[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Gruby]

Oh man! I tottaly forgot about Vraska :) I'll have to try her out!
Whats your thoughts about sarkhan vol/sarkhan the mad? Can sarkhan vol steal Emmy? Sarkhan the mad "0" looks cool with sensei's top and he is additional sac outlet.

[Bobmans]

Oh man! I tottaly forgot about Vraska :) I'll have to try her out!
Whats your thoughts about sarkhan vol/sarkhan the mad? Can sarkhan vol steal Emmy? Sarkhan the mad "0" looks cool with sensei's top and he is additional sac outlet.
Vraska is ninja.
Sarkhan the Mad can be good and can be really not what youd want to be doing. His 0 ability conflicts with Courser of Kruphix and his ultimate and -2 ability also do not seem to work together. If always felt him to much offbeat.
Never tried Sarkhan Vol, but i think Liliana already fixes what might make his -2 ability good. His +1 might ve relevant sometimes, but mostly it is not. Although his ultimate is juice, Vraska is the better in that regard.
I have also tried Domri Rade. And with Top and Courser out this is really awesome, but casting Domri Rade feels like bringing a knife to a gunfight.

[Whitefaces]

Cornered Market

I didn't even know this existed! What matchups does it come in against?

[BTY]

Garruk relentless looks cool but i often have problems with flipping then he gets abrupt

I have been playing Garruk Relentless in the sideboard for decks like Miracles, or anything else where it looks reasonable and I have been loving it. Its primary job for me has been to shit out tokens and it is pretty good at that. I have played it some against Junk, Deadguy and Shardless BUG and I have been very satisfied when it has eaten a creature and died to abrupt decay, it means 1 less decay for my scavenging ooze, Liliana, or if you have to end up tapping out for deed.

[Paranoid__Android]

I'm going to play in a small local tournament in few weeks. I wanna try sdematt's version of Rhino Two Towers. Metagame is an Reanimator, Jund, Shardless BUG, Oops! All Spells, Maverick, ANT, Death without Taxes, etc. I could use a little help with sideboard. I was thinking something like:

3-4x Leyline of the Void
1-2x Massacre
1x Perish
1x 4th Deed
2x Ethersworn Cannonist
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Leyline of Sanctity

Do I need some changes?

[sdematt]

To combat Maverick and DnT, Id suggest a couple of Deluge and a Golgari Charm.

shardless and Jund are generally good matchups. From Jund, worry sbout Fires. Play a Cranial extraction.

For combo, youll need hand disruption and Teegs. Dryad militant is an excellent card too. For reanimator, you can run surgicals or extirpates very easily. You also have scooze and drs main.

Your meta looks devoid of Miracles and Delver, so you need to slant your board away from Grips and Carpets. Try:

2 gaddock teeg
2 surgical
1 extirpate
2 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 dryad militant
2 thoughtseize
3 hymn to tourach
1 cranial extraction

I might start trying Hymn as supplemental hand disruption if I know I wont face Miracles/Stoneblade and I have extra slots from Carpet's absence.

[jbone2016]

Cornered Market

I didn't even know this existed! What matchups does it come in against?

It was a hedge against MUD/12post...maybe even elves. Other then Wave of Vitriol or plain ol Armageddon, the big ramp decks are a pain.

[Paranoid__Android]

To combat Maverick and DnT, Id suggest a couple of Deluge and a Golgari Charm.

shardless and Jund are generally good matchups. From Jund, worry sbout Fires. Play a Cranial extraction.

For combo, youll need hand disruption and Teegs. Dryad militant is an excellent card too. For reanimator, you can run surgicals or extirpates very easily. You also have scooze and drs main.

Your meta looks devoid of Miracles and Delver, so you need to slant your board away from Grips and Carpets. Try:

2 gaddock teeg
2 surgical
1 extirpate
2 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 dryad militant
2 thoughtseize
3 hymn to tourach
1 cranial extraction

I might start trying Hymn as supplemental hand disruption if I know I wont face Miracles/Stoneblade and I have extra slots from Carpet's absence.

Since I don't have Cranial, should Memoricide do th same job? :D
And, what hands are best to keep? I was testing on C-trice and it was doing really good, but some starting hands were quite weird. And I've leard that, if I play first, Cabal is always naming Brainstorm. Haha! :D

[sdematt]

Since I don't have Cranial, should Memoricide do th same job? :D
And, what hands are best to keep? I was testing on C-trice and it was doing really good, but some starting hands were quite weird. And I've leard that, if I play first, Cabal is always naming Brainstorm. Haha! :D

Well, statistically, if 70% of decks are playing 4 of it, it's the best chance in the dark. I'd name it only if you had NO idea what to name, but generally, you want to name what your hand might die to. I'd be more likely to call it if my opponent mulligans since people generally keep mulls with Brainstorm to help fix. Punishing that makes it much, much worse.

Memoricide will do the job, I guess.

-Matt

[Plague Sliver]

There was that old school Feldman Dredge primer that said it best. With Cabal Therapy, name whatever card you're most afraid of. If they don't have it, then you've done your job.

Suddenly remembering my blind Therapies for:
- 2x Force of Will
- 2x Stifle

:cool:

[Brael]

Well, our local legacy nights finally started up, they're only every other week and limited to 3 rounds for time reasons but it's still some Legacy. The tournaments themselves are full proxy so there's a lot of people that just play any tier 1 deck they like, with perfect card availability the meta is fairly competitive. After getting Burn out of my system for the first couple tournaments (Price of Progress is so good when people overplay duals) I've been playing Nic Fit. I've played it 3 times now and each time I've walked away with a winning record at 3-0, 2-1, and 2-1 so I've been pretty happy with it. I don't remember all of the matches right now but last week involved playing against Metalworker (2-0), Reanimator (1-2), and Esper Stoneblade (2-1).

The list I'm playing right now is was inspired by the Zachary Schulz list in the primer but it's a bit different since I've been playing it. Basically I'm starting to learn what does and doesn't work and want to tweak my deck from here.

To the best of my memory this is what I'm currently playing, it's 61 cards.

//Land 21
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp

//Creatures 17
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Trinket Mage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Notion Thief
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Frost Titan

//Artifact 6
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
2 Birthing Pod

//Enchantment 4
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library

//Instant 6
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Brainstorm

//Sorcery 7
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

//Sideboard 15
4 Force of Will
1 Envelop
2 Riptide Pilferer
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Innocent Blood


The main issues with my list right now as I've seen in play is that my balance of top/library/brainstorm is off. Library is making the deeds worse while Brainstorm is often times just a top that I can't reuse. Would changing the list to 2 Top/1 Library/2 Brainstorm be better? Originally I thought 1 Top would be fine because Trinket Mage is effectively a second copy, but I find Trinket Mage's tutor effect to be overloaded. Sometimes I just need it to find me removal and pass on the Top. Being able to lighten that burden almost makes me want to go all the way up to 3 Tops. Am I completely out of my mind to think I can go -1 Library, -2 Brainstorm +2 Top +1 Creature (more on the creature later)?

Next comes the creature, I've played Pod in Standard, Modern, and now Legacy since the card was printed and I've come up with various ideas as to how many creatures I need. Generally I've come to the idea that 18 creatures is the absolute minimum (and you see that in my list 17+Arbor). I hit that but there's one big hole in my creatures right now, my 2 drop slot is small. I would like to work a Scavenging Ooze into the list, but I don't really have anywhere to cut from. Does anyone have a creature suggestion I could trim on? Maybe a Strix? Alternatively I could go with Nihil Spellbomb, over a Chalice of the Void I suppose but that puts even more work on the Trinket Mage. The advantage to Ooze though is that GSZ has some holes right now. I can cast it for 0, 1, 3, or 5. I have nothing green at 2 or 4 for it to hit and the Ooze would partially fix that problem. If someone can think of a green 4 drop to use I'm all ears.

When it comes to Frost Titan he has been fantastic. I know Grave Titan is usually a little higher used here but Frost Titan is amazing. Last week he beat a Blightsteel by tapping it forever, yesterday in a game for fun he was my answer to a Creeping Tar Pit out of Shardless BUG, he can color screw opponents, and more. I find the pay extra mana clause on him doesn't usually come up very often but his ability to tap things down can't be understated.

My last comment for now is in the sideboard. One of the creatures in Fate Reforged is Merciless Executioner how do people feel about this over Innocent Blood? Is 3 power (and the ability to pod for it) worth 2 mana?

[Whitefaces]

Looking forward to trying this idiot out in BUG pod :)

http://mythicspoiler.com/dtk/cards/ruthlessdeathfang.jpg

Pitches to FoW too!

I realize it's not going to be as good as other 6 drops, but podding into it then flashing back therapies etc seems like a lot of fun.

[Whitefaces]

The main issues with my list right now as I've seen in play is that my balance of top/library/brainstorm is off. Library is making the deeds worse while Brainstorm is often times just a top that I can't reuse. Would changing the list to 2 Top/1 Library/2 Brainstorm be better? Originally I thought 1 Top would be fine because Trinket Mage is effectively a second copy, but I find Trinket Mage's tutor effect to be overloaded. Sometimes I just need it to find me removal and pass on the Top. Being able to lighten that burden almost makes me want to go all the way up to 3 Tops. Am I completely out of my mind to think I can go -1 Library, -2 Brainstorm +2 Top +1 Creature (more on the creature later)?

Next comes the creature, I've played Pod in Standard, Modern, and now Legacy since the card was printed and I've come up with various ideas as to how many creatures I need. Generally I've come to the idea that 18 creatures is the absolute minimum (and you see that in my list 17+Arbor). I hit that but there's one big hole in my creatures right now, my 2 drop slot is small. I would like to work a Scavenging Ooze into the list, but I don't really have anywhere to cut from. Does anyone have a creature suggestion I could trim on? Maybe a Strix? Alternatively I could go with Nihil Spellbomb, over a Chalice of the Void I suppose but that puts even more work on the Trinket Mage. The advantage to Ooze though is that GSZ has some holes right now. I can cast it for 0, 1, 3, or 5. I have nothing green at 2 or 4 for it to hit and the Ooze would partially fix that problem. If someone can think of a green 4 drop to use I'm all ears.

When it comes to Frost Titan he has been fantastic. I know Grave Titan is usually a little higher used here but Frost Titan is amazing. Last week he beat a Blightsteel by tapping it forever, yesterday in a game for fun he was my answer to a Creeping Tar Pit out of Shardless BUG, he can color screw opponents, and more. I find the pay extra mana clause on him doesn't usually come up very often but his ability to tap things down can't be understated.

My last comment for now is in the sideboard. One of the creatures in Fate Reforged is Merciless Executioner how do people feel about this over Innocent Blood? Is 3 power (and the ability to pod for it) worth 2 mana?

First off, I think you're trying to cram too much toolbox into the deck. I've found 3 pods and 4 brainstorms has been enough, and GSZ just wasn't needed. As you've pointed out yourself, you have empty slots on the mana curve so aren't using it to its pull potential. The other awkward thing is it pushes you to play Dryad Arbor, which while being nice with pod to get a 1 drop (where's your DRS?!) it's terrible with Deed. While Library is a busted card, Pod is doing the heavy lifting here and it (library) dies to decay/your own deed too often. I wouldn't dream of cutting a Brainstorm, they're so much better than a one-shot-top. Being able to put creatures you want to pod into back into the deck is huge, as well as making the deck more streamlined, finding hate cards from the SB faster, hiding hate cards vs discard, putting the artifacts back for Trinket Make value...the list goes on. Just don't play less than 4 :)

With GSZ gone, that frees up a load of space, and you don't have to dedicate any of the creature curve to being green.

Trinket Mage is excellent, and I've included it in lots of my pod builds. But it's real power is finding SB cards. I wouldn't play Chalice of the Void or Pithing Needle maindeck. In some matchups they do nothing, and they have the same problem as library, getting swept away by deed. I'd put a Zuran Orb in the SB too if you have burn in your meta.

In regards to Merciless Executioner, we already had Fleshbag Marauder. I found being able to pod for it well worth the 2 mana.

[Paranoid__Android]

I was testing sdematt's Two Towers on Cockatrice and won every game. Games were against BUG Delver mostly. This is were Path to Exile really shined! Every BUG didn't had any basic to fetch in response. 12post was won 2:0 because of Cabal hitting and Rhino/DShaman -2 pressure.

First problem is lack of extra card drawing per turn. I was thinking of testing a few Phyrexian Arena. Life loss isn't really relevant since SCooze, DShaman, Rhino and Thragtusk give a ton of life. I had problems with Needle naming Top, so I thought of Arena as a replacement.

Second problem was that I was sometimes drawing too many lands. But I think that was pure ''luck'' really. Haha! :D

[Galentyn]

My experience with Sdematt's list was similar. Both in success and the feeling sometimes that the deck didn't need more life gain than was being given by the Rhinos. Basically, I'm testing -1 Thrag, +1 Titania. I agree it'd be nice to have more card draw but permanent based card draw has always been weak to our own Deeds. They've always had Karakas when I tried playing Tasigur over the 4th Rhino, but Tasigur is a Deed-proof way to draw cards late game and turn land flood into value.

The issue with Tasigur is that he's not Zenith-able but he might be something to consider if you're thinking about testing Phyrexian Arena.

Edit: There's also the pro-con of running Library for card advantage. If you're blowing yourself out with Deed (or working around the issue presented by permanent based card advantage), its possible it's better to trade your tops in for Library instead of running Arena

[jbone2016]

My experience with Sdematt's list was similar. Both in success and the feeling sometimes that the deck didn't need more life gain than was being given by the Rhinos. Basically, I'm testing -1 Thrag, +1 Titania. I agree it'd be nice to have more card draw but permanent based card draw has always been weak to our own Deeds. They've always had Karakas when I tried playing Tasigur over the 4th Rhino, but Tasigur is a Deed-proof way to draw cards late game and turn land flood into value.

The issue with Tasigur is that he's not Zenith-able but he might be something to consider if you're thinking about testing Phyrexian Arena.

I think if I was going to run Tasigur, I would run a Fierce Empath as well. Empath does grab Titans or the new g/w dragon if you feel like it.

[sdematt]

I think if you wanted more permanent based card draw, no one would blame you for cutting a Diabolic Intent and maybe shaving a land for 2 Sylvan Library. Sure, they die to deed, but when they're good, they're great.

I've found that sometimes I do flood. 23 lands isn't nothing. I think if I had to cut a land, it might be the Marsh Flats or one of the Towers. I really like the Towers, though, so I personally wouldn't cut them.

-Matt

[Bobmans]

I was testing sdematt's Two Towers on Cockatrice and won every game. Games were against BUG Delver mostly. This is were Path to Exile really shined! Every BUG didn't had any basic to fetch in response. 12post was won 2:0 because of Cabal hitting and Rhino/DShaman -2 pressure.

First problem is lack of extra card drawing per turn. I was thinking of testing a few Phyrexian Arena. Life loss isn't really relevant since SCooze, DShaman, Rhino and Thragtusk give a ton of life. I had problems with Needle naming Top, so I thought of Arena as a replacement.

Second problem was that I was sometimes drawing too many lands. But I think that was pure ''luck'' really. Haha! :D
Running Sylvan Library or Phyrexian Arena is probably fine, but you can't have it all.

I've always run 22 lands in a 61 card maindeck with 3 Sensei's Divining Top and 1 Courser of Kruphix. Top gets you 3 cards deep just like Library, but combined with fetch or GSZ you can shuffle and peek another 3 and get answers your looking for. Drawing them at instant speed or protecting something vs discard can be huge. The combination with Courser is that while you keep your regular draw it does also solve the problem from being flooded. Yes Peedle on Top sux, but that what we have Abrupt Decay and co. for.

Edit: cutting down on the two towers is a crime...

[Themucher]

Has anybody tried Ruric Thar in the jund version of this deck? i know its expensive but it does seem like a game breaker against quite a few decks

[Bobmans]

Has anybody tried Ruric Thar in the jund version of this deck? i know its expensive but it does seem like a game breaker against quite a few decks
Seems legit, might be a good finisher vs ANT. But a lot of times games vs storm are decided before we get to the point we are able to cast it anyway. So i think it might be to slow.

[Echelon]

Seems legit, might be a good finisher vs ANT. But a lot of times games vs storm are decided before we get to the point we are able to cast it anyway. So i think it might be to slow.

I've been toying with the idea of running Memoricides as anti-ANT cards. Might suffer the same issue of it being too slow but if you were to resolve it, you'd just have to name Tendrils of Agony to win the game on the spot.

[Bobmans]

I've been toying with the idea of running Memoricides as anti-ANT cards. Might suffer the same issue of it being too slow but if you were to resolve it, you'd just have to name Tendrils of Agony to win the game on the spot.
With 2 slaughter games in my jund list as a to go to standard i have never been able to fire it of even once against storm. Even coupled with 2 thoughtseize, 3 extirpate, 3 carpets and 2 REB's that matchup is though.

[Echelon]

Ever tried switching the Carpets for Dark Rituals?

Admittedly though, the Carpets are great vs anyDelver.dec so I'm not sure if that'd be the way to go.

[Bobmans]

Ever tried switching the Carpets for Dark Rituals?

Admittedly though, the Carpets are great vs anyDelver.dec so I'm not sure if that'd be the way to go.
Carpets are better then Veteran Explorers in that matchup. Carpets also forces them to play their manabase more thight creating slight room for errors.

Edit: offcourse every choice has its merits. Keeping 1 vetex in the list also creates room to go explosive with tower and slaughter games.

[Echelon]

VetEx lets you be rather explosive with Cabal Therapy... It's one of the last things I'd side out vs. ANT even though it gives them free land.

[Bobmans]

VetEx lets you be rather explosive with Cabal Therapy... It's one of the last things I'd side out vs. ANT even though it gives them free land.
I run a 3/4 split between vetex/drs. mostly i use drs to get a swing with therapy. Drs also has other advantages against ANT. Giving them free mana means speeding up their combo aswell. Pros and cons. Time to try 4/1 split since it has been bugging me for the last couple of weeks anyway. This will also make room for some other tech. 4th top and a md edict.

[sdematt]

ANT is a harder matchup. If you're waiting until Turn 4 to cast Cranial Extraction, it very well might be too late. Dryad Militant is quite good, or you could run a miser's Mindbreak Trap. Gaddock Teeg, discard, Safekeeper, Cranial, Militant, and Trap would be a nail in the coffin. I played against TES, which has more ways of winning, and it was quite close with this setup. Against ANT, it should be a bit better.

-Matt

[phazonmutant]

ANT is a harder matchup. If you're waiting until Turn 4 to cast Cranial Extraction, it very well might be too late. Dryad Militant is quite good, or you could run a miser's Mindbreak Trap. Gaddock Teeg, discard, Safekeeper, Cranial, Militant, and Trap would be a nail in the coffin. I played against TES, which has more ways of winning, and it was quite close with this setup. Against ANT, it should be a bit better.

-Matt

What about Leyline of Sanctitiy? Too narrow? Too bad Mindlock Orb shuts Nic Fit down too...that would be a sweet one against them.

[nedleeds]

Leyline is the best answer. It also buys time vs. Burn. Leyline isn't there to win the game it's there to buy time vs. storm. Plus Explorer Rock can cast it. Sack into Leyline, Explorer go with Cabal Therapy on deck is pretty good. Empty is a bit of a gamble in the face of deeds and/or charms. Buys you time to find Gaddock Teeg or some other lock piece / clock.

[Tittliewinks22]

Hello everyone. This is my first time posting after lurking for a long time. My current deck of choice is Miracles because I really enjoy control archetype. When I played modern (before the Deathrite Shaman ban) I was really into the Gifts Control deck, I have the same handle name over at mtgsalvation, if you are interested in my early support for that deck type you can go see it there. Anyway, I've been toying with various Nic-Fit shells, and none of them have the control or grindy element's that I'm use too. I decided to do things a little unorthodox and drop the Green Sun's Zenith package altogether and splashed blue into my Abzan build for the card Gifts Ungiven. This is the current list I've been running, and it just meshes so well together. Please check out this list and give me any input on some choices I may have overlooked.

Gift-Fit
1 Barren Moor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sun Titan
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Darkblast
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Raven's Crime
1 Unburial Rites

Sideboard isn't fully tested yet, but I've been having ok results with the following.
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dismember
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize


Some explanation of card interactions:
Gifts Ungiven - After various failed attempts to port my favorite ex-Modern deck to legacy I realized at 4 mana this card is just too slow to handle some of the faster match ups Legacy can produce. When I stumbled upon the Veteran Exploerer, Cabal Therapy combo, I knew this was the ramp package this card wanted.
This card is one of the hardest cards to get use to playing with. What you tutor with Gifts Ungiven varies greatly depending on your board state. Here are two common packages that I get when play:

Sun Titan or Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite + Unburial Rites - Way to cheat a fatty into play. While it may not be the most cost effective reanimation spell in legacy, its ability to flashback is what makes a lot of these packages more resilient.

Life from the Loam + Raven's Crime + Wasteland + Barren Moor - Reusable hand disruption and land destruction.

Not every package is a combo, sometimes you just grab a ton of value cards and benefit. Lingering Souls + Cabal Therapy + Eternal Witness + Unburial Rites - No matter what your opponent chooses, you get every card in this package available to you!

The two things that set this deck apart from its modern version are the additions of Cabal Therapy and Pernicious Deeds. With the few dredge cards in the deck, being able to hit Cabal Therapy has been huge. Having a Pernicious Deeds with Sun Titan can lock up a board pretty quickly as well.

Anyway, Please test out the deck for yourselves, I would love some input on any ideas I may have overlooked. Thank you.

[litenkatt]

^

You need Iona somewhere in the 75, that's certain

[Galentyn]

Your deck has the same issues as it does in modern except the weaknesses are magnified due to Legacy's higher power level.

Some of the weaknesses are:

- No counter spells.
- Soft to spell combo.
- Soft to decks that go bigger.
- Soft to wasteland
- A lot of emphasis on 1-for-1s as opposed to say Jund, which emphasizes 2 for 1s.
- Few ways to generate card advantage
- Threat light. (no GSZ)
- Getting Gift-Rites countered means you spent 8 mana doing nothing. It's a huge blow out against Remand in Modern and completely unacceptable in Legacy.

[Brael]

First off, I think you're trying to cram too much toolbox into the deck. I've found 3 pods and 4 brainstorms has been enough, and GSZ just wasn't needed. As you've pointed out yourself, you have empty slots on the mana curve so aren't using it to its pull potential. The other awkward thing is it pushes you to play Dryad Arbor, which while being nice with pod to get a 1 drop (where's your DRS?!) it's terrible with Deed. While Library is a busted card, Pod is doing the heavy lifting here and it (library) dies to decay/your own deed too often. I wouldn't dream of cutting a Brainstorm, they're so much better than a one-shot-top. Being able to put creatures you want to pod into back into the deck is huge, as well as making the deck more streamlined, finding hate cards from the SB faster, hiding hate cards vs discard, putting the artifacts back for Trinket Make value...the list goes on. Just don't play less than 4 :)

With GSZ gone, that frees up a load of space, and you don't have to dedicate any of the creature curve to being green.

Trinket Mage is excellent, and I've included it in lots of my pod builds. But it's real power is finding SB cards. I wouldn't play Chalice of the Void or Pithing Needle maindeck. In some matchups they do nothing, and they have the same problem as library, getting swept away by deed. I'd put a Zuran Orb in the SB too if you have burn in your meta.

In regards to Merciless Executioner, we already had Fleshbag Marauder. I found being able to pod for it well worth the 2 mana.

