at one pointed dedicated his entire SB hate to combo, my suggestion is to pack in some basic hate for combo (Leyline of Sanctity, Null Rod) that can be applied to other decks and just give up on that MU. I know how annoying it is to lose to combo, but something you need to recognize is that every deck has a bad MU. Sometimes it's more important for you to not compromise the SB to improve a horrible MU (Combo) and instead save the slots to keep your other MU's (Aggro/Control) in your favor. If your meta is rampant with Combo, then don't play this deck. I know, it sucks not playing a deck you really like, but you need to be a realist and play the meta. Every deck has strengths and weaknesses, and some weaknesses (Bad Combo MU) you just can't fix.

That having been said, here are a few suggestions I can provide if you're deadset against hating your Combo MU:

SB
3 Null Rod
3-4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity

MD
2 Oblivion Ring
2-3 Runed Halo

I'm running a Wish board, so if that's a path you want to consider going you can also give yourself access to Gaddock Teeg, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Karakas, and Bojuka Bog.

But IMHO you're better off just running Leyline/Halo for primary Combo hate and just moving on to improve the Aggro and Control MU's.

Forlorn Egoist

[anonymos]

I know, it sucks not playing a deck you really like, but you need to be a realist and play the meta. Every deck has strengths and weaknesses, and some weaknesses (Bad Combo MU) you just can't fix.


That sums it up pretty well. I keep a pair of Runed Halo and an extra Solitary Confinement in my board to try to steal wins where they're slow. I've just accepted that it's bad.

Merfolk is weak to zoo. Goblins is weak to zoo. We beat Merfolk and Goblins and usually zoo. Everyone had bad matchups. Storm combo is ours.

[ForlornEgoist]

Okay, guys, I just tested (to much delighted success) some new super-secret tech for our control MU: Primal Order. One of (if pretty much the only) good cards to come out of Homelands! Yeah, I know we already have City of Solitude and Choke but this actually punishes decks such as Lands and CounterTop-strategy decks for doing what they love to do: sit around and stall for 20 turns.

I doubt I'm ready to opt for this over the other 2, but it certainly has some merit. Anyway, just thought I'd post it to get your thoughts.

Forlorn Egoist

[Hisa]

I just want to say, that this deck would have killed in Memphis. I has favored to highly favored MUs against every deck in the top 16, including two painter/stone decks that are cold to a Leyline of Sanctity. Sometimes I really wish I still lived in the Midwest.

[ForlornEgoist]

Yeah, I noticed. I dunno, I'm kinda torn. On the one hand I think Enchantress could place a Top 8 at one of the upcoming Starcities, but on the other hand decks (like all things in life) are typically cooler when not everyone plays them. That's why I still play Dragon Stompy: it's fun, and I'm more than sure it won't be getting any Top 8's anytime soon. :laugh:

Forlorn Egoist

[GoldenCid]

Hi Guys, i'm begining with this deck and i post my list for suggestions:

4 Argothian Enchantress

Sorcery [2]

2 Replenish

Instant [2]

2 Enlightned Tutor

Enchantment [34]

1 Aura of Silence
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Ground Seal
1 Karmic Justice
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Words of War

Land [20]

8 Forest
3 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath

Side (15)

x1 Aura of Silence
x4 Carpet of Flowers
x1 City of Solitude
x1 CoP: Red
x4 Leyline of Sanctity
x1 Runed Halo
x2 Wheel of Sun and the Moon
x1 Seal of Primordium
x1 Karmic Justice

It's a classic list as you see.

[ForlornEgoist]

@ GoldenCid

What's your meta like? Your list, as you said, is pretty standard but I'm noticing a lot of 1-of's which I assume is so you can have a toolbox for answers. Perhaps we could help you refine your list if we knew what you encountered on average.

Something I would suggest (which is a general opinion I have for Enchantress builds in general) is increasing the fetch count to 6-8 as with the mass draw that we have the deck thinning is actually relevant. You may also want to consider running a singleton Plateau. Something I often found is that I'd want the red at some point but sometimes I was wishing the green from Taiga were white instead, so... yeah.

ForlornEgoist

[GoldenCid]

@ GoldenCid

What's your meta like?

Well, it's variable...but it's dominated by aggro (zoo, goblins and affinity), C-top variants and a few combo.

[ForlornEgoist]

You may want to considering running 2-3 Null Rod in the SB. It shuts off affinity lands (although they still can use the "Affinity," aspect), Springleaf Drum, Arcbound Ravager and Cranial Plating. The card hits SDT and Engineered Explosives of which many if not most CounterTop decks run the Academy Ruins + Engineered Explosives combo to wreck our day. Against combo it hits LED, Petal, and Belcher. Based on what you posted it seems Null Rod would be an ideal choice.

In regards to Carpet of Flowers I'm not very fond of it. Yeah, you get extra mana acceleration but until they get the CounterTop engine online most of the decks don't care about your mana accelerants so it seems like a superfluous card to me. You'd be better of with a 2nd City of Solitude or even 1-2 Choke. A card I've recently coined for the control MU is Primal Order although this would probably be card choice #3 behind the aforementioned. Dovescape seems to be another card many other Enchantress players are fond of running in their SB.

You probably don't need that MD Aura of Silence. I've never seen much use to MD it as I rarely ever had the opportunity to accelerate it out immediately to affect the game-state. You would probably be better off just uping the O-Ring count to 2 as that will be a little bit more of a universal answer to your needs, although I don't know how often you see Affinity.

Those are my suggestions. I don't have too much to offer for the aggro MU, but typically we're able to handle aggro if we can survive past turns 4 or 5.

ForlornEgoist

[GoldenCid]

Dovescape seems to be another card many other Enchantress players are fond of running in their SB.

You probably don't need that MD Aura of Silence. I've never seen much use to MD it as I rarely ever had the opportunity to accelerate it out immediately to affect the game-state. You would probably be better off just uping the O-Ring count to 2 as that will be a little bit more of a universal answer to your needs, although I don't know how often you see Affinity.


Thx you a lot for your suggestions i appreciate them!

On Dovescape: I'm pretty interested on this card! But what i don't understand is its use. Yeah, you counter all your opo stuff but so the our. So...

On Affinity: well i see it often, but concerning that it think that aura of silence is too slow anyway, i think it's a good enchant to keep aside anykind of artifact or enchant at the time i up their curve...:eyebrow:

The idea of null rod sourprises me i thought that playing a not enchant in the side card was a NO for this deck.

[Justin]

I used to play Dovescape. I'm not sure that I can recommend it, but since all of our spells (except Argothian Enchantress) are non-creatures, it produces a bunch of birds. The cool thing is that even though your spells are countered, your Enchantress Presence, Argothian Enchantress, Sigil of the Empty Throne, etc. still trigger when you play an enchantment spell. So you get the birds and those extra cards. The weakness of Dovescape is that is costs six. Sigil or Words of War will are cheaper win conditions, so it's usually not worth paying more mana for Dovescape.

Even thought it's not an enchantement, Null Rod isn't a horrible sb choice if your meta has a bunch of artifact decks. It doesn't hurt your deck unless you run Chrome Mox.

[ForlornEgoist]

It would be far worse to not run useful artifacts such as Pithing Needle and Null Rod simply because they aren't enchantments. They still provide insanely useful effects of which we don't really have a sufficient enchantment equivalent and because we run Enlightened Tutor we can easily tutor them up.

As for Dovescape I'm honestly not fond of it, however I can understand why some Enchantress players might deside to use this for the control MU. That having been said, it costs 6 mana and I very much doubt the opponent is going to let a card resolve that says "You Lose." Win-Cons such as WoW and Sigil they can justify as they have EE/Deed to answer them, but a resolved Dovescape means they lose. Really Choke/City of Solitude are all you need. I even know several Enchantress players who opt for a SB 3-4 Vexing Shusher which they side-in after an opponent sides out all of their removal. :P

Forlorn Egoist

[Opax]

This was my sideboard at the last turnament:

3 Leyline of sanctity
1 Sacred ground
1 Aura of silence (Moved from the main)
1 Lignify (Moved from the main)
1 Choke
1 Ground seal(1 left in main)
2 E tutor
2 Vexing Susher
1 Dovescape
1 Pithing needle
1 Null Rod

I'm running Vexing susher and dovescape from 6 month in every turnament. I never close the lock. I'll cut dovescape. Probably for the 4th Leyline or for the 3rd Susher.

Null rod was a test. I Never encounter an Affinity MU, but in C-Top MU became a must counter. It never hit the table in 5 match vs C-top. I Was quite happy by the way.

I'm running Pithing Needle From quite a year in my sideboard. I'm very happy about it. Usually i side in it for call EE or deed cause my filosofy is to not let board sweeper to hit me. So i ususally run Aura of silence for slow them, Ground seal for avoid EE recursion and needle to stop them. By the way Needle can be very useful in a thousand of other way.

I was running Wheel of sun and moon until survival was in the meta. But now the cards that you need vs Dredge or Loam deck is Ground seal, no other.

About my testing:

@ Primal order: I've tested it a lot of time ago when i was searching for the 4th wincon when in the meta there was a lot of black deck. At the time i find it very slow. Does you arrange to close with it often Forlon?? I'll give a new try next week.

@ About Emrakul: From 4 tournament i'm pointing my atttention to this. I'm playing a different wild growth. Every time i draw it i think a little if the fatty was better. Never. And I never reach 15 mana on my board without having a winning board position. Yes is strong, it can solve a lot of problem but really i think its a winmore for us.


4C Countertop is a good part of the meta. I'm seriously thinking of playing 1-2 Suppression filed maindeck and ESG for go for it early vs heavy fetchland deck. I know this card its very bad. I've cutted the Mistyrain forset for stabilize manabase vs tempodeck and so i'm not scared about fetching problem but still have to pay 3 for use grove is very much. I really don't know. Any suggestion??

Ty for time

Sorry for my english

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Primal Order
I don't really think I'd justify a spot for this in my deck period. The times when I've dropped it against Lands or 4c Countertop it was pretty much an auto-win but the card itself does nothing to affect the game state and it has very limited uses against other decks. I may go about testing it some more to see how it performs but ultimately I prefer answers that can find some use in a much larger scope of MU's.

@ Emrakul
I've argued this to the point of insanity that beyond the mirror MU he isn't a good card. By the time the deck can ramp to 15 mana you've essentially won the game and can pick your win-con. Emrakul is really just a way to show off. If decks are looking to MD a 3rd wincon in creature form Iona would be prefferable as she has evasion, puts the opponent on a 2-3 turn clock, and is much more reasonably cast for us.

@ ESG
This is really an akward decision as you get some mixed results/opinions on this. Chrome Mox is ultimately better because it's a permanant mana source however I used to run ESG because I disliked the card disadvantage I had when I was forced to mull down bad hands. In the grand scheme of things I would ultimately say you're better off with a Mox, although I've long since removed mana accelerants like this since my meta has switched from heavy aggro to nearly 1/3 Rock/Deadguy. :rolleyes:


Forlorn Egoist

[NycEMS]

@ Primal Order

@ Emrakul
I've argued this to the point of insanity that beyond the mirror MU he isn't a good card. By the time the deck can ramp to 15 mana you've essentially won the game and can pick your win-con. Emrakul is really just a way to show off. If decks are looking to MD a 3rd wincon in creature form Iona would be prefferable as she has evasion, puts the opponent on a 2-3 turn clock, and is much more reasonably cast for us.

Forlorn Egoist

Hey long time thread stalker first time poster. I really like emrakul in this deck I ran him in edision and anytime i played him it was a win (WoW you won by casting emrakul no way!!!!, but ya). But he was much more then just a wow look at my permanent count tap serra sanctum auto win, he won me games i was on the verge of losing. Against show and tell the S&T player goes turn two pedal into S&T picking his blightsteel and i calmly place my emrakul on the table. Luck sack yes but i would have lost the game had it not been for me giving myself the chance to luck sack into the perfect card. I know o-ring would of been fine in that situation as well but what if he dropped progenitus then o-ring would of been crap but emrakul would still be the nuts. Another game against RUG top I was a few turns away from losing with only a moat stopping a horde of goyfs and nothing stopping his lavamancer from killing me in 3 turns or an answer to his EE on 4 (think he splashed for EE counters, suppression field is amazing as well) then i top decked Emrakul and won.

[ForlornEgoist]

While I do understand than Emrakul will stand out the times he's actually been played as per your S&T example, I'm looking at the other MU's where he sits in your hand for turns on end until you can cast him, or instances in the beginning where you open up a hand that has an Emrakul. Having one less buisness card in hand, particularly when mulliganing, to me is as good as giving the opponent free cards. I'm not saying that various Enchantress players are stupid for running him (hell, I throw him in my Wish board if I expect other Enchantress in a meta) but IMO him being a dead card in the more prominent aggro/varying control MU's is more important when judging whether to run him than the few random MU's where you win with him when you couldn't with the more common win-cons (Sigil/WoW/etc.).

Something I've been considering more and more as of late is dropping the 2 Runed Halo from my deck. Up until just recently I always thought to myself how amazing it is to shut of big beasties (KotR, 'Goyf, Terra, etc.) or things like discard/burn, or even in the Combo MU naming Tendrils or Belcher. However I started to see more and more that the WW can often be incredibly annoying to fetch out when green is the more relevant color for us most of the time, or in other cases how O-Ring would have done the same job the Halo and more as it's ability to answer cards isn't limited like Halo. I most likely will keep Halo as a 1-of for tutoring but I think that having it in multiples is not as good as I once considered it. If anyone else has opinions about this, please share.

Okay, so I went 3-1 tonight, losing to the Mirror MU go figure. Anyway, after popping open my winnings I pulled an interesting card: Psychosis Crawler. The fact that it lacks evasion means I may not test this card too much, but I have to say I was definitely intrigued by it. Costing 5, it's much cheaper to play than Emrakul or Iona. His Multani */* isn't too relevant, but what I was interesting in was the second effect: "Whenever you draw a card, each opponent loses 1 life." Right?:eek: Pre-testing this card I'm sure what I'll learn is that in most cases you aren't able to kill the opponent in the same turn he's cast unless you hang onto him until you can, and the fact that he lacks evasion means he's just waiting to be StP/PtE (esp. for me in games 2/3 since many opponents opt to keep some creature removal after knowing I have a Wishboard). That having been said, when were drawing 3-5 cards for every enchantment, it's very reasonable to kill the opponent in that turn and requires less thought on your part than WoW.:laugh:

Anyway, just thought I'd throw it up for suggestions. At the very least I may decide to switch out Emrakul for him in the Mirror MU. Btb, here's my current list just for the heck of it since I have made many changes recently:


4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
5 Forest
3 Plains

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Replenish
3 Living Wish

3 Argothian Enchantress

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
2 Runed Halo
4 Sterling Grove
1 Karmic Justice
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Enchantress's Presence

1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Sideboard
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Peacekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Bojuka Bog
1 City of Solitude
3 Null Rod
4 Leyline of Sanctity

The Emrakul is typically a 2nd city, but I've been seeing a lot of Enchantress lately. The Null Rod are absolutely amazing. :eek: They help in nearly every control MU and esp. the combo MU. As I've said I'm thinking of going -1 Halo +1 O-Ring. Also will most likely drop a plains for a forest as green is typically what I want to see more of. Also as I stated a few posts above I'm starting to become less fond of the 2 MD Replenish. I rarely ever draw into 2 of them, but some games I just don't need to see so I may considering running it as a 1-of.

So... yeah.

Forlorn Egoist

[anonymos]

but I've been seeing a lot of Enchantress lately.

Know what fixes this really easily? Cleansing Meditation

[Masamune]

...

In my current list I'm running Emrakul main deck. No Living Wishes. I'd rather 2x Green Sun Zenithies to improve turn 2 enchantress effect. I like Emrakul because it can't be countered. Doesn't matter how is considered all casting costs of our creatures. Could be Iona, Terastodon, Psychosis Crawler, Kozilek whereaver...They aways would be targetable by a fucking Force of Will. It happened sometimes against control decks, the opp wait we draw whole deck countering all our stuffs (sigils, words of war, stags...)
My strategy against controls is something like this:
1) Play enchantress effect as sson as possible.
2) With an echantress effect in table our chances improve substantially.
3) Play all Elephant Grasses, Wild Growths and Utopia Spraws to dig the deck.
4) Meanwhile fetch all duals that isn't came yet. The idea is force opp waste then.
5) Play Serras's Santum and cast Emrakul. gg

About Emrakul:
1) Good against Sneak and Show decks.
2) Screw combo decks that usually run Brain Freeze.
3) Can shuffle our graveyard when is discarted combining with Confinement or when we must to discard in end phase.
4) Against mirror matches he's amazing.

I'm listening all people opinions, but I've tested many other stuffs and I concluded Emrakul is very nice.

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Cleansing Meditation :eek: I may very well test that.

@ Masamune

So basically your saying your strategy is the exact same strategy as that of every other Enchantress player. How unconventional. --' Contrary to the few ocassions where you may have encountered a player using counters who was ignorant enough of our deck to wait for the win-cons to counter, a smart or more experience player only has to counter the initial 1-2 Enchantress effects (which aren't usually even Daze-proof), and then throw out an early Jace, or as is more commonly done establish a CounterTop/EE lock on us. As for luring a Waste granted they might be drawn into using it on a dual if they think you're mana screwed, but otherwise they'll reserve it to Sanctum. Sure you could hang onto it until you can cast Emrakul, but typically it's smarter to cast it earlier to improve your tempo rather than stalling. Remember CounterTop decks want to win by turn 20, so you need to outrace them. GSZ is fine if your looking to have extra assurance for Argothians, but after establishing 2-3 you begin to experience greater and greater diminishing returns with the card unlike a Wishboard which has purpose at ever stage in the game. Although the benefit of GSZ is you could also run Shushers for the Counter MU granted that enables their removal, however most players side that out after g2/3.

