[Deck] Death and Taxes

[BearsandSquires]

For now this card does not seem worth running in dnt. It just helps in a lot of already good match ups and the elves match up would still probably be bad. It also does nothing against ur delver, which is probably the most popular deck in legacy right now.

[H]

Has anyone done more testing with the Land Tax build?

It seems when I lose with this deck, it's most often because I just don't draw enough lands. I hate Horizon Canopy too, in the last event it lost me two games costing me two rounds versus UR because it wasn't a Plains. Even worse, one of those was in the top 8 for a Lotus.

I'd think 2 Land Tax is probably the maximum though. Has anyone had any other results?

[jrw1985]

So, do people think Containment Priest is strictly a sideboard option? Its clearly potent against Elves, Reanimator, SnS, and Dredge. Against any fair deck with creatures it teams up with Flickerwisp as hard removal. Against Miracles its a flash threat that can be Cavern'ed to be uncounterable. Its also simply an x/2 in a format full of Forked Bolts and Young Pyromancer tokens. Just some thoughts, card is very interesting.
That's a sick interaction with Flickerwisp. Too bad Priest stops you from Vialing in Flickerwisp. :(

[Phelix]

still doesnt affect tokens.

[Barbed Blightning]

For now this card does not seem worth running in dnt. It just helps in a lot of already good match ups and the elves match up would still probably be bad. It also does nothing against ur delver, which is probably the most popular deck in legacy right now.

This is a pretty lazy argument. I also don't think you understand how important Green sun's Zenith and Natural Order are to Elves.



Anyway, this is my 75 for the GP, barring any minor tweaks:


11x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls

4x AEther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Flickerwisp
3x Serra Avenger
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Restoration Angel


SIDEBOARD
2x Containment Priest
2x Council's Judgment
2x Rest in Peace
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Gut Shot
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Mirran Crusader
1x Enlightened Tutor


The only thing I hate is the loss of Mangara, but there's too much Delver right now to really justify him, I think.

If anyone has comments/questions, feel free to chime in.

[ironclad8690]

Forgive me if this doesn't belong here, but a very interesting deck top 16'd SCG Columbus. It is very much so in the Twilight Zone between Maverick and Death and Taxes:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
3 Judge's Familiar
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

2 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of War and Peace
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Choke
1 Banishing Light
1 Dismember
1 Path to Exile
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist

[Barbed Blightning]

Forgive me if this doesn't belong here, but a very interesting deck top 16'd SCG Columbus. It is very much so in the Twilight Zone between Maverick and Death and Taxes:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
3 Judge's Familiar
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

2 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of War and Peace
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Choke
1 Banishing Light
1 Dismember
1 Path to Exile
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Bizzare... But cool

[ironclad8690]

I know there were rumblings of a green splash recently, and now that I take a second look at this deck I think it is more Death and Taxes with a green splash than it is Maverick (no Knight etc).

[Pans-Advocate]

I really wonder how good Containment Priest was for him all day. I'm still definitely not sold on the card yet.

One thing I kin of like is that every single equip he's running (all 4!) gain life. This seems pretty important with a 4x Canopy maindeck.

[Barook]

The list is now fixed. (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76026)

It's still weird that he didn't run a SoFaI.

[Beeeeebs]

For those of you who are running COP red in your sideboards I was curious if you brought it in during any match ups besides burn. For example does it come in against UR Delver?

[H]

For those of you who are running COP red in your sideboards I was curious if you brought it in during any match ups besides burn. For example does it come in against UR Delver?

I brought it in verses UR Delver. In a recent tournament, one match versus them I never drew it. In the second, I drew it in a game where I was stuck on three lands and had a Thalia in play. Of course, had I drawn in in the third game where I had 9 lands in play I would have won very easily.

I need to try it more to see if it's really worth it, or if I should just go for all Firewalkers instead. My problem with only Firewalker is that Price of Progress can still wreck you pretty easily.

[Beeeeebs]

I brought it in verses UR Delver. In a recent tournament, one match versus them I never drew it. In the second, I drew it in a game where I was stuck on three lands and had a Thalia in play. Of course, had I drawn in in the third game where I had 9 lands in play I would have won very easily.

I need to try it more to see if it's really worth it, or if I should just go for all Firewalkers instead. My problem with only Firewalker is that Price of Progress can still wreck you pretty easily.

Thank you, I am curious because I do not personally like Firewalker or any of the creature options fo UR Delver and I am not sure if the COP affects their game plan enough to come in. I'd be very interested to know if one COP and one E Tutor swings the match at all.

[H]

Thank you, I am curious because I do not personally like Firewalker or any of the creature options fo UR Delver and I am not sure if the COP affects their game plan enough to come in. I'd be very interested to know if one COP and one E Tutor swings the match at all.

I had 1 Firewalker and 1 COP with 1 Tutor. It was plagued by muligans all day, so again, variance makes it hard to draw a firm conclusion at this point. If I ran D&T at the GP or any other large event in the near future, I would probably run 2 Firewalkers and 1 COP with 1 Tutor as well. At least, until I can test more and see if there is some other configuration I want to run. My problem with Firewalker is that sometimes it just comes too late. COP is gas in the late game.

[Finn]

I have read a few people mention recently how much they have liked Circle of Protection:Red. I gotta say that my last experience with that card is very long ago. But the consensus back then, and what I myself experienced, was that having to keep mana open - and not just one - was a real problem. Games against Burn and UR Delver don't tend to go long, so the mana you spend to cast the CoP and then the mana kept open is like a huge tax on your ability to maneuver. I don't know how players are having positive experiences, and I would love to hear about them.

As a red player on the other side, I recall winning through a CoP by using my burn to keep their creatures down until the white player left too few lands open for some reason. Then I would unload Lightning Bolt to force him to tap his last land, then Price of Progress, Price of Progress, Fireblast, game!..or something like that. These spells are instants too. That means that the white player has still more headwinds. As the burn player, you can spend your mana at the end of your opponent's turn to force CoP activations. Then untap to go to town. D+T on the other hand likes to spend its mana on its own main phase (Port is terrible here), so it loses the battle of maneuverability.

Kor Firewalker really feels like a gem here. How has it been bad exactly? If you want something to tutor for, I would expect Warmth to serve you better.

[laststepdown]

The list is now fixed. (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76026)

It's still weird that he didn't run a SoFaI.

We drove about 7.5 hours from st. louis to play. I sold cards instead. We talked about it in the car, and i told him vs a meta full of bolts/plows/cruises, plus running spirit of the labyrinth, SoFaI might be worse off than a SoWaP. I was right, multiple opponents couldn't resolve cruises because it would lethal them.


Edit: also we wanted 4 containment priests in the list but couldn't get our hands on all of them. last round he fought vs dredge with containment priest. considering this is one of my main testing partners, and i've been playing dredge about a decade now, he knew exactly what to do. the matchup was just laughable. Blake's not on the source, sorry. The deck is literally D+T splashing for Choke and Teeg. I hope this helps.

[H]

Kor Firewalker really feels like a gem here. How has it been bad exactly? If you want something to tutor for, I would expect Warmth to serve you better.

While I can't speak from anywhere near the amount of experience that can offer incontrovertible proof of anything (except perhaps of my meager skill at Magic) I noticed the following in the few games I played versus UR: games ran long, Firewalker when drawn late was not spectacular, COP drawn early was terrible.

Now, how often will all these things happen? I don't know, I need to test a great deal more to say exactly. You point about COP is 100% correct, if the Burn player gets time to set up, he or she can overwhelm your mana. Then again, if the Burn player gets time to set up, he or she can overwhelm a Firewalker as well. I think both have some very critical flaws, which is why I felt like I wanted both effects. If they nut draw you and kill you quickly, there is a fair chance that neither Firewalker or COP would save you, which is why I focused my thinking on how to grind out games versus them.

I am not trying to say that Firewalker is bad, in fact, I was advocating adding a second to my own list. I am not (yet) convinced that COP is bad. In all the games I've played versus UR, they tend to empty their hands quickly. If we keep pressure on them, they shouldn't have the time needed to go completely over the top of the COP, or at least, that's what I am thinking. Fact is, I don't have enough data to be certain at this point. I've played Warmth in the past and there is a good chance you are right in that it might be a better overall choice (think of having both a Firewalker and Warmth out does make me kind of happy in my pants).

Why I chose COP over Warmth was the grindy games where I wanted to be sure I could win races by nullifying the chance they had of just top decking a Price and melting my face. This is probably because I purposely choose to not play around a Price by not playing lands. I will not hold all my non-basics, besides a useless Wasteland, just because there is the possibility of a Price. This is probably a critical misplay, but I feel like often Price wins the game for them, lands held back or lands played out, because they do run Artifact removal, so leaning to heavily on Vial can be dangerous. Often I make bad choices as to what to play around, so this might be a fundamentally wrong way to approach the matchup. I do know that they often expect decks to stop playing lands in face of the threat. In my mind I want to make them have it every time rather than not play my game.

In a way, COP was part of the reason I was interested in a Land Tax build, in over a year of playing this deck, I still never have enough Plains. This might just be cascading bad ideas, but I want to try it, I think.

[frenadol]

Hey, first time poster here. I lurk around a lot but for some reason never commented in this board! I visit the MTGS DnT thread though.

I tested two Kor Firewalker in the sideboard yesterday against UR Delver and Burn. I can't say they're that good in the UR matchup because the gain life only triggers when a red spell is cast, and they don't even run that many, most of their spells are blue card manipulation/cantrips. Sure the pro red can block their... Swiftspears, and that's it. I'm not saying it doesnt have any effect, but in the UR Delver matchup their usefulness isn't as big and dramatic as to warrant a sideboard slot, and certainly not two. Against URW and Grixis flavors? Even less. Against Burn the card is quite magnificent, comes early and can certainly stabilize the board by himself. I actually like Firewalker more than CoP:Red in the Burn matchup because, as Finn said, having to leave mana open is something you certainly can't afford to do in a game where the early turns determine the outcome of the whole game. CoP:Red also only prevents damage to you, not to your creatures, and sometimes it's more important to keep that Stoneforge Mystic alive so she can drop Batterskull, or that Thalia alive so she can swing with Jitte. But I still run one CoP in my sideboard, because it's tutorable (against Burn) and only requires one slot, so it's very easy to add to a sideboard and kinda does its work, but you certainly can't rely on it.

At the end of the day, the best way to deal with Burn is still the old method of Mom into Thalia into Jitte swing for lots of life. Burn isn't even a particularly hard matchup, but UR Delver certainly can take a series off you if you keep a greedy hand. The MVP of the matchup is still Thalia, followed by Sword to Plowshares. I think the best way to pad that matchup isn't the red hate route, but rather board in more creature removal. They don't pack enough burn spells to win the game alone, and out creatures often force the opponent to waste bolts into them. The problem is that turn one Delver that flips and starts hitting for 3 extremely fast. Keep in mind that DnT only packs 4 removal spells in the maindeck and that's certainly not enough for the matchup unless you get the nut draw of 3 StPs in the first 2 or 3 turns, and that isn't going to happen every time. I actually like Sunlance a lot in the matchup, it hits flipped Delvers and Swiftspears and Young Pyromancers, and doesn't force you to pay life like Gut Shot or Dismember does. Also Vial is way more important that it seems, as with a 2 or 3 counter Vial untapped you force them to play more conservatively and it increases your chances of stretching the game until you can stabilize.

In my experience I would still side SoFaI out even when the color protections are very good in the matchup, as the Sword is way too slow and can't come out and equip in turn 4 without a Stoneforge Mystic. The bolt and the extra card are very nice but it doesn't gain you life and it's going to be narrower than Jitte every time so it never gets fetched as a first choice, and in a fast game you want to be as efficient as possible with the free slots in your maindeck. The deck doesn't need many changes against UR, mine are usually -3 Revoker -1 SoFaI -1 Resto -1 Dust Bowl +2 Sunlance +3 SotL +1 CoP:Red. SotL gets bolted immediately but it's still 3 less damage to your face and if it doesn't get bolted it can slow down the game considerably.

[MrShine]

Would it not be worth considering running an extra Jitte? sure, we have tutors, but as Frenadol mentioned, our best plan vs burn is to stick the stick to a stick and just jab until we have enough counters to be happy, so giving ourselves another shot to hit it seems decent. They're probably also planning on removing at least 1 jitte/batterskull over the course of the game so having backup could actually be relevant. Its also obviously insanely good vs UR.

vs UR: I always found extra removal in the SB to be exactly what I needed vs the old UWR and BUG Delver; I was running Path but now UR is running enough basics to make that a bad idea so I guess we're back to Sunlance, although I'm not stoked about it. Removal is good vs Burn too as you pretty much HAVE to get rid of Eidolon or you're just toast.

None of these options seem like Slam Dunks, unfortunately...

[H]

The problem I have with relying upon equipment is that most Red-based decks are sideboarding some number of Smash to Smithereens, or other Artifact removal spell. The reason I like Firewalker and either COP or Warmth is that they really don't have any answers to them. Well, mono-Red would have no answers. I played against someone actually playing Vapor Snag in a UR deck, but that seems really uncommon. There is no way for them to interact with a White enchantment, besides trying to counter it.

What is a little frightening is that some of these UR decks are now playing Electrickery in the board. That is definitely not good news for us. We'll have to see how they develop their boards going forward and perhaps change accordingly. I feel like the UR matchup is really critical right now and that will probably be the most played deck at the GP.

It seems like no one really wants to talk about it, but I am not making it to the GP because of real-life things, so this Friday I am thinking of trying a Land Tax build. Anyone feel like a number other than 2 Land Tax would be better? Or is running it just a bad idea?

[Kayradis]

In my experience testing with it, Firewalker > COP
Can be vialed, gain life and is simply amazing.
Got 2 in my board for this weekend.

[H]

In my experience testing with it, Firewalker > COP
Can be vialed, gain life and is simply amazing.
Got 2 in my board for this weekend.

I think if I were to play at the GP, my board would be:

2 Kor Firewalker
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Sunlance
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Cataclysm
2 Ethersworn Canonist

I think winning the UR matchup is really important to be able to do well at this event.

[alwaysdrawing]

I like Firewalker better than CoP Red simply because CoP Red is too slow for UR Delver, which is the most common deck in the meta. Warmth is also fine, though I wouldn't bring it in against UR Delver, only Burn.

I top 32'd Eternal Weekend after losing my win and in for top 8 in Round 9, and I went 4-0 against UR Delver on the day.

I am changing my list considerably in both the main and side, but my sideboard cards for UR are probably going to be:
2 Absolute Law (IMO better against Pyroclasm, Forked Bolt, Electrickery as bolts to the face aren't as relevant as bolts to your entire team)
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Ratchet Bomb

Yes, D&T does play 12 1-CMC spells (Vial, Swords, and Mom), but we cannot cast Chalice on turn 1, so typically we can cast a 1-CMC on T1 or T2 and jam CotV on T2 or T3 depending on the situation. There is simply no better card in the format against their deck with 30 1 CMC spells. Chalice won me multiple games against delver lists, and they have to keep Force of Will in against you and have it, or they just lose the game.

Chalice is also amazing against Elves, Burn, Storm, and Reanimator.

[rlesko]

Its almost 3 am and I'm having this crazy thought that I might play D & T this weekend. It just seems so well positioned right now. UR players are definitely bringing in Electrickery but I was surprised at how poorly that matchup felt from the UR perspective. They will assuredly bring in Pithing Needle and maybe Null Rod do we bother trying to answer those cards?

[endqwerty]

I just went 5-0 against uwr stoneblade if it helps.

[rlesko]

I just went 5-0 against uwr stoneblade if it helps.

With Delver's or the list that recently won the SCG Open?

[Quasim0ff]

With Delver's or the list that recently won the SCG Open?
Stoneblade is the UWR Dig Through Time list, Rudy plays I imagine. The other is UWR Delver.

[endqwerty]

Stoneblade has the digs. Stoneblade is not the delver list.

Overall i did well against uwr stoneblade and uwr delver. Had more trouble with the delver deck because of the quicker clock and forked bolts. Infect was also annoying because of the immediate threats that come out quickly. Blighted agent was probably the most annoying card. Best I could hope for was turn 1 vial into turn 2 swords with a turn 3 vial in stoneforge while spending my mana somehow. The matchup against infect seem to be how quickly you can establosh a board presence with jitte out. Once jitte is out life is much easier.

[Neeraj]

Good luck to all the Death & Taxes pilots this weekend at GP New Jersey! And more importantly, have fun!
:tongue:

[rlesko]

Do note Caleb Durward's most recent article on CFB. No Dazes, TONS of burn spells.

[Cecilia Jupe]

absolute law is pretty nice vs UR delver if you are willing to go that far

[Colin]

Hello,

I usually lurk here and just read. I've been playing D&T for a while now and don't think I'll ever take it apart. I got to play in GP New Jersey this weekend and managed to make it to 12-2 before I lost my win-and-in to Dan Jordan to finish right on the cusp at 32nd.

I played this list:

9x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Karakas
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Flagstones of Trokair

4x AEther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Flickerwisp
3x Serra Avenger
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Aven Mindsensor


SIDEBOARD
3x Containment Priest
1x Council's Judgment
1x Rest in Peace
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x grafdiggers cage
2x kor firewalker
1x sun lance
2x cataclysm
1x pithing needle
1x manriki

I played, in order:

Day 1

Burn (0-2), Elves (2-0), Bant lands/farmville (2-0), Monoblack Pox (2-0), UWR delver/blade w/true name (2-1), 4 color stoneblade without red and heavy green for ??? (1-2), U/R Delver (2-1), Storm (2-0), Burn (2-0)

Day two

D&T (2-1), BUG Delver (2-1)

Round 3 I wanted to touch on:
UWR Delver Blade (2-1) this guy was a class act. We had three awesome games, went to time. I missed a jitte trigger that would have allowed lethal damage and could only get him to 2 on turn 4 of 5. He conceded to me in turn 5 and let me take a run at it. I am very thankful.

Sneak and Show (2-1), Sneak and Show (2-1), U/R Delver (1-2)

All in all a good time. I used every card in the sideboard multiple times. If I could change anything, I would cut a phyrexian revoker for a 2nd minscensor in the main. Bird-wizard did work all day and at least trys to trade with delver. I will also be working on find something (BRimaz) to take the spot of SOFI. I never wanted it any match.

I might also switch RIP with Relic

My strategy for the U/R delver matchup: Side out revoker, vial, batterskull . Side in sun lance, RIP, containment priest, kor firewalker, ethersworn!!!!<- best card in the match.
Don't even try to play with their mana unless you have nothing to do. Don't waste them you'd rather have the lands. (and it feeds cruise)

Jam creatures and run them out of cards. D&T creatures are just better than UR delver creatures and you have more of them. Save you removal for Young pyromancer and try to fight delver with flyers until you have to sunlance/STP them. This worked well for me in testing and in rounds until I punted by forgetting about electricery damage on ethersworn and blocked a 1/1.......such a bad feeling.

Cavern on Soldier does work on KOR, thalia, birmaz and turning off their smash to smithereens by siding out artifacts for blockers and threats is very good. I found that stoneforge, grab jitte, then never deploy it unless you're gauranteed a connection is awesome. They'll float smash for turn and turns is all D&T needs.

Hot tech from the D&T mirror guy: Jotun Grunt is a house in the U/R delver mirror. two burn spells or they never get to cruise!

Thanks for reading and to everyone that was there to make this a great event.

[jim111589]

Hello,

I usually lurk here and just read. I've been playing D&T for a while now and don't think I'll ever take it apart. I got to play in GP New Jersey this weekend and managed to make it to 12-2 before I lost my win-and-in to Dan Jordan to finish right on the cusp at 32nd.

I played this list:

9x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Karakas
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Flagstones of Trokair

4x AEther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Flickerwisp
3x Serra Avenger
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Aven Mindsensor


SIDEBOARD
3x Containment Priest
1x Council's Judgment
1x Rest in Peace
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x grafdiggers cage
2x kor firewalker
1x sun lance
2x cataclysm
1x pithing needle
1x manriki

I played, in order:

Day 1

Burn (0-2), Elves (2-0), Bant lands/farmville (2-0), Monoblack Pox (2-0), UWR delver/blade w/true name (2-1), 4 color stoneblade without red and heavy green for ??? (1-2), U/R Delver (2-1), Storm (2-0), Burn (2-0)

Day two

D&T (2-1), BUG Delver (2-1)

Round 3 I wanted to touch on:
UWR Delver Blade (2-1) this guy was a class act. We had three awesome games, went to time. I missed a jitte trigger that would have allowed lethal damage and could only get him to 2 on turn 4 of 5. He conceded to me in turn 5 and let me take a run at it. I am very thankful.

Sneak and Show (2-1), Sneak and Show (2-1), U/R Delver (1-2)

All in all a good time. I used every card in the sideboard multiple times. If I could change anything, I would cut a phyrexian revoker for a 2nd minscensor in the main. Bird-wizard did work all day and at least trys to trade with delver. I will also be working on find something (BRimaz) to take the spot of SOFI. I never wanted it any match.

I might also switch RIP with Relic

My strategy for the U/R delver matchup: Side out revoker, vial, batterskull . Side in sun lance, RIP, containment priest, kor firewalker, ethersworn!!!!<- best card in the match.
Don't even try to play with their mana unless you have nothing to do. Don't waste them you'd rather have the lands. (and it feeds cruise)

Jam creatures and run them out of cards. D&T creatures are just better than UR delver creatures and you have more of them. Save you removal for Young pyromancer and try to fight delver with flyers until you have to sunlance/STP them. This worked well for me in testing and in rounds until I punted by forgetting about electricery damage on ethersworn and blocked a 1/1.......such a bad feeling.

Cavern on Soldier does work on KOR, thalia, birmaz and turning off their smash to smithereens by siding out artifacts for blockers and threats is very good. I found that stoneforge, grab jitte, then never deploy it unless you're gauranteed a connection is awesome. They'll float smash for turn and turns is all D&T needs.

Hot tech from the D&T mirror guy: Jotun Grunt is a house in the U/R delver mirror. two burn spells or they never get to cruise!

Thanks for reading and to everyone that was there to make this a great event.


what will the preist do for your u/r delver match since it doesnt stop pyromancer?

[Tylert]

what will the preist do for your u/r delver match since it doesnt stop pyromancer?

Only thing I coulkd see for it is that it's a 2/2 flash body and could sometimes surprise an attacking Pyromancer.
Other than that, I don't see what it could do.

[Colin]

what will the preist do for your u/r delver match since it doesnt stop pyromancer?

It doesn't die to electrickery or two for one with forked bolt. It blocks tokens and sometimes let's you live the dream of flickerwisp exile. Cavern on human is relevant and while faking stone forge activation you can spend the mana to flash him. Mostly: it blocks better than aether vial

[H]

So, yet another "big" win for a UWR. Question, how would you guys feel about swapping Sword of Fire and Ice for Sword of War and Peace?

I feel like in a vacuum, Fire and Ice is clearly superior. However, if the main removal we see is StP and Bolt, War and Peace offers some very nice protection. Also, War and Peace provides lifegain and a potentially faster clock. I feel the choice is very meta dependent and also dependent on how many Spirit of the Labyrinth we are running. Thoughts?

Also, I tried out Land Tax at my local on Friday and went 3-0-1. Land Tax was largely irrelevant in the result, although in one long game it did net me 7 Plains, but the effect of that could be anywhere from good to insignificant. I might try it out some more though.

[rlesko]

My strategy for the U/R delver matchup: Side out revoker, vial, batterskull . Side in sun lance, RIP, containment priest, kor firewalker, ethersworn!!!!<- best card in the match.
Don't even try to play with their mana unless you have nothing to do. Don't waste them you'd rather have the lands. (and it feeds cruise)

Jam creatures and run them out of cards. D&T creatures are just better than UR delver creatures and you have more of them. Save you removal for Young pyromancer and try to fight delver with flyers until you have to sunlance/STP them. This worked well for me in testing and in rounds until I punted by forgetting about electricery damage on ethersworn and blocked a 1/1.......such a bad feeling.

Cavern on Soldier does work on KOR, thalia, birmaz and turning off their smash to smithereens by siding out artifacts for blockers and threats is very good. I found that stoneforge, grab jitte, then never deploy it unless you're gauranteed a connection is awesome. They'll float smash for turn and turns is all D&T needs.

Hot tech from the D&T mirror guy: Jotun Grunt is a house in the U/R delver mirror. two burn spells or they never get to cruise!

Thanks for reading and to everyone that was there to make this a great event.

Were you the guy with the absolutely beautiful D&T deck? You should post a picture :)

I'm mostly a UR player and I agree on definitely taking revoker out, but taking out all vials seems strange. That card can cause such a headache, granted it is answered by Pithing Needle, I will probably always Force of Will a vial if I'm on the draw. I can see the logic in Batterskull (it is slow, and SFM will likely eat a bolt instantly), so you will almost never be able to cheat it into play. Ethersworn, Kor Firewalker, and the 5th removal is probably enough, though you were the guy sitting at 12-2 with a win and inf or top 8, while I was on the sidelines. Just trying to give the opposite perspective.

[Poron]

you already play Jitte, and Batterskull, don't you only need something to avoid artifact distruction to win?

[mikeshimoji]

First time poster on this site. Thanks for all your great ideas and contribution. It has helped me quite a bit in recent hard times dominated by blue. But as many have concluded, I do find that d and t is actually positioned well despite ancestral recall being reprinted.

My first question is whether Aven Mindcensor should be considered much more now that uwr stoneblade has been on the upswing. The flash flier seems like a good place to be to combat search heavy decks while having game against delver.

I only ask because the list here in Japan that went top 8 in a 330 man tourney ran two copies in main. Perhaps it is now much better now that -1-1 effects are going down, though we would have to be cautious about fork bolt still.

Thoughts will be helpful.

[Pattycake]

Hi everyone!