Thanks for the response. It's possible I'm putting too much in. I'm finding I don't want 3 pods, with the power to dig for them between Library, Brainstorm, and Top I can get away with less and the creature count means there's little value in having multiple pods active. I'm finding 2 to be the right number. This plays into the reduced Brainstorm count too, with fewer Pods it's less important to put something back into my library so I can pod it out and the deck generally has plenty of mana to cast it's spells. So I'm more interested in finding things than in podding for value. Pod is just another way to find those things.

I do think that I'm going to try fewer Libraries, I really like them but I'm finding that my usual play is to just take cards from it, almost no matter what they are so that I can guarantee value through a blown up Deed, or a Decay, or anything else. I can probably get the same general benefit from more tops/shuffle effects at a lower cost. I do really like the T1 GSZ though, I'm not so interested in podding GSZ to a 1 drop as I am in having 3 or 4 mana on turn 2. That lets me play a bigger guy and start winning through the board, it's also quite handy being able to convert a GSZ into a Cabal Therapy flashback in certain matchups. DRS isn't in because I can't find the room. If I run any it will probably only be one, but for now the slots are at a premium and I think I could get better utility out of a Scavenging Ooze at 2 than a DRS at 1.

I've gotten a lot of g1 value out of the Pithing Needle, less out of the Chalice but the theory was I have the ramp and the relative lack of 2 drops to make a Chalice on 2 good in game 1. Switching from Library to more Brainstorm/Top would make that more true. Chalice on 1 is always nice too. But, it hasn't really performed as well as I would like so the Chalice will likely become something else. Zuran Orb seems like a good suggestion.

[Echelon]

Hello everyone. This is my first time posting after lurking for a long time. My current deck of choice is Miracles because I really enjoy control archetype. When I played modern (before the Deathrite Shaman ban) I was really into the Gifts Control deck, I have the same handle name over at mtgsalvation, if you are interested in my early support for that deck type you can go see it there. Anyway, I've been toying with various Nic-Fit shells, and none of them have the control or grindy element's that I'm use too. I decided to do things a little unorthodox and drop the Green Sun's Zenith package altogether and splashed blue into my Abzan build for the card Gifts Ungiven. This is the current list I've been running, and it just meshes so well together. Please check out this list and give me any input on some choices I may have overlooked.

Gift-Fit
Deck


Some explanation of card interactions:
...

Anyway, Please test out the deck for yourselves, I would love some input on any ideas I may have overlooked. Thank you.

Well, if you like cheating bombs onto the battlefield, you can try the Bacon & Eggs-list. The updated list (minus SB) looks somewhat like this:

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Fierce Empath
4 Summoner's Egg
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobyte
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Diabolic Intent


It durdles a little bit less than the Gifts Ungiven-list and also performs quite reasonably :smile:. The removal suite can be tinkered with and you might be able to cut a Diabolic Intent, perhaps adding another removal card or Zenith. Also, the Darksteel Colossus could be a Worldspine Wurm as well. I'm still pondering on that one.

[sdematt]

What about Leyline of Sanctitiy? Too narrow? Too bad Mindlock Orb shuts Nic Fit down too...that would be a sweet one against them.

It's too many slots against just ANT. I don't want to remove Thoughtseizes since you want those in other matchups, as with the other cards. I think if I was playing more in Seattle, I'd be running more combo hate for sure.

-Matt

[Arianrhod]

What about Leyline of Sanctitiy? Too narrow? Too bad Mindlock Orb shuts Nic Fit down too...that would be a sweet one against them.

That doesn't stop Nic Fit from being able to run it. Nic Fit has a long, storied history of salt the earth techniques. I'll happily saw off my own foot if it means that the opponent CANNOT win, regardless of how badly it cripples me. See also: (white) Nic Fits used to run Humility in the sideboard for vs Sneak/Show to great effect.

Note that white versions already frequently employ this effect in the (1-sided) form of Aven Mindcensor, conveniently castable on turn 2 after Therapy/Explorer.

---------

Glad to see the thread is still populated and actually seems to have grown. I'll probably be actively playing again in about two months, so I should be more helpful then rather than just drifting in and sniping peoples' posts.

[Khamul]

Hey guys, I've decided to post in this thread in hopes of getting some suggestions for my BUG Pod list. I've played it at the Legacy Event in Milano, and went poorly with it - 2-5. Won against BUG Delver and Soldier Stompy, lost against Sneak-Show, Omni-Tell, MUD, Dredge and ANT.

The list I ran was:

Creatures (23):
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Eternal Witness
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Shriekmaw
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Thragtusk
1 AEtherling
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

Spells (16):
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Dig Through Time
1 Abrupt Decay

Lands (21):
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard (15):
4 Force of Will
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Riptide Pilferer
1 Notion Thief
1 Memoricide
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dimir Charm
1 Negate

Tried to metagame a bit against Miracles, that's why I included the Manlands and AEtherling. Nearly all of the cards performed good during the tournament, except AEtherling and Hermit, I'll gonna replace them, AEtherling's substitute will most likely be Grave Titan. And Tasigur's gonna get cut along with Dig and the Decay for a Trinket Mage alongside Top and EExplosives (and a Pithing Needle in the Board - most likely over Memoricide).

But here's my first question: What is a good 5-Drop to run? I'm not impressed by Acidic Slime, and Sidisi, Undead Vizier doesn't do it for me either. Am I missing something about Slime? I mean, I could rearrange a bit of my curve (like when I run Slime, a 4-Drop Slot's gonna be free because Wickerbough Elder can go).

There we come to my second question:
Can I adjust my list anyhow to not lose that horribly against the matchups I faced preboard (except those very rare god hands)? How should I readjust my Pod line for an open Meta? I've tried out many cards like:
Reclamation Sage
Bone Shredder
Man-o'-War
Sower of Temptation
Obstinate Baloth
Entomber Exarch
and none of those impressed me.

Is there any other 2-Drop that can mess up with Combo early? I'm really not that impressed by Mesmeric Fiend and Ravenous Rats either. Pilferers are good, but imo not maindeckable.

[sdematt]

A few people have been asking for a Jund build out of me, so this is what I might run:

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vraska the Unseen/Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rampaging Baloths/Broodmate Dragon/Big Fatty
1 Huntmaster of the Fells

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

I was doing some tutoring last night on Punishing Fit and the list looks like fun. I'll try to branch out and try to get some testing in. I'm thinking two Thrun is better just because with all the Council's Judgment floating around, at least locally, I want to hit another. Card's REALLY good in the matches where it matters and we don't have Sigarda in this. Games is obviously insane.

[Bobmans]

A few people have been asking for a Jund build out of me, so this is what I might run:

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vraska the Unseen/Garruk Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rampaging Baloths/Broodmate Dragon/Big Fatty
1 Huntmaster of the Fells

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands

SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

I was doing some tutoring last night on Punishing Fit and the list looks like fun. I'll try to branch out and try to get some testing in. I'm thinking two Thrun is better just because with all the Council's Judgment floating around, at least locally, I want to hit another. Card's REALLY good in the matches where it matters and we don't have Sigarda in this. Games is obviously insane.

Thragthusk? It does leave a 3/3 after it is removed by council's judgment. Hefproof and regenerate do matter on the other hand.
4 Groves is the best number to go to, makes one care less about Wasteland.
Courser of Kruphix works really well with Rampaging Baloth. Both cards are certainly underestimated.
Ive tried Charnelhoard Wurm in that slot, once it connects it is a monster. But cmc 7 is tricky. Next thing to try is Ruric Thar. Good suggestion.
REB is the card i am having doubt about. Not sure what to replace it with. Finding ways to get rid of Grisel/Emrakul/Marit Lage after those hit the board has more prio then the effect of REB.

[jdtheblightdragon]

Hey, guys! Where does everyone think the ScapeWish version of Nic Fit belongs? Is the Abzan version considered the best overall version currently?

[Bobmans]

Hey, guys! Where does everyone think the ScapeWish version of Nic Fit belongs? Is the Abzan version considered the best overall version currently?
JUNK is popular no doubt, but still Scapewish and BUG pod has the most highest placings when checking out on tcdecks/mtgdecks. I've never seen Rhino lists in T8/16.

[sdematt]

I mean, even though it might be "popular," how many people are actually playing it on the planet. 30? :P

I've won and Top 8'd many local events, but I haven't been to an event with over 50 in a few months. Stupid school :/

-Matt

[Bobmans]

For now i have switched my PFire list. Big changes are MD Slaughter Games and Thrun is back. After playing some games against Jund and PFire Maverick i am already happy with the changes. Naming KotR on Slaughter Games G1 i won instead of losing to a quick Marit Lage. Also Thrun wins vs PFire, bolt and Swords, so happy.

4 veteran explorer
1 deathrite shaman
1 scavenging ooze
1 eternal witness
1 courser of kruphix
1 thrun, the last troll
1 huntmaster of the fells
1 thragtusk
1 primeval titan
4 green sun's zenith
3 sensei's divining top
4 cabal therapy
3 pernicious deed
3 abrupt decay
3 liliana of the veil
3 punishing fire
1 maelstrom pulse
1 vraska the unseen
2 slaughter games
2 bayou
1 taiga
1 badlands
3 forest
2 swamp
1 mountain
3 verdant catacomb
2 wooded foothills
1 bloodstained mire
4 grove of the burnwillows
1 phyrexian tower
1 volrath's stronghold

Sb:
3 carpet of flowers
2 red elemental blast
2 thoughtseize
2 extirpate
1 pithing needle
1 diabolic edict
1 krosan grip
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 garruk relentless

Edit: the thought behind MD Slaughter Games is that it van snipe ANT or other combo decks, especially with Cabal Therapy and Veteran Explorer. Winning G1 vs fast combo just gives so much room for the MU. Slaughter Games can always hit something important in any matchup so it is never dead.

[Megadeus]

Buddy said he got crushed by a Titania Nic Fit deck with DD combo... Sounds sweet. Was that one of you? If so, list?

[Whitefaces]

Here's a BUG pod list I played at my LGS last week. Went 3-1, losing to Shardless BUG in the last round. Beating a weird Animate Land/Unnatural Selection/Griffin Canyon deck, Sneak and Show and Enchantress.

1 DRS
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Trinket Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Birthing Pod

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Swamp
2 Island
2 Forest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

SB
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Envelop
2 Duress

I can't remember the rest this second actually, but it was mostly combo hate.

[bryanzoll]

Might as well post an updated ScapeWish build since everyone else is sharing their different flavored NicFit lists:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Scapeshift
4 Burning Wish

3 Abrupt Decay

4 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
3 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Ruination
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Innocent Blood
1 Scapeshift

I play on MTGO a lot with it and I don't have issues with most decks out there. Your toughest matchups are going to be OmniTell, Sneak and Show, and any fast combo deck. I am roughly 55/45 with them post-board as it all depends on how good your draws are.

It stomps all other decks. The only way you really lose is if you beat yourself.

[Paranoid__Android]

I'm going on a small casual legacy tournament not far from my city. We know all the players there, and they know us. I've always played Junk before, and got very very unlucky a few times.
sdmatt's Two Towers testing is going very well and I've tested it against many decks on Cockatrice. Results are great. 70% wins/30% losses. Since I know their meta there this is what I've summed up for building sideboard (and main maybe):

01. Oops! All Spells/In side Belcher I think -> Gravehate/Hexproof, Discard, Rule of Law Effect, Deed/EPlague

02. Reanimator -> Gravehate, Discard (reanimate spells)

03. Dredge -> Gravehate, (maybe) Rule of Law effect

04. Death (without taxes I think) - Removal, discard

05. Infect -> removals, mass removals, discard

06. Hypergenesis -> Discard, Rule of Law effect, Humility (maybe??, to shut down big fatties)

07. Shardless BUG ->Discard, Hexproof (Leyline to be correct), removal

08. Punishing Jund -> Gravehate, Discard, Removal

09. Merfolk -> Removal, discard

10. Miracles (maybe) -> Discard, Carpets (??)

I've written all down, and last things to do are build a sideboard, and write down to remember what to name with T1/T2 Therapy G1 against every deck. Mainboard changes were -1 Thragtusk with +1 Titania, Protector of Argoth.

Help is appreciated. Thank you very much. :D

[bryanzoll]

I'm going on a small casual legacy tournament not far from my city. We know all the players there, and they know us. I've always played Junk before, and got very very unlucky a few times.
sdmatt's Two Towers testing is going very well and I've tested it against many decks on Cockatrice. Results are great. 70% wins/30% losses. Since I know their meta there this is what I've summed up for building sideboard (and main maybe):

01. Oops! All Spells/In side Belcher I think -> Gravehate/Hexproof, Discard, Rule of Law Effect, Deed/EPlague

02. Reanimator -> Gravehate, Discard (reanimate spells)

03. Dredge -> Gravehate, (maybe) Rule of Law effect

04. Death (without taxes I think) - Removal, discard

05. Infect -> removals, mass removals, discard

06. Hypergenesis -> Discard, Rule of Law effect, Humility (maybe??, to shut down big fatties)

07. Shardless BUG ->Discard, Hexproof (Leyline to be correct), removal

08. Punishing Jund -> Gravehate, Discard, Removal

09. Merfolk -> Removal, discard

10. Miracles (maybe) -> Discard, Carpets (??)

I've written all down, and last things to do are build a sideboard, and write down to remember what to name with T1/T2 Therapy G1 against every deck. Mainboard changes were -1 Thragtusk with +1 Titania, Protector of Argoth.

Help is appreciated. Thank you very much. :D

Do you have containment priests? If so, they will handle Hypergenesis, Dread Returns, Ichorid, Reanimator, and Aether Vial effects (Merfolk / death and taxes).

[Bobmans]

Also consider Surgical Extraction against Oops since it is also the only way to interact T1 on the draw.

[Paranoid__Android]

I've bought them, but they will come a week after the tournament, so Priests are out. But, guys from there said that if you need something, you can proxy it. :D

[Arianrhod]

I mean, even though it might be "popular," how many people are actually playing it on the planet. 30? :P

I've won and Top 8'd many local events, but I haven't been to an event with over 50 in a few months. Stupid school :/

-Matt

You'd be surprised. Nic Fit is a very popular deck among the...lesser educated of legacy's populace. You can meander any large SCG or legacy GP and see multiple Nic Fit players. Only a handful (usually players from this thread) ever do well, though. People look at the deck and go OOH STANDARD CARDS AND BASICS and think it's a get out jail free card for getting into legacy, and then get swiftly and severely punished.

[Ralf]

Might as well post an updated ScapeWish build since everyone else is sharing their different flavored NicFit lists:

Sideboard:
3 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Ruination
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Innocent Blood
1 Scapeshift

I play on MTGO a lot with it and I don't have issues with most decks out there. Your toughest matchups are going to be OmniTell, Sneak and Show, and any fast combo deck. I am roughly 55/45 with them post-board as it all depends on how good your draws are.

It stomps all other decks. The only way you really lose is if you beat yourself.

Interesting takes on Scape.

Could you elaborate more on some of your choices ?

3 CT -> none in the side ?
1 GSZ in the side ?
1 ruination -> how is the card for you, I feel like it is only good against MUD and 12 post to some extend (I am wondering if SLG is not better but maybe you have a good call here) ?

I have completely reworked the mana base on my side to better fit with the black sideboard and end up with this:

24 lands / 10 mountains

2 Swamps
1 Mountain
3 Forest
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
1 Stomping Ground
2 Valakut
1 Karakas

14 creatures

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura tribe elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
3 Huntmaster of the Fell
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan

22 other spells

3 Sensei
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 GSZ
4 Burning Wish
1 Scapeshift

Sideboard

1 Militant dryad
3 Carpet of flower
1 Thoughtseize
1 Innocent blood
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Pyroclasm
1 Toxic deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
3 Slaughter games

I used to be playing REB in the side but eventually I got rid of them as we are more a "tapped out style of deck" rather than a reactive one.
REB is better against blue combo decks and as a reactive spell but discard has a wider application against the legacy (meta) field.

This deck is 'less' about winning with the combo.
10 mountains / 1 scape MD but I have yet to experience any problem with.

I'm pretty happy with the 3 anti-Emmy cards MD (Titan, Titania, Karakas)

Titania is really a powerhouse. Stalling grounds, closing games fast (even scaping just to get a bunch of 5/3 is a big deal).
I'm wondering why there are so few Nic Fit lists playing her at the moment.

[bryanzoll]

Interesting takes on Scape.

Could you elaborate more on some of your choices ?

3 CT -> none in the side ?
1 GSZ in the side ?
1 ruination -> how is the card for you, I feel like it is only good against MUD and 12 post to some extend (I am wondering if SLG is not better but maybe you have a good call here) ?



Most certainly.

I run 3 CT / 2 Thoughtseize in the main over 4 CT because I also have a sac outlet via Phyrexian tower. Not to mention I've had this sequence of plays happen quite a few times:

T1 Thoughtseize
T2 Cabal Therapy, Veteran Explorer, Flashback

That sequence creates an almost auto-win situation against any deck.

I run a Thoughtseize in the board as a wish target over CT because I find myself needing it against Combo based decks where I wouldn't know what card they have and would prefer to hit something of worth besides swinging for the fence and coming up empty.

Having GSZ as a wish target has been incredible for me. In essence, you are running 7 copies of it as you have 3 in the MD and 4 BW to grab the one in the SB. Sometimes, bad draws happen and you draw all your red sources which would make a scapeshift at 7 lands less effective. If I am at 6-7 lands and most of them red sources, I would wish for GSZ and get a threat like Thrun or Huntmaster to apply pressure that way. Honestly, I find myself winning more games by my opponents being overrun with Thrun, Huntmaster, and Prime time than comboing with scapeshift. A lot of delver players scoop after you wiped the board with deed and then drop a thragtusk.

Ruination is a beast. I also live in New England which is where 12 post runs rampant. But aside from the 12 post matchup. Popping deeds against any delver deck and following it up with Ruination is game over. This is also legacy, where a lot of the decks run manabases built on dual lands, so Ruination is just awesome. Not to mention if Lands.dec is in your meta Ruination just goes the distance against them.

Right now I am only running 2 sweepers as targets (Pyroclasm and Massacre) because in my meta I don't have a lot of TNN decks. I cut Pyroblast and a Toxic Deluge to have a few flex spots in my SB and those are currently GSZ and Ruination. I don't see myself cutting GSZ in the foreseeable future, I might cut Ruination if I were to go to a GP or something where the format would be more diverse and I could find a card better suited to the meta.

I wouldn't cut Pyroblasts entirely but definitely wouldn't run more than 2. One of the issues this deck has against blue based combo (OmniTell, Sneaky Show, High Tide, etc.) is that fact that we simply just don't have enough cards to SB in against. Abrupt Decays and Pernicious Deeds are dead cards against these decks, and very rarely would I say I am tapping out each turn. As much as I would love to, it just isn't in the cards most of the time (no pun intended...okay, maybe a little).

I'll bring in against these decks 1 Thoughtseize, 3 Slaughter Games, and 2 Pyroblasts for the 6 Abrupt Decay / Pernicious Deed. I'd also cut a few explorers as these decks usually run basics and bring in Carpets.

Let me know if you have anymore questions.

[Ralf]

Let me know if you have anymore questions.

Thank you for your feedback.

I am playing 3 CT + 2 TS MD since a very longtime. But I do like a lot the CT staying in the side for the reason you mentioned -> if you get to see opponent's hand, wishing for a double CT will most likely be backbreaking for him.

I don't remember having ever had the idea of putting a GSZ in the side. Good catch and I'll test your idea. To be honest, I'm not sure I like it a lot since the first GSZ is mostly for a ramp piece (Vet Ex) or for another ramp piece (pun intended) and I feel like I would dilute the deck with less GSZ MD but it has to be tested before drawing any meaningful conclusion.

Since there is not a lot of 12 post in my area but a bunch of Elves, D&T and such, I'll stay with the toxic.

[Arianrhod]

Thank you for your feedback.

I am playing 3 CT + 2 TS MD since a very longtime. But I do like a lot the CT staying in the side for the reason you mentioned -> if you get to see opponent's hand, wishing for a double CT will most likely be backbreaking for him.

I don't remember having ever had the idea of putting a GSZ in the side. Good catch and I'll test your idea. To be honest, I'm not sure I like it a lot since the first GSZ is mostly for a ramp piece (Vet Ex) or for another ramp piece (pun intended) and I feel like I would dilute the deck with less GSZ MD but it has to be tested before drawing any meaningful conclusion.

Since there is not a lot of 12 post in my area but a bunch of Elves, D&T and such, I'll stay with the toxic.

Don't forget that sideboard is very flexible with this deck (especially Scape, in particular). You can always side in (out) a Green Sun's for matchups where Wish is less good (Miracles comes to mind, here). On the other hand, siding a Zenith out against something like a Jund or a Shardless is fine because it diametrically increases your threat density, since all of your wishes are then also the best creature in your deck alongside representing the possibility of a kill if you suspect the opponent doesn't have anything.

[Plague Sliver]

Ruination is a beast. I also live in New England which is where 12 post runs rampant. But aside from the 12 post matchup. Popping deeds against any delver deck and following it up with Ruination is game over. This is also legacy, where a lot of the decks run manabases built on dual lands, so Ruination is just awesome. Not to mention if Lands.dec is in your meta Ruination just goes the distance against them.

Wouldn't Blood Moon be better in almost every situation? And it's 1 CC less.

[Bobmans]

Wouldn't Blood Moon be better in almost every situation? And it's 1 CC less.
Eh, Burning Wish, Valakut and enough basics to play Ruination more effectivly then Blood Moon?

[moseby]

Buddy said he got crushed by a Titania Nic Fit deck with DD combo... Sounds sweet. Was that one of you? If so, list?


OMG that sounds ridiculously fun. Time to start brewing

[Myelectronicdays]

You'd be surprised. Nic Fit is a very popular deck among the...lesser educated of legacy's populace. You can meander any large SCG or legacy GP and see multiple Nic Fit players. Only a handful (usually players from this thread) ever do well, though. People look at the deck and go OOH STANDARD CARDS AND BASICS and think it's a get out jail free card for getting into legacy, and then get swiftly and severely punished.

I remember about 1.5 years ago maybe.. i was new to legacy... ran into nic fit and thought the same thing.. and i was playing bug delver... you can guess what happened to me.. i got annihilated.

I feel like I've played about every legacy deck at this point and no deck has come close to the fun i have with nic fit.

[Dzogchen]

I know this isn't really relevant to strategy at all for this deck, but I wanted to share this.

I have so much fun playing the junk version that I wanted something special in it and decided to have our heavy hitter Sigarda altered. She looks fantastic, right!?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xta1/v/t1.0-9/13267_592151797588477_5713218002265942459_n.jpg?oh=cc29d8bbc2c0afdcf8c2bf8114d47ace&oe=55A9C851&__gda__=1437924242_399801c93f150a9b9c962c8355757ed5

Definitely want to plug the alterist too: DCAlters on Facebook. Now when I GSZ for her...people know I mean business.

I suppose I should add SOMETHING about strategy and, after Matt's suggestion of trying 1 Diabolic Intent I've fallen in love with the card. Its saved me from MANY a situation and I'm sure at least 1 is a great inclusion to the deck. Went 3-1 last week (rough loss to burn) after DISMANTLING a Death+Taxes deck. I normally take out my vets in the match, and got into a tricky spot, BUT...was able to GRZ for a deathrite, then sac the deathrite to Intent, go get Toxic Deluge, and wipe the whole board. It was elementary from there. So great call on the tutor, Matt.

[Arianrhod]

The Sigarda looks great. Not my personal style, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate it.