Albeit the Counter MU is a tad more reasonable MU to play Emrakul, but what's your game plan for a more difficult MU: Rock/Junk? T1/2 they most often will have discard to remove any Enchantress effect in the opening hand, followed by either a Goyf/Bob or more discard based on what they pinging. MD EE/Vindicate/Deed gives them board answers for your deck, and a KotR can easily answer your Emrakul. Postboard all you really have to bring in against them is Leyline of Sanctity and possibly Ground Seal whereas they get to bring in Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek, Extra Deed/EE, Krosan Grip, Extirpate, Diabolic Edict. Emrakul still goes to the graveyard, triggers any GY trigger before his trigger goes on the stack. The opponent can easily just KotR for Bojuka Bog or Extirpate in response to him hitting the GY. (Sidenote to this is that you could Wheel of Sun and Moon yourself for the replacement effect, but it would disable Replenish so that would be a judgement call on your part)

Ultimately I'm not going to convince you to not run Emrakul because it really is a personal choice and you know your own meta and its players better than I do, but I just want players to consider every possibility for their card choices particularly when said cards are huge investments like Emrakul and ultimately can't affect the game state until a point where we can win any number of ways. I've only ever found him needed in the Mirror MU, but I'm sure other players have many other instances where he's been useful to them.

That's just my two cents on the issue. I don't want to get into a posting war about this, so I'll try to be less confrontational about him now. ^^'

Forlorn Egoist

[Masamune]

So basically your saying your strategy is the exact same strategy as that of every other Enchantress player.

Nah, totally disagreed. I've see many other players running too many runed halos, Stags ofr win, 2x Sigil, Splash Blue/ Black/ White enchants for win conditions and coltrols and many many others.


... a smart or more experience player only has to counter the initial 1-2 Enchantress effects (which aren't usually even Daze-proof), and then throw out an early Jace, or as is more commonly done establish a CounterTop/EE lock on us.

Look at this point: the examples that I said all opp was played any counters to stop my 1~2 enchantresses but they AWAYS have another counters in the corner holding a perfect time to screw up all win conditions. When I running Emrakul I haven't any trouble with controls


As for luring a Waste granted they might be drawn into using it on a dual if they think you're mana screwed, but otherwise they'll reserve it to Sanctum.

No, most players sac wastes targeting any non-basic lands that have been played before... Try put into play a Taiga. Anyone won't let it in play for a long time. Of course. I aways play a Sanctum when I can do to improve my tempo. Plus: CounterTOP decks never was the primary problem to me. My nightmare is combo decks line ANT/ TES. For this reason I'm running nowadays 4x Orim's Chant, 4x Leylines and Null Rods in my SB.


GSZ is fine if your looking to have extra assurance for Argothians, but after establishing 2-3 you begin to experience greater and greater diminishing returns with the card unlike a Wishboard which has purpose at ever stage in the game. Although the benefit of GSZ is you could also run Shushers for the Counter MU granted that enables their removal, however most players side that out after g2/3.


I hate start with a start hand with no enchantress effect or have any way to take any from my deck with Tutor or Zenith.
I advocate a different strategy: I let opp counter anything he want to do... My SB haven't Solitudes, Shushers or whatever.
I'd rather my Chokes :) I like then and testing with it is much better than stop counter effects. I obtain nice results with Grass+Chokes for instance to handle with Team America decks and Merfolks.


Rock/Junk? T1/2 they most often will have discard to remove any Enchantress effect in the opening hand, followed by either a Goyf/Bob or more discard based on what they pinging. MD EE/Vindicate/Deed gives them board answers for your deck

Post SB my deck is running with several Leylines. And this is another reason to run Zenithies to improve enchantress effects. Ofeten I started with 2~3 enchantress effect. It's perfect against these discards. Here the masterpieces Grasses and Replenishes, but i know that is a terrible MU for sure after combo IMO.


KotR can easily answer your Emrakul

O-Ring here is the key. And KotR is much mor playable in New Horizons and WBGRock, in other words, decks that won't counter nothing. We can win with Sigils and WoWar.

I tested before the Wishes version but I think it's a little slow.

[grahf]

Forlorn Egoist, you mentioned that you removed ESG/Mox because of the troublesome Rock/Junk/Deadguy matchups... aren't your enchanted lands an even juicier target for Vindicates and Wastes? Or is the rationale more to do with having stabler mana accel that doesn't initially create card disadvantage, even if it might in the future.

I'm increasingly convinced that "Junk" is named so because that's where it kicks you... Does anyone still play Spiritual Focus or should I just mull to leyline?

Oh yeah and I lost to 9th-ed standard legal UR Magnivore with Wildfires last weekend... gawd how embarrasing.

[lep]

I just took 6th at a local event with 38 players, some of which were pretty high caliber players.

//MAIN
3 Plains
5 Forest
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Serra's Sanctum

1 Words of War
1 Words of Wind
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

4 Sterling Grove

2 Solitary Confinement
3 Replenish
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat
1 Humility
2 Runed Halo

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
2 Mirri's Guile

//SIDEBOARD
1 Runed Halo
1 Aura of Silence
2 Blood Moon
1 City of Solitude
2 Choke
1 Karmic Justice
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Humility
1 Ground Seal
4 Leyline of Sanctity

In the main event I was paired against a 4C control build (Akin to GerryT's 4C top), NO Bant, Junk, and Fish, then I drew into top 8. There I was paired against a Tezz Stax concoction that kept me 1 mana shy of going nuts after scooping round 1 to a third turn Words of Wind with a Presence on board.

That only thing I was really unhappy with is the second Humility in board. Even against heavy creature decks, the one main with the replenish \ groves were more than enough. I would substitute that for a second Aura of Silence.

[ForlornEgoist]

Forlorn Egoist, you mentioned that you removed ESG/Mox because of the troublesome Rock/Junk/Deadguy matchups... aren't your enchanted lands an even juicier target for Vindicates and Wastes? Or is the rationale more to do with having stabler mana accel that doesn't initially create card disadvantage, even if it might in the future.

I'm increasingly convinced that "Junk" is named so because that's where it kicks you... Does anyone still play Spiritual Focus or should I just mull to leyline?

Oh yeah and I lost to 9th-ed standard legal UR Magnivore with Wildfires last weekend... gawd how embarrasing.

Unless it's evident that I am getting mana-screwed then the player typically realizes it's not in their best interest to go for the mana denial plan against us. I don't enchant nonbasics with Growth/Sprawl (as no-one else should unless absolutely necessary) and as it stands Wastes are always reserved for Sanctums. As for Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse, these are typically reserved for annoying enchantments (eg. Presence, Confinment). That's not a universal assesment, mind you, since I do know many players who regardless of MU or game state go in thinking, "I'll just manascrew them ftw." My opinion is that aside from us putting 2 or 3 Growth/Sprawl on a single land for our only mana source, they're not going to focus too heavily on land hate when they run 8+ discard spells that essentially can give them a win if they rip apart our entire hand by turn 3.

I'm not denying the usefulness of ESG/Mox. They can find use not only in the Rock MU where they let you accelerate an Enchantress effect out T1-2 before discard rips your hand apart, or the combo MU, or as I did in the aggro MU where they can kill you T3-5. However I also didn't like limiting my enchantment draws when I started getting Enchantress effects on the field. I also was not overly fond of seeing 1 less buisness card in my hand when I would have to mull down. ESG/Mox especiallyare cards I will not argue against for this deck as they do have very valid uses. I just choose not to run them myself.

In regards to Leyline, if you don't have too much buisness going on in the opening 7 by all means mull down to 6 but do not mull your hand into oblivion looking for a Leyline because ultimately they'll remove it w/Vindicate and then just use their now reserved discard on you as you draw cards and opt not to play them for various reasons such as mana screw or inability to support them.

@ Spiritual Focus. Interesting. *Rubs chin* I've always opted for Compost but Spiritual Focus gives you an extra 2 life for your troubles, and luckily since our deck has such an even split of colors/fixing the white isn't diffficult to come by. I may very will switch to this, although you might get extra card draw off of Compost as opposed to Spiritual Focus since Compost's draw is not based on discard but on any black card hitting the GY. That having been said, Focus might be a detriment to some players not looking to let you gain that extra life. But going back to Compost, the only extra cards they have which wouldn't affect Focus would be Vindicate/Extirpate.

Forlorn Egoist

[TheSleeper]

Hi all,

I've owned this deck for a couple of years but rarely play it anymore because my meta is fairly hostile to it, with a number of discard/hymn as well as Emrakul decks.

Anyways, I feel its time to discuss a Blue splash again. Please don't direct me to a derelict Eternal Wind thread; I know of the decks existence, I am not arguing a return to full-on Wind. Merely what benefits splashing Blue can grant us.

1. Blue has been discussed before, why should it be considered again?
a) Brainstorm: I shouldn't have to list all the things this card is capable of, but here are a few:
-dodge discard, hiding your best pieces. In this regard its superior to things like Compost/Spiritual Focus because its effective on Turn 1 (not on the draw obviously).
-smooth out your draws immensely, finding what you need before shuffling away chaff - often important when trying to chain Enchantments for Solitary's upkeep
-combined with an Enchantress or two, gives the deck massive velocity, drawing 5+ cards a turn
-randomly activate a 'Words' card for 3 (I'm aware you'd have to put 2 back)
b) Seal of Removal: Great against decks with a few big threats (Team America, Sneak Attack, etc), this really sets them back in Tempo. Has nice synergy when you cast Replenish as well.
c) I have not thought to fit Words of Wind into the below list, however it has seen play before. Someone with more experience with Wind can possibly comment on it.
d) Mystic Remora - possible sideboard card, for use against discard/counter heavy decks. No need to keep it out indefinitely, it is for the early game.
e) There are plenty of other blue cards which may be viable; the deck is very tight once you add a 3rd colour so I have not explored them. I know Energy Field + Wheel of Sun & Moon has been brought up before, don't think its good enough however.

A) & B) alone grant us great consistency and utility as well as going towards improving two of our bad matchups, just for the sake of adding a few lands.

One thing I'm not sure on is which set of win conditions to go with under Blue. For the moment I have kept it standard with 1 War 1 Sigil. I would probably like a 4th Seal in the main if I could fit it. I really think if people test with Brainstorm they would see its power in this deck.

This is what I plan to test:

// Lands
4 [R] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
2 [TSP] Forest (4)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [TSP] Island (1)

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
1 [OD] Ground Seal
3 [B] Wild Growth
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
3 [IN] Sterling Grove
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
2 [UD] Replenish
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [ON] Words of War
2 [US] Exploration
3 [NE] Seal of Removal
1 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [OD] Ground Seal
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 2 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 3 [IA] Mystic Remora


Any thoughts appreciated.

[anonymos]

Hi all,

Please don't direct me to a derelict Eternal Wind thread; I know of the decks existence, I am not arguing a return to full-on Wind. Merely what benefits splashing Blue can grant us.


This is what I plan to test:

// Lands
4 [R] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
2 [TSP] Forest (4)
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [TSP] Island (1)

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
1 [OD] Ground Seal
3 [B] Wild Growth
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
3 [IN] Sterling Grove
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
2 [UD] Replenish
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [ON] Words of War
2 [US] Exploration
3 [NE] Seal of Removal
1 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [OD] Ground Seal
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 2 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 3 [IA] Mystic Remora


Any thoughts appreciated.

Go now!

You've destroyed the greatest asset the deck has as the build that is discussed here. A lack of heavy fear of wasteland. If you don't want to be chased back to the little kids table with the other eternal wind people, present something useful instead of the same thing they do. I yell at solitaire people too.

[TheSleeper]

I did present something useful; tools/ideas to combat popular decks in the meta. Compare this to your own post, which was just a flame.

[ForlornEgoist]

@ TheSleeper

I've always been rather fond of the black splash myself, but I can see how blue might have its merits, although I don't see either color getting much use anytime soon in tournaments (because Enchantress has been putting up so many Top 8's lately :laugh:).

Perhaps for starters you might want to consider dropping the Words of War for Words of Wilding. Albeit you're giving up the burn aspect of WoW which in certain scenario's is actually useful but by using Wilding instead you're not turning that 1 Sprawl into a dead card color-fixing wise for the rest of the deck. I'm also not the biggest fan of Exploration as it is incredibly dead early on, however I see you're running it as a 2-of meaning you most likely understand this and are just looking to provide a little extra tempo once you start drawing 2+ off of Enchantress.

In regards to Words of Wind I don't think it really has a place in the deck. Yeah, you get to bounce X permanants but after you've bounced the board it now has 0 interractions of any kind. It doesn't win you the game, it can't remove annoying creatures without significant investment as the opponent chooes the card to bounce, thus I would say that even since you're opting for a U splash it's just not necessary.

-1 Forest +1 Plains Yes, I know green is the most common color we need to have on the field and running 2+ basics is very helpful, however there are other forms of nonbasic hate beyond Waste and I think our decks runs enough white cards that even with a blue splash you'd want at least 1 basic plains. Or, if you're looking to keep the 2 basic forest, replace the basic island. Since it's a splash color for 7 cards which aren't relevant to the deck functioning as a whole I would say you could survive without having a basic of it. Of course, that's my opinion. Some people just prefer to have a basic for all colors.

As for the SB Mystic Remora seems solid for the combo MU. Since you have U you may consider Aether Barrier for the aggro MU (ie. Gobs/Merfolk, etc.) Although I'm not sure if the 3cc is too much or not. Although I suppose if you're worried aobut Gobs Chill would be a better option. You also get access to Aura Flux for annoying artifacts. If your worried about the control MU In the Eye of Chaos seems like it'd be a good selection. Oh, almost forgot: Shimmer. :laugh:

Sorry I can't be as much help, but blue is definitely one of my weaker colors which is why I never play it.


As many people know, I've never been an advocate of Emrakul but I was wondering if Hunting Grounds might be a good choice for people. Our deck has no problem getting Threshold and this would be a way for you to cheat him into play. Just food for thought.

Forlorn Egoist

[wcm8]

Emrakul is sooo 'win-more'. As has been stated many times, if you are in a position to play Emrakul, you've probably been in a winning position with another kill card earlier.

I have taken another approach to this deck by running 3 Sigils, 1 Words of War, 2 Dryad Arbor and 2 Green Sun's Zenith. Zenith can function as enchantress 9-10, or even as a Llanowar elf by fetching arbor (which also functions as a blocker to buy you more time).

Running so many Sigils makes you more aggressive in terms of actually winning. I don't have to dig/tutor as much, and can attempt to win before an opponent can dig for their explosives or deed.

[wcm8]

Nt

[ForlornEgoist]

My arguments against Emrakul are well-known, but even though I dislike it I'm still willing to assist other people with their preferred deck strategies.

Green Sun's Zenith seem like it could definitely find use in this deck for the aforementioned reasons. More Enchantress effects are always useful, it's a turn faster (in the beginning) than my Wish->Enchantress, and it even lets you tutor up an extra land. Heck, if it was to your flavor you could even use it to tutor up a Shusher or Pridemage. The Dryad tutor is also a conveinant (and essentially better) replacement for people looking to run ESP or Mox.

Forlorn Egoist

[grahf]

Thanks for your thoughts Forlorn Egoist.

It seems that the "in vogue" mana accel for Enchantress has changed over the years. Back in the day it was ESG, or Exploration, then Chrome Mox was cool, but most builds I've seen posted recently run neither and opt for 4/4 Growth/Sprawl. Being out of touch with the competitive meta, I was just wondering if there was a particular reason why; I guess not as there are arguments in favor and against all around.

Actually the biggest reason to not play ESG/Mox is the same reason I'd be skeptical of Brainstorm: each deck slot that isn't an enchantment weakens the engine.

I think the theory with WoWind is that your opponent will scoop after you bounce their board and can do so repeatedly? Of course, if they don't, you have to keep playing until you find a real win-con, which you have fewer slots for because you are running WoWind.

Ah also, I forgot that Compost existed, which does seem more versatile than Spiritual Focus.

[lep]

I just took 6th at a local event with 38 players, some of which were pretty high caliber players.

//MAIN
3 Plains
5 Forest
1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Serra's Sanctum

1 Words of War
1 Words of Wind
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

4 Sterling Grove

2 Solitary Confinement
3 Replenish
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat
1 Humility
2 Runed Halo

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
2 Mirri's Guile

//SIDEBOARD
1 Runed Halo
1 Aura of Silence
2 Blood Moon
1 City of Solitude
2 Choke
1 Karmic Justice
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Humility
1 Ground Seal
4 Leyline of Sanctity

In the main event I was paired against a 4C control build (Akin to GerryT's 4C top), NO Bant, Junk, and Fish, then I drew into top 8. There I was paired against a Tezz Stax concoction that kept me 1 mana shy of going nuts after scooping round 1 to a third turn Words of Wind with a Presence on board.

That only thing I was really unhappy with is the second Humility in board. Even against heavy creature decks, the one main with the replenish \ groves were more than enough. I would substitute that for a second Aura of Silence.

I played this same deck last night in a 19 man event with the change of -1 Humility in board for +1 Aura of Silence. Round 1 I lost to TES, Round 2 I beat some Wizard concoction, round 3 I beat Affinity, and round 4 I beat Excalibur. I ended up 4th due to breakers.

Is there anything we can do to improve the combo matchup? I started the game with 2 Leylines of Sanctity and still lost. A couple of weeks back I had a Sterling Grove and a Leyline and I lost.

Has anyone tried anything that has worked? Null Rod? Chalice? Pyrostatic Pillar?

[Masamune]

I played this same deck last night in a 19 man event with the change of -1 Humility in board for +1 Aura of Silence. Round 1 I lost to TES, Round 2 I beat some Wizard concoction, round 3 I beat Affinity, and round 4 I beat Excalibur. I ended up 4th due to breakers.

Is there anything we can do to improve the combo matchup? I started the game with 2 Leylines of Sanctity and still lost. A couple of weeks back I had a Sterling Grove and a Leyline and I lost.

Has anyone tried anything that has worked? Null Rod? Chalice? Pyrostatic Pillar?

My current SB:
3x Null Rods
2x Leylines (2x MD)
4x Orim's Chant
2x Wheel of Sun and Moon (most players forget this against I'll-Goten. It's a bomb)

Just 13 hates :eek:
Of course, I aways mull to start with any stuff in my hand

[Hisa]

I played this same deck last night in a 19 man event with the change of -1 Humility in board for +1 Aura of Silence. Round 1 I lost to TES, Round 2 I beat some Wizard concoction, round 3 I beat Affinity, and round 4 I beat Excalibur. I ended up 4th due to breakers.

Is there anything we can do to improve the combo matchup? I started the game with 2 Leylines of Sanctity and still lost. A couple of weeks back I had a Sterling Grove and a Leyline and I lost.

Has anyone tried anything that has worked? Null Rod? Chalice? Pyrostatic Pillar?

You can make the whole board hate, but Enchantress has a shitty match vs belcher and ANT style combo. You can mise games with tight play and some luck, but, for the most part, you're a non interactive combo deck that goes off way slower than they do. IMO its just a better call not to play the deck if you're expecting a ton of combo.