I was able to make the trip to GPNJ from St. Louis Missouri this last weekend, and had an absolute blast playing D&T (Thanks to my friend Dan who let me borrow his beautiful deck). I've had some practice with the deck between smaller tounaments like IQs, but this was my first time in a major tournament piloting the deck, and my first GP for that matter too. I ended up 7-1-1 after day one, and 9-5-1 overall.

For starters, here is my list:

11x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Karakas
1x Cavern of Souls

4x AEther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Flickerwisp
3x Serra Avenger
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Mirran Crusader


SIDEBOARD
2x Containment Priest
1x Council's Judgment
2x Rest in Peace
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Grafdiggers cage
2x Kor firewalker
1x Gut Shot
1x Cataclysm
1x Pithing needle
1x Wilt-Leaf Liege
1x Ratchet Bomb

First I will give a quick run down of the match ups, and then go into more detail about the games. Finally I will discuss what I liked/disliked, and my general take away from the tournament. Enjoy!

Day 1

U/G Infect (2-1), U/R Delver (2-0), Jeski Control (2-1), Miracles (2-0), Tezzert Helminator (2-0), D&T (1-1-1), Shardless BUG (1-2), U/R Delver (2-1), Miracles (2-0).

Day two

RUG Threshold Delver (1-2), Miracles (1-2), Show and Tell (0-2), Reanimator (2-0), Jeski Control (0-2), Miracles (2-1).



Now for the in depth review of the games, this is all coming from memory so I apologize now if it seems a little scrambled.


Match 1 (U/G Infect)
Usually a fair match up for us, luckily Dan (my friend who let me borrow this deck) is a fantastic Infect Pilot and a devotee of Tom Ross. Needless to say I have had a ton of games on this match up. Played around perice/daze when I could, and gummed up the board enough to slow down his glistener elf plan. After that assemble jitte and pray then don't have krosan grip in hand post board (this is why you aggressively kill EVERYTHING with infect). Hold wastes for flying infect baddies, swords for unblockable infect baddies, and you should be on your way to a match win.
Win (2-1)


Match 2 (U/R Delver)
Not much to say here. This pilot was pretty new and it showed on his delver play. He couldn't beat batterskull game 1, and double kor firewalker did him in game 2. Decided to do a casual grudge match so I could help him with his delver triggers (reveal for trigger, fectch away card, etc.), and it turns out he just bought into legacy a week ago. Always glad to help new players =)
Win (2-0)


Match 3 (Jeski Control)
With the game one lead of island ponder, island brainstorm, I had him on Omni-Tell and try for the race against time. He eventually plays a tundra and SFM, but is too far behind on the board to interact.
Game 2 is a bit more of the same, although after resolving a DTT he finds a Verdict. From there he stumbles after I vail in another SFM and assemble vultron, and pull away another win. Thankfully didn't see TNN in his deck.
Win (2-0)


Match 4 (Miricles)
I find myself aganst a pretty good miricles piolt, but had a very nice start of T1 Vial, T2 Thalia (eats a force) EOT vail mom, T3 my EOT he brainstorms I vail Spirit of the Lab. From there Spirit goes all the way (dem 3 point beats) while I hold a vial on two for phyrexian rev if he plays top. Game 2 I get needle on top and flood the board. Get a batterskull and sword on the field with him down to 11 when he naturals a terminus on his 2nd main. His EOT I vial Mirrian Crusader, equip SOFI and hit for 12. <3
Win (2-0)


Match 5 (Helminator)
This was a pleasant surprise, as he T0 leyline of the voids me, and I crack a smile with two phyrexian revokers in hand. G1 he has a pretty explosive start with T3 Tezzert AOB into swing with a 5/5, but after a revoker on Tezz and a flickerwisp to reset his 5/5 I get the game. *Warning* Misplays Incoming. Game 2 I am happy to see a way to shut off both the helm and thropter combo with RIP and Revoker. I lead with a RIP on two and immediately realize my mistake as he gives me a weird look (I had assumed he would SB out the Helm-combo, silly me). He TezzertsAOB which I vial in Revoker in response. Then he big daddy Tezz -4 for helm and I am looking really dumb with a RIP on the board. Luckily the heart of the cards was with me and I ripped a flickerwisp off the top to reset my revoker, and get the game.
Win (2-0)


Match 6 (D&T)
Pretty boring match, games 1 and 2 are decided by who gets jitte online first after both moms get STP. Game three is a massive stall for me, we both have 2+ moms, 2+ SFM, but he has Manriki. I am forced to stall the board with revokers, and attempt to win with fliers. Eventually we draw while we are both 20+ life thanks to repetitive batterskull trades.
Draw (1-1-1)


Match 7 (Shardless BUG)
This is a pretty rough match-up, as it is near impossible to match their card advantage. I played it as a race, but this opponent had main deck Toxic Deluge witch blew me out game 1, and golgri charms post side which made me cautious to go too aggressive. Was only able to win game 2 due to rev. on Liliana, and a sworded up Serra avenger. Game 3 I get Wilt-leaf into play off a Hymn to Tourach, but due to some shardless into abrupt decayx2, can't clutter the board enough to save it from Liliana -2.
Loss (1-2)


Match 8 (U/R Delver)
Finally another delver deck. This is my game where Brimaz showed why he is king. Game 1 was pretty easy with a vialed in Spirit on a brainstorm, and a t4 batterskull. Game 2 was a blowout his way with two smash to smithereens for SOFI and batterskull. Game 3 was one of the more challenging games I had in the tournament, on a weak keep of 6, T1 play a vial into a force, T2 a mom into a bolt. Port T3, and T4 I play brimaz with a karakus up with nothing but lands in hand. For the rest of the game I try to landlock him with ports and wastes, all while keeping karakus up for brimaz, and eventually get there. He shows me a loaded hand and felt lucky getting that game.
win (2-1)


Match 9 (Miracles)
Finally to the last match of the day, which decides if I get to advance or not to day two. I see a T1 top and let out a audible groan. Luckily due to some tight play and the power of vial + equipment I am able to squeeze out wins in both games 1 and 2. I was never able to lock out the top, so had to play to the board very lightly, winning game one with a mom + sworded Serra avenger through a lethal flock of angels. Game 2 purely through threat density and him not finding top.
Win (2-0)


Okay going to take a break here for now, I should have day two and my final thoughts out sometime in the next few hours.

To be continued.

[TalesofDawn]

First time posting, just to say that I'm glad I saw as much DnT as I did. I wish I could've done the deck more justice, but I day two'd my first ever GP, so I'm pretty happy with that. I don't remember my games well enough to give write-ups, but I can give results:
2-0 Dredge, 2-0 Junk, 2-0 BUG Delver, 0-2 Elves, 2-1 DnT, 1-2 Mono Green Stompy?, 2-0 Shardless BUG, 2-1 Lands, 2-1 Burn. That put me at 7-2 day 1, narrowly making it to day 2. Sadly, I punted day 2, ending up 2-3-1 by 2-0ing UR Delver and DnT, Drawing with UR Delver, and losing to Jeskai Stoneblade twice and Burn.

It was a great time. Getting to play 15 rounds of Legacy is no joke.

[Colin]

Were you the guy with the absolutely beautiful D&T deck? You should post a picture :)

I'm mostly a UR player and I agree on definitely taking revoker out, but taking out all vials seems strange. That card can cause such a headache, granted it is answered by Pithing Needle, I will probably always Force of Will a vial if I'm on the draw. I can see the logic in Batterskull (it is slow, and SFM will likely eat a bolt instantly), so you will almost never be able to cheat it into play. Ethersworn, Kor Firewalker, and the 5th removal is probably enough, though you were the guy sitting at 12-2 with a win and inf or top 8, while I was on the sidelines. Just trying to give the opposite perspective.

I think that my testing might have been skewed. All the U/R delver I tested against were running 3x smash in the board and basically blew me out with them every game. Smash, take 3, trigger swift spear, trigger young P. In retrospect I would probably bring them back in on the draw.

Depends on you version of beautiful. I have full art serra avenger, beta swords, oldest english version everything and all Guru plains. I sat next to some other taxes players that had the full foil deal going on. Depends on what you like I guess?

[Pattycake]

Continued from Previous Post

After struggling to find some reasonable food the night before (apparently NJ doesn't believe in consumerism), we decided to turn in around 12:30am to wake up for our players meeting at 7:55am. Feeling pretty good after a strong day one, and being played in the top 100 going into day two. Little did I know I was about to get a fistful of reality.


Match 10 (RUG Delver)
Find myself against a very talented foreign RUG player, but liking my match-up felt quite confident about the win. Develop a very clean win game one with SFM/Batterskull and Spirit of the Lab, while playing around his soft permission. Looking through the board it seemed pretty weak to his deck, but figured if I could land a RIP I should be in good shape. I Mulligan a trash hand game 2 and find a nice set with mom, Thalia, flickerwisp, vial. Develop a nice board and get him down to 6 with lethal on board, go for the swing, and get absolutely blown out by Sulfur Elemental. That card can get fucked. Game 3 I keep on 6 again, but feel good with a RIP in hand. T2 it gets forced, and then I attempt to slog through pyroclasm, smash to smithereens, and finally die to a Sulfur Elemental...someone had quite the hateful SB.
Loss (1-2)


Match 11 (Miracles)
After getting thoroughly stomped two games in a row I am excited to play vs. a deck I am currently 2-0 against. However game one he forces my T1 vail, cleans up my board with a T4 Terminus, and untapps to entreat T6...Down resources and board presence I die to his handful of angels. Game 2 was my best game of the whole tournament, and really highlighted what this deck is capable of. I am able to resolve a T1 vial, followed by a T2 thalia, T3 Serra, while he finds a terminus off top and sends my board to the bottom of the deck. I play mom, he swords. I follow it by vailing in revoker naming top, and he jaces and bounces it back. I replay revoker naming jace, play SFM. End of my turn, he entreats for 4, and I cry a little. He swings 3 of the four. Swords revoker, Snaps STP on SFM I put SOFI into battle, I flicker it for jitte.

The board is Vial on 3, SFM, flickerwisp, SOFI. His Jace, Snap, Four angles, Top.

My turn I flicker a token, SFM jitte, equip it and SOFI to the flicker, attack him, kill snap and jace, draw flicker. He attacks again, leaving one back. I flicker his token, swing for lethal. He shows me blue card, counterspell, force.

After that game I lose quite uneventfully to a clique grabbing my Ratchet bomb, then eventually EOT Entreat for 5, swing lethal.
Loss (1-2)


Match 12 (Show and Tell)
After yet another rough loss, I find myself lucky to be paired vs. show and tell.... I win the die roll, and go plains mom. His play is turn 1 city of traitors, lotus pedal, show and tell Grisledad, while I feel awkward with keeping a SFM hand. I quickly die.
Game 2 I see Spirit, Revoker, SFM on my mull to 6, no Karakus. T2 Revoker is wear/teared. He plays show and tell, I put in SpiritOTL, him sneak attack. I play SFM, attack, waste. He untapps to Sneak in Grislebrand and Emerkul. Seems good.
Loss (0-2)


Match 13 (Reanimator)
Have a interesting game one with a turn 1 karakus into vail. Him getting stormtide leviathan, and I race him with Serra avengers with Jitte/mom.
Game 2 I see containment priest, graffdiggers cage, vial, karakus...needless to say he did not get very far.
Win (2-0)


Match 14 (Jeski Control)
This game one hurt. He goes T2 SFM, T3 TNN, And I spend the next three turns vialing in a revoker that get sworded, and two flickerwisp just to keep the jitte from getting to TNN. Eventually he gets another SFM for batterskull and I cant keep them both off of him and still race.
Game 2 is a quick T2 SFM, T3 SFM, T4 TNN, and I can't keep both of them off again...
Loss (0-2)


Match 15 (Miracles)
And to the last match of the Tournament, where I am still quite salty from losing to TNN. I see a t1 top, and reslove a t1 vial. I follow it up with ports, wastes, revoker. He is able to topdeck terminus and stabilize with batterskull.
Both games 2 and 3 he mulls to 6 and I lock him down to 1 useable land a turn with ports wastes, but have a thalia out in play poking him to death. Pretty uneventful finish.
Win (2-1)



Final Thoughts

Maindeck:
I felt overall that I had a very powerful maindeck, and would change little about it.

Brimaz is a must right now, he is a powerhouse that already works well with our gameplan, and with karakus/vial on 3 is near impossible to deal with.
Spirit is sweet, but still wouldn't mind a better answer to blue. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I found that holding to try to 'get them' with vial is just not worth it, and it is much better to just jam it on two and make them have an answer.
One of Mirrian earned his spot. Don't you dare touch him.
flickerwisp is more powerful the more you play with the deck,and I respect this card more now than I ever thought I would.
Serra avenger was good, but could likely be just 2.
I somehow still found myself white mana light multiple games...not sure if there is much you can do about that. If you are going to swap out a plains it needs to be for something that produces white. I found myself wanting another cavern at times, but felt that could also add to the white mana issue.


SB
This is where I felt like I needed the most work. One huge take away was that I meta gamed way to hard for the GP. At a tournament like this you want either super high impact cards for specific match up (see wilt-leaf liege), very flexible cards (pithing needle), or idealy both (Containment Priest).

Kor Firewalker is a boss and earned his spot.
Gut shot was too cute and just didn't cut it, however I just needed the extra removal in some match ups, so moving ahead I think I will use path to exile. Even though I may give them a land, it is better than being dead to something you can't answer.
Equipment is really big right now and I had very few ways to answer them. Manriki would have been nice, but even another council's judgement could have worked.
I don't think you want ratchet bomb in your SB right now, great card, but just too reactive. I'd rather have my answer on a body.
Liliana decks in general are pretty awkward for this deck right now, it is possible you want another revoker, but then you open yourself open to golgri charm. You could run wilt-leaf liege, but that is pretty narrow. Just an awkward thing I noticed about the current version of the deck, and you better hope you don't play BUG control/Punishing Jund.
Knowing what you want to bring in for match-ups is just not enough, you need to know what you want to take out (which I found much more difficult). Going forward that is something I plan to research.


Overall I had a blast and learned a great deal about the deck. One immediate change in play I will incorporate is mulligan more aggressively post side for my interaction pieces. GPNJ had an incredible atmosphere (although NJ itself no so much), and our group is already making plans for our next legacy GP. Star City certainly knows how to host a GP, and the finals were a treat to watch. D&T is a great deck that awards patience, practiced pilots, and I know with even more reps I could shoot for a top 32 finish next time. I found it a favorable match-up vs. U/R delver if you go the mana denial plan, as any creature you have out their fights favorable with theirs. Mirciles is still a slog, but with tight play can be good. The only deck I am truely worried about is the jeski control list, as DTT for True-name/Supreme Verdict/SFM/etc. is a beating.

Hope you enjoyed the report, and good luck in your next tournament!

-Pattycake

[akiratheoni]

Final Thoughts

Maindeck:
I felt overall that I had a very powerful maindeck, and would change little about it.

Brimaz is a must right now, he is a powerhouse that already works well with our gameplan, and with karakus/vial on 3 is near impossible to deal with.
Spirit is sweet, but still wouldn't mind a better answer to blue. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I found that holding to try to 'get them' with vial is just not worth it, and it is much better to just jam it on two and make them have an answer.
One of Mirrian earned his spot. Don't you dare touch him.
flickerwisp is more powerful the more you play with the deck,and I respect this card more now than I ever thought I would.
Serra avenger was good, but could likely be just 2.
I somehow still found myself white mana light multiple games...not sure if there is much you can do about that. If you are going to swap out a plains it needs to be for something that produces white. I found myself wanting another cavern at times, but felt that could also add to the white mana issue.


SB
This is where I felt like I needed the most work. One huge take away was that I meta gamed way to hard for the GP. At a tournament like this you want either super high impact cards for specific match up (see wilt-leaf liege), very flexible cards (pithing needle), or idealy both (Containment Priest).

Kor Firewalker is a boss and earned his spot.
Gut shot was too cute and just didn't cut it, however I just needed the extra removal in some match ups, so moving ahead I think I will use path to exile. Even though I may give them a land, it is better than being dead to something you can't answer.
Equipment is really big right now and I had very few ways to answer them. Manriki would have been nice, but even another council's judgement could have worked.
I don't think you want ratchet bomb in your SB right now, great card, but just too reactive. I'd rather have my answer on a body.
Liliana decks in general are pretty awkward for this deck right now, it is possible you want another revoker, but then you open yourself open to golgri charm. You could run wilt-leaf liege, but that is pretty narrow. Just an awkward thing I noticed about the current version of the deck, and you better hope you don't play BUG control/Punishing Jund.
Knowing what you want to bring in for match-ups is just not enough, you need to know what you want to take out (which I found much more difficult). Going forward that is something I plan to research.


Overall I had a blast and learned a great deal about the deck. One immediate change in play I will incorporate is mulligan more aggressively post side for my interaction pieces. GPNJ had an incredible atmosphere (although NJ itself no so much), and our group is already making plans for our next legacy GP. Star City certainly knows how to host a GP, and the finals were a treat to watch. D&T is a great deck that awards patience, practiced pilots, and I know with even more reps I could shoot for a top 32 finish next time. I found it a favorable match-up vs. U/R delver if you go the mana denial plan, as any creature you have out their fights favorable with theirs. Mirciles is still a slog, but with tight play can be good. The only deck I am truely worried about is the jeski control list, as DTT for True-name/Supreme Verdict/SFM/etc. is a beating.

Hope you enjoyed the report, and good luck in your next tournament!

-Pattycake

Hey, good job on the finish. I ended up 9-4-2 at GP:NJ on Death and Taxes as well. Pretty happy with how I did, and it's a little bit sweeter knowing that I started off the day 1-2 and won out 6-0 to make day 2.

If I may make a suggestion, instead of running Path to Exile or Gut Shot you could run Sunlance. The only thing is that it's not good against is the mirror match and Tarmogoyf, but it hits almost everything else without needing to give them a land. It hits flipped Delvers, kills Deathrite Shamans, kills all Elves, etc. It's also only sorcery speed but every time I've used it I haven't had an issue with it. I ran 2 in my sideboard and when I boarded them in it was awesome.

[H]

I love Sunlance, it kills everything that is really relevant. Goyf is just a durtle and if you Sunlance what you can, you should have a StP for him if you really need it.

I was going to try out a different deck for this week's FNM, but I think I am just going to run D&T (or as I like to call it The Plain Win Again), but I might try out a Sword of War and Peace this time.

[Pattycake]

Hey, good job on the finish. I ended up 9-4-2 at GP:NJ on Death and Taxes as well. Pretty happy with how I did, and it's a little bit sweeter knowing that I started off the day 1-2 and won out 6-0 to make day 2.

If I may make a suggestion, instead of running Path to Exile or Gut Shot you could run Sunlance. The only thing is that it's not good against is the mirror match and Tarmogoyf, but it hits almost everything else without needing to give them a land. It hits flipped Delvers, kills Deathrite Shamans, kills all Elves, etc. It's also only sorcery speed but every time I've used it I haven't had an issue with it. I ran 2 in my sideboard and when I boarded them in it was awesome.

The issue is, Goyf is one of the things I wanted the extra removal for. Most of the decks that run him can deal with your moms, and then I am just watching myself get hit in the face for 5 a turn. Not the easiest race, especially when my removal is already taxed with delver.

[Pattycake]

I love Sunlance, it kills everything that is really relevant. Goyf is just a durtle and if you Sunlance what you can, you should have a StP for him if you really need it.

I was going to try out a different deck for this week's FNM, but I think I am just going to run D&T (or as I like to call it The Plain Win Again), but I might try out a Sword of War and Peace this time.

I would not suggest SOWP, as it shuts off your own moms. It might be nice vs. the new jeski stoneblade/control decks that we have issues with, but then they just find TNN and you are sad. SOFI is also one of the few ways of generating card advantage that our deck has now (since we no longer use mangara), which could put you further behind in the control match ups.

[H]

I would not suggest SOWP, as it shuts off your own moms. It might be nice vs. the new jeski stoneblade/control decks that we have issues with, but then they just find TNN and you are sad. SOFI is also one of the few ways of generating card advantage that our deck has now (since we no longer use mangara), which could put you further behind in the control match ups.

Bleh, yeah, you're right, curse you double-edge-Sword protection...

[Barbed Blightning]

Bleh, yeah, you're right, curse you double-edge-Sword protection...
If we keep the flier count high, I think SoWaP has potential.


Also, por que no los dos?

[movingtonewao]

Depends on you version of beautiful. I have full art serra avenger, beta swords, oldest english version everything and all Guru plains. I sat next to some other taxes players that had the full foil deal going on. Depends on what you like I guess?

did you just say all guru plains. OMG. Respect.

[H]

If we keep the flier count high, I think SoWaP has potential.


Also, por que no los dos?

Maybe I'll still try it, I don't know, I'll see how I feel Friday. I'be been running 3 'Wisp and 3 Avenger. I might put in 1 Mindcensor then, he usually treats me well...or just blocks a Delver.

Also, que? Hablo ingles solamente. (Did I do that right?)

[Barbed Blightning]

Maybe I'll still try it, I don't know, I'll see how I feel Friday. I'be been running 3 'Wisp and 3 Avenger. I might put in 1 Mindcensor then, he usually treats me well...or just blocks a Delver.

Also, que? Hablo ingles solamente. (Did I do that right?)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OawrlVoQqSs

I'd run a SoWaP in the board.

Also if there was anything I learned from scrubbing out at the GP it's that I never should have cut Mangara from my list. And that Spirit is a garbage card.

[H]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OawrlVoQqSs

I'd run a SoWaP in the board.

Also if there was anything I learned from scrubbing out at the GP it's that I never should have cut Mangara from my list. And that Spirit is a garbage card.

:laugh: my Spanish is really horrendous, been a long time since high school.

I am really on the fence about Mangara. I love him, but if people are going to board in Electrickery, I really want to limit my X/1's. Spirit has been good for me so far though...

[Barbed Blightning]

:laugh: my Spanish is really horrendous, been a long time since high school.

I am really on the fence about Mangara. I love him, but if people are going to board in Electrickery, I really want to limit my X/1's. Spirit has been good for me so far though...

I have a year of College Spanish too, still horrendous.


I think Electrickery/Pyrokinesis are the shittiest x/1 hate we've seen played against us. Charm and Persecution were far more problematic; at least Jitte and Mom can interact with these.

I also don't think Mangara and Electrickery/Pyro will ever see one another in a game.

[from Cairo]

I am really on the fence about Mangara. I love him, but if people are going to board in Electrickery, I really want to limit my X/1's. Spirit has been good for me so far though...

I think we want to cut Mangara post board against Delver. The decks' CMC is so low to the ground that a 1/1 3drop that doesn't effect the board for a turn is often too slow. Delver decks are going after us with mostly X/1-X/2s and we have Equipment to serve as more practical inevitability. Mangara's value is against slower attrition decks. Against Miracles it's must answer. Other Jace decks, Ancient Tomb based strategies or as an extra safety net against Show and Tell decks - any deck that's goal is to put a highish CMC permanent into play - either by attacking their resources under Thalia or if they get their big card into play - exiling that. I kind of like having the one MD at the moment - it can get you out of some awkward spots and is an extra means inevitability in fringe matches.

[H]

I have a year of College Spanish too, still horrendous.


I think Electrickery/Pyrokinesis are the shittiest x/1 hate we've seen played against us. Charm and Persecution were far more problematic; at least Jitte and Mom can interact with these.

I also don't think Mangara and Electrickery/Pyro will ever see one another in a game.

That's true, but still obnoxious. I almost always run 1 Mangara main. It seems lately though I am playing more and more aggressive decks where I don't have time to set him up. Also, I have seen more of the mirror lately and he is really awkward there if they have a Karakas out before him.

[Fry]

I always run Mangara. I feel that it's too good to not run. I side it out in some matches like storm, but it's an answer to everything outside of TNN. I begrudgingly cut the third one from my list for GP Jersey and the two I kept left did me a lot of good. Also a Flickerwisp on your opponents MOM after you target it EOT with StP... when they have a Containment Priest in play... Thanks for making my Flickerwisp into an Utter End.

[Colin]

Has anyone done any testing with this card as a 1-2 of?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-mtg-helper/mtg_helper_cardfinder.php?find=Hallowed+Spiritkeeper&width=223&height=310

[Barbed Blightning]

Has anyone done any testing with this card as a 1-2 of?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-mtg-helper/mtg_helper_cardfinder.php?find=Hallowed+Spiritkeeper&width=223&height=310
Why would we?

[Colin]

Why would we?

Well, I thought that the art of the card might really tie together the look of Thalia's almost dream-like backround and the straight forward approach of Brimaz and his stoic and memorable onward and upward art.:rolleyes:


i was wondering if anyone has played the card because it's in the right color, in D&T mana range, pushes 3 damage with a keyword, has a replacement effect and might be worth a slot somewhere, someday.

I haven't seen any discussion of it so I thought I'd ask the people who play the most D&T.

[MGB]

I think that my testing might have been skewed. All the U/R delver I tested against were running 3x smash in the board and basically blew me out with them every game. Smash, take 3, trigger swift spear, trigger young P. In retrospect I would probably bring them back in on the draw.

Depends on you version of beautiful. I have full art serra avenger, beta swords, oldest english version everything and all Guru plains. I sat next to some other taxes players that had the full foil deal going on. Depends on what you like I guess?

Do any of you guys like Snow-Covered Plains (original Ice Age) in this deck? I know Guru Plains or Beta plains is probably the most desireable non-foil Plains you can play, but there's just something about that Christopher Rush art on the original SCP that is hauntingly beautiful.

[Barbed Blightning]

Well, I thought that the art of the card might really tie together the look of Thalia's almost dream-like backround and the straight forward approach of Brimaz and his stoic and memorable onward and upward art.:rolleyes:


i was wondering if anyone has played the card because it's in the right color, in D&T mana range, pushes 3 damage with a keyword, has a replacement effect and might be worth a slot somewhere, someday.