Not sure if Intent is still relevant with Sidisi existing now. The cheaper cost might be worth more than the unconditional tutor / potential attached body, but I dunno. I think it'll probably end up being a close call.

Everyone talking about Ruination should feel bad, then look at From the Ashes and fell worse for forgetting it. If you want an Armageddon for vs 12post/MUD/etc, that's your go-to. Ruination is frequently bad for Scape because so much of its manabase is duals to allow you to continue to play magic while working towards Valakut. FtA likely will still hurt, but at least you'll be able to play the creature game after it hits.

Before the inevitable "but miracles/golddigger/insert u/x control here," if that's what you want to hate on, Tsunami is still there, quietly waiting for senpai to notice her. Comes down to what you want the land destruction for -- you can't just slap "an armageddon" in your sideboard and expect it to work 100% of the time vs everything.

[Dzogchen]

Have you (or anyone) done any testing with the new Sidisi? I'm interested to hear how its going. I was a bit worried about the cost, and that its a creature you cant GSZ for (but I suppose you can't tutor for a DI by itself either).

[bryanzoll]

Wouldn't Blood Moon be better in almost every situation? And it's 1 CC less.

Nah, blood moon can't be wished for, also...my opponent would still be able to cast red colored or colorless spells.

[Bobmans]

Everyone talking about Ruination should feel bad, then look at From the Ashes and fell worse for forgetting it.

It should be fairly easy to fetch and VetEx for basics alone, cast Ruination and setup for the kill using Valakut and Scapeshift. It would have more appeal to me then gor for From the Ashes.

Edit: i also played against Jeskai Stoneblade running tons of basics. He resolved Ruination while i was not expecting it and died horribly.

[bryanzoll]

I agree with Bobmans...when I am playing Ruination, I want all their lands destroyed that I can without running the risk of them getting more. If I cast Ruination, I'll already have a bunch of basics in play to be a head. What I don't want to happen, is to cast From the Ashes against an opponent with 1-2 basics in play, then get the remaining 1 or 2 basics in their deck, then drop a Jace or whatever next turn.

[maharis]

You'd be surprised. Nic Fit is a very popular deck among the...lesser educated of legacy's populace. You can meander any large SCG or legacy GP and see multiple Nic Fit players. Only a handful (usually players from this thread) ever do well, though. People look at the deck and go OOH STANDARD CARDS AND BASICS and think it's a get out jail free card for getting into legacy, and then get swiftly and severely punished.

I wouldn't say that. Nic Fit isn't super easy to play -- no legacy deck is, really -- but it is definitely underpowered relative to the metagame. You need luck from your draws and luck in your matchups. I just went back and read our GP reports. Luck was a huge factor. Sure we made errors but those even out. I forgot to de-sideboard and game-lossed myself, then won the next two games because the matchup was so favorable.

The deck invites variance and many other lists are so streamlined and powerful that people naturally gravitate toward them. I always laugh when people say Miracles is a hard deck. No, it's a deck that takes a long time to win. It's not exactly skill that allows you to counter all their spells for free and have perfect card selection and activate draw triggers. Junk Nic Fit may boil down to "break vetex, jam guys" but there's no free wins like Counterbalance or True-Name Nemesis in the deck.

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

I wouldn't say that. Nic Fit isn't super easy to play -- no legacy deck is, really -- but it is definitely underpowered relative to the metagame. You need luck from your draws and luck in your matchups. I just went back and read our GP reports. Luck was a huge factor. Sure we made errors but those even out. I forgot to de-sideboard and game-lossed myself, then won the next two games because the matchup was so favorable.

The deck invites variance and many other lists are so streamlined and powerful that people naturally gravitate toward them. I always laugh when people say Miracles is a hard deck. No, it's a deck that takes a long time to win. It's not exactly skill that allows you to counter all their spells for free and have perfect card selection and activate draw triggers. Junk Nic Fit may boil down to "break vetex, jam guys" but there's no free wins like Counterbalance or True-Name Nemesis in the deck.

I think Miracles is a hard deck to play in the sense that it's hard to play it well enough and fast enough to avoid the X-X-3 bracket. Any Legacy deck that doesn't run blue is going to attract people new to the format because they don't have to plop down the cash for any blue duals, Nic Fit just happens to be the one that take advantage of Wizards' new "make creatures completely insane" design strategy.

[Brael]

Well, managed to 3-1 our small legacy tournament last night. Beat Esper Stoneblade, Metalworker, and Dredge while losing to Reanimator.

I don't know how the deck would do at a larger tournament but it has been doing pretty well on the local scene. The only bad thing is that I feel that I'm slow to win games and that erodes the ramp advantage. This is causing me to goto time pretty often. Metalworker was a 2-0 that nearly went to turns, Esper Stoneblade did goto turns, and even dredge was a 40 minute affair. So I feel that I'm a bit too much on the grind plan and not enough on the win plan. As my Metalworker opponent said, it was worse than playing against Miracles (at that point he had an Ensnaring Bridge lock so I was just looping Baleful Strix/Eternal Witness with Recurring Nightmare, and topping) which made me feel a bit bad. The BUG version has been a lot of fun though.

[sdematt]

I went 4-0 last night at our local again, besting RUG Delver, Shortcake Painter, Death and Taxes (50 minute insane game 1, one of my top 10 games of Magic ever), and Shortcake Painter.

My usual list was run. I'm finding with more Painter in my meta, I want a bit more Rec Sage. Oh well. Dear lord, Thrun is such a freaking tank.

-Matt

[Scott]

Forgive the Nic Fit novice question: I'm working from a GBw list with Deeds, and I assume Explorers are boarded out against certain decks with basics that can use the ramp. The list has Strangleroot Geist (I know, I know), so I won't be left completely wanting for Cabal Therapy fuel, but I'm wondering if the deck is hampered by the loss of ramp in these post board games. I'd stick DRS in there but I'm not loving the idea of multiple Deeds with that, especially when some of the matchups in which I'm guessing you'd remove Explorer, like D&T, Elves, Merfolk, and Maverick, want Deed. What's the protocol or tech?

[sdematt]

Forgive the Nic Fit novice question: I'm working from a GBw list with Deeds, and I assume Explorers are boarded out against certain decks with basics that can use the ramp. The list has Strangleroot Geist (I know, I know), so I won't be left completely wanting for Cabal Therapy fuel, but I'm wondering if the deck is hampered by the loss of ramp in these post board games. I'd stick DRS in there but I'm not loving the idea of multiple Deeds with that, especially when some of the matchups in which I'm guessing you'd remove Explorer, like D&T, Elves, Merfolk, and Maverick, want Deed. What's the protocol or tech?

Generally, there's only a few decks that play lots of basics, and of those, most are blue. Examples are Miracles, some Blade control decks, and maybe Painter and Merfolk. Of those, almost all of them are blue, so Carpet of Flowers swaps in for Veteran Explorer in most of those situations. Against Painter, you want to colour fix with your Veterans to counteract their Moon effects. The only time when you don't is a non-blue basic heavy deck. Examples would be Pox, Nic Fit mirror, Elves, DnT, Burn, and a homebrew.

Against DnT, you getting more lands is fine since it mitigates Rishadan Port and Wasteland effects and you casting bombs outclocks their small creatures, even if they cast a whole whack of them with the extra mana; Against Elves, you want to ramp into more removal/sweepers since they'll either overextend into sweepers or be outclassed by the creatures you'll be playing; Against Pox you want more lands so their land destruction isn't as effective; Against Burn you want to be able to start ripping them up with Thragtusk and Siege Rhino, and them blowing their load in 5 turns or 2 doesn't matter since they run out of gas so fast; the Mirror is the hardest one, I think. I always board out the Veterans, and here's why. If my opponent does have them in his deck, I get the benefit while not having to run it, therefore giving me more sideboard slots. If neither of us run it, we're at least even in acceleration and then playskill and deck construction/knowledge matter more, so generally, I win there as well.

Does this maybe answer your question? Basically, even though some decks play basics and CAN accelerate, your deck is DESIGNED to accelerate into huge bombs which most decks cannot answer.

[Paranoid__Android]

Went to local tournament yesterday which I've talked about, and went 2:2.Lost first two matches against GU Infect and Reanimator, and beat down Dredge 2:1, and Merfolk 2:0. Not a bad start with Two Towers, but few missplays, and horrible topdecks were enough to lose entry to Top4. And a ton of Khans packs!

My sideboard was:

2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Dread of Night
2x Engineered Plague
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Obstinate Baloth

I was still tired from drinking the night before, and didn't really know what metagame was. And there they were: 2x Merfolk, MonoW aggro, Shardless BUG, 2x Dredge, Pox, Reanimator, Infect and my Two Towers.

First round - GU Infect

I was thinking that he would play Shardless BUG. And that was mistake that costed me not putting two Melira's in the sideboard. First match I've 2x Cabal Therapy and flashbacked Explorer. And all I drawed was lands, and land, and land, and a...Siege Rhino. Not really good against 2x flying Inkmoth Nexus going for lethal. Second match I've managed to discard and killed everything, but one pump spell and Berserk after topdecking Brainstorm was not good start for me at all.

Second Round - UB Reanimator

First round Scooze and DRShaman were enough to him to scoop. I've sideboarded in every gravehate and still didn't drawed a single one in match 2 and 3. Griselbrand after Show and Tell (which he sideboarded in) were a pain in the ass. Well, after that match, no Top4 for me.

Third round - Dredge

First match was great. Therapy, Veteran, Zenith for SCooze and GG. Second match, after bringing in gravehate, went very horrible. Only basics in hand, and double costed spells. Even a mulligan was a horrible one. Third round was a beast. I've ramped into 11 lands by turn 5. Reccuring Nightmare's effect three times a turn were enough to loop Witness to keep him from crucial cards. And to shuffle my deck and Top for win condition. Then a Rhino loop got online and GG.

Fourth round - Merfolk

Starting hand was a beast. 3x Therapies, Forest, Swamp, VExplorer and Abrupt Decay. Then topdeck mode got on and 2 Rhinos and Deed were enough to go for the win. Sided in 2x Tutors and 2x Plagues. Second match startng hand was great. Basics, fetch, Plague, Witness and Decay. After a few turns on getting some damage from his creatures, Sigarda slowed him a few turns. Enough for a SDToped Deed to clear the field. Volrath's Stronghold brought back the Witness and Plague which was enough to get three turns for Sigarda kill.


After all, I'm happy about how it all went. Only thing I was pissed about was topdecking lands in first two rounds, against Infect and Reanimator. Some cards I didn't played at all, or never draw them (or Zenith them). And those were : Golgari Charm, Thrun, Thragtusk, Maelstrom Pulse. I'm thinking of getting them out, and put something else to test.

[Scott]

Generally, there's only a few decks that play lots of basics, and of those, most are blue. Examples are Miracles, some Blade control decks, and maybe Painter and Merfolk. Of those, almost all of them are blue, so Carpet of Flowers swaps in for Veteran Explorer in most of those situations. Against Painter, you want to colour fix with your Veterans to counteract their Moon effects. The only time when you don't is a non-blue basic heavy deck. Examples would be Pox, Nic Fit mirror, Elves, DnT, Burn, and a homebrew.

Against DnT, you getting more lands is fine since it mitigates Rishadan Port and Wasteland effects and you casting bombs outclocks their small creatures, even if they cast a whole whack of them with the extra mana; Against Elves, you want to ramp into more removal/sweepers since they'll either overextend into sweepers or be outclassed by the creatures you'll be playing; Against Pox you want more lands so their land destruction isn't as effective; Against Burn you want to be able to start ripping them up with Thragtusk and Siege Rhino, and them blowing their load in 5 turns or 2 doesn't matter since they run out of gas so fast; the Mirror is the hardest one, I think. I always board out the Veterans, and here's why. If my opponent does have them in his deck, I get the benefit while not having to run it, therefore giving me more sideboard slots. If neither of us run it, we're at least even in acceleration and then playskill and deck construction/knowledge matter more, so generally, I win there as well.

Does this maybe answer your question? Basically, even though some decks play basics and CAN accelerate, your deck is DESIGNED to accelerate into huge bombs which most decks cannot answer.

Thanks for the insight. That makes sense; even though parts of the primer mention boarding out Explorer against some decks that can utilize basics, I had considered the thought that you're just giving them lands, and not extra threats/answers, so acceleration into something like a Toxic Deluge against an extended opponent wouldn't be a horrible thing. Like you said, Nic Fit's bombs are bigger than what most other decks can offer. Sound reasoning with regards to D&T, Burn, Pox, and the mirror too.

Assuming I have three Deeds, would you still recommend swapping Explorers for Carpet of Flower against blue decks with basics? I suppose it's possible that you will have already taken advantage of acceleration by the time your Carpet's blown up, but in testing, I find myself using lots of mana even late game. I like the idea of using Choke instead in that situation, to mitigate what you've given them in a similar way to how sweepers operate, but I don't know if that's been found to be effective.

[sdematt]

Well, both Choke and Carpet are likely more than fine. Some people swear by Choke, and I've had much success with Carpet. I don't think you'd be wrong to try Choke. However, Carpet is not a threat to Miracles, whereas Choke is somewhat of a threat, as as you said, less likely to get blown out by Deed. I really didn't like Choke against Delver since it always ended up getting Pierced, and it (Carpet) prevents you from getting Dazed/Pierced out of the game when you're trying to set up.

TL:DR Choke is a good card too, and likely better against Miracles, but you'll be a whole ton slower since you'll have zero acceleration in the deck.

-Matt

[bryanzoll]

For me Carpet > Choke because I am running ScapeWish and not Junk variant.

Against blue combo decks its imperative to be able to cast an early Slaughter Games. You can power out a T2 Slaughter games with a carpet in play and will save you a ton of games.

Against Miracles, Carpet is not as relevant as there isn't a crazy need for rushing out a slaughter games. Against Miracles you basically want to just play threat after threat (or thrun if you are running thrun) and have them respond to each separate threat. So never over-extend as each of your threats is able to close the game out against them.

[Scott]

Well, both Choke and Carpet are likely more than fine. Some people swear by Choke, and I've had much success with Carpet. I don't think you'd be wrong to try Choke. However, Carpet is not a threat to Miracles, whereas Choke is somewhat of a threat, as as you said, less likely to get blown out by Deed. I really didn't like Choke against Delver since it always ended up getting Pierced, and it (Carpet) prevents you from getting Dazed/Pierced out of the game when you're trying to set up.

TL:DR Choke is a good card too, and likely better against Miracles, but you'll be a whole ton slower since you'll have zero acceleration in the deck.

-Matt

I was more thinking that Delver decks don't have basics so wouldn't require any Explorer/Carpet/Choke switching unless it happened to be in the SB and there was room, and that against stuff like Miracles and Blade Control, you'd keep in the Explorers while adding Choke, instead of making a swap, so you still had ramp and mitigated their ramp, if that makes sense.

[sdematt]

I was more thinking that Delver decks don't have basics so wouldn't require any Explorer/Carpet/Choke switching unless it happened to be in the SB and there was room, and that against stuff like Miracles and Blade Control, you'd keep in the Explorers while adding Choke, instead of making a swap, so you still had ramp and mitigated their ramp, if that makes sense.

I think you might underestimate how well Miracles can function under a Choke. If you catch them tapped out, it's absolute misery for them, sure. But, most of the time, they just Top with Plains and run that as long as possible while making land drops and keeping them untapped. Recall they can still pressure with Termini and STP without tapping down any blue sources. If the basics came into play tapped I'd agree with you, but then this would be a totally different deck ;)

I'll talk to Philipp and see what he thinks, but from our previous conversations, Choke was bad but not game over. Tsunami/Gotterdammerung are pretty game over for that deck.

[jbone2016]

I tried a Varient of Junk this past Saturday. Legend Fit...sort of. Took out the SFM(3 SFm, jitte, batterskull) package for the new Sidsi, Dromoka , tasigur, fierce empath, sun titan, sylvan safekeeper and Titania. Also moved the Deluge to the board (which was missed). Tried out Runed Halo x 2 (which was good) and Display of Dominance (almost killed a Jace-got countered)

Went 2-3. Beat Dredge in, Lost to Fish in 3, Lost to Miracles in 2, Beat Spanish Inquition in 2 (2nd game on a mull to 4), Lost to Reanimator in 2.
Thoughts were: Dromoka was nice. The rest were meh. I like Tasigur but this isn't the deck for it. Sidisi gets more value with Rectors.

[uncletiggy]

Does anyone have any interest or experience porting leyline/helm combo in nic fit. I've been trying for years in stompy shells and lands shells but not nic fit yet.

[Bobmans]

Dear lord, Thrun is such a freaking tank.

-Matt

Owh yes, he is...

http://s11.postimg.org/gwx6pbweb/20150409_052535.jpg

[lambert101]

@sdematt

I have been loving at your Junk Nic Fit List and was wondering how you side board.

Ideally I wanted to know your rough ideas about going against miracles, delver (RUG, BUR, and UWR), Death and Taxes, Elves, and Combo (Storm, Reanimator, and Sneak and Show).

Thank you for the help.

[sdematt]

Sorry for the late reply, school is murder.

So, my current list:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Path to Exile
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Sylvan Library

SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers

You may notice some changes so let me explain that part first. I got some time to watch someone else play the deck at the Legacy Classic that I hosted this past weekend (he's on here, Kyle). I noticed 23 lands might be just a tad too many, so I've cut it for another pieces of manipulation: Sylvan. Kyle was running Sylvans instead of Tops and he was getting decent mileage out of them because of all of our life gain. I think it's wrong to only play Sylvan in a Deed deck, but I think as supplemental draw, they're wonderful. I cut a Marsh Flats (the most cuttable land) for the Sylvan.

As for the board, I'm running 2 Choke/2 Carpet of Flowers split. Choke did real work for Kyle as he ran 3 Choke over 3 Carpet, it was ballbusting in the Miracles and Stoneblade matchups. I still think Carpet is truly an all start in the Delver matchups, moreso than Choke. I cut a Cranial Extraction for it, since two was a bit of a stretch anyway and it doesn't play well with Teeg which is coming in for all of those matchups anyway.

So, for sideboard, I don't have a guide yet since I don't have enough hours in with the deck (I usually like to play 500+ matches before I get really set on a guide/list and I'm not quite there yet) but I'll try to remember what I'm normally doing now.

Miracles:

I think here you're trying to stop them from landing Jace or Entreat and killing you. Sounds simple, but you're the disruptive deck and you need to stop Top, stick your evasive threats and go to town.

What's bad here? Path is terrible, Veteran is garbage. Thrun and Sigarda are your all-stars, and Safekeeper does real work with Teeg.

-3 Path, -4 Veteran Explorer
+2 Choke, +1 Cranial Extraction, +2 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Krosan Grip.

I think you could argue to bring in Thoughtseizes on the play to grab Tops, but they become dead draws in the late game. Decay isn't great, but killing Tops/CB's or blockers seems better than the dead Thoughtseizes, but know that Decay isn't wonderful. Carpet is also good to come in, but know that it's only to accelerate you and doesn't affect their game plan at all. In this matchup, protect a Teeg, lay a Deed to prevent Entreat, and keep Jace off the table. Leverage Thrun/Sigarda when you can.

Death and Taxes

You're the control deck. Kill everything all the time, don't get your mana locked out. Veteran is goof for both players, but your bombs are much, much better. Their only answer to Siege Rhino is STP, and they have no Snapcaster. Watch out for Revoker on Deed. Thalia can slow down your GSZs with Ports enough so that you cannot get online. Murder Thalia and go into Rhinos if you're shorter on mana, Sigarda if you do have the mana. They cannot beat Sigarda and Sigarda beats Batterskull, which is one of the few cards that can make your life a little difficult. I think the Recurring Nightmare loop is easily disrupted here, so don't bother.

-1 Garruk Relentless, -1 Recurring Nightmare
+1 Toxic Deluge, +1 Golgari Charm

I think you can argue to bring in Grip for Equipment or Thoughtseizes to grab stuff like Vial. I think the card you truly fear is Cataclysm, but as long as you have one fatty online, you should be fine. You could bring in Teeg to prevent Cataclysm or Batterskull from being hard cast.

RUG Delver

I'd say it's likely one of your greatest matchups. Just don't get Dazed or Stifled out of the game. Cabal Therapy should always try to hit Stifle or Force of Will. Stifle hits your Deeds, Rhino triggers, and Veteran triggers. Clear that shit and you cannot lose, basically. Snap fetches on their upkeep if you can. Beware possible Submerges or Mind Harness.

-1 Diabolic Intent, -1 Garruk Relentless, -1 Recurring Nightmare, -1 Top
+2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Deluge

Again, you can argue to bring in Choke, but I just don't know if you REALLY need it.

BUG Delver

They don't play Stifle, so you're way ahead. They do play Hymn and Liliana, which are pains. This deck tends to extend more with Deathrite, so your X-for-1's with Deed are that much better. Fetch for basics even if you have Vet and you should be fine. You can lose here, so be careful, but Tasigur is likely the card you're pretty worried about since your only "out" is Path and Pulse and Rhino doesn't trade with him. Ooze is VERY good in this matchup.

-1 Diabolic Intent, -1 Garruk Relentless
+2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Deluge

Patriot Delver

Likely the harder Delver matchup since they can play Stifles and STP, and have access to Meddling Mage/Containment Priest/Jace out of the board. Easily beatable in regular combat since TNN is a bit of a joke. Deed is god here. Find out if they're playing Stifle and fetch appropriately. Rhino goes very far in this matchup. Become the control deck, don't lose to Bolt + TNN. Slam Rhino after Rhino. Since they're more of a control deck, Choke is more of a consideration.

-1 Diabolic Intent, -1 Garruk Relentless, -1 Pulse, -1 Recurring Nightmare, -1 Ooze
+2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Deluge, +1 Golgari Charm, +2 Choke

Elves

Harder matchup because they're a creature based combo deck and we have almost no pressure. The matchup actually isn't superb because of it. Stop Natural Order from killing you, but you need multiple sweepers to get anywhere in this matchup. They can put way more power on board and kill much faster.

-1 Sigarda, -1 Thrun, -1 Top, -1 Garruk, -1 Safekeeper, -1 Rhino, -1 Recurring Nightmare
+1 Deluge, +2 Teeg, +1 Charm, +3 Thoughtseize

Reanimator

You have access to maindeck Scooze and Deathrite with some disruption. Not bad! Obviously they can just nut you, so you need to disrupt them. It's not a truly great matchup, but certainly winnable. Pathing Griselbrand is pretty saucy. Watch out for Show and Tell. This matchup gets better if you're playing Priest in the sideboard, of course. Decay can be dead, but it's very live if they're on the Pithing Needle plan.

-1 Garruk Relentless, -1 Sylvan Library, -3 Deed, -1 Phyrexian Tower, -1 Thrun
+3 Thoughtseize, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Extirpate, +2 Carpet of Flowers (allows you to keep mana open for Scooze/Extirpate)

Storm

Not a great matchup. You're a creature control deck with no pressure. Not a great matchup unless you're packing more hate slots. Dryad Militant is good, as is Mindbreak Trap/Chant/etc.