[GoldenCid]

Ithink that null rod is a good adittion for the combo match up, i'm actually running: 4 LoS + 2 Null rod!

[lep]

Magic of Mind 1U
Enchantment (R)
Whenever an opponent shuffles his library you may look at the top 2 cards of that players library. You may choose one of these cards and exile it. Then put those cards back on top of the library in any order.

Opinion on this spoiled card? Seems like an interesting niche card. It completely blanks Enlightened Tutor and may have some uses against something like TES in place of Humility or another larger casting cost card.

[Dack]

I'm personally more interested in this spoiler :

"Phyrexian Unlife"
Rare
2w
Enchantment
You do not lose the game for having 0 or less life.
While you are at 0 or less life, all sources of damage to you gains Infect.


If I understand it well and if it's the real text, it's basically a card that allows you to have "30" life points, and to ignore life loss effects. If yes it may become a very good card for Enchantress.

[lep]

I'm personally more interested in this spoiler :

"Phyrexian Unlife"
Rare
2w
Enchantment
You do not lose the game for having 0 or less life.
While you are at 0 or less life, all sources of damage to you gains Infect.


If I understand it well and if it's the real text, it's basically a card that allows you to have "30" life points, and to ignore life loss effects. If yes it may become a very good card for Enchantress.

If it is the real wording it would negate the loss of life from Tendrils.

[Nonex]

Nothing that Leyline of Sanctity and Runed Halo can't do, and both are cheaper to cast. Against everything else, Solitary Confinement is generally better. I could only see a chance for it in a meta full of Zoo decks, just to buy time for a Confinement setup.

[Dack]

Nothing that Leyline of Sanctity and Runed Halo can't do, and both are cheaper to cast. Against everything else, Solitary Confinement is generally better. I could only see a chance for it in a meta full of Zoo decks, just to buy time for a Confinement setup.

The effects of Leyline and Runed Halo are not that powerful.

I see Phyrexian Unlife as a "little" less powerful Confinement, but with no short term/significant drawback. I mean you could play it without an enchantress effect on the board, to buy time to settle yourself, and it would still offer a more global protection than Leyline/Halo.

And why would it be more useful against Zoo than other decks ? All the decks kill by reducing life total to 0.

Nah if the wording is correct I'll certainly try it out. Even if it's a dangerous card to play with.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

It's essentially a 3 mana enchantment that gains 10 life. It might be useful against storm combo, especially depending on how it interacts with life loss in the final wording. It seems better than Halo because of Halo's double white, which requires you to mess up your mana base to support.

[ForlornEgoist]

I've long since dropped Halo instead opting for a more O-Ring heavy build, but for those Enchantress players who still MD Halos this card seems like it might be a more optimal substitution. The issue I've had with Halo is the same I'm sure many have had where you have to create a less-than-ideal manabase in order to meet the WW requirments. At 2W Unlife is not only reasonably cast but it can compel Belcher/TES players to win via the EtW route of which is the more easily dealt with wincon (although this might be a moot argument anyway as both builds can easily Wish for an answer, TES more so than Belcher). Also to add is that this card, unlike our other outs to combo, also provides us with an extra 1-2 turns against aggro and, unlike Grass/Confinment, requires no extra investment on our part. The main thing to remember, however, is that card isn't something you'd want to see multiples of so I could see it perhaps as being at most a 1-2 of.

ForlornEgoist

[NycEMS]

Unlife doesnt seem to do anything more in the storm matchup then solitay leyline or halo do unless you can get multiple effects on the board or protect them with grove they'll just bounce it and kill you. At least imo correct me if im wrong.

[addaro]

Hello,

does anyone play this deck on Magic Online? How are you doing with it? I saw a lot of combo decks in the top decks (4-0, 3-1) but there is supposed to be a lot of budget decks in that metagame, which we crush hard. It is pretty cheap online and Im thinking of buying it thats why I ask...

Thank you for answers!

[Hisa]

Replenish isn't legal on MTGO until this weekend.

[anonymos]

I've picked this up for MODO. I'm playing my usual build, but have run into an issue. Cephalid Breakfast is destroying me. I'm running 2 wheel, a 4th confinement, dueling grounds, and runed halo out of the board. I think I may have to hunt down ground seal online to make this happen.

Other suggestions?

To address Addaro's question, I'm having fun crushing all the guys playing KotR and Dark Confidant when they don't have double discard to start. I'm seeing a few more FoW than I had expected, but Daze is almost non existent thanks to Nemesis not being available yet. It still is around, via JvC boxed set, but not in big numbers.

[wcm8]

I haven't been playing this deck much lately, but one suggestion I would make is running 2 Green Sun's Zenith in the main.

This brings your virtual Enchantress count up to 10, which should give you a very good chance of your opening hand having action. I also run a single Dryad Arbor, so that if I don't really need the Zenith to get an Argothian, I can use Zenith as a Llanowar Elf turn one or later on. Zenith also functions as a shuffle effect if you have a Guile out, or post-board it can fetch up a Vexing Shusher or Gaddock Teeg.

The Dryad Arbor also helps buy some extra time against attacking Goyfs, and has caught a Goblin player by surprise when I fetched it when his Lackey attacked.

With Merfolk becoming _the_ Deck To Beat and combo further hurt with Misstep, Enchantress seems pretty well-positioned in the current metagame.

[mishrazz]

I won a local Legacy tourney this spring (17 players) With this build.

CREATURES (4)
4 Argothian Enchantress

ENCHANTMENTS (31)
4 Sterling Grove
4 Wild Growth
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress’s Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Moat
1 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence
1 City of Solitude
1 Exploration
1 Mirri’s Guile
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Words of War

SORCERIES (2)
2 Replenish

INSTANTS (1)
1 Enlightened Tutor

ARTIFACTS (1)
1 Chrome Mox

LANDS (21)
8 Forest
3 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
2 Serra’s Sanctum

SIDEBOARD
1 Seal of Primordium
1 City of Solitude
2 Choke
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Lignify
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Lifeforce
1 Suppression Field
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock teeg

Game 1. Enchantress (mirror match) 2-0 My maindeck Aura of silence was golden in this game.
Game 2. Goblins 1-2 Super fast clock. i keep a bad hand and also make another mistake.
Game 3. Merfolk 2-0 The elephant grass keeps you alive, and when they run out of counter. Go Replenish!
Game 4. Faeries 1-2 Very close game. But i got chrushed by engineered explosives and Tombstalker w/jitte
Game 5. CounterTop 2-0 Once enchantress hits the table, they can't stop you. + Replenish & City of solitude.

With my 9 points i barely sneak into the top 8.

Q-finals. against TES 2-1 He crushed me in the first of course but post boarding i had lucky draws. Leyline and sterling grove won me match 2, and Gaddock teeg bought me enough time in game 3 to get Confinement online.

S-finals against Goblins 2-1. I got my sweet revenge on the goblins. Grass and moat did the job right this time.

Final against Faeries. 2-1 I also got my revenge on the faeries, and this time i choked him, and city of solitude gave me peace and quiet to draw my cards and do my thing.

I was lucky against storm this time, but Enchantress worked great in this meta. My basic lands made their wastes and stifles useless, and i had SB answers against control.
I have replaced the chrome mox with another exploration since this build, i just did'nt like the mox.

[honz]

recently came back to magic and been having good results with enchantress again. The addition of 2 green sun's zenith (as suggested) is a great addition. Ups the enchantress count, finds a land (dryad arbor), and helps in the combo matchup with teeg coming out of the board. It also could stop you from milling yourself if that's relevant.

Against the current meta, you have a solid game against merfolk, ichorid, stax/MUD and possibly gobbos/zoo. As usual, the thresh/blue based control/rock are almost always close matches that could go either way. Any fast combo is going to be a long shot, but that's just the nature of the deck. Even with 4 leylines, teeg (+zenith), halo coming out of my board, i lose the majority of the time. Slower combos like show and tell, no/progen, high tide seem to be about even though. Regardless, mental misstep might deter some combo players, so maybe a good time to pick up enchantress again

any thoughts on show and tell/sneak attack? Ive only played it a couple times but it seems like an up and coming deck that's going to see a good amount of play.

my list for reference/comments:
--Land (20)
3 plains
6 forest
1 taiga
2 savannah
4 windswept heath
1 misty rainforest
1 dryad arbor
2 serra's sanctum

4 argothian enchantress
4 enchantress presence
2 green sun's zenith

2 exploration
4 wild growth
4 utopia sprawl

4 elephant grass
4 sterling grove
3 solitary confinement
2 oblivion ring
1 runed halo
1 moat
1 mirri's guile

2 replenish
1 words of war
1 sigil of empty throne


--Sideboard
4 leyline of sanctity
2 gaddock teeg
3 choke
2 city of solitude
1 blood moon
1 titania's song
1 karmic justice
1 humility

[GoldenCid]

How did humility work with argothian?

[Maëlig]

I'd try to fit xantid as a one-of in the SB to get with zenith. Seems better than shusher, less mana hungry and the only advantage of shusher (can't be countered) is mitigated by the fact that you usually get it out with zenith (which can be countered whether you get shusher or xantid, but dodges CB).

[anonymos]

How did humility work with argothian?

Not very well. YOu draw the card when you cast Humility, but beyond that it's a 1/1.

[lep]

What are everyone's thoughts on Ancestral Knowledge?



1U - Enchantment
Cumulative upkeep (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)

When Ancestral Knowledge enters the battlefield, look at the top ten cards of your library, then exile any number of them and put the rest back on top of your library in any order.

When Ancestral Knowledge leaves the battlefield, shuffle your library.


Seems solid to set up enchantment chains akin to old Goblin Food Chain decks. It also lets you pull out extraneous lands and go more aggressive early game.

[anonymos]

I'm not actually sure what to think of it. In theory it could be good, but generally there aren't things you want to exile. I guess it would have to go into the E. Tutor slot if it were going to go into my deck. It would also have to change colors. Blue isn't usually played in Solitaire.

On a different topic, I came in 31st yesterday at the SC Indy Legacy event. My list looks a bit different from normal. No Blood Moon. I also played 2 Green Sun's Zenith that were amazing. If you haven't tried them yet, they're worth a shot. They can also be recycled when your library is nearly empty (cast with X=2 or more to prevent Mental Misstep and Spell Snare) to help keep you alive if you need an extra swing because you miscounted or found Words too late. I'd post my list, but I think we clog this thread with lists often enough as it is. PM if interested in it. 6-3 with losses to Reanimator (placed 2nd), combo elves (placed 19), and U/W/B Stoneblade (placed 11).

[Anarky87]

I'm not actually sure what to think of it. In theory it could be good, but generally there aren't things you want to exile. I guess it would have to go into the E. Tutor slot if it were going to go into my deck. It would also have to change colors. Blue isn't usually played in Solitaire.

On a different topic, I came in 31st yesterday at the SC Indy Legacy event. My list looks a bit different from normal. No Blood Moon. I also played 2 Green Sun's Zenith that were amazing. If you haven't tried them yet, they're worth a shot. They can also be recycled when your library is nearly empty (cast with X=2 or more to prevent Mental Misstep and Spell Snare) to help keep you alive if you need an extra swing because you miscounted or found Words too late. I'd post my list, but I think we clog this thread with lists often enough as it is. PM if interested in it. 6-3 with losses to Reanimator (placed 2nd), combo elves (placed 19), and U/W/B Stoneblade (placed 11).

I think I watched a bunch of your games, because I have a soft spot for Enchantress, and my friends and I were psyched (maybe it was just me, they loathe Enchantress) to see it doing pretty well. Were you the guy in the Wiid shirt? Grats on the finish.

[lep]

I'm not actually sure what to think of it. In theory it could be good, but generally there aren't things you want to exile. I guess it would have to go into the E. Tutor slot if it were going to go into my deck. It would also have to change colors. Blue isn't usually played in Solitaire.

On a different topic, I came in 31st yesterday at the SC Indy Legacy event. My list looks a bit different from normal. No Blood Moon. I also played 2 Green Sun's Zenith that were amazing. If you haven't tried them yet, they're worth a shot. They can also be recycled when your library is nearly empty (cast with X=2 or more to prevent Mental Misstep and Spell Snare) to help keep you alive if you need an extra swing because you miscounted or found Words too late. I'd post my list, but I think we clog this thread with lists often enough as it is. PM if interested in it. 6-3 with losses to Reanimator (placed 2nd), combo elves (placed 19), and U/W/B Stoneblade (placed 11).

Sure, I'd love to take a look. I already was splashing blue for words of wind. I am diverting from that though and will probably try out Ancestral Knowledge. Worst case scenario it is a can-tripping tutor. I have high hopes for it though.

[anonymos]

I think I watched a bunch of your games, because I have a soft spot for Enchantress, and my friends and I were psyched (maybe it was just me, they loathe Enchantress) to see it doing pretty well. Were you the guy in the Wiid shirt? Grats on the finish.

I think I was in a blue T-shirt with Mario on it. OMG bright yellow playmat and blue sleeves. I spent most of the day at the top row of tables. The bulk of my deck is foreign (Green Sun's Zenith and Vexing Shusher were the only English cards). Not sure if it was me you were watching, but that'd be the way to identify me. I'm also 6'4.

[Anarky87]

I think I was in a blue T-shirt with Mario on it. OMG bright yellow playmat and blue sleeves. I spent most of the day at the top row of tables. The bulk of my deck is foreign (Green Sun's Zenith and Vexing Shusher were the only English cards). Not sure if it was me you were watching, but that'd be the way to identify me. I'm also 6'4.

Yup, it was you I was watching then. Remembered the playmat and the foreign cards.

Edit: I thought it was kinda funny the number of people who had to have Carpet of Flowers explained to them. Also, if you could PM your list, I'd like to update my list and see what all people are running now.

[mishrazz]

any thoughts on show and tell/sneak attack? Ive only played it a couple times but it seems like an up and coming deck that's going to see a good amount of play.


I play both Enchantress and sneak & tell, and love both decks. I tried my sneak & tell twice in local legacy tourneys, and both times it got me to the finals. It is also a very bad match-up for enchantress.

[GreenOne]

New Card! Interesting the fact that has an inithial only W cc, and that can take care of Sneak Attacking creatures.

Name: Soul Snare
Cost: {W}
Type: Enchantment
Rules Text: {W}, Sacrifice Soul Snare: Exile target creature that's attacking you or a planeswalker you control.
Rarity: Uncommon

[Nameless Two]

It has the minor downside of still requiring you to sacrifice 6 permanents to Emrakul and not being able to deal with Progenitus though ;)

[ForlornEgoist]

I would say that S&T package is the most prominent "cheat" package we'll deal with as it is also used in UR Painter and various other homebrews. SA itself is seeing less and less play whereas NO Bant is starting to make somewhat of a comeback.

Upping your O-Ring count to 3-4 and running 2-3 E. Tutors is more than sufficient to negate a S&T Emrakul, and Prog still can't get around Moat/Confinement/Grass (esp. Grass; just love it when they atk, I point and say "Grass...?" then they realize that he's a black creature :tongue:).

Soul Snare isn't horrible in that it can provide a little extra protection in the first 1-5(6/7) turns which are the golden opportunity for aggro, but the issue I would have with it is that our decks design typically warrants universal answers rather than just attacking creatures. Of course removing a Lackey or pumped-up KotR are completely relevant but in those first few turns fetching for a White isn't always ideal, particularly when our average T1/2/3 involves Forests, Growth/Sprawls, and some combination of Enchantress effects all which necessitate green. 'Course, haven't done playtesting yet.

On a random note, someone in my meta randomly had a Moat sitting in his binder. I got all excited, offering him 'Goyfs/Duals/Sexual favors(:laugh:) but he said "Oh, y'know, not for trade. Same with all the duals and that Tabernacle." I hate when people put cards in a TRADE binder that aren't for trade. I'm never gonna get a Moat. =(

Forlorn Egoist

[Demoniaki]

Well, at least i got my Moat =P!

IMO, the best SB against SneakShow is Humility... and not only against it, but against Zoo it's working better than Moat...

[anonymos]

On a random note, someone in my meta randomly had a Moat sitting in his binder. I got all excited, offering him Sexual favors(:laugh:)

Forlorn Egoist

I have an English Signed (Richard Garfield) Moat for trade if you're cute enough. ;)

I like the look of Soul Snare, but have no idea what it's from. It at least earns some testing time in my opinion. BTW - if sneak/show decks are dominant in your area, try moving Humility to your main deck.

[Fjedsen]

Soul Snare is from M12 !

Already thought about putting it into my list but i think Confinement + Grass is a good setup against aggro.

@anonymus: Could you pm me your list ? I am really interested in what it looks like !

Greets

[Masamune]

My current list have 1x Oblivion, 1x Karakas, 1x Emrakul. I know that isn't enough againt Sneak decks, but I don't realize wich card isn't terrible in my SB to start think how import is replaceble compared with grave hates and other stuffs. BTW Soul Snare isn't terrible but facing Emrkul and another Anihilators this just can do nothing =(

[ForlornEgoist]

Okay, so after toiling away weeks of goldfishing and tournaments I am starting to like Living Wish less and less for the deck. I'm not saying I've grown to hate the card but something I am starting to see is that it seems less-than-efficient for the deck. In Aggro Loam, yes, you can easily justify a Wish board because the deck already has stand-alone resilience even post-board. Enchantress, however, is much easier to damage post-SB because of cards like Canonist and board-sweepers like Harmonic Convergence and Tranquility. Right now this is my Wish plan:

MD
3 Living Wish
SB
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Peacekeeper
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Serra's Sanctum

Thats 9 slots of space getting eaten up that could be used to help improve my chances against control. Emrakul in SB seems moot since I can't cast him until I won and he really only finds use by me in the Mirror. Argothain 9/10 still sets me back a turn if I cast Wish in the beginning of the game, and while I won't diss that Sanctum as a Wish target, it could just as easily be MDed. Overall, I'm starting to see that because our protection is so universal we don't really need a Wish board to answer specific threats. So, the current plan is to remove it from my deck.

IMO a Wishboard can work for our deck but at least in my current limited meta of 20-25 people I'm not getting very favorable returns on it. I will be moving to a new city soon so hopefully the new meta I'll have is much more forgiving of a Wish board. ^.^

So, I'm obviously looking to fill the slots. Has anyone had any successful testing with GSZ? I'm currently running it in Rock but I'm not getting much use out of it as my Rock list is incredibly tight. Has it worked out for anyone thus far? (GSZ ->Shusher/Teeg/Argothian seems favorable)

I'm also considering throwing in a Primal Order or 2 after seeing their success from a fellow Enchantress player tonight (of course he can afford to put 2 Moats in his deck so thats probably why they worked -.-).