I haven't seen any discussion of it so I thought I'd ask the people who play the most D&T.

That's cool and all, but just because a card is the right color and fits the curve doesn't mean it needs to be tested, or that it is even playable.

What does Spiritkeeper offer us? Nothing that other cards we already run do better. Vigilance beaters? Avenger is cheaper and tougher. Token production? Brimaz makes probably the same amount of tokens or more, is harder to kill and doesn't rely on the graveyard.

Spiritkeeper is a bad fit. Don't waste your time with it.

[mikeshimoji]

Do any of you guys like Snow-Covered Plains (original Ice Age) in this deck? I know Guru Plains or Beta plains is probably the most desireable non-foil Plains you can play, but there's just something about that Christopher Rush art on the original SCP that is hauntingly beautiful.

I have been playing it. My playmat is purple pink (with a picture of Mount Fuji by John Avon) so it matches perfectly. My dice are purple too.

[mikeshimoji]

Sorry, double post but d and t top 8!?

[lithiux]

Sorry, double post but d and t top 8!?

Yep, Bahra just beat Joe Lossett in the finals

[mrjumbo03]

Congrats to Bahra for a truly master class of a performance. Finished top seed with no losses or draws and swept the top 8, 2-0 all 3 rounds. Can someone confirm if he even dropped a game the whole tournament? A report would be awesome.

[Bahra]

Congrats to Bahra for a truly master class of a performance. Finished top seed with no losses or draws and swept the top 8, 2-0 all 3 rounds. Can someone confirm if he even dropped a game the whole tournament? A report would be awesome.


Hi thanks! I'm writing from my hotel room now. I dropped 1 game since I played round 9 even though I was at 8-0 because I was trying to give my friends a better shot at the top 8, but then I lost in 3 games to UR delver to finish at 8-1. But I didn't drop a single game in the top 8 that's true.

I guess I'll write a report for you guys but I really don't like writing reports :tongue:

[Barbed Blightning]

Hi thanks! I'm writing from my hotel room now. I dropped 1 game since I played round 9 even though I was at 8-0 because I was trying to give my friends a better shot at the top 8, but then I lost in 3 games to UR delver to finish at 8-1. But I didn't drop a single game in the top 8 that's true.

I guess I'll write a report for you guys but I really don't like writing reports :tongue:

I only have two questions:

How was your sideboard and would you revise anything in it?

How was the single Containment Priest in the main?

Smashing job, though! Loved watching your games.

[Bahra]

I only have two questions:

How was your sideboard and would you revise anything in it?

How was the single Containment Priest in the main?

Smashing job, though! Loved watching your games.

I loved my sideboard I played the exact same list at GP New Jersey and I feel like it's perfect for the meta. The Containment Priest in the main I didn't really draw a lot, but I played against both Reanimator and Sneak and Show during the event so I definitely wanted it. And I figured that worst case scenario - I can still equip the Containment Priest and then they need to kill it.

[Deviruchi]

Bahra congratulations! What a dream come true. Journey across the ocean with a pimped deck and winning the tournament on camera. See you on stream ;)

[Barbed Blightning]

I loved my sideboard I played the exact same list at GP New Jersey and I feel like it's perfect for the meta. The Containment Priest in the main I didn't really draw a lot, but I played against both Reanimator and Sneak and Show during the event so I definitely wanted it. And I figured that worst case scenario - I can still equip the Containment Priest and then they need to kill it.

Thanks for the quick reply! I think I'll be playing a list very similar to yours in the Portland, OR Open; I, however, am planning on using Mangara of Corondor as opposed to the Containment Priest or one of the other singletons. I know he has fallen out of favor in recent years,but I have one many games off of him. I was wondering what your thoughts are on the card and if I am crazy/nostalgic for still running him.

EDIt: also, love those Serra Avengers.

[Bahra]

Thanks for the quick reply! I think I'll be playing a list very similar to yours in the Portland, OR Open; I, however, am planning on using Mangara of Corondor as opposed to the Containment Priest or one of the other singletons. I know he has fallen out of favor in recent years,but I have one many games off of him. I was wondering what your thoughts are on the card and if I am crazy/nostalgic for still running him.

EDIt: also, love those Serra Avengers.

I love Mangara too but with all the UR delver, he's terrible. However, when these slow UWR stoneblade decks are starting to get really popular, he might be good again. It's hard to say, but I wouldn't fault you for playing Mangara in this meta.

[bhsman]

Congrats on the Open win. :laugh:

[BearsandSquires]

Should use winnings to come to seattle invitational or at least the seattle legacy gp next year.

[tescrin]

@barbed
I'll be at the Portland open. I'll have to say hi and be obnoxious in person. I'll probably see you the following week (and everyone else who attends the SCG Portland) in Seattle as well.

[mikeshimoji]

Hi thanks! I'm writing from my hotel room now. I dropped 1 game since I played round 9 even though I was at 8-0 because I was trying to give my friends a better shot at the top 8, but then I lost in 3 games to UR delver to finish at 8-1. But I didn't drop a single game in the top 8 that's true.

I guess I'll write a report for you guys but I really don't like writing reports :tongue:

I also congratulate from Japan! Woot for d and t represent!

[Barbed Blightning]

@barbed
I'll be at the Portland open. I'll have to say hi and be obnoxious in person. I'll probably see you the following week (and everyone else who attends the SCG Portland) in Seattle as well.
And I can be stubborn and opinionated in person! :) sounds like a plan, pm me on the Source and I should respond.

I'll also be at the Seattle open for our token side event.

[H]

I love Mangara too but with all the UR delver, he's terrible. However, when these slow UWR stoneblade decks are starting to get really popular, he might be good again. It's hard to say, but I wouldn't fault you for playing Mangara in this meta.

Congrats, I was rooting for you the whole time!

I am curious how you felt about your sideboard. How do you feel the board was, as constructed? Would you make any changes?

[Magic_Shortbus9]

Hi thanks! I'm writing from my hotel room now. I dropped 1 game since I played round 9 even though I was at 8-0 because I was trying to give my friends a better shot at the top 8, but then I lost in 3 games to UR delver to finish at 8-1. But I didn't drop a single game in the top 8 that's true.

I guess I'll write a report for you guys but I really don't like writing reports :tongue:
Bahra congratulations D&T is my favorite legacy deck i have been playing it for a little while. I was hoping you could give a detailed sideboard strategy what comes in and out for each match. Thanks.

[Bahra]

Bahra congratulations D&T is my favorite legacy deck i have been playing it for a little while. I was hoping you could give a detailed sideboard strategy what comes in and out for each match. Thanks.

Thanks, but complete sideboard guides are asking for a bit much, if someone (SCG) paid me to write a guide to D&T I would do it. But I have written articles before and I really don't enjoy it. :tongue:

[theBloody]

Bahra good job, man. Well done http://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/jtv_user_pictures/chansub-global-emoticon-577ade91d46d7edc-24x18.png

[Magic_Shortbus9]

Thanks, but complete sideboard guides are asking for a bit much, if someone (SCG) paid me to write a guide to D&T I would do it. But I have written articles before and I really don't enjoy it. :tongue:
No problem. I am fairly new to the deck and struggle with sideboard strategy. I usally know what to bring in its what to take out that is hard for me.

[Luca Grease]

I love Mangara too but with all the UR delver, he's terrible. However, when these slow UWR stoneblade decks are starting to get really popular, he might be good again. It's hard to say, but I wouldn't fault you for playing Mangara in this meta.

First of all, congratulations on the finish. About time DnT got back on top.

There's one thing I'd like to mention: over on the salvation forums some people are advocating a green splash for Gaddok Teeg. The benefits would appear to be huge on paper (miracles, elves, new delve cards), and the risks relatively low in the current meta (wasteland and stifle are at an all time low).

Ever considered this? What's your (and everyone else's) opinion on it?

[cursecatcher]

I managed to 4-0 my weekly Monday event with a list very similar to bahra's, but with an additional cataclysm to account for the amount of miracles locally. The maindeck priest seemed fine, and frees up a bit of room in the board, which is nice. I might try a mangara in that slot though, which seems good with the surge of uwr stoneblade and miracles. I will say that containment priest did a ton of work against my maverick opponent, and would've been great against dredge if I drew it. The potency of the card is undeniable. Being a flash threat against miracles is also not insignificant. One last thing, I learned from bahra's match on camera that the first equipment he usually fetches against miracles seems to be sword, not batterskull like i had always done before. In hindsight this makes a lot of sense, but I am dumb so it took seeing the game play out to understand the logic. When the germ gets term unused along with all you other dudes, early, you don't have the mana to equip right away, most of the time. Sword just keeps making all your dudes into must answers.

[razvan]

This is a deck I thoroughly enjoyed playing. I would love to do another primer for it. If people want me to, of course :)

[Barbed Blightning]

This is a deck I thoroughly enjoyed playing. I would love to do another primer for it. If people want me to, of course :)
No offense, but Finn's the authority on that; I don't think anyone else should be responsible for the primer, he's done a lot for the archetype.

Your Jund primer is very well done, though. :)

[razvan]

D'aww fine. I would have called it "The idiot's guide to Death and Taxes!"

I am THE authority on idiot's guides!

[Barbed Blightning]

D'aww fine. I would have called it "The idiot's guide to Death and Taxes!"

I am THE authority on idiot's guides!
Hey, it helped me learn how to play Jund! :)

[razvan]

Yea, wish I learned it myself. I could have top-8ed the Legacy champs easily if I didn't cock it up like I was being paid for it.

Are there any actual DnT guides though? On the source?

[Barbed Blightning]

Yea, wish I learned it myself. I could have top-8ed the Legacy champs easily if I didn't cock it up like I was being paid for it.

Are there any actual DnT guides though? On the source?
The Primer is all I know of on the Source; I do have a blog about D&T, however, that covers a lot of beginner-level stuff. And there is the Salvation thread and the dozen or so articles on SCG and others like it.

[jinx86]

Bahra,

Congrats man! Love to see DnT win. Always.

I'm also kicking myself b/c I had a mainboard DnT only 2 cards different (2 caverns instead of flagstone, and 2 brimaz instead of 1 containment priest) and I ended up last minute not being able to go. So happy to see a mainboard so similar kick ass (Bahra's sideboard is definitely though 6 cards different and probably a bit better for the meta)

You played like a champ and it's beautiful to see a deck that doesn't run treasure cruise take home the big prize.

[Tylert]

This is a deck I thoroughly enjoyed playing. I would love to do another primer for it. If people want me to, of course :)

You can allways check the primer (The one in MTG salvation might be a little bit more detailled) and suggest anything to Finn. He's quite open when it comes to updating the primer with good advice !

[Wasteland]

Just came back from GP Strasbourg, where i skipped the limited-tournament and grinded the 6-rounds-legacy-tournaments (+ one 8man 3 round-tournament)
-> went 15:0 (6:0, 3:0, 6:0) for 15 displays Khans of Tarkir, which i splitted with friend. Great deck i have to say, credits for the board (and the 4. flickerwisp) completely for Bahra! Too tired to write a detailed report but still i wanted to share my list.

"Tod durch Steuern"

10x plains
2x flagstones of trokair
3x karakas
4x wasteland
4x rishadan port

4x mother of runes
4x stoneforge mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x phyrexian revoker
4x flickerwisp
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
2x aven mindcensor (are in my opinion MD still better than containment priests, due to the anti-synergie with aether vial)
1x Mangara of Corondor
2x serra avenger

4x swords to plowshares
4x aether vial
1x umezawa's jitte
1x sword of fire and ice
1x batterskull

SB:
3x ethersworn canonist
2x containment priest
2x enlightened Tutor
1x circle of protection: red
1x absolute law
2x sunlance
1x manriki-gusari
1x cataclysm
1x rest in peace
1x ratchet bomb

Once more, BIG thanks Bahra, for putting up such a great sideboard-plan! (even if i still don't like the gutshots :-) )

Greetz from Germany,
Marius Hausmann

[Bahra]

Just came back from GP Strasbourg, where i skipped the limited-tournament and grinded the 6-rounds-legacy-tournaments (+ one 8man 3 round-tournament)
-> went 15:0 (6:0, 3:0, 6:0) for 15 displays Khans of Tarkir, which i splitted with friend. Great deck i have to say, credits for the board (and the 4. flickerwisp) completely for Bahra! Too tired to write a detailed report but still i wanted to share my list.

"Tod durch Steuern"

10x plains
2x flagstones of trokair
3x karakas
4x wasteland
4x rishadan port

4x mother of runes
4x stoneforge mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x phyrexian revoker
4x flickerwisp
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
2x aven mindcensor (are in my opinion MD still better than containment priests, due to the anti-synergie with aether vial)
1x Mangara of Corondor
2x serra avenger

4x swords to plowshares
4x aether vial
1x umezawa's jitte
1x sword of fire and ice
1x batterskull

SB:
3x ethersworn canonist
2x containment priest
2x enlightened Tutor
1x circle of protection: red
1x absolute law
2x sunlance
1x manriki-gusari
1x cataclysm
1x rest in peace
1x ratchet bomb

Once more, BIG thanks Bahra, for putting up such a great sideboard-plan! (even if i still don't like the gutshots :-) )

Greetz from Germany,
Marius Hausmann


Great to hear that you did well Marius! That's a very impressive record!

[cab0747]

Bahra (or anyone else playing them MD),

How has the 1-of containment priest been for you? It still looks a little odd to me. I haven't had a chance to test as I do not play a ton of Legacy. Just wondering where my 75 should be.

Thank you!

[BearsandSquires]

The main deck priest was fine for the gp, but overall was pretty meh. Is probably turning into a mangara to help with the resurgence of uwr stone blade

[H]

While I've played this deck for over a year, I'm still not sure about sideboarding Ratchet Bomb. I've run it before, but it always felt awkward and I think most of that is me trying to use it in the wrong match-ups or boarding it in for the wrong things. I'm probably missing something obvious though.

If you run one, what do you bring it in against? What do you often take out for it?

Thanks for any clarification you can offer me.

[Barbed Blightning]

While I've played this deck for over a year, I'm still not sure about sideboarding Ratchet Bomb. I've run it before, but it always felt awkward and I think most of that is me trying to use it in the wrong match-ups or boarding it in for the wrong things. I'm probably missing something obvious though.

If you run one, what do you bring it in against? What do you often take out for it?

Thanks for any clarification you can offer me.

I, too, have failed to see the allure of RB, but I think it is simply a catch-all for those running the Enlightened Tutor board.

I think the effect is decent, especially at zero for UR Delver (YP tokens, flipped delvers), Miracles and Chalice decks. Setting it to one is tricky but worth it vs Elves or the mirror

[Wasteland]

I bring it in as a 1of against any delver-deck, together with absolute law against UR...
Against miracle you have 4 swords to board out - i bring in 1 cataclysm, 1 ratchet bomb and 2 ethersworn canonist (which is better then you might think against snapcaster or even eot brainstorm into miracle-spell)
It's just a quite flexible card - as you said best on 0 -, and can be used too against such shitty piles like belcher, against them you have with the 2 tutors 3 outs against empty-Tokens...
By the way, a quite decent bonus against chalice-decks is, that you can take out the mox diamond(s) too. (Though i have to admit that in grindy games flickerwisp gets this job done too very well :-) )
Even in the mirror i would bring it in - even if you have sometimes to destroy one of your own guys it maybe will steal some games (in any case its better then leaving the Thalias MD after boarding...)
Greetz,
Marius

[H]

Ok, that's kind of what I was thinking it was for. I just have never drawn it in those situations. I'll probably still run it. Thanks guys.

[tescrin]

I, too, have failed to see the allure of RB, but I think it is simply a catch-all for those running the Enlightened Tutor board.

I think the effect is decent, especially at zero for UR Delver (YP tokens, flipped delvers), Miracles and Chalice decks. Setting it to one is tricky but worth it vs Elves or the mirror

(I'm more of a powder keg guy myself, for Affinity/Manlands but) it's a good out to Goblins (the storm kind) since it's a 2-mana tutorable answer to the best route to victory they can take. Belcher as mentioned and random fair decks where a removal spell may be better than a dude.

[mikeshimoji]

Forgive me to change the topic all of a sudden, but I'm really debating on my final flex slots. I see sometimes that people run a singleton council's judgement main deck, would people recommend that? My meta is quite a bit midrange and fair. There are delivers but they are not dominant by any means. Or do we just want to keep with creatures? I have Mangara main, but am wondering about two slots.

[tescrin]

Forgive me to change the topic all of a sudden, but I'm really debating on my final flex slots. I see sometimes that people run a singleton council's judgement main deck, would people recommend that? My meta is quite a bit midrange and fair. There are delivers but they are not dominant by any means. Or do we just want to keep with creatures? I have Mangara main, but am wondering about two slots.

From an outsider's perspective:
Mangara >>> CJ

I'm not big on Mangara; but CJ can't be vialed, can't build a lock, is tax'd by Thalia and hits a total of what... 3 more permanents in *legacy*? (Prog, Mom targets, TNN. Mangara can just hit a sword giving Pro-White if you're dealing with that)

I just think TNN is so answerable via SoFaI and board state that CJ is a hedge against basically nothing while weakening the main deck. Myself, I'd forgo both for a beater; but if you're just looking for a Vindicate Mangara is much much more abusable (and can hit lands.. which is neat.)

[apple713]

I'm trying to improve my matchup against D&T for a rouge deck I'm working on. It's green with splash white. almost a maverick type deck.

Are there anything in those colors that really give this deck trouble?
What are the deck's top 3 bad matchups?

What i've got so far against it are.. are they even good against it?

pithing needle
tower of the magistrate
quasali pridemage
reclamation sage.

[mikeshimoji]

Went to the tourney. 147 man. I did try out the maindeck cj. It wasn't terrible, but as said and assumed by many, it didn't shine either. I think I'll relegate it to sideboard.

Went 3-4-1, lost against jund twice, gobs once and mirror. I beat uwr delver/stoneblade three times lol. Guess our deck beats those!

I think I might bring back mirran crusader or something! Jund is just a beating. And I don't even know how to beat gobs. Do we side in cataclysm??

Sorry for rambling. I just need some pointers. I know Mangara and cj is coming out. What should I add?

[Barbed Blightning]

Went to the tourney. 147 man. I did try out the maindeck cj. It wasn't terrible, but as said and assumed by many, it didn't shine either. I think I'll relegate it to sideboard.

Went 3-4-1, lost against jund twice, gobs once and mirror. I beat uwr delver/stoneblade three times lol. Guess our deck beats those!

I think I might bring back mirran crusader or something! Jund is just a beating. And I don't even know how to beat gobs. Do we side in cataclysm??

Sorry for rambling. I just need some pointers. I know Mangara and cj is coming out. What should I add?

I wouldn't hastily cut Mangara. Judgment, yes, definitely back in the board. Mangara was probably why you destroyed Blade so much.

Goblins is actually our best matchup beyond Delver. You basically drop Avenger/Brimaz, equipment and swing. All three equipment are powerhouses. Don't bother with the mana denial, nor Thalia (unless you have no other creatures to drop). Revoker is best on Vial, Krenko or Gempalm.

Boarding (based off my list):
-4 Thalia
-2 Mangara
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Canonist
+2 Gut Shot


I'd need to see your list to give better advice, especially with boarding.

[BearsandSquires]

Went 6-3 at scg open portland. 2 losses from absurd draws by opponents and then a loss to feline on hightide. Overall liked the list and might make a few changes for the invitational next week.

[Magic_Shortbus9]

Went 6-3 at scg open portland. 2 losses from absurd draws by opponents and then a loss to feline on hightide. Overall liked the list and might make a few changes for the invitational next week.
Great job. Is your lIst pretty stock?

[BearsandSquires]

Great job. Is your lIst pretty stock?
It was what bahra ran at the scg and gp except for a second brimaz over the main containment priest and a second council's judgement over the second gut shot.

[Magic_Shortbus9]

It was what bahra ran at the scg and gp except for a second brimaz over the main containment priest and a second council's judgement over the second gut shot.
Thanks

[mikeshimoji]

So wild question that might have been addressed. Since Carsten Kotter was wondering in his article why d and t didn't run green for teeg, I was doing some testing and thought, why not add a powerful creature that has utility.

I have been adding knight of the reliquary x 3 in the flex spots, pulling out Brimaz, Mangara with some success.


I know mana base becomes "weaker" etc but hear me out.

Knight is often 4/4 or higher beating the bolt test, thin our deck, fetch wasteland making it a virtual 8 of in our deck and overpowers any creatures. It can fetch Karakas, making it viable to drop to 2 and much much more.

Am I kidding myself? All other spots is usual d and t, with even 2 avenger still in there.

[ryscott85]

Has anyone experimented with religating batterskull to the sideboard? I don't know about you guys, but I almost always fetch sword or jitte, as unless I have an active mom, batter skull just doesn't seem worth it in a lot of matches; it is also horrible when you get stuck with it in your opening hand with no way to shuffle it.

Also, I know it's been discussed before and I know they are different decks, however; I was wondering how you guys felt about Maverick vs Death and Taxes in the current meta. Teeg seems really strong right now and splashing just doesn't seem worth it at the cost of the mana base...

[Luca Grease]

Has anyone experimented with religating batterskull to the sideboard? I don't know about you guys, but I almost always fetch sword or jitte, as unless I have an active mom, batter skull just doesn't seem worth it in a lot of matches; it is also horrible when you get stuck with it in your opening hand with no way to shuffle it.

Also, I know it's been discussed before and I know they are different decks, however; I was wondering how you guys felt about Maverick vs Death and Taxes in the current meta. Teeg seems really strong right now and splashing just doesn't seem worth it at the cost of the mana base...

Relegating batterskull to the board, or even cutting it completely, has and can be done. You don't get stuck with a dead card in your opener, but on the other hand 4 mystics with only 2 pieces of equipment means you will fail to search annoyingly often. Batterskull is usually the best piece of equipment in Abrupt Decay matches, which are admittedly not as common anymore, but it can still provide good value with mom or when you have multiple mystics (especially when surprise vialing in a second one, fetching batterskull, and deploying it with the one already on the battlefield). All in all I wouldn't cut it, but it's certainly a viable option.

Regarding the Maverick vs DnT debate, it's funny you mention it cause I've just been pondering this for the last couple of days. The main reason is, as you've said, Gaddock Teeg, which is incredibly positioned right now, with miracles + treasure cruise being everywhere (not to mention the fact that it shores up one of our weaker pre-board matchups in elves). However, I've come to a very different conclusion from yours: Teeg actually fits DnT better than Maverick.
The main reason is of course that it shuts down Green Sun's Zenith. Because of this, it was traditionally played as a 1-of (or even a sideboard card against Miracles and combo) in Maverick. However, more and more lists are now playing two copies because of how good it is at the moment. Couple that with the fact that you'll want to leave it in against a wider range of decks, and you're likely to experience some serious self-handicapping while running it along GSZ. Contrast that with Aether Vial and multiple copies of Karakas, which will synergize perfetctly with the legendary kithkin. Vial also adds a neat extra dimension when playing it against miracles: wait for them to reveal their terminus/entreat, and vial it in with the miracle trigger on the stack: they are now stuck with those cards in hand, which is the last place they want them to be.
Finally, as for the mana-base cost involved in splashing, I think the risk right now is minimal. You only need to run 1-2 more non-basic, non-fetchlands, so the increased vulnerability to wasteland is almost negligible, especially considering how little play that card is seeing at the moment. Blood Moon is also a lot less prevalent, and Stifle has all but disappeared from the meta. Truly, the cost of splashing in DnT has never been lower than this, nor the potential reward higher. 4 white fetches, 2 savannas, and 1 horizon canopy, along with your 4 vials, should be sufficient to ensure that you'll be able to cast Teeg. Also, splashing for green opens up some really interesting sideboard options such as Choke or Sylvan Library (also incredible against Miracles).

There is, of course, more to the DnT vs Maverick debate than Teeg and the green splash: Deathrite Shaman, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay and Zealous Persecution are all very powerful cards, opening up venues of attack and defense not available to DnT, but they also come at a cost. DRS and KoTR mean you'll have to give up what is still an incredibly powerful sideboard card in Rest in Peace, and playing 3 colours means that you'll have to drop rishadan port, which is still a very potent and flexible card, especially in conjunction with Aether Vial. By the way, by swapping Vial for Zenith you will gain in consistency and avoid bad lategame topdecks, but you'll also be giving up one of the most powerful starts a fair deck can have in legacy.
Another thing worth considering is that while Maverick arguably has access to more uniformly powerful creatures in a vacuum, it also sports a much lower number of fliers, which might become a problem when dealing with Delver, TNN, or Blinkmoth Nexus.
A final point to be made in favor of Maverick is that, by being more diverse in its creature base and engine, it is inherently more resistant against certain hate cards: -1/-1 effects are not as devastating, Dread of Night isn't game over (although it's still nasty), and Null Rod doesn't shut down all of your powerful cards.


So all in all, I think both decks have their relative strenghts and weaknesses, but dismissing the idea of splashing for Teeg and some other minor goods in a DnT shell as not worth it is, in my opinion, a mistake.

[mikeshimoji]

Relegating batterskull to the board, or even cutting it completely, has and can be done. You don't get stuck with a dead card in your opener, but on the other hand 4 mystics with only 2 pieces of equipment means you will fail to search annoyingly often. Batterskull is usually the best piece of equipment in Abrupt Decay matches, which are admittedly not as common anymore, but it can still provide good value with mom or when you have multiple mystics (especially when surprise vialing in a second one, fetching batterskull, and deploying it with the one already on the battlefield). All in all I wouldn't cut it, but it's certainly a viable option.