-3 Path, -1 Garruk, -1 Sigarda, -1 Thrun, -1 Recurring Nightmare, -1 Siege Rhino, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -2 Veteran Explorer
+3 Thoughtseize, +2 Gaddock Teeg, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Surgical, +1 Extirpate, +1 Cranial Extraction, +1 Golgari Charm

OmniTell

Stop them from Show and Telling. If they do, don't let them do stuff with Omni :P

-3 Path, -3 Decay, -1 Garruk, -1 Recurring Nightmare, -2 Rhino, -4 Veteran Explorer
+1 Grip, +1 Surgical, +1 Extirpate, +2 Teeg, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Charm, +1 Cranial Extraction (usually for Wish or Omni), +2 Choke, +2 Carpet of Flowers

Show and Tell

Stop them from Sneak Attacking, since you can sometimes handle the fatty if they drop it off Show and Tell itself. Teeg is an all start as long as you can keep them off of Show and Tell. Watch out for Pyroclasm.

-3 Decay, -1 Garruk, -1 Nightmare, -1 Thrun, -1 Safekeeper, -1 Ooze, -3 Deed, -2 Veteran Explorer
+1 Grip, +1 Surgical, +1 Extirpate, +2 Teeg, +3 Thoughtseize, +1 Charm, +1 Cranial Extraction (usually for Sneak or Emrakul, depending), +2 Choke, +2 Carpet of Flowers

[Ralf]

I've been testing a lot Dragonlord Dromoka lately.
Definitely, the card has some great potential.

Anyway, here is my updated list since my previous list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=870695&viewfull=1#post870695)

Grinding Station by Ralf


1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

1 Acidic Slime
1 Deathrite shaman
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Pernicious Deed

1 Golgari Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith


Sideboard

1 Extirpate
2 Choke
1 Stain the Mind
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of flower
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Dryad Militant
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm


Since Dromoka inclusion I had to rework a bit the main deck to take into account the new mana curve:
- Dromoka took Gaddock's slot MD
- Deathrite Shaman took Dryad's slot MD

If you have any questions, feel free to knock on my door.

Edit: Primetime got the axe for KotR. Same goal but cheaper.

[thotcrime]

How valuable have you found Dromoka's "can't cast spells during your turn" ability? Why do you feel this card is such an asset?

[Blastoderm]

How valuable have you found Dromoka's "can't cast spells during your turn" ability? Why do you feel this card is such an asset?

Seems like Sigarda is just better...

[sdematt]

Hexproof be relevant.

[Ralf]

@Thotcrime: The "can't cast spells during your turn" is not THAT relevant, but it did messed up a bit against some Miracle players that did not pay attention preventing EOOT Terminus or Entreat.

@Blastoderm: The card does not compete with Sigarda at all. I'm playing both. But the deck needs a huge lifelink flying blocker since racing your opponent DOES matter from time to time especially against Blade.decks & Tempo with reach and this is where the deck was lacking since I am not playing Rhino. Not to mention that the "cannot be countered" ability has proven to be quite useful a couple of times. We don't draw cards (just filtering through Sensei) and being able to slam another big dude (in addition to Thrun) was often a matter of life or death.

@Sdematt: I guess Sigarda 2.0 would be better but we cannot have it all.

[Paranoid__Android]

Went to a local legacy event today, and went 2-2 again. I was playing with sdmatt's last list. It's very fun to play really. Gravehate, Dread of Nights, Plagues, 2x Meliras, etc...


Round one: Dredge with LED

Lost game one because he was too fast. Game two SCooze got the game. Game three was really tight. Relic was blown by Nature's Claim. Therapy revealed two more Claimes. I was dead in three turns.


Round two: Infect

Game one was lost on his third turn with Berserk on a 6/7 Inkmoth Nexus. Game two&three Melira got the game. 2:1 for me!


Round three: Grixis goodstuff

He lost first two matches and conceded to me do so I could get into Top4.


Round four: Merfolk

Game one double Therapies and Siege Rhino&RecNightmare won the game. Game two&three were horrible. Mana flood all the way. One more turn in a game three lategame And 10 cards could be dead. But, no way. He ''Zerg rushed'' me. :D Lost 1:2. Last time I've won against him 2:0. Well, payback time today. :D

Worst cards today were Garruk Relentless, Sylvan Safekeeper and Diabolic Invent.

[jbone2016]

Split the Finals of a small legacy for a Savannah and some store credit today.

Round 1: Manaless Dredge
Game 1: Ooze turn 2 was good enough. Game 2. Dryad Miltant turn 1, containment priest turn 2. That was enough

Round 2: Grixis Angler (delver + pyro)
Game 1: Early removal into GSZ for 4 earns the scoop. Game 2: Wasting my black source keeps me off the decay and deluge in my hand. Game 3: G. Charm gets a 2 for 1. Thrun and batterskull are too much for the zombie fish.

Round 3: Infect
Game 1: Opening hand thoughtseize takes the turn two away from him. Active Jitte cleans up the rest. Game 2: Double therapy (blind hit the first one) into extripating the Invigorate which I took with the second. Active Jitte cleans the rest.

Round 4: ID

Top 4: Manless Dredge
Game 1: Ooze turn 2. Game 2: Ooze turn 2.

And split. Not a bad day.

[Paranoid__Android]

Split the Finals of a small legacy for a Savannah and some store credit today.

Round 1: Manaless Dredge
Game 1: Ooze turn 2 was good enough. Game 2. Dryad Miltant turn 1, containment priest turn 2. That was enough

Round 2: Grixis Angler (delver + pyro)
Game 1: Early removal into GSZ for 4 earns the scoop. Game 2: Wasting my black source keeps me off the decay and deluge in my hand. Game 3: G. Charm gets a 2 for 1. Thrun and batterskull are too much for the zombie fish.

Round 3: Infect
Game 1: Opening hand thoughtseize takes the turn two away from him. Active Jitte cleans up the rest. Game 2: Double therapy (blind hit the first one) into extripating the Invigorate which I took with the second. Active Jitte cleans the rest.

Round 4: ID

Top 4: Manless Dredge
Game 1: Ooze turn 2. Game 2: Ooze turn 2.

And split. Not a bad day.


Can you post your decklist please? :D

[jbone2016]

I'm a little lazy but here:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=81714

Main deck change:
Out: Swagtusk. With 2 Rhino, Jitte and Batterskull, lifegain isn't really an issue.
In: Golgari Charm from the board.

Sideboard:
Out: Golgari Charm (to main), Cornered Market, Surgical, Elspeth, Night of Soul's Betrayal, Judgment
In: Runed Halo x 2, Tsunami x 2, Armageddon (a bit of 12-post, mud, lands in my area), Extripate

[Megadeus]

That's odd. I know that guy. Didn't know he played this deck

[jbone2016]

That's odd. I know that guy. Didn't know he played this deck

I believe he is in GA, correct? This super IQ was Minnesota and that was my deck. I've been confused with him before.

[Megadeus]

Lol. Yeah. Now that I think about it, his name is one M I believe

[maharis]

I'm a little lazy but here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=81714 Main deck change: Out: Swagtusk. With 2 Rhino, Jitte and Batterskull, lifegain isn't really an issue. In: Golgari Charm from the board. Sideboard: Out: Golgari Charm (to main), Cornered Market, Surgical, Elspeth, Night of Soul's Betrayal, Judgment In: Runed Halo x 2, Tsunami x 2, Armageddon (a bit of 12-post, mud, lands in my area), Extripate

Damn, this is really close to what I played at GPNJ. Maybe I should try it again. Nice result!

[Myelectronicdays]

definately like the list. I've yet to tried a version of nic fit that has sfm's in it.. may have to give it a shot

[Paranoid__Android]

I was thinking about Melira-Viscera Seer-Murderous Redcap/Kitchen Finks combo, and built up a Nic Fit version of it. Straight G/B.

22 lands
Basics, fetchlands, duals, and Two Towers

3x Veteran Explorer
2x Kitchen Finks
3x Dark Confidant
2x Melira, Sylvok Outkast
4x Murderous Redcap
4x Viscera Seer

Spells

3x Abrupt Decay
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Thoughtseize
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Diabolic Invent

61 cards total!

FIrst match on Cockatrice was a Sneak&Show. I was sure that he was thinking that I was playing some sort of Junk, so T1 Viscera Seer, T2 discard, T3 Zenith for Melira, and Show&Tell-ed Murderous Redcap. Game 2 he was Digging through time for an answer, but 2x Confidants and Viscera gave an aggro win.

Any thoughts? Suggestions? :D

[sdematt]

So I had a shower epiphany - what if we were trying to jam red into the Junk build, but what were meant to do was jam Siege Rhino into the Jund build? Realistically, the creature base out of the Jund build, in my opinion, was always lacking consistency. I'd rather have Siege Rhino many times than Huntmaster, and Sigarda over Prime Time. Kessig Wolf Run is good stuff, but we need slots.

So, I present: Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers - Extended Edition with Bonus Commentary - in HD!


3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Punishing Fire
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain


Sideboard

SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Krosan Grip

Basically, the plan is to cut a bunch of the loose garbage to run the package some people have touted as superior - the 3/3 DRS/Vet split. I dislike it, but you need consistent access to white if you're hardcasting Rhinos (ideally, you just pay 4G for them). Sigarda is likely the best evasive threat out collective archetype can offer at reasonable price.

I don't think you need Teeg because Slaughter Games is insane in similar situations. Losing Path does suck, but gaining Blast, especially in a format where OmniTell and Miracles are dirting fair decks out of the game, is quite spicy. Fires also eats those fucking Delver decks for breakfast, as well as the midrange garbage that will come in to try and best the Delver decks.

Thoughts on my crazy ideas?

-Matt

[Jain_Mor]

Looks incredibly greedy.
I love it.

My only concern is that I'd have to get 4 groves haha.
I agree with most of your card choices, pretty impressive that you managed to fit it all in!
I'm sure your 3/3/3/1 split on the removal spells will end up changing but we obviously won't know till you try.
Am concerned that with only 4 cabal therapies you're extremely weak to combo. but I guess it's fine to give up those match ones and focus the sideboard on them more.

(Though you may find you have more than enough removal and could cut some for more discard)

Edit:
(I would also cut a taiga for a scrubland, with all those groves and the basics I don't think you'd need more RG duals and with only one white land at the moment casting those rhinos might be really hard when they've killed your shaman)

If you get some testing in with it, let us know.

[sdematt]

I'll keep y'all posted.

Siege Rhino is just too good. I've run over far too many Pyro tokens to ever stop running him.

Last night, I dirted a Maverick player by locking him out with Tower, Stronghold, and Eternal Witness to loop Path to Exiles. It was glorious. I also could have Recurred Siege Rhinos, but I wanted to him to lose faith in humanity before draining him with the same combo. I didn't attack, no no, that would be too quick.

EDIT:

I think the Mountain might be straight garbage. I might make it a Sylvan Library.

-Matt

[uncletiggy]

Im not sure but cutting a tiaga or a grove for one more white source feels right.

[Jain_Mor]

Edited my post, and you read my mind uncletiggy

[uncletiggy]

This is moving faster then my grandpa technology can keep up with lol. Id be careful cutting the mountain. 4 basics is dangerously low especially in matches where you want to fetch a couple early to avoid getting blown out.

[sdematt]

Or make it a forest?

-Matt

[uncletiggy]

Forest is probably better to start testing with. Library would compete with diabolic intent initially and maybe the nightmare sometime down the road.

[Ralf]

@Sdematt:

Here are a few comments:

1) Huntmaster is on a totally different league than Rhino. Not playing, at least one, is detrimental. I can tell that from experience, he has won me many many games on his own.
One should see him as our "Jace": Deed the world EOOT, land him and watch your opponent die to him. Not to mention that his ability synergies perfectly well with some of the core cards (top + Hunt in play is evil; profit from late drawn cabal therapy etc...)

2) Furthermore, your list is lacking a creature with a 2 for 1 ETB triggers in terms of board control. Rhino does not provide such ability neither Thrun nor Sigarda.

3) I'm wondering whether Thrun is really necessary in your list since you are also playing Sigarda. I can see him being played aside Sigarda in Junk to better deal with U/W control decks but as you have access to Punishing Fire and you don't play Kessig, my belief is that he is not mandatory at all.

So basically, here is the adjusted list:

- 1 Thrun
+1 Huntmaster
- 1 Phyrexian tower
+1 Eternal Witness

I also have adjusted the mana base to take into account your black & red centered sideboard.
So that you have access to 9 white, 14 red, 14 black and 16 green sources to be able to play your spells.
Why ?
T1 -> swamp (fetchs are all swamp centered) for DRS or CT
T2 -> taiga/grove to either be playing PF, AD, Veteran etc...

Post board getting black & red as fast as possible is a matter of life or death.

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Forest
3 Swamp

Phyrexian tower is no longer necessary when playing "Red" as PF can be used on your own veteran if needed.
Nevertheless, to make sure you will as reliably as possible be playing the recurring part of your deck, I have replaced it by another Eternal witness.

I also noticed that you are playing a 61 cards deck which I am fine with.
But I would go for a 14 cards sideboard strategy with Volrath's stronghold as the flex slot (coming out against all combo decks for obvious reasons)

(14 cards)
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Surgical extraction
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Dryad Militant
SB: 1 Krosan Grip

[Star|Scream]

Hey there's a BUG fit player who plays at Mead Hall in MN and they stream legacy every Wednesday. I wonder if he's in the thread? His list looks really interesting. As far as I can tell

Vet
Therapy
Deed
Strix
Brainstorm
Ponder
Jace
Dig
Tasigur
snapcaster
Force
Lili

SB
Pulse
Scooze

That's all I saw. I didn't see any fatties beyond tasigur so I'm guessing he and jace are the wincons.

I'd really love to see the whole list.

[sdematt]

http://mtgpulse.com/event/19888#280191

From a little while ago.

-Matt

[moseby]

Ran a list similar to sdematt's at a local over the weekend. I thought I would take a break from post and squash some delver decks. It turns out, the turn out was not great, and my match ups were even worse. Mono G Post (L), a bye, U/W/r delver control (W), and Miracles to top it off (L).

Post just curb stomped me I got an early Dragonlord Dromoka, he got an early Emrakul. The UWr game was fun, he managed to take game two by smashing me in the face with a hammer of bogardan, I cannot believe how nostalgic I felt after that. And miracles did what they do. All and all it is a good list, I just saw the wrong matchup's.

[pettdan]

I've been playing Punishing Fit lately, going I think 9-2-1 in total in three local tournaments (30-50 players, varied meta) and 3-4 in a slightly larger one (I'll blame it on heavy mulliganing).

I'm basically playing Bobman's list (most lists are quite similar) changing carpets in board to gaddock/cont.priest/canonist and 1 savannah in the main. Also boarding Leyline of the Void for gy hate and liking it - as a bonus it stops DTT's, hurts 2/3 threats in RUG uncounterably, is good vs Goyfs, KotR's, Deathrites, P.Fires etc. And also often undiscardable, unabrupt decayable. My other tweaks are running maindeck 4 Liliana, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Recurring N and 1 Acidic Slime.

I'm trying to figure out what to do with my 15th sideboard slot and would want something vs Cloudpost and Marit Lage. Any tips?

I have 1 Blood Moon already in the board against these two strategies and possibly should add a second copy. I'm also considering a single Pithing Needle for Stage vs Marit Lage decks (but Lands, Maverick and Loam Pox being the main Lage decks around can all answer it easily, I think) or pithing for Expedition Map(?) vs Cloudpost. Also considering and leaning towards a third Slaughter Games for Primeval Titan vs Cloudpost or Loam/KotR/Crop Rotation vs Lage Decks. The latter use seems somewhat lackluster but Games comes in vs Miracles and combo decks too and seems very valuable there.

I did consider Ruination, From the Ashes and Sowing Salt too... Not too different from Blood Moon.

Actually the Slime is partly there for its assumed relevance vs Cloudposts and Dark Depths, especially coupled with Recurring N. It may rarely occur but Slime can be tutored for so it's basically a question of topping for the RN.

For reference here is the current sb:
2 Slaughter Games
2 Krosan Grip
2 REB
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Blood Moon

[Tom4ik]

I am the player that was on the meadery a few times with BUGfit. The last four weeks I have went 4-0, 2-1-1, and twice 3-0 and draw the last round. The way the price works out many people end up drawing the last round.

2 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island
2 creeping tarpit
2 misty rainforest
3 verdant catacombs
3 polluted delta
2 island
2 swamp
2 forest

4 veteran explorer
2 baleful strix
2 snapcaster mage
2 thragtusk
2 tasigur, the golden fang

4 cabal therapy
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 force of will
3 jace, the mind sculpter
2 liliana, of the veil
3 pernicious deed
3 abrupt decay
2 dig through time



My sb changes. I ran 2 back to basics last week because I saw tons of 12 post and lands bros around but I dont like the card generally. I brough tit in against bug delver but probably wouldnt in the future. Otherwise my sb is usually


2 notion thief
2 surgical extraction
2 thoughtsieze
2 negate
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 scavenging ooze



With a different flux of cards depending on the night. So things like Glen elendra, diabolic edict, maelstrom pulse.

[Bobmans]

I've been playing Punishing Fit lately, going I think 9-2-1 in total in three local tournaments (30-50 players, varied meta) and 3-4 in a slightly larger one (I'll blame it on heavy mulliganing).

I'm basically playing Bobman's list (most lists are quite similar) changing carpets in board to gaddock/cont.priest/canonist and 1 savannah in the main. Also boarding Leyline of the Void for gy hate and liking it - as a bonus it stops DTT's, hurts 2/3 threats in RUG uncounterably, is good vs Goyfs, KotR's, Deathrites, P.Fires etc. And also often undiscardable, unabrupt decayable. My other tweaks are running maindeck 4 Liliana, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Recurring N and 1 Acidic Slime.

I'm trying to figure out what to do with my 15th sideboard slot and would want something vs Cloudpost and Marit Lage. Any tips?

I have 1 Blood Moon already in the board against these two strategies and possibly should add a second copy. I'm also considering a single Pithing Needle for Stage vs Marit Lage decks (but Lands, Maverick and Loam Pox being the main Lage decks around can all answer it easily, I think) or pithing for Expedition Map(?) vs Cloudpost. Also considering and leaning towards a third Slaughter Games for Primeval Titan vs Cloudpost or Loam/KotR/Crop Rotation vs Lage Decks. The latter use seems somewhat lackluster but Games comes in vs Miracles and combo decks too and seems very valuable there.

I did consider Ruination, From the Ashes and Sowing Salt too... Not too different from Blood Moon.

Actually the Slime is partly there for its assumed relevance vs Cloudposts and Dark Depths, especially coupled with Recurring N. It may rarely occur but Slime can be tutored for so it's basically a question of topping for the RN.

For reference here is the current sb:
2 Slaughter Games
2 Krosan Grip
2 REB
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Blood Moon

Good to hear Punishing Fit still gets some gametime.

Marit Lage and Cloudpost decks are problematic for PFire NicFit. Mostly any deck that gets bigger thru ramping is though. Blood Moon can work wonders, but it does affect our own wanky manabase. Yes, we do run a ton of basics. It might work, but i feel it is narrow and can work against us.

Currently i am packing a single Pithing Needle and a single Diabolic Edict in the board against Marit Lage.dec. I don't know if it is enough, really missing Wasteland here. Good thing about both Peedle as Edict is that they work against other cards/decks aswell like Jace, Ugin or Sneak/Show or Reanimate in general.

Ruination and mass landdestruction might be O K, but then i feel that the deck would need at least a single Life from the Loam (and Eternal Witness / Volrath's Stronghold).

Adding white to JUND seems appealling, but i feel that it makes the manabase more shaky. I am currently not having to many problems with the JUND manabase, but i think it might gonna make it so shaky that it cost us games. And winning games is so tight already. Also the missers Priest and Canonist not being green makes them too random i think.

A. Slime is appealling, but his CMC might make it to slow.

[Ralf]

Good to hear Punishing Fit still gets some gametime.

Marit Lage and Cloudpost decks are problematic for PFire NicFit. Mostly any deck that gets bigger thru ramping is though. Blood Moon can work wonders, but it does affect our own wanky manabase. Yes, we do run a ton of basics. It might work, but i feel it is narrow and can work against us.

Currently i am packing a single Pithing Needle and a single Diabolic Edict in the board against Marit Lage.dec. I don't know if it is enough, really missing Wasteland here. Good thing about both Peedle as Edict is that they work against other cards/decks aswell like Jace, Ugin or Sneak/Show or Reanimate in general.

Ruination and mass landdestruction might be O K, but then i feel that the deck would need at least a single Life from the Loam (and Eternal Witness / Volrath's Stronghold).

Adding white to JUND seems appealling, but i feel that it makes the manabase more shaky. I am currently not having to many problems with the JUND manabase, but i think it might gonna make it so shaky that it cost us games. And winning games is so tight already. Also the missers Priest and Canonist not being green makes them too random i think.

A. Slime is appealling, but his CMC might make it to slow.

If you refer back to the Primer first page, my Punishing list is including 2 edict MD.
You don't need a definitive answer to Marit Lage shenanigans G1. Usually edict will buy enough time to use Lili's ultimate to even buy more time to eventually kill your opponent before he gets to recover his whole mana base.

Obviously, this MU become better post board.

Funniest thing is that the MD Edicts were not much for fighting back against Marit Lage.decks but for improving by a fair margin matchups like S&S and Infest.

[sdematt]

The thing is Slaughter Games and REB are REALLY REALLY good against Miracles and Omni, which are poised to be the two menaces. We don't care too much about the Stoneblade and Delver decks that will try to beat it, since we beat the crap out of those decks without problem (but again, REB makes it even easier). However, as I've said, Rhino and Sigarda are much better threats. We can talk about Huntmaster this and that, but Rhino-town gets the job done. This is why I wanted to test the Jund splash white build. Fires is also very good against all the little critters decks.

If I can't get the Jund+W build together and running smoothly for Prague/Lille, I'll run Junk at Prague and see how it goes.

-Matt

[Ralf]

The thing is Slaughter Games and REB are REALLY REALLY good against Miracles and Omni, which are poised to be the two menaces. We don't care too much about the Stoneblade and Delver decks that will try to beat it, since we beat the crap out of those decks without problem (but again, REB makes it even easier). However, as I've said, Rhino and Sigarda are much better threats. We can talk about Huntmaster this and that, but Rhino-town gets the job done. This is why I wanted to test the Jund splash white build. Fires is also very good against all the little critters decks.

If I can't get the Jund+W build together and running smoothly for Prague/Lille, I'll run Junk at Prague and see how it goes.

-Matt

You didn't get my point or you didn't read carefully.

I'm not questioning the 4 rhino thing. I'm questioning the Thrun's slot in your 4 color Fit.
Both have their pros and cons and it could only be a meta thing.
Overall, I think Mr Hunt has a light advantage over Mr Thrun:
- better synergy with top
- better synergy with cabal therapy
- better synergy with recurring nightmare
- worse on the defensive aspect of the deck
- better on the offensive aspect of the deck
- easier to cast (RG against GG)
- GSZ for Hunt > GSZ for Thrun
- Drawing Hunt < Drawing Thrun

Even if we should value more the defensive aspect of Thrun as we are a control deck, I want to be sure we explore every option given to us.

I have played quite a few games with your 4 Color Fit suggestions making my own changes, here are some few other remarks:

1) Diabolic Intent -> I cannot draw any conclusion about the card but my gut feeling is that after 30 games (at least as I didn't count them all) I'm not THAT happy to draw it. Eventually, it screwed me more than it helped me. Sure the following shenanigan "sac a vet or a rhino, fetch RN & start looping" is nice and all, but the main scenario was a board with only 1 creature on my side with me trying to crawl back into the game and in this particular scenario you don't expose yourself by sac'ing your only threat/defense.

2) 23 lands is too many. IMHO, the phyrexian tower is not needed at all. But 22 was too fragile while keeping the Stronghold. I think 22 is the perfect number but without the two towers. PF & RN are enough as recurring tools.

