[Deck] Zoo

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

So based on everyone's suggestion, we should start with this metagamed Zoo skeleton:
4x Living Wish
4x Fauna Shaman
4x Wasteland
4x Squadron Hawk
4x Fireblast
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Jitte
1x SOFI

:laugh:

[jandax]

@Jandax I see that you're from Utrecht and I know that Zoo isn't that popular in Holland. But in most metagames it is.
Nobody is happy about a turn 1 Nacatl either so thats not really an issue. A topdecked Lynx is terrible and lynx builds do not win from the non lynx builds.

You got that right, I've been playing legacy for close to a year and I've never sat down across from another Zoo deck. And I never felt a Lynx was a bad topdeck, as I use fetchlands sparingly because i run it so having an extra fetch or two down already in the middle of the game makes it not so dead a draw. Never what I hope for, obviously, but I've been pleased with it so far. Zoo isn't popular here, nor can it sweep any given tournament. It is a deck I enjoy playing while I'm learning this format.

[JCrawl85]

So based on everyone's suggestion, we should start with this metagamed Zoo skeleton:
4x Living Wish
4x Fauna Shaman
4x Wasteland
4x Squadron Hawk
4x Fireblast
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Jitte
1x SOFI

:laugh:

Why would you run Fauna Shaman when Survival of the Fittest strictly better? You can activate Survival more than once a turn, and it's not attached to a body so it can't be burned... I'm still trying to figure out if this post is a joke or not.

[Curby]

It is a joke.

By the way, I was referring to threat density in terms of more creatures to field, when considering Shaman vs Library. And no I haven't tested it. But I wouldn't use 4 in the deck either.

[troopatroop]

This list just got 1st in the Japanese Champs. Big Zoo /w Elspeth.


4xWindswept Heath
4xWooded Foothills
1xArid Mesa
2xTaiga
2xPlateau
1xSavannah
1xTropical Island
1xVolcanic Island
3xWasteland
1xSkarrg, the Rage Pits
1xForest
1xPlains

4xWild Nacatl
3xGrim Lavamancer
3xNoble Hierarch
4xQasali Pridemage
4xTarmogoyf
4xKnight of the Reliquary

4xLightning Bolt
4xChain Lightning
4xPath to Exile
2xSylvan Library
2xElspeth, Knight-Errant

SB:
3xTormod's Crypt
3xRed Elemental Blast
4xMeddling Mage
3xPyroblast
2xKrosan Grip


I think this is serious evidence of Elspeth's impact on the Zoo deck, note the other Zoo in the top 8 also played it. Noble Hierarch sticks out, but I think it makes alot of sense. Casting Elspeth becomes faster, Exalted "wins" the mirror, and Mana is always good. I can imagine him being much better than Kird Ape at least. I really like this list, it seems good in the Mirror and against Countertop. What does every1 think?

[jandax]

This looks like Rubin Zoo of last year's PT that Kibler won; making the main deck bigger and sideboard more resilient. It could be some good tech in a metagame full of ground pounders. Not much more I can contribute, I haven't played the list but I have saved it for future reference. Innovation is necessary

[Deady]

Deck list above looks like a weird shade of a Bant deck without blue :rolleyes: I don't see any reasons for this change, since you're basically moving away from the real agressive strategy that Zoo is known for. I also don't see why you'd make your mana base even worse with a single tropical island for a SB Mage. Noble Hierarch for example is never going to be as great as she is in UGW bant/aggro decks where she gives way more options and where she fits perfectly in the whole strategy. I don't know, to me it seems like the above list prays for something that it just isn't.

[troopatroop]

Deck list above looks like a weird shade of a Bant deck without blue :rolleyes:

Completely devoid of content.

I don't see any reasons for this change, since you're basically moving away from the real agressive strategy that Zoo is known for.
Again, no content. What changes? Elaborate, don't assume we know what you're talking about


I also don't see why you'd make your mana base even worse with a single tropical island for a SB Mage
There are two blue lands. Volcanic and Trop. Meddling Mage is at least a solid SB card. Do you think otherwise?


Noble Hierarch for example is never going to be as great as she is in UGW bant/aggro decks where she gives way more options and where she fits perfectly in the whole strategy.
Why? Apart from not tapping for Red mana, what is different? Getting more Exalted triggers in the Zoo deck is good, and she accelerates this deck just as well as Bant for the most part. I would contest that certain lines of play feature Hierarch helping this deck just as much as she does bant.

I don't know, to me it seems like the above list prays for something that it just isn't.

Winning a massive tournament in Japan proves that the deck is very good. Maybe you're just stuck in your ways.

[nodahero]

Actually it does not prove that in the least.

For simplicity sake let us imagine a meta game of 15 decks composed of all islands and this deck... clearly it will win... Yes I understand I am over simplifying it but the point is it really does not prove a single thing. It could easily be a statistical anamoly or he could have picked the right deck for the meta.... Simple as that.

[jandax]

Lesson to all those who want to improve their game: Don't think like Deady

[PanderAlexander]

Actually it does not prove that in the least.

For simplicity sake let us imagine a meta game of 15 decks composed of all islands and this deck... clearly it will win... Yes I understand I am over simplifying it but the point is it really does not prove a single thing.

Over simplifying? No, much worse. Your point is if it was a decent deck playing in a meta of a bunch of bad decks it will win but did you even take a look at the results before saying that? That tournament had 174 players and take a look at the top 8:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18266-AMC-Results-and-2010-Japanese-Legacy-Championship-Top8

That deck has proven itself already in that tournament and nothing will change that.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I actually like that list. It reminds me of one a guy used to play in my shop. He ran Bloodbraid Elf, Hierarch, and planeswalkers too. I wouldn't exactly call it Zoo but it works as a deck. It smashes the ever so dreaded Counterbalance matchup, and has Nacatls and Goyfs and small guys to still take care of Merfolk and Gobs.

Edit: One other thing, I don't think Wastelands maindeck are the way to go, even with Hierarch.

[Valtrix]

Edit: One other thing, I don't think Wastelands maindeck are the way to go, even with Hierarch.

I'm actually thinking that 1-2x Wastelands would be beneficial for this deck, at the very least to get with Knight of the Reliquary. Why? Because I feel like a lot more decks are playing academy ruins, and that card is terrible for us. It can also be useful vs. decks running manlands, delay people from playing a Jace, randomly screw people, and help us against a little bit versus lands. I almost certainly wouldn't want to cut a spell for it though, and I really like the 21 colored lands, but it's very probable to replace one of them with a colorless source without much loss in functionality/consistency. I also think that's it's a very strong play for us to play a guy, and waste their mana source next turn, so drawing it shouldn't be a problem.

[Valtrix]

Edit: One other thing, I don't think Wastelands maindeck are the way to go, even with Hierarch.

I'm actually thinking that 1-2x Wastelands would be beneficial for this deck, at the very least to get with Knight of the Reliquary. Why? Because I feel like a lot more decks are playing academy ruins, and that card is terrible for us. It can also be useful vs. decks running manlands, delay people from playing a Jace, randomly screw people, and help us against a little bit versus lands. I almost certainly wouldn't want to cut a spell for it though, and I really like the 21 colored lands, but it's very probable to replace one of them with a colorless source without much loss in functionality/consistency. I also think that's it's a very strong play for us to play a guy, and waste their mana source next turn, so drawing it shouldn't be a problem.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I'm actually thinking that 1-2x Wastelands would be beneficial for this deck, at the very least to get with Knight of the Reliquary. Why? Because I feel like a lot more decks are playing academy ruins, and that card is terrible for us. It can also be useful vs. decks running manlands, delay people from playing a Jace, randomly screw people, and help us against a little bit versus lands. I almost certainly wouldn't want to cut a spell for it though, and I really like the 21 colored lands, but it's very probable to replace one of them with a colorless source without much loss in functionality/consistency. I also think that's it's a very strong play for us to play a guy, and waste their mana source next turn, so drawing it shouldn't be a problem.

My problem is that the decks where you would wanna screw with those, have recursion. So unless you're going to oneshot them on that turn like it is in a episode of Bleach, then it doesn't seem that good, in my opinion at least. I would rather have either more colored land or a spell that is going to do something. I've just always hated on Wasteland. I know it's potential, but this deck is color hungry like a MoFo.

[troopatroop]

My problem is that the decks where you would wanna screw with those, have recursion. So unless you're going to oneshot them on that turn like it is in a episode of Bleach, then it doesn't seem that good, in my opinion at least. I would rather have either more colored land or a spell that is going to do something. I've just always hated on Wasteland. I know it's potential, but this deck is color hungry like a MoFo.

Not always. Decks hurt by Wasteland that don't have recursion : Zoo, Pro-Bant, ThopterFoundry, Storm, etc

I think this deck functions off of three mana really well. The assertion that the deck requires all colored lands is incorrect. Wasteland is the best card in your deck for many matchups, especially when you are the beatdown. Denying your opponent a Land can break a game wide open. Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Waste + Tarmogoyf/Pridemage is very strong. There has been a long running stigma against running Wasteland in 3 color aggro decks, because consistantly hitting the correct mana can be troublesome. It seems that with enemy colored fetches, Noble Hierarch, and Sylvan Library, you can effectively play the Zoo deck with Wasteland. The winner even went further with it, splashing 2 blue duals in order to play Meddling Mage, which seems better than ever. Skarrg, the rage pits actually seems very good too! In a format where Tarmogoyf and Wild Nacatl's often stare down equally big creatures, holding mana open along with Skarrg is strong. They can't block, and you play something second main with the mana. It can also help cast Tarmogoyf, Knight, Elspeth, and Library. Can we at least discuss that card?

[jandax]

I think it is on par with Jitte in Zoo right now. That +1/+1 and trample fit all our dumb beats quite nicely. However, like Jitte, it is sort of a mana pit. Sure, sometimes they won't block and it'll be profitable, but we want them to block. We want to beat up their dudes in the red zone.

The idea of Noble Hierarchs and Planeswalkers seems like another deck to me. I mean, sans BSA, wouldn't the Rubin Zoo of late last year translate nicely into Legacy? That deck was built for a format full of Naya zoo with fast dudes and burn. It won and is a great case study. It is probably true that this deck was built for that metagame, and to play it untuned anywhere else would probably lead do mediocre performances. However, that doesn't mean we can't take and learn from it and translate that strategy into our own metagames.

[Media314r8]

Went 4-0 with wasteland zoo last night at our local Columbus Legacy tournament. played:
Enchantress 2-1
Survival Elves 2-0
Landstill 2-1
Lands 2-0 (now 3 for 3 in matches against lands, 5-0-1 in games)

Despite not getting to play either merfolk or goblins, (both still incredible MUs, especially with 4 lavamancers, 3equips+3stoneforge main) the deck trounced. Wastelands were critical in literally every MU, killing serra's sanctum against enchantress, Tiaga (for anger + mana elves) against Survival elves, 2ns white sources and factories against landstill. Against lands: endstep, fetch waste, untap, fetch waste, kill both mazes, kill you, and enstep, fecth waste, waste chasm, untap, fetch bojuka bog, exile chasm and loam, eventually kill you. Cannot say enough about the utility of wasteland in this perticular aggro deck, having 23 lands instead of 21 also causes fewer mulligans. I've even double-wasted myself inside attacks to make an unblocked knight lethal. I would say don't just believe me, test it, but the stubbornness of the people in DTB forums keeps innovation from happening.

[jandax]

care to post a list?

[Media314r8]

care to post a list?

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [PT] Mountain (1)
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
1 [SHM] Plains (4)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
3 [LG] Sylvan Library
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [DK] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

Yes, there are only 4 grims and 4 helixes that go to the dome, but with combo on the downswing, killing fast isn't as important IMO as being consistent and more powerful in the red zone. I cut the bolts as looking at the DTBs, I was boarding in StPs (the blood moons and the SoFI used to be plows) against all but combo and landstill, so i moved them to the main, as swords deals with goyf much more frequently than bolt does. Before people mention path, look at the list again, do you really want to help people find their basics with 4 wastes main and SB blood moons? It's just my take on it, and it has tested very well against all of the DTBs save for TES, which can occasionally be beaten with a well timed waste or a lucky teeg, but combo is our class cannon. This deck is made to beat the rest of the field.

[Neuad]

God I envy you guys that live in less cut throat metagames. I'm not saying everywhere else is under developed or anything but everyone I've talked to says Detroit/SE michigan has one of the most competitive meta games in the country. Ann Arbor for legacy, Livonia for standard.

[jandax]

Well if you play there then you can play anywhere, eh? Might feel good to go on a trip, bring your legacy build and crush a local tournament

[Neuad]

We are. Except we are bringing like 8 copies of Enchantress.


Enchantress Day!

[jandax]

Man, I bet that shop will permaban you guys lol

@media: Digging the decklist, but only testing will stop my kringing at the lack of certain "staples" we all know and love for Naya Zoo. The main thing I get behind is teh 4 wastelands. feels good man

[Nelis]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [PT] Mountain (1)
1 [LRW] Forest (2)
1 [SHM] Plains (4)
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Taiga
2 [R] Plateau

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
3 [LG] Sylvan Library
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares



Do you really need 3 Sylvan Libraries? Don't the 3 Stoneforge Mystics and 3 Equipment offer some form of card selection too?

I also wonder if you should not run Lightning Bolt over Helixes? You also need mana to equip your creatures or play an equipment so you might not have 2 mana available. Playing an equipment also has a negative influence on your threat density and even tempo loss if your creature is sworded or burned when you equip it.Being able to burn an opponents creature can offset that problem.

[jandax]

With a 6 card SFM package and three libraries, this is way more of a midrange Naya deck than a proper Zoo build. Therefore, I can see the utility of Helix over bolt as a plus. Playing this deck like a fast zoo build will be more than awkward. Playing it like a midrange beatdown deck is probably the best application of the list

[Nelis]

With a 6 card SFM package and three libraries, this is way more of a midrange Naya deck than a proper Zoo build. Therefore, I can see the utility of Helix over bolt as a plus. Playing this deck like a fast zoo build will be more than awkward. Playing it like a midrange beatdown deck is probably the best application of the list

For the original zoo (those that do not run lynxes) lists which are also considered midrange by many 2 libraries are more than sufficient. And libraries in multiples are not that good.

I wonder how effective this deck is vs zoo decks that utilize the early game better.

Apart from KotR and maybe Tarmogoyf every creature dies to burn removal of which the 'fast' zoo decks have more. I have 14 removal (of which 10 burn spells), this deck only 8 (of which 4 burn spells). I'm theorizing here but it would seem to me that this deck has taken a lot of damage before it gets to midgame. I should be able to keep on attacking and burning away early blockers.

It seems to me its hard to utilize SFM lets say turn 2 or 3 when the pressure is on. And SFM is a weak creature in itself so bad for blocking. And to be able to make use of the equipment you don't want to lose any of the creature on the board, especially if SFM is the only creature.

I guess wasteland compensates these effects somewhat because it would screw my manabase so maybe that negates the effects mentioned above. But it seems to me that opposing wastelands also do this deck no good.

I think I would be a bit more conservative if I wanted to play a list like these list and take out 1 SFM, an equipment, one Helix and a Library to fit in 4 Lightning Bolt.

To be honest Im not convinced that the extra midgame options this deck has adds to the midrange possibilities of the 'original' Zoo build. But I do like running wastelands in Zoo. I haven't taken the time yet to try them out myself (I'm more into UW Tempo and Goblins atm) but I will sometime in the future.

Im happy to hear Media314r8 's take on all this theorizing.

[jandax]

3 librarys and a 6pack SFM is way too heavy for my tastes. So many other decks roll the midgame that, through my experience with Zoo, that is the warning track. I agree with your accessments though, I too like a set of Wastes in Zoo as innovation. Did you play the Utrecht Open last month? Have we ever played? I'm probably the only American (that I know of) playing Magic in holland

[kiwi]

I have seen some versions of zoo with Fireblast and gaddock teeg in main making top 8.

What do you think about include Gaddock Teeg and Fireblast in main deck ?

I dont want to have gaddock teeg in play and drawing a Fireblast but I would like to read your opinions :)

[jandax]

I run 2 Blasts and teeg's maindeck. You just have to be careful, that's all. Shoot him with Lavamancer, run him into a blocker, path him, there's ways out.

[Nelis]

3 librarys and a 6pack SFM is way too heavy for my tastes. So many other decks roll the midgame that, through my experience with Zoo, that is the warning track. I agree with your accessments though, I too like a set of Wastes in Zoo as innovation. Did you play the Utrecht Open last month? Have we ever played? I'm probably the only American (that I know of) playing Magic in holland

No, I haven't been in Utrecht in a while. My financial situation wont let me. I don't think we've met yet.

Personally I'm not set on Fireblast. I don't like risking drawing them in early game or having them in my opening hand. I have enough confidence in Zoo's capabilities to survive the midgame that I don't think Fireblast is really need as a finisher either.

On Gaddock Teeg. I dont know how good ANT is atm. I think I would put them in the sideboard unless ANT and other combo are still unbeatable without hate game 1.

[Grillo]

I've been using Teegs and Blasts maindeck too. It's never been a problem so far. I think Teeg is the card you have to keep maindeck if you want to lose one of them. Fireblasts I use mostly for flavor reasons.

Going back to the Big Zoo topic. I'm pretty much buying the idea. There is another big zoo in deckcheck.net (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36982) that made 2th place in an 81 people tournament. That's something.

I took it as a shell and I'm testing this at the moment:

// Lands
1 [U] Savannah
1 [OD] Plains (3)
1 [RAV] Forest (2)
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [U] Plateau
2 [U] Taiga
2 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

Pretty good if you ask me. It's more of an aggro-control deck so maybe It's not even zoo any more. But it plays really well.
Wasteland has been great for me. Which is natural given the more controlish version of the deck.

Any others giving Big Zoo a try?

[Valtrix]

I still think helixes are the wrong choice. The extra 3-life is never worth the lost tempo (or instant speed over chian lightning) from costing 2-mana, in my opinion, even if it's better in the mirror.

[troopatroop]

I still think helixes are the wrong choice. The extra 3-life is never worth the lost tempo (or instant speed over chian lightning) from costing 2-mana, in my opinion, even if it's better in the mirror.

/agree. I like the Japanese list alot still, and that plays 4 Bolt and 4 Chain.

[jandax]

Perhaps legacy Big Zoo's results warrant testing. It really reminds me of the Extended season last year. Lil Zoo beating up on people then Ben Rubin makes a Big Zoo to beat up on the Lil Zoo and other stuff ready to fight lil zoo as well.

[PanderAlexander]

Disappointing that not any variant of Zoo made itop 8 in GP Columbus. Zoo was suppose to be "the" deck after mystical-banning, guess everyone was soo afraid and hated Zoo out.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Yay, now the wanna-be pros will pick up UB Merfolk and we can continue to thrash them.

[jandax]

Now lets be fair, Hatfield got within spitting distance of the top 8 loosing to Martell who went out in the Finals. He always puts up results with Zoo, proving that with lots of practice one can put up results in a large tournament running a tuned Zoo list. I think that tournament was for the ringers only. The top 8 had quite the pro tour experience, Nelson finishing in his third premiere top 8 of the year, Saito as well, Martell coming off of a LCQ into top 32 in San Juan, where the others may have a top 8 between them. I mean, I watched the top 8 play offs and it seems that the pro's got there on the backs of their skill, where the rest of them probably have played a bit of Legacy. Makes you really wonder how one can get through 16 rounds of a Premiere Legacy event and not know how to play against a Standstill

[FoulQ]

Hi zoo players...ready for a question? I've always wondered: how important is it for you to have graveyard hate in your sideboard? I'm contemplating cutting it, but I haven't done enough testing with the deck to really know for sure. What do you think about it?

Also, does anyone know where Hatfield's list from the GP is?

ETA: Is sylvan library good in the mirror? And is wasteland any good in lists without noble hierarch?

[PanderAlexander]

Also, does anyone know where Hatfield's list from the GP is?



Main Deck

60 cards

3 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
23 lands


4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 creatures 3 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Sylvan Library

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16 other spells


Sideboard

3 Choke
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tormod's Crypt

[jandax]

Yay, now the wanna-be pros will pick up UB Merfolk and we can continue to thrash them.

Yeah I'm kinda happy about that too. I am sure Saito's play skill carried him through that gauntlet of Zoo/Goblins. I wish Hatfield woulda made it to the Top 8. But then again, Zoo in the top 8 would have justified even more people playing it which isn't necessarily a good thing. Haters gonna hate

[Neuad]

Here's the zoo list I went to the GP with.

// Lands
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [R] Plateau
2 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Savannah
1 [ROE] Forest (1)
1 [ROE] Mountain (1)
1 [ROE] Plains (1)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [10E] Treetop Village

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [WWK] Loam Lion
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic

// Spells
4 [M10] Lightning Bolt
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [HOP] Lightning Helix
2 [EX] Price of Progress
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [LG] Chain Lightning

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 2 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 1 [TE] Wasteland
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [WWK] Basilisk Collar
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip


I did terribly but it was my first major tournement, except for a few GPT's, and made a bunch of play mistakes but I'm quite happy with the deck.