Regarding the Maverick vs DnT debate, it's funny you mention it cause I've just been pondering this for the last couple of days. The main reason is, as you've said, Gaddock Teeg, which is incredibly positioned right now, with miracles + treasure cruise being everywhere (not to mention the fact that it shores up one of our weaker pre-board matchups in elves). However, I've come to a very different conclusion from yours: Teeg actually fits DnT better than Maverick.
The main reason is of course that it shuts down Green Sun's Zenith. Because of this, it was traditionally played as a 1-of (or even a sideboard card against Miracles and combo) in Maverick. However, more and more lists are now playing two copies because of how good it is at the moment. Couple that with the fact that you'll want to leave it in against a wider range of decks, and you're likely to experience some serious self-handicapping while running it along GSZ. Contrast that with Aether Vial and multiple copies of Karakas, which will synergize perfetctly with the legendary kithkin. Vial also adds a neat extra dimension when playing it against miracles: wait for them to reveal their terminus/entreat, and vial it in with the miracle trigger on the stack: they are now stuck with those cards in hand, which is the last place they want them to be.
Finally, as for the mana-base cost involved in splashing, I think the risk right now is minimal. You only need to run 1-2 more non-basic, non-fetchlands, so the increased vulnerability to wasteland is almost negligible, especially considering how little play that card is seeing at the moment. Blood Moon is also a lot less prevalent, and Stifle has all but disappeared from the meta. Truly, the cost of splashing in DnT has never been lower than this, nor the potential reward higher. 4 white fetches, 2 savannas, and 1 horizon canopy, along with your 4 vials, should be sufficient to ensure that you'll be able to cast Teeg. Also, splashing for green opens up some really interesting sideboard options such as Choke or Sylvan Library (also incredible against Miracles).

There is, of course, more to the DnT vs Maverick debate than Teeg and the green splash: Deathrite Shaman, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay and Zealous Persecution are all very powerful cards, opening up venues of attack and defense not available to DnT, but they also come at a cost. DRS and KoTR mean you'll have to give up what is still an incredibly powerful sideboard card in Rest in Peace, and playing 3 colours means that you'll have to drop rishadan port, which is still a very potent and flexible card, especially in conjunction with Aether Vial. By the way, by swapping Vial for Zenith you will gain in consistency and avoid bad lategame topdecks, but you'll also be giving up one of the most powerful starts a fair deck can have in legacy.
Another thing worth considering is that while Maverick arguably has access to more uniformly powerful creatures in a vacuum, it also sports a much lower number of fliers, which might become a problem when dealing with Delver, TNN, or Blinkmoth Nexus.
A final point to be made in favor of Maverick is that, by being more diverse in its creature base and engine, it is inherently more resistant against certain hate cards: -1/-1 effects are not as devastating, Dread of Night isn't game over (although it's still nasty), and Null Rod doesn't shut down all of your powerful cards.


So all in all, I think both decks have their relative strenghts and weaknesses, but dismissing the idea of splashing for Teeg and some other minor goods in a DnT shell as not worth it is, in my opinion, a mistake.

I completely agree with this. Just cause d and t is a white deck, doesn't mean it cannot host another color for a splash. My testing has revealed knight of the reliquary to be a house and can be done with minimal splashing. End of turn, vial in knight And untap for an active knight is intense. D and t is a prison deck, and having a power house that can beat is something that supplies the much needed body it lacked while still helping out with the prison aspect. Knight can fetch up wastelands, horizon for can tripping and even port if we want to lock down. Seems like much positives for minor negatives. Having three drops has always been viable, and it doesn't hurt that they are humans.

[ryscott85]

Relegating batterskull to the board, or even cutting it completely, has and can be done. You don't get stuck with a dead card in your opener, but on the other hand 4 mystics with only 2 pieces of equipment means you will fail to search annoyingly often. Batterskull is usually the best piece of equipment in Abrupt Decay matches, which are admittedly not as common anymore, but it can still provide good value with mom or when you have multiple mystics (especially when surprise vialing in a second one, fetching batterskull, and deploying it with the one already on the battlefield). All in all I wouldn't cut it, but it's certainly a viable option.

Regarding the Maverick vs DnT debate, it's funny you mention it cause I've just been pondering this for the last couple of days. The main reason is, as you've said, Gaddock Teeg, which is incredibly positioned right now, with miracles + treasure cruise being everywhere (not to mention the fact that it shores up one of our weaker pre-board matchups in elves). However, I've come to a very different conclusion from yours: Teeg actually fits DnT better than Maverick.
The main reason is of course that it shuts down Green Sun's Zenith. Because of this, it was traditionally played as a 1-of (or even a sideboard card against Miracles and combo) in Maverick. However, more and more lists are now playing two copies because of how good it is at the moment. Couple that with the fact that you'll want to leave it in against a wider range of decks, and you're likely to experience some serious self-handicapping while running it along GSZ. Contrast that with Aether Vial and multiple copies of Karakas, which will synergize perfetctly with the legendary kithkin. Vial also adds a neat extra dimension when playing it against miracles: wait for them to reveal their terminus/entreat, and vial it in with the miracle trigger on the stack: they are now stuck with those cards in hand, which is the last place they want them to be.
Finally, as for the mana-base cost involved in splashing, I think the risk right now is minimal. You only need to run 1-2 more non-basic, non-fetchlands, so the increased vulnerability to wasteland is almost negligible, especially considering how little play that card is seeing at the moment. Blood Moon is also a lot less prevalent, and Stifle has all but disappeared from the meta. Truly, the cost of splashing in DnT has never been lower than this, nor the potential reward higher. 4 white fetches, 2 savannas, and 1 horizon canopy, along with your 4 vials, should be sufficient to ensure that you'll be able to cast Teeg. Also, splashing for green opens up some really interesting sideboard options such as Choke or Sylvan Library (also incredible against Miracles).

There is, of course, more to the DnT vs Maverick debate than Teeg and the green splash: Deathrite Shaman, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay and Zealous Persecution are all very powerful cards, opening up venues of attack and defense not available to DnT, but they also come at a cost. DRS and KoTR mean you'll have to give up what is still an incredibly powerful sideboard card in Rest in Peace, and playing 3 colours means that you'll have to drop rishadan port, which is still a very potent and flexible card, especially in conjunction with Aether Vial. By the way, by swapping Vial for Zenith you will gain in consistency and avoid bad lategame topdecks, but you'll also be giving up one of the most powerful starts a fair deck can have in legacy.
Another thing worth considering is that while Maverick arguably has access to more uniformly powerful creatures in a vacuum, it also sports a much lower number of fliers, which might become a problem when dealing with Delver, TNN, or Blinkmoth Nexus.
A final point to be made in favor of Maverick is that, by being more diverse in its creature base and engine, it is inherently more resistant against certain hate cards: -1/-1 effects are not as devastating, Dread of Night isn't game over (although it's still nasty), and Null Rod doesn't shut down all of your powerful cards.


So all in all, I think both decks have their relative strenghts and weaknesses, but dismissing the idea of splashing for Teeg and some other minor goods in a DnT shell as not worth it is, in my opinion, a mistake.


Thank you for such an insightful reply!

Abrupt decay can still be problematic if they deal with the germ token and you do not have a SFM or enough mana to return/hard cast the batterskull. Also, most decks only play two equipment, (jitte and batterskull) and they tend to have way fewer creatures to equip then us, aka stone blade, UWR Delver, etc.. although if two equipment is the concern, maybe sword of light and shadow would be a good fit for a third choice, due to being able to recast SOL, MOM or any other integral creature for that specific match?

Regarding the D&T vs. Maverick idea, I have put some thought into things as well... despite the generic nature of my post. While I agree that wasteland and stifle are at an all time low right now, my concern regarding the D& T mana base was more with the deck itself. I am by no means an expert with the deck, however; (ignoring the obvious issue of opposing wastelands, in conjunction with having multiple Karakas in your opening hand) with four of each of the ports and wasteland, in conjunction with cavern of souls, I sometimes find it hard to even cast STP at one white mana relatively early in a game. Now considering a white and a green mana cost, it does seem at least semi-problematic to cast consistently, assuming we see it throughout the game with no GSZ to acquire it regularly… too bad it is not an enchantment creature. I also like the flexibility of Maverick with the abrupt decays, which would help with opposing insectile and equipment issues. I really do not know which is the correct choice for the current meta, but I think it's great that we can bounce ideas off of one another and play test things to see if we can come to a conclusion. A billion heads are definitely better then one :).. ok maybe not a billion, but however many D&T players there are out there who access this site. Also, i'd like to say thanks to all of the dedicated players who put in a crazy amount of hours play testing, (uh hum BAHRA) so that countless others can reap the rewards of a finely tuned machine!

[Luca Grease]

Thank you for such an insightful reply!

Now considering a white and a green mana cost, it does seem at least semi-problematic to cast consistently, assuming we see it throughout the game with no GSZ to acquire it regularly… too bad it is not an enchantment creature.

Just a quick comment regarding the mana issues: I've only just begun testing with it, but others have reported that with 4 wastelands, 4 ports, 4 fetches, 2 savannahs, 1 canopy, 3 karakas and 5 plains as a mana base, being able to cast teeg has not been an issue for them. I think the cavern needs to go, though, as Teeg doesn't share a creature type with the rest of the deck.

EDIT: Being able to Abrupt Decay Jitte is definitely a big plus in Maverick's favor, no question about that. However, once you start playing both decay and stp your number of noncreature spells rises significantly, making Thalia a little more symmetrical (decay at 3 mana is no longer that impressive). It also means you carry a litte extra dead weight in most combo matchups. Decisions, decisions...

[raikenxy]

Just a quick comment regarding the mana issues: I've only just begun testing with it, but others have reported that with 4 wastelands, 4 ports, 4 fetches, 2 savannahs, 1 canopy, 3 karakas and 5 plains as a mana base, being able to cast teeg has not been an issue for them. I think the cavern needs to go, though, as Teeg doesn't share a creature type with the rest of the deck.

EDIT: Being able to Abrupt Decay Jitte is definitely a big plus in Maverick's favor, no question about that. However, once you start playing both decay and stp your number of noncreature spells rises significantly, making Thalia a little more symmetrical (decay at 3 mana is no longer that impressive). It also means you carry a litte extra dead weight in most combo matchups. Decisions, decisions...

I'll make it easy for everyone... The splash is not worth it. The deck already does what gaddock teeg does in preventing decks from playing certain spells. worsening the mana base to play nonbos like abrupt decay along with Thalia is not neccessry in the current field. The deck is already finely tuned for te current meta and has great matchups against both delver and miracles and the peeve last combo decks outside of elves (preboard). Blood moon and price of progress are cards that exist in the meta and stifle has not completely gone away ... There's no reason to give other decks free wins against us just to add cards to the deck that aren't necessary.

[mikeshimoji]

I'll make it easy for everyone... The splash is not worth it. The deck already does what gaddock teeg does in preventing decks from playing certain spells. worsening the mana base to play nonbos like abrupt decay along with Thalia is not neccessry in the current field. The deck is already finely tuned for te current meta and has great matchups against both delver and miracles and the peeve last combo decks outside of elves (preboard). Blood moon and price of progress are cards that exist in the meta and stifle has not completely gone away ... There's no reason to give other decks free wins against us just to add cards to the deck that aren't necessary.

Well, Carsten Kotter in "Ten Cards You Should Be Playing in Legacy" kind of disagrees with you. He says that he is surprised most d and t are not running it with a splash. He thinks it's worth it, I think it is worth giving it a shot for sure. My testing has given me some hope.

[raikenxy]

Well, Carsten Kotter in "Ten Cards You Should Be Playing in Legacy" kind of disagrees with you. He says that he is surprised most d and t are not running it with a splash. He thinks it's worth it, I think it is worth giving it a shot for sure. My testing has given me some hope.

Because death and taxes players know better lol, as they actually play the deck. You'll find with enough reps you'll come to the same conclusion as everyone else in the forum. Go back and read from the original post when the first ideas of splashes were brought up... These ideas are not new. They've been thoroughly vetted before and the mono white build still stands as the most optimized and tuned list of death and taxes . Deviating from it leads you down to playing a maverick esque build or junk control which opens u up to the weaknesses of those archetypes which the mono white build does not succumb too.

[mikeshimoji]

Because death and taxes players know better lol, as they actually play the deck. You'll find with enough reps you'll come to the same conclusion as everyone else in the forum. Go back and read from the original post when the first ideas of splashes were brought up... These ideas are not new. They've been thoroughly vetted before and the mono white build still stands as the most optimized and tuned list of death and taxes . Deviating from it leads you down to playing a maverick esque build or junk control which opens u up to the weaknesses of those archetypes which the mono white build does not succumb too.

Alright. Though, mono white has plenty of weaknesses in its one toughness creatures. I guess we will agree to disagree for now and I'll let you know. And yes, I have read the discussions.

[Luca Grease]

I'll make it easy for everyone... The splash is not worth it. The deck already does what gaddock teeg does in preventing decks from playing certain spells. worsening the mana base to play nonbos like abrupt decay along with Thalia is not neccessry in the current field. The deck is already finely tuned for te current meta and has great matchups against both delver and miracles and the peeve last combo decks outside of elves (preboard). Blood moon and price of progress are cards that exist in the meta and stifle has not completely gone away ... There's no reason to give other decks free wins against us just to add cards to the deck that aren't necessary.

Presenting your opinion as fact does not make it such. Yes, the general consensus was that the monowhite version was the best one, but that was months ago. Things change as new cards get printed and the meta adjusts. Teeg offers a very powerful new tool, and, while some of the monowhite cards have overlapping functionality with it, none is quite as good in the current meta. Truly, I've already discussed it at lenght in my previous post.

People will always be resistant to change. We love having stable certainties, and if X has proven to be the right choice in the past, we are loathe to consider reasons why it might not be so anymore.

[nevilshute]

Presenting your opinion as fact does not make it such. Yes, the general consensus was that the monowhite version was the best one, but that was months ago. Things change as new cards get printed and the meta adjusts. Teeg offers a very powerful new tool, and, while some of the monowhite cards have overlapping functionality with it, none is quite as good in the current meta. Truly, I've already discussed it at lenght in my previous post.

People will always be resistant to change. We love having stable certainties, and if X has proven to be the right choice in the past, we are loathe to consider reasons why it might not be so anymore.

:really:

How is Teeg a new tool? People have been tinkering with green and black splashes for litterally years. So far, consensus still seems to be that the mono white version is superior. That said, hats off for people experimenting continually.

[Luca Grease]

:really:

How is Teeg a new tool? People have been tinkering with green and black splashes for litterally years. So far, consensus still seems to be that the mono white version is superior. That said, hats off for people experimenting continually.

"new" as in "not available in mono-white DnT". Also its broader usefulness is something recent that came about with new printings.

[raikenxy]

"new" as in "not available in mono-white DnT". Also its broader usefulness is something recent that came about with new printings.

If these new printings your rendering too are dig through time and treasure cruise then teeg still isn't worth it. TC is the only card in delver decks that teeg hits ... The only one. That's 4 cards at maximum. If your keeping teeg in to combat that card against an archetype death and taxes preys upon then ur mis sideboarding. dtt doesn't see anywhere near as much play as TC for me to consider running teeg when Thalia makes dig through time cost an additional mana/delve anyway.

So why would we need that card ? For miracles ? Even with teeg and GSz maverick as a deck got pushed to extinction because of the popularity of miracles and terminus which eat that deck alive, regardless of the silver bullet teeg which still gets countered by cb, force, and dies to swords just like every other targetable creature.

Teeg isn't necessary, the power and ability of dnt versus the archetypes mentioned above comes from it's ability to interact on the stack via aether vial which is not run in maverick (excluding vial maverick which is another archetype where I feel your brewing will lead you too)

[Barbed Blightning]

If these new printings your rendering too are dig through time and treasure cruise then teeg still isn't worth it. TC is the only card in delver decks that teeg hits ... The only one.
Uhhh... Force of Will?

Also, Dig and Cruise can both bury us hard. Teeg is more like Revoker than Thalia in this respect; he hits a narrow, yet otherwise problematic, selection of popular cards.

[raikenxy]

Uhhh... Force of Will?

Also, Dig and Cruise can both bury us hard. Teeg is more like Revoker than Thalia in this respect; he hits a narrow, yet otherwise problematic, selection of popular cards.

Touché on the fact check. I did forget to mention force, I'm humbled and off my apologies. I will however say force of will is such a bad card against dnt I wouldn't even consider it as something that needs to be addressed. If an opponent doesn't force of will an Aether vial the card is dead, and if they don't force of will teeg as it's played it's also dead. I'd rather stick to game plan of making the cards they draw as unplayable as possible then add unnecessary cards at the expense of the decks core functionality: a sum of all parts victory.

[Luca Grease]

We can sit and come up with abstract reasons why certain cards and deckbuilding choices might or might not be worth it, but all that speculation means very little until you put it to the test. I was a firm believer in mono-white DnT, but testing lately has convinced me that a change is needed to keep up. The truth is, Treasure Cruise is, unsurprisingly, a problem for this deck. Matchups that used to be very favorable are no longer such when the opponent can draw 3 every 3 or 4 turns. Blue decks can simply exhaust their resources by trading 1-for-1, or even 1-for-2, and then refuel, burying whatever we have left in a relentless onslaught of removal spells and threats. Even Force of Will actually becomes pretty good against DnT when you have access to multiple ancestral recalls. A well-timed Teeg can turn the situation against them: let them deplete their hand to get rid of mom, Thalia and SFM, then stick a teeg and watch their lategame plan crumble...
However, TC decks are not the real reason why I want to be splashing for Teeg right now: if that was the case, I'd just run 4 Spirits of the Labyrinth in the maindeck. Rather, it is the decks that are picking up in popularity to combat treasure cruise that make Teeg such a strong card right now, namely Miracles and combo. Storm and Elves are pretty much cold to it, but Miracles is probably the ripest target. Your argument that Teeg isn't that good against Miracles because Maverick traditionally had a bad matchup against it is flawed for more reasons than I care to list. DnT is not Maverick: we run Aether Vial, more mana denial, Phyrexian Revoker, and sometimes Mangara of Corondor (I refuse to drop the singleton copy from my mainboard). Also, Spirit of the Labyrinth wasn't around back then, and that card is pretty bad for Miracles. Our matchup against that deck is already pretty decent, but it becomes very favorable with Teeg. Their only real out to it (except from the occasional 1-of council's judgement) is Swords to Plowshares, and we have Mother of Runes and Karakas to negate that, not to mention that they'll often be forced to use it on another creature beforehand.
If you'd ever tested seriously against Miracles you'd know that the CB lock, while occasionally locking us out of games, is not very high on the list of our worries in that matchup, due to Aether Vial and Phyrexian Revoker (and, to a lesser extent, Flickerwisp). In fact, opponents will often side their CBs out against us.
It's stuff like Terminus, Jace, Entreat, Supreme Verdict, and Dig Through Time that they'll rely on against us, and Teeg effectively invalidates all of their bombs against us.
I've just tested against Miracles yesterday and I can assure you Teeg simply wins a lot of games against them, either by straight out locking them out or by forcing them to spend a lot of time and resources in getting rid of it (more than once, my opponent had to waste several turns digging for 2 copies of StP when I had Teeg+Karakas up). As an icing on the cake, the small green splash allows you to run sideboard cards that are powerhouses in themselves against Miracles, such as Sylvan Library or Choke.

If I had to stick with monowhite, I'd probably run 4 Spirits of the Labyrinth in the maindeck, as I feel that we absolutely need a consistent answer to Treasure Cruise, but a 2/2 split with Teeg seems like a much more attractive and all-around powerful alternative right now. Having something that hoses the most popular control and combo decks while still stopping Treasure Cruise just seems too good to pass up. Also, being a legendary 2/2 is pretty big in a world of forked bolts and elemental tokens...

EDIT: vial Maverick is something I have considered, but I still find myself liking 95% of the DnT shell very much. I just don't see the need for cards like Weathered Wayfarer right now (although, to be fair, Sylvan Safekeeper would probably come in pretty handy in the current meta).

[Barbed Blightning]

Touché on the fact check. I did forget to mention force, I'm humbled and off my apologies. I will however say force of will is such a bad card against dnt I wouldn't even consider it as something that needs to be addressed. If an opponent doesn't force of will an Aether vial the card is dead, and if they don't force of will teeg as it's played it's also dead. I'd rather stick to game plan of making the cards they draw as unplayable as possible then add unnecessary cards at the expense of the decks core functionality: a sum of all parts victory.

I like a good slapfight as much as any Sourcer, but I'll keep it brief: Force is still good at hitting critical spells--Swords especially. Being able to more or less guarantee that midgame removal is actually quite potent in the tempo matchup. I'm obviously not saying the Teeg is needed for that, or that stopping FoW is the reason to run him; it's just a secondary benefit of the card.

Other experienced pilots like SwordstoTimeshares advocate a light splash into Teeg because he helps in a vast number of difficult or poor matchups. Miracles, Elves, Storm, and Stoneblade each have their fair share of cards that Teeg shuts off, most of which are game-enders; this isn't something to dismiss so casually. The proposed manabase (4 fetch, 2 Savannah, 1 Canopy) doesn't hurt the deck all that much and given that we are best equipped to protect and play Teeg (Vial/Karakas, Mom, Sword of F&I, etc) of any other deck in Legacy (save for maybe Vial Mav, thanks for reminding me Luca) I think he merits testing. If I could justify the $200+ for fetches and Savannahs I would very much be on the Teeg plan.

This isn't to discount or say that Mono White is somehow inferior; it isn't. Teeg just opens up possibilities for the deck.

[Technicolor Mage]

I get the sense that some people think if we splash green that were just playing Maverick. This can't be further from the case. The splash is literally just a splash, not a complete overhaul of the deck. The mana base is slightly weaker but I feel this is offset by the reduction of Wastelands in the current meta. It's a calculated risk which I think works for DnT at this time, I can't say it will always be the case.

I know Teeg is considered by some to be "narrow" or even redundant since other cards help to do "similar" things in our deck, but I think it's a great option for fighting Treasure Cruise which is the formats darling (much the way TNN was last year). It's true hate for Treasure Cruise, let's not kid ourselves here. However, by hating out on one of the most played cards in the format, you also get to shut down win cons of other decks. All the sudden this "narrow" card doesn't appear to be all that narrow anymore.

Personally, despite Death and Taxes success the past couple of years, I feel this deck needs to continuously be looking for viable cards to test in order for the deck to remain ahead of the pack.

I think the splash is meta dependent so the obligatory YMMV is appropriate here, but if there was ever a good time to splash, that time is now.

[Luca Grease]

I get the sense that some people think if we splash green that were just playing Maverick

This x1000. Because the consensus has been for so long that DnT is better off as mono-white, and because there's a GW deck that utilizes some of the same cards, people have been conditioned to snap out "you might as well play maverick" any time splashing green is discussed. A lot of the "arguments" I read against it just look like post-hoc rationalizations people come up with because they are too lazy to seriously (re)consider the idea in light of the new legacy landscape. Most of it amounts either to "DnT already fights deck x this way, we don't need other tools, no matter how powerful and broad they are", or "matchup y is just hopeless anyway, no point in trying to fix it at the expense of other matchups (even though the tool you're suggesting does not actually make other matchups worse).

Once people come to a definitive decision (mono-white is the way to go), they really don't like having to re-evaluate constantly in the light of changing conditions, but this is a necessary process if we want to stay on top. Legacy has been experiencing massive changes in the last few years, and every time, DnT has had to adapt. First it was DRS and Abrupt Decay, then True-name Nemesis. In both cases, while the core of the deck remained intact, certain cards were trimmed down or cut altogether and new ones introduced (Mirran Crusader, Aven Mindcensor), or old ones dusted off (Serra Avenger, SoFI). As a general rule, "new" cards take quite a bit longer to gain mainstream acceptance than old "veterans" that proved their worth in the past.
Now, it's time to adapt to Treasure Cruise: the way the meta is shifting, splashing for Teeg looks really promising to me, but, if that's not your cup of tea, you better find some alternative. Run 4 Sotl, maindeck a singleton RiP along a tutor package, whatever. But adapt you must.

[raikenxy]

This x1000. Because the consensus has been for so long that DnT is better off as mono-white, and because there's a GW deck that utilizes some of the same cards, people have been conditioned to snap out "you might as well play maverick" any time splashing green is discussed. A lot of the "arguments" I read against it just look like post-hoc rationalizations people come up with because they are too lazy to seriously (re)consider the idea in light of the new legacy landscape. Most of it amounts either to "DnT already fights deck x this way, we don't need other tools, no matter how powerful and broad they are", or "matchup y is just hopeless anyway, no point in trying to fix it at the expense of other matchups (even though the tool you're suggesting does not actually make other matchups worse).

Once people come to a definitive decision (mono-white is the way to go), they really don't like having to re-evaluate constantly in the light of changing conditions, but this is a necessary process if we want to stay on top. Legacy has been experiencing massive changes in the last few years, and every time, DnT has had to adapt. First it was DRS and Abrupt Decay, then True-name Nemesis. In both cases, while the core of the deck remained intact, certain cards were trimmed down or cut altogether and new ones introduced (Mirran Crusader, Aven Mindcensor), or old ones dusted off (Serra Avenger, SoFI). As a general rule, "new" cards take quite a bit longer to gain mainstream acceptance than old "veterans" that proved their worth in the past.
Now, it's time to adapt to Treasure Cruise: the way the meta is shifting, splashing for Teeg looks really promising to me, but, if that's not your cup of tea, you better find some alternative. Run 4 Sotl, maindeck a singleton RiP along a tutor package, whatever. But adapt you must.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the definitive decision was come to through testing ? You assume people who prefer the mono white list are too lazy to test the green, or too lazy to test match ups as you've more then once done. I'm not going to add fuel to the fire, and I don't mean to be confrontational but I disagree with you completely. I've played this deck for years. I've experimented with splashes from black to green and it's not necessary. Ur delver with cruise is still a 90/10 match up in our favor due to the high density threats we run that they don't have enough answers to deal with. Specifically Sotl, stoneforge, Thalia, and mother of runes. Miracles will always be a match up that is play skill dependent, but if you land an Aether vial and are girly confident you'll prlly win that game with or without teeg. But please don't insult people who disagree with you by calling them lazy. A lot of us have done our hw ;) and have tested the card you feel is so promising.