3) a 6th basic mana source seems to be mandatory. Several games I wish I had a 6th basic to fetch for with late dying explorers. As a matter of fact, I would pick a plains.

4) I miss some proactive spells @ CMC = 3. I might try to include a couple of Liliana in the deck (max 2). But I still think this might be a bad idea as a 4 color GSZ deck shouldn't include any double color requirement in its spells except a few green creature. Anyway, too many times, I had the feeling that I was not taking advantage of my T1 land + DRS & T2 land + nothing...
The other option is to cut maelstrom pulse and include a couple of vindicate.

5) As expected, Mr Hunt did his duty but sometimes I wish I had also Mr Thrun. I'll be cutting a witness for him and give it a shot.

Here is the updated MD list:
11 white sources, 12 red, 14 black and 15 green. If the SB turns out to be whiter than redder, I guess the mana base would have to be adjusted again.


3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Punishing Fire
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Plains
2 Forest
3 Swamp


Happy to discuss.

[sdematt]

Yeah, I totally misread. I thought you were thinking Huntmaster OVER Rhino, not Thrun, I apologize.

Yeah, I think in 4C, Intent might be worse, but it does fetch pieces of the combo, but it might be not relevant if our density is high enough.

Your list looks great. I'll proxy it up and run with it.

Sideboard, I'm thinking:

3 REB
2 Slaughter Games
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm

[Myelectronicdays]

yeah love that 4c list.. now i need to buy some foil vindicates to try it out ;x

Right now I have been thinking about going back to the pfire version for the sole fact my meta is ALOT of combo.. and alot of omni.. i need those rebs... and would love slaughter games back.

be nice if this worked as an inbetween..

at the same time i love that previous slaughter games MD list

[uncletiggy]

Did that titania/kotr list ever emerge im sold on my rhino list for now and want to do so brewing so its that or a walker list. Id really like to try rector + doubling season with the walkers lili primal hunter and vraska seem great with rector doubling season and intent. Just not sure if its worth buying the playset of rectors. Any experience going this route anyone?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Yeah I think I'll be re-buying therapies, deeds, and vindicates on MTGO tonight myself to give it a spin. It's looking really tight for a 4 color build.

Great content, I need to read this thread more.

[Gazoline]

Ive been thinking of a 4c deck myself... ive been running a 3 groove jund list that been working really good. but not sure how good a three of groove is in a deck without primeval titan...

anyway this is what ive been thinking about (iv always been a casual player and recently started legacy so excuse me if there are very many gaps in my
deck. but thats why i need you isnt it? ;)

I know DRS is good but i most of the time prefer to gsz after a veteran explorer if need mana rather then drs...

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Broodmate Dragon

1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain/ or phrexian tower
1 Plains

[sdematt]

Gazoline, I think you're undervaluing Top. It's amazing. Run at least 3, no exceptions. I ran 4, but I was always seeing double. 3 has been nice.

The sole reason I'm running more DRS in the 4 colour build is that Veteran accelerates, but doesn't necessarily colourfix the way Shaman can. Shaman is making mana as long as lands are in graveyards. Vet has to die in a specific way to get on colour so to marry the two, I'm running the 3/3 split. Perhaps it's incorrect, but testing will tell.

Siege Rhino is VERY good, and he's the reason to run white (along with hate and Path, but you know what I mean). What's y'alls thoughts on Vindicate vs. Pulse? Is it worth being able to destroy lands if we're also doing the accelerating? Feels weird, at least to me.

Thoughts?

-Matt

[Gazoline]

Thanks for the quick reply!

Never really got the hang of the top. most of the time i felt like if my best play was going for the top then i was most of the time already screwed. (but i gotta admit a top for pernicous deed and kill whole opponent table was fun!) but i might just be an amatuer when it comes to using it aswell ^^

Hmm true drs brings more stability 3/3 might be a better way to go in a 4c version. I really love vindicate not only for landdestruction but also for planeswalkers that ive experienced can be a bitch to take care of sometimes as a nicfit deck.

i liked Decimate alot. opponents wasnt prepared for it. against DnT it was a real killer. but sorcery n 4mana is a bit much most of the time.

[uncletiggy]

Pulse and deed fill similar roles where as vindicate can remove pesky tar pits and other lands that can be obstacles like tabernacle glacial chasm and karakas. Vindicate is probably right.

[Ralf]

Siege Rhino is VERY good, and he's the reason to run white (along with hate and Path, but you know what I mean). What's y'alls thoughts on Vindicate vs. Pulse? Is it worth being able to destroy lands if we're also doing the accelerating? Feels weird, at least to me.

Thoughts?

-Matt

Pulse

I've been pondering a lot lately whether vindicate brings some added value instead of Pulse.

I guess you might be right. The ability to "hit" lands might not be what we are looking for.
Furthermore, I might have overlooked the "Pulse" thing being able to hit multiple permanents with the same name on the battlefield. It does not happen repeatedly but when it does, it feels very good.

From my testing such a case didn't show up yet. Vindicate has been what Pulse would have been except against 12 post where I was able to sneak a win through a vindicate "flashbacked" with the help of Witness.
Corner case that is...

Thus to draw sort of a conclusion, I would say that if your meta is filled with 12 post, Infest and random rogue decks using "utility lands", vindicate should be a better choice over say Pulse.
If not, Pulse is the way to go as being able to hit a double delver or some token strategy + being more "in color" with the core deck will always be better.

3 CMC

If we don't use vindicate at all.
I feel we are still missing proactive stuff @ CMC = 3 because there is no chance Pulse will ever be a proactive spell...

My feeling is the same with Deed. It is a reactive spell that can however be played as a proactive one against the proper opponent (deck with no decay or U/W control).

And I'm sure I'm not the only one being reluctant to play a deed on an open field:
- without mana to crack it
- or an empty board
just to see it "decayed" at EOT or during the following turn.

I might be wrong. But, usually I only play deed when I can "insta" crack it to get some value. Unless I'm pushed back so far that it is my only way out if there is one left...

Anyway, the deck feels low on the CMC = 3 proactive side and I'm trying to fix that.

Liliana

As already stated, Liliana is an "all-star" in traditional Jund Fit list. She might be the best of both Pulse & Vindicate worlds:
1) Her ultimate, although very slow to get to, can hit lands
2) She brings virtual CA back into the deck (which pleases me) and she does not die to Deed (unlike Sylvan Library)
3) She might be a bit better as a reactive spell (as she guarantees a 2 for 1) than a proactive one but I don't bother slamming her in as fast as I can do
4) We play PF.
5) She slows the game's path down which is what a control deck should be aiming for
5) BUT she costs BB...

Hymn to Tourach / Sylvan Library

If Liliana emphasis more the defensive aspect of the deck, we can also explore some more offensive method:

HTT might not be what we are looking for but until we test it, one can never say "never". BB on T2 is pretty darn tough to get and can screw you more than we might think... But well it has to be mentioned. We might be entering too much in the Rock territory without the proper tools to maintain (wasteland to name it) but I had quite a few games where I was slamming threats after threats since T3 until my opponent ran out of answers (counterspell) and the game could have been even faster with a HTT on T2.

What I also like with HTT is that this spell is good against almost any MU including Combo ones. No need to mention that we are pretty naked G1 against most combo deck and this spell can be a haymaker.

SL is kinda way slower than HTT. It is a nonbo with Deed but as we are playing both we should be able to get value from both spells without that much a nuisance. SL might be far easier for us to play because of its color cost. We all know the SL "in & out":
- the second SL you draw is bad (unless you had to deed away the first one) but if we play it, 2 copies feels like the perfect number
- SL is slow
- SL cost life and might be a bad sensei most of the time if our HP are under pressure
- But SL + Rhino + Hunt is a great synergy
- A unanswered SL on T2 against a fair deck is usually game


Anyway, I will test the three of them and come back to you. Lili might have my preference.

Any idea what to cut to include at least 2 copies of each if we keep a one-of "Pulse" ?

Cheers,

[Arianrhod]

Pulse and deed fill similar roles where as vindicate can remove pesky tar pits and other lands that can be obstacles like tabernacle glacial chasm and karakas. Vindicate is probably right.

This is why I ran Vindicate as a 1-of in my white lists for a looooong time. I eventually devalued the removal package slightly and ended up cutting it for space, but the Vindicate was always good to me for exactly this reason. It also gives us SOMETHING to do vs 12post et al.

[sdematt]

I mean, I'm looking for ANY excuse to dust off my Vindicates, but recall that we're Jund + White, and I don't want to have to fetch white until the last possible moment. I'm sure we'll have mana with DRS and such, but you get where I'm going. Maybe I'm wrong on the mana, but we'll see

Pulse has been magical in hitting multiple permanents before. I don't think Vindicate does more work against 12-Post, at least, not enough to win us that matchup. By god it's awful.

Ralf does make some good points. I liked the 1-of Sylvan in my Junk list, and I'm playing 2 in regular Jund. The card wins games on its own.

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Scavenging Ooze
15

3 Punishing Fire
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate (or 2 Liliana, or 1 Pulse 1 Vindicate)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
23

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Plains
2 Forest
3 Swamp
22

I definitely think this is a good place to start, but if we start cutting Rhinos and such for Liliana/Sylvans, we're going to be in a heap of trouble and dilute what we're trying to do. Since we're only at 60, the obvious :cool: choice to just jam in Sylvan. In my Junk build, many times I'm going up to 24-28 life and then just ancestral recalling turn after turn. It's not a bad card, it's on colour, etc. and it helps us find more stuff. Plus, it is card selection and advantage, not just selection like with Top.

I think for the thread going forward, let's try to test this build. We know Jund and Junk are fine builds and likely only need tuning, so I think we need to see if this works in principle and go from there. Lille and Prague Eternal are coming up, so I'd love for us to share results before then.

-Matt

[Bobmans]

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Plains
2 Forest
3 Swamp
22


That manabase.. missing out on the Two Towers AND this lacks red sources to effectively grind out games with PFire. At least 3 red sources outside of Groves are required. I would cut white sources for red. Plus why depend on white mana to use cards like Vindicate. I think the real power comes from a JUND core with some powerhouses like Rhino, Teeg, Sigarda, etc. but holding those to a minimum seems best to me.

I suppose i would go for:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

The single plains and mountain are important as it can be fetched with Veteran Explorer. This means you can color fix your hand without (reduced) risk of Wasteland. Wooded Foothills instead of Bloodstained, because now you can get every dual with all the fetches you require to find. Also i would probably go for a 4/2 split between Veteran and DRS, since color fixing is SOOO important. I found that DRS does improve your ability to ramp, but VetEx is more reliable and causes blowouts more often then DRS. White sources are much less important to have, since all the goodstuff can be found with GSZ to.

I would probably also cut a Siege Rhino and a Vindicate for 2x Liliana of the Veil and swap the remaining Vindicate for a Pulse. Pulse has been very important in some matches. Multiple Pithing Needles or Angel tokens. The card has win me in situations where Vindicate would not have. Offcourse it would be the only way to remove annoying lands.

[Ralf]

That manabase.. missing out on the Two Towers AND this lacks red sources to effectively grind out games with PFire. At least 3 red sources...

I suppose i would go for:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
.

Since vindicate is gone. I should have mentioned that the savannah must be cut in favor of a taiga.

And no playing with only 12 black sources is dangerous. Because, most likely postboard, your best spell would need red & black.

Being able to fetch for scrubland + taiga against a deck with no wasteland is the best configuration you could get.

I would also add that two red sources are likely to be enough as we are not a PF build in its core. Killing someone with PF would still be possible just not as fast as a True Jund Fit build.

More to come later as I will be able to make a lot of tests this week end.

[Bobmans]

I would also add that two red sources are likely to be enough as we are not a PF build in its core. Killing someone with PF would still be possible just not as fast as a True Jund Fit build.

Looking at it this way i could probably say that it is safe to cut down Grove to 3 and PFire to 2.

Also i would like to see how a miser Life from the Loam and Volrath's Stronghold (along with Eternal Witness) would perform in a list like this. Diabolic Intent should be included aswell in that case.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Since vindicate is gone. I should have mentioned that the savannah must be cut in favor of a taiga.

And no playing with only 12 black sources is dangerous. Because, most likely postboard, your best spell would need red & black.

Being able to fetch for scrubland + taiga against a deck with no wasteland is the best configuration you could get.

I would also add that two red sources are likely to be enough as we are not a PF build in its core. Killing someone with PF would still be possible just not as fast as a True Jund Fit build.

More to come later as I will be able to make a lot of tests this week end.Adding a Taiga is definitely something I wanted after playing a few matches last night. If I drop the vindicates I definitely want to try that out, I have a tough time resisting that card though.

I had a lot of fun playing the deck and out of 3 matches I ended 2 games with looped rhinos in stalled out boards courtesy of the recurring nightmare. That's so fun when you get to the late game and can trigger rhino 2-3 times a turn. I was worried that rhino would be hard to cast but I didn't have any trouble casting him on time in my first few matches. Beat a UWR dig-blade deck and a grixis pyromancer deck with probe and therapy, and lost to ANT in 2 games when I couldn't mulligan into any of the action in Matt's example board he posted. Overall pretty normal nic fit experience except for my throw away game 2 versus ANT. It played a lot like normal punishing fit so I was very comfortable from the get-go.

[MD.Ghost]

Nice brewing guys!

I really like the Rhinos but i would cut one for a Garruk Relentless (i still like his abilities here). I also see a Taiga as the right choice. Without Vindicate i would run 1 Library and 1 Pulse, because both are very important vs Miracle! I like Liliana in Jund Fit, but i agree with Ralf - double black seems to hard..

------

Me and my best friend brewing about the common Punishing build with Tasigur and we got some nice results at testing. But it is too early for the discussion here. I will play the stuff the next local tournament for more real results. For me the current meta looks perfect for the red build. Blasts, Slaughter Games etc. seems the way to go against Omnishow, Miracle etc. - all the other fair decks are most of the time good matchups anyway.

[Kanti]

Any thoughts on a how a saucy Destructive Flow list would look like? I'm pretty sure it would start off with 3 DRS/3 Vet just to pump out t2 Flows every once and again. t1 Vet, t2 Therapy for Force, land Flow also seems strong.

[Warden]

I'm really looking at playing Nic Fit. The 4C lists and discussion on the previous page are fascinating. I'll actually have to test the deck but I'm looking at:
3 Veteran
3 DRS
3 Rhino
1 Witness
1 Scooze
/11

4 GSZ
4 Cabal
4 Deed/Toxic
3 Top
3 Decay
1 Recurring
/19

From here, I can't figure out what to do. Part of me says go Junk and splash red. Going Jund means you push pfires-grove and I'm not sure that's what I necessarily want.

[sdematt]

Groves is hard on the manabase, plus you need to actually connect A+B to get it all working. That's the problem I've been finding, even when playing Jund/Jund Fit. Having red IS super nice, though.

-Matt

[Bobmans]

Any thoughts on a how a saucy Destructive Flow list would look like? I'm pretty sure it would start off with 3 DRS/3 Vet just to pump out t2 Flows every once and again. t1 Vet, t2 Therapy for Force, land Flow also seems strong.

Destructive Flow. The more i think about working on a list that will make this work the more my head start to spin. The cards mechanic is conflicting with the core strategies of anything i can think of PFire NicFit (Groves), ScapeWish (Valakut) or even Jund Depths (Depths, Stage). The last one runs Wasteland and Life from the Loam that could altogether serieusly lock down opponents, but still a lot of the DtB run enough basics to not care. Altogether i think i would rather run Blood Moon. Also the lack of (room for) Wasteland makes that it kinda suc.

[uncletiggy]

Sleeved up the four color build last night and noticed I was out of huntmasters gonna be trying a courser in his place. Off the top of my head im on.

4 vet
2 deathrite
1 scooze
1 witnes
1 courser
1 thrun
1 sigarda
4 rhino

4 decay
3 pfire
2 deed
4 cabal
3 liliana

3 gsz
3 top
1 intent
1 nightmare

22 lands

Likely to cut one lili for the zenith playing three feels like sacrilege but I really want to see Lily so I can determine if she does whats needed of her.

[Warden]

@uncletiggy: I'd shave intent and 1 liliana for 2 toxic deluge and run that. I'm all about deluge ruining opponents right now.

[uncletiggy]

I'll definetly keep that in mind it's however more likely if I shave those numbers one of the cards becomes the fourth zenith. I also am fairly in love with g charm so it'd be a toss up between the third deed g charm and deluge for that spot.

[Bobmans]

Today is a good day, i finally got my PFire list full Japanese. I posted some images in the pimp thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=881191&viewfull=1#post881191)


UPDATE: 27-05-2015
My list is currently:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Thragtusk
2 Stormbreath Dragon

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge


OUTDATED:
Some choices:
MD Slaughter Games: I have been seeing a lot of ANT, Miracles and S&T variants and wanted a better Game 1 versus those decks. Plus that being uncouterable is pretty relevant in this "blue" meta and that extracting something out of a deck is never bad against any matchup.
Pithing Needle and Diabolic Edict: Marit Lage, basicly any deck running Depths is pretty difficult to prevent losing from. Especially Turbo Depths and Dark Maverick are difficult to combat. Plus that both cards are solid in a lot of other matchups aswell.

Things to try soon (just for the fun of it):
Meh, to slow when relevant: Ruric thar, the unbowed
Still needs testing: Harbinger of the Hunt: the ability to blow up the field and it having flying seems legit. Yes, it dies to bolt, but who cares...
Not interesting: Savage Ventmaw

[Echelon]

Harbinger of the Hunt: the ability to blow up the field and it having flying seems legit. Yes, it dies to bolt, but who cares...

Well, something you just invested 5 mana in getting killed by something your opponent spent 1 mana on is pretty awesome... But that's a bit of a meta call. If you expect little red, it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Also, it gets killed by blocking or getting blocked by a Delver. That's always fun.

Also, this reeks of The Danger Of Cool Things. Especially the Ventmaw, it's strictly a win-more card. For one less mana you can have Sigarda on the field and swing a couple of times for the win.

[Bobmans]

Well, something you just invested 5 mana in getting killed by something your opponent spent 1 mana on is pretty awesome... But that's a bit of a meta call. If you expect little red, it shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Also, it gets killed by blocking or getting blocked by a Delver. That's always fun.

Also, this reeks of The Danger Of Cool Things. Especially the Ventmaw, it's strictly a win-more card. For one less mana you can have Sigarda on the field and swing for the win.

It is always cool to try stuff before snap judging it to the litter bin. Again, arguing that stuff dies to bolt is rather boring. I'd rather see my stuff get bolted then Swords to Plowshares. Eternal Witness and Volrath's Stronghold are cards to? And who in the worlds wants to block or gets block by Delver insect, theres just tons of stuff in this deck to get rid of the silly insect. Plus Harbringer can blow it up aswell. And offcourse there is the Sigarda argument. The bitch is white... I really cannot get behind that you are arguing why i shouldn't be doing cool stuff that seems to weak or is to mediocre to be competative. Wheres the fun to play conservative. Is it wrong doing things "different"?

[Megadeus]

I'd rather play Broodmate tbh. Makes 2 dudes, neither dies to bolt, doesn't "die" to STP because two guys, 8 power in the air is a lot. Also passes the Jace/Liliana Test. Also is pretty powerful with the 2 towers making a 4/4 every turn.

[Myelectronicdays]

Today is a good day, i finally got my PFire list full Japanese. I posted some images in the pimp thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?4607-DO-NOT-TRY-TO-SELL-IN-HERE-Pimp-Legacy-Decks&p=881191&viewfull=1#post881191)

My list is currently:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Slaughter Games
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge


Some choices:
MD Slaughter Games: I have been seeing a lot of ANT, Miracles and S&T variants and wanted a better Game 1 versus those decks. Plus that being uncouterable is pretty relevant in this "blue" meta and that extracting something out of a deck is never bad against any matchup.
Pithing Needle and Diabolic Edict: Marit Lage, basicly any deck running Depths is pretty difficult to prevent losing from. Especially Turbo Depths and Dark Maverick are difficult to combat. Plus that both cards are solid in a lot of other matchups aswell.

Things to try soon (just for the fun of it):
Ruric thar, the unbowed: Will it be a bomb, or will it just sux hard against combo/control matchup's.
Harbinger of the Hunt: the ability to blow up the field and it having flying seems legit. Yes, it dies to bolt, but who cares...
Savage Ventmaw: not sure why, but i just want to see if getting tons of mana will be worth anything, especially with harbringer on the field.

fantastic! looks great! I am trying out your exact same list right now and I love it..

[Bobmans]

I'd rather play Broodmate tbh. Makes 2 dudes, neither dies to bolt, doesn't "die" to STP because two guys, 8 power in the air is a lot. Also passes the Jace/Liliana Test. Also is pretty powerful with the 2 towers making a 4/4 every turn.

Sure, this is all true. With 0 expectations about the newly printed dragons i am gonna put them to the test. To be or not to be...

[Bobmans]

fantastic! looks great! I am trying out your exact same list right now and I love it..

Cool, is that on MTGO or paper?

[Myelectronicdays]

right now on paper.. but i only get out to play like once or twice a month.. ive been super tempted to just sell a couple cards from my binder that i never use so i can play it on modo.

i can be convinced i think to buy it modo... if i did.. i'd love to record some matches with it.

[OCPunisher]

Here is the updated MD list:
11 white sources, 12 red, 14 black and 15 green. If the SB turns out to be whiter than redder, I guess the mana base would have to be adjusted again.


3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Punishing Fire
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained mire
1 Plains
2 Forest
3 Swamp


Happy to discuss.

Gonna sleeve this monstrosity up for tonight's Legacy FNM event. Will report how it goes on Monday.

[jbone2016]

Small event today with some horrible matchup.
Lost to elves in 3. Lost the third game to 1/1 since my humility was in play.
Lost to omni-tell in 3. Aven mindcensor is reasonable against them.
Bye.
Beat sneak/show in 3. Containment priest is a house.
Lost to tins fins in 3. Found no good hate the third game. Mulliganed 4 times in this match.

[Echelon]

Wheres the fun to play conservative. Is it wrong doing things "different"?

You do know I'm the guy who runs a build with Summoner's Egg and Emrakul & assorted friends, right..? I honestly believe hardcasting Elesh Norn is a viable game plan (in my build at least). Last tournament I heard someone on a table next to me say "Hearing the things you're doing makes me think we're playing EDH", lol. I believe what he heard was me feeding an Egg to Phyrexian Tower (which I topdecked), revealing an Emrakul and after that hardcasting Elesh Norn with mana open to pay for an eventual Daze. That made my day :laugh:

Trying different stuff is fine but no reason to disregard any form of logic. This is "it's big and green so we can Natural Order for it" in the Elves! section all over again. Yes, there are a lot of cool things out there but none of them do the job better than Craterhoof To The Face (TM). Especially if your replacement dies to a number of common cards the last option was immune to, even if it was OMGWTFBBQ-awesome in your mind...

[Bobmans]

Trying different stuff is fine but no reason to disregard any form of logic. This is "it's big and green so we can Natural Order for it" in the Elves! section all over again. Yes, there are a lot of cool things out there but none of them do the job better than Craterhoof To The Face (TM). Especially if your replacement dies to a number of common cards the last option was immune to, even if it was OMGWTFBBQ-awesome in your mind...

What's problem against it really? This isn't the Elves thread. I am taking a perfectly tuned list and change a couple of creatures to ones that wouldn't make the cut. Nothing illogical about just doing it instead thinking about why not to. I just wasnt feeling for discussing the obvious flaws like "bolt kills it" or whatever. Now i've end up in an even worse discussion. The worst thing that can happen is that the cards turn out exactly as predicted, but then at least i can say that i actually tried it instead of only having stupid discussions about it.