Now that I'm going back home to play before any big tournements I need to turn away from the more broad meta this deck is geared for and aim towards my own.

Our normal legacy group consists of a few Enchantresses, a few landstill. A kid ocassionally plays TES or some form of Tendrils Storm, but not often and the only other combo deck that shows up is Belcher from time to time. Any suggestions?

My initial thoughts are

-2 Helix
+2 Chains

Some enchantment hate SB aside from KGrips. A Rev silence perhaps? Or Fracturing Gust


Edit - Also to give you an idea of the direction I'd like to go, I like the idea behind Big Zoo and once Elspeth's dual deck comes out, I'm buying 1-2 and adding them in and building towards it.

I don't like Steppe Lynx, thats why they arent in there. They are good for a first turn drop IF you have a fetch, but if you start running out of fetches or have no land drop, its a dead card. . .

[jandax]

Steppe lynx is hot in the mirror and it lets you rip a land and be a hero. Coupled with KotR and a little conservative play, it is most often not a dead card. Worst case scenario is that you can throw it under the bus.

[Neuad]

Well my other thought was taking out the MB equip package and moving Jitte to SB, putting in atleast 2 Steppe Lynx, if not 4 somehow.

I'll keep my eye out and take better note of what runs around my local store but the decks I can put down for sure.

1 Countertop Thopter
2-3 Landstill
2-3 Enchantress
1 Shelldrazi
1 Belcher
1 Eva Green
1 Goblins
1 Storm Combo
1 Loam based Rock deck
1 Big Zoo, but the player sucks. I almost took him to time in the round with Goblins, and I didn't know how to play against zoo at the time so was failing miserably.

[jandax]

Well, because I run lynx speedy zoo, I have chosen to forgo the SFM package all together as it is a bit slow. If I were to switch over to the Big Zoo deck, I'd think it'd have to come back in because its a great toolbox.

[Happy Gilmore]

I think zoo was played a lot less then people think. Also, looking at the top 64 decks you will see a number of them, atleast three anyway. Anwar played it to 33, Alix to 12th and myself to 59th. I finished day one 8-1 and Alix was 8-0-1. Anwar basically won out day two like the beast he is, losing two rounds right at the end (not his fault at all).

[jandax]

Did you feel you predicted the metagame (and thus constructed your SB) appropriately? I too was somewhat surprised at the lack of Zoo. For such a consistent deck in a wide open field, maybe it's good it wasn't represented in strength.

[PanderAlexander]

I think zoo was played a lot less then people think. Also, looking at the top 64 decks you will see a number of them, atleast three anyway. Anwar played it to 33, Alix to 12th and myself to 59th. I finished day one 8-1 and Alix was 8-0-1. Anwar basically won out day two like the beast he is, losing two rounds right at the end (not his fault at all).

http://69.8.198.251/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpcol10/day2#1a

Zoo was basically double than any other deck (bant with the * represented new horizon, agro bant, etc).

[kiwi]

Happy Gilmore, can you put your list ? It would be interesting too see diferent zoo list with succes in the gp.

[Happy Gilmore]

I played the list that I went undefeated with in the GPT at Jupiter games.

4 Goyf
4 Loam Lion
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Nacatyl
4 Quasali Pridemage
2 Sulfur Elemental

3 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast
4 Path to Exile
3 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt

3 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains

SB:
1 Eternal Witness
3 Swords To Plowshares
2 Choke
2 Pyroblast
2 Johtun Grunt
2 Bojuka Bog
3 Krosan Grip

Re: the deck statistics, I assure you that the percentage of zoo relative to the field on day 1 was surprisingly less than the day two numbers lead people to believe. One thing that can be said is that of the decks played, it easily had the best percentage of day two slots out of any deck relative to the number of zoo decks played day 1. I looked around a bit, and I think you would be surprised to find that zoo made up a smaller percentage of the field than it apears.

[kiwi]

why do you play sulfur elemental ?? Againts what pairings its better Sulfur elemental than Knight of Reliquary or Burning-tree Shaman ?

[from Cairo]

why do you play sulfur elemental ?? Againts what pairings its better Sulfur elemental than Knight of Reliquary or Burning-tree Shaman ?

The decks with Rhox War Monk and the decks with Mother of Runes. Not saying Sulfur Elemental is worth MDing, but it's pretty good against those two cards.

EDIT: + Steppe Lynx

[kiwi]

Sulfur elemental also is good againts Elspeth tokens

[Curby]

It has its uses, yes. But these are all still narrow applications, more suited to a sideboard than the maindeck. Perhaps the question is "why's it in the main?" After all, Black doesn't just autoinclude Perish in its mainboard, and green critters are arguably more important overall in Legacy.

[supachai]

Hmm. Sulfur Elemental gives +1/-1 to Loam Lion and Pridemage, giving both enough power to take down Rhox War Monk. Seem interesting tech at the very least.

[Windux]

I got two questions:
1. In which meta is Steppe lynx better than Loam Lion
2. In which meta is Lightning Helix better than Fireblast?

[jandax]

Thing is, there's no such thing as a "Legacy Metagame". There are so many viable strategies, that it can only boil down as far as likely decks you'll face. But you'll never be able to pinpoint it unless your local scene has X players who you know to play X decks. Because there's so many different viable strategy, it comes down to being a skillful player more than bringing the right 75 to the tournament. From turn 1 there are decisions to be made taht'll affect the outcome of the entire game. Outside of eternal formats, one can't really make that claim.

Moving on, Lynx is good against midrange creature decks. He is a great turn 1 play, and lets you rip a land and still be in the game. Helix might be better in a fast agro environment with lots of Zoo and Goblins and Sligh and the like. Helix is more midrange burn/removal where Lynx is 20 dmg NAO oriented.

[keys]

simple


I got two questions:
1. In which meta is Steppe lynx better than Loam Lion
Heavy control/combo. It's faster, but an ugly topdeck. Also bad on defense.


2. In which meta is Lightning Helix better than Fireblast?
Heavy aggro, especially if you expect lots of the mirror. Lifegain is good in the mirror, and sacrificing lands is bad when games get drawn out.

[troopatroop]

What is everyone's opinion on Elspeth? I feel like both her +1 abilities are good for the deck, with even greater attention to the +3/+3 flying ability. We play the best creatures, and are a damage oriented deck. If Elspeth's first impact on the game is sending a Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, or Knight of the Reliquary in with +3/+3 and Evasion, I feel like that's just godlike. I'm speaking more in line with the Noble Hierarch "Big Zoo" deck, but I'm looking for feedback. What are your opinions on this? We rarely see Elspeth in the Zoo deck, but the Japanese seem to like it. She can win the game on her own, and can be cast on turn 3 with Hierarch's help. This deck controls the board/attack step like no other deck in Legacy. Does Elspeth further this deck's dominance in that department?

[lordofthepit]

What is everyone's opinion on Elspeth? I feel like both her +1 abilities are good for the deck, with even greater attention to the +3/+3 flying ability. We play the best creatures, and are a damage oriented deck. If Elspeth's first impact on the game is sending a Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, or Knight of the Reliquary in with +3/+3 and Evasion, I feel like that's just godlike. I'm speaking more in line with the Noble Hierarch "Big Zoo" deck, but I'm looking for feedback. What are your opinions on this? We rarely see Elspeth in the Zoo deck, but the Japanese seem to like it. She can win the game on her own, and can be cast on turn 3 with Hierarch's help. This deck controls the board/attack step like no other deck in Legacy. Does Elspeth further this deck's dominance in that department?

She's awesome if she resolves. Her pump-jump ability is excellent in this deck, her ability to churn out tokens provides the deck resilience after a sweeper (or chump blockers to deal with a fatty when behind), and her ultimate is just gravy. That being said, I'm not playing her because I don't really want to move towards big Zoo yet.

[Grillo]

What is everyone's opinion on Elspeth? I feel like both her +1 abilities are good for the deck, with even greater attention to the +3/+3 flying ability. We play the best creatures, and are a damage oriented deck. If Elspeth's first impact on the game is sending a Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, or Knight of the Reliquary in with +3/+3 and Evasion, I feel like that's just godlike. I'm speaking more in line with the Noble Hierarch "Big Zoo" deck, but I'm looking for feedback. What are your opinions on this? We rarely see Elspeth in the Zoo deck, but the Japanese seem to like it. She can win the game on her own, and can be cast on turn 3 with Hierarch's help. This deck controls the board/attack step like no other deck in Legacy. Does Elspeth further this deck's dominance in that department?

I've been trying the "big zoo" list I posted on page 140. I really feel that Hierarch and Elspeth are great in a "zoo shell". Elspeth really seals the deal when it lands. I think that it compliments the attack strategy of zoo very well pumping your creatures, or creating blockers when you tap out attacking. It also helps after a firespout or wrath effect.

The deck gets a bit more controlish but it feels good and legit.

@ troopatroop: I'm glad you like the approach, because I do too ;) I have read your comments here and in the naya sligh thread (some time ago) and I think you have a very good understanding about how aggro decks work.

[Justin]

What is everyone's opinion on Elspeth? I feel like both her +1 abilities are good for the deck, with even greater attention to the +3/+3 flying ability. We play the best creatures, and are a damage oriented deck. If Elspeth's first impact on the game is sending a Wild Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, or Knight of the Reliquary in with +3/+3 and Evasion, I feel like that's just godlike. I'm speaking more in line with the Noble Hierarch "Big Zoo" deck, but I'm looking for feedback. What are your opinions on this? We rarely see Elspeth in the Zoo deck, but the Japanese seem to like it. She can win the game on her own, and can be cast on turn 3 with Hierarch's help. This deck controls the board/attack step like no other deck in Legacy. Does Elspeth further this deck's dominance in that department?

Elspeth, Knight-Errant can work in Zoo. I've seen it played as a singleton in a couple top eight zoo lists this year. However, most lists avoid it. I think that four mana is the biggest problem. Zoo doesn't play a ton of lands and they are nearly all non-basic. With all the mana denail in this format, it is not easy to get the necessary mana for Elspeth. If you did play it, you could want it in a more mid-range version of zoo with 22 lands and access to basics. You certainly wouldn't play her in a deck that ran Fireblast.

[jandax]

Here's a question for those pro- and opponents of Big Zoo:

given the good and bad matchups of traditional naya zoo, in which ways does big zoo improve and hurt said matches? Given the answer to that question, would a transitional sideboard cover those bases?

[Sigar]

Big Zoo is obv better against fair decks like the mirror, but much worse against decks with bombs (natural order etc.) and any combo deck, cause of the reduced ability to race asap. If your meta is not infested with stuff like that, I would say Planeswalkers, Ranger of Eos and the likes, are pretty good to beat the fair decks.

[dsg123456789]

What can I sideboard against Sneak Attach/SnT? I have a few of these in my meta and 2 slots in my boards. I've already got 4x Mindbreak Trap and 4x Faerie Macabre, along with 3 Grips and 2 StP. The biggest issue is Emrakul. Karakas seems good with KotR, but are there any other options?

[troopatroop]

Big Zoo is obv better against fair decks like the mirror, but much worse against decks with bombs (natural order etc.) and any combo deck, cause of the reduced ability to race asap. If your meta is not infested with stuff like that, I would say Planeswalkers, Ranger of Eos and the likes, are pretty good to beat the fair decks.

I'm glad you brought this up, but I don't like your example. Natural Order needs a creature to Sac and we're pretty good at preventing that in the first place. But your point is valid, and warrants discussion. Fast Zoo has better combo matchups, decks that aren't looking to interact. A quick goldfish is better against those decks, but I don't think Big Zoo is without solutions. I'm going to try the slight blue splash with Hierarch and play Meddling Mage in the SB. He happens to be the BEST hate bear at the moment, pushing out Gaddock Teeg imo. With Mystical Tutor gone, combo players can't just tutor up an answer to him, and he hits EVERY deck that is going for something unfair. Life from the Loam, Natural Order, Charbelcher, Ad Nauseam, Show and Tell, Survival of the Fittest, Pernicious Deed, Hypergenesis, whatever. He also names STP against some decks, and that's really good imo. I think he adds alot out of the SB, especially against the decks that are faster than this one. The 2/2 body attatched with him also helps. I know I'm not going to convert many people over to running 1 trop and 1 volcanic, but do you see the appeal?

[CorpT]

If you don't want to play a quick goldfish style Zoo deck, why not just run Survival? Survival + Squee + Anger = 6 cards that will guarantee you a creature with haste every single turn. It also opens you up to more interesting sideboard options that you can tutor for.

[Sigar]

Because SotF is mana intensive as hell and requires at least 4 mana dudes in your 60. One of the upsides about zoo is also it's consistency, so you don't wanna be jaming sucky topdecks into it, like birds of paradise, anger, squee, etc.

I think the best approach is to be playing the good one drops, the good burn, the good removal and then something like Ranger of Eos to reload and get you back into the game if your opponent stabilizes.

Meddling Mage is pretty good, especially since Mindbreak Trap got a lot worse due to Mystical Tutor getting banned. Running something like Meddling Mage + Negate in the SB is something I had decent success with.

[Damnosus]

@CorpT: I would love to run survival, but the main reason I never would is because I don't want to shell out money for a loyal retainers. Without the Loyal Retainers+Iona combo, I don't think survival is quite as good. Though I am curious as to how well vengevine might work in a survival zoo deck...

@Show and Tell combo decks: one thought that i have had recently regarding siding options against decks running Show and Tell, is to maybe run a couple of humilities in the board. They flip an Emrukul, you flip a humility. Ok so now all your guys are 1/1's, but you have way more of them, plus you have burn.

Additionally, instead of a blue splash for Meddling Mage, maybe a black splash for Diabolic Edict? Again, this is more for show and tell/sneak attack (not storm combo). Just a thought though. You could also throw confidant into the mix.

[CorpT]

@CorpT: I would love to run survival, but the main reason I never would is because I don't want to shell out money for a loyal retainers. Without the Loyal Retainers+Iona combo, I don't think survival is quite as good. Though I am curious as to how well vengevine might work in a survival zoo deck...

I own Retainer and didn't play him in my Survival Zoo deck at Columbus. IMO, the way to run Survival in Zoo is to just make it a Zoo deck with Survival thrown in. Don't try to add janky combos, just the 6 cards I suggested. If you start adding Iona/Retainer, you're going to get some really weak draws you don't want to see. With just Squee/Anger, the draws aren't as bad and actually usable without Survival. It could be that Iona/Retainer could be in the board, but MD, I think keeping it simple and just a Zoo deck with 6 extra cards is the way to go.

[Sigar]

@Show and Tell combo decks: one thought that i have had recently regarding siding options against decks running Show and Tell, is to maybe run a couple of humilities in the board. They flip an Emrukul, you flip a humility. Ok so now all your guys are 1/1's, but you have way more of them, plus you have burn.

It must be like a 1000 times better to play journey to nowhere or oblivion ring.

[Damnosus]

Normally I would agree, but Journey to Nowhere/O Ring don't hit Progenitus. Plus I guess on a minor note, Humility allows you to kill the creature if they bounce/destroy the enchantment.

[Sigar]

You have to realize you are playing HUMILITY in a zoo sb. That has to be the most narrow slot ever. At least the other cards are useful against other decks.

[Damnosus]

Oh yea no kidding. I mean it was just a suggestion. In metas with a lot of sneak attack/show and tell it might actually be viable because it basically neuters their deck. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it even gets around ones that play Woodfall Primus (god humility is confusing). Ultimately though, it was just an idea; just trying to get the creative juices flowing. Sadly I can't test otherwise I would give you a more thorough analysis of the idea.

[lordofthepit]

One problem with Zoo or any deck that doesn't run sufficient disruption is that it is cold to fast combo. The previous top combo decks (Tendrils storm and Reanimator) were slightly unfavorable matchups for Zoo, but at least they were somewhat dependent on their life totals, and with two attacks and a couple of Bolts, you could put them in a position where they couldn't safely cast Ad Nauseam, Doomsday, or Reanimate.

Moreover, there were a variety of ways to slow them down after sideboarding, in the form of Gaddock Teeg, Ethersworn Canonist, Chalice of the Void, Mindbreak Trap, Thorn of Amethyst (against Storm) and various forms of graveyard hate against Reanimator. Moreover, most of these hate cards could also be boarded in against other decks, so they weren't simply narrow cards that took up precious sideboard slots.

Unfortunately, against various Show and Tell decks, I think the only feasible option for Zoo is to race--which has become a lot harder now that they can drop a 15/15 that blows up all your permanents--or to splash blue for Meddling Mage. I think the sideboard options are somewhat flawed. Oblivion Ring is actually castable and can be played off Show and Tell to deal with Emrakul and Iona, but doesn't do anything against Progenitus (or against an army of Hypergenesis creatures). Humility is not something you can reasonably expect to play and actually negatively affects your board presence if you tried playing it preemptively. Karakas is an answer to Emrakul and Iona (but again, not Progenitus), but I wouldn't count on getting Knight of the Reliquary on turn 3 into a Karakas on turn 4; I think you're better off just racing.

[menace13]

Narrow cards for cheat into play fatties are Tariff and Retribution of the Meek.
Even Ensnaring Bridge would be better over Humility to play more like a burn deck; hardcast turn 3 , keeps Lavamancer and KotR active.

[jandax]

Those are all fine answers to specific problems, guys, but this is the Naya Zoo thread. Is there anything else outside of U/B that we can use to mitigate those problems?

[Damnosus]

@Lordofthepit: very good analysis. Combo is scarier than ever for us not because it is faster, but because it is no longer dependent on life totals.

So how do we adapt to this? How could Zoo evolve so that it will still have a game against the Fatty Combos that are becoming popular without losing ground against the plethora of blue based aggro/control and control decks which will emerge due to the recent GP results?

So far there seems to be three ideas (please let me know if there are any more):

1: pack sideboard hate and hope for the best. I do like the ensnaring Bridge idea a bit-though it slows everything waaaay down.

2: go more midrange. Not really sure what this solves. From what I hear, it helps with the mirror but other than that?

3: splash blue. Interesting idea, but I am afraid of what this would do to our manabase. Additionally, it feels like it would make the deck lose focus, like when countertop started trying to battle zoo: first it was splashing for firespout, then it was all about NO+PRO, then they did both, then a couple of other things. It looks like they have figured it out, but it was pretty confusing for a while.

I am honestly not really sure where to take it. But zoo is definitely in need of a bit of a revamp in order to maintain its high office in the legacy deck hierarchy.

[BantFTW]

Been top 8 today because I thought there woul be alot of aggro, and I was right^^...
Euhm, the best thing against TEs and stuff is the white leyline I think atm.
Turn one for free or turn four.

But that's just my opinnion :D

[Valtrix]

I disagree. Without a means to clear the board, empty the warrens route will still just kill us. Pretty much all storm combo is going to go Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens in that case, and I don't think that we can race so many goblins. I love that it can't be duressed or stopped by orim's chant, but since storm combo still has empty the warrens, that route isn't going to work. (And they can always Infernal tutor -> Burning Wish -> empty the warrens, so they will be able to get itl)

[keys]

Took 3rd at a 24(?) man tourney today with this list:

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Kird Ape
2 Figure of Destiny
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Woolly Thoctar (These were going to be Knights, but I couldn't find any before the tourney. It actually helped because maindeck Relic would've neutered the Knight on at least one occasion.)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path To Exile
3 Lightning Helix

2 Sylvan Library

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Blood Moon (didn't get to try this, but I was expecting New Horizons and Lands)
3 Tormod's Crypt (wanted to have one Wheel of Sun and Moon, but couldn't find one)
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Round one vs. Dredge my opponent mulled to 4 and couldn't get anything going. Game two went about 40 minutes and I didn't draw any graveyard hate. I removed 3 Bridges by burning my own Nacatl, but the next turn he flopped his 4th Bridge and 2 Narcomoebas. I had a Teeg in play but eventually got run over by Ichorids + tokens. Game 3 I Pyroblasted his Breakthrough to keep him from getting started.

Round two against Vengevine Combo I got blown out by his LD 0-2. Game one I broke a fetch while he was showing a Windswept Heath (I thought he was Elves or something) and got Stifled, then Wasted. Game 2 I foolishly kept a 1 land hand which slowed me down a bit. He had Survival both games, and was able to Daze and Stifle my Pridemages. Angry plants ate me.

Round three was the Zoo mirror ...don't remember much about this round but I won.

In round four I faced U/r/b Dreadstill. I think this went to three games, where I died to LD and Mishras game one, and fought back to win the next two with Grips and slow play. Game three I drew two Thoctars, which dodged Counterbalance, and I knew his only answers were Perish and E.E. I also drew at least 2 Goyfs but didn't play them because I didn't want to get swept by Perish. Grips EOT on his assembled CB/Top meant I could keep refilling the board after each sweep. I didn't see Noughts in any of the games; they might have been boarded out for Jace, which turned out to be too slow the one time it hit the board.