[Luca Grease]

No need to rustle your jimmies pal, I hardly insulted anyone. If you're 90/10 against ur more power to you, but you'll forgive me if I consider that claim to be hurting your credibility. Peace out.

[L-Luck]

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the definitive decision was come to through testing ? You assume people who prefer the mono white list are too lazy to test the green, or too lazy to test match ups as you've more then once done. I'm not going to add fuel to the fire, and I don't mean to be confrontational but I disagree with you completely. I've played this deck for years. I've experimented with splashes from black to green and it's not necessary. Ur delver with cruise is still a 90/10 match up in our favor due to the high density threats we run that they don't have enough answers to deal with. Specifically Sotl, stoneforge, Thalia, and mother of runes. Miracles will always be a match up that is play skill dependent, but if you land an Aether vial and are girly confident you'll prlly win that game with or without teeg. But please don't insult people who disagree with you by calling them lazy. A lot of us have done our hw ;) and have tested the card you feel is so promising.

Claiming matchups being 90/10 is so obviously wrong that it makes every other point of your statement at least questionable.

[index]

hey guys, is there some quick sideboarding guide for death and taxes to read ? I couldn't find one...

[from Cairo]

I feel this deck needs to continuously be looking for viable cards to test in order for the deck to remain ahead of the pack.

I think the splash is meta dependent so the obligatory YMMV is appropriate here, but if there was ever a good time to splash, that time is now.

This is definitely the take away.

I've been really happy with the light Green splash for the past couple months.

5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 Savannah
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Mangara of Condor
1 Mirran Crusader

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest In Peace
2 Council's Judgment
1 Gut Shot
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Containment Preist
1 Absolute Law
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura Shards

[Luca Grease]

1 Aura Shards

OMG, THANK YOU for mentioning this awesome piece of tech! I actually have one sitting in one of my old binders but it probably wouldn't have occurred to me unless I was browsing through it for some reason... Vialing in a creature in response to an attack with a jitte is like a wet dream... Which matchups would you bring this in? Stoneblade, Miracles and Shardless seem like the obvious answers (along fringe stuff like Painter, Tezzerator, Enchantress, etc), but a lot of other decks are trying to fight us with stuff like pithing needle, sulfuric vortex, null rod, and Engineered Plague, so I wonder if it's worth bringing in more often...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

When we're at old techs: is Longbow Archer good against Delver decks?

[Luca Grease]

When we're at old techs: is Longbow Archer good against Delver decks?

Good against the creature Delver of Secrets? Sure, it is.
Good against Delver decks? Not so much. We just need more impactful cards.

As much as I'd like to go old school with it, Longbow Archer is just too narrow/underpowered for the maindeck, and we have more impactful cards to put in our sideboard. Just my 2 cents.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

i'm afraid you're right. It stops Delver the creature but it does very little against Delver the deck.

[from Cairo]

OMG, THANK YOU for mentioning this awesome piece of tech! I actually have one sitting in one of my old binders but it probably wouldn't have occurred to me unless I was browsing through it for some reason... Vialing in a creature in response to an attack with a jitte is like a wet dream... Which matchups would you bring this in? Stoneblade, Miracles and Shardless seem like the obvious answers (along fringe stuff like Painter, Tezzerator, Enchantress, etc), but a lot of other decks are trying to fight us with stuff like pithing needle, sulfuric vortex, null rod, and Engineered Plague, so I wonder if it's worth bringing in more often...

I mostly am using it against Stoneforge Mystic decks. It is very good in the mirror - targeting Equipment, Revokers, Spirit of the Lab, and Aether Vial. As you mention there are a ton of fringe match ups, some where it's worth boarding the ETutor in with it. You mentioned the big ones (Miracles, Shardless, Tezz, Painter) but also - MUD or Affinity.

I usually don't bring Aura Shards in unless I'm fairly sure there are 3+ targets that matter - Equipment, Sylvan Library, Counterbalance, Phyrexian Revoker and combo kills (Painter+Grind, Thopter+Sword). I'm running the 2x Council's Judgment as my catch all removal to board against something like BUG Delver that might have a Null Rod - just so it could kill a Planeswalker or Creature if Null Rod wasn't a factor.

[Luca Grease]

I usually don't bring Aura Shards in unless I'm fairly sure there are 3+ targets that matter - Equipment, Sylvan Library, Counterbalance, Phyrexian Revoker and combo kills (Painter+Grind, Thopter+Sword). I'm running the 2x Council's Judgment as my catch all removal to board against something like BUG Delver that might have a Null Rod - just so it could kill a Planeswalker or Creature if Null Rod wasn't a factor.

Yes, after I got over my initial enthusiasm and did some thinking I realized there's only a handful of top tier decks Aura Shards is worth bringing in against. The mirror is probably the most prominent one. Most SFM decks are only running 2 artifacts and Miracles are often siding CB out against us. Council's Judgement is obviously better when the opponent only has a couple of targets in their deck. Still, against the right decks that card is devastating, and the meta in local tournaments is always a lot more varied than what SCG top8s would suggest. I guess I will test and see...

[from Cairo]

Yea in an open meta I've found it to be a good piece of utility. In the past DnT ETutor boards have run Serenity and in this archetype Aura Shards is considerably better. In regards to Stoneblade usually only having 2ish Artifacts I completely agree, but with one of them being Umezawa's Jitte and their 4 ways to find it and often TNN to carry it, I have found Aura Shards to be worth the slot in the match. As a non-Creature we can deploy Shards even against an active Jitte and any of our top decked 25ish guys Disenchant serve to Disenchant - in this case Shards maybe isn't too far off from a 3rd Council's Judgment, but it has the side benefits of bomby implications in some matches. So far it's been worth the slot in maybe the dozen events I've played with the list.

[Technicolor Mage]

This is definitely the take away.

I've been really happy with the light Green splash for the past couple months.

5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 Savannah
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Mangara of Condor
1 Mirran Crusader

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest In Peace
2 Council's Judgment
1 Gut Shot
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Containment Preist
1 Absolute Law
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura Shards

Nice tech on Aura Shards. I forgot about that card and the situational destruction is perfect. Niche, but crushes a handful of decks!

Here is my current list I am experimenting with


4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Serra Avenger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elbrus, the Binding Blade

5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath


1 Absolute Law
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Council's Judgment
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Sunlance
1 Sylvan Library


Sunlance or Gut shot, I have used both, going back to gut shot though because I think it's more versatile and i think our versatility is one of our strengths.
Library has been useful at times, but you really need to be sure that you need that card. Aura shards will be going in this slot for testing.
Aven Mindscensor flies and is another tool required in my meta. Results are mixed as one would expect for a singleton, feels like Magical Christmas land when it works though.
Elbrus, the Blinding Blade was just a pet card of mine. I tested it out and was surprised by the results. I think I just like the surprise on my opponents face when I SFM into Elbrus, it's been priceless. Yes, I have been stuck with it in my hand, yes it eats removal frequently, and yes, I have laid serious beats with it. It's about 33/33/33 ratio which for the most part, puts it in similar statistics as batterskull for me. I lose the life gain, it's hard to cast, but if it sticks, it's a two turn clock.

Now, before you tell me I have lost all my credibility let me say that I am not going to advocate using it because it's completely out in left field, but I have found it entertaining.

[Luca Grease]

Elbrus is hilarious, and it might even work pretty well if the opponent isn't expecting it. Sylvan library is sweet against certain decks, but due to the nonbo with SoTL, I've decided to replace it with Choke. Seriously, that card is as devastating as it gets, hits most of the field at the moment, and it fits into our denial plan, especially with rishadan port. It just seems to good to pass up. Another card that looks too good to pass up at the moment is a singleton Brimaz in the main, given that most removal is red-based and people are trying to clog the ground with tokens and Swiftspears, but I've noticed neither you nor Cairo are running it... what are your thoughts on that?

My mainboard looks very similar to yours, except I run 1 Brimaz instead of the 4th flickerwisp, and the 2nd Spirit instead of the 3rd Revoker. I feel like the cards somewhat overlap in functionality, but Spirit stops more cards in the current meta, and I like having 4 maindeck ways to stop TC. Also, multiple Revokers in g1 are really bad against certain decks.

EDIT: my sb currently looks like this

2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Absolute Law
1 CoP: Red (this might become Aura Shards or some other tech instead, since I'm hard pressed to find room for it even against U/R delver, essentially relegating it to just anti-burn tech)
1 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Council's Judgement

By the way, what do you guys side out against U/R Delver and U/W/R Stoneblade? I find myself having more cards to bring in than obvious side-outs. Especially against U/W/R, you know you want to bring in CJ, Choke, and probably Absolute Law, but what are you taking out exactly? Everything in the main seems to have its application, except perhaps Mirran Crusader and Batterskull. Also, Pithing Needle might be better than a Revoker here, being able to lockdown Jitte without dying to Plow or burn...

[from Cairo]

Elbrus is hilarious, and it might even work pretty well if the opponent isn't expecting it. Sylvan library is sweet against certain decks, but due to the nonbo with SoTL, I've decided to replace it with Choke. Seriously, that card is as devastating as it gets, hits most of the field at the moment, and it fits into our denial plan, especially with rishadan port. It just seems to good to pass up. Another card that looks too good to pass up at the moment is a singleton Brimaz in the main, given that most removal is red-based and people are trying to clog the ground with tokens and Swiftspears, but I've noticed neither you nor Cairo are running it... what are your thoughts on that?

My mainboard looks very similar to yours, except I run 1 Brimaz instead of the 4th flickerwisp, and the 2nd Spirit instead of the 3rd Revoker. I feel like the cards somewhat overlap in functionality, but Spirit stops more cards in the current meta, and I like having 4 maindeck ways to stop TC. Also, multiple Revokers in g1 are really bad against certain decks.

EDIT: my sb currently looks like this

2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Absolute Law
1 CoP: Red (this might become Aura Shards or some other tech instead, since I'm hard pressed to find room for it even against U/R delver, essentially relegating it to just anti-burn tech)
1 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Council's Judgement

By the way, what do you guys side out against U/R Delver and U/W/R Stoneblade? I find myself having more cards to bring in than obvious side-outs. Especially against U/W/R, you know you want to bring in CJ, Choke, and probably Absolute Law, but what are you taking out exactly? Everything in the main seems to have its application, except perhaps Mirran Crusader and Batterskull. Also, Pithing Needle might be better than a Revoker here, being able to lockdown Jitte without dying to Plow or burn...

Against UR I bring out Mangara and Revokers for Absolute Law, Canonists and a Judgment.

Against UWR it depends on the build - with Delvers I take out Mangara and a Revoker for Council's Judgment. The Stoneblade deck where TNN is a factor I bring out Mangara, an STP and a Gaddock Teeg for 2 Council's Judgment and a Aura Shards.

[Barook]

E-Tutor + Choke fascinates me.

In what match-ups is Aura Shards used for, aside from TNN + equipment decks?

How good has been Priest? I've been out of the loop for a while now.

[MrShine]

Well, I for one am super stoked to see the G splash getting some love. Teeg has always been a ringer, and ofc, the advantages that you get from running him main are extremely meta dependant... but damn if I don't like locking out Miracles. Choke seems great out of the board too, something I haven't tried yet.

Usually with the splash I play Grip as a straight improvement over the 2x Disenchant I run in mono-W, but Aura Shards definitely has some play! Nice work [Ali?] fromCairo

[from Cairo]

In what match-ups is Aura Shards used for, aside from TNN + equipment decks?


I mostly am using it against Stoneforge Mystic decks. It is very good in the mirror ... Miracles, Shardless, [UB] Tezz, Painter ... MUD [ Enchantress] or Affinity.

I usually don't bring Aura Shards in unless I'm fairly sure there are 3+ targets that matter - Equipment, Sylvan Library, Counterbalance, Phyrexian Revoker and combo kills (Painter+Grind, Thopter+Sword).

[Technicolor Mage]

So over on Salvation, discussion is just starting regarding Qasali Pridemage. Obviously this is a Maverick card but in a deck with vial like ours, this seems like a choice that deserves to be discussed and (re)tested. While I love Aura Shards effect, I tested it a bit yesterday and found that 3 mana (4) with Thalia was pretty steep for the amount of artifacts/enchantments I normally face. Also, I also found it a turn slow most of the time that I drew it.

I am not sure I want to completely remove Revoker from my list of tricks as Frenadol has done with his list, but he does make some good points on why the card is better for us at this time. Since I frequently attack with only one creature, exalted is also a cheeky way for us to push through more damage. My only concern going down this path is how close am I edging towards Maverick, as I stated before, this is suppose to be a splash only.

Dropped Aura shards, Library

Still figuring out the exact way I want to go with this idea, but here is my list I will be testing later today:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Serra Avenger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Flickerwisp

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah

The Side: Note, No containment Priest and SotL is back in the board (which may or may not be correct)


1 Absolute Law
1 Choke
2 Council's Judgment
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

[Luca Grease]

My only concern going down this path is how close am I edging towards Maverick, as I stated before, this is suppose to be a splash only.



This concern should never be a factor, imo. As long as you're experienced with the deck and understand all its inner workings, there's no reason to go against your better judgement in order to fit into a standardized archetype. If you think your manabase can support additional gold/green cards (and you probably want to add another Savannah here, as Frenadol did), and that those gold/green cards are contextually better than something you're already playing, then go ahead. It's the reason we're playing Teeg in the first place. It would make no sense to go against that logic when it comes to other cards.
There's a huge difference between trying to force in elements that don't belong into an archetype before you truly get proficient with it, and being able to constantly evolve your deck to fit the competitive environment precisely because you know it so intimately. The consensus best list is always ever so slightly outdated by definition.

That being said, I'm not sure that cutting Revoker altogether is the right choice. I'm not sure it's wrong either. Pridemage definately has the better body, and the Exhalted trigger can do some work. He's also better in SFM matchups and as versatile hate removal in post-board games (fuck you, dread of night, null rod, and company). On the other hand, Sensei's Divining Top, Sneak Attack, Deathrite Shaman, and Planeswalkers still show up frequently enough. Revoker is also not dead against Elves, which should always be in the back of our minds.
They both have plenty of applications in various fringe match-ups, which are almost impossible to quantify and compare.
One final concern is that Pridemage costs two colored mana in our deck with 8 colorless mana-producing lands. I am loath having too many of those cards, as sometimes you'll be inevitably stuck with Flickerwisp, Teeg, Serra Avenger, and Pridemage in hand with Plains, Port, Port on the board.
All in all, it is a very meta-dependant thing, but I wouldn't fault anyone for wanting to experiment with 2 Pridemages instead of 2 Revokers. I might even give it a shot myself.

As for your list, playing only 1 maindeck spirit just doesn't seem right at the moment. I would shave the 4th flickerwisp to make room for the second. As good as flickerwisp is, you really don't want to have multiples in your opener against a fast deck like UR, especially without a vial or on the draw, and Spirit has never been this good. That being said, more established players than I have gotten results with 1 spirit and 4 flickers, so that is only my opinion.

[Technicolor Mage]

The consensus best list is always ever so slightly outdated by definition.

This really resonates with me and I think it's the best piece of advice that can be given to any Legacy player, along with determining whether or not you will play big metas or just your local one. Sideboards are often very different in small metas vs playing 9+ rounds of swiss!

I did some testing and I really like my new list posted above. I did take your advice and put the second SotL in the main, and I dropped Crusader and Mindcensor. Instead I upped Avenger to 3, Mangara to 2, and put another Cage in the board.

Oh, and I didn't completely drop Revoker from my 75, two are in the board. This allows for full Pridemage test and still allows me to bring in Revoker for games 2/3 when necessary.

Decisions, decisions.

[Barook]

If you run 2 Pridemages, you need a minimum of 8 green sources, just saying.

@Luca Grease: Flickerwisp is the workhorse of the deck, plus it adds to the flyer count. Siding it out for specific match-ups is fine, but going below 4 Flickerwisps for the MD configuration is "doing it wrong".

[Bosque]

Wasteland is in a serious lull right now. If there was ever a time to run 8+ green sources, now is it. 4 Savannah, 4 fetch, 1 Horizon Canopy? Running relatively few fetches helps a little against Stifle if anyone starts running more of those again.

4 Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Canopy
4 Savannah
4 fetch
3 Plains

Also while I know it's likely heresy I would be interested to experiment with Sylvan Library and shuffle effects, or perhaps Life From The Loam to abuse Wasteland and bring back any of our lands that get trashed. If no one else is playing Wasteland we may as well double down and ruin everyone's day. Yes I'm pretty sure it may not be worth it in the long run, but what the heck.

[apple713]

white doesn't have anything like a GSZ does it? I imagine if it did it would be in here... is there anything even close?

[Luca Grease]

white doesn't have anything like a GSZ does it? I imagine if it did it would be in here... is there anything even close?

Mono-white? Nah. But if you are splashing green, you have Eladamri's Call and Worldly Tutor. Both are probably too slow for the maindeck though...

@ Barook: 3 Flickerwisp has been considered a legit choice for a while now, and I thought it was still the standard option. Although having shaved on the number of fliers recently, I might want to get the 4th flicker back in over Mirran Crusader... Still, I liked having less X/1's and a wild card against BUG...

[apple713]

Mono-white? Nah. But if you are splashing green, you have Eladamri's Call and Worldly Tutor. Both are probably too slow for the maindeck though...

@ Barook: 3 Flickerwisp has been considered a legit choice for a while now, and I thought it was still the standard option. Although having shaved on the number of fliers recently, I might want to get the 4th flicker back in over Mirran Crusader... Still, I liked having less X/1's and a wild card against BUG...


i know some decks have been trying a green splash, so would it be too much of a stretch to include birthing pod to pull out the silver bullet creatures when you need them? Seems slow tho?

[Luca Grease]

i know some decks have been trying a green splash, so would it be too much of a stretch to include birthing pod to pull out the silver bullet creatures when you need them? Seems slow tho?

Pod is expensive (more so with Thalia) and better suited to decks full of creatures with ETB effects. We mostly want to keep our critters in play. We don't play that many silver bullets anyway, we usually either go for playsets or a spread of 1 or 2-ofs with overlapping functionality. I don't think the current creature tutors cut it for this deck.

[MrShine]

white doesn't have anything like a GSZ does it?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=221555&type=card

Sorry, had to ;)

[Technicolor Mage]

So did some testing and have come to a few conclusions.

1) Choke is a beast of a card in a blue meta, BUT, it's 3 or (4) mana with Thalia. Also, while it's great for locking down Islands, FoW is still an issue (obviously) and daze just laughs at the ability. So, it's certainly a powerful card, but I am not sure it's the right fit for me. YMMV and I definitely recommend people test the card, but I found it awkward.

2) I finally put Brimaz back in the deck. Originally he let me down and I immediately went back to my Crusader build. However, King Kitty has been putting in major work and has earned his place for now. I imagine that most of the finishers in DNT or Teeg and Taxes (TnT acronym) builds will be meta dependent and because of that, Crusader/Brimaz/Avenger/Mangara and whomever else takes a turn in the rotation, will all see varying amounts of play over time.

3) I went up to 8 fliers by adding an additional Mindcensor. I was ho-hum about a singleton copy b/c of the magical Christmas land effect rarely happening. By adding the second, I double my chances I will see it early, I trade more often with flipped delvers, and one of my "weak" creatures can actually make it into the red zone (even better if it's carrying equipment). This deck has enough stay at home dudes as it is, so the evasion is a nice effect to have. I think a few mono white DnT players are experimenting with 8 fliers as well at SCG Philly, so we shall see if this gains any traction.

4) Pridemage was decent in testing but the deck has become very tight on space. Ultimately I think we can get by on taxing via thalia and then removing via Mangara/CJ. However, I also think this is a card that deserves testing for anyone playing TnT builds just so you can see if the card works for you. After all, not everyone plays Mangara.

5) I am really happy moving my two copies of Revoker into the board. The card has lots of targets, but can't block and has no evasion. For me the deck is evolving into new territory and I think reducing to 2 in the 75 is the way to go.

6) I am still not using Containment Priest, so my board has room for needle/Ratchet Bomb. I am not sure whether or not this is correct anymore as many lists are running 2 Priests in the board. However, making too many changes all at once can be tough when trying to isolate all the variables that exist. Now that people have been playing Priest for a bit, how are you liking it?


List is as follows

4 Mother of Runes
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Serra Avenger
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Flickerwisp

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:

1 Absolute Law
2 Council's Judgment
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace

[echofish]

I'm currently getting the cards to DnT, but I don't know if the deck can survive this meta with tc and forked bolt all over the place. I have played DnT alot on Cockatrice and I can't beat UR Delver. Is the deck worth investing into? If tc and dig gets the banhammer, the problem is solved, but what if they don't? Bringing in hate creatues like Spirit of the Labyrinth doesn't fix the problem. They will sooner or later find a bolt, or they just pitch tc to fow.

[LeoCop 90]

Man, i would suggest playing the deck a lot more and exploring different builds/sideboard option before saying U/R delver is unbeatable. Actually I (and most people) think that it is an even or quite favorable. While treasure cruise and dig through time are a problem, spirit of the labyrinth , gaddock teeg, relic of progenitus are decent answers, and we have a lot of cards that crush their gameplan (mother of runes is good against removal, vial stops counterspells, thalia and manadenial are very good since they run few lands, equipments are game over.... ). Awesome sideboard cards that can completely swing the matchup in our favor are kor firewalker, circle of protection red and absolute law. The problematic matchup is uwr stoneforge/nemesis, not U/R. If you post your build we can maybe understand why you are having so much troubles.

[mrjumbo03]

^I find it the other way around. I'm not having trouble with those URW Stoneblade lists because they are slower out of the gate, compared to UR delver where playing on the draw is such a beating.

[echofish]

Man, i would suggest playing the deck a lot more and exploring different builds/sideboard option before saying U/R delver is unbeatable. Actually I (and most people) think that it is an even or quite favorable. While treasure cruise and dig through time are a problem, spirit of the labyrinth , gaddock teeg, relic of progenitus are decent answers, and we have a lot of cards that crush their gameplan (mother of runes is good against removal, vial stops counterspells, thalia and manadenial are very good since they run few lands, equipments are game over.... ). Awesome sideboard cards that can completely swing the matchup in our favor are kor firewalker, circle of protection red and absolute law. The problematic matchup is uwr stoneforge/nemesis, not U/R. If you post your build we can maybe understand why you are having so much troubles.

In my experience, they will burn your Mother before it become active. They typically run 3 Forked Bolts which continues to 2-for-1 you. They will counter Absolute Law and copr. Stoneforge will also never get to become active.

How does you sideboard look like? I dont have room for Firewalkers.

[echofish]

Also, these stats shows very clearly that DnT struggles against UR Delver:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/2sezsj/scg_philly_day_2_results_for_major_archetypes/

[H]

Also, these stats shows very clearly that DnT struggles against UR Delver:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/2sezsj/scg_philly_day_2_results_for_major_archetypes/

While I can't say that the matchup is favorable, it certainly shouldn't be that unfavored. Those results, while interesting, are odd. Look at the matchup versus Sneak and Show, 0-3. That is one of the more favored matchups this deck has, so things were certainly not breaking D&T's way that day.

You need somethinig in the board though, because this matchup is close to even pre-board, but post-board they will have hate and you need to have hate, or counter-hate, as well. If you don't post your list though, we really can't help much, since we have no idea what you are using and why it might not be working.

[echofish]

While I can't say that the matchup is favorable, it certainly shouldn't be that unfavored. Those results, while interesting, are odd. Look at the matchup versus Sneak and Show, 0-3. That is one of the more favored matchups this deck has, so things were certainly not breaking D&T's way that day.

You need somethinig in the board though, because this matchup is close to even pre-board, but post-board they will have hate and you need to have hate, or counter-hate, as well. If you don't post your list though, we really can't help much, since we have no idea what you are using and why it might not be working.

I use much of the same sideboard as Marc Kunig, but I'll try to make room for some Firewalkers. I guess they are better then copr and Law, in the sense that they can be uncounterable with vial and cavern. Also not getting taxed with Thalia.

[thefreakaccident]

Been testing relic of progenitus as a mainboard solution to all the delving that's been going on. People used to use it in the mainboard of merfolk back when for various reasons, and I can't think of a better reason than for resource denial, which suites this deck perfectly.

This is the rough list:

lands//22
10 plains
2 karakas
2 flagstones of trokair
2 cavern of souls
2 rishadan port
4 wasteland

spells//12
4 aether vial
3 relic of progenitus
3 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull

creatures//26
4 thalia
4 stoneforge
4 mother of runes
4 spirit of the labrinth
4 flickerwisp
3 serra avenger
2 aven mindcensor
1 mangara of corondor


The sideboard is inconsequential at the moment. The inclusion of relic of progenitus into the mainboard is something that I feel may become more common in the future. I want the 4th in the main, but i'm not sure what to cut. I'm also not too sure about all the numbers, as I never really tested the deck until recently.

Relic has been doing very well in testing, sometimes giving me free wins against graveyard dependent strategies. It also keeps treasure cruise decks honest. The singleton mangara seems random, but he always seems to show up to save my ass, so maybe the silver bullet is worth it.

Any thoughts towards cleaning up the list for the currrent meta, while keeping the relics, let me know. I'd like to hear em.

[GoblinZ]

Could the new B&R update be a good news to DNT players? I am thinking what I should play at GPT this weekend.

[Luca Grease]

Yes, of course it's good news for DnT. Just be ready for the return of black attrition decks.

[MrShine]

Been testing relic of progenitus as a mainboard solution to all the delving that's been going on...

Well, I thought that idea really had some merit... I guess its just not going to be as relevant anymore.