So.... yeah.

Forlorn Egoist

[ESG]

I ran two GSZ and a Dryad Arbor in my build back in winter. Wasn't so hot. I hated the fact they shuffled back in, because they increased my chances of dead draws when I had Confinement up and needed to hit more enchantments. GSZ is great in an aggro deck that wants utility, but all we want is another set of Enchantresses. I liked Wordly Tutor better than GSZ. I played it back before Misstep was printed. I'm running Verduran Enchantresses now to supplement. I recommend them if your meta is heavily blue. Against Merfolk they're almost as good as Argothian, and against the heavy control strategies they get around Spell Snare (and fewer people are running Daze). The wishboard is slow, and this deck has enough problem matchups that it can be hard to justify. I feel it can work in a smaller tournament where you know more of the players and the decks, but I wouldn't run it in a large tournament with a wide-open meta.

[Just me]

I really enjoy the GSZ + Dryad Arbor. It's another way to get 3 mana = Enchantress Presence on turn 2. This does improve the consistency of the deck.

Swapping GSZ with Tutor doesn't do much for drawing to many non enchantments late game. Besides, having an additional Enchantress without costing a draw should draw you past it anyway.

What would put GSZ over the top is a maindeck wincon like maybe Knight of the Reliquary which get's S. Sanctuum or red mana for the Words of War. Or a Hexproof beatstick like Thrun (but I think his power is too low) to help close out games when time is running out. Or maybe some pre-sideboaring maindeck with a Shusher.

I'm not fond of Verduaran Enchatress at all. And it might be better as Mesa Enchantress to dodge Perish which people might ocassionally SB vs the Argothian Enchantress. But I would play neither.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Green Sun's Zenith should pretty much be an auto-include at this point; it's the additional Enchantresses that the deck has been needing, and doesn't cost CA. With 8x Growth effects and a couple ESGs/Mox/Lotus Petals, it pushes the consistency of the deck up dramatically. The only real question is how many to run; I was running 2 for a while but I'm going to be trying 4 for the next few weeks and see how it goes.

It also allows you some neat SB options like Qasali Pridemage and Gaddock Teeg. I've been tinkering around with an experimental conversional board; this is what I have so far:

1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Terravore
1x Yavimaya Enchantress
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Dauntless Escort
1x Burning Tree Shaman
1x Uktabi Orangutan
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Scavenging Ooze

I've been taking out Words of War, Argothians, Replenish, and some number of Groves/Explorations/Ground Seals. I'm leaving the Presences in because there are still enough enchantments for them to be threats. Obviously a lot of this plan is dependent on the opponent being smart enough to side out their removal; assuming that that's the case, it's seemed promising in the limited testing I've done.

Thoughts on better beaters/utility creatures to bring in?

[anonymos]

If you're going that route Spatula, you may want to look into Vexing Shusher as another "threat" to silver bullet in. I like him. As far as a big dumb guy, look into Thaumatog. He looks like he'd be an interesting finisher.

[honz]

i think gsz is a great card i this deck, however i think its best used to supplement your original gameplan of land an enchantress, play enchantments, draw a bunch of cards. I don't really understand why you would cut an argothian for a card thats an argothian tutor 90% of the time. Some of the creatures you listed have abilities that are accomplished just as easily by enchantment cards, which fit much better into the deck. ugtabi/qasali pridemage = oblivion ring, eternal witness = replenish. I'm afraid i dont see what match-up i would rather have a gsz creature toolbox than my standard enchantress deck.

I have considered running a green creature beatstick as an alternative win con, but my leaning has always been toward progenitus. I haven't actually tested him though, but seems like a decent idea in theory, but he might lean towards winmore.

[wcm8]

Progenitus is absolutely win-more. If you can get to 11 mana for GSZ, you're better off just getting to 15 for Emrakual since he's uncounterable and typically wins the game on the spot.

My current list is looking like this:

4 Presence
4 Argothian
2 GSZ
4 E Grass
4 Sterling Grove
3 S Confinement
1 Moat
2 Replenish
3 Win Condition (1 Sigil, 1 WoW, then 1 more Sigil or Emrakul)
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Blood Moon / Choke / City of Solitude (meta-dependent)
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Wild Growth
4 Oblivion Ring
21 Lands

SB:
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Leyline of Sanctity
[7 Metagame slots]

I feel like 8 Wild Growths are too many, you want to be laying lands and dropping bombs, not twiddling around just ramping mana. That's why I run 4 Oblivion Ring, because it can deal with just about anything that your protective spells can't handle.

Emrakul, in addition to being a late game win condition, also functions as a game 1 answer to Painter's Stone -- it is rather difficult for them to deal with this at least pre-sideboard. It can also be useful in corner cases to prevent decking yourself by shuffling your graveyard back. However, the 2nd Sigil is usually just better and if you don't expect Painter then it's likely the best option.

Re: the sideboard, Faerie Macabre is perhaps the best graveyard answer to Reanimator and Cephalid Breakfast (if you ever lose to Dredge, you are most likely an idiot -- the only scary card they can Dread Return against you is Realm Razer, and McFae handles that as well). Leyline helps deal with burn, discard, and various combo win conditions, and can hopefully slow the opponent down enough for you to establish a board position.

Enchantress is a fantastic deck for the right metagame, but I would never bring it to a huge open field -- it just gets stomped by a lot of combo decks and is too reactive against other decks. Locally though, it can tear up a field of blue control, merfolk, and aggro decks.

[anonymos]

Enchantress is a fantastic deck for the right metagame, but I would never bring it to a huge open field -- it just gets stomped by a lot of combo decks and is too reactive against other decks. Locally though, it can tear up a field of blue control, merfolk, and aggro decks.

And that's the difference between you and me. I back up my theory with results. 2/2 making top 32 for Star City Events with the deck. If there were more nearby (Michigan sucks) when I had funds to go, I may have 3 or 4 on that count.

I'm going to disagree with you about 8 Wild Growths. The goal is a turn 2 Enchantress Effect. By dropping 2 Wild Growths you reduce the likelyhood of being able to lead with Wild Growth into E. Presence. It also reduces your ability to avoid Daze on your Argothian. Yes, it's vulnerable to MM, but I'd rather merfolk tag a wild growth than an elephant grass with it.

[wcm8]

Top 32 is nice, but not exactly good enough to classify it as a definitive result. What decks did you lose to?

Daze is overall less popular than it used to be. Blue decks seem to be running stuff like Spell Snare, Counterspell, and of course FoW and MM. I'm not saying you shouldn't sometimes play around Daze, but playing 8 growth effects is a bit too many in my opinion, when you could be using those 1-2 slots for additional bombs. Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed are also very popular sideboard cards, and in such cases I'd have rather have made another land drops than played a growth. In my list, you could consider cutting one land for the 3rd Wild Growth, but I have to mulligan more often due to not having enough lands than not having a turn 2 enchantress.

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

For the GSZ creature-board, maybe Knight of the Reliquary? Crop Rotation on a stick, can dig for Sanctum, Wasteland, Karakas, Gaea's Cradle, Arbor, and protects your Savannahs from Wastelands. She can also be a beater, especially if you have a land discard outlet. She also opens up sideboard possibilities like Bojuka Bog.

[ForlornEgoist]

Blood Moon <- Wasteland; Think about what lands would be the biggest threat to us. Realistically, Academy Ruins because of EE shenanigans is the only threat we'd have to worry about and as Lands is the primary deck to be running this (Landstill/Ux Control but they're less common) and Enchantress for Lands is already an uphill battle. True, 1 could argue Karakas as a threat to our Emrakul, but then we still get that free turn and just recast him. Moon also draws a card for us, can be recurred via Replenish, and tutored for with 6-7 of our tutors (Sterling/ETutor). Yeah, turns off Sanctum but we can manage whereas a Moon utterly destroys some opponents.

Cradle/Arbor: Why? What do they honestly provide for our deck?
Savannah protection: Not every builds runs them nor do I ever really care if they waste 1 dual when I have basics enchanted with 1-2 Sprawl/Growth.

Albeit she provides an extra beater but she dies to removal which, when last I checked, was considered less-than-effective to validate your opponents cards. Not to mention that running a toolbox forces us to compromises basics and thereby weaken our opening hands for the ability to have a "silverbullet," strategy in a deck that has enchantments for universal answers. Moon negates they're nonbasics, Ground Seal negates GY (over Bog), O-Ring negates Emrakul in majority cases (as Enchantress/Elves are the only 2 decks capable of ramping him out thus meaning S&T is the most likely Emrakul cheat).

I mean, I think you could justify GSZ for creatures like Teeg or Vexing Shusher that solve valid weaknesses of the deck. The problem with cards like KotR/Wish is that they are greedy cards that want you to compromise some deck consistency for the ability to possibly answer any threat you could encounter. The thing you need to ask yourself in regards to KotR is that what does she provide that isn't already provided to a greater extent in an enchantment?

Not trying to shoot your idea down entirely I just don't think KotR is optimal for GSZ. I think that with GSZ we just need to focus on using 1-2 deck slots for creatures that actually fix problems rather than trying to build a deck focused entirely on GSZ manipulation. For us its more of a side-trick whereas decks like Zoo (and Rock to a lesser extent) can focus more heavily on its use.

Forlorn Egoist

[Just me]

Nice post ForlornEgoist.

I think, if we agree that GSZ belongs MD, then we can agree that a tutorable wincon which fits the deck would be a blessing. Why?

I play 2-3 win cons (1 WoW, 1 Sigil and sometimes a 2nd Sigil or 1 Emrakul). They can be hard to find at times and cracking that Sterling Grove can ben outright dangerous.

So IF there was a green Emrakul, or a Yavimaya Enchantress with shroud,... or something else useful and synergistic to the deck, I would love to play it.

[Fjedsen]

Played this list in a small tournament yesterday:

3 Argothian Enchantress

4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Sterling Growth
4 Enchantress Presence
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Elephant Grass
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Lignify
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Runed Halo
1 Ground Seal

3 Chrome Mox
2 Replenish
4 Living Wish

1 Serra Sanctum
2 Plains
10 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah

Sideboard:
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Choke
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Karmic Justice
1 Aura of Silence
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Faerie Macabre

Pretty standart.
I played Lignify beause in my region a real "meta" doesn't exist. I expected a lot of cheaper aggro decks like Dredge, Gobbos, BW Discard, ...

Here a small overview:

1. Round - Lands
In the first game I draw pretty solid and he concedes after I play Sigil of the Empty Throne and have Sterling Grove, Solitary Confinement, double Presence on the board. I brought in 2 Choke, 1 Wheel of Sund and Moon, 1 Aura of Silence

I loose the second game, due to some misboarding (took out Elephant Grass, he brought in Confies).

Third game ends in the extra turns.

0-0-1

2. Round - BW Discard
I win the first game with a couple of angel tokens. My opponent didn't really know the deck and made some wrong choices (e.g. toughtseizing my Elephant Grass over Presence). Brought in 1 Karmic Justice beacause I saw Vindicate in the first game

He is flooded in the second game. So I have no problem to evolve my board.

1-0-1

3. Round - MBC
He puts a lot of preasure on the board with 1st turn Duress, 2nd Turn Hymn, 3rd Turn Ritual into Hypnotic Specter + Hymn. I can stall the game with Elephant Grass. But I was to greedy and played Confinement with a single Enchantress Effect on the board. I didn't draw enough enchantments and had to sacc the Confinement and he kills me on the following turn with Consume Spirit. Brought in 3 Leyline of Sanctity

I start with a trip to Paris and double Leyline in my opener. He concedes after the 3rd or 4th turn because he couldn't play any spell in his hand.

He mulls to 5 and keeps a very slow hand with Nantuko Shade and Hyppie and no discard. I can stall with Elephant Grass and can play a Confiment with 2 Enchantress effects. He concedes after I played Living Wish for Emrakul.

2-0-1

4. Round - UW Landstill with Mystics
I don't know what happened first game, but he doesn't counter more than 2 spells I am able to kill him with Emrakul. Boarded 2 Chokes, 1 Karmic Justice

He wins the second game really fast with 2nd turn Mystic (-> Batterskull), 3rd turn Standstill and 4th turn Batterskull + Standstill

Last game goes into extra rounds and nobody is able to win it (needed one more turn)

2-0-2

I became 4th due to points.

OVERALL: I really love this deck. I played for the first time in a tournament and surely made some misstakes. I need some more practice with this deck, so I am able to win vs. Lands without makeing such stupid misstakes ;).
The wishboard worked very well for me, because I didn't know what decks to expect. Glacial Chasm was awesome against 2 decks, Vexing Shusher did a great job. But most of the time I fetched Argothian Enchantress or Sanctum.
Changes: I want to cut down the Moxes, and the Wishes and perhaps playing GSZ.
I also want to try a version with WoW and Blood Moon.

So long ... Greetz !

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I posted this on Sal and feel the need to re-iterate;

Emrakul is 15 mana. He doesn't give you an extra turn. If you cast him, you spent your entire turn casting him. He's a one of, so you have no way of tutoring for him, which means you're probably only drawing him if the engine is running. If the engine is running, it takes about 12 mana to win with Words of War, 15 including casting it the same turn. It's tutorable with Sterling Grove and obviously has synergy with the rest of the deck.

There is no reason to run Emrakul in this deck. Ever.

anon- Forgot about Shusher. Will definitely test it.

re: KotR - I thought about it, but without its support shell, it seems much weaker than Terravore.

[Digital Devil]

Hi guys - after 16 months (+7 months of playtesting) piloting Dredge, I wanted to try something different. I loathe blue decks, that's why I decided to try Enchantress. It took me a lot to read the whole thread, but the deck seemed very promising and fun to play, so I put this clunky list together:

-----------------------------------------
// Lands
7 [ALA] Forest (4)
4 [ALA] Plains (2)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
2 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
4 [7E] Wild Growth
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [UD] Replenish
2 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
2 [VI] City of Solitude
2 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 [ON] Words of War
1 [LG] Moat

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 2 [OD] Ground Seal
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
-----------------------------------------

2x Seal of Primordium because I dislike Living Wish: they cost the same, but Seal is an enchantment, and takes care of Canonist/Stoneforge Mystic. It's also good against Affinity and the mirror, and can wreak havoc with Replenish. 2x City of Solitude because I want to cast my spells without fear of them being countered. No Lignify, because here I'm the only one who ever played Iona, and if I'm playing Enchantress there's no way I'm facing that 7/7. O-Ring is also pretty good against Emrakul and Jace TMS. No Sacred Mesa because I find it way too slow and archaic. With that same amount of mana I could chain enchantments into a million flying 4/4s. Pardon me for being a bad player, but I also dislike Blood Moon. I found it useless most times - the singleton Taiga is just for WoW, which is just insane in this deck. The only thing that doesn't convince me enough is Mindbreak Trap, but I still managed to win against ANT on the back of it. I'm currently 6-1-1 with the deck, losing only against BG Depths, with me mulling down to 4 with 2x nonbasics and him going Wasteland/Wasteland/Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth/Dark Depths/Vampire Hexmage. I find the deck quite solid, but any hint is appreciated: not only I'm like the worst player ever, but I'm just getting started with Enchantress, so please be cruel and help me recognize my errors.

[Nonex]

What could I say... Such a straightforward list is probably the best you could have started with. I like everything in there and I understand your reasons to include (or not) certain cards. I'd just cut 1 Elephant Grass for 1 Green Sun's Zenith, and probably change the Seals for 2 Auras of Silence; the double white shouldn't be a problem and they wreak even more havoc, in fact it's the card that defines mirror matches. I agree on Blood Moon (it's pretty good, but not mandatory) and also Mindbreak Trap; combo shouldn't win when you have a Leyline and a Sterling Grove, though, and decks like GW Zenith pack tons of enchantment removal; that's why I ended up running 2 Greater Auramancy in the sideboard, they should be useful against both matchups. You may also like to have a Worship somewhere, either main or sideboard, to complement Confinements and reach things that pass through Moat (it's another card that wins the mirror alone btw). I don't have much more to say right now.

[ForlornEgoist]

I posted this on Sal and feel the need to re-iterate;

Emrakul is 15 mana. He doesn't give you an extra turn. If you cast him, you spent your entire turn casting him. He's a one of, so you have no way of tutoring for him, which means you're probably only drawing him if the engine is running. If the engine is running, it takes about 12 mana to win with Words of War, 15 including casting it the same turn. It's tutorable with Sterling Grove and obviously has synergy with the rest of the deck.

There is no reason to run Emrakul in this deck. Ever.

I think its shortsighted to say that Emrakul has absolutely no purpose in the deck considering its one of the few cards that can pull you out of a deadlock in the mirror MU. Yeah, people like me run Aura of Silence in the SB but considering its provincial use I'm only running 2 of them. Even with 6 tutors I have no gurantee of getting this and even upon resolution I am still facing O-Rings from my opponent. Emrakul is a guranteed way to deal with this MU. I am not advocating Emrakul as a superior wincon to WoW/Sigil because truthfully hes subpar in comparison. The reason the other 2 are preferrable is that they find use earlier in the game whereas Emrakul can't be used earlier than 15 mana. Not to mention as you argued they can be tutored.
The "free turn," I argued was to say that it negates Karakas. I never implied that spending 15 mana didn't eat up our turn, I simply meant that it made their Karakas useless. A moot point, I know, but still just clarifying what I was implying when I said free turn.

Emrakul is far from optimal in the deck and would most likely be more useful as a Living Wish target (in which case he costs 17 mana) but if a card helps to improve a specific MU and is absolute jank in other MU's I will never go as far as to say the card has no place in the deck. I do think, however, that for the most part there are better choices in the long run.

Forlorn Egoist

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

In the mirror, wouldn't Martyr's Bond be better at 6 mana than Emrakul at 15?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Seems a lot narrower than Karmic Justice.

Either way, Aura of Silence is really the most powerful mirror-match card. You can't really call it narrow, when it has much wider application than the mirror-match; it can be crucial vs. any deck packing Deed, and against most other decks it at least serves as a more expensive Seal of Primordium. Against what other decks could Emrakul matter?

The mirror is also largely determined by who lands and sticks a Sanctum first, and without Sanctum, you're not casting this guy. So in that sense the argument about him in the mirror is pretty irrelevant.