Last round was against the mirror again. Even though I drew first both games, I out-tempo'd him by burning the creatures he equipped with Jitte. I also drew more Paths, which made this easier. Figure beat for 4 a couple times, and as always Helix was key to staying out of burn range.

4-1 ended up placing 3rd on tie breakers. The deck felt pretty solid though I think I might drop a Chain for a third Canopy just to help out the manabase. I'll probably replace the Thoctars with Knights when I get the chance, but the difference in power is so minimal they're virtually equal. I only had one tricky moment trying to fight past two Mishras where Knight would've been better.

[Sigar]

@Lordofthepit: very good analysis. Combo is scarier than ever for us not because it is faster, but because it is no longer dependent on life totals.

So how do we adapt to this? How could Zoo evolve so that it will still have a game against the Fatty Combos that are becoming popular without losing ground against the plethora of blue based aggro/control and control decks which will emerge due to the recent GP results?

So far there seems to be three ideas (please let me know if there are any more):

1: pack sideboard hate and hope for the best. I do like the ensnaring Bridge idea a bit-though it slows everything waaaay down.

2: go more midrange. Not really sure what this solves. From what I hear, it helps with the mirror but other than that?

3: splash blue. Interesting idea, but I am afraid of what this would do to our manabase. Additionally, it feels like it would make the deck lose focus, like when countertop started trying to battle zoo: first it was splashing for firespout, then it was all about NO+PRO, then they did both, then a couple of other things. It looks like they have figured it out, but it was pretty confusing for a while.

I am honestly not really sure where to take it. But zoo is definitely in need of a bit of a revamp in order to maintain its high office in the legacy deck hierarchy.

1. Obviously you pack SB cards if you can't beat a certain deck, and if it's strongly represented where you play. That's kind of a no brainer. The key is to find the best card, that isn't useless in other MUs, since the format is so diverse.

2. Going midrange solves nothing against decks that tries to cheat fatties into play, nor against combo. This is only a smart choice if there's a lot of fair decks in your meta like Zoo, Rock and Bant.

3. Why would adding 3 blue duals for SB cards make the deck lose focus? The manabase concern is legit, but the wasteland MUs are already good (Goblins and Merfolk). It's called 'adapting', not 'losing focus'.

[jnosrati]

Took 4th at the samer tournament as keys (above) with this list
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 loam lion

4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 knight

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Path To Exile
3 Lightning Helix
3pop
2 gaddock teeg
1 Sylvan Library
1 jitte



4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 fairie macabre( awesome versus vengevine)
1 pop
2 tormods crypt
1 red elemental blast
1 oblivion ring (enemy emrakuls)
1 jitte

i hated jitte all day. i think im going to just have jitte in board for enemy jitte's coming out of merfolk and such. i really hated jitte. totally loses to mirror

round 1: r/b goblins-it went quickly 2:0
round 2: dreadstill : he stifles my fetch, next turn he played dreadnaught, forgot he used the stifle. i felt bad because hes my friend. beatdown the other game 2:0
round 3: u/g madness. gp list exactly, he mulliganed a lot, game one was tough, game 2 lots of mulligans. good stuff. i like the deck, seems like it should be a tougher matchup. he relly did mulligan agressively(what do you guys think about the mu? i felt like i could bring in my whole board here...
round 4: eva green 2:1 game 1 i get path, hgame 2 i dont, game 3 he mulls to 6 and keeps a one wasteland hand. gg
round 5 i played the above decklist. I got wrecked. 0-2
Thanks for coming bryan :]p
really though, hope to see you soon.

[Brizentine Empire]

At Gencon 2010 this past weekend, I played in the Friday Preliminary for the Legacy World Champs and took Second with the following list:

Maindeck- 60 cards

Lands- 22
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy

Creatures- 21
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells- 17
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast

Sideboard- 15 cards
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Umezawa's Jitte

I lost to Korhall Control in the top 2, which is an abysmal matchup for Zoo. Still, not a bad finish for a 45-ish man tournament. Thought people might want to see lists!

And yes, Bloodbraid Elf, as it provides immediate card advantage as opposed to Sylvan Library. It's also a house in the Mirror Match, as I was 3-0 against in that tournament. Overrall, I want to try Elspeth in that spot as well, but I was very happy with the Elf's performance.

[Valtrix]

You know Emrakul has protection from colored spells ;) thx for a good tourney

Good thing oblivion ring is a triggered ability then?


And yes, Bloodbraid Elf, as it provides immediate card advantage as opposed to Sylvan Library. It's also a house in the Mirror Match, as I was 3-0 against in that tournament. Overrall, I want to try Elspeth in that spot as well, but I was very happy with the Elf's performance.

I highly disagree with this choice. In some sense bloodbraid elf is "immediate", but at the same time elf costs 4, which seems pretty terrible. Additionally, elf is nowhere near the type of card advantage as library, as library lets you out card advantage and plain outdraw your opponent. What makes library particularly useful is that after an initial assault of creatures it finds you additional burn to finish the deal. It's this card which anything seeking to defeat zoo fears: decks can deal with us normally, but when we get 3 cards plus selection for the rest of the game (or even more cards if our life can afford it), it's very difficult for a lot of decks to recover from that. Elf might be "better" in the mirror, but library gives you the card quality over time that you need, which is far more important in my opinion. Also, elf -> path just sucks if there's no opposing creatures. Lastly, library works wonders with steppe lynx. In fact, it's so good I'm thinking even of increasing to 3 of them, like 12th place Alix Hatfield did from Grand Prix Columbus.

[keys]

Good thing oblivion ring is a triggered ability then?

Interesting. Guess I should've looked into the ruling on this first >.<

[from Cairo]

And yes, Bloodbraid Elf, as it provides immediate card advantage as opposed to Sylvan Library. It's also a house in the Mirror Match, as I was 3-0 against in that tournament. Overrall, I want to try Elspeth in that spot as well, but I was very happy with the Elf's performance.

Elspeth, Jitte, and Sylvan Library all seem like much better late-game reach cards. Even though BBE is a 2 for 1, at 4 mana the effect just seems not game winning enough.

[Brizentine Empire]

I've thouroughly tested both Sylvan Library (for many months, actually) and Elf. I posted my list that I finished 2nd with in a larger event, knowing that this terrible forum would most likely declare one card strictly better than another based on other people's thoughts and findings. People allow for zero innovation or the use of cards that are slightly outside the realm of "tier 1," and its very frustrating, to be honest. I guess I'll just copy Alix Hatfield because he's a known deckbuilder and his ideas will strictly be better than mine.

[Valtrix]

I've thouroughly tested both Sylvan Library (for many months, actually) and Elf. I posted my list that I finished 2nd with in a larger event, knowing that this terrible forum would most likely declare one card strictly better than another based on other people's thoughts and findings. People allow for zero innovation or the use of cards that are slightly outside the realm of "tier 1," and its very frustrating, to be honest. I guess I'll just copy Alix Hatfield because he's a known deckbuilder and his ideas will strictly be better than mine.

I'm sorry, but this is a very poor defense of your card choices. It's not that we're saying that you're wrong in choosing a particular card to try. However, we offered our opinions on cards that might perform better, and gave explanations as to why. As far as I can see, you have a very brief explanation to a very atypical card choice. When you offer a "Here's my list that placed, I think this card is better so I played it," don't be surprised when people question your choices. It's not that innovation is stifled, but it is when the discussion about cards ceases to progress.

Also, if we're not using our thoughts and findings to determine which cards work best, what else would we be using to determine that? As far as mentioning other deckbuilders, it's not about saying that somebody is better than another. It's only further support to an idea that somebody might have. In my case, I was thinking about running 3 libraries and as such cited somebody who likewise tried the same. That's when other people's findings come into play: When they support your own ideas, then you have a little more evidence for them.

[BantFTW]

The list I've played and top 8'ed this weekend:

Lands- 20
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah

Creatures- 21
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary (the third was first a sylvan library, idk library is awesome but as one off :?, and 3 knight is to much so I need to test it)
3 stoneforge mystic (maybe 3 is to much)
3 grim lavamancer

Spells- 19
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
1 swords to plowshares
3 Lightning Helix
2 jitte
2 elspeth
2 searing blaze (wasn't good enough, replaced it with 2 fireblast after the tournament)
1 basilisk collar (a bomb with lavamancer and just with every card)

I think knight ain't good enough if you got a lavamancer^^, but with fireblast it would be OK I think.
Also some tricks with collar are very good.
If I quit a kotr and a mystic I got 2 spots left for sylvan library, but I need to test it so I let you guys know.

on to the tournament report: (27 peeps)

Round 1, Merfolk:
First game he raises me when I'm landscrewed, game 2 he was manascrewed.
Game 3 I got a sick hand: goyf,pte, bolt, lavamancer, taiga, fetch, nacatl.
Ofcourse I also draw an elpseth and bam I win :D

Round 2: Death and Taxes with green
Game 1 I win because he has't much bout a goyf and I kill it and yeah...
Game 2 he goes turn 1 vial, 2 mystic and get's sword of light and shadow, kotr, kotr en another goyf lol, gg :D
Game 3 I go nacatl, he goes vial. I go lavamancer, he goes stoneforge. Then I go qasali into vial. So on, I draw 3 qasali and kill his sword of light and shadow, vial and sword of fire and ice^^ I lose eventually from 2 kotr.

Round 3: Bant
I don't know anything accept he has an active jitte and I play my own and race him with a goyf and kotr.
Game 2 he has manascrew and I've got a choke so that was gg :P

Round 4: Against my teammate, I offer a draw but he wants to play so let's do this^^
I know what he plays so I keep my PTE's and go very hard game 1, he plays alot and hexmage-depths combo.
I race him.
Game 2 he got's his depths and I can't remove it, but I got an elspeth and waiting untill he attacks because he had 4 life (I burned everything on him so^^) so I had one beast and played elspeth and attacked and won.

Round 5: Merfolk
I draw bcs I didn't know what he was playing lol (number 1)
Than we play and I win with 2-0 easy hehe^^

Top 8 I just lost 2 times from a progenitus bcs I didn't had any wing shards in the side (forgot it haha :P)

[Rizso]

Barely ever encounter a real problem between the Lavamancer and Knight. If looks bad on papper but it barely every happends in a real game. Both cards are to good to cut of. I play 3 knights as well, I think playing 3 Stoneforge is 1 to many when you only use Jitte and the collar as your equipments. I use 2 Stoneforge 1 jitte, 1 sofi, 1 sols and extra stoneforge in the board with an extra Jitte and a collar. Love the Stoneforge package. Bit slower then 20 spells versions but more treats and the protection given by the swords are very useful.

[jandax]

So that means you have time to set all that up? Just curious

[hungryLIKEALION]

Got second today at TOGIT's Recall tournament with Survival Zoo. List and Report to follow.

But as a teaser, the matchups...

2-1 MonoRedSligh
2-0 MonoUFolk
2-1 Zoo
2-1 Deadguy Ale
ID
ID
Quarters:2-0 Zoo
Semis:2-1 UBFolk
Finals:1-2 Natural Order Elves. Still reeling.

[IrishLegend]

Can you post your list please?

[jandax]

Second sentence in, he says List and Report to come.

wow.

[Grillo]

I just won a 24-ish ppl event yesterday with big zoo!
Here is the list (it has been posted before) and a micro-report:

// Lands
1 [U] Savannah
1 [OD] Plains (3)
1 [RAV] Forest (2)
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [U] Plateau
2 [U] Taiga
2 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [RAV] Lightning Helix
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre

round 1: Death'n Taxes (green splash) Win 2-1
G1: Tough game. Tarmos + Mother of Runes are really annoying. Eventually Swords + Knight + Elspeth get there.
G2: He has Kitchen Finks this time joining the utility creatures. Some Mangara of Corondor tricks plus a horde of creatures kill me rather quickly.
G3: I Wasteland his lands and Grip his Vials. I kill him in short order.

1-0

round 2: U/G survival madness. Win 2-1
G1: I don't have an answer for his early Survival and I die turn 3 killed by flying Vengevines.
G2: He gets a Game Loss for bad deck registering. Lucky me.
G3: I sideboard Grips, Faeries and Crypts. I get to Grip a Survival. I Remove from the game a Vengevine and some Wild Mongrels and he can't get the engine going again. A big Knight gets there.

2-0

round 3: Zoo. Lost 1-2
G1: I basically can´t keep up with the constant stream of creatures. I lose. I really thought that the "mirror" should be easy for me. The result gets me a bit sad.
G2: I don't sideboard anything. I'm sure I should be able to beat Zoo with the main deck. This time I manage to do it.
G3: He beats me again. I just don't draw enough removal or threats. :(

2-1

round 4: Led-less Dredge. Win 2-0
G1: He mulligans to 5. I keep my initial 7. He starts playing a City of Brass. I Wasteland. He then does nothing. I win fast with a Knight.
G2: I side in Teegs, Faeries and Crypts. I draw a Crypt and 2 Faeries in my initial 7. He starts with Cabal Therapy naming naming Relic of Progenitus (fail). I play land, Crypt. He get his dredging started but I remove some creatures from the game (Path to Exile was great ;) and use my Crypt when needed. Knight does his thing again.

3-1

round 5: Merfolk. ID
This guy always plays Merfolk. His deck is very tight and he is a very good player. Luckily we agree to ID and we go to the top8.

3-1-1

TOP8

round 6: Ug Merfolk. Win 2-0
G1: He never gets into the game. I control the board and Hierarchs + Knight beat him to death.
G2: More of the same.

quarter finals: Eva Green. Win 2-1
G1: Tight game. But I get to control the game with planeswakers.
G2: I mull to 4!! I play land Nacatl. He plays land. I play land. He plays Hymn to Tourach! :S And I go into top deck mode.
It was a long game and I almost won it!! But in the end he had too much removal.
G3: I win playing turns.

finals: Merfolk. Win 2-1
This is the guy I ID with.
G1: I win fairly easy with big threats.
G2: He beats me. I make some mistakes out of tiredness and he doesn't forgive that.
G3: Long game. Swords and planeswalkers get me there.

WIN the tournament!!
I got two foil Natural Orders and a foil Burning Wish for my troubles.
Great tourney. Great deck.


By far the best tech are the Hierarchs and Knights. They win games.
Also planeswalkers are great recovering from bad situations when the game goes long.

[sauce]

a "zoo" deck w/o lightning bolts... i think its more like naya midrange than zoo.

[Grillo]

a "zoo" deck w/o lightning bolts... i think its more like naya midrange than zoo.


Well, I commented before that this deck might not be a Zoo deck any more.
But I feel that the discussion should start here anyway.

[Nelis]

Also planeswalkers are great recovering from bad situations when the game goes long.

Let me start off to concratulate you on your result.

I'm in doubt a bit when it comes to above statement. Not that they're bad cards (not at all) but is it not so that because of the high casting costs of these cards and the way the deck is constructed you enter games that go long more often? In other words if you would play a fast list with more burn you wouldn't get to the long game and thus there would be no need for those cards in the first place.

Now on a totally different subject. I have been playing UWT for a while and I've grown very fond of its sideboard which utilizes an Enlightened Tutor toolbox.
Since combo decks have been slowed down by the banning of Mystical Tutor I have the feeling it's worth running anti combo cards again in Zoo's sidebard. So I have started constructing a different type of sideboard with this in mind. At the moment its still in its concept stage:

3 Enlightened Tutor

1 Wheel of Sun And Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Gaddock Teeg

3 Krosan Grip

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Path To Exile

What do you think? (about the card choices and/or about the concept in general)

[Valtrix]

I actually like the idea of an enlightened tutor board quite a bit, as I've tried such things in the past not with zoo, but other decks. My only concern with the Enlightened Tutor Board is that it might cost too much tempo. Say versus dredge turn 1 enlightened tutor into wheel sucks up our first two turns of mana. Likewise against combo, and they can still wish for answers. That said, since we have a very aggressive deck it's very likely that this type of board would work very well.

I think the GY hate is too much, since I'd rather get wheel to shut them down completely, or crypt for tempo, and relic is pretty meh in general when we have lavamancers, goyfs, and knights. Plus I think that much hate is unnecessary.

Two combo hate targets seem good. I like canonist and I like having a second target with thorn. I'm not sure about Teegs in the board. I've generally just hated them whenever I've played them, main or not.

Also, the board should have at least one blood moon. It'd be nice to have outs to lands.

I think the tutor board is most effective vs. dredge, combo, and lands. I'm not sure that there's back-breaking enchantments or artifacts in other colors. Perhaps you could find room for a choke, but I'm not sure you want to be boarding in tutors and a choke in blue MUs. It may be necessary against good blue control decks, but I'm not sure.

That said, I'd probably run a base of:

3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of sun and moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amythyst
1 Blood moon
(8 slots for the tutor part)

2 Krosan Grip
2 Duergar Hedge Mage
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Magus of the moon

Leaving 7 "regular" sideboard cards. I filled it in with things that I tend to run, but You could use them for whatever else you'd like.

[hungryLIKEALION]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18560-Survival-Zoo-wins-Moat-at-TOGIT-8-14-10&p=481631

Report/List are up, as promised. Will happily answer questions here or there.

[lordofthepit]

LNow on a totally different subject. I have been playing UWT for a while and I've grown very fond of its sideboard which utilizes an Enlightened Tutor toolbox.

I think an Enlightened Tutor toolbox is a great idea. I'm leaning towards building my maindeck to destroy "fair" decks (like the mirror, Merfolk, and Goblins), while loading the sideboard with toolbox hate. I'm thinking of adding an Ensnaring Bridge (for the Show and Tell type decks) and a Pithing Needle (which is always handy game 2 when you know what to target early and can find your Needle with ET).

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Since my meta is going back to traditional Counterbalance control, I'm thinking about cutting Lightning Helix and adding 3x Ancient Grudge, and 1x Teeg or something of that sort. This may not seem very optimal for an overall metagame, but in one where Counterbalance is always half the room, it seems the way to go. Plus I'm kinda not liking Lightning Helix as much as I used to, and there isn't very much true aggro so it seems like the right call.

Also, after playing Dragon Stompy for a good two months in tournaments, I wanna develop some sort of BloodMoon/Zoo list. It seems far fetched but I have seen the power of Blood Moon over and over again, and kinda wanna "innovate". So people with constructive comments about BloodZoo would be greatly appreciate.

[Nelis]

I think an Enlightened Tutor toolbox is a great idea. I'm leaning towards building my maindeck to destroy "fair" decks (like the mirror, Merfolk, and Goblins), while loading the sideboard with toolbox hate. I'm thinking of adding an Ensnaring Bridge (for the Show and Tell type decks) and a Pithing Needle (which is always handy game 2 when you know what to target early and can find your Needle with ET).

Personally I wouldn't want to cloud my sideboard with too many targets. I would focus on the really tough match-ups (combo) and make use of other solutions against the other decks. For instance I wouldn't put in Aura of Silence because it's tutor-able but would stick to Krosan Grip because its better.




I think the GY hate is too much, since I'd rather get wheel to shut them down completely, or crypt for tempo, and relic is pretty meh in general when we have lavamancers, goyfs, and knights. Plus I think that much hate is unnecessary.

Two combo hate targets seem good. I like canonist and I like having a second target with thorn. I'm not sure about Teegs in the board. I've generally just hated them whenever I've played them, main or not.



I think you have to take into account that you rather draw the hate than that you tutor for it. Also it is possible that they have an answer for your graveyard hate so you need to increase the chance of drawing or tutoring for another piece of hate.

I would maybe be inclined to make use of 2 Enlightened Tutors and add a hate piece for each match up. That takes one slot more but I feel that it is important to have enough hate to battle those match-ups because otherwise its of no use and we could just as well not run any combo hate.

Also, if I compare this deck to UWT we also miss a way to counter spells so that means we need more hate that those decks that also run counter-suite.

I've been a great fan of Teeg but it all depends on taste and metagame I guess.

@ Loxodon: I think if you want to go for a Bloodzoo deck RG sligh might be a better option. If you want to go three colors, you probably want to make use of Noble Hierarch. Maybe you should make red the third color so you can basically go for (simplyfied) plains, Loam Lion, forest Pridemage, mountain Blood Moon.

[Ecoris]

Stompy for a good two months in tournaments, I wanna develop some sort of BloodMoon/Zoo list. It seems far fetched but I have seen the power of Blood Moon over and over again, and kinda wanna "innovate". So people with constructive comments about BloodZoo would be greatly appreciate. I guess you are already famailiar with "Blood Zoo" or "BB Zoo" from the old extended. Otherwise: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=33131

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Yeah I was thinking I would have to run more basics and runs Hierarch, and I would wanna keep it three colors. It would slow down my build that's "slower" than the sligh variants, but I would wanna play it anyway. Plus, I wanted to go the whole slower more control-ish route instead of a sligh version. It would remind me almost of standard Naya but without the cuteness factor of BBElf or any of that expensive stuff.