That being said, if BUG is going to come back in a big way, MD Relic seems cool as a way to mitigate the power of Goyf in the mid-late game; I've always found 4 STP to be not nearly enough to deal with all the DRS and/or Delvers and/or Goyfs hitting the table.

Plus I get the sense that cycling through the deck is actually something that we want to be able to do more of; experience with Horizon Canopy pointing me here. Lack of card selection outside of SFM means dig is actually helpful; the number of times I just need to draw an STP or another Wisp to steal the game...

[cursecatcher]

Seems like the time to switch brimaz back to mirran crusader. Also seems like spirit of the labyrinth is less needed now, and perhaps the 4th revoker can return to being the norm. In the sideboard, cards like Absolute Law, COP:Red, and Ratchet Bomb might be able to be trimmed for cards that help against BUG strategies, like mirran crusader or wilt-leaf liege, or putting the 2nd rest in peace back in.

Overall I think this is great news for DnT players.

[thefreakaccident]

Ok, made something Janky.

lands//23
4 scrubland
1 marsh flats
1 flooded strand
1 arid mesa
2 windswept heath
4 wasteland
3 karakas
2 plains
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 cavern of souls

spells//
4 aether vial
3 zealous persecution
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire/ice

creatures//27
4 mother of runes
4 stoneforge mystic
4 thalia
4 deathrite shaman
4 braids, cabal minion
3 mangara
4 flickerwisp


The deck is basically a creature based stax, and I've been seeing a lot of creatures with the backside of one recently, hence the persecutions.

[Bosque]

Braids and Taxes. If only Braids was a 3 drop I'd be all over that. If you're going to try Braids though you might want some form of token generator to sack to Braids if need be, like perhaps Brimaz?

[thefreakaccident]

Braids and Taxes. If only Braids was a 3 drop I'd be all over that. If you're going to try Braids though you might want some form of token generator to sack to Braids if need be, like perhaps Brimaz?

Started testing brimaz as a four of since you mentioned him. He's actually a fantastic card. He deals good dmg and then also defends equally, i've been impressed. Fits the legend theme of the deck as well, which gives me a better chance of saving him via karakas.

[Barbed Blightning]

Jesus, nice snap-ban from WotC. I guess since everyone else is convinced that BGx is coming back, we should consider Wilt-Leaf and Crusader again.

[Bahra]

i know some decks have been trying a green splash, so would it be too much of a stretch to include birthing pod to pull out the silver bullet creatures when you need them? Seems slow tho?

This suggestion is almost as bad as your "Chalice of the dark order" "innovation"


I use much of the same sideboard as Marc Kunig, but I'll try to make room for some Firewalkers. I guess they are better then copr and Law, in the sense that they can be uncounterable with vial and cavern. Also not getting taxed with Thalia.

Kunig? :really:

Don't bother with the firewalkers, they are bad and now they are unnecessary.

My new list looks like this:


Lands (23):

1x Cavern of Souls
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Karakas
4x Flagstones of Trokair
6x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland


Creatures (26):

4x Flickerwisp (4!!!)
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Mangara of Corondor
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Serra Avenger

Non-creature spells (11):

4x Æther vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

Sideboard:

2x Cataclysm
1x Council's Judgement
2x Enlightened tutor
3x Rest in Peace
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
1x Mindbreak Trap


Not done working on the sideboard yet. And Serra Avenger can be discussed, but it's usually pretty solid against stuff like Punishing Fire, Tarmogoyfs and Agents of the shardless variety.

4x Flagstones now because the downside is almost non-existent and it wins games with Cataclysm when you're behind vs. Miracles, Nic Fit, Lands, 12 post etc.

Deck is now better against: Miracles, Shardless BUG, Jund, Mirror, Stoneblade and a lot of random crap like Pox, Nic Fit etc.
Deck is now worse against: Blood Moon decks, UR delver, Burn, Storm (game 1).

EDIT: I expect miracles to dominate the meta, and if they don't push out elves enough. Then I will start including Containment Priest again. But for now we will wait and see how the meta plays out, but I would play this list in any open meta with the new B&R list.

[Kayradis]

Ill sleeve it and give you my opinion on it Bahra.

[razvan]

This suggestion is almost as bad as your "Chalice of the dark order" "innovation"
I hate posting non-topic stuff, but, for some inexplicable reason, I have been laughing for over a minute at this statement. I think I need help.

[Stevestamopz]

I hate posting non-topic stuff, but, for some inexplicable reason, I have been laughing for over a minute at this statement. I think I need help.

It's always funny watching someone get burned

[echofish]

Bahra: Heh. Sorry about that :)

Why only one Cavern? Also, I have big troubles resolving Cataclysm against Miracles. Since they have a hard time countering anything in the deck, they will have a counter spell ready for it.

[Troll Slayer]

Here is a simple Death & Taxes primer for the uninitiated!
http://www.moxboardinghouse.com/media/mtg-101-legacy-death-taxes/

[Bahra]

Bahra: Heh. Sorry about that :)

Why only one Cavern? Also, I have big troubles resolving Cataclysm against Miracles. Since they have a hard time countering anything in the deck, they will have a counter spell ready for it.

Only one Cavern of Souls because it is awesome, but it is too taxing on the already questionable mana base to add more.

If they have a hard time countering anything, it means you're winning. They have to counter Vial and Pithing Needle. If they don't counter any of the other stuff, then there's usually too much to deal with so either you win, or you resolve your Cataclysm and then you probably win too.

Usually it is not that simple though, you have to really play to your Cataclysm once you have it. Make them tap out for Jace, wait till they've played a ton of lands, tapped out for entreat or something similar, and then fire it off. Jamming it on turn 4 is usually wrong.

So if you pick your spots right, then your Cataclysm will resolve and be effective in most cases.

[echofish]

Only one Cavern of Souls because it is awesome, but it is too taxing on the already questionable mana base to add more.

If they have a hard time countering anything, it means you're winning. They have to counter Vial and Pithing Needle. If they don't counter any of the other stuff, then there's usually too much to deal with so either you win, or you resolve your Cataclysm and then you probably win too.

Usually it is not that simple though, you have to really play to your Cataclysm once you have it. Make them tap out for Jace, wait till they've played a ton of lands, tapped out for entreat or something similar, and then fire it off. Jamming it on turn 4 is usually wrong.

So if you pick your spots right, then your Cataclysm will resolve and be effective in most cases.

They will usually still have top+cb+land and play from the top of library, though.

[Luca Grease]

They will usually still have top+cb+land and play from the top of library, though.

Still worth it if it gets rid of a planeswalker or an army of angels + all of their lands but 1. If they already used entreat, they'll be practically forced to win through jace, and that's a difficult proposition with only 1 land in play. They'll have a hard time rebuilding their mana base once you have wiped out 5 or 6 of their mana sources.

[Bahra]

They will usually still have top+cb+land and play from the top of library, though.

Are you talking game 1? No one in their right mind plays Cataclysm main deck, and no decent miracles player has CB after board against D&T.

[Bahra]

So I don't know if you guys heard but I won Eternal Clash 2015 on Saturday and my report is under "Tournament Reports".

I made a few changes to the list I posted earlier, namely I cut the Mindbreak Trap and the 3rd Rest in Peace in the board, in favor of 1 more Council's Judgement and a Containment Priest.

[planeswalkerzen]

So I don't know if you guys heard but I won Eternal Clash 2015 on Saturday and my report is under "Tournament Reports".

I made a few changes to the list I posted earlier, namely I cut the Mindbreak Trap and the 3rd Rest in Peace in the board, in favor of 1 more Council's Judgement and a Containment Priest.

What are your thoughts on Enlightened Tutor with less different targets? It almost feels like they can just become another RIP/Relic and Canonist/Ratchet Bomb due to the lack of different targets you have. For example against Shardless BUG when you board in RIP, is it worth still boarding in the Tutor?

[Bahra]

What are your thoughts on Enlightened Tutor with less different targets? It almost feels like they can just become another RIP/Relic and Canonist/Ratchet Bomb due to the lack of different targets you have. For example against Shardless BUG when you board in RIP, is it worth still boarding in the Tutor?

Well Ratchet Bomb, Pithing Needle, Rest in Peace and Ethersworn Canonist does vastly different things. So I like having the Enlightened Tutor. It COULD be just another piece of graveyard hate and another piece of storm hate, but I think that having access to 3 copies of Ratchet Bomb vs. TES and Belcher is great. And I like having so many cards vs. graveyard decks and storm decks altogether. I think the fair match up is good enough that you want the enlightened tutor (that I am never bringing in against any fair decks).

[Luca Grease]

Congrats on the victory, Bahra!

Reading the report, I see you didn't side out the SFM package against Lands: that is usually the first thing I cut (except maybe SoFI) since the other equipments don't seem very good and require too much mana investment to be undone by a simple Maze of Ith activation. What do you take out then, and what is your reasoning?

[Bahra]

Congrats on the victory, Bahra!

Reading the report, I see you didn't side out the SFM package against Lands: that is usually the first thing I cut (except maybe SoFI) since the other equipments don't seem very good and require too much mana investment to be undone by a simple Maze of Ith activation. What do you take out then, and what is your reasoning?

I cut Swords to Plowshares and Phyrexian Revoker (since it can only name Mox Diamond and it's very fragile) depending on their build. Stoneforge is fine because it is 2 threats in one (with Batterskull) and it fetches Sword of Fire and Ice that gives your creatures protection from Punishing Fire and makes them into very potent threats. All the equipment is fine since it lets you hit harder, and Maze of Ith can be dealt with, with Rishadan Port, Wasteland and Pithing Needle (although you mostly want to name Thespian's Stage with Pithing Needle). And playing Maze of Ith also slows them down, which gives you more time to draw Rest in Peace and Cataclysm. I think the mana investment argument is fundamentally flawed, since you will often have many turns and a lot of mana during the game. So unless you keep a hand that lets you get Wastelanded out of the game, you will get to play all your cards.

At the event I boarded like this versus RG Combo Lands: -2 Swords to Plowshares -4 Phyrexian Revoker -1 Mirran Crusader +2x Rest in Peace +2x Council's Judgement +2x Cataclysm +1x Pithing Needle.

I kept in 2x Swords to Plowshares because sometimes they just make a 20/20 on turn 2 and then you have to have more than just 3x Karakas to deal with it, but mostly Swords to Plowshares is not good in the match up. Mirran Crusader is very weak against them so I cut one, but it hits through Marit Lage and carries equipment well so one copy stayed in. It might be incorrect to cut all the Phyrexian Revokers since mana screwing lands is actually a very viable strategy with D&T, but it only hits 4 cards in their deck and so I think I value dedicated beaters higher.

I have never lost to Lands even though there's 3 lands (both RG Combo Lands and Intuition Lands) players at my LGS, so I think my sideboard plan and game plan against Lands is very solid.

[Luca Grease]

Thanks for the reply, that's definitely a different perspective on sideboarding for Lands and it's always interesting to compare strategies. I am a little surprised that you don't side in your Tutors, since Pithing Needle and especially Rest in Peace are so powerful against them. Sure, they run Krosan Grips and can Gamble for them, but RiP can do a lot of work by just nuking their graveyard even if it's destroyed immediately after. SoFI and Batterskull are probably pretty good cards against them in much the same way they are against Miracles, and SFM can be activated at instant speed so Ports will have a hard time stopping you. I would still probably cut Jitte though.
I agree with you that Swords to Plowshares is not a very good answer to Marit Lage, the lifegain will usually undo all your work and allow them to re-assemble at their leisure. However, the Lands guy I usually test against has started playing Titania, Protector of Argoth in his maindeck, and if the trend catches on I definitely want all the StPs I can get...
Finally, while Revoker can only hit Mox Diamond, I remember quite a few games where it actually locked my opponent out of casting Loam early on cause he was relying on the Mox for his colored mana, so it's definitely not a worthless card in the match-up. At the end of the day, you've got to pick your battles and there is probably no "perfect" sideboarding strategy...

[Bahra]

Thanks for the reply, that's definitely a different perspective on sideboarding for Lands and it's always interesting to compare strategies. I am a little surprised that you don't side in your Tutors, since Pithing Needle and especially Rest in Peace are so powerful against them. Sure, they run Krosan Grips and can Gamble for them, but RiP can do a lot of work by just nuking their graveyard even if it's destroyed immediately after. SoFI and Batterskull are probably pretty good cards against them in much the same way they are against Miracles, and SFM can be activated at instant speed so Ports will have a hard time stopping you. I would still probably cut Jitte though.
I agree with you that Swords to Plowshares is not a very good answer to Marit Lage, the lifegain will usually undo all your work and allow them to re-assemble at their leisure. However, the Lands guy I usually test against has started playing Titania, Protector of Argoth in his maindeck, and if the trend catches on I definitely want all the StPs I can get...
Finally, while Revoker can only hit Mox Diamond, I remember quite a few games where it actually locked my opponent out of casting Loam early on cause he was relying on the Mox for his colored mana, so it's definitely not a worthless card in the match-up. At the end of the day, you've got to pick your battles and there is probably no "perfect" sideboarding strategy...

I didn't sideboard in the Enlightened Tutors because RG Lands can easily be beaten without Rest in Peace and since they side in 4x Krosan Grips the 2 card investment and tempo loss is too much. If they have played Loam 3-4 times already then they have probably made Marit Lage several times by then and that is not undone by Rest in Peace. I also find that all my cards are so good in the match up that I don't want a tutor that denies me my next draw step. And if you just have cards that are troublesome for the opponent to deal with instead of Enlightened Tutors, then you will get to the late game (or kill your opponent before you get there) and eventually you'll draw one of your devastating sideboard cards. It is 2 different ways to approach the match up, but I think the Enlightened Tutor approach is better suited for dealing with Intuition Lands, because they use their graveyard much better and have a harder time playing without it.

I never said that Phyrexian Revoker is a worthless card in the match up, it's just that all your cards are so good that I think Revoker is the weakest card.

[cursecatcher]

@Bahra I'm curious about the matchups you like bringing in Ratchet Bomb for. Off the top of my head: TES, Belcher, Elves, and the mirror. I'm curious if I'm missing any that are less intuitive though. I've stayed away from this card in the past because of my lack of confidence of when it's worth it, and I think that's possibly a mistake.

Another question I've been mulling over recently is whether or not Cataclysm would possibly be worth bringing in against Elves. My knee-jerk reaction is to say its just too slow, but perhaps we are able to consistently slow them down just enough to have the time to fire this off? I might be totally off-base on this. Just wanted to get some feedback.

PS @Bahra: I think I will be playing your 75 from your tournament report within a card or two at the SCG in Indy this weekend. It looks very solid for where things seem to be moving. I felt weird removing the Grafdigger's Cage, but with the second RIP going back in and Containment Priest existing now, it seems like Cage is probably too overlapping now.

[Luca Grease]

@Bahra I'm curious about the matchups you like bringing in Ratchet Bomb for. Off the top of my head: TES, Belcher, Elves, and the mirror. I'm curious if I'm missing any that are less intuitive though. I've stayed away from this card in the past because of my lack of confidence of when it's worth it, and I think that's possibly a mistake.



I've also long snubbed Ratchet Bomb but I'm starting to feel like it might have been a mistake. Other than the situations you mentioned, the card is also pretty good against decks running Delvers/Young Pyromancers (flipped delvers have a CMC of 0), so definately a side-in against UR Delver, possibly even RUG. I guess there is some merit to the idea of siding it in against Miracles to nuke their Entreat the Angels, since you could theoretically still use it to get rid of some annoying post-board permanents if you need to be more proactive, but I that would probably end up destroying some of your stuff as well...

[Bahra]

@Bahra I'm curious about the matchups you like bringing in Ratchet Bomb for. Off the top of my head: TES, Belcher, Elves, and the mirror. I'm curious if I'm missing any that are less intuitive though. I've stayed away from this card in the past because of my lack of confidence of when it's worth it, and I think that's possibly a mistake.

Another question I've been mulling over recently is whether or not Cataclysm would possibly be worth bringing in against Elves. My knee-jerk reaction is to say its just too slow, but perhaps we are able to consistently slow them down just enough to have the time to fire this off? I might be totally off-base on this. Just wanted to get some feedback.

PS @Bahra: I think I will be playing your 75 from your tournament report within a card or two at the SCG in Indy this weekend. It looks very solid for where things seem to be moving. I felt weird removing the Grafdigger's Cage, but with the second RIP going back in and Containment Priest existing now, it seems like Cage is probably too overlapping now.

Ratchet Bomb is great against Miracles, TES, Belcher, Elves, D&T and it's ok against ANT. I also board it in against RUG and UR delver because it deals with all their threats relatively quickly as well. It deals with the first Entreat out of Miracles, it deals with Empty the Warrens out of TES and Belcher and it deals with Empty the Warrens and Dread of Night out of ANT. Then it's another tool against Elves.

I've been discussing Cataclysm vs. Elves with Julian Knab and we agreed that Elves simply rebuilt quicker than D&T after a Cataclysm and that's if you're not dead before you even get to cast it.

[cursecatcher]

I'm inclined to agree with this thinking about Cataclysm in the Elves matchup. Though I see you have 4 Flagstones in your recent version, presumably to maximize the effectiveness of Cataclysm, so this might slightly improve your ability to rebuild quickly.

I found that amount of Flagstones to be quite intriguing in its own right as well. I thought it might be a metagame decision because of the popularity of Miracles in your area (hence Cataclysm coming in often) or scarcity of decks with maindeck Blood Moon effects that could randomly punish you (like Painter). I've never played the deck with more than one flagstones, so I'm definitely curious if I should try more in Indy.

[planeswalkerzen]

Well Ratchet Bomb, Pithing Needle, Rest in Peace and Ethersworn Canonist does vastly different things. So I like having the Enlightened Tutor. It COULD be just another piece of graveyard hate and another piece of storm hate, but I think that having access to 3 copies of Ratchet Bomb vs. TES and Belcher is great. And I like having so many cards vs. graveyard decks and storm decks altogether. I think the fair match up is good enough that you want the enlightened tutor (that I am never bringing in against any fair decks).

Fair enough, so when you playing against a fair deck like RUG Delver you bring in the 2 RIP but not the Tutor? How would you SB with your list against decks like RUG Delver and Shardless BUG?

[ryscott85]

I'm inclined to agree with this thinking about Cataclysm in the Elves matchup. Though I see you have 4 Flagstones in your recent version, presumably to maximize the effectiveness of Cataclysm, so this might slightly improve your ability to rebuild quickly.

I found that amount of Flagstones to be quite intriguing in its own right as well. I thought it might be a metagame decision because of the popularity of Miracles in your area (hence Cataclysm coming in often) or scarcity of decks with maindeck Blood Moon effects that could randomly punish you (like Painter). I've never played the deck with more than one flagstones, so I'm definitely curious if I should try more in Indy.



I second this question. With the possibility of blood moon and wasteland returning to the format, it seems maxing out on flagstones could possibly be problematic if they time things out correctly.

[planeswalkerzen]

I second this question. With the possibility of blood moon and wasteland returning to the format, it seems maxing out on flagstones could possibly be problematic if they time things out correctly.If you're not able to fetch a Plains from a Flagstones they just Wasteland'd, you should have enough Plains already :P

[tescrin]

If you're not able to fetch a Plains from a Flagstones they just Wasteland'd, you should have enough Plains already :P

I think he's concerned that you're running this land, someone wastes it in response to Cataclysm and you gain nothing, but have a shakier manabase in as moons come back in to the meta.

[Bahra]

Fair enough, so when you playing against a fair deck like RUG Delver you bring in the 2 RIP but not the Tutor? How would you SB with your list against decks like RUG Delver and Shardless BUG?

Against RUG Delver: -4 Phyrexian Revoker +2x Rest in Peace +1 Ratchet Bomb +1 Council's Judgement.

Against Shardless BUG: -4 Phyrexian Revoker +2 Rest in Peace +2 Wilt-Leaf Liege

[Rampart]

Against RUG Delver: -4 Phyrexian Revoker +2x Rest in Peace +1 Ratchet Bomb +1 Council's Judgement.

Against Shardless BUG: -4 Phyrexian Revoker +2 Rest in Peace +2 Wilt-Leaf Liege

So I played your build of D&T (slightly tweaked) at my local legacy last night and ran into Jund in the last round. I ended up winning the match but just felt like I side-boarded wrong.

How would you sideboard against Jund with your current sideboard?

Thanks

[Bahra]

So I played your build of D&T (slightly tweaked) at my local legacy last night and ran into Jund in the last round. I ended up winning the match but just felt like I side-boarded wrong.

How would you sideboard against Jund with your current sideboard?

Thanks

Shardless BUG and Jund are very similar except that Jund has an easier time dealing with equipment because of Ancient Grudge. I would sideboard the same way in both match ups.

[Rampart]

Shardless BUG and Jund are very similar except that Jund has an easier time dealing with equipment because of Ancient Grudge. I would sideboard the same way in both match ups.

Thanks, I also sided in Cataclysm but I guess that its unnecessary.

[echofish]

Any thought about running Dust Bowl? Works great with Flagstones btw.

[koten]

Is there a general consensus for which SB card is best against burn? COP:Red or Kor Firewalker are probably the top choices, I'm guessing.

[Bahra]

Is there a general consensus for which SB card is best against burn? COP:Red or Kor Firewalker are probably the top choices, I'm guessing.

People discuss Warmth vs. Circle of Protection:Red but I think that COP:Red is clearly the best sideboard card vs. Burn. Absolute Law is also pretty good, but it requires you to draw Stoneforge Mystic and COP:Red just wins on its own.

[mrjumbo03]

I just won a 48-man tourney (the first major one here after the TC banning) for an UNL Underground Sea.

My list was:
9 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Horizon Canopy

4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Rest In Peace
2 Ethersword Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgement
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Cataclysm

Mangara and Brimaz did a lot of work for me today, and it allows me to maximize my quad-Karakas. I was also extremely lucky with a bunch of really good hands, and a lot of bad hands for my opponents.

R1 - BURG 2-1 (1-0)
R1G1: Mulled. Got killed by a Mongoose and Tarmo.
R1G2G3: Both games he was barely in it because of Thalia, Karakas, Mana denial plus poor draws for him. One game, he had no answers for Brimaz, another one he got hit by RIP pretty bad.

R2 - Esper Deathblade 0-1 (1-1)
R2G1: Long game wherein I finally stabilized and was about to win but he gets to DigTT twice and kills me with TNN and Batterskull. Interesting point in the game was he had to 3-for-1 my Mangara (STP'd it, I bounced, then when I replayed it he FoW'ed), which contributed to his victory.
R2G2: Needed 1 more damage to eke out a draw but wasn't meant to be. Made a lot of poor decisions that would have resulted into a win for me (I counted 3).

R3 - Sneak and Show 2-0 (2-1)
R3G1: Thalia plus Wasteland and Port gets there.
R3G2: Karakas plus Containment Priest snatches the victory as he already had Sneak in play, and was about to go R,R against my Karakas.

R4 - RUG 2-0 (3-1)
R4G1: Vial and double Wasteland hand leaves him landless.
R4G2: Played around Stifle (which I found out later he had) and Daze. Managed to kill his Delver and the only damage I got was from tapping my Canopy.

R5 - Miracles 1-1 (3-1-1)
R5G1: Long drawn out game wherein I get him down to 1 but then I lose to Entreat.
R5G2: Managed to kill him on the last turn possible, letting me salvage a draw.

R6 - Miracles 2-0 (4-1-1)
R6G1: Extremely good hand loaded with Vial, Thalia, Stoneforge and Revoker.
R6G2: Long game but I managed to win when he tried to Brainstorm into Entreat but I managed to get him with Canonist. Thalia was again MVP, as well as Brimaz, with Karakas Protection. The threat of Mangara lock forced him to Terminus, but I had a Flickerwisp to save it so he had to waste another swords on it when it came back.

I was 7th so I was pretty much going to be on the draw for the rest of the top8.
T8 - Infect 2-0 (5-1-1)
T8G1: He had a subpar hand, and he was forced to Berserk my attacking Revoker on Hierarch because he was light on lands. He needed 1 more infect damage to go for the kill turn2 but he didn't have it and was forced to use his Berserk and Vines on my stuff (he vines in response to an equip of Jitte).
T8G2: He mulled to a pretty decent 5. Made a mistake of walking my Canonist into his Daze. Had to play smart because he had 2 Inkmoth's in play and had a Needle on Port. Eventually got there.

T4 - Belcher 2-1 (6-1-1)
T4G1: He mulled to 6 and was on the play but just went done go for his first turn so I got a free Time Walk. He draws the needed card and goes off his T2, but had only 6 mana floating when he played his Belcher (2 left) so he was forced to pop his LED to activate. Luckily, Taiga was the 5th card down and I was down to 10. I landed Thalia and won from there. If he would have had 7 mana floating when he played Belcher, he could've saved his LED for a 2nd activation next turn to kill me.
T4G2: He goes T1 18 Goblin tokens. I needed to draw my Ratchet Bomb but I didn't.
T4G3: He keeps his 7, I mull. Not looking good. He goes T1 Charbelcher with enough mana to go off next turn, saw his hand via Land Grant. This was enough for me to land my Revoker and win from there. I can't believe my luck for beating Belcher!

Top2 - Grixis 2-0 (7-1-1)
T2G1: Managed to lock him with Thalia and Port early.
T2G2: Mulled to a Vial and Triple Thalia with only 1 Wasteland hand. Vial, Thalia, Brimaz, Flickerwisp gets there against his TNN and YP.

It's a good time to be playing the deck again. UR Delver with TC was almost impossible when they're on the play and I'm glad that it's gone. The Meta seems to be Miracles-centric now. Hopefully, this means that it pushes out Elves even more and subsequently, Sneak and Show comes back strong, which can only be good for us. Various 3-color decks also seemed poised to make a comeback as well(RUG, BUG, TNN-stoneblade) which are good to okay matchups for us. I love my 2 Mangara and 2 Brimaz configuration and might likely stay that way even if BUG makes a comeback. The 8-Legend/4-Karakas setup leads to plenty of board states that allows you to protect a critical creature.