[Echelon]

Enjoy!

[uncletiggy]

@bobmans- I really want a treetop somewhere in the list playing courser and prime time. Id probably slot it in over the fourth grove. Didn't look to see how it would affect your red sources tho.

[Bobmans]

@bobmans- I really want a treetop somewhere in the list playing courser and prime time. Id probably slot it in over the fourth grove. Didn't look to see how it would affect your red sources tho.
Running Treetop Village could be a serious consideration. If i where to replace it with a land in this current i would consider either:
Grove of the Burnwillows - the question is, will it lose consitency with the Pfire/Grove interaction. Grove is often the target for Wasteland and people seem to hold Wasteland back cus they try to hold back PFire loop. Running means you van afgord to loose one.
Forest - switching from green to green wouldn't hurt the manabase (expect it coming tapped into play). But a 5 basic manbase with 4 Veteran Explorer maindeck seem excessive. Perhaps it would work better in my previous setup running 3 Vet and 4 Deathrite Shaman.
Phyrexian Tower - altough you'd loose solid interactions and the two tower + eternal witness loop i would say that this would be the safest choice. T1 VetEx into T2 Phyrexian Tower + bomb is good, still pretty random.

[uncletiggy]

Yeah I almost always want one with prime time running around its very tempting to play two but I believe its wrong. I could see testing over the grove or the tower I hold the same reservations about cutting another basic. If your playing sixty I could see going up to sixty one.

[Bobmans]

Yeah I almost always want one with prime time running around its very tempting to play two but I believe its wrong. I could see testing over the grove or the tower I hold the same reservations about cutting another basic. If your playing sixty I could see going up to sixty one.
Putting 1 slaughter games in the board and ditching garruk from the board is an option to.
Also the REB's havent been performing as i hoped so i am considerin of cutting those.

[tilzinger]

Been quietly trolling this thread for a couple months now after a friend recommended Nic Fit as a first Legacy deck. So far having a blast with it. Very interactive and fun stuff to do. I'm playing Junk right now b/c its the cheapest entry point for me (sharing duals with my Karador EDH deck and have several cards from playing Modern).

This is my deck as it currently stands. So far testing on Cockatrice I feel like I'm 50/50 or maybe 55/45 in match ups. Just played a guy that said "nice brew" after beating him twice. Wish I could say I brewed this myself :)

My friend plays Lands, 12 Post, and Infect. Both Lands and 12 Post are silly hard to beat. I get so close to beating him often then he comes out of no where and wins. Any tips on beating those 2 match ups? I have a few more cards to acquire before I can go to my LGS, which I'm looking forward to doing with this.

3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Swords to Plowshares

1 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter (Eventually will be a Wasteland, just here to deal with Maze, Karakas etc)
1 Overgrown Tomb (Instead of a 2nd Bayou, money and all that. Working out OK so far :/)
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dryad Militant
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Toxic Deluge

Yeah, a couple Tops would be nice here, but again, starting off with a cheaper budget and will move up into more things.

[Megadeus]

I haven't played this deck in a year or two, but I remember those as being some of the tougher match ups since you don't attack the mana base of either (to prevent 12 post from making a million mana and to stop Lands out of nowhere win). I'm not sure if 12 Post is really a deck that you can make into a winnable match up barring you like playing Sowing Salts or something. I think a lot of the time you will just have to play tight and hope they stumble

[sdematt]

What's the card that destroys all nonbasics lands? Ruination? Could just run that.

-Matt

[tilzinger]

Both of those are good ideas, but would require red, which pushes me towards Punishing Fit unless I get a Taiga or just throw in a basic mountain (or another shock land).

[ironclad8690]

You could play Armageddon, but only use it once you have established a threat (Titania ideally).

[tilzinger]

You could play Armageddon, but only use it once you have established a threat (Titania ideally).

That is actually quite hilarious. I might try this.

[sdematt]

Armageddon nukes us. Try ruination.

[Myelectronicdays]

Just picked up my punishing list on mtgo today.. going to start jamming games heavily with it.. hope to get some dailies in, within the next week. Will post updates.

[monaco.errante]

My list is currently:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Slaughter Games
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Extirpate
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge


Some choices:
MD Slaughter Games: I have been seeing a lot of ANT, Miracles and S&T variants and wanted a better Game 1 versus those decks. Plus that being uncouterable is pretty relevant in this "blue" meta and that extracting something out of a deck is never bad against any matchup.
Pithing Needle and Diabolic Edict: Marit Lage, basicly any deck running Depths is pretty difficult to prevent losing from. Especially Turbo Depths and Dark Maverick are difficult to combat. Plus that both cards are solid in a lot of other matchups aswell.


Nice list! I gave it a try and it has been impressive, those SG main deck helped in many unfavorable MUs...

A thought: what about a Kessig Wolf Run MD? with a lot of mana it might be usefull for a "single" winning attack.

a question I couldn't find an answer: what is the purpose of the Vraska? is it there for the ultimate only?

thanks for sharing!

[Bobmans]

Nice list! I gave it a try and it has been impressive, those SG main deck helped in many unfavorable MUs...

A thought: what about a Kessig Wolf Run MD? with a lot of mana it might be usefull for a "single" winning attack.

a question I couldn't find an answer: what is the purpose of the Vraska? is it there for the ultimate only?

thanks for sharing!
Thnx, glad you like it. Slaughter Games is awesome. It justs wrecks a number of MU's (if your able to fire it of).

Some people love Kessig Wolf Run, i have tried the card in the past and it seemed like a win more. Next to this it often just clogged in my hand or was just a mana land and it ability was not the effect i was looking for. I find both Volrath's Stronghold and Phyrexian Tower having more value to the deck. Both cards synergies well with the decks main strategy. On one hand it wants to ramp saccing Veteran Explorer enabling really sic plays T2 or later. Stronghold is really good in the grindy/attrition game. On top of they complement each other when you have both in play.

Vraska the Unseen is a house. I must honestly say that i value her more in this deck then Liliana of the Veil. While 5 mana is a lot it is perfectly doable in this list. Plus most games tend to go long. Having a PW that puts on a clock is really nice. The nice thing about Vraska is the psychological impact on the board. If you + her she basicly has deathtouch and her ultimate just takes 2 turns to reach. Will your opponent try to stop her or just attack you to try and race you before she is relevant? Thats just mind games man. It would surprise you how often she rides you to victory, with or without her ultimate. Sometimes you just want to get rid of Batterskull or some other shit (Emrakul could also be that). Having her after -3 the + ability makes that she must be dealt with and that really complements the strategy. Often you will start to gain advatage during mid or lategame and then she helps to reach critical mass. PFire starts to loop, zenith fetches bigger creatures and top keeps floating answers to threats that can show up. Vraska has surprised both me and my opponents often. Yesterday for example i played vs Patriot. G1 he has the advantage, but i was able to stabilize at 7 life and drop her. He only has a Stoneforge Mystic left, while i Therapied a bunch of cards. He decides to race my while i +1 her, not seeing any reason to -3 the SFM. I decayed the SFM when i hit 5 lifepoints. The turn i could Ultimate her i cast a Therapy and naming Stifle. Hit, he casted a TNN the turn before and he untapped as his only out was a Lightning Bolt. He didnt draw it (or ponder/brainstorm) and i won while he still was at around 19 lifepoints.

[Tom]

May I ask why you guys play Primeval Titan over Grave Titan? I see that it can be tutored for, I just do not get why getting two more lands matters more to you than getting 2 creatures. I am confused since there are no "fancy" lands to get ( Dark Depths + Stage or you name it)...

Please... Teach me :)

[Myelectronicdays]

May I ask why you guys play Primeval Titan over Grave Titan? I see that it can be tutored for, I just do not get why getting two more lands matters more to you than getting 2 creatures. I am confused since there are no "fancy" lands to get ( Dark Depths + Stage or you name it)...

Please... Teach me :)

You can't tutor for grave titan.. but I am going to be honest.. Primetime feels like crap to me.. almost all the time. Most the time he just feels like a 6/6 trample. He only felt semi worthwhile when i could snag a wolfrun with him. then obviously have a ton of land for him to crush in. But I feel like wolfrun is just a winmore lately.. like someone said previously.

One of the biggest reasons I've enjoyed the junk variant so far is not having primey in there... I may burn mine soon.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

It really depends on the build, back when I was playing punishing regularly the utility lands would be a kessig wolfrun, phyrexian tower, volrath's stronghold and all the groves. Primeval almost always got some combination of those. If you aren't playing any utility lands then I think broodmate dragon is a better choice.

[Bobmans]

Primetime just doesn't make the impact on the board as you would wish. Getting more utility lands out can be good, but lately i have been trying out different creatures. Rampaging Baloth is decend. It complements Courser of Kruphix, Veteran Explorer and fetchland. But i am not sold. I also tried Charnelhoard Wurm, when it connects it is awesome. But cmc 7 is pushing it. The problem with Broodmate is that is does not add utility. In the end it is just a double 4/4 flyer. You'd want some double role like all other creatures provide like Thragtusk or Huntmaster. Like i said before Ruric Thar might add some value, but it can conflict with the high amount of non creatures in the deck. Is 6/6 reach vigilance enough to punch thru while punishing the opponent for casting? I had hope for a Red Green something creature out of the last set(s) but nothing shocking was printed. Still in pursuit of the perfect Green (plus red and/or black) 6 drop...

[Arianrhod]

Depends on the version, as is typical of nic fit in general. In Scapewish, Primeval is basically sacrosanct. Myself and a couple of the other older nic fitters tried to cut Primeval from scape a couple of years back, and were immediately and swiftly punished. It doesn't seem like it does a lot, and it frequently comes up in the discussion of where to make room....but it WILL win you games that no other card in the game can win. It always comes through in the end, and it definitely has earned its slot in that version.

Outside of Scape, though, it's definitely lackluster, and I don't generally recommend running it unless you're trying to do something specific with it. The common problem is that the various splash 6s are all better than the mono-G or mono-B options. Sun Titan and Consecrated Sphinx make it really hard to justify running any other 6-drop, imo, when you're in their respective colors. This is if you even choose to run a 6-drop, which is arguably not as mandatory anymore as it used to be due to the proliferation of 5s. I like to have a curve-topper or two at 6, but that's more personal preference than required these days. Red is notably absent from the listing -- the two primary red variants are Scape (which runs Primeval, as mentioned), and Punishing, which frequently doesn't run any 6s at all...or if it does, usually runs something like Broodmate, which isn't mono-R.

[sdematt]

The card's not great, so I cut it. Never looked back.

-Matt

[Bobmans]

Cutting the 6 drop out of this deck (pfire) felt wrong. Not being able to go for something bigger was kind of a anticlimax. I will be keeping a 6 drop in. Or i will again look into a 7 or maybe even 8 drop.

On another note: Back in the days there was this Green Stompy deck running Weatherseed Treefolk. Pretty scary back then. Offcourse is Siege Rhino in (almost) any way better, but in non white version of the deck it might be pretty good. Anyone have experience with this guy? Costs (2)GGG and it's oracle wording says:
"Trample
When Weatherseed Treefolk dies, return it to its owner's hand."

[Myelectronicdays]

Cutting the 6 drop out of this deck (pfire) felt wrong. Not being able to go for something bigger was kind of a anticlimax. I will be keeping a 6 drop in. Or i will again look into a 7 or maybe even 8 drop.

On another note: Back in the days there was this Green Stompy deck running Weatherseed Treefolk. Pretty scary back then. Offcourse is Siege Rhino in (almost) any way better, but in non white version of the deck it might be pretty good. Anyone have experience with this guy? Costs (2)GGG and it's oracle wording says:
"Trample
When Weatherseed Treefolk dies, return it to its owner's hand."

i may give weatherseed treefolk a try today on modo, see how it goes!

[Megadeus]

Does anyone try out Titania at all or has it been dismissed as not good enough already? Seems fine and you can get back dead Groves too if you really need to.

[sdematt]

5 mana for a 5/3 that doesn't die when it comes back to the most common thing that can hit it (STP)? I don't think this will be quite good enough.

Titania is fine, but needs to be built around (well, you need Safekepeer). Problem is, how many fetches are you playing to reliably support her? I've seen her do work with Knight, but is Knight where you want to be right now? Hard to say.

Titania's "sac all my guys and make Juggernauts EOT. Get you?" is poo-poo'd by Miracles instant speed Wrath of God. I still go to sleep wondering if Kamahl, Fist of Krosa is good enough. Think of Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Deed, or in response to Terminus, etc. Seems decent. The issue is this: the 6 drop has to be good to pay 7 mana for it. It has to win you the game. The problem? None of the cards we're going for do that. So, in that case, I'd almost rather have more Thruns, Sigardas, etc. and lower the curve. The inherent problem with the deck is if you do not fire off your 2 card combo, which does NOT win you the game, you have to play the "Land, go" game for turns while your opponent builds up countermagic to your one threat a turn.

The Siege Rhino build tries to get around this by playing a reliable, good threat that can come down Turn 2 with acceleration, but at Turn 3/4 is still very solid, and has effects later in the game due to CITP abilities.

-Matt

[Myelectronicdays]

Yeah I was looking for more options within the pfire build. I played about 6-8 games with the 4 color version.. and having the red seems like a must with all the miracles / omni on mtgo. So figured I would get back down to the pfire build and just work on that for awhile.

[Arianrhod]

Slaughter Games is eminently splashable by any version. Just throw in a Taiga, maybe sideboard a mountain if you're paranoid, and away you go. Alternatively, don't forget that Carpet of Flowers makes colored mana, so you can also generate red for that if you're vs something like miracles (where you side explorers out...at least 3 of them).

Per my memory, Broodmate is the only relevant 6-or-higher bomb in red that is actually playable. Soul of Shandalar is close enough you could test it out if you wanted to; Inferno Titan is not good enough. There may be something new that I'm unaware of, I'm not sure. But as of when I was current on the card pool, Broodmate was the best you were going to get, and it was frequently debated if Broodmate is actually good enough, even.

Titania is a fine card, but imo she's held back by Deathrite's existence -- Deathrite dis-incentivizes you from playing Knight of the Reliquary. As Matt noted, obviously Terminus is also a grade A problem. I'd say it's worth having a copy of Titania in your binder somewhere, but I don't think the meta is currently correct for her.

Here's a checklist of things to look for since the bomb debate is going on:

-) Needs to have a strong etb/leaves-play trigger -OR- be hexproof.
-) Needs to have at least a 4 on the ass if not hexproof.
-) Bonus points if it brings an extra body(ies) to the table, either via recursion or tokens.
-) Bonus points if it has haste.
-) Bonus points if it has lifelink or vigilance.
-) Bonus points if it is GSZ enabled.

Sun Titan clears 4 of these. Sigarda clears 3. Thragtusk clears 3. Rhino clears 3. Amusingly, Consecrated Sphinx only clears 1...but its effect is so ludicrously powerful that we forgive it anyway.

But yeah. Most staples and (nic fit) playables clear 3 or sometimes 4 of these categories. If you're looking for a bomb, try to check as many of these boxes as you can. If it only hits two or fewer boxes, either something else about it needs to be extraordinary (see ConSphinx) and thus it is an exception, or else you just flat out shouldn't be playing it.

[Khamul]

You know, I had the problem of not finding a suitable 6-drop for Punishing Nic Fit, too. After weighing the pros and cons of each usable card carefully, I've came to a conclusion:
Building my list with 1 or 2 Manlands, to get the best value from Prime Time. I'm liking Raging Ravine as Manland, as it gets bigger and nastier every attack and produces R for Pfire. But Treetop Village might be better, especially when playing with Wolf Run.

My reason for building around Prime Time this way is: When I have a big Finisher, I want it to be able to get around all the commonly played Removal. So we have Swords to Plowshares, Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt, Liliana of the Veil and Terminus. And of course, I want it to end the game quickly and easy to be found.

Which leaves me with only one Creature that fulfill all of these:
Primeval Titan
Since I'm "building around" Prime Time (if you call 1 or 2 Slots building around) I find myself playing the control route until I can zenith for him. Then I get Treetop and Wolf Run, and start bashing with Prime Time. If he gets removed, I've still got a sizable body. If Treetop gets removed, I've normally cast any other creature, which is still a threat through Wolf Run. And if everything goes wrong, I already have lots of lands and with 4 Groves, I should have drawn one to slowly PFire my opponent to death.

You could make a point for Sigarda, Host of Herons if you have Karakas, since it's her only way to evade Terminus. But sometimes I'm even happier with her in the Deck so my opponent can't counter her.
Batterskull is in a similar boat as Sigarda. The minus is that it can't be zenithed and it doesn't get behind a Goyf.
AEtherling may be a good Finisher in BUG, btw.
Thragtusk - I don't see it as this inevitable Finisher, as it's easily traded with. Yes, you get lots of value from it, but as it "just" trades with Goyf (leaving a 3/3 behind nonetheless, but this is also easily dealt with).
Bonus Points for Siege Rhino - but it doesn't get past a Goyf reliably and leaves nothing behind versus Swords, Liliana and Terminus.

Broodmate Dragon, Titania, Protector of Argoth and Rampaging Baloths die to Terminus without leaving anything, and Miracles is a really tough Matchup for the non-PFire Nic Fit versions. Even Punishing Nic Fit can be out-controlled by Miracles (as they need fewer lands to do their good things), so the argument "but Miracles is a good Matchup, anyways" doesn't count for me.

Like sdematt, I also try to lower the curve - which brought me to a Stoneforge build instead of a Rhino Build. I'm completely abandoning the idea of a beefy 6-Drop in a Junk version. Jund, on the other hand, with its focus on having more lands, can make perfect use of Prime Time.

[uncletiggy]

A side note for khamal. If you are looking to play a junk equipment list do not fall for the four stoneforge trap. Play two ladys and three equips alongside rhino he'll push in the swords and jittes for counters and they'll usually do a good job controling the board for you in midrage mirrors. Stoneforge is just early ca and sac fodder for tower or therapy not your win condition. Batterskull also has felt like a trap for me I always wanted a sword never the skull.

[Khamul]

Thank you for the input about Stoneforge, uncletiggy :)

I also think that Rhino is a good starting point for pushing through with the equipment, although I just have cut it down to 1 to make room for Garruk Relentless. I've got some Miracles in my area, and those players always tell me that they're not afraid of Siege Rhino at all.

For my Setup, I've already seen that four Stoneforges is too much, so I settled down at three and Jitte + Skull. Feast and Famine in the Board. I've had some really different experience with her - I always find myself searching for Skull or Jitte (Deed is likely to influence the decision) and none of the Swords do it for me. Feast and Famine is in the board for Combo to have repeatable Discard, that's all. If I think about it, I've come to quite a similar list to the recent one that James Hammes used.
I just like Skull because it's a fine thing to push the initial aggro through without even needing the Explorer ramp, that can frequently benefit my opponents, and has a lot of staying power. And if I have the ramp - fine! I'm very comfortable hardcasting it without the need of Stoneforge.

[sdematt]

The way to beat Miracles is walkers and your evasive threats - Thrun and Sigarda. Fires is obviously way good, but not generally run in the same shell.

-Matt

[Bobmans]

Stoneforge JUNK fit of whatever. I have been toying around with a list around the time Rhino got released. Looking at that list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=839241&viewfull=1#post839241) and tweaking it with the comments here this is what i would probably play:


3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas

SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 (combat walker) Elspeth or Garruk
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 4 (white hatebears)

Sun Titan is just so good. Just to have Pernicious Deed lock this would be the sole reason to run JUNK. I really think that this kind of tech boils down to the core of NicFit. That being said, to completement Sun Titan running CMC =< 3 equipment is the thing to do here. Also you could run SoLaS to have a pseudo Recurring Nightmare tricks with Siege Rhino.

[Warden]

@Bobmans: This is the direction I'm debating about playing Nic Fit. I go back and forth on wanting SFM + toys or just a critical mass of bigger dudes. I agree with Sun Titan. He's downright brutal in Junk variants.

@Arianrhod/anyone: I really like that list of criteria for "what creatures can Nic Fit run?" Do you think Wurmcoil, Thragtusk, and Ruric Thar reach MD criteria?

[uncletiggy]

Thragtusk is def maindeckable depending on your build. Especially if your in jund. Wurmcoil is good in bug list that take emphasis off zenith and focus more on reccuring nightmare or deadeye. And ruric I have no clue on honestly he may be winmore. I'm not sure which match ups he improves generally victories versus combo come from discard and bears slowing them down enough to get some random beats in doesnt really matter whats turning sideways the top of the curve is almost completely irrelevant.

@bobmans my list is five cards from yours -1titan -1courser -1pulse -1 witness -1 deed +2 rhino +1 rec sage + 1nightmare +1 g charm

[Ganfar]

I don't think Kessig Wolf Run is overkill. If you play prime time around 6-7 and gets kessig and other land you can attack for at least 11 if the oppenment don't do somrthing ofc. It also makes all your creatures a bigger threat. Even explore is dangers and usally really bad at the end game. I have won matches beacuse I could wolf run a wolf for 6 when the oppent have to kill huntmaster.

[Kanti]

Why has the Scapeshift build fell out of flavor? That's actually the only list I used to play of Nic-Fit, and I absolutely loved it. Winning through hardcast Primetimes or just randomly comboing people out with Scapeshift, while allowing me to run old nostalgic cards like Wood Elves. Decks I used to build at the kitchen table with my buds (we had a box of 12,000 cards from Alpha onwards and would just make casual decks and have giant 8v8's. Probably some of the most fun I've ever had in Magic) used to always run green mana guys, Wood Elves being my premier three-drop most of the time.

[Arianrhod]

@Bobmans: This is the direction I'm debating about playing Nic Fit. I go back and forth on wanting SFM + toys or just a critical mass of bigger dudes. I agree with Sun Titan. He's downright brutal in Junk variants.

@Arianrhod/anyone: I really like that list of criteria for "what creatures can Nic Fit run?" Do you think Wurmcoil, Thragtusk, and Ruric Thar reach MD criteria?

Well, let's run it through.

-) Needs to have a strong etb/leaves-play trigger -OR- be hexproof.
-) Needs to have at least a 4 on the ass if not hexproof.
-) Bonus points if it brings an extra body(ies) to the table, either via recursion or tokens.
-) Bonus points if it has haste.
-) Bonus points if it has lifelink or vigilance.
-) Bonus points if it is GSZ enabled.

Thragtusk I already did.

Wurmcoil passes 2, 3, and 5.
Ruric Thar passes 2, 5, and 6.

I consider creatures passing three categories to be playable. At that point it comes down to choosing what creatures you want to run for your specific list. Bear in mind that Ruric's ability can hurt us as well as the opponent.

@Kanti: I'm sure plenty of people are still playing it. Keep in mind that the thread cycles between versions frequently depending on what versions the more vocal posters are currently working on. Just because nobody is talking about it does not mean that it's out of favor :)

[Gruby]

I like Ruric in my Pfire! He's mostly like a "double rhino" against decks with white.
Red decks usually needs two spells to deal with him.
Black and blue needs one spell but... how many bounce opp could draw? TEAM can Snuff him but 10 life hurts, he's abow dismember.
And palyed at 3-4 turn against combos often gives us at least turn and virtualy 12 damage. That gives 7-9 cards from Ad nauseam untill draw removal.

Hoveawer he's mostly weak against tribals so it's small drawback to play just after deed!

It's always depending on Your playstyle ;)

EDIT: And he is zenithable!