[Digital Devil]

What could I say... Such a straightforward list is probably the best you could have started with. I like everything in there and I understand your reasons to include (or not) certain cards. I'd just cut 1 Elephant Grass for 1 Green Sun's Zenith, and probably change the Seals for 2 Auras of Silence; the double white shouldn't be a problem and they wreak even more havoc, in fact it's the card that defines mirror matches. I agree on Blood Moon (it's pretty good, but not mandatory) and also Mindbreak Trap; combo shouldn't win when you have a Leyline and a Sterling Grove, though, and decks like GW Zenith pack tons of enchantment removal; that's why I ended up running 2 Greater Auramancy in the sideboard, they should be useful against both matchups. You may also like to have a Worship somewhere, either main or sideboard, to complement Confinements and reach things that pass through Moat (it's another card that wins the mirror alone btw). I don't have much more to say right now.
Seeing I'm playing Taiga just for WoW, wouldn't a GW build be much more stable? Something like -2x Savannah, -1x Taiga, -1x Words of War, +2x Forest, +1x Plains, +1 Aura of Silence?

P.S. - I'm lowering the level of this thread - sorry.

[Nonex]

Two colors are more stable than three, but note that Words of War accomplishes two different tasks: allowing you to stop your own enchantresses from decking you, and being a win condition. That's why most people splash red, even when green and white have their own Words and other ways to prevent decking yourself, like Abundance or Pursuit of Knowledge. That single Taiga (or Plateau) is there just to not depend on Utopia Sprawl to get red mana. Since it's just 1 land for 1 card and there are other possible mana sources, keeping this splash or not is a matter of personal tastes rather than stability.

Btw, while 2 Savannah are okay, it's also okay if you want to run less duals; but keep at least 1 Savannah, you may need it anytime. If you decide to change something like this in your mana base, you should add more green fetchlands, since 11 basics are enough.

[Mr. Froggy]

I play Enchantress, and was wondering what were the pros and cons of both the G/W and G/W/r builds?

[Digital Devil]

Two colors are more stable than three, but note that Words of War accomplishes two different tasks: allowing you to stop your own enchantresses from decking you, and being a win condition. That's why most people splash red, even when green and white have their own Words and other ways to prevent decking yourself, like Abundance or Pursuit of Knowledge. That single Taiga (or Plateau) is there just to not depend on Utopia Sprawl to get red mana. Since it's just 1 land for 1 card and there are other possible mana sources, keeping this splash or not is a matter of personal tastes rather than stability.

Btw, while 2 Savannah are okay, it's also okay if you want to run less duals; but keep at least 1 Savannah, you may need it anytime. If you decide to change something like this in your mana base, you should add more green fetchlands, since 11 basics are enough.
Nice point. The fact is, I'm never playing more than 3 draw effects at once (2 is the number I like to have, 3 is my personal limit) since I don't want to be decked, and I don't want to discard too much cards at EOT, wasting precious resources. As the term "wasting" makes me think about Wasteland, the only time I needed Savannah was because I had an untapped Forest, Utopia Sprawl, Windswept Heath and Runed Halo, and desperately needed to play the Halo. Since I'm not playing Halo anymore, the closest situation which comes to mind has Sterling Grove in RH's place: Wild Growth on a Plains or Utopia Sprawl on a Forest is just as good, though. I might try the +2x Misty Rainforest/+1x Flooded Strand thing - let's see how it will work. Thanks for the suggestions =)

[ESG]

@ Digital Devil: One huge benefit to running Words of War is that you don't need to attack to win. I have tried lists without Words of War, but I've found them to always be less successful for me.

@ Emrakul discussion: I've generally been pretty happy with it, but I'm running a much different build now than the accepted one, so I can power it out without Serra's Sanctum. The fact that Emrakul does several things at once is a plus: It's a win condition that gives you an out to Painter-Grindstone (at least in Game 1); it can kill an opposing Emrakul or trump creatures brought in by an opposing Show and Tell; it's an uncounterable way to take another turn; it's a way to reshuffle your yard when things go wrong. Sometimes it's a faster kill than Sigil, and I've found it to be harder for the opponent to stop than Sigil. I can't tell you how many times I've made a bunch of angels only to see them all killed by an EE or a Maelstrom Pulse or a Wrath or an Echoing Truth or a Deed or something else. (I still ended up winning most of those games, but the loss of time and the chunk it takes out of the library are both dangerous things.) To be clear, I don't believe Emrakul is better than any of the standard win cons; it simply offers different advantages and has different limitations. I tried it, and it works well in my deck, so I'm going to continue to run with it as a singleton.

[honz]

i like the idea of emrakul mainly because it shuffles back into your library. A smart landstill player only has to counter your 2 wincons, and your 2-3 replenishes, and you will lose. With emrakul, this is no longer a problem. Additionally, emrakul could form a hard lock with solitary confinement, provided some things go right (sacrificing your groves in a loop with enough enchantress effects on the board, until your grave/library = # of enchantress effects). Additionally, ignoring grindstone is always fun, as is playing it with an opposing show and tell.

The only problem is that by the time you can cast him, you already have control of the board, which makes it seem like a winmore. Sigil, on the other hand, just wins games if it sticks. Even without enchantress, you can pretty much drop a 4/4 flyer every turn, which is more than most decks can handle. Ill be playing emrak at an upcoming tournament, and will see what i think...

[ForlornEgoist]

I play Enchantress, and was wondering what were the pros and cons of both the G/W and G/W/r builds?

Literally the only 2 cards that we actually splash red for are Words of War/Blood Moon (and the ocassional Vexing Shusher which is moot since it can be cast off green as well) with exception to those random old schoolers running Seal of Fire/Form of the Dragon. :tongue:

Honestly there is no con to doing that incredibly light splash of red for WoW/Moon as you don't even really need to run fetches/duals to make the splash work (albeit its more functional to do so but you can just rely on Utopia Sprawl). WoW can become early burn if necessary or a 1-2 turn wincon depending on the mana currently being rendered from Sanctum.
I'm currently running Moon in my build although most Enchantress's don't as they prefer not to negate their own Sanctums. However Moon, although shutting off our Sanctum, doesn't necessarily hurt us that bad due to the high basic count (yes, we do run duals/fetches but honestly they're there more for thinning which is relevant to us). At the same time Moon can just be randomly good against so many decks that we can have problems with (Rock, Landstill, Bant, etc.). So many players move to the conclusion that if a deck has more than 1 basic nonbasic hate such as Moon is suddenly far less useful but the fact of the matter is that the opponent still need to tutor up said basics and even just shutting them off of multiple instances of 1 color in a turn can be backbreaking.

Really there isn't a weakness to the GW build as opposed to GWr because, unlike most decks, this deck basically is GW that runs 1 red card without altering the deck style in any major way, shape, or form. If you're against running red you can just as easily do other shennanigans such as doubling up your Sigil of the Empty Throne (which I wouldn't suggest due to Extirpate/Meddling Mage) or just replace it with Luminarch Ascension/Emrakul, the Aeons Torn/Sacred Mesa/Dovescape/Hoofprints of the Stag or any other wincons I currently have forgotten. As for Moon replacement, I've been testing Primal Order.

Forlorn Egoist

[Mr. Froggy]

Ah, I see what you mean. As for win-cons, WoW is it a must? I use Sigil and Sacred Mesa, should I add red for it?

[ForlornEgoist]

You can certainly make do with any of the other wincons I posted (or failed to post) but of those listed WoW is probably the best option because, assuming your opponent has cracked fetches 2-4 times, at most you'll need to invest 8-9 mana into WoW to win in 1-2 turns. Looking at the other wincons listed, Emrakul requires 15 mana with no early game utility or way to tutor him up; Luminarch requires 4 turns of not taking damage which isn't always possible early game; Mesa/Hoofprint require far heavier investment (Mesa requires 12 mana including upkeep just to keep 5 tokens for attacking/Hoofprints requires 15 mana + 20 card draws for those 5 activations if you want to win next turn); Dovescape is a little bit more reasonable as it doubles as a defensive spell and can still provide us with a 1-2 turn win but it still lacks that early utility sometimes needed for early aggro (albeit WoW is typically a last resort).

I'm not going to tell you that your required to make a red splash if you want to play this deck but of all these wincons I do think WoW is optimal (although you could also opt to go with Words of Wilding if you wanted to have early utility without a Red splash although I personally prefer burn). Of course, I can also see the benefits of Mesa as 2 mana provides a chump blockers which would hurt us far less early game than sacrificing draws to activate the Words.

Forlorn Egoist

[Zach Tartell]

Hey - I'm working on re-writing the opening post (since, y'know, it's like three years old or whatever).

Demands before I do so:

1. Convince me that that 6 mana enchantment from the commander decks is good at all.
2. Somebody who knows anything about magic websites find me a way to look up enchantress placings (ever since deckcheck left I've been in the dark).
3. I guess I only had two demands?

[thommoi]

Hey guys,
I' ve been following the thread for a while now and since GP Amsterdam is slowly approaching (and Enchantress is my main contender right now) I thought it to be smart to join your conversation.
First things first, the list I'm currently tinkering with (which is pretty standard, I think):

3 Plains
7 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
1 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Sterling Grove
1 Words of War

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Replenish
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Moat
1 Karmic Justice
1 Runed Halo
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

SB:
1 Aura of Silence
1 Humility
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Blood Moon
2 Null Rod
1 City of Solitude
1 Choke
1 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Emrakul, the Eons Torn


A few thoughts on the list:
I really like the one GSZ main, for it helps to find and (especially vs. countermagic) overload the opponent on enchantress effects, if necessary. Plus the Shusher in the SB caught some opponents by surprise.
Karmic Justice is kind a the flex slot but the thing I'm most afraid of (preboard) is Deed and such.
Mirri's Guile is nice and all but I am not totally sold on it (but it also helps finding enchantress effects, if need be).
The rest of the mainboard seems pretty straightforward.
The Sideboard is kind of loose, but I like to have an answer to every threat (except for Iona, I guess^^). It needs a lot of work, though, since I find myself more than often in a spot where I am uncertain of what to board against opponents playing counters (there's just too much stuff to bring in).
Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated. :D

Anyway, I have some questions regarding the deck in general:

1. Why do you think that Lands.dec is a positive MU? I tested with a buddy and he kind of crushed me pretty hard. The EE-Academy-lock plus porting and wastelanding my precious manasources was a neckbreaker. What was I doing wrong? (Blood Moon and City of Solitude are in the board for this MU, but we did not jet find the time to test postboard)

2. Do you think that a single Exploration might be worth the stretch? I really like to play a lot of 1 drop enchantments and acceleration since it gives you the best opportunities to do the right things/draw the right cards. Plus it helps in the combo turn if you find the Sanctum very late. On the other hand it seems, that it is only useful when the engine is online (since I sometimes miss land drops anyway, if it's not)...

3. For better test results, I would like to know what lines of play you fear the most form people playing blue.
E.g. what is a must counter for a merfolk player? We had a vivid discussion, whether it is the acceleration (slows us down), the draw engine (outdraws them, if not handled) or the wincons/lockpieces (we/they can't win, obv^^). What do you guys think? Same question for the control MUs. Someone above said, that a smart control player "only" has to counter the wincons (if we do not play Emrakul) and the replenishes. Is that consensus?

Okay, that is plenty (and there are more questions -but this shall do for the moment).
Thanks in andvance.
Regards,
thommoi. :D

[jiazhouhuaqiao]

Seems a lot narrower than Karmic Justice.

Either way, Aura of Silence is really the most powerful mirror-match card. You can't really call it narrow, when it has much wider application than the mirror-match; it can be crucial vs. any deck packing Deed, and against most other decks it at least serves as a more expensive Seal of Primordium. Against what other decks could Emrakul matter?

The mirror is also largely determined by who lands and sticks a Sanctum first, and without Sanctum, you're not casting this guy. So in that sense the argument about him in the mirror is pretty irrelevant.

Karmic Justice and Martyr's Bond are worded differently. Martyr's Bond can be used proactively. Lotus Petals are now Shatters and your Gaea's Touches and Sterling Groves now peel off opposing enchantments through THEIR Sterling Groves.

[anonymos]

Hey - I'm working on re-writing the opening post (since, y'know, it's like three years old or whatever).

Demands before I do so:

1. Convince me that that 6 mana enchantment from the commander decks is good at all.
2. Somebody who knows anything about magic websites find me a way to look up enchantress placings (ever since deckcheck left I've been in the dark).
3. I guess I only had two demands?

What enchantment are you talking about?
The only place I can think of is to check out star city's listings. Beyond that I have no idea. Good call on holding the first page hostage though.

[anonymos]

Hey - I'm working on re-writing the opening post (since, y'know, it's like three years old or whatever).

Demands before I do so:

1. Convince me that that 6 mana enchantment from the commander decks is good at all.
2. Somebody who knows anything about magic websites find me a way to look up enchantress placings (ever since deckcheck left I've been in the dark).
3. I guess I only had two demands?

What enchantment are you talking about?
The only place I can think of is to check out star city's listings. Beyond that I have no idea. Good call on holding the first page hostage though.

[Irenicus]

2. Somebody who knows anything about magic websites find me a way to look up enchantress placings (ever since deckcheck left I've been in the dark).

Try TC Decks (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/index.php). Imo it is the best successor of deckcheck.

[Fjedsen]

Yep TC Decks is awesome.

I also recommend theese: Deckcheck.de (http://www.deckcheck.de/) and Morphling.de (http://www.morphling.de/)

[overseer1234]

1. Why do you think that Lands.dec is a positive MU? I tested with a buddy and he kind of crushed me pretty hard. The EE-Academy-lock plus porting and wastelanding my precious manasources was a neckbreaker. What was I doing wrong? (Blood Moon and City of Solitude are in the board for this MU, but we did not jet find the time to test postboard)

Well, Blood Moon will definitely make up for a lot (however I don't realy see the use for city of solitude as that's more for the "counter controll" matchups.), but I play main deck Ground Seal and Karmic justice so if they blow things up it only works one and it also costs them a lot of board. And the ground seal shuts off the recurring.

Also, if they deed the board (or are going to) you just have to make sure you have a karmic justice out and/or a replenish in hand and you're alls back in the game.

Just my 2 cents.

[Mr. Froggy]

I've been wanting to add the NO-Pro package in my sb, but would that dilute the deck too much? I mean, if you pull it off, the opponent would be quite surprised.

[Nonex]

Surprising the opponent should never be a reason to include anything in any deck. Winning against decks you can't normally beat is another story, but I don't think this is the case. Enchantress loses against storm combo and NO-Prog is too slow to keep up with that.

[The Spanish Tunnel King]

Hey guys,
I' ve been following the thread for a while now and since GP Amsterdam is slowly approaching (and Enchantress is my main contender right now) I thought it to be smart to join your conversation.
First things first, the list I'm currently tinkering with (which is pretty standard, I think):

3 Plains
7 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
1 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Sterling Grove
1 Words of War

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Replenish
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Moat
1 Karmic Justice
1 Runed Halo
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

SB:
1 Aura of Silence
1 Humility
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Blood Moon
2 Null Rod
1 City of Solitude
1 Choke
1 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Emrakul, the Eons Torn


A few thoughts on the list:
I really like the one GSZ main, for it helps to find and (especially vs. countermagic) overload the opponent on enchantress effects, if necessary. Plus the Shusher in the SB caught some opponents by surprise.
Karmic Justice is kind a the flex slot but the thing I'm most afraid of (preboard) is Deed and such.
Mirri's Guile is nice and all but I am not totally sold on it (but it also helps finding enchantress effects, if need be).
The rest of the mainboard seems pretty straightforward.
The Sideboard is kind of loose, but I like to have an answer to every threat (except for Iona, I guess^^). It needs a lot of work, though, since I find myself more than often in a spot where I am uncertain of what to board against opponents playing counters (there's just too much stuff to bring in).
Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated. :D

Anyway, I have some questions regarding the deck in general:

1. Why do you think that Lands.dec is a positive MU? I tested with a buddy and he kind of crushed me pretty hard. The EE-Academy-lock plus porting and wastelanding my precious manasources was a neckbreaker. What was I doing wrong? (Blood Moon and City of Solitude are in the board for this MU, but we did not jet find the time to test postboard)

2. Do you think that a single Exploration might be worth the stretch? I really like to play a lot of 1 drop enchantments and acceleration since it gives you the best opportunities to do the right things/draw the right cards. Plus it helps in the combo turn if you find the Sanctum very late. On the other hand it seems, that it is only useful when the engine is online (since I sometimes miss land drops anyway, if it's not)...

3. For better test results, I would like to know what lines of play you fear the most form people playing blue.
E.g. what is a must counter for a merfolk player? We had a vivid discussion, whether it is the acceleration (slows us down), the draw engine (outdraws them, if not handled) or the wincons/lockpieces (we/they can't win, obv^^). What do you guys think? Same question for the control MUs. Someone above said, that a smart control player "only" has to counter the wincons (if we do not play Emrakul) and the replenishes. Is that consensus?

Okay, that is plenty (and there are more questions -but this shall do for the moment).
Thanks in andvance.
Regards,
thommoi. :D

Hey man. Good to have you on board the enchantress train :). After playing a couple of local tourneys, it seems like enchantress could well be a player again with the meta the way it is at the moment (and i'm gearing up for Amsterdam too). Soooo heres some thoughts on your deck from me...

I've not tried GSZ out at all, but I guess its ok. It's rare that I wish I had more enchantress effects (unless a landstill player had the dreaded 4-5 counter hand :)). Mirri's guile is really good, but if thats the plan, maybe up the fetches to.... 6ish? I ran it for a bit and it was really good at cutting mulligans down (although I don't really agree to the mull any hand with no enchantress effect in :)). In my mind, mirri's guile and enlightened tutour are the same 'slot' in the deck, so maybe pick one and run with it instead of the split? I didn't really like E.tutour vs. blue.dec due to tempo and card loss, so of the two, i'd pick guile. Or maybe just add more bombs :).

Again, personally, i've had a lot of joy with 3 wincons and 2 solitaries main. 2 wincons seems good, but gives people who play P.deeds, etc just a little bit too long to find it, I think. And the 3rd solitary would probably be a 3 mana fog a little too often for me. I would move it to the side vs. aggro and combo.

I'd try to find room for 2 cities of solitude main. It's honestly never dead, and is a bomb against anything blue...

So my thoughts on your questions....