Keep on Taxing!

[Mkr]

Congrats on the win!



R2 - Esper Deathblade 0-1 (1-1)
R2G1: Long game wherein I finally stabilized and was about to win but he gets to DigTT twice and kills me with TNN and Batterskull. Interesting point in the game was he had to 3-for-1 my Mangara (STP'd it, I bounced, then when I replayed it he FoW'ed), which contributed to his victory.
R2G2: Needed 1 more damage to eke out a draw but wasn't meant to be. Made a lot of poor decisions that would have resulted into a win for me (I counted 3).


All that with Thalia in play! :laugh:

[echofish]

It was really devastating watching DnT getting rekt by elves on SCG stream this weekend. Anything we can do to make the matchup better? Include Gut Shots in SB? I don't really like Ratchet Bomb because it blows up Vial.

[hill_giant]

It was really devastating watching DnT getting rekt by elves on SCG stream this weekend. Anything we can do to make the matchup better? Include Gut Shots in SB? I don't really like Ratchet Bomb because it blows up Vial.

It felt horrible to fall from 9-1 to 9-4 and brick for t8, and getting paired against Hoey again just 1 week after he knocked me out of a 7-round super IQ was pretty tilting. If there's some powerful bullet for elves that we can board, I'm up for it, even if it's not good in other matchups. It's hard to find a good etutor target (like moat used to be) that doesn't just get immediately reclamation saged.

[H]

It felt horrible to fall from 9-1 to 9-4 and brick for t8, and getting paired against Hoey again just 1 week after he knocked me out of a 7-round super IQ was pretty tilting. If there's some powerful bullet for elves that we can board, I'm up for it, even if it's not good in other matchups. It's hard to find a good etutor target (like moat used to be) that doesn't just get immediately reclamation saged.

Well, you could try Magus of the Moat (was that was Dave Shiels that ran it), but you can't Tutor for it. I mean, literally everything you can tutor for will get killed by Sage, so I think that might be a dead end.

[tescrin]

You guys were experimenting with Teeg like.. a month ago? Why not experiment with *the eensiest* black or red splash and nail them with Persecution after Persecution (or E.Plague.) You could also do the same with a red splash for Sudden Demise, which also happens to cover Storm's main out to D&T (gobbos.)

That said, they can't easily sage if you use Cage, which is the natural enemy of their win cons. I think Cage/Teeg are solid if you can deal with other things. Also, consider that you used to run Aven Mindcensor which is actually quite reasonable against elves.


Maybe it's time to drop Avengers to Avens and/or splash red for easy hate. What's more, it's CA and it's reasonable against a variety of fair decks (particularly black attrition decks.)

[hill_giant]

Well, you could try Magus of the Moat (was that was Dave Shiels that ran it), but you can't Tutor for it. I mean, literally everything you can tutor for will get killed by Sage, so I think that might be a dead end.

I tried the magus and hated it. You can't bring it in in other matchups because it's so fragile against everyone else, and it's not tutorable, so it costs a sb slot for a single card you have to naturally draw that comes in for one matchup (and also I lost the first game I cast it because he just decayed my flier and DRSed me out before I could find another).

To be fair, I do actually have a tutor target in my sb that's solid against elves and doesn't get hit by sage (humility), so it doesn't get literally everything. Also, if there were something like eplague that I could tutor for, I wouldn't mind it getting hit by sage. Ratchet bomb doesn't count because sage stops it from going off. I just want something less terrible than holy light.

Edit: how terrible is EE as just elves hate? You can also kill goblins/angels/monks with it if you're interested in that sort of thing.

[Bahra]

You guys were experimenting with Teeg like.. a month ago? Why not experiment with *the eensiest* black or red splash and nail them with Persecution after Persecution (or E.Plague.) You could also do the same with a red splash for Sudden Demise, which also happens to cover Storm's main out to D&T (gobbos.)

That said, they can't easily sage if you use Cage, which is the natural enemy of their win cons. I think Cage/Teeg are solid if you can deal with other things. Also, consider that you used to run Aven Mindcensor which is actually quite reasonable against elves.


Maybe it's time to drop Avengers to Avens and/or splash red for easy hate. What's more, it's CA and it's reasonable against a variety of fair decks (particularly black attrition decks.)

How is storm's main out to D&T goblins? Empty the Warrens is absolutely horrible against D&T and ANT will never side it in against a stoneforge creature deck like ours. Sounds like you're just trying to sell Sudden Demise, which is completely unreasonable since it's really bad in D&T. And Zealous Persecution is just better in every way. Anyways, splashing is not a good idea, and is very tough for a Rishadan Port deck. I would just recommend playing Deadguy Ale if you like powerful and hateful sideboard cards and feel they are necessary.

[Luca Grease]

Bahra, I have a question for you: do you feel that the full playset of Revokers is indispensable? Reading about your sideboarding strategies, you seem to be siding them out a lot, even against decks where they have reasonable targets, like Jund, Shardless, and Lands (and I can see the reasoning behind that, with them being vanilla 2/1s and all). Couple that with the fact that they are mostly dead cards against popular decks like RUG, Omni-Tell, UR, etc., and not that exciting against Stoneblade variants either, I wonder whether playing 4 is really warranted. Sure, they are great against Miracles, Sneak and Show, and the mirror, plus some fringe stuff like Painter or MUD, and decent against Storm and Elves, but from the look of things, you're still expecting to side at least a few of them out more often than not... Is the 4-of really warranted here?

[tescrin]

How is storm's main out to D&T goblins? Empty the Warrens is absolutely horrible against D&T and ANT will never side it in against a stoneforge creature deck like ours.

SFM MUs are fine to go Gobs as long as you do it early enough. I would wager you'd see Lemnear and Bryant talking about it in the TES thread. I mean this only for T1/T2 EtW and only with 10+/14+, and I typically think of storm as TES since they're more dangerous. You're correct that ANT won't side it in, but ANT is almost a turn slower by comparison and can't pull early Gobbos reliably enough anyway; TES still typically runs EtW main and it's not like the decks can't just wish for it T1 anyway.

If they have a guaranteed win (10+ gobbos T1 on the play, 14+ T1 on the draw or T2 on the play) there is no reason to risk losing by Massacre->ToA late-game when they can just watch you die. Besides, why are you harping about storm? It's a strawman here.


Anyways, splashing is not a good idea, and is very tough for a Rishadan Port deck. I would just recommend playing Deadguy Ale if you like powerful and hateful sideboard cards and feel they are necessary.
I don't really care if you, singular, dislike the splash. The boards were clamoring with people splashing Teeg not even a month ago, which means they found a low-risk acceptable splash. If those people were fine with said splash, they should consider the same approach to Elves now that Teeg is unnecessary.

[Bahra]

SFM MUs are fine to go Gobs as long as you do it early enough. I would wager you'd see Lemnear and Bryant talking about it in the TES thread. I mean this only for T1/T2 EtW and only with 10+/14+, and I typically think of storm as TES since they're more dangerous. You're correct that ANT won't side it in, but ANT is almost a turn slower by comparison and can't pull early Gobbos reliably enough anyway; TES still typically runs EtW main and it's not like the decks can't just wish for it T1 anyway.

If they have a guaranteed win (10+ gobbos T1 on the play, 14+ T1 on the draw or T2 on the play) there is no reason to risk losing by Massacre->ToA late-game when they can just watch you die. Besides, why are you harping about storm? It's a strawman here.


I don't really care if you, singular, dislike the splash. The boards were clamoring with people splashing Teeg not even a month ago, which means they found a low-risk acceptable splash. If those people were fine with said splash, they should consider the same approach to Elves now that Teeg is unnecessary.

You clearly have no idea what a strawman is and you also clearly have no idea what D&T is about. I suggest playing the deck before making inane suggestions and claims.

[hill_giant]

Bahra, I have a question for you: do you feel that the full playset of Revokers is indispensable? Reading about your sideboarding strategies, you seem to be siding them out a lot, even against decks where they have reasonable targets, like Jund, Shardless, and Lands (and I can see the reasoning behind that, with them being vanilla 2/1s and all). Couple that with the fact that they are mostly dead cards against popular decks like RUG, Omni-Tell, UR, etc., and not that exciting against Stoneblade variants either, I wonder whether playing 4 is really warranted. Sure, they are great against Miracles, Sneak and Show, and the mirror, plus some fringe stuff like Painter or MUD, and decent against Storm and Elves, but from the look of things, you're still expecting to side at least a few of them out more often than not... Is the 4-of really warranted here?

I disagree that revoker is "not that exciting" against jitte decks. I would also put storm in the list of decks that it's great against, as you usually get at least 2 extra turns out of it. I could imagine going to 3, but I really like having 4.

I don't consider it relevant that they're bad against delver decks that we're crushing even with awkward pikers in the main (UWR is the only delver matchup that's remotely close, and revoker is good there). The fact that it's awkward against omni is relevant, and perhaps that deck gets more popular with dig and no cruise.

[laklota101]

I piloted Death and Taxes at a side event in San Jose this weekend and ended up 5-0, taking first place in a tournament of around 30 people. I'm going to give a little report and some final thoughts at the end. The decklist is [here](http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-12-14-wqy-death-and-taxes-copy/).

**Round 1:** This Round was more or less a bye for me. I played an Opalesence deck that didn't fire either game one or two and the round ended in about five minutes for us. No sideboard from g1 to g2 because I never saw anything in his deck besides 2x leyline of the void and a leyline of sanctity.

**Round 2:** I played a small pox variant that unfortunately got smashed by the metagame choices I made to combat the rise of BUG.

**g1:** He had a strong play of t1 ritual into Lily on the play, but I bided my time with a t1 vial and discarded lands for the next few turns until I could vial in flickerwisp to reset lily and kill her. I stabilized around 5 life with SFM -> batterskull. with vial and the B-skull token he didn't have enough sacrifice mechanics and he scooped.

**Sides** - **Out:** 1x Mangara 1x SOTL 2x STP **In:** 2x Containment Priest 2x ET. It may seem odd to have sided in CP's and removed value creatures, but BGX has access to Golgari Charm and other -x/-x cards, and given the fact that D&T is heavily reliant on x/1's, I tried to remove that value wipe as much as possible.

**g2:** He is on the play with a significantly slower hand. He plays land go and I drop a t1 vial. He hymns me but only hits lands in my land heavy hand and my t2 is sfm -> batterskull and a mom vialed in on his end step. my t3 is double wasteland to keep him off lily mana. He misses a land drop and I put batterskull into play. He finds a tombstalker but a vial on 3 with a flickerwisp combat trick and a vialed in silverblade ends the game before he can stabilize.

**Round 3:** My first real challenge of the tournament came in the form of Painter Servant. The pilot knew what he was doing and grinded every game.

**g1:** Blindly keeping against an unknown deck I manage to keep the best hand. 2 StP 1 mom 1 thalia karakas+Plains and a revoker. After I see a t1 great furnace -> goblin welder I figure it must be Painter. I've never played against Painter servant but I know the basic combo so I swords the painter on t2 after he plays ancient city to hit 3 mana. I swords a second painter on his t3 and play revoker naming grindstone t4. With the vial I played t1 I start pulling flickerwisps and sfm and he scoops without the answer to revoker in hand.

**Sides - Out**: 3x Mirran Crusader **In:** 1 pithing needle 2 enlightened tutors. Being on the draw I feel like I should have probably utilized the RiP in hindsight because I ended up losing game 2 to some fancy graveyard play, but never having played painter I did't want to change my deck too radically.

**g2:** T1 welder+furnace. I felt like I had a very strong hand this game again with 2 STP 1 tutor and a revoker. Unfortunately I got burned by an early hand dump with his ensnaring bridge sideboard and the game turns into a 20 minute top deck affair of trying to find flickerwisp to bounce his bridge. I've got a Phyrexian Revoker on Grindstone for about 15 turns until he finally gets [Jaya](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=234707&type=card) and Goblin Welder out. He attempts to Weld my Revoker into my graveyard to pull out pithing needle. I am forced to attempt to give my revoker protection from blue due to the painter servant naming blue and in response he discards and blows up Revoker using Jaya and I scoop.

**Sides - Out:** 1 SOTL 1 Brimaz 1 Ghost Quarter** In:** 3 RiP. Ironically I never found the RiP in this game after realizing how easily I could win with them.

**g3:** Round went to time about 5 turns in, but thankfully I had my third very playable hand against his mull to 6. Multiple swords with an early mom/thalia/sfm -> batterskull help me finish the game on turn 4 after went to time.

**Round 4:** This was the matchup I had been waiting to see. The earlier pod of legacy looked to be almost 40-50% B/G/X decks and my three mirran crusaders were set to do work against them. Running into an experienced BUG player is what I expected, he won the dice roll and elected to be on the play.

**g1:** Seeing a turn 1 DRS made me giddy with Crusader+mom+vial in hand. My turn one vial led to a t2 hymn from my opponent, and continuing my trend of getting lucky from hymns two of my lands are discarded. He can't find an abrupt decay quickly enough and I land two moms and t2 and without a counter to crusader the game ends extraordinarily quickly.

**Sides - Out:** -1 SOTL -1 mangara -1 Ghost quarter -1 Thalia -1 Flickerwisp **In:** 3x RiP 2x Enlightened tutor. Perennially terrified of -x/-x abilities, I remove a few x/1's to prevent the horror of a perfectly timed plague or golgari charm.

**g2:** Game 2 starts off very poorly for me. He plays land go, I play mom which gets disfigured and then I am hymned. I get my thalia and a vial ripped which deprives me of a t2 creature and I am forced to play one of my two vials in hand. His t3 is an uncontested Lily which proves disastrous for me. On the plus boat He rips both of our hands down to nothing. I have a flickerwisp in hand that I hold back as long as I can, vialing it at the end of his turn and Killing his lily the turn before she ultimates. I begin to stabilize as his double DRS is alternately gaining him life and losing me life. I draw into a second flickerwisp but he topdecks a 7/8 goyf and I don't top deck STP to save me.

**g3:** This game is probably the best game of the tournament. Very back and forth, I get a t1 vial and an early mom+Thalia+karakas. I get an SFM+Batterskull out as well but he names human on an engineered plague blanking about a dozen cards in my deck. I lose both mom and Thalia but am I able to keep beating in with my batterskull. In my hand I have flickerwisp+mom+thalia+land. He hymns me and in response I flickerwisp targetting his engineered plague. His hymn rips thalia and the land, leaving me with MoM. He thought that I wanted him to name elemental so I could play Thalia and by hymning Thalia he named elemental killing my Flickerwisp. I had stalled on board from a TNN he played so the MoM in my hand was very necessary both to kill him and because I needed the lifegain off Batterskull to stay alive. This game went to time and I ended up killing him also on t4 of turns by having two moms out and giving my batterskull equipped with SoFaI protection from green and black to go through a goyf and TNN.

**Round 5:** For as exciting and intense as the last two rounds were, the final round was the exact opposite. I played a burn player and it was ugly.

**g1:** She wins the roll and kept a shaky hand. She had 3 lands in hand, but a vexing devil and goblin guide. unfortunately for her. the GG trigger draws me a land which draws me into an STP. after dropping me to 18 she drops me to a further 14 from Vexing Devil and 11 from a bolt. I swords the guide and my turn 2 is SFM into batterskull. Her t3 is a wash, she draws into lands and only has one burn left. She plays Eidolon of the Great Revel but its too late at this point and she scoops to batterskull lifegain.

**Sides - Out:** 3 mirran crusader 1 SOTL **In:** 1 COP:R 1 Absolute Law 2 Tutor. Fairly obvious choices for sides. 3 mana is too slow and SOTL is useless in this Matchup.

**g2:** Unfortunately a wash. She mulls two no land hands then a 5 land hand. I have Absolute law in hand and I tutor for COPR and she scoops quickly.

Final score 5-0-0

Final Thoughts. At a larger tournament I think I would play more Rishadan Ports and less Ghost Quarters, but Ghost Quarter is so unbelievably strong against the greedy land base meta with Jeskai Delver, Stoneblade, Deathblade, and the resurgence of all things BUG. Mirran Crusader is never a bad card. It ranges from okay to game winning. I think I'll drop down to two but they are so back breaking against rock its hard to imagine not playing it in multiples.

[cursecatcher]

Hey everyone, my name is Greg Schafer and I got 12th place at the SCG Open this past weekend in Indy. I wanted to post a reflection on the weekend, as this forum has definitely helped me improve significantly as a Death and Taxes pilot since picking up the deck about 15 months ago.

For the decklist, I knew that I needed to change significantly from what I was playing pre-ban. I didn't want Spirit of the Lab or Brimaz, and I did want Mirran Crusader and Wilt-Leaf Liege. I actually wound up using Bahra's from last weekend (listed in his recent tournament report), though I decided against the 4 Flagstones in favor of more basic Plains. It's hard for me to say if I think more flagstones would be better since I never played against Miracles, and only sided in Cataclysm once (winning before casting it). The range of decks I played against was drastically different than what was running around pre-ban, and I think this decklist was very well situated for how things have changed. The list can be found here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79362

On the weekend I played against these matchups:

3-0 vs RUG Delver (including Jadine Klomparens, whom I found to be skilled and a generally cool person to meet)

Just like things were before cruise, this matchup is super favorable. That said, I had a very close call in a game 3 on day 2 against an opponent who stuck a sulfuric vortex on t3 and started launching burn at my face, but fortunately he didn't find the Stifle he needed to stop Mangara. The other highlight I have from this matchup was getting to ratchet bomb away 2 flipped delvers against Jadine. That one felt pretty great. I liked the boarding configuration here well enough:

-4 revoker
+2 rest in peace
+1 council's judgment
+1 ratchet bomb

1-1 vs BUG Delver (beat Noah Cohen, lost to Kent Ketter)

I feel favored in this matchup, but find it important to win game 1 since they are generally bringing in a lot of hate games 2 and 3. Mirran Crusader is obviously big boss, but I find Liliana can still dominate some percentage of games, unfortunately. Toxic Deluge gives them outs to crusader post-board as well, so not overcommitting is very important. Sadly, Kent drew a lot of sideboard removal in game 3 to supplement his early Lily, and I couldn't get out from under it. Perhaps I should have kept in 1-2 revokers here to stop Lily, but that just opens you up further to golgari charm and the like. If I had drawn a Wilt-Leaf at any point, I think I could've still gotten out of it.

-4 revoker
+2 rest in peace
+2 wilt-leaf liege

1-0 vs Shardless Bug

Mirran Crusader and Wilt-Leaf Liege dominated this match, and the mana denial is more relevant here than against BUG Delver since their curve is higher. I don't think this matchup is super in our favor, but its not bad, and I happened to draw well here.

-4 revoker
+2 rest in peace
+2 wilt-leaf liege

1-0 vs Junk Maverick

This match was against Tom Herzog in round 15. I knew he is well-known for playing maverick, a matchup I think is overall quite close (better for DnT game 1 before they get sideboard cards like Zealous Persecution). A friend of mine plays this deck locally, so I've had a lot of good practice in the matchup (shoutout to Greg Pino). Fortunately for me, my draws here were just more explosive than his, thanks to Vial. Flickerwisps did some filthy things in this matchup, mostly involving allowing me to get the first hit in with equipment in both games. For boarding, Thalia is bad and I think getting more threat dense is important, so:

-4 thalia
+2 council's judgment
+2 wilt-leaf liege (can help protect against ZP)

2-0 vs Sneak and Show

Would've loved to have played against this matchup more than I did, but what can you do. I don't think this matchup is as overwhelmingly favorable as people often say it is, but its obviously quite favorable nevertheless. Getting SoFai as the first equipment to protect Revoker/Thalia/Containment from Pyroclasm is important. Not sure if 0-2 CJudgment is best here after board, but I thought 1 would be nice to pick off a resolved Sneak Attack.

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Jitte
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Containment Priest
+1 Council's Judgment
+2 Ethersworn Canonist

1-0 vs Junk Nic Fit

This was a weird match early in day 1 where my opponent didn't get to play much magic due to seemingly awkward draws. Mirran Crusader ended things very quickly. I didn't see much game 1 except that he was GB, and had Decay. This led me to board in Cataclysm, but I don't remember exactly what else I brought in or took out, since I didn't have much info to go on.

0-1 vs Infect (Zachary Koch, who went on to make top 8)

I actually won game 1 here, thanks to sticking both Serra Avengers along with a two Mother of Runes and multiple Swords to Plowshares. Game 2 he killed me turn 3 with blighted agent. Game 3 was super close and interesting. I stuck Jitte and ate most of his board, but I couldn't get to his Inkmoth in time due to Pendelhaven. He then stuck a pithing needle on Jitte, so I felt in trouble. All this time I was stuck on 2 lands with no Vial, so sequencing was everything for me. He had only 1 card left in hand, and his Inkmoth + Pendelhaven clock, but I had Port + Plains (with Swords in hand). I didn't have much clock, only 4 per turn with him at 9 life. I attack him down to 5, with the plan of either porting or swords'ing his inkmoth and trying to race. I decided to Port after he activated, and perhaps this was a punt, since he had Teferi's Response, killing my Port and drawing him 2 cards. Next turn I swing back and put him to 1 life, still with Swords in hand for the inkmoth. He has found Dispel and Daze though, off his Response, so I die. If I had gotten my Swords countered by Teferi's Response, I would've still had the Port which he couldn't interact with, and presumably won the game. I think this game might've exposed my relative inexperience in this matchup, sadly. Hopefully I do better next time. If you guys have any tips for playing against Infect, I'd love to hear them.

-1 batterskull
-1 mangara
+1 pithing needle
+1 ratchet bomb

2-2 vs Elves (lost to Phil Silberman and eventual top 8'er Christopher Hall; beat top 8'er Matt Hoey)

Sadly, I played against Elves 4 times in this event, including 3 times on day 1. Mirran Crusader was a godsend here, however. In game 3 against Hoey, putting Jitte on Crusader let me easily race his Progenitus. I really enjoy playing against Hoey because we always have good banter and I consider him a great competitor, making this win all the more satisfying.

Unfortunately, Elves was the deck I played against more than any other. Obviously the matchup is bad, but Mirran Crusader being back in the deck really does help a ton. As does the 4th Revoker in fact, since pinning down any number of their creatures can be super relevant given different board states. I had an unfortunate situation against Phil Silberman where I didn't draw a 3rd land for about the first ten turns of the game. If it had come sooner, I could've Needle and Revoker'ed Symbiote in the same turn, preventing him from ravaging my artifact heavy draw with his Rec Sage. Unfortunately my 3rd land was too slow coming, and I couldn't put up sufficient pressure.

I am not sure how much I like E Tutor in this matchup, and didn't even wind up drawing it at all. This is how I boarded, though:

+2 E Tutor
+1 containment priest
+1 ratchet bomb
+2 canonist
+1 needle

-4 thalia
-2 mangara
-1 avenger

I wound up boarding in tutor against only Elves on the weekend, but I think that is merely a function of simply not playing against Storm or Dredge ever. That said, I've never really LOVED tutor, and could certainly see trimming down to 1 copy in favor of another containment priest, or perhaps grafdigger's cage. Turn 1 mom, into turn 2 canonist or priest can really do a number on them.

Take-away:
Death and Taxes is in a great spot at the moment, illustrated by 9 copies making day 2 at this tournament (second only to Elves' 11 copies). Elves being so popular isn't ideal for us, but the matchup is more winnable than most people think, especially with another Containment Priest in the board I'm thinking.

Elves doing so well should lead to an increase in golgari charm and toxic deluge type effects, so things might get a bit tougher for us in the weeks ahead. Legacy has a nice way of balancing itself out though, and Death and Taxes is surprisingly capable of molding itself to changing metagames.

Long Live Thraben.

[frenadol]

In reference to the green splash, I personally never understood the appeal of running maindeck Gaddock Teeg. Card is too narrow to have a big effect, especially now that TC is banned. Green is useful at most for cards like Choke, or Qasali Pridemage which is a creature I liked a lot when Revoker didn't have as much value and the main targets were equipment you would rather destroy anyways. But I find it hard to justify running green post bannings.

I think that card choices are too skewed towards hypotethicals when it comes to chhosing for this deck, because we have no card selection. You can't add one of this or two of that "for this matchup or this situation". The odds are skewed against you. Cards need to have broad applications and be useful and resilient against a wide array of opponent lines of play to disrupt you. Neither of which Teeg is of any use. Teeg is good against very specific cards that the opponent most likely isn't even playing in his deck at any given moment.

I personally think the best cards green provides are all mainly sideboard cards: Choke (singleton), Sylvan Library (singleton) and Qasali Pridemage (can be maindecked if you face a lot of stoneblade, otherwise sideboard). Teeg is actually the card I liked the least, because he does so damn little and doesn't advance the board in any manner.

The green splash manabase isn't terrible, but could certainly be better, and it's certainly more vulnerable than pure white. You're sacrificing a lot in order to maindeck a sideboard card.

[hill_giant]

In reference to the green splash, I personally never understood the appeal of running maindeck Gaddock Teeg. Card is too narrow to have a big effect, especially now that TC is banned. Green is useful at most for cards like Choke, or Qasali Pridemage which is a creature I liked a lot when Revoker didn't have as much value and the main targets were equipment you would rather destroy anyways. But I find it hard to justify running green post bannings.

I think that card choices are too skewed towards hypotethicals when it comes to chhosing for this deck, because we have no card selection. You can't add one of this or two of that "for this matchup or this situation". The odds are skewed against you. Cards need to have broad applications and be useful and resilient against a wide array of opponent lines of play to disrupt you. Neither of which Teeg is of any use. Teeg is good against very specific cards that the opponent most likely isn't even playing in his deck at any given moment.

I personally think the best cards green provides are all mainly sideboard cards: Choke (singleton), Sylvan Library (singleton) and Qasali Pridemage (can be maindecked if you face a lot of stoneblade, otherwise sideboard). Teeg is actually the card I liked the least, because he does so damn little and doesn't advance the board in any manner.