[Kanti]

Arian, would you post a recent decklist of it please? Last I see is one from 2013, which in all likelyhood is probably still pretty good as Scapeshift is more combo, and linear decklists don't always change all that much. Can someone shed some light on the 3 DRS/3 Vet split? Would this be better for Scapeshift, or do I want more Vets to get more lands?

Also is Slaughter Games in the main really needed? Seems a bit more of an sb card to me. Here's a list off the top of my head, tell what you guys think;

24
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badlands
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Dryad Arbor

13
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster of Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragturk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicous Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Scapeshift

15
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Thoughtsieze
1 Duress
1 Massacre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstorm Pulse
1 Slaughter Games
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
2 ???

[Bobmans]

Arian, would you post a recent decklist of it please? Last I see is one from 2013, which in all likelyhood is probably still pretty good as Scapeshift is more combo, and linear decklists don't always change all that much.

Also is Slaughter Games in the main really needed? Seems a bit more of an sb card to me.

There some posts about Scape not to long ago in this thread.

Back to Punishing Fires:

Slaughter Games maindeck improves MU against Both Storm as Show and Tell based decks. Plus that while Miracles is weak against the card it is not bad against any MU. But it is a meta call. I wouldn't do that if your meta is infested with fair.dec

I recently played with Ruric Thar in the 6 drop slot. I was able to resolve it once vs DnT. And at the time i casted it (thru GSZ) i would have been able to block a Flickerwhisp with both Jitte (0 counters) as SoLaS, but he topped a SoFaI. My only out was a PDeeds (which was revealed on top with Courser after i shuffled from the GSZ) and i was @ 6 life with no sacrifice outlet for Ruric.....
The other games i played was ANT 4-1 record in 2 matches (2-0 / 2-1, different opponents). All of the games where decided before i was able to cast Ruric Thar. In all the MU's the combination of discard, extraction and Slaughter Games where what won me the games. Where the latter sealed it. You basicly win if your able to stall the game until you reach the point to cast Slaughter Games. Thragtusk closed the games fast to. Gaining 5 life vs storm is a thing and a 5 beater is nothing to sneeze at. DRS and Scooze are miracle workers here to.
The other matches i played with Ruric was Reanimator and Necrotic Ooze combo. 1-2 loss vs Reanimate. G1 t1 on the play he goes petal, land, entomb, reanimate, GBeez, sjees, scoop.
G2 i won thru therapy/veteran into GSZ Scooze and with some solid backup on hand + liliana. G3 i had T1 GSZ, he went t2 GBeez. On my T2 i played PNeedle naming GBeez. He activated 2 times in respons. He didnt draw counters, but he was able to outrace my T3 Liliana and followon REB on Sphinx with a total of 4 monsters...
Vs Oozing i played 0-2. He had magical Christmas going T1 combo and T2 combo... If your meta is infested with Oops, TinFins and this kind of stuff i would suggest adding 1-2 Surgical Extraction to at least have some interaction...

So conclusion for Ruric (for now), while it would have sealed the games against combo it is to slow (nothing new here) and vs non-combo i preferred to have Broodmate Dragon instead (well at least in that specific situation). I still would like to find out how Ruric goes vs Delver, Stoneblade and Miracles.

Kessig Wolf Run + Treetop Village + Primeval Titan. Versus fair.dec: At first glance it looks solid, but why do i want more beaters when i already have beaters? The thing i want is utility. PrimeTime could deliver utility in the form of fetching more Groves/Red mana, or the Two Towers, but often at that point i already have 6-7 lands. What i want to add to the deck is utility to achieve full board control. A Kessig Wolf Run to have 8/4 Thrun with Trample that wins the game when a 4/4 Thrun cannot is not what i am trying to achieve with the deck. The real question for me is: why is a 4/4 Thrun not winning the game and how do i solve that situation?

Volrath's Stronghold can keep you in the game while recurring stuff like DRS, Thragtusk or Eternal Witness, which eventually leads to a board state where your opponent can't possibly win from. We could replace Phyrexian Tower for Treetop Village. While i can see Treetop function in the deck, the thing that sometimes is relevant vs combo is Phyrexian Tower. Doing the ultimate T1 Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize/REB, into T2 Tower, Veteran Explorer, Slaughter Games happens.

[Khamul]

Kessig Wolf Run + Treetop Village + Primeval Titan. Versus fair.dec: At first glance it looks solid, but why do i want more beaters when i already have beaters? The thing i want is utility. PrimeTime could deliver utility in the form of fetching more Groves/Red mana, or the Two Towers, but often at that point i already have 6-7 lands. What i want to add to the deck is utility to achieve full board control. A Kessig Wolf Run to have 8/4 Thrun with Trample that wins the game when a 4/4 Thrun cannot is not what i am trying to achieve with the deck. The real question for me is: why is a 4/4 Thrun not winning the game and how do i solve that situation?

Volrath's Stronghold can keep you in the game while recurring stuff like DRS, Thragtusk or Eternal Witness, which eventually leads to a board state where your opponent can't possibly win from. We could replace Phyrexian Tower for Treetop Village. While i can see Treetop function in the deck, the thing that sometimes is relevant vs combo is Phyrexian Tower. Doing the ultimate T1 Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize/REB, into T2 Tower, Veteran Explorer, Slaughter Games happens.

For why I want more beaters: To have redundancy with them while not having to rely on my Graveyard. I find RiP/Leyline of the Void being boarded against me too often with PFire Nic Fit to rely on my yard for having recurring threats. Punishing Nic Fit is arguably the best version to run Stronghold in, that's true, but it's also the version against which people ar most likely to board in their Grave Hate. At least there's the Fire to stop those annoying Deathrites from messing around with the Stronghold's plans.

I see your arguments about just using the Two Towers, maybe it's just my meta being different for having much more grave hate.
For the reason to have those good starts against Combo you mentioned, I would never even dare to cut Phyrexian Tower. Treetop is in the slot of the 7th basic land, not in the slot of the Tower.
It's just the Stronghold that I don't see as the most reliable thing in the world, that's why I personally like Wolf Run over it. It's not dependent on having a yard, it just beefs up a creature.

A small sidenote: In an earlier Version I played of Punishing Nic Fit (and wouldn't recommend anymore, as it was a honest mistake) I found myself killing enemies with Dryad Arbor + Wolf Run frequently, as it manages to catch the opponents off-guard quite often and is immune against Decay. But as my experience with Arbor in Nic Fit wet, I don't like it in this Deck anymore. Arbor was simply the first step in the experiment if Manlands + Wolf Run was a good enough plan to give Prime Time the "Boom!" effect I wanted him to have.

[Tom]

As far as creatures that 2-for-1 the Opponents are concerned, has Voice of Resurgence been considered?

Also, I can only emphasis how much I like Grave Titan (I have tested the GBW and the 4-Color Version). I also run Baneslayer Angel, which every time I could find and resolve it, has been great.

Since I am not the most experienced pilot of the deck (at all actually), I cannot figure out if i want PWs and if so, which ones (Lili? Elspeth? Garruk?)

I end up losing a fair amount of games versus blue decks.

So far, I avoided Phyrexian Tower.

[bryanzoll]

For anyone that is looking for an updated ScapeWish build:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Green Suns Zenith
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
1 Scapeshift
1 Diabloic Edict

3 Abrupt Decay

4 Senseis Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deeds

4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badland
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Verdant Catacomb
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
1 Reanimate
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Ruination (I have lots of 12post in my meta)
3 Slaughter Games
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Flex Spots (EDIT: I usually do 1 Mealstrom Pulse and 1 Innocent Blood)

[sdematt]

After some "rigorous" testing on Cockatrice, I think Jund with Fires has to be on its own, and Junk CAN splash red. I think the level of greed to have P. Fires and white cards strains the manabase just a bit too far.

I think two Taigas is an easy solution to fixing the problems. Fires isn't REALLY needed in the Junk build as I've found in testing, so why bother? I think Jund Fit or Jund would be an excellent choice right now, since Slaughter Games is a real piece of tech.

I'm currently going to test:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Siege Rhino
1 Scavenging Ooze
13

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
11

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
15

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Badlands (or Taiga, haven't tested enough)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
22

//Board

2 Slaughter Games
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke

The list eschews the normal Surgical Extraction slots, but I think graveyard decks aren't the best right now. I think Miracles and Omni are the top dogs, with various Blade and Delver decks fighting for second place. I think Combo is similarly positioned, but it has to compete with two VERY heavy counter decks. I think this sideboard allows you to combo Omni and Miracles VERY heavily (I mean, +2 Choke, +2 Teeg, +3 REB, +2 SG, +2 Grip against Miracles seems tough to beat, and similarly for OmniTell).

This is what I'll be testing going into Prague Eternal. I've got a BBE Jund list that is similarly equipped with REB, Choke, and such, as well as a Junk Blade list that I'm tinkering with.

-Matt

[Dzogchen]

I was poking around on Gatherer and I saw this guy:

Elderwood Scion
3GW
Creature — Elemental
Trample, lifelink
Spells you cast that target Elderwood Scion cost 2 less to cast.
Spells your opponents cast that target Elderwood Scion cost 2 more to cast.
Image for reference (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=270725&type=card)

What do our junk players think about this? I know its SORTA like Rhino, and I often use Rhino to gain life in matches where life matters, but without something like Recurring Nightmare, it happens only once. Perhaps something with consistent lifelink would be good? The new Dromoka is sorta like that too. Thoughts?

[Ralf]

I was poking around on Gatherer and I saw this guy:

Elderwood Scion
3GW
Creature — Elemental
Trample, lifelink
Spells you cast that target Elderwood Scion cost 2 less to cast.
Spells your opponents cast that target Elderwood Scion cost 2 more to cast.
Image for reference (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=270725&type=card)

What do our junk players think about this? I know its SORTA like Rhino, and I often use Rhino to gain life in matches where life matters, but without something like Recurring Nightmare, it happens only once. Perhaps something with consistent lifelink would be good? The new Dromoka is sorta like that too. Thoughts?

Dragonlord Dromoka is IMHO plain better.

[Bobmans]

Dragonlord Dromoka is IMHO plain better.
Even then i guess that having Siege Rhino plus Sigarda should be enough. Depending on your exact build you could choose to go Dragonlord Dromoka or Sun Titan or Primeval Titan. Also Baneslyer Angel seems to be impressive aswell.

[Ralf]

After some "rigorous" testing on Cockatrice, I think Jund with Fires has to be on its own, and Junk CAN splash red. I think the level of greed to have P. Fires and white cards strains the manabase just a bit too far.

-Matt

I came to the same conclusion.
4 color Fit is doable, but you lose a lot of consistency.

Here are my latest Nic Fit lists:

JUNK Fit:


1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
1 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Savannah
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Wall of Blossoms
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares

1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 1 Stain the Mind
SB: 1 Dryad Militant
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Thoughtseize


SB is still under quite a lot of testing, especially against combo decks.
Main deck is pretty set in stone, and I can tell you Dromoka has proven to be a hell of a card.


BUG Fit


1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs

1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Pernicious Deed

1 Dimir Charm
1 Golgari Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cunning Wish
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder

SB: 1 Empty the Pits
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Beast Within
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Crypt Incursion
SB: 1 Hatred
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Consume the Meek
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay


I would not recommend this deck to anyone starting playing Nic Fit. But I think it has a good 50/50 against all the deck to beat. There is no fancy monsters here, just value cards and underrated ones. Yet it has proven to be a real contender any time I went to a local tournament.

Scape Fit


1 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Stomping Ground
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Forest
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Wood Elves
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Abrupt Decay

1 Scapeshift
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Dryad Militant
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy


It's been 3 months since I worked on this list. Titania is a powerhouse but 1 scape MD has yet to prove that it is enough. The deck is less on the combo finish to better fight combo strategies but I'm far from sure that it is the way to go. I invite anyone who wants to play Scape to use a more up-to-date list or a list that has proven any good results in local tournament. The only thing I'm pretty set about is that REB effects are really really poor in this deck (SB).

[Ralf]

Even then i guess that having Siege Rhino plus Sigarda should be enough. Depending on your exact build you could choose to go Dragonlord Dromoka or Sun Titan or Primeval Titan. Also Baneslyer Angel seems to be impressive aswell.

As far as I am concerned, I did a lot (and by a lot I mean TONS) of test with Rhino in a Nic Fit shell.

The card is nice and all. But, and there is a "but", I have always found the card to be lacking in terms of "true" power.
In a control shell such as most Nic Fit list, you want a bomb/or a strong ETB effect. Rhino is not a bomb and its ETB effect is not stong enough in a control shell.
Too many times against any BUG deck I have faced 5/6 or 6/7 Goyf and Rhino was just there to block and die...

If you want to play Rhino, I think you have to build your deck around the say card. A CMC 4 as top of your curve is a good start but you would need to throw in a couple of equipment and play kind of a Junk Blade. This build might be a serious contender but I don't think a Nic Fit shell is looking for a midrange approach.
If I want to play a midrange Nic Fit, I would play a Blade Birthing Pod based deck as the one suggested by Qweerios months ago with which I won a local tournament. But I wouldn't throw in there a Quad Rhino strategy.

Rhino is a very fine card but the more I have played with the more I think its place is in a "Rock" strategy.

[jbone2016]

Went 4-3 in our free local Beta Bayou tournament today. I played junk. I saw at least 2 other nic fitters there, one on BUG, one on scapewish.

Beat Storm in 3. Teeg with Fire and Ice is a house.
Lost to RUG Delver in 2. Got stifled off of 2 explorer triggers
Beat 12 post in 2 somehow. Maindeck Mindcensor was silly.
Lost to Punishing Jund in 3. He had a sick BBE into hymn that made me discard a top and rhino. I then bricked forever on action with a top out.
Beat burn in 2.
Beat monoblack depths in 2.
And lost to elves in 2. I hate that deck.

[Arianrhod]

Went 4-3 in our free local Beta Bayou tournament today. I played junk. I saw at least 2 other nic fitters there, one on BUG, one on scapewish.

Beat Storm in 3. Teeg with Fire and Ice is a house.
Lost to RUG Delver in 2. Got stifled off of 2 explorer triggers
Beat 12 post in 2 somehow. Maindeck Mindcensor was silly.
Lost to Punishing Jund in 3. He had a sick BBE into hymn that made me discard a top and rhino. I then bricked forever on action with a top out.
Beat burn in 2.
Beat monoblack depths in 2.
And lost to elves in 2. I hate that deck.

That's really weird. You beat all the bad matchups and lost to the good ones, lol.

[jbone2016]

That's really weird. You beat all the bad matchups and lost to the good ones, lol.

I dunno. I always seem to have trouble with elves for some damn reason.

[uncletiggy]

Been thinking on the bomb for jund topic and im wondering if stormbreath dragon is better in application then on paper. Realistically it dodges most removal in the format and is a hasted evasive beater. It lacks in the etb department but I thought id throw it out there. Feels low impact but it might be a sleeper.

[Arianrhod]

I dunno. I always seem to have trouble with elves for some damn reason.

Yeah, I meant besides elves. Should've clarified that -- it's winnable, but definitely bad.


Been thinking on the bomb for jund topic and im wondering if stormbreath dragon is better in application then on paper. Realistically it dodges most removal in the format and is a hasted evasive beater. It lacks in the etb department but I thought id throw it out there. Feels low impact but it might be a sleeper.

I've run Stormbreath in Scapewish before and not been disappointed with the card. It's very, very good against miracles, which I believe means it's good right now from what little I know of the current metagame.

[Bobmans]

Been thinking on the bomb for jund topic and im wondering if stormbreath dragon is better in application then on paper. Realistically it dodges most removal in the format and is a hasted evasive beater. It lacks in the etb department but I thought id throw it out there. Feels low impact but it might be a sleeper.
Same here, on the regards of bombs in JUND i have ordered 2 Stormbreath Dragon, 1 Grave Titan and 1 Raging Ravine. All in Japanese to match the rest of my deck :-p First i will test 2 Stormbreath Dragon in the place of 1 PrimeTime and 1 something, probably instead of 1 Liliana. Not sure yet. Then i will take it from there and mix some of the numbers. Not only is Stormbreath solid against Miracles, but basicly any deck running white with Swords to Plowshares.
On a side note: i hate to see non green creatures in the deck and wished for something big and that adds utility that synergiezes with the decks main strategy.

[sdematt]

Stormbreath could easily fill the role of Siege Rhino in the Jund builds as your 4-of beater. Realistically, you may want to run 4 just so you see him since you can't GSZ him. Pro white and haste are definitely a plus. Like this maybe?

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Eternal Witness
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vraska the Unseen
1 Golgari Charm
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Stormbreath Dragon

SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Golgari Charm


-Matt

[uncletiggy]

I really want a thragtusk in that last list maybe over a thrun the huntmaster or a stormbreath.

[Bobmans]

I really want a thragtusk in that last list maybe over a thrun the huntmaster or a stormbreath.
Agreed with Thragtusk. The card has pulled me out of the fire pretty often, stabilizing my life points while gaining control of the boardstate. Running a single Huntmaster and a single Thrun should be fine. With non green creatures SDT becomes more important, so perhaps i would like the add a 4th copy. And is running 3 GSZ sufficient? Also Courser of Kruphix goes really well with SDT, speeding up things quite a bit.

[Tom4ik]

I was at the same tourney as Jbone. I went 5-0 into double draw into the top 8. Then get blown out in 3 games by Mud..... stole game 1 off turn 3 Jace. The rest of the top 8 was 2 bug delver, 2 mentor, mono-red sneak, miracles. Would have been more than happpy to play any of those decks.

[Myelectronicdays]

been playing some games with stormbreath in that list on mtgo so far. this morning. hes felt pretty great so far.. although out of 4 games so far I keep getting them in my opening hand.. which is never what i want. One game I had 1 in hand.. and first draw was another... but what can ya do.


I've had to board them out alot but thats only because of the matchups ive been getting.

[Bobmans]

been playing some games with stormbreath in that list on mtgo so far. this morning. hes felt pretty great so far.. although out of 4 games so far I keep getting them in my opening hand.. which is never what i want. One game I had 1 in hand.. and first draw was another... but what can ya do.


I've had to board them out alot but thats only because of the matchups ive been getting.

Did you run 2 or 3? In what MU's did they show up?

Currently i think 2 is the correct number. You really want to see him, but you don't want them to clog up. So for that reason i am considering to go 4 SDT and 3 GSZ so i have more "chance" to have influence on what to draw and what not. Maybe going to 3 GSZ is the wrong call. But i am not sure what to cut. And somehow Liliana hasn't been performing that well. Either she shows up to late or gets removed or doesnt make any impact on the board whereas Vraska has been a freaky bitch when she showed up. I am just not comfortable of removing Liliana maindeck.

[Arianrhod]

2 will be fine. I've run a pair of a nongreen very-good-card multiple times...usually in white variants and usually either Baneslayer or Thune. At 2 Stormbreaths with 3 Tops and sufficient shuffles, you are almost guaranteed to see 1 per medium-short game and to see both over a medium-long game, which is basically what you want. If you run any more, or up the number of Tops, you're going to start clogging on those cards, respectively.

Thragtusk is still correct to run if you're not running gratuitous amounts of rhino and/or Obstinate Baloth.

[Myelectronicdays]

Did you run 2 or 3? In what MU's did they show up?

Currently i think 2 is the correct number. You really want to see him, but you don't want them to clog up. So for that reason i am considering to go 4 SDT and 3 GSZ so i have more "chance" to have influence on what to draw and what not. Maybe going to 3 GSZ is the wrong call. But i am not sure what to cut. And somehow Liliana hasn't been performing that well. Either she shows up to late or gets removed or doesnt make any impact on the board whereas Vraska has been a freaky bitch when she showed up. I am just not comfortable of removing Liliana maindeck.

i agree on the number. going to play some more games at lunch today.. but 3 was too much.. going to go down to 2. I played UR delver twice, which he got boarded out. Played against the rock once (which is rare for me on mtgo to see), in which he was awesome.

Interesting to see that take on liliana.. she eats a bolt, or decay or a force every game.. but i guess it also shows how threatening she can be also. I'd feel wierd taking any out..

[Ralf]

Seriously Stormbreath dragon in a Jund list ?

Pro-white is a thing, but still this card does not provide any card advantage nor any ETB effect.

If you are looking for a huge strike, I would look into Demigod of Revenge, first.

This kind of deck might be able to put a very very "weird" pressure on your opponent.

"I can feel it coming in the air tonight, oh Lord
And I've been waiting for this moment for all my life, Oh Lord
Can you feel it coming in the air tonight, oh Lord, oh Lord"

Revenge Fit by Ralf

1 Mountain
2 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant catacombs
2 Bloodstained mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Badland
3 Taiga

3 Veteran explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
4 Demigod or Revenge

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning bolt

3 Pernicious deed

3 Sensei's divining top

2 Kolaghan's command
4 Cabal therapy
3 Green Sun Zenith


SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Blood moon
SB: 1 Golgari charm
SB: 1 Toxic deluge
SB: 3 Slaughter games
SB: 2 Krosan grip

[Arianrhod]

I was going to note that getting away with Demigod in a world in which Deathrite Shaman is not banned is excessively greedy, but you MIGHT be able to get away with it. If Miracles (and Omni) are big right now, Deathrite is probably in remission overall, and you do have 9 spot removal + deeds and lilianas that can get rid of one. Might actually work, dunno.

Stormbreath is not as bad as you think it is, though. It's kind of a red Thrun. It's immune to StP, it's immune to Decay, it's bigger than Lightning Bolt. It's very effective at dealing with Jaces, even through any stray angel tokens, and it's very real for us to be able to monstrous it. Granted, it doesn't create any card advantage -- but it's very effective at actually killing people.

[Bobmans]

Seriously Stormbreath dragon in a Jund list ?
..
This kind of deck might be able to put a very very "weird" pressure on your opponent.
..
4 Lightning bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command


Playing 4 demands sacrificing flexibility/adaptability against varies MU's aswell. Also Lightning Bolt? That's like running Tarmogoyf in NicFit.
Kolaghan's Command looks interesting, any experience with the card?





i agree on the number. going to play some more games at lunch today.. but 3 was too much.. going to go down to 2. I played UR delver twice, which he got boarded out. Played against the rock once (which is rare for me on mtgo to see), in which he was awesome.

Interesting to see that take on liliana.. she eats a bolt, or decay or a force every game.. but i guess it also shows how threatening she can be also. I'd feel wierd taking any out..

I would def try one against UR Delver. 4/4, blocks delver and eats bolt (not at the same time tho).
To me it is not so much a problem that Liliana gets removed, it is more that if she lives she doesnt add to much value.

[Arianrhod]

Playing 4 demands sacrificing flexibility/adaptability against varies MU's aswell. Also Lightning Bolt? That's like running Tarmogoyf in NicFit.
Kolaghan's Command looks interesting, any experience with the card?

Strongly disagree with the Bolt - Goyf comparison. Lightning Bolt is more analogous to Swords or Path if anything, and both of those cards are very playable. Bolt is a very efficient removal spell that hits exactly when you need it to, but is flexible and can be used as reach if needed as well. This is even more true in a theoretical Demigod shell which would be terrified of Deathrite Shaman. Having an immediate, turn 1 answer to Deathrite coming down is very valuable.

[Ralf]

Strongly disagree with the Bolt - Goyf comparison. Lightning Bolt is more analogous to Swords or Path if anything, and both of those cards are very playable. Bolt is a very efficient removal spell that hits exactly when you need it to, but is flexible and can be used as reach if needed as well. This is even more true in a theoretical Demigod shell which would be terrified of Deathrite Shaman. Having an immediate, turn 1 answer to Deathrite coming down is very valuable.