1. Bringing in graveyard hate really helps here. The wheel of sun and moon is good, as well as ground seal (as academy ruins targets...). Also making yourself untargetable to stop a mindslaver lock (if they are a bit oldschool). Bringing in another karmic justice from the board probably would help here too. 2 is good against recurring sweepers. Just remember to take out their crucible of worlds first :).

2. Probably not. Its a shame because I REALLY love that card. It was my favourite when I played aggro enchantress in urzas/tempest standard :))). Sadly now its probably not good. Just don't play land out unless you need to play around daze/spell pierce in case you draw the sanctum mid 'combo'. Setting up the lock and then passing the turn isn't the worst usually. Then untap play the sanctum and then draw your library like a boss :).

3. I've had a LOT of games against fish and landstill. I think both match-ups are in our favour. The games they win are where they counter the draw engine, or the card advantage we get will wreck them. Replenish is a monster here, as is city of solitude. And remember that choke and elephant grass is a soft lock against them :). Mental missteping wild growth et al probably buys fish a turn, and makes daze harder to play around though. If all else fails, try to exhaust their counters and then resolve the moat and rebuild. If they don't have a clock, play around daze/spell pierce. There are still only 4 hard counters that we really need to worry about (FoW) so replenish is the nuts. I would board another one in if you can find the space.

I hope thats been helpful, and keep the questions coming. It's always good to discuss where the deck should go :). Are you going to make me put a helix pinnacle in my board for Amsterdam? :)

The Spanish Tunnel King

[Fjedsen]

I played vs Landstill yesterday and went 2-1 preboard and 2-0 postboard.

I lost the one game preboard because he had Mental Misstep, Spellsnare, Brainstorm, FoW, Jace and Lands. He curved perfect and countered all threats.

Postboard was a) playing everything I got and let him counter it. Then gogogo Replenish or b) get Enchantress effect, get shusher, play City of Solitude and Sterling Grove.

Conclusion: Mass counter hand = Loss, Everything besides = Win

[dontbiteitholmes]

Hey - I'm working on re-writing the opening post (since, y'know, it's like three years old or whatever).

Demands before I do so:

1. Convince me that that 6 mana enchantment from the commander decks is good at all.
2. Somebody who knows anything about magic websites find me a way to look up enchantress placings (ever since deckcheck left I've been in the dark).
3. I guess I only had two demands?

1) This?
http://d28yjzray7dvaa.cloudfront.net/mtg-cards/mtg-commander/martyrs-bond.jpg

No it's not good. By the time you hit 6 mana there are plenty of better options.

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Martyr's Bond.

At best its a mirror MU card, but the card still reads "put into GY from the battlefield," of which I scarcely think of any card that either us or the opponent has that would do this rather than RFG it. Aura of Silence, possibly, but beyond that I don't see this as boosting the Mirror at all.

Forlorn Egoist

[ForlornEgoist]

So, as my metas become more and more aggro-heavy with mixes of control *shakes fist at Mental Misstep* I've been looking at how best to modify my deck to be better suited against aggro, in particular the dreaded Gobs/Merfolk. As I stated in a previous post until recently I was running Living Wish and have since modified it to a more standard list. This is a list which I am currently testing in the hopes of making it better suited for aggro:


4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
5 Forest
3 Plains

2 Replenish
2 Enlightened Tutor

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia's Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Sterling Grove
4 Journey to Nowhere
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

1 Solitary Confinement
2 City of Solitude
2 Aura of Silence
3 Choke
3 Null Rod
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Note that in this list I'm running 4/4 of Journey to Nowhere/Oblivion Ring. This maximizes my ability for targeted removal, as well enabling me to remove early threats and a greater ability to punch through Merfolk's counters. Thus far I've liked the utility of JtN/O-Ring together, however running a 4/4 split or any variation thereof is definitely a meta-based decision. If I were to take this to a higher tourney I went definitely opt for a more traditional Enchantress shell (ie. more SC/silver bullets likes Karmic Justice and Ground Seal).

To help compensate for this I've reduced Solitary Confinement from 3 to 2 MD so as to balance out my targeted removal. I didn't want to remove the 3rd from the 75 as I felt that in certain MU's it was much more reliable so I kept it in SB. I figured 6 tutors was enough to justify only 2 MD. That having been said, although I'm not worried about enchantment hate MD G1 against nearly my entire meta I know that since there are at least 1-2 other Enchantress's that many decks SB hate so I'm reluctant to lose Karmic Justice and Blood Moon for certain MU's. What I may consider is:
-1 Elephant Grass -1 Choke
+1 Blood Moon +1 Karmic Justice
Being the prominent Dragon Stompy player that I am, Moon can just completely wreck so many decks days. Like I said in the previous paragraph, I don't seem KJ as MD material in my meta so I feel its more deserving of a SB slot.

Something I may look into is removing WoW and doubling up on Sigil of the Empty Throne. There is a rather prominent lack of annoyances such as Extirpate and Meddling Mage and as I most often wish I had Sigil over WoW it may be a sound decision. Although, that having been said I was recently able to trade for a foil Words of Wind so I may decide to temporarily be old school and throw in a Cloud of Faeries and Stroke of Genius. :D

Anyway, so, yeah. Just thought I'd post this random deck revelation I had for the deck (or at least my build).

Forlorn Egoist

[Just me]

If it's beatdown decks that worry you, I recommend Ghostly Prison. Also sweet vs Merfolk together with Choke. I would prefer these above Journey to Nowhere. You can shut down multiple creatures with 1 card this way.

If the decks use a lot of activated abilities (Vial, Coralhelm Commander,...) you might want to look at the card that increases their use with 2 mana (I think it's Supression Field).

[anonymos]

I'm currently reworking my deck. I haven't done any big overhauls to it beyond adding GSZ since Mystical Tutor got banned. I think the metagame has shifted enough since then to justify giving it a good shake since there are plenty of viable cards for the deck as a whole.

A couple things I'm testing...Chrome Mox, No Sigil in the deck at all, Dovescape in the board with Shusher, upping the O. Ring count, lowering my solitary count, cutting an E. Grass, finding space for Ground Seal main... My list should probably have other things on it as well, but I figure that's a big enough list to show how big my overhaul looks to be. BTW - I'm moving Mesa back to main as the 2nd win con if over sigil for testing.

Oh yeah, trying Gaddock Teeg in the board as well. That is why I moved Sigil out.

[Shax]

Reports for tourneys where Enchantress has possibly placed would be found on Morphling.de

[dontbiteitholmes]

I'm currently reworking my deck. I haven't done any big overhauls to it beyond adding GSZ since Mystical Tutor got banned. I think the metagame has shifted enough since then to justify giving it a good shake since there are plenty of viable cards for the deck as a whole.

A couple things I'm testing...Chrome Mox, No Sigil in the deck at all, Dovescape in the board with Shusher, upping the O. Ring count, lowering my solitary count, cutting an E. Grass, finding space for Ground Seal main... My list should probably have other things on it as well, but I figure that's a big enough list to show how big my overhaul looks to be. BTW - I'm moving Mesa back to main as the 2nd win con if over sigil for testing.

Oh yeah, trying Gaddock Teeg in the board as well. That is why I moved Sigil out.

I've been messing around with this deck after putting it down for 6 months, my early testing leads me to many of the same conclusions I had last year.

Chrome Mox is cool but it cuts into enchantment count, it's really a toss up. You go off about 1/2 a turn quicker when you ramp into Moxes on that big turn but getting 2 Moxes in your first ten cards is like getting Hymned by your deck most of the time. I think I'm gonna stick without for now.

I don't see Ground Seal main. What problem deck is this addressing? I've seen GY strats on the decline lately but maybe that's just me. I still think this can be dealt with in SB best.

Dovescape + Shusher = <3. Totally owns many slow matchups and both are cards that probably belong in the deck anyways. Tested GSZ did not like it, your mileage may vary but I would have always rather dropped a Guile. On a related note I'll still never play this deck with less than 3 Guiles again, what a bomb.

I still like Blood Moon main, I mean there are a handful of decks it just locks down and sometimes you can just completely catch people with their pants down.

Sigil is crucial, why would you cut it for Teegs in the board? I've had many games where I never drew a card off an Enchantress and still won because I ramped up quick my Enchantress's got countered, I stuck a Sigil and hit the ground running with some 4/4's.

I'm all for cutting an E.Grass I'm down to 3, but I'm seriously considering putting it back to 4, there have never been more black creatures running around and Hexmage Depths is making a comeback not to mention about 3 flavors of deck to beat of the month run Progen.

I like Choke MD still as well. So many blue decks running around and no MD answers for a resolved Choke for many of them. Makes Grass much more relevant as well and since we are seeing less and less Daze... (well maybe more now that Hive Mind is coming back).

On a related note to Hive Mind I think Leyline is past its prime. I never really liked it but strongly considered running it for a second there at the end. I think the 3-4x tutor board is the way to go and a good candidate for Enlightened target of the month goes to Sundial of the Infinite. With 3x tutors (what I run) it gives you 4x shots at dropping one turn 2, then barring Force of Will once it hits play they have no answers usually. So then their only wincon is S/T for Emrakul which we should have 2/3 O Rings and a Karakas for post board all of which are uncounterable when dropped off a Show. Then of course you still have a couple extra slots for tutor targets for GY decks, Karmic Justice, and whatever else is a problem recently. The other option is 4x Angel's Grace but then you are completely throwing your SB at one deck which seems like a bad idea.

[anonymos]

On a related note to Hive Mind I think Leyline is past its prime. I never really liked it but strongly considered running it for a second there at the end. I think the 3-4x tutor board is the way to go and a good candidate for Enlightened target of the month goes to Sundial of the Infinite. With 3x tutors (what I run) it gives you 4x shots at dropping one turn 2, then barring Force of Will once it hits play they have no answers usually. So then their only wincon is S/T for Emrakul which we should have 2/3 O Rings and a Karakas for post board all of which are uncounterable when dropped off a Show. Then of course you still have a couple extra slots for tutor targets for GY decks, Karmic Justice, and whatever else is a problem recently. The other option is 4x Angel's Grace but then you are completely throwing your SB at one deck which seems like a bad idea.

I've been playing a bit online lately with enchantress. None of the big dailies and such, just the 2 man ques. With Hive Mind I've been finding that if I don't get a sanctum early I lose to pact. If I do get it, then I'm golden. I'll grab a red source and sit pretty. I have a feeling I'm going to have to work out a better plan or else just look at it like the storm matchup. One of the two...

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Ground Seal main is only collaterally about the GY hate. Ground Seal's ability to dig is one of the most consistently under-rated aspects of the deck-type by most Enchantress players.

I've been testing a lot of consistency issues and have found that between going to 19 non-Sanctum lands + 3 ESG/Mox and running 4 GSZ my mulligan rate has dropped dramatically. Of 60 goldfished games, only 2 required mulliganing below 6, assuming that any hand without a turn 2 Enchantress/Sylvan Library needed to be mulled. Exceptions for having multiple turn 3 enchantresses and ways to slow the opponent down (Grass mainly)

I don't see why you would ever run less than 4 Elephant Grass. I wish I could run 8.

Also, testing indicates that Gaddock might get cut. He fucks up your GSZ, which is big.

[MVC]

Since Enchantress is my pet deck, and I've been working on a new variant I decided I would join into the discussion. So since my metagame is filled with control decks I was looking for a way to make the deck more resillient to the avalanche of counters they can put on you in the early game. It struck me that Enchantress wants to be the control deck in most if not all of our matchups and to be able to deal with decks that are going to counter you you would need to resolve any form of enchantress effect OR any other way to gain card advantage. To achieve this I decided I was going to try and make a G/W/U list. This is what I am supposing:


4 Presence
4 Enchantress

4 Energy Field/Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
2 Back to Basics
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Moat
1 Words of Wind

4 Brainstorm
2 Replenish
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Living Wish
// (flexslot, right now wishes for shusher, teeg, sanctum, emrakul and possibly maze of ith from the sideboard)

3 Wild Growth
2 Utopia Sprawl

1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Dovescape

1 Sanctum
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Forest
3 Plains
2 Island


Sideboard:

Wishboard:


1x Emrakul
1x Serra's Sanctum
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Gaddock Teeg

4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Null Rod
1x City of Solitude
1x Replenish
1x Karmic Justice


To accomodate Brainstorm & Back to Basics I needed more shuffle effects and more basic lands. Luckily, this synergizes pretty well by simply upping our fetchland count to 8. Combined with 2 Enlightened Tutors and 4 Sterling Groves this gives us 14 shuffle effects. Having Brainstorm drastically improves both our transition into mid and lategame aswell as our opening hands.

Playing Blue also gives us acces to Energy Field and Standstill. I quickly dumped Standstill as a viable option, since we don't actually draw into reactive cards it's not nearly as good, but Energy Field is a very viable card. However, it combines badly with the amount of shuffle effects in the deck, and as such I'm still leaning towards Elephant Grass over Energy Field. I tried a list without Back to Basics and with Energy Field, but due to the increase of duals it didn't get any more resilient as it's easily killed using Wasteland, with no way to restore any sort of protection on instant speed. The only decks where it's actually better then Elephant Grass is most Zoo variants. I'm still considering a 3 to 1 split, but it seems hardly worth it.

You win the game by resolving a Words of Wind and locking the game with Dovescape and Shusher, or make a buttload of Angels with a resolved Sigil.

Sideboard seems obvious. Leyline vs Combo, which still sees regular play here in the Netherlands. I also really enjoy having 4 possible Enlightened tutors mainboard allowing alot of turn 1 tutor into turn 2 Null Rod, Wheel of Sun and Moon or later Karmic Justice and City of Solitude. Most of it should be relatively obvious.

[ForlornEgoist]

Decklist

Energy Field: Um, why? Sure, I can see it as a decent stall for early aggro, but in a control meta you're not going to automatically have an out to their counters T1+. Chances are a card will get countered thus EF dies. Not to mention the fact that control decks rarely ever have game plans to win in in the early stages of the game (T4-7) where Enchantress suffers most. Contrary to the semi-combo style of our deck we are at our core a control deck. Sure, you could argue that it if you don't attempt to cast anything it could stall for X turns until you reach a discard phase. Great, but in that time, assuming they don't already have a solid win-con, they've most likely had sufficient time to draw into more counters or some form of removal for a resolved spell. The point being that EF is a subpar choice IMO for a control meta, particularly since it has enormous diminishing returns against control decks where we're constantly trying to resolve spells.

Back to Basics is a meta card so I won't argue this point too hard. However assuming your meta is more U-oriented control I would say MDing 2 City of Solitude would serve you better as opposed to SBing them. CoS once resolved auto-negates all counters until it is has been answered. This, to me, seems like it would be much better for you. It also wouldn't hurt to have Choke in the SB. BtB is great for its utility, but decks that Choke couldn't hurt (Zoo/Rock) are either already good (or horrible) MU's and I honestly wouldn't find myself desiring BtB to improve such MU's. Also don't forget that decks like Landstill or Ux-Control have numerous basics they can tutor up to respond to BtB. Remember that decks such as these often require only 1-2 basics to function in a decent capacity whereas Choke essentially locks down their entire manabase.

Runed Halo is a fair call as it can answer combo (to an extent) as well as various creatures and the dreaded Jace 2.0 but I, personally, would prefer O-Ring as it has a little extra utility for what it can answer.

I don't agree with Brainstorm. Yes, its an amazing cantrip, but just because you splash blue doesn't mean you should run it. Unlike other decks running/splashing blue we can rely on Sylvan Library/Mirri's Guile that will not only fullfill the same function but do it better by upping the enchantment count as well as staying on green, the dominant color in our deck. Heck, you could even argue Ground Seal as it provides a useful utility while also replacing itself with a draw.

@ Living Wish: Not really ideal for your build of the deck. Firstly, running only 1, although reducing the risk of a somewhat dead draw, means that a) if the Wish gets countered/discarded you now have no way to obtain said Wish targets, and b) You're far less likely to draw into the 1-of Wish when required, even with our 8 Enchantress's. This is just the problem with Wish itself. Lets look at the Wish targets you've chosen:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Maze of Ith
Okay, so, a somewhat standard list for Living Wish (at least, in this deck).
@ Emrakul: Emrakul is win-more in a good majority of MU's. Against Mirror/S&T/long-game control he can find great use for us but considering your deck list hes far from ideal. Even builds such as mine running 4/4 Growth/Sprawl and 2 Sanctum have a difficult time trying to cast Emrakul, which I can imagine is even higher for your deck with a 3/2 split and only 1 MD Sanctum. True, you've got 1 in the board but if the Wish target is Emrakul you now have no way to retrieve that Sanctum. And let us not forget that if your opponent can answer that 1-of Sanctum you now have no way to cast Emrakul as Sanctum is considered our "cheat," for him. Even in an ideal board position a majority of the time by the time you can cast him you could just as easily win with any other wincon available to us. Its a rather rare situation for this deck where you absolutely require Emrakul to win.
@ Teeg: This is a fair Wish-target that provides a valuable utility, so I don't really have anything negative to say about him.
@ Shusher: Similar to Teeg.
@ Sanctum: Anyone, including myself, who has or is currently running a Wish list always picks to run a 1-of Sanctum in the SB, but you still IMO require that 2nd Sanctum in the main to complement the Wish Sanctum. Just because you can Wish for a Sanctum doesn't mean you can flippantly take out Sanctum and assume the Wish replaces a MD Sanctum because the truth is, it doesn't. MD Sanctum's can't be countered and can only be answered with nonbasic hate such as Wasteland or Moon. A SB Sanctum requires the opponent to use 1 of the 10-12+ counters on the Wish to negate it (which, as someone who was running 3-4 Wishes trust me, a counter on a Wish for us happens more often than you would think).
@ Maze of Ith: I can understand the use of this for answering their KotR or other such x/x creatures but what does MoI provide that would be better-suited by hate thats more universal such as upping the O-Ring count? In a more Aggro meta, sure, I could somewhat see a use for Maze>O-Ring, but in a control/combo meta O-Ring answers more threats that could hurt us, esp. opposing Emrakuls.

Ultimatly the purpose of Wish boards is to provide a toolbox with which to answer and threat (such as Belcher/Aggro Loam with Burning Wish) or to provide more instances of cards desired/evasion (such as Spring Tide(or whichever variant) with Cunning Wish). In the case of answering threats, our deck is designed to have universal utility against any deck. When looking at cards that give us issue, what card would you use to answer that couldn't be replaced by an enchantment which would also benefit from the 5-6 MD Enchantment tutors as well as enable Enchantress triggers?
In the cast of providing extra instances of cards, really the only card I would want to see more of is Sanctum which still necessitates you have 2 MD.