[Dark Ritual]

Aura of silence doubles as both combo hate and enchantment/artifact removal. It also cripples enchantress pretty hardcore, one of this decks more troublesome MUs. Aura of silence makes combo's LED's, chrome moxen, and lotus petals pretty bad, especially if they cannot make enough mana with rituals to combo off or are relying on casting AN with no mana floating after spending 3BB. But it is a little slow being 3 mana. An e. tutor toolbox is appropriate for some metagames but the real question is, what MUs does it improve? Is it worth the tempo loss/card disadvantage? Why is this approach to the SB better than more 'traditional' SB approach?

[BantFTW]

What do you guys think about the 3/2 can't be target of spells or ability's target opponent controls and regenerate 2 over knight of the reliquary.
I played against a zoo deck with it and lost all the games almost on him so...
I think that's a quite good card if you ask me?
What do you guys think?

About my sideboard, it's like this:
3x choke
3x REB
2x krosan grip
3x relic of progenitus
4x leyline of sancity

but I need room for 3 gaddock teegs so what I would cut?
Was thinking of 2x grip and & leyline of sancity?

Lemme know

[Nelis]

I think its worth against the real combo decks like AN variants & Dredge. Especially against Dredge we need a turn 2 (or 1) hate piece. AN give us some more time but I wouldn't want to wait too long. I think that against these decks the Tempo loss/card disadvantage is definitely worth it.

Personally I'm willing to ignore Enchantress. Of all the time that I play of Legacy I only encountered that deck once or twice. But if its part of someones meta-game then why not put 1 or 2 in the board.


What do you guys think about the 3/2 can't be target of spells or ability's target opponent controls and regenerate 2 over knight of the reliquary.
I played against a zoo deck with it and lost all the games almost on him so...
I think that's a quite good card if you ask me?
What do you guys think?

Troll Ascetic you man? It seems a bit slow and the GG can be a problem, especially when facing a deck with wastelands. Knight of the Reliquary can swing for a lot of damage. Did the deck also run Jitte?

[BantFTW]

yes jitte and collar, collar is a great card...
And kotr is just a PTE and it's gone so idk ^^

[CorpT]

What do you guys think about the 3/2 can't be target of spells or ability's target opponent controls and regenerate 2 over knight of the reliquary.
I played against a zoo deck with it and lost all the games almost on him so...
I think that's a quite good card if you ask me?
What do you guys think?


I've played Troll Ascetic before and he is unbelieavbly slow and mana consuming. I wouldn't recommend him. Yes, he can be a problem with Jitte and/or Collar, but that is a lot of mana tied up in one, ok-ish creature.

[BantFTW]

okej than I stay with kotr-fireblast :D

[jandax]

Your dudes are gonna die, that's why it sucks to open a hand wiht KOTR/goyf in it in most cases. Getting in there with kitties for some damage, then dropping fat will usually always get you there. And if they hold removal for your fat, the lil one's are still doing their job so it's not so bad.

[hungryLIKEALION]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16594-hungryLIKEALION-s-tournament-report-collection/page2

New report, top 4 The Portal in a ~30 person tournament for a From The Vault:Relics. Back to a more traditional build, but I really liked it. Played a lot of good games today.

[BantFTW]

This is my new list after some tournements:

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight Of The Reliquary
2 stoneforge mystic
20

4 Lightning Bolt
2 flame slash --> great against all creatures and also kills RWM (really good card, it doesn't damage on a player but it's good)
2 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast
4 Path to Exile
1 swords to plowshares (I like an extra stp instead of a lightning helix bcs that it destroys much more)
2 elspeth (this is a bomb and a win against counterbalance decks)
1 jitte
1 SOFI (my meta is full of, gobblins zoo and merfolk and bant, so there it's really good against)
1 sylvan library (for late game if you don't make it, and also good in general)
20

3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
20

SB: (so many graveyard-hate bcs of quite some decks in our meta and keep losing from them so)
3 Choke
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 relic of progenitus
1 ravenous trap
3 gaddock teeg
2 price of progress

Played 2 tournaments with this list: 1 top 8 and the other 15th :(
But yeah if you got questions ask them.
ty

Ps: I really don't know why you guys like steppe lynx so much, he's really a death card in mid and late game lol?

[jandax]

You don't know why Lynx is good because you've never played with him. Knights turn it on in the mid/late game, simply playing fetchlands frugally turns it on mid/late game. The possibility of attacking for 4/5 on turn two far outweighs the benefits of a mana intensive SFM package, IMHO. I'm sure others will reluctantly chime in on the lynx debate, but it distills down to speed or stability. Which does the player prefer?

[BantFTW]

okej, than I'm going to test it.
But, what's the right number to play than?
And lynx + kotr is also quite good don't you think :O?

[keys]

You don't know why Lynx is good because you've never played with him. Knights turn it on in the mid/late game, simply playing fetchlands frugally turns it on mid/late game. The possibility of attacking for 4/5 on turn two far outweighs the benefits of a mana intensive SFM package, IMHO. I'm sure others will reluctantly chime in on the lynx debate, but it distills down to speed or stability. Which does the player prefer?

Lynx may be twice as big on the attack sometimes, but it's still a 0/1 on defense almost always. 2/3 blockers are important in a lot of matchups, from Goblins to Ichorid. That's why I still play Kird Ape.

[BantFTW]

yeah, tested them a little on this midday and I don't think I want them instead of something else^^
they die to fast.

[troopatroop]

Srry Bant, but your decklist is weaksauce. You play Elspeth with only 20 lands and 0 Noble Hierarch, which is just slow and bad. You play Flame Slash which is alot worse than you make it sound. Lightning Helix is clunky. Jitte is really a 4 drop and SOFI a 5drop, and all on 20 Lands. Wasteland cripples you. You play Fireblast and only 4 1drop creatures beaters. The random STP is random. Why do people think SFM is good enough for this deck? I hate equipment, losing your creature in response to the equip is so huge.

Where is Chain Lightning?
Where is Kird Ape/Loam Lion?

I just feel like it's seriously lacking in focus.

[jandax]

Not picking here, but it honestly seems like a player wanting to be original and making a few changes to an established archetype to call their own. If that's what a player wants out of the game then more power to them. HOwever, hocking a list that's no where near a honed deck is sort of naive. Play with the proven lists first, then make changes for stronger cards for a specific metagame/tournament. Being honest with oneself is really the only way to become a better player.

[BantFTW]

It really ain't a bad list, tested it soo much.
I never lose against gobblins, merfs and zoo (sometimes but yeah).
Problems are combo (ofc), and graveyard^^.
But elspeth helps there alot, and no it isn't to slow.
The flame slash were just a test, would replace that with chain lightnings or searing blaze.

could also put in loam lions/kird apes but don't really need them.
I've got 7 1-drops. Seems enough.
I've played the original list but I like mine more.

Okej, I think your way to traditional.
Test some more things...
Like chains, they are good but sorcery, and I don't like that so I play things with other ability's that
are 2cmc and gife you life or do damage at a player.

[Rico Suave]

I've got 7 1-drops. Seems enough.


It's really not. If you double this number, you will have enough.

[BantFTW]

4 lions and 4 kird apes or what lol?
Serious, steppe lynx is a pritty death card if you don't have it before turn 3^^
lions and kird apes are oké but yeah.
I'll try them.

[jandax]

You don't seem to get it. I was, and still am, being objective and pointing out that through shared experience, there exists one or more lists that are well honed enough to pick up as is and win. Deviating from those lists can be both good and bad.

You don't know what list I have, I doubt you took the time to look back a few pages to check it out.

My logic was that you "liking" cards doesn't make them good in the deck. I am skeptical about your results against easy matchups and the mirrow, as you contradict yourself by saying you don't actually lose to them but not really (paraphrasing). In what way does an Elspeth help against Combo and Dredge? Lots of your claims aren't backed up, therefore a lot of people aren't going to take your comments seriously.

Furthermore, the reason I suggested Lynx is that while it has the potential to be a dead card often enough like a few other cards in the deck, the strength it gives to the start of the game shouldn't be overlooked or dismissed so easily. With the card in the deck, one must have a different mentality towards how the deck is to be played out against each matchup possible. A mulligan to 6 for a Lynx often enough hasn't been a bad move in my experience. I wouldn't ship back a Nacatl hand for a Lynx hand but the principle remains: ~10 damage by turn 4 will usually be game, any faster and its a lock. More often than not I have had turn 3 kills. I feel that in the metagame in which I play it is necessary to be speedy, and I also feel that same mind set can translate easily into any other metagame. Good luck.

[OldOD]

The steppe lynx argument honestly shouldnt even be an argument for those that have played with him. Ive heard so many times zoo players complain on turn 4 "oh my steppe lynx doesnt do anything now" after i had just saw them get in for 8 total on turns 2 and 3. except you paid one white for 8 damage if not more? not to mention alot of blue draws have to straight up Fow lynx. Maybe its just my meta, but with all the new herizons/ mana denial 21/22 land is probly right anyway. Steppe lynx is just the absolute nuts. Its really not dead in the mid and late game either, you never draw fetches? man i wish i could be that lucky. also if you do you just run them out there?

and bantftw no herizon canopy? that card is pretty silly with kotr, and just in general.

[jandax]

^^Those are all points I was tying into. People look at the card in a vacuum mindset and immediately write it off as weak. Also, simply changing mentality when playing withh Lynx will help the player utilize its strengths better by not just running out fetchlands for example. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Lynx lets your rip a land and be a hero. The card turns 1/3 of your deck into damage spells, essentially.

[BantFTW]

Okej, it's true maar the Elspeth is just good against all decks.
And is canopy than so good with kotr? Need to test it, probably yeah :P
And bout lynx, it's a good card but I don't like it so not playing it.
My deck is a littlebit slower but yeah, I like stoneforge alot.
And Jandax, I can't find your build, could you post a link?

ty

[Mark Sun]

For an always-changing metagame that has a high percentage of Goblins players (we had 2, almost 3 last week at our local if someone hadn't have switched last minute), how effective can Steppe Lynx be?

I gave the following list a shot; it was created in haste and does not have the best card choices, but I went 3-1 at our local this week with it. Basically took Hatfield's list and filled in the gaps of what we did not have within the team, for some reason no one had the fourth Lavamancer or Chokes for the SB.


// LANDS
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest/Mountain/Plains

// CREATURES
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
1 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Gaddock Teeg

// SPELLS
3 Sylvan Library
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast


// SIDEBOARD
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Karakas
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast


I hadn't seen Goblins in about two weeks there, so I didn't think to bring any tech against them. I read earlier in the thread that Pyroclasm is okay against them (or Fallout if Merfolk is present), so I will probably try that out next week. Steppe Lynx was subpar all day, but probably only because of my matchups.


I played the following Rounds:

R1) UGr CounterTop (Jace, Firespout, Goyf, Shackles) - Win 2-1 thanks to a well timed Krosan Grip freeing up the removal I had in my hand for his Goyfs and Pyroblasting a Jace after boards. g1 was pretty embarassing, I was on 2 land the entire game and he stole a Steppe Lynx with Shackles and beat my face in with it.

+3 Krosan Grip, +2 Pyroblast, -1 Gaddock Teeg, -4 Steppe Lynx


R2) BGW Nelson Rock + Elspeth - Win 2-1, lose g1 to a horrible punt when I glance at the Teeg on the board and think it's a Pridemage, I swing a dude right into a giant Knight, bolt it, and he activates it in response. I bring in my own Swords and Knights, and both games, burning him out after sticking a Sylvan Library/removing his dudes.

+2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Knight of the Reliquary, -4 Steppe Lynx


R3) RB Goblins - Lose 0-2, I keep shady 2-landers on the play each game and fail to see the next land. Had to pay 8 life with Sylvan Library in g2 to find a third land, by that time the game was pretty much over. Really needed a board sweeper.

+2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Knight of the Reliquary, -3 Steppe Lynx, -1 Gaddock Teeg


R4) RB Golbins - Win 2-1, different build but each game consists of the other drawing lands, with the victor being the person who drew less.

Boarding the same as in R3.



Basically the entire night I felt like Lynx was the weakest card in my deck against any of those matchups (except maybe the Rock matchup). What would you guys have boarded if you were in my position? Thanks for feedback.

[BantFTW]

I'm testing now the list you play but no lynx, instead loam lion/kird apes^^
So, they're pritty much better atm xD

gr

[Mark Sun]

I'm testing now the list you play but no lynx, instead loam lion/kird apes^^
So, they're pritty much better atm xD

gr

They're better on defense, I would agree for sure. One of those games against RB Goblins I had to throw Lynx under the bus to a Lackey (embarassing), which was unfortunate. I will at least be making the same changes for my metagame.

[CorpT]

And bout lynx, it's a good card but I don't like it so not playing it.
My deck is a littlebit slower but yeah, I like stoneforge alot.


So your argument against Lynx is that you don't like it. And your argument for Stoneforge is that you like it. A lot.

Got it. Moving on...

[BantFTW]

No, In my meta.
There aren't many fast decks.
Some merfolk, gobbs & zoo.
But those matchups are winable without it.
But against decks you don't know/bant,...
those equipments are reallty good and can win you the game^^

That's my opinnion, okej, they are a littlebit slow that's true but yeah.

[OldOD]

id agree that maybe lynx is worse in the merfolk/gobos matchup, but were very heavy favorites in those anyway, my main argument for lynx is that in our toss up matches hes rediculous and even lets us squeek out wins vs storm because our one drop went in for 8 (instead of 4 from a loam lion)

[OldOD]

also, if youre playing defense against goblins, youve probably already lost.

[keys]

also, if youre playing defense against goblins, youve probably already lost.

You still want to block Lackey.

[Curby]

@Morbid's meta: how would some Pyroclasms do? You'd have to consider switching out Lynxes for Apes so more of your army survives, but clasm seems like the sweeper you need. I wouldn't run Flamebreak et. al. because 3 damage will kill your team too, though depending on Goblins' tricks Volcanic Fallout's instant speed may make it superior. Hopefully your Pridemages are taking care of Vials and your Teeg is already sided out, so it further minimizes your exposure. I'd try them in the StP slots. Zoo already has plenty of point removal and direct damage, so add a sweeper instead of more 1-to-1 solutions. Just a thought. =)

[jandax]

@kirbysdl/Morbid: Try Fallout. It is extra uncounterable burn, sure it's 3cc but that's not a deal breaker, as by the time you have three mana you have a board to blow up. It shines in Folk as well. I've been happy wtih it, as even verses random stuff like Elves it is sweet to bring in.

@bantftw:

Here's my list off the top of my head. Build for my own metagame. YOu mentioned previously that there aren't a lot of fast decks iny our meta, so why the hell aren't you running lynx to take advantage of the slow scene??

4 Nacatl
4 Lynx
3 Lavamancer
4 Pridemage
4 Goyf
3 KotR
2 Mr. Teeg
4 Bolt
3 PoP
4 PtE
2 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast
1 Library

11 fetchlands
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

SB:

3 REB
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Choke
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Grip

Vs Goblins:
-3 Pop +3 Fallout on the play and draw. Lynx stays in because even on the draw being able to get in for 4+ on turn 2 is about the only way to get ahead. I'd mull into a burn hand or Nacatl/lynx hand
Vs Folk:
-3 Pop -2 Teeg -1 Library +3 REB +3 Choke
I'd do this on the play/draw regardless. Both are hoser cards in this matchup, and if they keep FoW in I'd side in two teegs for two lynx
vs Bant:
-4 Lynx -2 FB +3 Choke +3 Assuming they drop their FoWs, they'll still have EE's so Teeg stays in. Same with the Library, it really helps the tempo loss from Stifle/Daze/FoW
Vs Storm:
Pray, -3 KotR +3 Traps. I generally mull into Trap or keep a Teeg hand.
Vs Junk:
-2 Teeg -1 Library +3 Grip Maindeck is fast enough to get them w/in burn range, and the SFM package just slows them down.
Vs Elves!
-3 PoP -3 KotR +3 MTB +3 Fallout Teeg can keep them off NO or a lethal Banefire, and I generally mull into a MTB because they can't do much but play into it. Fallout is also pretty sweet
Vs Mirror:
Shuffle SB into library like with all other matchups but take the exact 15 back out. I've never played the mirror before and feel Lynx and playing around PoP is the key in the matchup.

Gonna battle with this at the PT next weekend, the sideboard might have to change as I'll scout it out before the event

[BantFTW]

I'm going to PT Amsterdam (side-event Legacy I think your talking bout?) to.
Is it the sunday or saturday?

ty

PS: what's your name? Maybe better to go to Benelegacy xD?

[Nelis]

I'm going to PT Amsterdam (side-event Legacy I think your talking bout?) to.
Is it the sunday or saturday?

ty

Its saturday at 3, Ill probably be there too. Check it all out @: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Events.aspx?x=mtgcom/protour/amsterdam10-public

edit: theres one on friday as well.

Ontopic: @ooldod: you need to play aggro/control vs Goblins, attacking all out is very dangerous.

[BantFTW]

Okej, than 2 days, will test the first day your list.
Don't you think horizon canopy is quite good with kotr?
And isn't stoneforge mystic awesome lol?
you can just win games on him :O?

And don't you like elspeth, I like it ALOT lol.

[Nelis]

I am very a traditional person so I don't like stuff like Stoneforge package and Elspeth. The only 'innovating' thing you could maybe expect from me would be running wastelands and the Enlightened Tutor SB. I also decided not to play canopy ever anymore in zoo. It has given me more headaches than benefits.

But I'm not sure if I'm going to play Zoo. I might go for UWT or Goblins.

[BantFTW]

Ah oké, yeah elspeth is a pain in the ass for many decks lol^^, and stoneforge makes it lot more, winnable so^^
Mahybe sideboard^^

[Nelis]

Against what deck do you think you need Stoneforge and Jittes? We are better than the other aggro decks that are out there, against control and combo its way too slow. I really don't see what I need them for, I think its a waste of space, main or sideboard.

Against what matchups is Elspeth relevant? It might have its purposes vs certain hard match ups like Staxx maybe? I havent tested her but it seems slow against control and combo too.

[BantFTW]

yeah, that's true against combo it's way to slow (you almost never win that matchup so^^)
But against random.decks and control if you can cast it it probably let's you win the game.
But the problem is 4 mana, if you only play 20 and you sac some for fireblast and wastelands^^
sometimes that's hard so your probably right.
going to drop them and the stoneforges to, finally I see it lol.

EDIT: Idk what I'm going to play, this or aggro-bant^^

[BantFTW]

And euhm, why play volcanic fallout?
You can't lose against gobblins and merfolks or they go like epic :O?

Woudn't 3 spots for decks that play with their graveyard like survival, dredge,.. be good?
I think those matchups are quite hard?

[Mark Sun]

@Morbid's meta: how would some Pyroclasms do? You'd have to consider switching out Lynxes for Apes so more of your army survives, but clasm seems like the sweeper you need. I wouldn't run Flamebreak et. al. because 3 damage will kill your team too, though depending on Goblins' tricks Volcanic Fallout's instant speed may make it superior. Hopefully your Pridemages are taking care of Vials and your Teeg is already sided out, so it further minimizes your exposure. I'd try them in the StP slots. Zoo already has plenty of point removal and direct damage, so add a sweeper instead of more 1-to-1 solutions. Just a thought. =)

I will try to test it as a 3-of in the SB. Yeah, I read in the thread earlier (just did a search on "Goblins") and I saw that people were recommending either Pyroclasm or Volcanic Fallout. I think I might go -1 Karakas (I haven't seen Reanimator in a while), -2 Swords to Plowshares, +3 Pyroclasm to get:

// SIDEBOARD
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroclasm
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast


Were my boarding strategies correct? That's one of the things I was more concerned about.


@ jandax: Is Fallout superior to Pyroclasm against Goblins? They have Wastelands and explosive starts (then again, Zoo has some pretty explosive starts too), so the faster the answer, the better, right? Especially because you need 1R instead of 1RR for Pyroclasm. The first Goblins match was purely my fault, as my fate was already sealed when I kept some greedy hands. "If I draw another Land, I..." famous last words.

Thanks for the help guys. I'm touring more Legacy archetypes, so I may not play Zoo next week, but will keep these changes in mind.

[jandax]

Well, I tested against Goblins today and it can take out a lot of things when a Lord isn't on the table. The 1RR is sometimes tough to pay. I like it over grip because it's more of a proactive card. I dunno, I'm sure my SB will change whenst I scout before the event.

[Valtrix]

Honestly, I think Umezawa's Jitte is a much, much better answer to goblins than pyroclasm. It's more mana intensive, but has no collateral damage. That coupled with all of the spot removal is a very strong combination against them. In addition, Jitte is huge in the mirror and further trouncing on merfolk, which is the second reason why I would want it over pyroclasm.

[OldOD]

jitte is actually pretty not amazing in the mirror, most zoo builds are playing alot of removal, and you just sink all of your tempo into trying to get jitte online and just get your dude removed, not to mention pridemage. that being said if it gets online its trouble of course, but if im playing the mirror and youre bringing in jitte i really dont mind at all.