The green splash manabase isn't terrible, but could certainly be better, and it's certainly more vulnerable than pure white. You're sacrificing a lot in order to maindeck a sideboard card.

While I do agree with you that splashing green is a relevant cost for a card that's very matchup specific, literally every loss I picked up last weekend in indy was to a deck where teeg is good. I lost twice to storm (net 2-2 on the weekend; it was everywhere), once to omni, and once to 2 quick NOs from elves. I beat the other 8 decks I played (2 uwr delver, 1 bug delver, 1 ur delver, 1 burn, 1 mav, 1 mirror, 1 reanimator), and r15 was an obvious ID. There wasn't much miracles in the room, but teeg is one of the best cards you can possibly have against them. I don't know if it's actually worth it (I haven't really tested it), but as long as there aren't many stifles or moons running around, the cost to the mana base isn't actually that big. You can still play all the value lands and the same number of white sources, and it's not like we were playing around wasteland by running exclusively on basics anyways.

[tescrin]

In response to the problem Elves MU this is our conversation.

You guys were experimenting with Teeg like.. a month ago? Why not experiment with *the eensiest* black or red splash and nail them with Persecution after Persecution (or E.Plague.) You could also do the same with a red splash for Sudden Demise, which also happens to cover Storm's main out to D&T (gobbos.)


How is storm's main out to D&T goblins? Empty the Warrens is absolutely horrible against D&T and ANT will never side it in against a stoneforge creature deck like ours. Sounds like you're just trying to sell Sudden Demise, which is completely unreasonable since it's really bad in D&T.


If they have a guaranteed win (10+ gobbos T1 on the play, 14+ T1 on the draw or T2 on the play) there is no reason to risk losing by Massacre->ToA late-game when they can just watch you die. Besides, why are you harping about storm? It's a strawman here.



You clearly have no idea what a strawman is and you also clearly have no idea what D&T is about.

Strawman argument: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)
The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition and then to refute or defeat that false argument instead of the original proposition.

Assumptions:
-There is a problem with Elves
-People were splashing for Teeg
-Teeg is no longer necessary
Conclusion:
-Use the splashed lands to deal with Elves instead

Your argument:
"Those cards aren't even good against storm." <- we're not actually talking about storm. Storm was a side "hey, it has application elsewhere" argument, unrelated to whether or not the splash would work against Elves.

QED.


There's no point in arguing about it. You were not only wrong twice but my comments were directed towards those who were splashing anyway. If they were splashing green, they could swap the green 1-for-1 and the answers 1-for-1 for relevant answers to a different problem deck. I really couldn't give an ass about what you have to say on a topic directed towards other players. You want to criticize the splash; criticize *them.* I'm just telling them the obvious "you were splashing anyway, just change the splash."

[Bahra]

Hey everyone, my name is Greg Schafer and I got 12th place at the SCG Open this past weekend in Indy. I wanted to post a reflection on the weekend, as this forum has definitely helped me improve significantly as a Death and Taxes pilot since picking up the deck about 15 months ago.

Take-away:
Death and Taxes is in a great spot at the moment, illustrated by 9 copies making day 2 at this tournament (second only to Elves' 11 copies). Elves being so popular isn't ideal for us, but the matchup is more winnable than most people think, especially with another Containment Priest in the board I'm thinking.

Elves doing so well should lead to an increase in golgari charm and toxic deluge type effects, so things might get a bit tougher for us in the weeks ahead. Legacy has a nice way of balancing itself out though, and Death and Taxes is surprisingly capable of molding itself to changing metagames.

Long Live Thraben.

Grats on the finish Greg!

2-2 vs. Elves is quite good. Although elves players are way worse in paper than they are on modo, my record against irl elves opponents is also way better than online (where you face guys like Julian Knab and Magnus Lantto all the time) :laugh:

I wouldn't board in enlightened tutor vs. elves because they're either gonna try to grind through you with a flurry of decays (where the two for 1 is a big deal) or they're gonna combo you quickly where the tutor is just too slow.

I'm also warming up to the idea of maybe cutting 1 of the tutors, but I think I definitely want at least 1. So I guess the 15th card should be another Containment Priest, depends on the expected meta though. But with the resurgence of elves we definitely could use more tools for the match up.

[laklota101]

I'm also warming up to the idea of maybe cutting 1 of the tutors, but I think I definitely want at least 1. So I guess the 15th card should be another Containment Priest, depends on the expected meta though. But with the resurgence of elves we definitely could use more tools for the match up.
Doesn't that seem sort of insane? E-tutor essentially makes most of your sboard and toolbox cards at least a 3 of after sideboard. If I'm playing burn the fact that I essentially have 4 cards which will net me a win is huge (2x tutor 1x copr 1x absolute law) and if I'm playing a deck like painter servant it means I have 7 chances to lock down his grindstone (4x revoker 2x tutor 1x pithing needle).

It seems to me that if you're only going to play one tutor you might as well play none at all, because the match ups where you want a tutor you absolutely need the tutor. Especially in the new era of BUG the benefit tutoring for RiP or Revoker to blank goyf/Lily cannot be overstated. I can understand cutting tutor if you're playing a more traditional armageddon/catacylsm sideboard, but I don't think that sideboard method is capable of addressing the wide variety of archetypes that the legacy meta has shifted towards since the T.C ban.

Also, as an aside. I wrote about my 5-0 tournament on the last page playing D&T. I ran Order of Whiteclay although I never found it in the 12 games I played. However in testing this card proved to be absolute bomb. capable of blocking a ton of creatures safely, with psuedo conditional vigilance, and the threat of infinite recursion against BUG decks, I could see this card gaining traction with the deck. Without STP all our creatures can be returned repeatedly. At the very least it forces out an abrupt, normally it replaces itself with either mom/thalia/flicker, best case it gets a jitte attached and swings freely and recurs all your creatures creating an unwinnable board state for the other fair decks.

[razvan]

I read your list 4 times and I missed Order of Whiteclay every single time. PBCAK indeed.

My list has to (HAS TO) include 1 Fiend Hunter. If I can find a spot for this thing, I will at least give it a shot, see what sort of impact it has.

[Bahra]

There's no point in arguing about it. You were not only wrong twice but my comments were directed towards those who were splashing anyway. If they were splashing green, they could swap the green 1-for-1 and the answers 1-for-1 for relevant answers to a different problem deck. I really couldn't give an ass about what you have to say on a topic directed towards other players. You want to criticize the splash; criticize *them.* I'm just telling them the obvious "you were splashing anyway, just change the splash."

So there's no point in arguing but you can't leave it alone anyways? You misunderstand the term "strawman" no matter how nicely you quote wikipedia and how nicely you misquote me.

The green splash is far more powerful and versatile so your suggestions and claims stay inane.

[Bahra]

Doesn't that seem sort of insane? E-tutor essentially makes most of your sboard and toolbox cards at least a 3 of after sideboard. If I'm playing burn the fact that I essentially have 4 cards which will net me a win is huge (2x tutor 1x copr 1x absolute law) and if I'm playing a deck like painter servant it means I have 7 chances to lock down his grindstone (4x revoker 2x tutor 1x pithing needle).

It seems to me that if you're only going to play one tutor you might as well play none at all, because the match ups where you want a tutor you absolutely need the tutor. Especially in the new era of BUG the benefit tutoring for RiP or Revoker to blank goyf/Lily cannot be overstated. I can understand cutting tutor if you're playing a more traditional armageddon/catacylsm sideboard, but I don't think that sideboard method is capable of addressing the wide variety of archetypes that the legacy meta has shifted towards since the T.C ban.



Don't you think "insane" is a little bit strong use of language? :really:


It seems to me that if you're only going to play one tutor you might as well play none at all

Please explain how this makes any sense. When I moved from playing a board full of powerful one ofs, like Absolute Law, Circle of Protection: Red, Pithing Needle etc. To only playing a few of those cards, the tutor lost a lot of value and it might be better to play a card instead, that doesn't require a turn, 1 extra mana and an extra card to set up. There's many downsides to playing Enlightened Tutor so it has to really be worth it, and that requires a specific meta as well as powerful, game winning sideboard cards to tutor for.

It also seems that you are misevaluating your cards for the BUG match up, as Enlightened Tutor is in no way an acceptable sideboard card vs. BUG and Phyrexian Revoker is NOT something you want in your deck after board.

You write in a very dramatic and overzealous way considering your seemingly lacking experience with the deck. No offense intended.

[Bahra]

Bahra, I have a question for you: do you feel that the full playset of Revokers is indispensable? Reading about your sideboarding strategies, you seem to be siding them out a lot, even against decks where they have reasonable targets, like Jund, Shardless, and Lands (and I can see the reasoning behind that, with them being vanilla 2/1s and all). Couple that with the fact that they are mostly dead cards against popular decks like RUG, Omni-Tell, UR, etc., and not that exciting against Stoneblade variants either, I wonder whether playing 4 is really warranted. Sure, they are great against Miracles, Sneak and Show, and the mirror, plus some fringe stuff like Painter or MUD, and decent against Storm and Elves, but from the look of things, you're still expecting to side at least a few of them out more often than not... Is the 4-of really warranted here?

I think about this every time I side 4x out. But it is so amazing in so many match ups still, and in game 1s it is almost always good, against BUG and Jund it is powerful in game 1 but a huge liability in post board games.

I don't think I ever side out a few of them, I either have 4 or 0 after board. If they have hate that makes my Revokers a liability (like Golgari Charm and Ancient Grudge that I can't fight with Wilt-Leaf Liege) then I will side them all out.

[laklota101]

If you're playing storm, or elves, or another combo deck. You generally have at best 3 turns to set up a board that stalls them. Without playing counters or hand disruption, you expect playing one of's in a sideboard with little ability to tutor for is going to get you somewhere?

On Phyrexian Revoker in post sideboard against BUG, I prefer him in certain BUG MU's. I keep him bug control because even preventing lily or DRS from a couple turns of activating can be the difference in a game. Especially if you're on the play. a turn two thalia with a turn three revoker chokes out BUG unless the wipe is already in hand. My list that I won with plays three mirran crusaders. I feel comfortable keeping in x/1's because I know each and every mirran crusader must be met with a board wipe unless they pull their 1 of TNN. As for tutor, in BUG control the main threat I face is the inevitable 6/7 tarmogoyf 15 or so turns into the game when we devolve to top decking. being able to tutor for an early RiP is so incredibly strong against tarmogoyf/DTT/DRS I can't really imagine not playing tutor+RiP for the sideboard match.

Sorry for hyperbolic speech, I have a tendency to fall into a sort of grandiose rheotoric when I strongly believe something. I've been playing deck for about a year know, never played in a main event legacy tournament, but I've won a few side legacy tournaments at major events.

[frenadol]

I never liked running more than one Tutor in the sideboard because you never want to see more than one in your hand. There's a lot of overlap already in the cards you side in, regardless of being all different singletons, so there will be some you draw naturally and another you might want to tutor up with ET. But drawing two ET is such a card disadvantage that even in an ANT matchup it will be felt, not to mention the fact that the second copy is taking up space in the sideboard that would otherwise be dedicated to an actual sideboard card.

See, you're playing for example against BUG Delver. How many cards will you side in? Will you side in 2 E Tutors if you had them? I wouldn't, that's suicide. You already have 2 RiPs and 2 WLL, those are perfectly serviceable cards that can take the place of your Revokers. Making more space in the maindeck for another Tutor is poor sideboarding unless you're playing against a really fast combo meta, which won't happen outside MODO. Second Tutor is only useful against combo decks and maybe Burn, and even in those cases it's questionable.

Sideboard singletons won't win you any game by themselves. It will always come down to tight play and not expose yourself to a sweeper. Death and Taxes isn't a deck of "I will bank on drawing this sideboard card to win". E Tutor and the sideboard stuff are little pluses, the maindeck will always be the main force, and those cards will always be way more useful in any matchup, even in very unintuitive ones like Dredge. Even against combo you should prioritize having a good curve and opening rather than banking on having silver bullets in your starting hand.

Revoker is a perfect example of a game 1 card. In game 1 it's very useful, because the opponent won't have as much removal to get rid of it because holy damn, this little bugger IS vulnerable. It dies to practically everything the opponent might want to sideboard against us. Even if it's still useful against cards like Liliana and DRS, against black decks I usually just get rid of them because they're not gonna stick and also have zero offensive pressure if they do.

[laklota101]

I totally understand that mentality for Tutor. I have drawn both after sideboard and it can often be annoying and feel like unnecessary card dsadvantage. However, those times seem to be few and far apart, I happily take that chance knowing I have a much higher chance of drawing exactly what I need. I agree that the main deck of D&T is strong in almost every matchup with SB cards being only a bonus. However if I can raise my chances of finding a specific card by 20-30% then I think its well worth the essentially 13 card sideboard.

I mean yes obviously the revokers come out against BUG delver. more counter magic means if they don't want it to resolve they don't have to and if I rely on it I can get burned for it. so -4 revoker -1 SOTL -1 Plains +2 RiP +2 WLL +2 EL. I don't think its even remotely questionable to want two tutors for fast combo. You need pithing needle against show and tell, you need pithing needle against painter, you need pithing needle against elves. We talk about having trouble against elves and tutor is our answer, having a more consistent EC/Needle draw is paramount to our success in the match up.

As another aside, has anyone tested black splash for ZP? One or Two scrublands with a couple fetches seems strong in not only both fighting elves and delver, but also protecting from sideboard g-charms.
Something like:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/03-02-15-death-and-taxes-copy-copy/

[Luca Grease]

a few random points in no particular order:

Major props to Gregory for the result! Nice report by the way...

Phyrexian Revokers: to whomever suggested tutoring for them against BUG, this is just a terrible idea. Revokers are vulnerable to every removal/sweeper spell they run, and tutoring for one is just begging to get 2-for-1'd, or worse, in a grindy matchup that often verges on card advantage. Not to mention the tempo loss.
As for the 4-of, discussion, Bahra's answer actually kind of reinforces my theory of only wanting 3 in the main (and none in the board). I am currently trying the Restoration Angel list (1 extra land - Dust Bowl, 4 Flagstones, and 2 Restos instead of Avengers), so I needed to cut a creature anyway, and Revoker seemed like the most logical choice. Even if I went back to the 26 creature version, I'd sooner add a singleton SoTL than the 4th Revoker, I think.

The green splash and other splashes: the point of the green splash was that Gaddock Teeg was actually blanking 7+ cards (often the most powerful ones) in 90% of the top tier decks during the Treasure Cruise days, to the point where it became an extremely powerful maindeck card. Also, Stifle and Wasteland were at an all-time low, minimizing the risk to the manabase. With Treasure Cruise gone, Gaddock Teeg went back to being a sideboard card, stifle and wasteland experienced a resurgence, and people mostly decided that the splash was not worth it anymore.
Splashing for another color for sideboard answers to just 1 or 2 problematic decks is very different from adding a maindeck card that hits 90% of the field hard. That's why you can't compare the TC-era green splash to splashing black for ZP against Elves.

Delver decks being overwhelmingly favorable MUs: I would be a little more cautious here. Favorable: yes, for the most part. But not a cakewalk by any means. I've often seen people claiming that UR Delver (without TC) is the most favorable of them all. My experience suggests otherwise. DnT and UR are the only legacy decks I own, and I've tested the matchup quite a bit, playing both sides. Much like against BUG Delver, winning game 1 (in which we should be favored) is critical, as we can usually win only 1 postboard game. Sulfuric Vortex, Smash to Smithereens, Pithing Needle, and plenty of burn spells mean that there is no safe route to victory, and that we'll often get down to single digits very quickly and will be forced to make a risky play and just hope they don't have it/rip it.

Shaving a tutor: the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of going down to only 1 ET in favor of the second Containment Priest. I am also willing to concede that 2 Mirran Crusaders are probably a better choice than a 1/1 split with Brimaz in the current meta, especially since I'm already running Resto. Brimaz tokens just end up bouncing against a DRS, SFM or Swiftspear more often than not, and they obviously almost never survive when he blocks. Brimaz is better against Jund, but there doesn't seem to be too much of that, and Mirran just crushes BUG.

Anyways, I'm going to a pretty large tournament (200+ players) on Sunday, and I really appreciate all the feedback and info I get from you guys, especially since I don't get the chance to test a lot. Will let you know how it goes!

[Bahra]

I totally understand that mentality for Tutor. I have drawn both after sideboard and it can often be annoying and feel like unnecessary card dsadvantage. However, those times seem to be few and far apart, I happily take that chance knowing I have a much higher chance of drawing exactly what I need. I agree that the main deck of D&T is strong in almost every matchup with SB cards being only a bonus. However if I can raise my chances of finding a specific card by 20-30% then I think its well worth the essentially 13 card sideboard.

I mean yes obviously the revokers come out against BUG delver. more counter magic means if they don't want it to resolve they don't have to and if I rely on it I can get burned for it. so -4 revoker -1 SOTL -1 Plains +2 RiP +2 WLL +2 EL. I don't think its even remotely questionable to want two tutors for fast combo. You need pithing needle against show and tell, you need pithing needle against painter, you need pithing needle against elves. We talk about having trouble against elves and tutor is our answer, having a more consistent EC/Needle draw is paramount to our success in the match up.

As another aside, has anyone tested black splash for ZP? One or Two scrublands with a couple fetches seems strong in not only both fighting elves and delver, but also protecting from sideboard g-charms.
Something like:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/03-02-15-death-and-taxes-copy-copy/

Would you bring in Zealous Persecution against BUG Delver and Jund? I sure wouldn't, especially not when you're playing Thalia and basically tapping out every turn. Fighting Golgari Charm with a do 2 mana do nothing instant does not seem like a good idea. And splashing to improve 1 match up slightly, while making every other match up worse, seems pretty bad.

[laklota101]

I think you're right. I did a large amount of testing with ZP yesterday and it is good when its good, but so often it feels detrimental. There just has to be a better way to deal with elves, even something as silly as a plateau for tremor or something sideboard.

[frenadol]

If you REALLY want a -1/-1 effect that doesn't affect you (well, just the Revokers), Holy Light is the most sensible choice. But again, I don't think there's a need for such an effect in the 75.

[razvan]

I don't have the experience people have with DnT, but every time I tried splashing a color, the manabase went straight to hell. I already mulligan more than any other deck because of the 8 non-color making lands.

Anyway, do you people(z) find that you mulligan with this deck more than with most other decks? Even just the straight white version? I should have kept track, but I definitely went to 5 cards more times with DnT than any non-dredge deck.

Meh, maybe it's just a small sample size (several hundred games, instead of the thousands most people have) and a bad streak.

[hill_giant]

I don't have the experience people have with DnT, but every time I tried splashing a color, the manabase went straight to hell. I already mulligan more than any other deck because of the 8 non-color making lands.

Anyway, do you people(z) find that you mulligan with this deck more than with most other decks? Even just the straight white version? I should have kept track, but I definitely went to 5 cards more times with DnT than any non-dredge deck.

Meh, maybe it's just a small sample size (several hundred games, instead of the thousands most people have) and a bad streak.

I do mulligan a lot, but the deck is more than capable of winning with 5 cards (or even 4 or 3 in some matchups). If your splash decreases your white mana count, you're doing something wrong. A splash should just replace some basics with fetches/duals, which will make you softer to mana disruption, but shouldn't significantly impact your mulligans unless you're terrified of stifle. 8 colorless lands aren't free, or else everyone would do it.

[Luca Grease]

I do mulligan a lot with this deck, to the point where I consider myself quite lucky if I don't lose at least one round in a tournament due to starting with a severely handicapped hand. That, and drawing plains after plains when you desperately need action, are probably the two main weaknesses of the deck, in my opinion...

I guess that's just the nature of not playing blue. With a good hand, you'll have an advantage over blue decks due to the fact that you won't waste time durdling around with cantrips, but you'll just expose yourself to the risk of your deck not cooperating that much more. One of the most frustrating experiences in my magic career was missing top 16 in the largest tournament I have ever been to due to not drawing the second land that would have let me equip my Thalia with Jitte and kill my opponent's DRS (he was also left landless after a wasteland exchange) for 6 straight turns. He eventually drew a land and a ponder, cantripped out of it, and won. Bleargh

[Fry]

I have very rarely had problems with mulliganing and I have people tell me I don't play enough lands (only 21) and that I shouldn't play the full set of Karakas, but there's a trade off. Doing it this way I have a slightly lower average CMC than most, but depend more on AEther Vial.

My list
Main Board:
4x Flickerwisp
4x Leonin Arbiter
2x Mangara of Corondor
3x Mirran Crusader
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x AEther Vial
1x Batterskull
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of War and Peace
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
9x Plains

Sideboard:
3x Burrenton Forge-Tender
3x Containment Priest
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Leonin Relic-Warder
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

[Bahra]

I don't mulligan that much. There's only 1 color in the deck, the Æther Vials fix a ton of stuff and having 12 1-mana spells, most hands are just keepable. I also keep 1 landers all the time, and I think that's perfectly justifiable considering that we're a pretty land heavy deck compared to most legacy decks. And Wasteland actually casts most of our spells in this deck, as opposed to in decks like RUG Delver and BUG Delver that are playing Wastelands in the spell slot.

[frenadol]

I generally don't mulligan unless I get a terrible hand or one that doesn't do anything against combo. The lists I run don't suffer as much from mana flood so even if I get a hand like Vial SFM and 5 lands it's good enough for fair matchups and slow ass decks like Miracles. As long as you have a land (as Bahra said, one landers are perfectly fine, especially on the draw), some kind of 2 drop and your opponent isn't going to combo you out in turn 2 you'll be fine.

In a 5 round tournament plus top8 for example I'd usually mulligan 3-4 times, including combo matchups. That's way less than I do with other decks like Miracles or Patriot, which can be counterintuitive because those blue decks all run pretty efficient card selection.

[Finn]

Eh, I dunno. I lost my win and in for SCG Orlando on a goodlookin 1 lander when my opponent FoWd my Vial. I eventually got land but I had lost a few turns. It set me back enough to lose a match I should have won if less greedy.

You have to consider your opponent when doing 1 land hands. And don't sit there thinking about it. You will forecast your dilemma.

[Bahra]

Eh, I dunno. I lost my win and in for SCG Orlando on a goodlookin 1 lander when my opponent FoWd my Vial. I eventually got land but I had lost a few turns. It set me back enough to lose a match I should have won if less greedy.

You have to consider your opponent when doing 1 land hands. And don't sit there thinking about it. You will forecast your dilemma.

Yes, knowing which hands to keep and which not to keep instantly is very important. I look at my hand for usually about 1 second before I keep or mulligan. And that way my opponent never knows if it is a close keep or not, usually they suspect that it was a snap keep, because that's what it looks like.



So if anyone here follows the Salvation thread, you might've seen the new version of D&T that I've come up with. I suggest you look at my post on page 456 on the salvation thread since I don't want to double post. But I've played 1 daily with the deck so far and I 3-1'd that, it is in early testing though and I am happy so far. The deck is very different from the usual D&T lists, I am playing main deck Spellskite and Ensnaring Bridge for example.

Here's the list I played in the daily: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/263098#online

Would be pleased to hear opinions and even results from your own playtesting if you'd like to try this version out.

[Fuzzers]

For those of you who like to run things like Disenchant and Seal of Cleansing in the sideboard I think I've found better tech, and I haven't seen anyone bring it up yet.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376238

{1}{W}{W}
Act of Authority

Enchantment

When Act of Authority enters the battlefield, you may exile target artifact or enchantment.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may exile target artifact or enchantment. If you do, its controller gains control of Act of Authority.

This card is insane. For one mana more you get artifact/enchantment removal that exiles instead of destroys(looking at you welder), and you get to keep it for a second activation whenever you need it(which can't be revoked or needled). The flickerwisp interaction here is beautiful, like with most cards in the deck. Cast, exile. Upkeep, exile again, cast wisp to regain control of Act of Authority on your end step, exiling a third artifact or enchantment when it returns, and keep it on your side of the board afterward. I had a mirror match tonight where it hit two equipment and a revoker my opponent controlled in two turns, leaving me with this enchantment and wisp in play against nothing.

I think it might be too niche for some people who aren't as worried about artifact/enchantment heavy decks, and there's a good argument for manriki instead if you're only worried about equipment(I'm running both), but if you like this effect I think it's the best thing available to us. It's disgustingly good in the mirror, and I'm running a tutor board so I love it for that too.


.

[Finn]

I have used this. It is only good if you do not have any artifacts or enchantments yourself. And it is painfully slow.

[Fry]

I use Leonin Relic-Warder, but I have used a singleton Abolish from time to time.

[echofish]

Anyone thought about cutting Stoneforge Mystic? I know it may sound insane, but she doesn't really do anything other then fetching equipments. She doesn't provide any disruption by her self. Also it takes 3 turns to get an active sword, while also taking up mana so we can't port and maybe not waste. Wouldn't Leonin Arbiter, Spirit of the Lab, Aven Mindcensor or any other creature just be better?

Shouldn't we abuse Spirit of the Lab more? We have a real handicap for not playing cantrips and just rely on topdecks.

[Luca Grease]

@Ecofish: Stoneforge Mystic provides some much needed bite and raw power to the deck, and a completely different angle of attack that complements the mana denial/prison one. There are all kinds of situations where the deck would just crumble without access to her. Even though Thalia is the posterchild of our deck, I consider SFM to be just as vital. We are probably the legacy deck that can make best use of her due to our threat density, it would be borderline insane not to run her considering the power level of the card.

There were some Mystic-less lists going all in on the denial plan with Leonin Arbiter and Ghost Quarter, I suggest you dig up those if you're interested. They might work in a very specific meta, but in a larger field, the more traditional lists is where you want to be. Stoneforge Mystic simply wins games, and, believe it or not, some decks just don't care about Spirit of the Labyrinth and co.