Living Wish is cute, but IMO suboptimal for this deck. Now, like I said before creatures such as Teeg/Shusher still provide very valuable utilities that can't necessarily be replaced with Enchantments so you may want to consider testing GSZ which not only fetches toolbox answers but provides extra instances of Enchantress.

@ Manabase
2 Islands seems excessive, esp. since the blue for this deck is intended as a splash, not the magical 3rd color. I am also warry at the 1-of Sanctum which, if destroyed, suddenly slows down your tempo amazingly with the only extra instance being a Wish target. If I had to alter your manabase, here is what I would do:
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
5 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
I would personally opt not to run a basic island period (rather upping the Forest count) but thats a personal preference most people would prefer to avoid. I also removed 2 Misty Rainforest in place of 2 Flooded Strand as this enables a tutor of both duals as well as giving access to White which I've found in my build to be often times necessary over green.

I'm also incredibly reluctant to reduce the count of Utopia Sprawl, esp. in this build. Albeit the "Forest only," rule sucks but it provides us with whichever color we need fixed for a mere G investment and, esp. in your blue-heavy build, I wouldn't suggest reducing them. I would prefer to keep the counts at 4/4 or 3/3 but you could just as easily do something like 2/4 of Growth/Sprawl.

Well, thats the bulk of what I have to say about your decklist. Sorry if I seem to get overly critical, but I'm just trying to be constructive. The meta in America is obviously going to be different from the Netherlands, so your average MU's are most likely going to be different so I'm sure some of your card choices have relevance.

Something I would like you to playtest is the old-school semi-combo GWu builds that ran Cloud of Faeries and Stroke of Genius as a win-con (which you could even consider running as part of your Wish list). I'm sure this won't work out, but its just a little hobby of mine to go back to the Enchantress roots from time to time. :D

Forlorn Egoist

[MVC]

Allright, as for Energy Field, I fully agree with you, as I stated above already I wasn't convinced about it, and indeed it's not even great in a control matchup so I'm not running it at this moment. I just mentioned it to show that I considered it and that there might be a possibility for it to work out.

With BtB, I party agree. It's true that most UW(x)/landstill lists can easily play around them, however it also shuts down their manland, and combined with Elephant grass if they're not running Swords or Thopter Combo, they usually only have Jace 2.0 as a viable wincon, with Batterskull being a hassle, but due to the fact that the germ token is black less of a clock then it usually is. The thing I love about BtB is that it can also shut down, for example, Zoo, The Rock & B/W Discard's manabase and really put you in a more controlling position against most of the decks in the meta nowadays.

I did have City of Solitude mainboard, and it is in fact a great card if resolved, however it is too often that I found myself struggling to finally resolve a city that I nearly sacrificed my whole hand to take their counters, and against Landstill lists it was usually even harder. This is also where Brainstorm comes in, because it gives you a quicker way to recover from an empty hand, something that can really be hurtful. I also had Choke sideboard, however I removed it in favor of the wishboard. I can see that it might be worth putting in my sideboard again, however I would have to see where yet.

In response to your Brainstorm points, I really feel like it gives you extra gas to seal the deal more quickly if you are already comboing out. If your not, and you're fighting a war of attrition it allows you to keep up with the opponent by replacing your enchantment effects. I too am abit worried about the enchantement count, but so far I have not had any problems running Brainstorm. In all honesty I never tried Sylvan Library yet, however I did try Mirri's Guile and even though I felt the effect was amazing, it was only that amazing when you managed to play it in the first few turns, but it would basically cycle for G if you drew it while your comboing off. Even while you were in a rut, it rarely happened that I was hoping for a Mirri's Guile over really most of the cards in the deck. In my opinion this means that you would have to run at least 3 md, or maybe even 4, to make it worth playing at all. I just felt that it wasn't good enough to warrant that amount of slots.

The Wishboard: I see your point here. Though I don't agree that it doesn't suit this deck in particular, a single Wish is very random and probably doesn't work all that well. I did test Shusher & Teeg mainboard with 2 zeniths and Dryad Arbor, and even though it worked well on many occasions, Shusher and Teeg were too often not what I wanted to cast and were dead in my hand, which is why the wishboard appeals so much to me.

I can get behind you on the Emrakul point, my original list didn't even have it because I felt it was too win-more aswell, and even though it still is I figured that having the wish might make it a worthwhile inclusion into the wishboard again. The Maze of Ith is there cause it obviously is quite good and I figured that while I was making a wishboard it would be a decent inclusion. In all honestly I haven't wished for it often yet, and I'm not sure I want to keep it there. As for O-Ring, it is indeed very good but I simply didn't find a place for a second one in my MB yet. It's probably better then Runed Halo against most decks, but as you said Runed Halo is good for the combo matchup which is mainly why it's there.

I'm sure you are a much more experienced Enchantress player then I am, and I'll accept your manabase without hesitation. Maybe I did go overboard with the island count, but I mainly did it cause I ran more growths over sprawls since basic land is more reliable then something that can get as easily misstepped as growth/sprawl. My testing with something close to my current manabase showed that I was often missing out on green sources, and with the increased fetchland count I would basically always fetch green first, allowing me to play wild growth's on whichever land I would fetch next, which meant I could run less forests and more plains and islands. However if I'm going to run more forests, more sprawls also make sense so I think that in the end it won't matter much and your build might be more optimal.

Reasoning

In the end the reasoning for me to look for this build was cause I was looking to build a deck which would rely less on silver bullets in the mainboard (like City of Solitude, Shusher, Teeg, Aura of Silence etc) and would have better matchups against non-aggro decks and would be more consistent against more control-heavy decks due to not slowing down so much when our engine got countered. I also felt that Words of Wind was better then Words of War most of the time, even though it's not a direct wincon I felt it was more useful in the earlygame. Words of War has really only been amazing for me so far against fish, which can easily misstep elephant grass but will not always want to force a Words of War.

I did play abit with the old school CoF/WoW/Stroke decks and it was loads of fun but as you said, it's really not that viable right now.

Also, thanks for being as critical and straightforward as you are. I'm happy to hear other opinions and I'm hoping there's a way we can make this variant work out. An updated decklist could be:


4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress

4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
2 Back to Basics
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Moat
1 Words of Wind

4 Brainstorm
2 Replenish
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Living Wish?
// (maybe a sprawl instead of this slot? It would remove the necessity for a wishboard though)

2 Wild Growth
3 Utopia Sprawl

1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Dovescape

4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
5 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island


Sideboard:

Wishboard:
1x Serra's Sanctum
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Gaddock Teeg

4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Null Rod
1x City of Solitude
1x Replenish
1x Karmic Justice
1x Choke

[ForlornEgoist]

No problem. I'm happy to help out whenever I can. Enchantress is definitely a favored child of mine, although without Moats I feel I've taken it as far as I can at the moment. =(

I'm not necessarily implying that Wish boards have no place in Enchantress, I'm simply saying that its one of those things where you need to decide if the added utility of it is worth compromising deck/SB space. At the time I was running Wish here was my list:
3 Living Wish
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Peacekeeper
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bojuka Bog (Flex spot between this or several utility enchantments based on expected meta)

Albeit I dedicated more space than you did, but often times I was running into a problem where my aggro-defensive MD would lose to control because I compromised SB slots to deal with it and this is an issue I've seen come up with many Enchantress players where they construct the MD specifically to answer a more aggro or control meta and in doing so compromise their SB ability to answer the other MU archetype.

I think that given the proper cards/tuning/meta a Wish board could become an entirely viable subtype to our deck. As of yet, however, I think it occupies more the role of a trick than a strategical improvement of the deck. In my case once I removed the Wish board and replaced the SB with City of Solitude/Choke/Pithing Needle I noticed my ability to deal with control improve far more than it ever did with Wish, all-the-while permitting me to retain a MD more able to deal with aggro.

Wish boards have always been a personal favorite and I would love to see an Enchantress use them sucessfully in a tournament. However, as they have as of yet been unable to post decent tourney results or proven themselves viable from personal experience, my conclusion is they still require greater amounts of playtesting before being consider optimal strategies.

Forlorn Egoist

[MVC]

Replacing an Enchantress with a wish isn't something that occured to me yet, but it makes alot of sense.

As for City, Choke & Pithing Needle mainboard, with (in my opinion), the increased resiliency against control/U decks we don't need City & Choke main anymore. They are however stlill very good sideboard cards which I'll keep in. Against U control, I guess the BtB's come out and City & Choke come in but even without having those mainboard the BtB's will be strong against control decks and have a better game1 against non-blue decks like B/W discard & the Rock.

Now for a wishboard, let's look at the decks (I know of), playing with a wishboard:

Storm Combo (TNT)
Solidarity
Aggro Loam
Cephalid Breakfast
Junk Depths

Out of these only Junk Depths and Cephalid Breakfast run Living Wish.

Cephalid uses it to assemble it's combo faster which heavily relies on creature effects.

Junk depths uses it in a similar fashion as we do, a toolbox with various ingredients. The only thing transferrable would be Kataki, which I guess would make a valuable addition easing game 1 against affinity or metalworker.

So as a wishboard (I just really want to try it lol) I would like to propose this:


3 Living Wish
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Kataki, War's Wage


I feel that between Moat, Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement I have no need for Peacekeeper as it is usually easy for our deck to ramp up to 4 mana turn 3 making moat a better option 80% of the time.

This also means that the extra Enlightened Tutors can come out of the sideboard because you have more acces maindeck to whatever is in there already. However, I would like to run an extra Enlightened Tutor to still enable turn1 tutor into Wheel or Null Rod.

This leaves this for a sideboard:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 City of Solitude
1 Choke
1 Null Rod
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Replenish

Wishboard:
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Kataki, War's Wage

This means I will have to cut two slots from the mainboard. Any suggestions as what those may be? (assuming I'll keep the blue splash and want to play 4 brainstorm)

I feel that with the addition of the wishboard we may go down to 3 Sterling Groves so that would be the first slot I'd cut. We might also be able to cut Words of Wind since the control matchup is already stronger and I feel that Words of Wind is the strongest on an empty board, while it's not all that necessary against the aggro matchup. And since we're not running Stroke combo it really might not be all that useful.

The decklist would look like this:

4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Argothian Enchantress

4 Elephant Grass
3 Sterling Grove
2 Back to Basics
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Moat

4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Living Wish
2 Replenish

2 Wild Growth
3 Utopia Sprawl

1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Dovescape

4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
5 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 City of Solitude
1 Choke
1 Null Rod
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Replenish

Wishboard:
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Kataki, War's Wage


How does this look? I intend to take this list or at least a BtB-based list to a few tournaments to see how it performs, I'll post results as soon as I have them. If there's any more suggestions I'm completely open to them.

[ForlornEgoist]

@ Moat > Peacekeeper

I totally aggree but not all of us are fortunate enough to own Moats (although 1 Enchantress player in my meta MD's 2 of them, damn him *shakes fist*).

Yea, throwing the Argothian in the SB essentially gives you Enchantress's 9/10 although she now costs 4 rather than 2. :p

I don't particularly agree with cutting 1 Sterling for 1 ET. Yea, ET accelerates the target a turn earlier at instant speed, but Sterling provides shroud which is relevant, particularly against Bant. Not to mention the obvious "enchantment," advantage as well as recursion via Replenish.

The 3rd SB Replenish seems redundant. Granted its added advantage versus Academy Ruins/Engineered Explosives shenanigans but to that end 2 Replenishes seems more than enough, not to mention Ground Seal performs the same job while also benefiting you a card and providing tech against Dredge/Extirpate etc. etc.

Since you're running a blue splash: Kataki, War's Wage < Energy Flux

Forlorn Egoist

[MVC]

Yeah Moats are terrible to come by. I don't own any either, but the playgroup I'm in has a few so I can borrow one or two for tournaments, though I think two is too much maindeck.

So what would you suggest I would remove instead of a Sterling Grove if I want a 3rd ET maindeck? So far I've onlyl noticed that I want SG online soon against two decks; Decks running Vindicate and Zoo with theier QPM's. Other decks I've encountered usually don't run any MB bounce.

As for the Replenish sideboard, it IS usually dead but against any deck running Pernicious Deed or Engineerd Explosives you absolutely need it to even have a chance to win, cause you just lose to Pernicious Deed in general. However, I'm willing to change it, but I'm not sure what I'm really missing in my sideboard right now. Any suggestions?

@ Energy Flux, even though it's strictly better then Kataki, it isn't a creature and therefore I feel Kataki is still more suitable. If I need even more artifact hate game 2 I would just board in Null Rod. Most artifact decks just die if you resolve it.

I was thinking that maybe Grand Abolisher would be good in the board aswell, maybe instead of the 3rd replenish? It basically gives you 1 CoS mainboard and 1 sideboard.

[dontbiteitholmes]

snip

If you want to beat control you are going the wrong direction. You need to drop as many "must counter" cards as you can and eventually they will run out of counters then you swamp them (unless they run MD Deed or something then you probably get stomped).

Brainstorm is bad here, you really want Mirri's Guile. If it sticks it gives you the best of the top 3 cards of your deck each turn and you can used fetches at the perfect time to shuffle away unwanted cards not to mention it takes a lot of the sting out of a live Jace. MD Choke is a good start, I think 1/2 of the meta being blue makes 1x Choke good enough overall even though it ends up being totally dead in some MUs. MD Blood Moon is usually a must counter. Replenish of course. Every Grove can fetch the best enchantment in your deck. Enchantress's are must counter as they turn all your throw away enchantments into draw spells. Out of the board you should bring in 3-4x Vexing Shusher and Dovescape. Enlightened Tutor is bad vs. counterspell decks. Moat leaves most control decks with only Clique or Jace as a finisher. Runed Halo is a tough card for them many times. The list goes on.

[MVC]

I'm not sure if I'm going in the right or wrong direction, I'm just trying to take a new approach against control decks, especially when you're fighting a war of attrition. As said before, I still have to test this thoroughly so you might be right.

However regarding Mirri's Guile, it is indeed great but as said before they're so dead if you draw multiples it goes downhill quite fast. Of course you can argue that it's an enchantment and that it replaces itself, but that's ONLY when you have at least one engine out.

As to the rest your saying, I agree that's how you should play against control when your playing the standard G/W/r list, but that's not this list so I'm gonna wait untill I have more testing done relying heavier on blue before I make a comment about whichever list works better. Maybe I'll end up switching back.

[Fjedsen]

Played a small tournament couple of weeks ago with this list:

4 Argothian Enchantress

4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Blood Moon
1 Runed Halo
1 City of Solitude
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

2 Replenish
2 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Plains
9 Forest
2 Serra's Sanctum

SB:
1 Emrakul
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dovescape
2 Choke
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Lignify
1 Karmic Justice
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence

Went 3-1 and became 4th (Worst opp-score of 9 point people)
Top 3:
1. Sligh
2. Reanimator
3. Manaless Dredge

I played against:
UW Control: 0-2
NO RUG: 2-1
Canadian Thresh: 2-0
Zoo: 2-1

I really like the builds with the splash for Words of War (and Blood Moon).
The SB is suboptimal for sure.

I have a problem with specific SB cards. Especially when it comes to what to bring in and what to take out. (SB Oblivion Ring vs Zoo and Planeswalker ? Carpet of Flowers only vs Combo ?)
What are your experiences ? And how do you sideboard in specific matchups ?
In general I wasn't so happy with Carpet of Flowers, 2 Vexing Shushers (-1 for the next time) and Lignify. They are leaving the SB for sure.

What are your thoughts on Dovescape ? Is it worth to play in the SB ?

[anonymos]

I have a problem with specific SB cards. Especially when it comes to what to bring in and what to take out. (SB Oblivion Ring vs Zoo and Planeswalker ? Carpet of Flowers only vs Combo ?)
What are your experiences ? And how do you sideboard in specific matchups ?
In general I wasn't so happy with Carpet of Flowers, 2 Vexing Shushers (-1 for the next time) and Lignify. They are leaving the SB for sure.

What are your thoughts on Dovescape ? Is it worth to play in the SB ?

Vexing Shusher is a card I was heavily opposed to for a long time. The thing is, I'm currently playing him as a one of in my board now that I've adopted GSZ.

Sideboarding is rough with this deck. A lot of times it is simply working to gain small advantages. Carpet of Flowers is something I bring in against all the blue decks. It usually replaces Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl. Lignify is something I put in the board when Reanimator wells up in the metagame if I'm too stubborn to play something else.

I still don't think Leyline of Sanctity is good enough to justify the board space over an extra Confinement.

Dovescape is something I fall in and out of like with. In theory, it's really good against the bad matchups (combo) and potentially back-breaking in the mirror. I have yet to have an amazing breakout series of games with it. I tried it back at SC Indy and never drew/played it. At the same time, I didn't play against many of the stoneblade decks I was expecting.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I'm not sure if I'm going in the right or wrong direction, I'm just trying to take a new approach against control decks, especially when you're fighting a war of attrition. As said before, I still have to test this thoroughly so you might be right.

However regarding Mirri's Guile, it is indeed great but as said before they're so dead if you draw multiples it goes downhill quite fast. Of course you can argue that it's an enchantment and that it replaces itself, but that's ONLY when you have at least one engine out.

As to the rest your saying, I agree that's how you should play against control when your playing the standard G/W/r list, but that's not this list so I'm gonna wait untill I have more testing done relying heavier on blue before I make a comment about whichever list works better. Maybe I'll end up switching back.

Mirri's Guile is not so dead in multiples as you can always hold it and draw cards later when you have an Enchantress in play or if you need to dig hard for an answer you can lay 2 and use fetchlands to see 6 cards a turn.

I saw the top 16 for the latest SCG and decided Enchantress is a strong contender today. I sleeved up 75 and drove down to Chicago for a weekly event just to test because what else am I going to do on a Monday night and went 3-1-1 losing fourth round to a misplay and drew round 2 to getting slow rolled (the guy wasn't intentionally slow rolling he just didn't know better and since it was a small event I didn't make a big deal about it).