[Curby]

@Jandax: I'm probably being dumb again, but why does Mindbreak Trap come in against Elves? If they play Elves one at a time, the most you'll get to exile is one spell, right?

EDIT: Yeah combo, but I'm wondering what sorta elf combo this would be useful against. Glimpse into Grapeshot? It's sounding like a metagame decision based on his local Elf players. Shrug.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

For Combo Elves I'm assuming.

And about this whole Steppe Lynx/Kird Ape/Loam Lion thing, it comes down to player preference. Blue blasting a Kird Ape usually means you're playing a horrible blue player as well, so don't worry about it.

[Nelis]

Ethersworn Canonist would be an option, maybe. Also good vs other combo decks and its a beater.

[jandax]

@Jandax: I'm probably being dumb again, but why does Mindbreak Trap come in against Elves? If they play Elves one at a time, the most you'll get to exile is one spell, right?

EDIT: Yeah combo, but I'm wondering what sorta elf combo this would be useful against. Glimpse into Grapeshot? It's sounding like a metagame decision based on his local Elf players. Shrug.

I didn't bring MBT in the board for Elves! alone, but storm combo in general.

Yeah it's a metagame option, a few people will pick up Elves! around here. Countering the NO is pretty much a game buster, as well as Banefire/Grapeshot with the storm on the stack. There's really nothing they can do if you have the Trap. I've noticed NO is either the sideboard package where Banefire/Grapeshot is the mainboard, either way MBT covers it.

[jnosrati]

i just drew into first at a descentlyu sized tournament (30+) at knight ware with this list

4goyf
4 nacatl
4 quasali pridemage
4 steppe lynx (in my opinion better than goyf, holy hell its so good)
4 bolt
3 chain
3helix
2 pop
2 lavamancer (i liked cutting it to two)
2 library (jitte has proven over and over to be dreadful)
4 path
2 knight
2 teeg

3 basics
12 fetches (so amazing)
5 duels (1 savannah, 2 of the others, took out a canopy i used to run for a duel, very good call between all my fetching lifeloss, and my need for a fetch target)


sb:
2grip
2 macabre
2crypt
1 relic
1 swords
1 needle
2 oblivion ring
2 reb
2 pyroblast

beat: goblins, 2 vengevival, 3 merfolk, 2 other decks-possibly one was vengevine

lost to : new horizons, eva green(manaflooded+ o ringed a deed-big misplay)


so i was 4/2 going into top 8 and was 8th place playing first and won it all the way.

so, everything comes in against vengevine. later i learned maybe not so much the blasts and the grips, but 2 blasts were ok

[CorpT]

Quick report. We went to a 24-man playing for a Library tournament this weekend.

My list:
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix*
2 Fireblast

3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Forest
12 Fetch Lands

Sideboard:
1 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Krosan Grip
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyroblast

*Lightning Helix is not generally in my list. However, when we got to the site and saw some of the decks.... it didn't look like Price would be that useful as most of the decks we saw were pretty weak. There did turn out to be some good decks there though.

Round 1: Goblins
Game 1 & 2 are about the same. I have lots of removal and he doesn't have as many creatures. In one game, he eventually stalls the board and I finish with 9 to the head. In the second game he kept a fairly loose hand with Wasteland, Port and Vial and didn't draw a Red source for a very long time.

Round 2: NO Bant
I think I took this in two, but I'm not sure. Games were pretty straightforward. He did get Counter/Top online in one game, but I had enough creatures in play and ways around it to not matter. Finished with Fireblast when he was at 0 cards in hand.

Round 3: RGUW CounterTop
Seemed like pretty standard Sperling type Counter Top. Spouts, Jace, Cliques, etc... Game 1 he mulls to 5 and proceeds to set up a quick CB/Top lock before I can get going. It's over pretty quickly. Game 2 is close, but I manage to keep enough pressure on and now I have more answers to CB/Top with K Grips and Blasts. Game 3 I mull to 5 and manage to pull it back. He floods pretty hard and starts digging for an answer but I have a K Grip for his top and burn for him. Decent player I've seen around before.

Round 4/5 ID

Quarters: Dark Zoo
Both of these games were pretty unfair. I had active Lavamancer while he had Dark Confidant and Bloodhall Ooze. In the second game, I had burn/removal for his creatures while he stalled on land. Both games were very, very quick and mostly a blowout.

Semis: Stax w/Baneslayers
It looked like a pretty weak Stax build, but it had bad written all over it. He was dropping Ghostly Prisons while I was trying to Path his Baneslayers. Eventually he had more BSA than I had Path. Game 2 was even worse. He had Suppression Field while I had Fetchlands. It was over real quick.

Overall, the deck did well. Even against decent players with decent decks (First 3 more than in the top 8 really) it was performing well. The sideboard is a bit of a mess, but we were trying to scout and saw a TES player so threw the MBT in for that. Dredge managed to knock out my buddy, so even if I did make it to the Finals, it is fairly unlikely I could have beat Dredge with only Bojuka Bog. We were mostly hoping no one would be a big enough jerk to run Dredge.

[Pulp_Fiction]

stikl needs nore curseled scroll mother fucjker!!!!!!it wins games i promise!

Steppe lynx is for n000bs , the cards sucks and is situational, play good cards dainmt it!

[justjake54]

Steppe lynx is fine. I'm currently still testing with it and I'm not sure if I prefer it yet but early game he can be a super beater, and even late game he makes a fetch land a decent draw. worst case scenario he's a cheap blocker but I'd still pay 1 white mana for 4 damage, if he accomplishes that and/or gets a relevant creature of theirs out of the way I'm fine with that.

[troopatroop]

It's really Steppe Lynx vs. KirdApe vs. Loam Lion vs. Noble Hierarch. Hierarch is great imo, I've been testing him alot against Dreadstill and Merfolk. He really helps you shrug off their mana denial, and curve into big things sooner. He's also a great follow-up to your turn 1 Nacatl, giving him exalted and leaving a mana open for another dude or some burn. Turn 3 Elspeth is also strong, he's proven himself to me.

[justjake54]

I just feel Hierarch doesn't do enough for the deck. I mean the exalted damage is pretty much all he supplies as zoo doesn't need too much acceleration. Late game it really is a dead draw being a 0/1 that dose nothing where as steppe lynx at least is a 2/3 or a 4/5 sometimes. and once you get more than one creature out there the exalted triggers pretty much don't do anything that pridemage doesn't (making your goyf just big enough to beat through theirs)

[jandax]

It's definitely not a card for Naya Zoo. GRW midrange decks sure can use Hierarch. Otherwise, there are tons of more aggressive one drops out there. It'd be interesting to see what people would cut for it

[jnosrati]

I need a lesson in the NH matchup, and how much i need in my board for the mu; i just dont have any experience playing it yet. can someone link me to the thread/ give me an idea of what the mu is like?

[jandax]

PT Amsterdam Legacy Side event: 91 players, top 16 (14th) Wotc decided to make it a cut to top 4 after 7 rounds of Swiss (presumably because of time as it started at 4)


Was at the PT today, what a blast. Tons and tons of different styles of Magic. I traded and cheered friends on in the main event until the Legacy gig began. The list I used-

4 Nacatl
4 Lynx
3 Lavamancer
4 Pridemage
4 Goyf
2 Teeg
3 KotR

4 Bolt
4 Path
3 PoP
2 Fireblast
2 Chain Lightning
1 Library

11 Fetch
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sb-
3 Pyroblast
3 Crypt
3 Choke
3 Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap (mvp all day)

The sideboard was to shore up good matches and have outs to worse ones. I will be happy upping the Traps to 4 at loss to a choke or crypt, but for a larger tournament like this I went with what I had. Maybe extra removal like StP would have been useful, I'll try that out tomorrow.

Round 1 - Belcher

I keep a Nacatl hand with Teeg and KotR on the curve, two fetchlands and a pair of bolts. Solid. He won the roll with a natural 20, then proceeded to Land Grant showing me 2 Red Rituals, a Black one, a Mox, a SSG and an Empty the Warrens for 10 goblins. I wasn't even mad. Actually, it was kind of impressive because he started the whole show off with a natural 20. I put on my best retard face, stared at my hand and scooped on to sideboard in the traps. One thing I did was shuffle my whole SB into the deck and pick out 15 before shuffling up. He had no idea what I was playing.

Game two I mull to 6 into a Trap. Never mind the lynx, two fetchlands and a pridemage next to it. Lady Gaga wrote that hit song for moments like this. Ever feel like you're going to auto-win? Feels good man. I get in there for 8 with the lynx before he land grants twice over those two turns showing some mana and a Burning Wish. He chains into the Wish for a Pyroclasm from the board, but he has drawn no business. I was threatening some low life with a couple cards in hand so I guess he felt my board presence was enough to get me to use my Trap on it. After I put him low with a pridemage and lynx, I sac the pridemage on his Mox and pass. We move on.

Game three was another time for Trap to shine. I keep a MBT/Nacatl hand and put dudes on the board. He's doing his thing and storms into an EtW on 6 storm, so stacking the storm triggers and exiling them, I beat Belcher :D

+3 MBT -3 Path

1-0

Round 2 - Goblins

My opponent walks up, sits his deck face up on the table whilst adjusting his chair. I pretend not to see that Goblin Piledriver, but I totally did a mental fistpump. Nice guy, it was even his birthday too, but a good matchup against a slack player is always good for the self esteem. Nothing to note really other than I killed him for exactsies both games. On the first game notably by attacking him with a 6/6 KotR, he blocks with his face and goes to write down 6 on his pad. Hold. Up. I ask no blocks? and he confirms. Then before combat damage I Fireblast said face for the extra 6 to finish him off. Feels good man.

2-0

-3 PoP +3 Grip

Round 3 - 4c CBtop

When it came to a goyf wall, my opponent won the first game. Never saw CB until the third game actually. Lots of top activations game 1. Game two was more lopsided in my favor. But game three I messed up hardcore. I had from the side a Choke, Grip and a Blast, after playing and losing a few creatures. There was a freshly played CB out when I untapped and would undoubtedly reveal something blind. I weighed my Grip too high and went to blast the CB revealing another Goyf. That put one on the field smashing me and one on top. Blast resolved, CB went bye. I shoulda griped it because my choke got Forced. Choke was the card that'd have more effect on the board than a blind CB. Keeping the two duals tapped down would have stalled the next two goyfs that were drawn and played...

-3 Lavamancer -4 Lynx +3 Pyroblast +2 Grip/choke

2-1


Round 4 Mirror

First time ever playing the mirror. In my year of legacy, I've never sat down to this. I had nothing to side in, so i was going to have to rely on things out of my control to eek through. Lost the roll. He curved into a KotR while I kept a Lynx hand with some burn. It got neatly removed and hsi goyf's were out of burn range.

Second game saw Lightning Helix thwart my attempt to burn him out. I thought I played well and could have drawn a different series of cards to get there, but simply didn't.

Shuffled 15 in and pulled them right back out.


2-2

Round 5 GBU Goodstuff

I don't recognize this as an archetype. He sat next to me the previous match and I saw things like Jace, top, Pernicus Deed, Bobs, etc. I win the roll, but can tell he's out of it. He mulled to 6 and called a judge on himself for not de-sideboarding. Good man. He gets a verbal warning and mulls to five after sideboarding into his maindeck. I lose my lynx but land that one Library, which was surprisingly good when I drew it those few games, on turn two. I pay 8 life to overwhelm him with green dudes. Game two he mulls to 5, but you can tell he's out of it. Good spirited guy, it was just the end of the tournament for him and we signed the slip after 15 minutes.

-3 lavamancer -3 Path +3 choke +3 Pyro

3-2

Round 6 ANT

Nice kid sitting across from me. This Nacatl and burn hand seems sweet when he ponders for turns one and two. On turn 5 he hardcasts Ad Nauseum at around 10 and goes all the way down to 3, drawing a few land and two brainstorms and two tendrils. Had there been a Ritual in that chain, he'd have been off. But my kittehs and bolt in hand made sure, that even if he didn't go for that last card and flipped an EtW to lose, he wasn't winning.

-3 Path +3 Mbt

I mull from a one lander with MBT into a Nacatl/goyf/KotR hand with two fetches and a Trap. Feels good man. I curve like a champ. His friends are watching from behind him, they don't see it either. He chains into an Infernal tutor with an empty hand only to get it exiled. Uproarious laughter then I ask, "Is it my turn now?" which only makes it sillier. He hangs on for two more turns hoping to rip a tutor or something, but we were still chuckling. I 2-0'd ANT with Zoo :D

4-2

Round 7 Mono Red Painter/stone

He won the roll, and started things off by dumping most of his hand onto the board including a Servant on Blue and REB'ing my taiga. Sad kitty got a Plateau to start getting in there, and I held up the land for bolt on the Servant. He had another Blast for my kitteh when I baited the Bolt for it. that may seem questionable but he had a mox, City of Traitors and that Servant out with two cards in hand. I had gas. I cleaned up with some burn, nothing I remember clearly.

Game two sees the both of us mulling to 5. I keep four lands and a path while he is stuck on one mountain for two turns. I get a Knight on my third turn but don't play it as he brought in some legendary red creature that has 3 abilities, 2/2 for 1RR, first one is dumb, second 1R T: discard a card So -n- So does 3 damage to a target, 4RR T: So -n- so deos 6 damage to each creature and player. It could kill my KotR so I wait until I draw a second fetchland to keep it alive. I do, and it lives. The REBs i sided in shone because a servant was yet again out and on blue. He flooded for a few turns and I just grow the knight and get there.

-2 teeg -1 library +3 REB

5-2

That record was good enough for 14th of 91. There was one pro who dropped the main event, Tom Ross. I thought I recognized him through reading a few of his articles in the past but wasn't sure. We were always sitting a chair or two away during the tournament. He's another one of those successful players who loves Nacatls. His build featured Helixs, Apes/lions and a Karakas from what i saw. It was a good tournament. I finished well for myself, played some good Magic and can't wait to do it again tomorrow.

[Parax]

Congrats on the job well done man.

[Crazy Eddie]

Hi everybody, first post, after watching this forum for a while. Anyway, I played Zoo at the Amsterdam Side Events this weekend, with a quite standard list. I listed 4-3 at Friday, and 4-1 Saturday. While I’m quite happy with my results, I encountered Vengevine Survival three times Saturday (only losing from a build with wasteland, Stifle, and actual Goyfs, and a very good player who in the end went 5-0), but having quite a lot of troubles with the other two which I won. So I was wondering what the best strategy against that deck is. Shooting their T1 hierarch worked quite good for me, and boarding K Grip from the sideboard is also to be recommended, but I’m wondering what the general strategy should be, and whether Tormod’s Crypt should be boarded in. It’s quite easy for them to play around by just hardcasting Vengevines or only try to bring one back, have you use your Crypt on it, and then fill up their graveyard again. So, any suggestions?

[jandax]

If they play around it, it gives you more time to get them to burn range. If they can't hold onto a Survival/SHaman then their deck isn't doing much. Obv killing their creatures as they come works wonders, as they only have counters as removal. THey're more of a combo deck, and you're the aggressor. Bash face and trade creatures up when possible. I'd say proxy the deck and run some games against it post board, it'll give you a way better idea of what your list needs to and can do since we don't know what you're running.

We didn't play on Friday did we? Are you from Dortmund?

[Crazy Eddie]

Yeah, I already thought something like that, but thx for the info. And you're right, I should start testing against it.

Anyway, we didn't play against each other friday. I'm from Nijmegen (Joost from Benelegacy), and I played against a guy from Wallonia, and somebody from I guess somewhere near the russian border (he had a name with a lot of consonants and hardly any vowels. I didn't even try to pronounce it).

[jandax]

Ahh okay, I think we sat next to eachother round 6 then. You were playing the mirror, I was against ANT. I remember someone saying they were from Nijmegen, it rung a bell

Yep, the best way to go about it is just test the matchup, preferably with another player who's competent in legacy.

[GoboLord]

Hi guys,

I'm in doing some statistics and I need your help.
I need you estimates about certain MUs of Zoo. If you want to help me, please click on the link below and answer 14 questions about Zoo's MUs.

Survey (http://FreeOnlineSurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=ccbcl72fq4l1b5f802796)

Thank you for your help!


@ Crazy Eddie: I'm studying in Nijmegen and one guy who's living on my floor is called Joost, too. I know this name isn't to rare, but is there any chance that you are living in Vossenveld?

[Crazy Eddie]

@ Jandax: I'm sorry I can't recall our conversation quite clearly, but by the time we arrived at round 6 it was 10 pm or something like that and I my skull-stuffing was no longer functioning optimal...

@ Gobolord: I'm not your neighbour, I have never even lived on Vosseveld. But Joost is a quite common dutch surname, so you're bound to run into one someday.

[Nelis]

I played on saturday too @4, after a terrible start of 0-2. I ended 3-2 netting me two boosters, dont know what place I ended. I lost the zoo mirror round one, cant remember round 2. Round 3 I played a mono black deck vs a dude who played his 2nd Legacy tournament ever. Stone-throwing Devils wtf? Round 4 I beat Vengevival with Shrieking Drakes. I used my Enlightened Tutor sideboard and Krosan Grips to good effect but I'm not sure if its actually worth siding in the Tutors. He was surprised though that I played them which made me smile. Cant remember round 5 either. I was too tired because of a wedding and wedding party the night before.

Edit: round 2 I lost to a Poxless variant. he was able to keep me of my lands all the time and he had topdeck skills like crazy. He litterally topdecked the right card every time I was able to get back into the game. Terrible.

I was in Amsterdam on Saturday and Sunday and everything I played (Saturday: Standard and Legacy. Sunday: WPN standard and Sealed deck) went terrible. In the end I didn't really enjoy the weekend.

[jandax]

I wasn't there on Sunday. I had to work but really wish I coulda made it.

The weekend was a blast, evert premiere level event is a great experience.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Went 5-2 at Vestal this weekend, getting 11th out of 79.

My list was:

4 Nacatl
4 Lavamancer
3 Steppe Lynx
1 Figure of Destiny
4 Goyf
4 Pridemage
1 KoTR

4 Bolt
3 Chain
3 Helix
4 Path
2 Fireblast
2 Sylvan Library

3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy

List felt great, but I mulliganned A LOT. I don't know why. I do mulligan fairly aggressively, but my standards for a keepable 7 card hand are pretty lax (Basically a one drop and 2 lands will get me to keep the hand.)

My matchups were as follows:
The Gate (2-0)
UG Vengevine Survival Madness (1-2)
Doomsday/SnT (2-1)
New Horizons (0-2)
GW Survival (2-1)
Excalibur (2-0)
UMerfolk (2-0)

I'll post a full report some time this week when I'm feeling less lazy.

[lordofthepit]

Have you guys seen the new planeswalker?

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/td/nyutstdyftuygbunsd.jpg

By no means does it belong in traditional Zoo builds, but I think it would be interesting for the midrange Zoo decks that already run planeswalkers. It's pretty much better than Ajani Vengeant, and I think it's better than Elspeth as well since 1) its mana requirement is easier, 2) you can beat for 4 as soon as this drops, and 3) the ultimate is much cheaper at -5 and should win you the game. It can't defend itself while growing like Elspeth can, but that's less of an issue for an aggro deck that treats this as a bomb to supplement our creatures, rather than a control deck that uses Elspeth as a sole win-con.

Obviously, this is too slow for most Zoo strategies, but it does solve a lot of problems like 1) getting around traditional sweepers like Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, and Wrath of God; 2) avoiding the most common forms of creature removal (or even pseudo-removal like Maze of Ith); and 3) saying fuck you to hate cards like Blood Moon.

[jandax]

Maybe it is to be paired wtih Blood Moon or Magus. Seems like RDW got the nuts.

[Crazy Eddie]

I think this card would find a nice home in Dragon Stompy, since that deck relies on 6 or more moon effects. The Midrange Zoo decks will profit more from Elspeth giving your critter flying, compared to another ground creature that clogs up the board.

[Demonic_Attorney]

The important issue being raised on which creature to play between Kird Ape, Loam Lion or Steppe Lynx is a manifestly contentious issue that perhaps comes down to player preference. That being said, I am not persuaded that the issue has been fruitfully or fully canvassed in this thread. That is why I purpose further and more comprehensive analysis on this issue.

I find myself with a very recent change of mind in relation to this pivotal decision which can make a difference in any given metagame. I don't think that a serious zoo player can minimize how crucial this decision can be going into a large legacy tournament like a Grand Prix. I was previously of the view that Steppe Lynx was the worst of the aforementioned choices. For the reasons that follow, I am now of the view that Lynx is better in Zoo then both Kird Ape and Loam Lion, or at least in the style of zoo that I am playing at the moment.