Arian has perfectly summed it up.

I might have been a bit overwhelmed by "joy" and I guess you could be perfectly fine with only 3 Demigods.
Haste, hits for 5 (killing a Jace in one blow is no Joke at all) and, at least, is not a dead card to Liliana's +1 effect nor to opponent's discard (HTT namely).

Not to mention, its effect triggers on "cast" so f.ck you counterspell & FOW.

Kolaghan's command seems to have been designed for Jund Fit:
3 CMC and every choice can "fit" in our deck, what should we ask for more ?

The sideboard options are also great.
With bolt instead of P.fire, you can now play "blood moon" which answers a lot of our bad matchups.

PS: Ah and I would love seeing an opponent siding gravehate against me to deal with the demigods

[Bobmans]

Arian has perfectly summed it up.

I might have been a bit overwhelmed by "joy" and I guess you could be perfectly fine with only 3 Demigods.
Haste, hits for 5 (killing a Jace in one blow is no Joke at all) and, at least, is not a dead card to Liliana's +1 effect.

Not to mention, its effect triggers on "cast" so f.ck you counterspell & FOW.

Kolaghan's command seems to have been designed for Jund Fit:
3 CMC and every choice can "fit" in our deck, what should we ask for more ?

The sideboard options are also great.
With bolt instead of P.fire, you can now play "blood moon" which answers a lot of our bad matchups.

Still a t2 punishing fire on DRS would do the trick to. I feel that Punishing Fires in NicFit fits better then lighting bolt. While pfire can still be "weaker" vs DRS it is a nightmare vs most creature decks and NicFit ramps into a lot of mana giving pfire more reach when going in for the long game. Offcourser this might not be true when focussing on Demigod making bolt the better choice.

Dont we all get overwhelmed with joy at some point talking about crazy tech in NicFit ;-p

Blood Moon is a strong argument there. Depths/Post based deck can be a nightmare for us.

About Command, good point there. Will try it at some point. Have to much to test currently lol. And i just ordered cards, lol again.

[sdematt]

Maybe Stormbreath is fine, but I still think it's worth trying. I mean, testing will flesh out if it is good enough or not.

[pettdan]

You usually want Blood Moon vs decks that don't care about Punishing Fires, so it's more or less available regardless of build. And in the matchups where you want both, P.Fires isn't that much worse than a Bolt.
On that topic I tried to maindeck Burning Wish in a Punishing Fit list with Ruination in the sideboard and got a lucky 2-0 against a white-green Cloudpost.

[Tom4ik]

So I was reading over the past few pages of the thread. I do not see much BUG list discussion. I am actually really surprised, considering most Nicfit lists run multiple pieces that vary wildly in value depending on matchup, Bstorm (and I am on 2 ponder) better at setting that up than even top. You also get access to Jace, Snap, and Dig. All of which are amazing and probably better than a lot of the GSZ targets you are grabbing. Not to say that it is the only way to go for sure but I am wondering why the lack of interest.

[sdematt]

Uncertain why that is. I feel like someone JUST posted a list with Cunning Wish and such.

-Matt

[Ralf]

So I was reading over the past few pages of the thread. I do not see much BUG list discussion. I am actually really surprised, considering most Nicfit lists run multiple pieces that vary wildly in value depending on matchup, Bstorm (and I am on 2 ponder) better at setting that up than even top. You also get access to Jace, Snap, and Dig. All of which are amazing and probably better than a lot of the GSZ targets you are grabbing. Not to say that it is the only way to go for sure but I am wondering why the lack of interest.

Well, I worked hard on my BUG Wish Fit list but as there is no fancy monster in (and I guess like in yours) it didn't get a lot of discussion.

This should not prevent us from playing it, anyway.

I also did mention that, IMHO, it is certainly at least and maybe even more competitive right now than any other Nic Fit variant.
As much as my list seems to be cute, it has been pretty well play-tested.

I have elected a "Wish" version for several reasons:
- I have played Scape during a long time (thanks to Arian) and have had a lot of success with Burning wish
- I wanted to play underrated cards such as "Empty the Pits" which could be considered as a black "entreat the angels" and the old "Hatred". All these cards cannot be played in multiple in the MD; so they had to be grabbed with Cunning Wish.

If you dig up a bit in the thread you should be able to find some tournament reports.
If you want to share your thoughts about your list or mine, go ahead.

I'll have a look at yours and shall make some comments.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=866754&viewfull=1#post866754

Cheers,

[Bobmans]

As a sidenote: the activity here is awesome.

[pettdan]

It sure is Bobmans! :)

@Ralf: Your list didn't go unnoticed, I immediately ordered a Hatred due to your elegant list but haven't gotten around to play it yet. Having two possible EOT I win wish targets seems awesome.

[Arianrhod]

@Ralf: why no Dig Through Time in that list? I guess you just want to save all of your graveyard for Empty the Pits? Is that enough reason to not run a Dig?

[Myelectronicdays]

I would def try one against UR Delver. 4/4, blocks delver and eats bolt (not at the same time tho).
To me it is not so much a problem that Liliana gets removed, it is more that if she lives she doesnt add to much value.

Yeah wasnt sure if it was just to slow in the deck.. since that deck packs a punch fast.

So i actually played that demigod list at lunch... went 3-0 in tourney practice.. first match barely counted since it was some random awful brew. Then played vs esperblade and maverick.

I never got to recur one one.. since they got plowed! haha, i was like wow figures. But the big haste flyer was good in all matches again. I was still enjoying the 3 vet / 3 drs more though than the 4 - 1 split. DRS was mvp on the esper matchup by a mile..

[Bobmans]

Yeah wasnt sure if it was just to slow in the deck.. since that deck packs a punch fast.

So i actually played that demigod list at lunch... went 3-0 in tourney practice.. first match barely counted since it was some random awful brew. Then played vs esperblade and maverick.

I never got to recur one one.. since they got plowed! haha, i was like wow figures. But the big haste flyer was good in all matches again. I was still enjoying the 3 vet / 3 drs more though than the 4 - 1 split. DRS was mvp on the esper matchup by a mile..

Yeah true, both UR Delver and Burn have a very high velocity. During Treasure Cruise i ran 3/4 Split in Vet/Drs. From start to midgame i was spending in everything to get lifegain on the floor. DRS was the first to catch burn. At least that was one burnspell less on the head. Thragtusk or Huntmaster usually showed up to create a gap. After that it was mostly a win on my side. Courser helped to. Have won more games then lost vs both. Anyway i switched back to 4/1 split because i was spending to much time on durdling with DRS instead of ramping into bombs. Still i think that a 3/3 split is bit akward. I'd rather go for 4/1, 4/2 or 3/4 to maximize on either veteran explorer or drs. Guess thats just preference.

Demigod doing good work huh, the question is, is his exotic recurring ability going to make a difference instead of going for Stormbreath's pro white..

[Myelectronicdays]

well nic fit did good work. I couldn't tell how much of a real impact he had vs stormbreath.. in those games stormbreath would have been better. but I'll play more with it for sure. was a fun list.

that mana cost is the real deal also.. one miser forest on the board hoses casting him.

[Warden]

I tested a Junk-fit list (really just a pile of cards) this past weekend to 3-2-0 results. Not sure how I feel about the deck, and I'll post my list later, but I have some takeaways:
1. Deed is fantastic. 3 for sure.
2. Opposing planeswalkers need an answer. Lost to Ugin and Jace hitting the table ---> Vindicate or Pulse would have worked wonders
3. I tried the SFM plan and ultimately don't like it (SFM -> batterskull was a really strong line all day though)
4. I wanted more than 1x Rec. Sage and 1x Witness
5. Thrun shoulda been in the main, not SB
6. Rhino in the opening hand gives me mixed feelings

[tilzinger]

I tested a Junk-fit list (really just a pile of cards) this past weekend to 3-2-0 results. Not sure how I feel about the deck, and I'll post my list later, but I have some takeaways:
1. Deed is fantastic. 3 for sure.
2. Opposing planeswalkers need an answer. Lost to Ugin and Jace hitting the table ---> Vindicate or Pulse would have worked wonders
3. I tried the SFM plan and ultimately don't like it (SFM -> batterskull was a really strong line all day though)
4. I wanted more than 1x Rec. Sage and 1x Witness
5. Thrun shoulda been in the main, not SB
6. Rhino in the opening hand gives me mixed feelings

What were you finding you wanted most from more Eternal Witnesses?

Also, why Reclamation Sage over Qasali Pridemage?

[sdematt]

One colour.

[Arianrhod]

One colour.

Also synergizes a little better with Therapy, Tower, Intent/Sidisi, etc, because it leaves a body behind.

I'm actually playing in a local tonight. I'll have some thoughts and a list upon my return. It's basically Thune splashing Slaughter Games in the sideboard.

[sdematt]

Im on junk plus games as well. Sorry for brevity, typign this while I sit at the beach.

[Ralf]

@Arian: I'll make a proper BUG analysis of my choices (card by card) tomorrow if I have enough time.

DTT was obviously tested as a 1-of. The card has some insane raw power but finally I found it unecessary.
4 ponder and 4 brainstorm are enough in terms of card selection and ensure that you get to trade 1vs1 until your deck goes over the top.

Also I tried at all cost to avoid double color requirement in a deck where ramping is your primary key of success and where I have stretched the mana base like a tempo deck.

At last as you mentioned, it tends to delay quite a bit "empty the pit".

It tooks me 5 months (since last christmas) and hundreds of games with my small team to get a 75 running.

The hardest MU excluding manlands based decks to fix was D&T. Properly played, D&T is a nightmare. We barely manage to get a 50/50 thanks to Ooze which was not originally included.

All in all the deck is really enjoyable to play for any decent nic fit & control pilot. Decision trees are among the hardest to make but the higher the risks the higher the reward.

If you wanna make your opponent tilt (like I did to the MUD player last time), you'll have some great great fun.

Any feedbacks / questions would be much appreciated as I think the deck is now mature enough. Obviously, some sideboard choices are highly meta dependant and fairly debatable.

Thanks for reading.

[Ralf]

that mana cost is the real deal also.. one miser forest on the board hoses casting him.

Yes. THAT mana damn cost. Urborg might be our new best friend. The mana base would have to be reworked a bit to include a pair of urborg as I believe one would not be enough.

Anyway, it will take more than a few games to determine if the Demigod idea is a good one or not.
3 or 4 will also have to be settled but in a test period you want to max it out to draw any meaningful conclusion.

I'm glad some of you jumped in !!! The more, the merrier.

[Arianrhod]

Didn't get to play much -- low turnout didn't help, and I had to attempt to tolerate a particularly odious person whom I despise that I was unaware would be at the store tonight, so I actually said fuck it and left early before causing a scene. Basically only had one match vs DnT, in which I got him to 1 before he stabilized g1, and then g2 I never drew a second G/B source for my hand of Golgari Charm, Decay, double Deed. Like a turn 6 Thalia saved his ass game one when he didn't realize it would actually do anything -- but it locked up my mana enough that I couldn't loop Rhino to kill on the spot, which would've been game.

Initial impression for the first time playing it since like October -- yeah, Rhino is real. The amount of pressure Rhino generates on its own without any bullshit backing it up (elspeths, equips, exalted, etc) is nuts. The Thune package felt as clunky as ever...arguably more so now that Sidisi is basically mandatory as yet another 5-drop. Unfortunately I feel as compelled to include a combo finish as ever, because regardless of durdle or clunk, I really do believe that nic fit as a whole is better when there's a combo in it.

Note that I will not defend my list. In fact, I don't even feel like typing it up. It was basically garbage. The sideboard was sweet, though:

3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Nether Void
2 Golgari Charm
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Garruk Relentless

The two planeswalkers were my usual two "fair.dec over the top" slots. I mostly went with them because I originally wanted 2 copies of each maindeck but had to cut them for space, and I was running short on time to come up with anything better. There's definitely better candidates for these slots, but assuming that they continue to be used as fair.dec toppers, I will say that I feel pretty confidant in this sideboard. It's prepared for basically anything -- the usual candidates still slip through the cracks, but I've long since given up hope of ever having a good matchup vs MUD, 12post, etc.

Also, the interaction between Slaughter Games and Nether Void rustles my jimmies. I can't wait to do that to some asshole combo player.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

In other news, telegraphed hatred kills with Ralf's cunning wish deck are just offensive.

Ralf, what other instants were you considering for the board? So far during the few matches I've played I've only replaced the crypt incursion with a ravenous trap for a little more versatility, I've also just grown fond of the card after playing vintage online for a while. Dig through time is something else I want to test out but I have a feeling it's just worse then grabbing a high impact spell like empty or hatred.

[Bobmans]

I really do believe that nic fit as a whole is better when there's a combo in it.

Agreed, having that inevitable win (now) is missing in both Rhino as PFire builds.
Something just holds me back to start playing Scape.



Also, the interaction between Slaughter Games and Nether Void rustles my jimmies. I can't wait to do that to some asshole combo player.

[emoji23]

[Ralf]

In other news, telegraphed hatred kills with Ralf's cunning wish deck are just offensive.

Ralf, what other instants were you considering for the board? So far during the few matches I've played I've only replaced the crypt incursion with a ravenous trap for a little more versatility, I've also just grown fond of the card after playing vintage online for a while. Dig through time is something else I want to test out but I have a feeling it's just worse then grabbing a high impact spell like empty or hatred.

I apology for the incoming wall of text. Here is a not so quick sum up so that anyone could jump in.

Deck history:

Since the print of "Empty the Pit" I have been working on a list to make that game ending spell "legacy playable".

1) I mentioned it the first time in this thread here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=851242&viewfull=1#post851242

2) Then, after a good testing period:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=854002&viewfull=1#post854002

3) Here is the first iteration including Cunning Wishes:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=856127&viewfull=1#post856127

4) Here is the first time I have included "Hatred" as a faster win condition against decks where you are playing the "aggro" role:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=859699&viewfull=1#post859699

This list is a very good starting point as I spent the whole Christmas holidays playing against my team and tuning the deck.

5) The first list I played in a local tournament:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=866754&viewfull=1#post866754

Here is a list of SB instant spells that have been used/dismissed/put aside depending on your meta:

- Pact of Negation
- Ravenous Trap
- Slaughter Pact
- Meditate
- Krosan grip

The list might be not comprehensive at all, but at some points, those cards were heavily tested.

I used to be playing "ravenous trap" as another gravehate spell but with the recent inclusion of Scavenging Ooze, the card no longer feels necessary. Too much redundancy will get you. Yet, it is a total blowout in some MU (Dredge / Storm namely). As a matter of fact, I would not dismiss "crypt incursion" too hastily. Although the card can seem "poor" at first sight, I found it has a much broader application than the say "ravenous trap".
I've won games with Crypt incursion against dredge like I would have with ravenous trap. But I've also managed to get very far ahead against Aggro or Tempo decks where no other card could have saved my butt. Gaining 15 life points on average is no joke. It is even better in a control shell buying you more turns to crawl back into a dominant board position.

DTT was never considered as a sideboard option. Actually if you look at the very first lists, during testing, it took the 2nd Jace place and finally was completely cut from the 75.
As aforementioned, you already have plenty card selections and I tend to not fall into the "cantrips into cantrips into cantrips" mind tricks.

We went back & forth wondering with my team whether the deck really needs a big draw spell as a wish target. We believe it does not, even more when we had to reduce the number of main deck wishes down from 4 to 3. I might be proven wrong here, that is the main point of sharing the list in this thread.

Furthermore, we stuck to the initial plan: play as many spells as possible that grow the graveyard without letting know your opponent you are advancing your game to the point you will be able to instantly kill him.
Therefore a few cards got the axe:
1) Sensei's divining top is a huge asset but it does not grow the grave. As the mana base was stretched to the point it is now, sensei was slowing us down (as also the game's path). Furthermore, sensei was also adding an unnecessary heavy branch to a decision tree already complex. It got the axe.
2) Once Sensei was gone preventing the deck from being played out of the top of your library, Liliana +1 effect was more a liability in a reactive deck than anything else. She got the axe.
3) At some point the creature package was including one or a pair of Vendilion Clique. This might be the creature I miss the most but the UU cost made it very difficult to include when you first goal is to reach UBG as fast as possible.
4) The weakest cards in the deck are the charms. But when they are strong, they are really really good. Often times they have replaced the wish I safely keep for later on during the game because of their unique effect. Often times, they are reshuffled with a BS into the library...

By no mean this list should be considered as a "set in stone" 75. If I had to set some core cards in stone it would definitely be:
- Cabal Therapy
- Veteran
- Baleful strix
- Glen Elendra Archmage
- Abrupt decays & sweepers (PD, Toxic, etc)
- Blue cantrips (BS & Ponders)

Therefore, I invite anyone interested in such a shell to test it and draw its own conclusion and share it.

It is completely "off the radar" and you will get a lot of wins just because your opponent is not ready to face such a "weird" Nic Fit build.
Anyway, you will win many games just through the "good old aggro route" punching faces with GLE, Vet & Ooze. Otherwise, you'll get to punch some faces out of nowhere.

More to come later (especially a SB card full explanation).

Thanks for having reached so far !

[Tom4ik]

Here is the 75 that I went 5-0-2 with at the 80 man on sunday. I have stayed with the main deck for a few weeks now but the SB gets changed up.

2 island
2 swamp
2 forest
2 bayou
2 underground sea
2 creeping tarpit
1 tropical island
2 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs

4 veteran explorer
2 snapcaster mage
2 baleful strix
2 tasigur, the golden fang
2 thragtusk

4 cabal therapy
4 brainstrom
4 force of will
2 dig through time
2 ponder
3 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
3 jace, the mind sculptor
2 liliana, of the veil

SB
3 thoughtsieze
2 surgical extraction
2 negate
1 dispel
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 scavenging ooze
1 thrun, the last troll
1 maelstrom pulse
2 notion thief


Played against Bant blade, bug delver, goblins, rug delver, mentor miracles (terminus no entreat). Drew my next 2 rounds and then was knocked out of top 8 by post mud.

I know Ralfs deck plays out fairly differently but I have been finding Dig to be amazing. Being able to dig for jace plus deed or some other double bomb pull is too good and even if you don't run it main 1 in the side to turn cunning wishes into actual CA seems good. I tested a 4 wish package but kind of felt that the 3 mana tacked onto answers made it a little slow and that there were times I would want to wish for just some gas but didnt have anything. This was before dig so I actually tried out Fact for a bit. Never ran it in a tourny though. I ended up moving more to a bug control style with vet and therapy to cheat on land count.

I boarded force out a lot. Came out in my first 4 match ups. I still like running it main as the deck is all 2 for 1's that can help get the CA back and protecting Tasigur and Jace is also fine. Makes the combo match-ups a little better pre board. Post board I feel fairly fine against most combo with discard, counters and "lock" pieces in surgical and notion thief.

[Ralf]

Here is the 75 that I went 5-0-2 with at the 80 man on sunday. I have stayed with the main deck for a few weeks now but the SB gets changed up.

2 island
2 swamp
2 forest
2 bayou
2 underground sea
2 creeping tarpit
1 tropical island
2 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs

4 veteran explorer
2 snapcaster mage
2 baleful strix
2 tasigur, the golden fang
2 thragtusk

4 cabal therapy
4 brainstrom
4 force of will
2 dig through time
2 ponder
3 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
3 jace, the mind sculptor
2 liliana, of the veil

SB
3 thoughtsieze
2 surgical extraction
2 negate
1 dispel
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 scavenging ooze
1 thrun, the last troll
1 maelstrom pulse
2 notion thief




It reminds me the time I was playing a heavy Walker Fit list or even the good old Pernicious Jace BUG deck.

Jace + Liliana will always be a good way to close out games.
I played Tasigur in a "nearly miracle" esper list for a while and the card is insane coupled with DTT + Sensei. Once active, you are almost able to choose the card your opponent has to give you back with Tasigur ability.
Did you ever try sensei in your list ?

I can see that I'm not the only stretching his mana base with BUG Fit.

21 lands among which you have 2 Pit (it is a good way to sink your mana). Did you ever experience any problem as your curve is a bit higher than mine ?

I don't know if you ever tried out Glen Elendra Archmage ? I have never been impressed that much by notion thief.

Finally, moving forward what changes would you make to your initial list ?

[Star|Scream]

Tom,

I'm a weekly watcher of the Meadery legacy (and modern.) I love that there are no commentators and we can hear the players. I guess the 80 man tournament was not broadcast? Bummer.

I really like your version of Bug Fit. You eschew all the "cute" stuff and finishers for solid control elements and card advantage. Congrats on your finish.

I can build this deck minus one Jace. Would you suggest an additional lili or a ponder in its place?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Thanks for the huge reply Ralf, lots of good info there and a perfect example of why I love watching this thread.

I do like your points about crypt incursion and I'll definitely keep that in mind. I was considering it's application when under pressure but haven't really had the need for it yet so I could be undervaluing it.

The charms were also exactly what you described, occasional all stars with dimir charm being very impressive and golgari charm doing it's normal thing of saving me from blood moon. If I were to cut one I think it would be replacing the md golgari charm with another deluge. The innocent blood is another main deck card I wasn't the most impressed with and may be changing. Not sure what I would want in it's spot yet though. Part of me just wants the fourth strix.

[Dzogchen]

Hey all, I'm hoping I can get some community feedback on my list. The main 61 has been the exact same for a good while now, and while the sideboard changes around a bit, this is its current form. I was going 2-2 at our events for a long time, then a few 3-1's but I've not yet managed to crack the 4-0 with it. I definitely don't get to run the number of reps with it that many people do so I was wondering if some more of our...veterans...eh..EH?...sigh...could see if there was anything clearly to be improved or if the thing to improve is just my playing. Thanks everyone!

Land (22)
2x Bayou
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
2x Windswept Heath

Enchantment (4)
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Creature (14)
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Qasali Pridemage
4x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Veteran Explorer

Sorcery (10)
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Diabolic Intent
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (7)
3x Abrupt Decay (fixed!)
3x Path to Exile

Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard (15)
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Carpet of Flowers
2x Choke
1x Cranial Extraction
3x Duress
1x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Toxic Deluge

A note about the Duresses in the board over Thoughtseize (and I'm still on the fence about this logic) but it occurred to me that what Nic Fit is really good at, particularly in these colors is removing creature threats, either with Decay, Path, or Deed. The hard matchups came from combo decks and Duress gets the spells that we care about out of their hand anyway. On the other hand, life against those decks doesn't always matter, but it could buy you a little more time. That might be totally wrong, but I'd been trying it out.

[sdematt]

Have you found 5 Abrupt Decay to be enough? I think you should put another one in the board.

-Matt

[Dzogchen]

Have you found 5 Abrupt Decay to be enough? I think you should put another one in the board.

-Matt

Whoops! Typo there for sure. It flip flops from 4 main, to 3 main 1 board. Sorry folks!

[sdematt]

I'm obviously kidding.

How do you find Intent still? I've cut it for a Sylvan Library to test, and so far, Sylvan does work.

-Matt

[Dzogchen]

I'm obviously kidding.

How do you find Intent still? I've cut it for a Sylvan Library to test, and so far, Sylvan does work.

-Matt

Well, honestly Intent hasn't come up often, but when it has its been really good, in some cases pulling me out of nearly unwinnable games. If I was going to run a one-of between the two, I figured at least one gets me anything I want it to (obviously as long as I fulfill the sac clause). I almost considered running a Dryad Arbor to enable 'GSZ for 0, Intent, get something else' plays. That being said, I'm still not 100% on it.