Round 1 - NO RUG - Win
Round 2 - BG Aggro - Draw
Round 3 - UW Stoneforge - Win
Round 4 - Junk Depths - Lose (On some very poor playing on my part)
Round 5 - BR Goblins - Win (I almost can't lose this matchup)

My 75

// Lands
1 [6E] Plains (2)
6 [COM] Forest (2)
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Taiga
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
1 [SHM] Runed Halo
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 [ON] Words of War
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [UD] Replenish
4 [A] Wild Growth
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
2 [LG] Moat
1 [TE] Choke
3 [IN] Sterling Grove
3 [TE] Mirri's Guile

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [OD] Ground Seal
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [DIS] Dovescape
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher

I haven't tuned this deck recently and I built it about 10 mins. before I drove down because I didn't want to be late. In the end I think my recent lack of playing with the deck cost me round 4 as I made pretty bad misplays games 2&3 against what is a pretty solid matchup. If the metagame keeps looking like it did last weekend in boston I feel like Enchantress is a pretty solid contender. We have plenty of MD spells that say Progenitus and Batterskull can't attack and Misstep is more of a speedbump to this deck than an actual answer most of the time.

[zathe922]

What does Enchantress decks lose to? i tried playing various decks against it but ended up being completely locked all the time, my enchantment removal wasnt enough, it just delayed the lock one turn.

[dontbiteitholmes]

What does Enchantress decks lose to? i tried playing various decks against it but ended up being completely locked all the time, my enchantment removal wasnt enough, it just delayed the lock one turn.

Fast clock and well timed counters, combo, board sweepers (unless you land Karmic Justice first), early counters on card draw engine + Jace and fateseal the game away with counter backup.

Those are the things I lose 90% of my games to. The other 10% is either nut draws by opponent or bad draws by me or misplays.

[lordofthepit]

Is there another primer on this deck? Don't get me wrong, I think the "current one" on the front page has some value, but it's almost 5 years old and quite a few things have changed since then. I might want to pick up the deck at some point, but I would be a new Enchantress player and don't want to count on old strategy/advice.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Is there another primer on this deck? Don't get me wrong, I think the "current one" on the front page has some value, but it's almost 5 years old and quite a few things have changed since then. I might want to pick up the deck at some point, but I would be a new Enchantress player and don't want to count on old strategy/advice.

Enchantress is one of the hardest decks to play. I would put it a close second to Solidarity as the hardest decks I've played since I started. My #1 piece of advice is to play often, a primer on Enchantress would have to be a million words long to cover everything and a lot of things you just have to learn by playing some games out. Not to mention the DTB change every 10 days and the most important part about playing Enchantress is knowing when the field is not favorable and putting the deck down for a while to play something else.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Decklist.

There's no reason not to play at least a couple GSZ.

Lordofthepit -

Two basic pieces of advice;

1. Remember that when you pass the turn, you're crossing your fingers every time. You have to be able to judge your opponent's clock, ability to play sweepers, etc. But you also can't give into The Fear. You have to take chances with Solitaire.

2. Don't be afraid to mulligan bad hands. A bad hand is pretty much any hand without a turn 2 Enchantress effect. There are exceptions based on match-up, if you know it going in.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Decklist.

There's no reason not to play at least a couple GSZ.

Lordofthepit -

Two basic pieces of advice;

1. Remember that when you pass the turn, you're crossing your fingers every time. You have to be able to judge your opponent's clock, ability to play sweepers, etc. But you also can't give into The Fear. You have to take chances with Solitaire.

2. Don't be afraid to mulligan bad hands. A bad hand is pretty much any hand without a turn 2 Enchantress effect. There are exceptions based on match-up, if you know it going in.

[Hoojo]

Just out of curiosity, why is everyone moving away from Exploration? I found it to be worlds better than Wild Growth in providing additional mana when comboing out.

I noticed some lists contain a Karakas; how necessary have people found this? I assume it is for Emrakul, Iona, and Progenitus, and I just wondered how useful it would be since there isn't a way to tutor for it in this deck (unless you go with the Living Wish plan.)

I see a lot of decks running 3 win conditions; that seems like too much. I have been trying to focus entirely on the Words of War plan and running Sacred Mesa in the sideboard. I also run 4 Sterling Grove; I love the extra tutor and I like having them for protection.

I'm also considering a maindeck Blood Moon and wondered if anyone has any experience with this. I am running an Oblivion Ring, and I've only had to remove my own Blood Moon once to get Serra's Sanctum active. Of course, that once could be too much risk.

[anonymos]

I see a lot of decks running 3 win conditions; that seems like too much. I have been trying to focus entirely on the Words of War plan and running Sacred Mesa in the sideboard.

I'm also considering a maindeck Blood Moon and wondered if anyone has any experience with this. I am running an Oblivion Ring, and I've only had to remove my own Blood Moon once to get Serra's Sanctum active. Of course, that once could be too much risk.

People run 3 win conditions so that they don't have to waste tutors in order to find one in time to end the game. I ran 4 for a while when goblins was doing well to make sure I'd survive earwig squad.

Blood Moon is something that was talked about over a year ago. It was wonderful at the time. It's one of those metagame slots. It really depends on the meta as to whether or not it's good. My local meta is a terrible place for it. There's lots of zoo and low color commitment decks and they all fetch basics ASAP because of wastelands. Other places that may be infested with lands decks and such (why they'd be that way I don't know) are ideal for blood moon.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I also only run 1 win con. To be frank, I think anything more in the MD is giving into The Fear.

I also still run 2 Exploration in addition to 8 growth effects. They're awesome when comboing off, but not nearly as good as accelling a turn 2 Enchantress.

[ESG]

@Hoojo: 1) Wild Growth is pretty standard. I would play more than 4 if it were legal to do so. Exploration can be good in certain situations, but I ultimately cut it from my build in favor of other things. (At the moment, that spot is being filled by Carpet of Flowers.) Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal or Elvish Spirit Guide serve the same purpose as Exploration when you're going off.

2) Karakas doesn't do anything to Progenitus. It's essential against Reanimator and is good against Emrakul decks, although, in general, I wouldn't recommend running Enchantress if those decks are prominent. Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement make a mockery of Progenitus, so he's usually not a problem.

3) I run three win-cons at the moment. I have run as few as one in the past, and it was rarely a problem.

4) I found Blood Moon to be irrelevent, and it messes up Serra's Sanctum, but if your meta is such that it gets hosed by Blood Moon, then play it and profit.

[mishrazz]

Just out of curiosity, why is everyone moving away from Exploration? I found it to be worlds better than Wild Growth in providing additional mana when comboing out.

I noticed some lists contain a Karakas; how necessary have people found this? I assume it is for Emrakul, Iona, and Progenitus, and I just wondered how useful it would be since there isn't a way to tutor for it in this deck (unless you go with the Living Wish plan.)

I see a lot of decks running 3 win conditions; that seems like too much. I have been trying to focus entirely on the Words of War plan and running Sacred Mesa in the sideboard. I also run 4 Sterling Grove; I love the extra tutor and I like having them for protection.

I'm also considering a maindeck Blood Moon and wondered if anyone has any experience with this. I am running an Oblivion Ring, and I've only had to remove my own Blood Moon once to get Serra's Sanctum active. Of course, that once could be too much risk.

1. I run 2 Exploration and it great in this deck! i used to play chrome mox, but did'nt really like it much. I can't see any reasons NOT to play exloration.

2. I also run 1 karakas, and it won me a Legacy final match, so i just love it. Opponent had Vendilion Clique with Jitte, and karakas gave enough time to set up lock. It's also great against Emrakul and Iona, and you can also bounce your own Gaddock Teeg to play out Moat or sigil of the empty throne.

3. 3 win cons seem a little much to me. I would rather play 1 Enlightened tutor in addition to the groves.

4. Blood moon will always be a SB card in my opinion. No room for dead cards in Enchantress, but again, it depends on your meta. I run Aura of Silence maindeck because of combo and control heavy meta.

After playing Enchantress for a while i have concluded that Exploration and Karakas are important pieces, and there to stay.

[Fjedsen]

Hey,

ATM I am running this list:

4 Argothian Enchantress

4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Sterling Growth
4 Enchantress Presence
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Elephant Grass
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Runed Halo
1 Words of War
1 City of Solitude
2 Mirri's Guile

2 Replenish
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Enlightened Tutor

2 Serra Sanctum
3 Plains
8 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy

Sideboard:
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Choke
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Karmic Justice
1 Aura of Silence
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Blood Moon
1 Ground Seal
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Dovescape

As I wrote earlier I've got some issues with the sideboarding in specific matchups.
Sometimes I think I could take out card A and bring in B, but A would be good if he has card C, ...
Or I want to bring in a card which isn't really that good, but better then some main deck cards. And so on ...

What do you think ?
How should I sideboard against following decks ?
Lands (Is Aura of Silence necessary against his hate ?)
UW Stoneblade (Too much I could bring in. But what to take out ? Is it worth to bring in Oblivion Ring for Jace ?)
Zoo (Blood Moon and Oblivion Ring ? Surely better than City of Solitude but are they fast enough ?)

I am glad if you could gave some tipps and your thoughts behind the boarding :)

[anonymos]

Hey,

ATM I am running this list:

decklist is above

As I wrote earlier I've got some issues with the sideboarding in specific matchups.
Sometimes I think I could take out card A and bring in B, but A would be good if he has card C, ...
Or I want to bring in a card which isn't really that good, but better then some main deck cards. And so on ...

What do you think ?
How should I sideboard against following decks ?
Lands (Is Aura of Silence necessary against his hate ?)
UW Stoneblade (Too much I could bring in. But what to take out ? Is it worth to bring in Oblivion Ring for Jace ?)
Zoo (Blood Moon and Oblivion Ring ? Surely better than City of Solitude but are they fast enough ?)

I am glad if you could gave some tipps and your thoughts behind the boarding :)

I think I just played against you or someone with your list on MODO.

For your questions:

Lands= + karmic justice, wheel, blood moon, ground seal, crypt, dovescape
- 4 elephant grass, sigil, city of solitude
reasoning is that they're gonna have EE, so karmic justice is good, they're GY dependant which makes that good, and dovescape stops them cold (other than that they'll cast EE for as big as they can and possibly recurr it with academy ruins)

Stoneblade= +2 Choke, 1 O. Ring, 1 shusher
- 1 Confinement, Halo, 1 E. Grass
Keep Grass in even though it seems less than stellar. It keeps batterskull germs from attacking and forces them to rely on manaless counters. Most of their removal should be gone, which makes shusher solid. O. Ring for Jace

Zoo= +O. Ring
- Mirri's Guile
I'd only make this small swap since you're still weak to Teeg regardless. City of Solitude does small things for you like preventing EoT Knight activations and burn in response to you playing confinement. It's still better than random stuff. I'd look at how burn heavy they are and consider leyline as well. I don't play leyline at all personally and play a 4th solitary that would come in instead.

[Shawon]

Umm, yes please I'll take four! Well, this would have been more useful last year when Storm Combo was the top combo deck, and we already ownz Affinity. But still, this is still a very useful card to have. I'd recommend getting 1-2, if not four, for Enchantress.


[INN] Silence of Stone :1::w:

Enchantment
Artifact abilities cannot be activated.

[Fjedsen]

I think I just played against you or someone with your list on MODO.

For your questions:

Lands= + karmic justice, wheel, blood moon, ground seal, crypt, dovescape
- 4 elephant grass, sigil, city of solitude
reasoning is that they're gonna have EE, so karmic justice is good, they're GY dependant which makes that good, and dovescape stops them cold (other than that they'll cast EE for as big as they can and possibly recurr it with academy ruins)

Stoneblade= +2 Choke, 1 O. Ring, 1 shusher
- 1 Confinement, Halo, 1 E. Grass
Keep Grass in even though it seems less than stellar. It keeps batterskull germs from attacking and forces them to rely on manaless counters. Most of their removal should be gone, which makes shusher solid. O. Ring for Jace

Zoo= +O. Ring
- Mirri's Guile
I'd only make this small swap since you're still weak to Teeg regardless. City of Solitude does small things for you like preventing EoT Knight activations and burn in response to you playing confinement. It's still better than random stuff. I'd look at how burn heavy they are and consider leyline as well. I don't play leyline at all personally and play a 4th solitary that would come in instead.

Thanks for theese advices !

What do you think about the combo matchup ? I don't see it anymore that often. So is it worth to run the Leylines ? Or is the the 4th Confinement better than Leylines ?
What about

Silence of Stone

and


Nevermore 1:w::w:
Enchantment
As Nevermore enters the battlefield, name a nonland card.
The named card can't be cast.

from Innistrad ? Are they the new combo hosers ?

[lep]

Never More - 1WW
Enchantment
As Nevermore enters the battlefield, name a card. The named card can't be cast.

[NihilObstat]

"Sterling" Tutorable Null Rod and Meddling Mage.

Awesome cards!!! Thanks Wizards :D

[GoldenCid]

"Sterling" Tutorable Null Rod and Meddling Mage.

Awesome cards!!! Thanks Wizards :D

So...what do we cut???

[anonymos]

So...what do we cut???

Depends on how the metagame settles. The null rod may not be needed and the mage I'm guessing will be a 2 of. A lot of our slots are dedicated to the specific meta, so once we figure out what we need to stop, we put the best tools there.

[anonymos]

So...what do we cut???

Depends on how the metagame settles. The null rod may not be needed and the mage I'm guessing will be a 2 of. A lot of our slots are dedicated to the specific meta, so once we figure out what we need to stop, we put the best tools there.

[lep]

The null rod will be a fairly useful inclusion against the combo winter we are about to experience. It goes very far in the TES match up slowing their mana production down. High Tide is still a horrid matchup though.

[JustPAT4]

The null rod will be a fairly useful inclusion against the combo winter we are about to experience. It goes very far in the TES match up slowing their mana production down. High Tide is still a horrid matchup though.

Though it's pretty bad for Enchantress generally speaking, High Tide will have a hell of a time wining through Sterling Grove + Rule of Law. They'll have to wish for a bounce spell during your end step [if not running it in the main], bounce grove next turn, counter it when you re-cast it, then somehow get another bounce spell to hit Rule of Law. Double Grove plus Rule of Law is a hard lock. This is true against ANT, TES, and High Tide. I suppose you win via Angel token beats eventually.

[anonymos]

Though it's pretty bad for Enchantress generally speaking, High Tide will have a hell of a time wining through Sterling Grove + Rule of Law. They'll have to wish for a bounce spell during your end step [if not running it in the main], bounce grove next turn, counter it when you re-cast it, then somehow get another bounce spell to hit Rule of Law. Double Grove plus Rule of Law is a hard lock. This is true against ANT, TES, and High Tide. I suppose you win via Angel token beats eventually.

Don't need multiple bounce spells. It's called Capsize.

[JustPAT4]

Don't need multiple bounce spells. It's called Capsize.

I suppose this would be clever...if any of those decks ran Capsize...

[Fjedsen]

Would you still run Leylines ? Or cut them in Favor of Nevermore, Stony Silence, Rule of Law, ... or what ever ?

[Jeff]

Has anyone tested the High Tide matchup much yet? We've been testing it a bit, and so far the only games that Enchantress has won have been off the back of Double Grove + a hate card, be it Nevermore, Rule of Law, double Halos naming Brain Freeze and Blue Sun's Zenith. Has anyone found a reliable way to win with only a single Grove?

I've been playing the High Tide side, but a single grove and Rule of Law or Nevermore or something like that really hasn't been that big of a deal, because I can pretty easily bounce the grove and the hate card, and then go off, because Enchantress puts absolutely no clock on me, so I can sculpt the perfect hand as long as they don't get double grove.

[anonymos]

I would guess that the only feasible way to beat High Tide is to flip the table. That's purely theory though...

[Jeff]

Heh. Well, I don't think there's any way to make it a good matchup, but there are 4 players at my shop who have Candelabras, so I assume there will be a lot of High Tide, which means a sideboard plan is necessary, even if I can't make the matchup good, I want to at least have a plan.

J

[Jeff]

Heh. Well, I don't think there's any way to make it a good matchup, but there are 4 players at my shop who have Candelabras, so I assume there will be a lot of High Tide, which means a sideboard plan is necessary, even if I can't make the matchup good, I want to at least have a plan.

J

[KevinTrudeau]

Could Root Maze+Choke be a viable option? Just brainstorming here.

[Jeff]

I'm not certain you could actually set it up. Choke is actually not awful, since they actually tap out pretty regularly early on, so if you can land a choke while they have 2 or 3 tapped lands, it might make the difference in giving you time to set up an actual kill. Root Maze, on the other hand, has such limited utility if you don't have Choke down that I'm not sure it's really worth it.

It'd be pretty cool if you pulled it off though

[dontbiteitholmes]

Could Root Maze+Choke be a viable option? Just brainstorming here.

No. Combo is never going to be favorable. The best option I could think of would be splash one Trop and run In the Eye of Chaos in the side, but IMO not worth it since if combo is heavily played you are better off with a different deck.

[caiomarcos]

Did you all see the list that made 9th place in the last SCG Open? Pretty standard, but I still ask myself - why moxes?

On the feature match they had with the enchantress player, the only thing Mox did was force him to sacrifice a Confinement, where Exploration would've won him the game a couple turns earlier. That alone is reason enough not to run any Moxes. The few tmes it might give you a turn 1 Argothian is not worth the dead weight during the rest of the game, every game.

I actually tried and tested them a while ago and did find them awful, but people keep on playing them so I think there must be something I haven't noticed. What is it?

He also plays Shusher but no GSZ. I'm not a fan of Shusher in enchantress, but if you're playing them, a couple of GSZ would make sense, no?

edit: link to the decklist http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=41105

[GoldenCid]

3 Sterling groove, tutors in the side and mox main deck. It is at least curious.maybe he tested very very well the list and felt comfortable with it.

[nedleeds]

If you land Leyline of Sanctity pre-game, the High Tide player has to bounce Grove first. Sometimes that can buy you enough time to win out.

[The Spanish Tunnel King]

I remember when I played this deck a lot My favourite out to combo was turn 2 solitary confinement, discard some wheels of sun and moon and dovescape into replenish ^^. But such awesome hands are not always possible :). I do think that the addition of nevermore to the deck makes it much stronger against 'midrange' combo (ANT and Spring tide et al). I managed to get up to around 50/50 postboard by bringing in 2 runed halo and 3 nevermores (overkill I know, but I wanted to know how good they were...) which means with a bit of luck you might be able to sneak a match against storm. To be honest, I was going to dust this deck off (its been my baby since Urza's :)) as I think its pretty well placed in the meta. And ideas on fighting re-animater/non-storm combo anyone? Above and beyond the karakas/lignify/o-ring and hope they show 'n' tell. Ta!

The Spanish Tunnel King