Matt Elias (AKA Voltron00x) won the starcitygames.com 169 player legacy tournament in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He played Steppe Lynx. In this regard, I can put it no better then did Elias in his exemplary tournament report on his June 6, 2010 tournament win where he had this to say in relation to Steppe Lynx:

"Lynx is a burn spell, in cat form. You’re hopefully paying W for 4 damage. That’s a tremendous return on your investment. The fact that you sometimes go beyond that is just gravy. Lynx is part of the reason this deck is faster than expected, and has a tendency to beat Counter-Top decks. Lynx’s ability to be a 4/5 for several consecutive turns is just huge; he can power past an early Goyf where a Loam Lion / Kird Ape cannot. Swinging in for 5 damage on turn two after playing a Pridemage feels pretty insane, considering you still have a 3/3 for G and five burn spells capable of dealing four or more damage. Did I lose at least one game because I had Lynx instead of Kird Ape / Loam Lion? Yes. Did I win more games because I had Lynx? I believe so. Again, it depends on what you’re trying to beat." [Emphasis Mine]

At Grand Prix Madrid, Luis Quintana sported 4x Steppe Lynx main deck and went undefeated on day 1 with an impressive 6-0 showing. Alejandro Delgado, who made the top 8 playing zoo at Grand Prix Madrid said he wished he would have played Steppe Lynx instead of Kird Ape after he replaced the Apes he didn't like with 4x Figure of Destiny. Not to sound overly critical but the ape/lion/lynx should always beat out Destiny which really doesn't make the cut for a tier one zoo build anymore; I digress.

In any event, I too was guilty of arbitrarily and capriciously judging Steppe Lynx. In fact, I summarily dismissed it as being playable in Zoo and thought it was a poor mans Kird Ape upon the release of Zendikar almost exactly one year ago. However, when I extensively play tested it against the entire legacy metagame against various players in the most aggressive style of a Zoo build that can presently be constructed and it was clear that doing 4-5 early when Apes and Lions can only do 2 can be a factor in determining whether a W or L is circled on your match report. Again, I can’t over emphasize that if you don't play a dozen fetches, Knight and Library then I could definitely see using Kird Ape which I prefer over Loam Lion. However, the cumulative totality of using the foregoing cards in combination with Lynx provides for good tempo and tremendous synergy. This is why I now believe that in the context of Zoo (which is suppose to be optimally aggressive) Lynx is a tier one card that is just as good if not better then Kird Ape in the context of this deck.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I agree with everything you said except for the dissing of Figure. I wouldn't play Figure over Lynx, but it's actually an amazing card if you know how to play with it. Personally, if I wanted to run figures (Which I currently run one of) I run them in addition to lynxes.

[jandax]

That's a fine summary, we should copypasta it on the next page when this debate eventually resurfaces.

Nothing to add really.

Hungry:

Report? Anything special or just a typical good matchups/bad matchups affair?

[Valtrix]

I agree with everything you said except for the dissing of Figure. I wouldn't play Figure over Lynx, but it's actually an amazing card if you know how to play with it. Personally, if I wanted to run figures (Which I currently run one of) I run them in addition to lynxes.

I agree on Figure. It should only be run as a 1x or maybe 2x of. It serves well as giving you extra 1cc cards number 12-13, and is generally better at that point than just having a dumb loam lion or kird ape, regardless of the other one drops you're playing. It gives you another large beater that can put down early pressure, and is certainly not to be completely dismissed.

[jandax]

Adding on, it can serve as a valuable removal magnet to get a goyf or KotR to stick in odd circumstances. Being a 1/2 of, a 1 drop and mana sink, a potential beater with evasion, a removal magnet, it does lots but its inconsistency keeps all that in check. I'll try it out if folks seem to like it. Maybe I will move Teeg to the board. Gives me something new to play with at least

[jandax]

Question for folks out there with relevant experience:

The newer wasteland versions of zoo; what cards does wasteland replace?
I suppose it could be utility slots like Library, Teeg, etc. I wouldn't replace any land in the deck, just turn wasteland into a 0cc spell that can produce colorless mana.

What cards define the mirror/agro matchup?
Don't say Jitte, it's a different format from last year. I'd think instant speed removal is at a premium. Swords, Helix, REB in relevant cases.

Thoughts, experiences?

[Nelis]

Question for folks out there with relevant experience:

The newer wasteland versions of zoo; what cards does wasteland replace?
I suppose it could be utility slots like Library, Teeg, etc. I wouldn't replace any land in the deck, just turn wasteland into a 0cc spell that can produce colorless mana.

In my opinion Chain Lightning is the first candidate. I agree on not using land spots for them. I think Library should never be replaced by anything so Teeg would be an option since combo is less prevalent nowadays.

[Curby]

Note that with Leonin Arbiter, the "fetches, whee!" style of Zoo now has another mark against it. Sure it's just a 2/2 creature, but you can expect it to be played in decks that can protect it. Lynx might still be better than Ape, and we don't know if Arbiter will see much play, but you can't deny the vulnerability of a fetch-heavy manabase.

[CorpT]

Note that with Leonin Arbiter, the "fetches, whee!" style of Zoo now has another mark against it. Sure it's just a 2/2 creature, but you can expect it to be played in decks that can protect it. Lynx might still be better than Ape, and we don't know if Arbiter will see much play, but you can't deny the vulnerability of a fetch-heavy manabase.

What deck is going to play Leonin Arbiter? And would they really want it against Zoo? Sure, it is mildly annoying, but it dies to literally every single piece of removal in the deck. It is also symetrical so they cannot run fetchlands either. Suppression Field is far superior to this if you're looking to stop fetches and it sees extremely little play. Aven Mindcensor is much better at stopping searching and I don't think I've ever seen it played.

[keys]

Unless they accelerate it into play with something like Chrome Mox, you'll have at least one land in play, which is enough to kill it. At worst, it will stunt your play a few turns until you find removal or non-fetch lands. It's not going to singlehandedly tip the scale in Death and Taxes' favor, and I don't see any other deck playing it, except Stax, and (as CorpT said) in that deck Suppression Field is better.

[troopatroop]

I also think that Leonin Arbiter isn't too scary. He dies to everything we play, and they're spending two mana to our one.


Question for folks out there with relevant experience:

The newer wasteland versions of zoo; what cards does wasteland replace?
I suppose it could be utility slots like Library, Teeg, etc. I wouldn't replace any land in the deck, just turn wasteland into a 0cc spell that can produce colorless mana.

What cards define the mirror/agro matchup?
Don't say Jitte, it's a different format from last year. I'd think instant speed removal is at a premium. Swords, Helix, REB in relevant cases.

Thoughts, experiences?

Wasteland doesn't really replace anything. I don't even like to count it as a mana source, it's simply 0cc LD. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Playing Wasteland makes playing Noble Hierarch MUCH more attractive, and changes the style of the deck. Zoo traditionally wants all of it's cards to be threats or answers, and Noble Hierarch is neither of those things. What he does do however, is get you to 3 or 4 mana much faster, and coupled with Wasteland makes it harder for your opponent to get there with you. This changes the whole Zoo gameplan, which is to drop more dudes than your opponent can deal with and dominate the board. Your goal is still to dominate the board, but it's less pressure oriented. Instead you're looking to land your bombs. Still, I find that Wasteland is amazing in the deck. Most of my opponents say, "what? wasteland in zoo?" and procede to fumble into the loss. My current manabase is as follows, with blue for Meddling Mage Sb. The Volcanic and Tropical could easily be Taiga and Plateau if you're not looking to go into blue.

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Wasteland

I included Noble Hierarch because he is more of a land than anything else. If you're wondering what cards I've omitted, Lightning Helix/Kird Ape/Loam Lion/Steppe Lynx all come to mind. I still play the full 4 of Path, Bolt, and Chain, and 2 Sylvan Library and Elspeth. Wasteland can be used to create mana for Library, Goyf, Elspeth, and KOTR. It makes your Knights alot better too, and can really cripple your opponent. I suppose I only play 19 colored sources of mana, but it's been fine with Hierarch and Library. You also really want to draw gas in this deck.
Hope that helps!

[jandax]

@troop:

that's pretty insightful. How do you hang against other dedicated agro decks, as well as how are typically good matchups?

[troopatroop]

@troop:

that's pretty insightful. How do you hang against other dedicated agro decks, as well as how are typically good matchups?

I'm glad you ask, the deck does really well. I find that the matchup against other aggro decks is about the same as quicker Zoo lists. This is because your defensive capabilities are still exceptional. You can still play Wild Nacatl and Tarmogoyf. You still have 12 cards at 1cc for removal, ensuring that you will never pay more to get rid of something than they paid to play it. Your strength lies in that you have a much more solid lategame. Sylvan Library is also solid gold, smoothing every draw along the way. I'll cover what I think to be the best aggro decks in Legacy.

Goblins- This matchup is still favorable, but easy to lose. All of your cards are great against them, but Goblins always has the ability to Matron into Ringleader, gas up and kill you. I would say it's about a 60-40 matchup in our favor, but would also note that quicker Zoo lists do better. I'm greedy and run the two blue lands, which can be awful after they've Wasted a land you need. In my experience playing against Goblins as long as you can cast your creatures, you're in great shape. If I expected alot of goblins however, I wouldn't play blue. It's important to note, that just because you're playing "Big Zoo" doesn't mean you can't play 8 Bolts! You need these to answer Goblin Lackey. What you really don't want them to play turn 1 is Aether Vial. This matchup has alot to do with how well they draw, but I feel confident against Goblins.

Zoo- The mirror usually comes down to who can land the most Tarmogoyfs/Knight of the Reliquarys, and we're better at that. I guess the other guy can have more burn, but it's not like all of our cards don't answer theirs too. Preserving your life total can blank their Fireblasts, and Elspeth is a bomb. I wouldn't say that it's a drastic change, but Big Zoo is slightly favored in my opinion.

Merfolk- This is kindof an aggro deck, so I figured I'd mention it. I've tested this matchup alot, and we're still heavily favored. Despite the fact that I play two Islands, I didn't lose a match to the merfolk deck. I would fear the black splash lists a little more, since Perish is very strong, but it's still the deck you want to be playing against all tournament. Wild Nacatl is just such a beating for them.

I'm not sure what else you want to know. Generally, this deck beats up on every other creature oriented deck. It's the decks that are non interactive that you need to actively fear. What really sets Big Zoo apart for me is how good it is against Counter-Top Control decks.

[keys]

Troop- I'm curious what the rest of your card choices are, and how it compares to Sarah Brennecke's deck (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=34736)from the Minneapolis SCG.

She ran 4 Knights but no Hierarchs or Elspeth.

Also, how do you feel about the interaction between Wasteland and Path to Exile?

[troopatroop]

Troop- I'm curious what the rest of your card choices are, and how it compares to Sarah Brennecke's deck (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=34736)from the Minneapolis SCG.

She ran 4 Knights but no Hierarchs or Elspeth.

Also, how do you feel about the interaction between Wasteland and Path to Exile?

My list is 9 cards different from hers.

+3 Noble Hierarch
+2 Elspeth
+1 Chain Lightning
+1 Fetchland
+1 Tropical Island
+1 Volcanic Island

-1 Wasteland
-2 Fireblast
-2 Loam Lion
-2 Horizon Canopy
-1 Plateau
-1 Mountain

I know that Path and Wasteland conflict, but in practice it doesn't always come up. Usually you hold Path for as long as you can, and use your burn first. Wasteland is all about the early game advantage, whereas you hold Path until you absolutely have to use it. The deck puts on enough pressure early on to get ahead with Wasteland to the point where the basic doesn't matter anymore a good deal of the time. You also have to figure the amount of times you won't see both the cards together at all. Wasteland gives you a window of time to capitalize on. Until you play that Path, you use that window to win the game, or at least put yourself in a good position to win. l admit that it lacks synergy, but the cards individually are too powerful not to play. I'd rather give them a basic than the 4-5 life with STP at that point.

[lordofthepit]

Troop, how does Big Zoo do against other (non-aggro) decks in the format? It seems pretty clear to me (in theory, at least) like it would do better against CounterTop and Chalice decks because of the higher curve and better against Lands because of the Noble Hierarchs, Meddling Mages, and Wastelands.

But what about more dedicated control decks (Landstill, Thopters) or combo decks (Survival Madness, Show and Tell, Storm, etc.)? It clearly has a slower clock, but I'm wondering if the ability to play Meddling Mage or to play more bigger, more resilient threats helps out in that regard. Can

[troopatroop]

I would say it does better. Against Landstill, all you really need to win is to stick one creature than can attack through Mishra's Factory. Wasteland is also pivotal against the Landstill deck. Theres no sense in playing a bunch of 1 drops to get through a Factory and walking into Wrath. You play more Exalted guys, and more Knight of the Reliquarys, so you're in great shape. Resolving Elspeth is also fantastic. You still play Qasali Pridemage to be pro-active against Standstill, and it's not like the clock is much slower. Loam Lion and Kird Ape really suck against Mishra's Factory, whereas all of our beaters can attack into it. I would say Big Zoo is better against dedicated control, because individually it's threats are stronger.

As far as combo is concerned, I always feel like a dog to it. That's why I board 3 Silence, 1 Gaddock Teeg, and 4 Meddling Mage to deal with it. Meddling Mage is very good against the combo decks you mentioned, and a very unexpected piece of hate. People at least expect to be able to play their cards against a Zoo deck, and sometimes they've only got one card you're afraid of. Often times there will be a match where Chain Lightning, Grim Lavamancer, and Path to Exile are lackluster. In those cases, you simply board them all out for Meddling Mages and some other cards. Meddling Mage is great against removal cards like Perish, Firespout, STP, and Innocent Blood. He's there for the combo decks mostly, but he often comes in to replace Lavamancer and can be amazing. The ability to switch gears and play the midrange Naya hate deck is what makes the deck great, imo.

[Bryant Cook]

As far as combo is concerned, I always feel like a dog to it. That's why I board 3 Silence, 1 Gaddock Teeg, and 4 Meddling Mage to deal with it. Meddling Mage is very good against the combo decks you mentioned, and a very unexpected piece of hate. People at least expect to be able to play their cards against a Zoo deck, and sometimes they've only got one card you're afraid of. Often times there will be a match where Chain Lightning, Grim Lavamancer, and Path to Exile are lackluster. In those cases, you simply board them all out for Meddling Mages and some other cards. Meddling Mage is great against removal cards like Perish, Firespout, STP, and Innocent Blood. He's there for the combo decks mostly, but he often comes in to replace Lavamancer and can be amazing. The ability to switch gears and play the midrange Naya hate deck is what makes the deck great, imo.

Meddling Mage is awful against storm to be honest. We storm players like to let you think it's solid against us, it really isn't.

Secrets out.

[jandax]

If it costed 0, then yeah it'd be good.

MBT is about as "good" as it gets against Storm. I always give a slight sigh when I play my 1 drop when my MBT is in hand (it's always been in my opening hand, like a charm) as to put on a helpless show, then stack the storm triggers and windmill slam the trap. If you Storm players would simply duress or chant Zoo players on your combo turn, GG.

Also, threw together a big Zoo list for testing purposes, troop whatcha think? Am I too far off?

4 Nacatl
4 Goyf
4 Pridemage
3 Lavamancer
3 KotR
3 Hierarch

4 Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path
2 Elspeth
2 Library
3 Wasteland

11 Fetch
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Sideboard options: choke, REB/pyro, MBT, leyline of Sanctity, teeg, bog/crypt, etc

Just putting together a list to begin testing, as I am interested in aquiring some of the cards in order to have both decks.

[troopatroop]

You're very close to my list. You have to ask yourself why you think the need the Mountain maindeck anymore firstoff. It doesn't help you play Qasali Pridemage, so if it's land #2 in your hand it kinda blows. All of your red cards cost 1, and you're not based in red anymore without Kird Apes or Fireblasts. I'd play another Plateau over it, which helps in casting Elspeth. I play KOTR #4, and only 10 Fetches. I built the deck when I saw this.

http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless/AMC/JapanLegacyChamps_2nd_E.html

@ Bryant : At least it's something. I agree that Meddling Mage sucks against Storm, because you can never call the right card, but it definitely comes in. Its not like Grim Lavamancer is going to do more. What I'm saying is that it has many other applications that are much stronger.

[keys]

Meddling Mage is awful against storm to be honest. We storm players like to let you think it's solid against us, it really isn't.

Secrets out.

True, but Mage is also great against other bombs like Loam.

Edit: troop got the gist of it.

[ivanpei]

Hmm I just tried modern warfare zoo (or big zoo) with 2 elspeths and 3 KOTRs, It's been testing very well for me. Has won me alot of games in the aggro mirror and very good vs countertop bant etc. Tried against landstill, elspeth didn't actually win me a game (damn you spell pierce!), so that's still a hard matchup. Speed wise, both felt the same (I play 4 steppe, 4 necatl, 3 grim lavamancer as my 1 drops), just have to mull into a 1 drop more often. I'd rather have a game winning elspeth come down turn 4/5 than more consistently having a dumb bear T1.

In order to accomodate the higher curve, I added 4 wastelands (24 lands total). I cut 1 coloured source and + 4 colourless, so the addition doesn't affect my colour consistency much. Didn't get flooded at all, wasteland was very useful in conjunction with kitties. Wasteland wasn't a huge bomb, but it was definitely useful. It doesn't singlehandedly win games but I felt like it helped me prolong my early game period for my kitties to get that extra swing in. Also helps me make landdrops for lynx and helps grow KOTR. I'm liking big zoo, would play it over "safe/traditional" zoo anyday, but I'm still 50/50 on a more sligh based zoo (greedy zoo) or big zoo. Sligh based maybe better against dedicated control decks and combo. I hate basics in zoo, screws my drops a lot, and having 1/2 doesn't help my resistance against wasteland very much.

List for reference:

4 Necatl
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Pridemage
3 KOTR

4 Path
4 Lightning bolt
3 Chain
2 Elspeth
2 Sylvan library

12 fetches
2 Horizon canopy
1 Savanna
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
4 Wastelands

I didn't feel that noble heirarch was needed heavily. If I were to test it, what would your recommendation be to cut from this list? I felt grim lavamancer was really crucial in the aggro MU and helps make zoo the dominant deck it is against tribal. Cutting it for noble IMO will be pretty unwise. Is making your bomb drops 1 turn earlier that important? Thoughts most welcome,Thanks!

EDIT: Ah I see that it was the lynx that got the boot and not grim. I have to say that lynx is pretty broken with 12 fetches and 24 lands. I recommend trying it out in place of noble.

[BantFTW]

I've played this deck and it's good okay, but it's slower than other zoo decks^^
against control it has a bette matchup as I tested but against aggro decks it's not that good anymore.

[troopatroop]

I've played this deck and it's good okay, but it's slower than other zoo decks^^
against control it has a bette matchup as I tested but against aggro decks it's not that good anymore.

Listen, not to be rude, but I've never seen you post anything insightful on these boards ever. If you'd like to elaborate on this with more than 2 sentences, (What aggro decks you tested against, What your observations were, How Big Zoo's differences lost you games, etc) I'd be much more inclined to take you seriously. As it stands, you're just trolling.

@ Steppe Lynx : Now believe me when I say this, I've tested the shit out of this card, and it is very tempermental. Generally in Magic, being Greedy is a bad thing. Being Greedy can be a good thing sometimes, and can win you games, but you need to evaluate how many games you've won or lost by taking a particular risk. This involves alot of playtesting. Playing Steppe Lynx is a risk in itself, presenting design constraints onto your deck as well. You become heavily devoted to having a turn 1 source of white mana to cast it, making you want to play more inital sources of white. Steppe Lynx is at his best turn 1, and gets exponentially worse as the game goes on. It's terrible off the top, and if you don't open a Plateau or Savannah you need to fetch for one, and Steppe Lynx won't get the juice from that land. You need additional Lands to sustain it, and if you have no land to play, it becomes a dead card. You can compare Steppe Lynx to Kird Ape and Loam Lion, and it looks pretty good by that comparison. But when you compare it to Noble Hierarch, in a deck running Wasteland and Elspeth, I think it's pretty clear what the safer choice is. Mana denial is rampant in this format too. You need to get lucky with Lynx, and I'm not the kind of person that wants to stake myself on getting lucky in tournament play. I've played with Steppe Lynx a great deal, but I think he's just too unstable for the gameplan I'm going for.

[jandax]

^Ignore him until he actually posts something of substance. I got a message a few weeks ago from him asking about something and I went into depth explaining things, not even a reply saying thank you or anything. He's just posting in a foreign language, and he's only after what he wants. Nothing towards contribution.

I'm gonna test out Lynx in a big zoo list just for the option of having an explosive start in a slower deck. Maybe that's not what the deck needs, but man can it end games. Kird Lions are gone from my lists entirely. I, too, am in favor of sligh Zoo with Lynx and lots of burn or now Big Zoo with Elspeth, Libraries, wastelands and hierarchs. the thing about Lynx is; if you don't open up wtih a Lynx hand, you open with a Nacatl hand, and if that's not it, then it's a lavamancer hand. Rock paper scissors. Sometimes you have a mixture of the three and life is good. Merely having the option has been a bit of a blessing for me. And I think it comes down, again, to personal preference. Play it safe and play Kird Lions, go for the throat with Lynx.

I have yet to find for myself if Lynx has a place in big zoo. here's a question to those who have more experience with the deck: Is a Big zoo with a transitional sideboard viable?

[ivanpei]

I have to admit my list is very damn greedy with lynx, no basics and high cc drops. I'll tune it and become less greedy as my testing progresses. I'll be having a play session today with some buddies and I'll grind out the heirarch vs lynx in big zoo question. Another question to more experienced zoo players. Is basics mandatory in zoo? I find that basics save you 10% of the time but slows you down (sometimes only minor) 30% of the time and are ok the other 60% of the time. In those 30%of games when I couldn't land two 1 drops or a pridemage T2, I found that I usually lost those games because my basics screwed me over. Thoughts appreciated.

[DFY889]

Meddling Mage is awful against storm to be honest. We storm players like to let you think it's solid against us, it really isn't.

Secrets out.

What do you even name against TES? Tendrils, Warrens, and Grapeshot all seem pretty bad since storm can just get a different one. Same issue with naming either burning wish or infernal tutor. Maybe LED?

[Mark Sun]

What do you even name against TES? Tendrils, Warrens, and Grapeshot all seem pretty bad since storm can just get a different one. Same issue with naming either burning wish or infernal tutor. Maybe LED?

The first thing I would name if I played Meddling Mage would be Ad Nauseam, and then Burning Wish.

I'm really interested in what a sideboard with Leyline of Sanctity would look like. I moved 3 KotR back to the MD today, and replaced Steppe Lynx with Kird Apes. Finished 4-1 (Beat Dredge, Canadian Thresh, lost to Burn, then beat Merfolk x2) today, losing only to burn, which had me at 10 life before I cast a spell in g3 and won after a quick start. Current playing:

2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pyroblast


In a mixed and random metagame with what seems to be more tribal / control at the moment, lots of CB/Top, Vials, and Standstill (both from Merfolk and Landstill) flying around today in general, but like I mentioned Burn was what wrecked me. Any suggestions?

[Amon Amarth]

Lightning Helix? It's like +1 cards against Burn and its serviceable everywhere else but a little slow in some matchups like the mirror.

[Mark Sun]

Lightning Helix? It's like +1 cards against Burn and its serviceable everywhere else but a little slow in some matchups like the mirror.

Yeah, unfortunately I chose not to run the card today, the last time I played in that metagame I made out well without it (Chain Lightnings served better), but this time I went in without. Whoops.

[jandax]

I'm gonna start testing Leyline of Sanctity as a 3 of in my build of Big Zoo, int he sideboard of course. It hoses burn, against which I've never played. It forces Storm to go Wish for something, again costing them cards, mana and time, and it stops discard. All relevant threats to Zoo in any metagame. On top of it all, it can be hardcast if it is bounced, or destroyed then drawn. I think it's a good card for Big zoo. Normal/Sligh zoo i'm not so sure, mainly because of the hardcasting part.

[Crazy Eddie]

If you are running Leylines, I would recommend 4 of them to increase the chance of having them in your starting seven, and to decrease the chance that you have to mulligan just to get them.
But besides that, are you facing a lot of Storm and Burn in your metagame lately? You say that you haven't faced Burn ever before, so what is the reason to take the Leyline in instead of Gaddock Teeg against Storm (except for the fact that you have to take your Elspeths out ofcourse, but in my opinion they're to slow to have a decent effect against Storm). I recognize the fact that the Leyline can get into play before turn 1, but you have to have it in your opening hand, or otherwise wait until turn 4, which is most likely to late. Otherwise, what about True Believer? It can come down on T2, it offers the same amount of protection, and it kicks for 2. Unfortunately, it's completely useless against burn.

[PanderAlexander]

@ Steppe Lynx : Now believe me when I say this, I've tested the shit out of this card, and it is very tempermental. Generally in Magic, being Greedy is a bad thing. Being Greedy can be a good thing sometimes, and can win you games, but you need to evaluate how many games you've won or lost by taking a particular risk. This involves alot of playtesting. Playing Steppe Lynx is a risk in itself, presenting design constraints onto your deck as well. You become heavily devoted to having a turn 1 source of white mana to cast it, making you want to play more inital sources of white. Steppe Lynx is at his best turn 1, and gets exponentially worse as the game goes on. It's terrible off the top, and if you don't open a Plateau or Savannah you need to fetch for one, and Steppe Lynx won't get the juice from that land. You need additional Lands to sustain it, and if you have no land to play, it becomes a dead card. You can compare Steppe Lynx to Kird Ape and Loam Lion, and it looks pretty good by that comparison. But when you compare it to Noble Hierarch, in a deck running Wasteland and Elspeth, I think it's pretty clear what the safer choice is. Mana denial is rampant in this format too. You need to get lucky with Lynx, and I'm not the kind of person that wants to stake myself on getting lucky in tournament play. I've played with Steppe Lynx a great deal, but I think he's just too unstable for the gameplan I'm going for.

I played Zoo a few months back when the meta was a lot faster with the mystical tutor fueled ANT and Reanimators and Zoo needed the explosiveness then and the risk of Lynx was worth it. But tonight my friend built Zoo and we playtested it with various current tier decks such as UG madness/survival, UB Merfolk, BR Goblins, and 4C Countertop jace, and I completely agree with you on Lynx. The point of a deck like Zoo is its consistency and to punish other decks that stumble and wit the meta different now, I like Sarah's list from the most recent SCG 5k. We all know at this point Steppe Lynx is it's either really good or really crappy, it relies completely on other cards, primarily fetchlands and/or Knight, and without them completely suck. It can win games or completely crap out and Zoo doesn't need that erratic inconsistency for the current meta.

[ivanpei]

I tested with a friend today (Andrew) and the following were my observations. Noble heirarch initially didn't appeal to me, but on troopatroop's advice, I gave it a shot. The extra mana boost in conjunction with wasteland was excellent, I could play around daze alot more and could empty my hand quicker. I killed at roughly the same speed because it spit out kotrs and elspeth quicker. In my mu vs new horizons, noble was crucial in keeping me afloat against stifles, daze and wastelands. Other observations, new horizons felt positive to me. In the games, I could actually outgrind them. I felt like with 4 kotrs, 2 elspeth and 2 sylvans, I could match their bombs and gas in the long game if not overpower them. Merfolk is still a very good mu, nothing changed. Reanimator was abysmal! Without steppe lynx and price of progress/ fireblast. I had no chance of killing quick enough. IMO playing big zoo is worth it, we don't see as much combo as during the mystical days. For reference I cut lynx and a waste for 4 nobles and 1 more kotr. Still hate basics.

[Catitas]

Yo
Back from vacations, and after banning by the moderators (i uded to be bulaxas...), here is my most recent report...

I've played zoo in a local tournment with 33 dudes, here's the list:

// Lands
2 [A] Taiga
2 [A] Plateau
1 [A] Savannah
1 [B] Forest
1 [B] Mountain
1 [B] Plains
2 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch

// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
4 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity

Round 1 (lands) 0-2

I just watched he playing both games, most hilarious start for him turn 1 tropical + exploration + tabernacle...(both games)

Round 2 (Madness) 2-0

Game 1 i drop hierarch on turn 1, then 3 dudes on turn 2 he cant keep up...
Game 2, i played grim turn 1, he playes mongrel turn 2, in my turn i chain it, he discards double rootwala, i bolt is mongrell then grim deals with rootwalas, he plays survival i grip it... pretty insane draws i had...

Round 3 (Solidarity) 2-1

This round i was playing a bad matchup and teammate, so i know exacly what to do, i win the dice and deal lethal at 4th turn...
Second game i have a lot of hate for his deck but no pressure with creatures he ended up killing me, game 3 i open double nacatl and double trap and win at 4th turn...

Round 4 (Rock) 2-0

I just played creatures while he was trying clean my hand with tourachs...game 2, basically the same except for only having grims in the board and he was holding a persh...LOL

Round 5 (Dreadstill) 2-1

Game 1, i played noble and nacatl and leave him to 1 life, but hi was mana screwd, and he plays dreadnought, i miss played by not playing goyf, and lost... Game 2 i wasnt a single bit agressive but a goyf managed to deal 12 damange and another 5 by qasali pridemage, leaving him to 3, i asked him if he had 4 counterspells cause i had a mix of four chain/bolt in hand...game 3 he plays dreadnought at second i only had a noble in play...i topdecked qasali, he had no force, and i keep beating him with a later knight of the reliquary...

Thoughts:

I really liked wasteland, even against lands if had drawn one i would win the match but cutting a fetch or a canopy for it seems risky... i pack a lot anti combo SB, here in portugal theres a lot of people paying with it (ANT, DD hybrids, Solidarity) so i realy felt i needed them...
Hierarchs are just insane, after playing zoo with them, i cant understand why ape/lynx were options... they were just better everytime... ill probably play the 4th knight... ill test swords instead of paths but for now i fell happy with them...

Well i ended up in 4th place, my bro ended in 5th with DD-ANT, hope you enjoyed report, this weekend i'll play again and ill give the report next week...

Cya

[ivanpei]

I think most of us are drifting towards the same list (big zoo shell that troopatroop has been championing) due to the post mystical banning meta. @ above poster, I play almost the same list except I have a preference for non basics and more fetches (Even without lynx, fetches + reliquary and grims are still very good). I also play -1 chain, -1 pridemage, + 1 wasteland + 1 Knight. Congrats on your finish! I think big zoo's strengths over traditional zoo are:

1. Aggro mirror (zoo, gobbos)
2. Bant aggro
3. New-horizon esc decks
4. Countertop
5. Mid range decks like the rock

IMO, anything with dudes is a better MU.

Worse MUs:

1. Storm combo, even with sligh zoo storm is hard.
2. Reanimator (big zoo kills slower)
3. Lands (no price of progress + fast beats before mazes and tabernacle land)
4. Landstill (can't sneak that game ending price of progress in before he stabilizes)

It seems like the bad matchups get worse and the good matchups get better, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Big zoo is more of a surgical knife than a blunt machete (how ironic). My 2 cents. Feel free to criticize/dissect my observations.

[bombbonne]

I'm planing on attending the Starcity 5k this weekend and it looks like i'm jumping on the band waggon of "big zoo". As an long time player fo "fast zoo", why would big zoo not want to run atleast 1 Ranger of Eaos? It seems great with hierarch to power it out early and grab two nactals at worst. Has this been tested and proven bad? Also, I was thinking of trying Jouton Grunt (sorry for the bad spelling) in the board since Madness is really big in this area, si this too counter productive with both KOTR and Grim Lavamancer?

[jandax]

If you run Grunt int he board, you'd probably side out Mancer, and hold onto KOTR until Grunt goes bye bye. However, there's probably better hate out there. And as for running one RoE, I don't see why not. Maybe in place of 1 KotR.

[bombbonne]

You're probably right that there is a better answer than the grunt. Also, I haven't seen any copies of Sylvan Liibrary in any of the big zoo lists, that card seems to good not to play.

I'm thinking about putting vexing shusher in the board for the counter top decks, but my question is REB just better?

[Fuzzy]

I'm thinking about putting vexing shusher in the board for the counter top decks, but my question is REB just better?

REB can hit Show and Tell. Just saying.

[troopatroop]

Ranger of Eos is fine, I playtested him a bit. My main gripe with him is that he is a 4drop that doesn't do anything NOW. Yes the two Wild Nacatls he finds are a BEATING in two turns, and would definitely help against Landstill or something. What Ranger helps you do is rebuild after board sweep, which can be very strong for a deck like this. I would need to test him more in the Big Zoo shell, but he doesn't seem bad. I just don't really see room for him maindeck, I think Elspeth is the superior 4drop. Possibly a few in the board for Control matches?

REB is better than Vexing Shusher imo. It is much more versatile, and Kills Jace the Mindsculptor like nothing else.

[bombbonne]

Good point....here is my list I plan on playing this sunday. Sideboard is not solid yet but its what i'm working with now.

4 Windswept Heath
4 Woodedfoothills
2 Arid mesa
4 wasteland
1 horizon canopy
2 tiaga
2 plataue
1 savahna
1 forest
1 mountain
1 plains

4 goyf
4 Q Pridemage
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatal
1 Ranger of Eaos
3 KOTR

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain lightning
2 Slyvan Library
2 elspeth
4 PTE

SB
3 Leyline of Sanctaty
2 Krosen grip
4 Faiere Macoob
3 Mind Break Trap
3 REB

[justjake54]

I'm thinking about putting vexing shusher in the board for the counter top decks, but my question is REB just better?

I don't play Shusher anymore in the board as whenever anyone casts a force of will you should be happy, and Pridemage and Krosan Grip are already great answers for Counterbalance. REB isn't really any better for counterbalance because if you get it after they play counterbalance or if they play it while you are tapped out it's going to be pretty hard to kill that Counterbalance with an REB

[bombbonne]

Ok fair enough, what would you recomend I put in it's place? I feel as though I have nothing for the mirror or other creature decks like goblins. I've thought about something like lightning helix in the board for those MU's.

[jandax]

Yeah but when you have the REB already, it's going to eat a Force or that CB, assuming they didn't board the FoW out. Replace it with REB/Pyroblast. I doubt you'll regret it. It's also spot removal for blue decks, where shusher is a mana sucking bear. And then you get to run up against Painter/Stone and REB their REB :D

[Nelis]

Ok fair enough, what would you recomend I put in it's place? I feel as though I have nothing for the mirror or other creature decks like goblins. I've thought about something like lightning helix in the board for those MU's.

Just use Krosan Grip.

[jandax]

Triggered abilities can still go on the stack after splitsecond. But the 3cc is harder to counter. REB/Grip as a 3 off in the sideboard will serve anyone well. The fore is much more of a proactive card, where the latter is narrow hate. To view them in another way could lead one to making misplays or mistakes in sideboarding (as I have done in the past)

[justjake54]

Ok fair enough, what would you recomend I put in it's place? I feel as though I have nothing for the mirror or other creature decks like goblins. I've thought about something like lightning helix in the board for those MU's.

I've been putting 2 swords in the sideboard for creature matchups, it really gives you the edge in the mirror to control the board position. but you already have a good match up against goblins anyway with 4 paths and bolts/helix/chain as very effective removal against all their dudes. I like Helix in the main anyway, it has great synergy with Library and helps with the mirror, goblins and burn.

[Nelis]

I've been putting 2 swords in the sideboard for creature matchups, it really gives you the edge in the mirror to control the board position. but you already have a good match up against goblins anyway with 4 paths and bolts/helix/chain as very effective removal against all their dudes. I like Helix in the main anyway, it has great synergy with Library and helps with the mirror, goblins and burn.

And sometimes its better to have STP than Path. I wouldn't want to give Merfolk another land but dont mind giving them 2 or 3 life.

[dunk]

Sup guys,

Since I've started playing Legacy, Zoo became easily my petdeck. After some succes at the beginning with tradiitional Zoo, my results in the last weeks got a bit worse. I was unhappy with Ape / Lion and decided to give Steppe Lynx a try. Well, it was a desaster. It rarely made more damage then Ape, but forced me to mulligan more hands ( like, this 1 land hand is a borderline keep - if it has Ape. But with Lynx... *sigh* ) and was just horrible in creature Matchups.

I was a bit sceptical about Big Zoo, but at the end, gave it a try. I always hated losing to Wasteland in this format, so I wanted to play them myself. The addition of Hierarch also looked decent against other decks with Wasteland.
I participated in a 16 man, 4 round event with the following list:

2 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

4 Chain Lightning
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library

SB:
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt

Note: I've already tried the blue splash a few weeks ago, but found myself mulliganing out of events and rarely needed the Meddling Mages. Even if I did need them, my opponents never had trouble with him what disheartened me.

Round 1: Traditional Zoo

I mulled to 6 and kept 2 Wastes Forest Nacatl Path and Chain. I won the roll and play Nacatl, my opp follows with Taiga and Ape. A fetchland from the top helps me making my Nacatl bigger. I attacked and passed the turn, as I don't see a need to chain the Ape. Opp plays Plateau and Pridemage and attacks for 3. I draw Lavamancer, waste his green mana and play the Mancer. He in return kills it, but has no green mana now. I get another fetch and search for another dual, getting in with Nacatl and killing his Pridemage. He then kills my Nacatl and bashes with a 1/1 Ape. I don't see a reason to path his Ape as I think it will not matter. I get a goyf from the top, but decide against playing my Wasteland. A big mistake, since he just plays 2 Price of Progress and somehow Im dead now. Ugh, not good, I've thrown it away...
Game 2 and 3 are summed up fast - my draws are really good and his small crits die to my Bolts and Chains, while I draw a lot of Knights and Goyfs. G3 he even floods away. Phew, after throwing away g1 the story has a happy ending.

Round 2: Dredge

My opponent is a buddy, and I wonder he is dredging it up, since I'm used to him playing WB aggro or enchantress.
G1 he keeps a very loose hand to my slow draw of 2nd turn goyf 3rd turn knight. He is also a bit unlucky hitting not another dredger while I just waste his lands.
G2 I mull to 6 in a fine and fast hand, but with no hate except for lavamancer. He makes a few mistakes and I find a faery macabre in time, taking out his dredgers. Lavamancer and Wasteland keep him from doing anything relevant and I win.

Round 3: TES

Luckily I win the die roll and start with Turn 1 Nacatl. He goes of for 12 goblin tokens, but I just play a Pridemage and in Turn 3 Goyf and a 2nd Nacatl. Paired with some removal he can only bring me down to 2, then he has to chump while I waste his lands.
Game 2 I keep Canonist Pridemage and 5 lands. His start, once again is slow and Canonist disrupts him. Luckily he has no Deathmark in his wishboard, only Pyroclams. I waste his only red ressource and he is stuck for a few turns. Somehow I only draw into lands, but also a Gaddock. When he finally finds the red source I just follow up with Gaddock and Pridemage and beat him down in the following 3 turns.

Round 4: UGR control

Game 1 is pretty interesting. I have no 1 drop, but a turn 2 pridemage. My first Library gets forced, the 2nd one resolves but he has engineered explosives ( his only one in the main ). Ouch. Worst thing is, I have no creature but drew into useless paths. He assembles Countertop and my only hope is to get a Knight through. He brainstorms, shuffles and finally finds the firespout. The next turn I try an Elspeth, but he obv has also a Jace. With only a path in my hand left against his goyf, countertop and Jace I concedede.
Game 2 is less interesting, I keep a 4 land hand with Noble Mancer and Goyf. He handles my threats, assembles Countertop once again while I flood away. At some point he goes with Intuition for 2 Cyclelands and Loam and I just concede.


My matchups weren't that good, but a 3-1 against them was very satisfating. Wastelands helped a lot. My lost against control was a bit disappointing though.

[troopatroop]

Thanks for the report! Yeah, your combo matchups went really well! It seems like Wasteland was really great for you, and it's a shame you drew so poorly against UGR Counter-Top. My testing against Counter-Top has been primarily against Dreadstill, but I've been testing against it the past couple nights. Here is my Sideboard, which has been really solid for that matchup.

3 Silence
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Duergar Hedge Mage
3 Pyroblast

I side out 4 Chain Lightning, 4 Lightning Bolt, 3 Grim Lavamancer, for 2 Krosan Grip, 2 Duergar Hedge-Mage, 3 Pyroblast, and 4 Meddling Mage.
I find that without the burn spells clogging my hand, the only way I'm going to lose is if they assemble Counter-Top and I'm holding a bunch of Path's, or if they Manascrew me. Pre-board Dreadstill is 50/50 with us, but I've found it's about 60/40 to 65/35 Post board in our favor. All of our cards are just so good against them, and if they try to board in a bunch of answers they dilute their deck. You can really grind out control decks with tight patient play, and your threats are very hard to deal with. Congrats on doing well.

[lordofthepit]

Hey troop, I like the blue splash for Meddling Mage too, but do you think having 2 blue duals is necessary? I feel like I want to cut the Volcanic Island and run a basic mountain or an extra Taiga there instead.

[troopatroop]

Hey troop, I like the blue splash for Meddling Mage too, but do you think having 2 blue duals is necessary? I feel like I want to cut the Volcanic Island and run a basic mountain or an extra Taiga there instead.

You're right that Tropical Island is better than Volcanic Island by a longshot, but how is a Mountain better than Volcanic? I can see wanting another Taiga over it, but if they waste your blue you might not ever get the color again. I cut Skarrg, the Rage Pits for a Fetchland, and the manabase has worked perfectly ever since. Also, sometimes it's even better to be able to fetch the Volcanic Island. A situation the other day involved me with only a Savannah and Fetchland in hand, with Meddling Mage/Creatures/and Burn. I played Savannah Nacatl, and next turn was able to fetch the Volcanic, play my Meddling Mage, and have mana for burn spells later. It has it's uses, mostly there to protect against Wasteland.

[troopatroop]

Srry for the double post, but I've got things to say, and fear I've derailed the thread. I've done alot more testing, and I must say that my faith in the blue splash has wavered. I still feel that Meddling Mage is very good, but Volcanic Island has started to really bother me. Tropical Island has always been fine, but Volcanic is nearly almost always awful. In a stretch of 6 or so games, I drew it in my opening 7, and it always severely hindered my ability to play the game, often losing me the game after Wastelands and Stifle (actual Legacy). Meddling Mage could be the greatest card ever, but mulliganing less will always be more important. I go back to the top 8 I made where I lost to Goblins with mana denial, and sat with Volcanic and Skarrg, the Rage Pits. Never again! Meddling Mage is such a fun card to play, and I had fun with it, but I can't support the splash anymore. This deck just depends on it's lands too much, and there shouldn't be one that you don't want to see. I played with two Trop instead, and it also ended up being problematic, I didn't have enough Red sources. In a combo heavy metagame I might still play it, but for now...

Big Zoo

4 Windsweapt Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth

So that's where the deck is at for me. I'm playing with other good two drops in the board, like Gaddock Teeg and Tin Street Hooligan. I've been looking for SB options to strengthen the Merfolk and Goblins matchup. That might seem random, but it's more difficult when you have creatures you don't want to Pyroclasm away. It's a very simple list, but It's extremely consistent. I've been looking at the 4th Noble Hierarch and really considering it, but 3 has been a magic number so far.

Theoretical SB
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pyroblast
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Silence

[CorpT]

I tested for quite awhile against Supreme Blue the other day and Elspeth was a house. I ended up finishing about 50/50 with him and most of that was due to Elspeth. I really just can't get behind Noble Hierarch though. It is really such a weak play most of the time, that I don't see myself playing it. I understand what it helps you do, but I really just don't think that's what the deck wants to be doing. I play Zoo because it is consistent, not to play 2nd turn KotR.

I was also not impressed by Wasteland. I tried that as well and it never felt like it added much to me. It was never really relevant and without some other type of disruption, it always felt like a waste.

My list is currently:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast

2 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Karakas
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah

SB:
3 Pyroblast
3 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile

The Karakas main may become a Plains and the Karakas may go to the board. I really like having a good answer to Emrakul somewhere, but Elspeth demands a slightly higher W count.

I feel like this build is doing exactly what I want my Zoo deck to do: it is fast, it is consistent and it is reliable.

[jandax]

Do 21 lands provide enough of a manabase to get Elspeth out? I realize that hitting it on turn four is usually not the play, but otheriwse, with such a typical manabase, when do you find yourself playing it?


@troop, Are the silences for Storm/Combo hate?

[CorpT]

Do 21 lands provide enough of a manabase to get Elspeth out? I realize that hitting it on turn four is usually not the play, but otheriwse, with such a typical manabase, when do you find yourself playing it?

It was never that big of an issue. Sure, it wasn't a windmill slam on turn 3 or anything, but I never had it in hand and couldn't cast it. The thing about Elspeth is that she's something you don't really want/need early. She's a late game card for those games that do go long, so not being able to cast it until turn 5 or 6 is not that bad. And in a pinch, you do have Path and Knight for additional mana.

[sporenfrosch1411]

Smite me for it, but has anyone considered Natural Order in the Slot for Elspeth?
I mean, with Sylvan Library you should be able to "stay away" from drawing Progenitus (in most cases) and i think this is a better finisher and lategame option than Elspeth is.
I haven't testet it, but on the paper it looks quite appealing to my eye :)

i'd go -2 Knight of the Reliquary -2 Elspeth, +3 Natural Order +1 Progenitus (just an example, finetuning is welcome here)

[Elrafa29]

Hi to all:

I´m a usually user of zoo deck, and i have tested a lot of versions, changing a lot of cards, and trying to have a "tuned" list of my own.

This is the last deck I have played, i want your opinion.

4 Qasali pridemage
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the reliquary
3 Grim Lavamancer


4 Lightning bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Sudden Shock
3 Path to exile
2 Fireblast

2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa´s Jitte

4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept breath
1 Karakas
2 Mountains
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah

It´s a unusually list taking the best cards i think and trying to be more efficient, not so explosive than a normal zoo list, but at the middrange it´s better i think.

I use Stoneforge cause i´m tired to draw a stteppe lynx at middrange and say" And now what?", but drawing an stoneforge u can search a jitte and can be decisive for the game.

Also i play sudden shock against chain lightning cause i´m tired seeing mother of runes laughing of me too, or qasali breaking my jitte, and i say STOP! only 2 damages vs 3 of the chain, but more decisive i think.

And I play Gaddock and Fireblast together cause its very dificult to have both of them at the same time, and the oppo surely wants to kill Gaddock, so when he kills him, u can use Fireblast.

Plz say me what do u think!! thx for all!

[CorpT]

Hi to all:

2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic

3 Lightning Helix
3 Sudden Shock
2 Umezawa´s Jitte

It´s a unusually list taking the best cards i think and trying to be more efficient, not so explosive than a normal zoo list, but at the middrange it´s better i think.


If you want to play Midrange, Elspeth is far better than most of these cards. SFM is really, really slow and weak. Even getting a Jitte, which is pretty easy for a lot of decks to deal with, isn't enough. You're talking about spending 6 mana to get to a position where, if you have a creature, you can hopefully attack and get 2 counters on it. And, unless you're using those counters to pick off creatures or gain life, aren't that useful until the next turn when you can try to attack again.

Lightning Helix and Sudden Shock are.... just bad. Even in a Midrange deck, they're just not good enough. Gaddock Teeg is fine, but 2/2 for 2 is not what I want in my Zoo deck. I want 4/5 for 1. I'm of the opinion that wasting slots, especially main deck on situational cards like Teeg, unless you can tutor for them is a waste. In this case, you are only playing 2 so your chance of having them when you need them is low. But, because they're not very useful in a ton of matchups, your chance of having them when you don't want them is pretty high.

Just MO.

[jandax]

Six mana and two cards, that's the basic Stoneforge interaction on the game state. At four mana and One card, Elspeth is indeed leagues better when it generates card advantage by itself. I play Teeg/FB together, it's only a problem if you make it one. Agreed with CorpT on all his points.

[troopatroop]

@ CorpT: You don't play Wasteland, which would explain why you don't like Hierarch. I also do not buy that Elspeth is easy to cast for you. You're only playing 21 lands and 0 Hierarch. You want to protect yourself from Wasteland/Stifle/Daze, and playing Elspeth does NOT do that. My question is for you, how do you justify not playing Wasteland?

Also, thank you for preaching about how SFM is bad here. He isn't big enough at 2 mana! This deck can do bigger and better things with it's cards/mana, and removal in response to equiping will always be something worth avoiding. I really hate Stoneforge Mystic in Zoo, but it's good in decks that need their Jitte more. This one really doesn't.

@ Jandax: Yes, Silence is for Storm. I like that I can wait until the last possible moment to Silence them in response to anything, and they lose all of the cards they've played that turn. It's also great against Belcher for the same reason.

@ Natural Order: I think it's Win More. Obviously Progenitus is good, but people get beer goggles with it. All of our creatures (especially Goyf+Knight) are the monsters of the format, meaning they should win the game if they're in play anyways. Why would you want to sac them to get a Progenitus, when they're already winning for you. Remove their blockers, Swing for the win, is the gameplan. Natural Order is clunky, and drawing Progenitus is downright awful. I'm sure it could steal games, but I do not like it here.

[CorpT]

@ CorpT: You don't play Wasteland, which would explain why you don't like Hierarch. I also do not buy that Elspeth is easy to cast for you. You're only playing 21 lands and 0 Hierarch. You want to protect yourself from Wasteland/Stifle/Daze, and playing Elspeth does NOT do that. My question is for you, how do you justify not playing Wasteland?

Also, thank you for preaching about how SFM is bad here. He isn't big enough at 2 mana! This deck can do bigger and better things with it's cards/mana, and removal in response to equiping will always be something worth avoiding. I really hate Stoneforge Mystic in Zoo, but it's good in decks that need their Jitte more. This one really doesn't.

Maybe it's a meta thing. I really don't run into any Stifle or Daze. Even Merfolk around me isn't playing Stifle. Wasteland isn't the most fun to run into, but it's also not that back breaking.

I really never had issues casting Elspeth, but I wasn't running into Stifle/Wasteland either. Nor was that the reason I wanted to play Elspeth. I wanted Elspeth to combat CounterTop/Jace/Firespout decks. Elspeth did that for me in spades. She was FoWed once, but otherwise I had no issues resolving her because they rely so heavily on CB that they often don't have a Counter for her. And once resolved, she either churned out dudes or Jumped my guys.

As far as not running Wasteland... I tried it. My issue with it is that I feel like Wasteland on it's own doesn't do enough. Wasteland + Stifle is amazing. Wasteland + Port is good. Wasteland + Daze is decent. Wasteland + .... nothing just doesn't do enough for me. It's not like we are Wastelanding Dark Depths or anything. In this case Wasteland is only being used to disrupt mana. So that means Wasteland is really only useful in the following situations:
1) They are slightly mana screwed to begin with
2) We are about to kill them and they are about to stabilize

To me, only 2 is really valid. I don't expect my opponents to keep bad hands. And besides, if they are slightly mana screwed, aren't we likely to win that without Wasteland anyway? So, that leaves 2. How often does that happen? Not a whole lot in my experience.

Additionally, there is a significant trend to more basics in a lot of the problem matchup decks. I guess my question back would be: in what MUs is Wasteland useful? From practice and Theorycraft:
Merfolk: Killing Mutavaults is good, but do we need any help with this MU?
Goblins: Pretty useless, but a decent MU anyway
Supreme Blue: Was not that useful to me when I tested this. They have enough basics to not worry about it.
TES: Ok, but only if they're struggling anyway. This MU is bad enough that slowing it down slightly while adding disruption doesn't seem like the right way to fix it.
Landstill: Decent because their mana tends to be a little shaky.
UG Survival: Not that good. Sure, they need mana, but are you really going to use it turn 2 before they explode?

I'm also not a huge fan of the Wasteland - Path to Exile anti-synergy. Obviously it's not the worst in the world, but it's certainly not ideal. Additionally, Wasteland loses a lot of it's value in two scenarios: 1) they know you have Wastelands and can fetch basics, 2) they think you have Price and can fetch basics.

[troopatroop]

That's a lengthy response, but you don't seem to understand variance. It's not about keeping bad hands, Wasteland will mana screw your opponent. How devastating it is to them will depend on their draw, but in time you will see it shine. In tournament play, Wasteland has been absolutely crucial. Yes we don't play Stifle or Daze, but that's all people think about with Wasteland. If you play Turn 1 Hierarch and Waste them turn 2, you've effectively restarted the game with you at 2! mana and them at 0. Hierarch is our Stifle, except that it gets us +1 instead of them -1. This makes alot of sense in a midrange deck! Also, if you have creatures on the board and you waste them, you're effectively getting another attack step. If you're not playing against Stifle+Waste then congratulations, you're dodging your toughest matchup.

Also, them fetching basics isn't bad for us, it keeps them even more vulnerable actually. Wasteland still helps cast a bunch of my cards too.

[jandax]

@ CorpT: You don't play Wasteland, which would explain why you don't like Hierarch. I also do not buy that Elspeth is easy to cast for you. You're only playing 21 lands and 0 Hierarch. You want to protect yourself from Wasteland/Stifle/Daze, and playing Elspeth does NOT do that. My question is for you, how do you justify not playing Wasteland?

Also, thank you for preaching about how SFM is bad here. He isn't big enough at 2 mana! This deck can do bigger and better things with it's cards/mana, and removal in response to equiping will always be something worth avoiding. I really hate Stoneforge Mystic in Zoo, but it's good in decks that need their Jitte more. This one really doesn't.

@ Jandax: Yes, Silence is for Storm. I like that I can wait until the last possible moment to Silence them in response to anything, and they lose all of the cards they've played that turn. It's also great against Belcher for the same reason.

@ Natural Order: I think it's Win More. Obviously Progenitus is good, but people get beer goggles with it. All of our creatures (especially Goyf+Knight) are the monsters of the format, meaning they should win the game if they're in play anyways. Why would you want to sac them to get a Progenitus, when they're already winning for you. Remove their blockers, Swing for the win, is the gameplan. Natural Order is clunky, and drawing Progenitus is downright awful. I'm sure it could steal games, but I do not like it here.

I beat belcher first round of the side event in Amsterdam :D I just had three trusty MBT's. For four tournaments they've always been in my opener. Second game I opened seven spells, two of which were traps and I thought hard about keeping, knowing I'd win through TS/Duress but that deck doesn't play them. I mulled into a nother one and crushed

What do you Silence in response vs belcher? An LED/RItual in the middle of a spell chain?

[troopatroop]

I beat belcher first round of the side event in Amsterdam :D I just had three trusty MBT's. For four tournaments they've always been in my opener. Second game I opened seven spells, two of which were traps and I thought hard about keeping, knowing I'd win through TS/Duress but that deck doesn't play them. I mulled into a nother one and crushed

What do you Silence in response vs belcher? An LED/RItual in the middle of a spell chain?

You have to think about what theyre going for, it always depends. If they Crack LED with Burning Wish on the stack, that's obviously a good time. If you think they're chaining mana for belcher + activation, Silence in response to the last Ritual you can stand, but don't forget about ESG and SSG to get to 4 mana for Belcher. Against Storm, you can at least Silence in response to Duress.

[CorpT]

That's a lengthy response, but you don't seem to understand variance. It's not about keeping bad hands, Wasteland will mana screw your opponent. How devastating it is to them will depend on their draw, but in time you will see it shine. In tournament play, Wasteland has been absolutely crucial. Yes we don't play Stifle or Daze, but that's all people think about with Wasteland. If you play Turn 1 Hierarch and Waste them turn 2, you've effectively restarted the game with you at 2! mana and them at 0. Hierarch is our Stifle, except that it gets us +1 instead of them -1. This makes alot of sense in a midrange deck! Also, if you have creatures on the board and you waste them, you're effectively getting another attack step. If you're not playing against Stifle+Waste then congratulations, you're dodging your toughest matchup.

Also, them fetching basics isn't bad for us, it keeps them even more vulnerable actually. Wasteland still helps cast a bunch of my cards too.

Why don't you play Bant Aggro?

Not to be too flippant, but it seems like that's what you should be playing. If I wanted to run tempo cards, I'd run good tempo cards, not mediocre ones like Noble.

It just seems like you're going to run into situations where you draw your aggro cards when you want to draw tempo cards and draw tempo cards when you want to draw aggro cards. Because you have no real means of controlling your draw, you're basically at the mercy of the top of your deck to decide how you get to play. That's not a situation I want to put myself into. I play Zoo because it is consistent. Putting tempo cards in an aggro deck doesn't help that. I want low variance, not high.

[troopatroop]

Why don't you play Bant Aggro?

Not to be too flippant, but it seems like that's what you should be playing. If I wanted to run tempo cards, I'd run good tempo cards, not mediocre ones like Noble.

It just seems like you're going to run into situations where you draw your aggro cards when you want to draw tempo cards and draw tempo cards when you want to draw aggro cards. Because you have no real means of controlling your draw, you're basically at the mercy of the top of your deck to decide how you get to play. That's not a situation I want to put myself into. I play Zoo because it is consistent. Putting tempo cards in an aggro deck doesn't help that. I want low variance, not high.

Zoo has a much stronger Merfolk and Goblins matchup than Bant. Playing Burn spells and Path makes my deck extremely flexible. I play Zoo because I expect to play against Aggro, and Big Zoo because I want to have the edge against normal Zoo. If what you are really looking for is consistancy, you wouldn't be playing Steppe Lynx. Agree to disagree, but Wasteland is godlike.

[jandax]

Zoo has a much stronger Merfolk and Goblins matchup than Bant. Playing Burn spells and Path makes my deck extremely flexible. I play Zoo because I expect to play against Aggro, and Big Zoo because I want to have the edge against normal Zoo. If what you are really looking for is consistancy, you wouldn't be playing Steppe Lynx. Agree to disagree, but Wasteland is godlike.

Especially coming from a deck that plays Wild Nacatl. Sure, your average Joe catches on, but not after that X source of mana was Wasted. Little tempo swings like that combined with the deck's consistency, and big Zoo is consistent, it might just be the Next Level Zoo of the metagame. The past two Fall sets have provided a lot of weaponry for the deck; Nacalt, Arid Mesa, Steppe Lynx and so on. Maybe we'll see something of the badass from Scars, hoping the trend follows

[CorpT]

Zoo has a much stronger Merfolk and Goblins matchup than Bant. Playing Burn spells and Path makes my deck extremely flexible. I play Zoo because I expect to play against Aggro, and Big Zoo because I want to have the edge against normal Zoo. If what you are really looking for is consistancy, you wouldn't be playing Steppe Lynx. Agree to disagree, but Wasteland is godlike.

So what decks specifically do you want Wasteland against? In what scenarios against those decks do you want Wasteland?

So far, your argument for Wasteland has been "Wasteland is godlike" which is not a very compelling argument. And if it is so godlike, why are you only running 3? And if Turn 1 Noble into Turn 2 Wasteland is so good, why only 3 of each? It doesn't seem like you're going to get these amazing hands very often if you're only running 3 of each of them.

[troopatroop]

If you're skeptical of the 3/3 split I understand, but I think it makes alot of sense. You're right in thinking that Noble Hierarch isn't much of a threat on it's own, and you're right that Wasteland isn't always what you want. Playing 3 of each greatly reduces your chance of drawing doubles which is especially important with Hierarch, because the first is amazing and the second is near dead. Multiple Wastes however can always be devastating, but I've found I can still draw them pretty frequently with only 3. The package only takes up 6 slots in the deck. I'm very tempted to run the 4th Wasteland, but the deck is also really color hungry. Did I mention how Noble Hierarch helps with that? I see them in conjunction with eachother all the time.

Specific cards Wasteland is good against? : Dual Lands (which everyone is playing), Mishra's Factory, Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, Mosswort Bridge, Academy Ruins, Treetop Village, etc

The tempo just swings the game in your favor. Turn 1 Nacatl, Turn 2 Hierarch, Waste is also very good. Exalted counts.

Edit: Speaking of outlandish decklists... I'm gonna try this out.

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah

SB
3 Krosan Grip
3 Silence
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyroblast
4 Tormod's Crypt


I was thinking about what I dislike about the deck, and what comes to mind immediately is #1: Path + Wasteland, #2 Grim Lavamancer + Knight of the Reliquary. So I took a page out of the New Horizons playbook and tried Terravore. It's really -3 Grim Lavamancer +3 Terravore which actually makes alot of sense! They both give you reach, but in very different ways. Grim Lavamancer has been either great or awful for me. I find that he's much weaker against Countertop decks. It's great against Merfolk and Goblins, but don't we have a good matchup there without him anyways? Terravore is an absolute monster, and the deck hasn't skimped in Removal at all. I'm actually considering the Lifegain from Lightning Helix over Chain Lightning, I think it might matter for this deck. Note the 4x Hierarch and Wasteland. Thoughts?

[ivanpei]

Wasteland is good by itself without any other mana denial cards if you can afford to run it. The rock decks, landstill etc etc run wastelands instead of extra duals/fetches because it can occasionally mana screw an opponent and win you the game. Also, if your opponent is not having any mana troubles, you can use it to power out your own spells, no draw back there. Big zoo can afford to run it because it plays more cards that require the colourless mana like elspeth, KOTR, sylvan library etc etc. We can't play 4 wastelands because wastelands don't replace mana sources as zoo is very colour hungry, it replaces spells, hence running too many lowers your threat count too much.

Its not just good when you have a heirarch, its good at prolonging the early game period. If you lead with kitty/grim/goyf/whatever 2 drop. You can use wastelands to delay your opponents sweeper/ natural order/ any bomb. It is like a timewalk, that gives you time to swing one more time before the bomb lands. In conjuction with KOTRs, wastelands go from fairly good to very good. It pumps knight + knight can grab more wastelands to totally lock an opponent out of the game on occasions. IMO, wastelands have to be played in big zoo. Its awesome. Troopatroop knows what he's doing.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Grim is a large reason why our merfolk matchup is as favorable as it is, and without grim our goblins matchup is actually not very good. Goblins is no longer the walk it used to be, and if we take out our best cards against them we're asking to lose to them, especially since it seems like they're on the upswing right now.

[ivanpei]

I'm with hungry on this one, Grim has always been fantastic for me. I usually play at least 3. You lose alot of creature clearing power without him. Not only is he good against tribal, I've won alot of games due to grim activation + bolt effect taking out a goyf/knight on the other end. Or finishing off a goyf when my own goyf bounces off it. The reach it provides is invaluable. I can see the benefits of terravore, but 2 is the max I'd play. Six 3cc drops seem like a nightmare. I'm having a hard time emptying my hand as it is with 4 kotrs and 2 elspeths. Cheers!